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  #161  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:23 AM
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Scott Hutchinson Scott Hutchinson is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Acts 2:38 is essential Mark 16 :16 explains the importance of baptism,so those principles I don't question.
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  #162  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:26 AM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

I certainly don't agree with some things in this article,bit it is interesting.
http://www.ekklesia4him.net/Remission_study.pdf
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  #163  
Old 10-06-2010, 07:31 AM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegalist View Post
Bruce Metzger was the editor of the Textual Commentary on The Greek New Testament, published by the United Bible Societies. He is currently teaching at Princeton Theological Seminary in New Jersey. He wrote, "In reply to your recent inquiry may I say that, in my view, the phrase 'eis aphesin hamartion' in Acts 2:38 applies in sense to both of the preceding verbs."
Surfing by and found the plural/singular issue of Acts 2:38 being discussed so I thought I'd add a further point for consideration.

While it's true the plural phrase 'eis aphesin hamartion' could refer to both the plural "repent" and to the singular "be baptized every one of you," it does not address the implications of its meaning for those who hold EIS to be causal / purposive.

If EIS is causal and is to be connected to BOTH repentance AND baptism, then there is a theological problem. The meaning of the passage would be as follows:
Let the group repent
Let each of you individuals of the group be baptized
'For the purpose of' remitting the sins of the group
I think we can all agree that we are not individually baptized in order to get the sins of the rest of the world remitted.

If we are to demand the plural 'eis aphesin hamartion' be connected to BOTH repentance AND to water baptism, it would better support the position that EIS is non-causal/non-purposive and means something similar to 'with respect to' or 'with a view toward' sin remission as follows:
Let the group repent
Let each of you individuals of the group be baptized
'With respect to' (or 'with a view toward') the remission of the sins of the group [which took place on the Cross].
This makes much more sense theologically for it now simply shows that baptism points to the historic remission of mankind's sins on the Cross. Mankind is to repent, and each of us is to be baptized with a view toward the historic finished work of sin remission which took place on the Cross. Sin remission is thus not effected in baptism, but is simply the referenced historic act of God completed on the Cross.

Again, while taking the plural and singular structures of the passage into consideration we cannot hold to a position which implies that each man is to be baptized for the purpose of remitting the sins of the world. This would be theological nonsense and any line of thinking implying such a position should, of course, be abandoned.
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  #164  
Old 10-06-2010, 10:21 AM
DAII DAII is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Adino, would address Daniel Segraves thoughts on the phraseology:

http://danielsegraves.blogspot.com/search?q=beisner
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  #165  
Old 10-06-2010, 02:54 PM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII View Post
Adino, would address Daniel Segraves thoughts on the phraseology:

http://danielsegraves.blogspot.com/search?q=beisner
DAII, I've thus far only read half of Segraves blog but it seems he builds the rest of his article on premises of which I take issue. Here are a few thoughts concerning what I have read:

Segraves writes:
"Assuming for the sake of discussion that the second-person plural humōn is the original reading, Beisner’s comment begs the question as to what the implication is of making this switch. Using Beisner’s reasoning, the implication would be that all of those present should repent for the forgiveness of the sins of all of those present. This is certainly not Peter’s meaning."
I think Rev. Segraves could be mistaken here. It most certainly is possible Peter's intended meaning is that all being addressed were to repent 'with a view toward' the remission of all sin on the Cross. An acceptance of the effected sin remission of the Cross is part of repentance. It is in repentance that one turns from unbelief in the risen Christ to faith in him and his effective work on Calvary. The fact that Christ was resurrected blatantly declared the issue of sin had been dealt with, for to accept a risen Christ is to accept that God no longer imputes to him the sins Christ bore on Calvary. The resurrection declares a finished work of sin remission. All are to have a repentant heart trusting in Christ as Savior from all sin.

Those pricked in their hearts in Acts 2:37 were asking what to do in light of their sin of having rejected the Messiah. Peter could very possibly be telling them all to turn to faith in Jesus Christ with a view toward the accomplished sin remitting work of the Cross made apparent by Christ's resurrection. Sin remission would thus not be the result of repentance and/or baptism but the accomplished work of Christ on the Cross to be acknowledged and trusted in. Men were to turn to faith in Christ with a view toward the accomplished sin remission He performed on the Cross.

In turning our repentant hearts to faith in Christ and his finished work of sin remission on the Cross we 'repent for the forgiveness of the sins of all.'

I also think Segraves does not make a convincing case for the definite causal use of 'eis' in the phrase 'for the remission of sins.' The phrase can very easily be interpreted as 'with a view toward' (or 'with respect to') sin remission elsewhere in Scripture.

Segraves goes on to say,
"If Beisner’s reading is followed, would the forgiveness of sins that is effected by communal repentance be invalidated if even one person who heard Peter’s command failed to repent?"
I do not believe God's forgiveness is 'effected' by any repentance, whether communal or individual. Forgiveness is a matter of historic reality effected on the Cross and not afterwards. Whether we accept or reject this accomplished fact of remission has no bearing on its historicity. Any further forgiveness by God after the Cross would require a further sacrifice.

The only thing changing after the Cross in regard to God's forgiveness is our coming to terms with its reality. I think once we understand the forgiveness of the Cross in regard to when God enacted it as opposed to when we experience and/or 'receive' it we can better approach the question of sin remission in Acts 2:38.

An important illustration: Consider the son who sins against his father and moves far away. In his dying moments the father makes it known to all that he has forgiven his estranged son. Years later the son comes to acknowledge his sin against his father and returns home only to find that his father has passed. He is devastated and his conscience of sin is tearing his soul apart.

Is the son forgiven? YES

Has he experienced his father's forgiveness? NOT YET

Devastated and yearning for a healing of his heart he finally learns that his father forgave him many years earlier and had never ceased loving him.

Upon hearing this good news the son chooses to place his trust in its reality. This results in a healing in his soul and a cleansing of his conscience of sin. The son moves forward attempting to live a life which would have been pleasing to his loving father.

How long had the son been forgiven? Ever since his father forgave him prior to dying.

Though forgiven for many years, had the son experienced his father's forgiveness? NO, he did not experience the forgiveness of his father until he learned of it and came to rest in the reality of the historic forgiveness. The word of his father's reconciliation brought healing and a purging of conscience just as the word of our Father's reconciliation brings healing and a purging of our conscience of sin (2Corinthians 5:18-19). Our conscience of sin is made perfect / purged / purified by faith in the finished work of the Cross (Hebrews 9:9; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 10:2; Hebrews 10:22; Acts 15:9).

Though God's conscience of our sin was appeased historically on the Cross, our personal conscience of sin can only be purged when we come to learn of the work of the Cross through the hearing of the Gospel. The forgiveness God enacted 2000 years ago is experienced by us today when we hear and accept by faith the Good News of His historic forgiveness.

Neither repentance nor baptism effects God's historic forgiveness. The historic forgiveness of the Cross took place outside of our acceptance or rejection of it.

Since we cannot effect the forgiveness of God through repentance, faith and/or baptism we must simply rest in its historic reality. We all thus repent 'with a view toward,' and each of us are baptized 'with a view toward' the historic remission of the Cross. Our repentance, faith, and baptism has no bearing on the historic fact that God forgave us all on the Cross.

I think this is very supportive of the non-causal / non-purposive understanding of 'eis' in Acts 2:38. If 'eis' is causal in Acts 2:38 then it can only be referencing the purging of conscience we receive when we trust in the historic forgiveness of the Cross and not the actual forgiveness God historically enacted on the Cross 2000 years ago.
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  #166  
Old 10-06-2010, 10:28 PM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

I finished reading the Segraves blog and would like to add the following:

Segraves writes,
"But if Beisner’s response had indeed proved his point, it would not necessarily have meant that repentance was instrumental in effecting forgiveness, for Beisner is apparently of the opinion that the word “for” (eis) may in Acts 2:38 mean “with reference to, that is, as a sign or symbol of forgiveness of sins, not for the purpose of or in order to obtain forgiveness of sins.” If this were the case, neither baptism nor repentance would have anything to do with forgiveness. Even repentance would be only a sign that our sins had been forgiven prior to repentance."
I agree with Segraves' observation that Beisner's view "would not necessarily have meant that repentance was instrumental in effecting forgiveness" because of the way Beisner chooses to interpret 'eis' as 'with reference to... forgiveness of sins.' Segraves is right to point out that "if this were the case, neither baptism nor repentance would have anything to do with forgiveness." I believe this is a correct conclusion as I stated in my previous post. The forgiveness of God was effected on the Cross prior to our hearing the word of this reconciliation. Once we hear the Gospel we can only then have our conscience cleansed by resting in the historic remission of the Cross.

This personal cleansing / purging / purification of heart takes place long after God enacted forgiveness on the Cross. Our conscience of sin is made perfect (Hebrews 9:9; Hebrews 10:2) when we who recognize our depravity convert in repentance from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We repent, i.e., convert to faith in Christ, with a view toward the completed sin remitting work he performed on the Cross.

Segraves concludes that Beisner's view delegates repentance to "a sign that our sins [have] been forgiven." I believe repentance is more than a 'sign' of the historic remission. It is that moment when the heart returning to God rests in the reality that sin has been dealt with by God through Jesus Christ. Again, we convert to faith in Christ with a view toward the completed sin remitting work he performed on the Cross. We repent with a view toward a historic sin remission (Acts 2:38).

I would, however, say that while our acceptance of Christ and his historic remission takes place in repentance, baptism is more the 'sign' as it is an act which signifies 1) an existing acceptance of Christ 2) an existing purged conscience of sin from having accepted by faith the reality of Christ's historic work of sin remission and 3) our passing from death into everlasting life at the moment we believed (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

Those who have a good conscience toward God in regard to sin should be baptized 'with a view toward' (eis) Christ's death and the sin remission it effected on the Cross (1 Peter 3:21; Romans 6:4; Acts 2:38). Those planted in the likeness of Christ's death are to be raised in the likeness of his resurrection to walk in the newness of life (Romans 6:3-5).
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  #167  
Old 10-10-2010, 11:47 AM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Thought I'd add the following to give further support for the non-causal / non-purposive use of "EIS" in Acts 2:38 especially as it relates to water baptism:

If we are to conclude that the phrase "for the remission of sins" is to be connected not only to repentance but also to water baptism we have to include in our consideration...
a) Men were baptized "UNTO [eis] repentance" (Matthew 3:11)

b) Men were baptized "INTO [eis] Christ" (Galations 3:27; Romans 6:3)

c) Men were baptized "FOR [eis] the remission of sins" (Luke 3:3; Acts 2:38)
Men were baptized EIS repentance, EIS Christ, and EIS the remission of sins.
1) Baptism "unto (eis) repentance" did not bring about a heart of repentance but declared and/or pointed to an already existing repentant heart.

2) Baptism "into (eis) Christ" did not bring into being a faith toward Christ but declared and/or pointed to an already existing faith in Jesus.
Why then is it so much a reach to accept....
3) Baptism "for (eis) the remission of sins" did not bring about the remission of sins but declared and/or pointed to a sin remission which already existed.....?
Baptism was performed with a view toward repentance, with a view toward Christ, and with a view toward the remission of sins. It was an act which testified of repentance, of Christ, and of sin remission. In baptism the baptismal candidate declared his repentant heart, his faith in Christ, and his acceptance of Christ's finished work of sin remission on the Cross.

As G.T. Haywood once wrote, "Oh, consistency, thou art a jewel."

At this point Matthew 26:28 is usually brought up in support of the causal/purposive/"in order to obtain" position.
"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for [eis] the remission of sins."
While it is indeed true that Christ's blood was shed on Calvary in order to obtain the remission of sins, it is also true this passage has a second contextual meaning. The statement is used by the Roman Catholic church to support their teaching of sin remission in the Eucharist because the "blood... shed" is said to be a reference to the cup of communion shed/ poured "for the remission of sins."

If the "blood... shed" wording is to be contextually connected to the sacramental act of communion I doubt many here would say that communion is performed "in order to obtain" sin remission but rather that it only symbolically points to it. Thus, I believe most here would agree that the eucharist is performed 'with a view toward' the historic remission of the Cross.

If, this is the case, we have evidence of one sacrament only symbolically pointing to sin remission. One would have to ask why not be consistent and understand the sacrament of baptism does precisely the same. Baptism would thus not effect sin remission just like the eucharist does not effect sin remission. Baptism would instead simply point to the historic remission of the Cross as does the eucharist. Baptism would, again, be performed 'with a view toward' the historic remission of the Cross.

Food for thought.... God bless
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  #168  
Old 10-11-2010, 06:33 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by OilCityCajun View Post
Remission is not the same as forgiveness. Repentence brings forgiveness, Baptism brings cleansing, Spiritual birth brings power to remain clean.

To use the same analogy Christ used in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26, an evil spirit was cast out and after a time returned to find the "house" swept (repented), and garnished (baptized) but empty (not filled with the Holy Ghost). That spirit went and invited 7 more spirits even more evil than himself and started a commune.

Sweeping is good to keep the "cobwebs of sin" down, but baptism washes out the spider and the Holy Ghost keeps him from returning. Therefore, all three steps are crucial to becoming and remaining saved.

Another, more direct analogy would be this: Repentance stops <insert sin of your choice>, but could leave the <vehicle of aforementioned sin> in one's house. Baptism throws the <vehicle for sin> away. The Holy Ghost gives the power to resist accessing another <vehicle>.
The Greek word for Remission and Forgiveness are the same. It's the same thing.
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  #169  
Old 10-11-2010, 08:09 AM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
The Greek word for Remission and Forgiveness are the same. It's the same thing.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance for the win.
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  #170  
Old 10-11-2010, 08:45 AM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

So, taking the plural/singular construction of Acts 2:38, the possibility that the phrase "for the remission of sins" is to be connected BOTH to repentance AND to baptism, and the different possible interpretations of 'eis' in the phrase "for (eis) the remission of sins" into consideration....which makes more sense?
A) With 'eis' causal / purposive:
Let the group repent
['For the purpose of' remitting the sins of all in the group]
And let each of the individuals of the group be baptized
'For the purpose of' remitting the sins of all in the group
OR...
B) With 'eis' non-causal / non-purposive:
Let the group repent
['With a view toward' the remission of the sins of all in the group - which took place on the Cross] And let each of the individuals of the group be baptized
'With a view toward' the remission of the sins of all in the group [which took place on the Cross].
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