Question on Romans 12:20

[Pressing-On]

I am seeing three separate views on this passage. My question, which one is right?

Two translations:

Romans 2:19-20 “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Quoted from Proverbs 25:21-22 “If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

The New Living Translation has it this way, and the ONLY translation that has added the word “shame” to the passage: “Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God. For the Scriptures say, "I will take revenge; I will pay them back," says the LORD. Instead, "If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals of shame on their heads."

Shame in the Greek - “disgrace and/or dishonesty”.

We would then be saying- "...In doing this, you will heap burning coals of disgrace on their heads." Can't see that being right.

Of course, in the Webster’s, which is a place I never go to study the Bible and appears to be where the definition for the NLT is coming from, it defines Shame as – “NOUN - a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior."

I have read through several Commentaries. The only agreement they have is that the meaning is obscure. They then go on to publish what they believe the verse to be saying.

Interpretation 1:

I understand that many side with the meaning to be – extending your hand of help to the enemy, you then put him in a place of shame to reflect on their evil actions toward you in order to feel remorse and to possibly repent. Whether they do or not, God rewards you for trying.

I acknowledge that David’s kindness to Saul softened his heart on a couple of occasions. (I Samuel 24:1-22; 26:1-15)

Interpretation 2:

Some have said it is a “clever” use to refer to “coals of fire” as relating to an eastern practice of carrying things on one’s head. If someone’s fire went out, a friend or neighbor would give him coals to relight his fire, heaping them in a pan on his head, i.e., feeding an enemy is like giving him coals for his fire.

Coals of Fire – Romans 12:20
The Scriptures have much to say about forgiving our enemies. Paul says that if we give food and drink to our enemies, “we shall be heaping coals of fire on their heads.” To us this doesn’t sound like forgiveness, but like taking vengeance. In the Bible lands almost everything is carried on the head – water jars, baskets of fruit, vegetables, fish or any other article. Those carrying the burden rarely touch it with the hands, and they walk through crowded streets and lanes with perfect ease. In many homes the only fire they have is kept in a brazier which they use for simple cooking as well as for warmth. They plan to always keep it burning. If it should go out, some member of the family will take the brazier to a neighbor’s house to borrow fire. Then she will lift the brazier to her head and start for home. If her neighbor is a generous woman, she will heap the brazier full of coals. To feed an enemy and give him drink was like heaping the empty brazier with live coals, - which meant food, warmth, and was the symbol of finest generosity.
Strange Scripture – Barbara M. Bowen, pages 31-32

Sometimes a person’s fire went out and he needed to borrow some live coals to restart his fire. Giving a person coals in a pan to carry home “on his head” was a neighborly, kind act; it made friends, not enemies. – Bible Knowledge Commentary

Interpretation 3:

This metaphor refers to the ancient practice of smelting ore for precious metals. Applying heat to ore would cause the desired metals to melt and run free from the slag and dross. While ore was always put over fire for obtaining the precious contents, blazing coals were sometimes poured over the ore to increase the heat even more. Genuine and sincere kindness, unnatural and unexpected may melt a personal enemy, i.e., “A soft answer turns away wrath; But grievous words stir up anger.” Proverbs 15:1

Jesus says in Matthew 5:43 “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”

Instruction on being the better person is shown in Exodus 23:4-5, “If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again. If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.” Exodus goes on with a proper view of justice.

In conclusion: My only argument would be to steer clear of using Romans 2:20 and walking a very fine line of vengeance being an underlying tone or motive. I don’t see God rewarding that view.

In my opinion, using the NLT, I don’t see how a person wouldn’t have some degree of vengeance, a very minuscule or even so much as denying they have it.

I see God instructing us to do good without ever wanting or expecting anything from our enemy as per Matthew 5:43. The coals of fire, IMO, have to be viewed as something done for the good of the person as per interpretation 2 and 3. And, perhaps as with David and Saul, it is cause and effect, but it wasn’t David’s motive.

[Aquila]

I would say that even if one "heaps coals of fire on his head" in doing good to one's enemies in the sense of doing good to ones enemies that they might be ashamed and reflect on their evil actions and possibly repent, it would be an act of love, not vengeance. For what greater good could we bring to an individual than to bring remorse that they might repent and gain eternal life?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I would say that even if one "heaps coals of fire on his head" in doing good to one's enemies in the sense of doing good to ones enemies that they might be ashamed and reflect on their evil actions and possibly repent, it would be an act of love, not vengeance. For what greater good could we bring to an individual than to bring remorse that they might repent and gain eternal life?

If the scripture is using a metaphor, why don't we also use it?

Sometimes a person’s fire went out and he needed to borrow some live coals to restart his fire. Giving a person coals in a pan to carry home “on his head” was a neighborly, kind act; it made friends, not enemies. – Bible Knowledge Commentary

As Bowen stated in her book - "the finest act of generosity"

This metaphor refers to the ancient practice of smelting ore for precious metals. Applying heat to ore would cause the desired metals to melt and run free from the slag and dross. While ore was always put over fire for obtaining the precious contents, blazing coals were sometimes poured over the ore to increase the heat even more. Genuine and sincere kindness, unnatural and unexpected may melt a personal enemy, i.e., “A soft answer turns away wrath; But grievous words stir up anger.” Proverbs 15:1

Why not leave it at that and stop always placing judgment where it isn't?

[Esaias]

The text instructs us to leave the avenging to God who will distribute justice as He sees fit.

Romans 12:18-20 KJV If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. (19) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

We are to live peaceably with all men as much as possible. We are not to avenge ourselves. If someone trespasses against us, we are not to seek to exact vengeance upon them ourselves by "being mean" to them. For example, if a person keys your car, you are not to decide to key their car in return. (Note, this has nothing to do with seeking remedy at law when necessary, for example calling the cops to investigate the burgling of your home.)

Instead of avenging ourselves, we are "to give place to wrath". This does not say we are to "let our wrath dissolve away", rather it is saying we are to make room and provide a space for wrath. The wrath being spoken of here is the Divine Wrath or punishment for injustice. We know this because the reason we are to give place to wrath is explicitly stated in the very next words, "for vengeance is mine, saith the LORD, I will repay."

Therefore, that is to say, because God takes it upon Himself to avenge His elect of the injustices done to them by their enemies, we are to treat our enemies as we would anyone. We are to do good, in obedience to the commandment to love our neighbour as ourself. In doing this it is said we will "heap coals of fire upon" our enemies' heads.

Many think that this means we will cause them to be embarrassed for their ill treatment of us when they see our benevolence towards them. Although that sometimes does happen, it is not the usual response, as both the Bible, history, and our personal experiences can well attest. Rather, it is saying by our doing good to others, loving our neighbour as ourselves, even those who have become our personal enemies by trespassing against us, we acquit ourselves of wrong doing, and provide the necessary authorising for God's vengeance to remedy injustice on our behalf.

The "heaping of coals of fire upon the head" is an allusion to the wrath and judgment of God:

Psalms 140:9-10 KJV As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them. (10) Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Psalms 11:5-7 KJV The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. (6) Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. (7) For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Divine vengeance does not usually work on behalf of those who are not upright. So if you yourself are walking in disobedience, you have no expectation that God will take it upon himself to avenge injustices done to you and right the wrongs. Rather, God tries the righteous, His countenance beholds the upright, and He punishes those who do His chosen ones harm.

It should also be noted that Divine Judgment or wrath upon the enemies does not always mean their total destruction, or some calamity happening to them. It could very well mean they are brought to a place of repentance. And if your attitude is not one that is willing to feed your enemy when he is hungry, or give him drink when he is thirsty, but rather looking to bust his chops, then you probably won't be willing to receive him if he repents. You'll still be nursing a grudge.

[Pressing-On]

Thanks, Esaias. Good post!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The text instructs us to leave the avenging to God who will distribute justice as He sees fit.

Romans 12:18-20 KJV If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. (19) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

We are to live peaceably with all men as much as possible. We are not to avenge ourselves. If someone trespasses against us, we are not to seek to exact vengeance upon them ourselves by "being mean" to them. For example, if a person keys your car, you are not to decide to key their car in return. (Note, this has nothing to do with seeking remedy at law when necessary, for example calling the cops to investigate the burgling of your home.)

Instead of avenging ourselves, we are "to give place to wrath". This does not say we are to "let our wrath dissolve away", rather it is saying we are to make room and provide a space for wrath. The wrath being spoken of here is the Divine Wrath or punishment for injustice. We know this because the reason we are to give place to wrath is explicitly stated in the very next words, "for vengeance is mine, saith the LORD, I will repay."

Therefore, that is to say, because God takes it upon Himself to avenge His elect of the injustices done to them by their enemies, we are to treat our enemies as we would anyone. We are to do good, in obedience to the commandment to love our neighbour as ourself. In doing this it is said we will "heap coals of fire upon" our enemies' heads.

Many think that this means we will cause them to be embarrassed for their ill treatment of us when they see our benevolence towards them. Although that sometimes does happen, it is not the usual response, as both the Bible, history, and our personal experiences can well attest. Rather, it is saying by our doing good to others, loving our neighbour as ourselves, even those who have become our personal enemies by trespassing against us, we acquit ourselves of wrong doing, and provide the necessary authorising for God's vengeance to remedy injustice on our behalf.

The "heaping of coals of fire upon the head" is an allusion to the wrath and judgment of God:

Psalms 140:9-10 KJV As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them. (10) Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Psalms 11:5-7 KJV The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. (6) Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. (7) For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Divine vengeance does not usually work on behalf of those who are not upright. So if you yourself are walking in disobedience, you have no expectation that God will take it upon himself to avenge injustices done to you and right the wrongs. Rather, God tries the righteous, His countenance beholds the upright, and He punishes those who do His chosen ones harm.

It should also be noted that Divine Judgment or wrath upon the enemies does not always mean their total destruction, or some calamity happening to them. It could very well mean they are brought to a place of repentance. And if your attitude is not one that is willing to feed your enemy when he is hungry, or give him drink when he is thirsty, but rather looking to bust his chops, then you probably won't be willing to receive him if he repents. You'll still be nursing a grudge.

Amen.

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The text instructs us to leave the avenging to God who will distribute justice as He sees fit.

Romans 12:18-20 KJV If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. (19) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

We are to live peaceably with all men as much as possible. We are not to avenge ourselves. If someone trespasses against us, we are not to seek to exact vengeance upon them ourselves by "being mean" to them. For example, if a person keys your car, you are not to decide to key their car in return. (Note, this has nothing to do with seeking remedy at law when necessary, for example calling the cops to investigate the burgling of your home.)

Instead of avenging ourselves, we are "to give place to wrath". This does not say we are to "let our wrath dissolve away", rather it is saying we are to make room and provide a space for wrath. The wrath being spoken of here is the Divine Wrath or punishment for injustice. We know this because the reason we are to give place to wrath is explicitly stated in the very next words, "for vengeance is mine, saith the LORD, I will repay."

Therefore, that is to say, because God takes it upon Himself to avenge His elect of the injustices done to them by their enemies, we are to treat our enemies as we would anyone. We are to do good, in obedience to the commandment to love our neighbour as ourself. In doing this it is said we will "heap coals of fire upon" our enemies' heads.

Many think that this means we will cause them to be embarrassed for their ill treatment of us when they see our benevolence towards them. Although that sometimes does happen, it is not the usual response, as both the Bible, history, and our personal experiences can well attest. Rather, it is saying by our doing good to others, loving our neighbour as ourselves, even those who have become our personal enemies by trespassing against us, we acquit ourselves of wrong doing, and provide the necessary authorising for God's vengeance to remedy injustice on our behalf.

The "heaping of coals of fire upon the head" is an allusion to the wrath and judgment of God:

Psalms 140:9-10 KJV As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them. (10) Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Psalms 11:5-7 KJV The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. (6) Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. (7) For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Divine vengeance does not usually work on behalf of those who are not upright. So if you yourself are walking in disobedience, you have no expectation that God will take it upon himself to avenge injustices done to you and right the wrongs. Rather, God tries the righteous, His countenance beholds the upright, and He punishes those who do His chosen ones harm.

It should also be noted that Divine Judgment or wrath upon the enemies does not always mean their total destruction, or some calamity happening to them. It could very well mean they are brought to a place of repentance. And if your attitude is not one that is willing to feed your enemy when he is hungry, or give him drink when he is thirsty, but rather looking to bust his chops, then you probably won't be willing to receive him if he repents. You'll still be nursing a grudge.

Does this mean that you now believe in letting the Lord avenge you in everything ?

Or how do you reconcile this with physical self-defense?

Honest questions. Not trying to start something, just want to know.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

Does this mean that you now believe in letting the Lord avenge you in everything ?

Or how do you reconcile this with physical self-defense?

Honest questions. Not trying to start something, just want to know.

As I understand what Esaias is saying, he's referring to premeditated revenge. Self-defense is rarely premeditated.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

Does this mean that you now believe in letting the Lord avenge you in everything ?

Or how do you reconcile this with physical self-defense?

Honest questions. Not trying to start something, just want to know.

I believe "avenging yourself" is not quite the same thing as self defense. Avenging yourself means executing judicial punishment on your behalf and at your own instigation. For example, someone keys your car so you sneak over and key their car in return. Or someone slaps you so you slap them back.

Self defense is an attempt to prevent an assault from being carried out or completed.

Let's say someone broke into my house while I was gone. I check my surveillance video footage and identify who the burglar was. Then I go by their house and break into it, trash it to pieces, maybe steal some of their stuff (serves them right, eh?) and so forth. That would be avenging myself.

But if I am at home and someone breaks into my house and I arrest them at gunpoint, that is self defense (I have stopped the commission of a crime).

I believe these issues of "thine enemy" has to to with personal enemies, ie people you don't get along with. I do not believe it has anything to do with rampaging zombie nazi biker hordes, invading Russkies, or psychopathic rapists on the loose, etc.

For example, God in the old testament (proverbs) said we are to feed our enemy and give them drink if they are thirsty. Yet the same God in the same old testament told Israel to smite their Canaanite enemies into oblivion and gave rules for war, civil punishment of crime (including the death penalty, etc). So there is obviously a different type of "enemy" being discussed, depending on context, otherwise God contradicted Himself repeatedly.

Hope that helps.

[Pressing-On]

Good conversation! I just want to point out, again, that the NLT, adding the word "shame" has taken quite some liberty.

IMO, the NLT perpetuates some measure of vengeance by stating the purpose all along is to make the person feel disgraced. No other translation adds that in.

As Esaias stated, some will feel sorry and some won't. That shouldn't be our motive anyway. That isn't true love or kindness.