If Islam is wicked because it commands its followers to kill its (or God's, as they believe) enemies, then isn't the "true" religion (the worshipers of the one true God) of the OT also wicked? It also has instructed, at times, its followers to kill its (or God's) enemies. Its followers are told to kill rebellious children. God's armies have been commanded to show no compassion to babies and children, and to rape the women. God Himself has drowned men, women, and children. Think of the babies during the flood of Noah, panicking for air until losing consciousness and dying. Think of the pregnant women being slashed to pieces. Think of the Egyptian families when they woke to find their first-born children dead in their beds.
We can try to excuse these things any way we want, looking at the "greater good" or saying that God knows better than we do how to administer justice. If we believe the Bible literally, then how can we judge the Quran as evil, but not the Bible?
You say oh, that stuff is Old Testament -- it doesn't apply anymore. Fine, but it did "apply" at the time, didn't it? Was it evil then, or was it not? If it was evil, did God correct His OT "mistakes" in the new covenant? If it was not evil, then by what standard do we make the judgment that Islam is evil?
Disclaimer: I do not defend Islam in any way. I don't believe in their religion, and I do not believe the 10% (or whatever) that are extremists are in any way, shape, or form justified in killing infidels. I am addressing only the topic of how we judge the religion itself, based on its scriptures, as wicked. And: I'm just asking!
Islam is wicked because......sorry Timmy but that is the wrong question and wrong issue. Islam is a religion that has followers in large numbers that believe they are justified in cutting off your head because you are not muslim...when they are about to draw the blade across your neck...is whether or not it's a wicked religion really the issue?
Why do so many people here deal in emotion and not facts? The fact is Islam has been and still is a religion that by and large condones the persecution of non-muslims, either by limiting their freedoms or just plain killing them for not being muslim. Of course, as has been said, not all practice it and not all condone it, but little has changed for Islam in the last several hundred years..
I don't fear Jews coming after me with a sword because I am a Christian, despite what the OT says.
Additionally the enemies of Israel or God were not those nations that minded their own business. They were enemies that came AFTER Israel or were in their land. It was not Israel's job to conquer and impose Judaism on the rest of the world by sword or political take over.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Islam is wicked because......sorry Timmy but that is the wrong question and wrong issue. Islam is a religion that has followers in large numbers that believe they are justified in cutting off your head because you are not muslim...when they are about to draw the blade across your neck...is whether or not it's a wicked religion really the issue?
Why do so many people here deal in emotion and not facts? The fact is Islam has been and still is a religion that by and large condones the persecution of non-muslims, either by limiting their freedoms or just plain killing them for not being muslim. Of course, as has been said, not all practice it and not all condone it, but little has changed for Islam in the last several hundred years..
I don't fear Jews coming after me with a sword because I am a Christian, despite what the OT says.
Additionally the enemies of Israel or God were not those nations that minded their own business. They were enemies that came AFTER Israel or were in their land. It was not Israel's job to conquer and impose Judaism on the rest of the world by sword or political take over.
Thank you. We need to be realistic. I don't know how these sort of arguments start, but Im not trying to villify Islamics. We need to look at facts, present day and historical facts. Pointing at the bible and going "Yeah? Yeah? Well...what about this Huh?" just doesn't deal with the reality of the problem we are facing right now and in the near future
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Timmy, the same God of the OT is the same of the NT. Before one goes and condemns God for His actions one must understand the purpose of His actions and it also helps to keep the story in it's context. One can use anything in abstraction.
Abstraction? What's abstract about killing a child? The context? God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so he would not give the Israelites their freedom. Undoubtedly, some of those first-born children were just toddlers. Some were older. Some were infants. Didn't matter. Pharaoh, because God hardened his heart, had to be punished, along with all his subjects. The people themselves loved the Israelites! Gave them silver and gold, for the asking! Didn't matter. They had to be punished for Pharaoh's hard heart. The one that God gave him. There was death in every house that night.
The purpose? Why did God make Pharaoh so stubborn? He tells us why in Exodus 10:
1 "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."
Oh, well then. That makes it OK.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I have been trying for two nights to listen to everything that Lebanese woman was saying and have been distracted to the point of running out of time. I am going to listen to the rest of what she said tomorrow. She was really running on all eight cylinders, huh? Just from what I have heard so far, all I can say is WOW!!!
Islam is wicked because......sorry Timmy but that is the wrong question and wrong issue. Islam is a religion that has followers in large numbers that believe they are justified in cutting off your head because you are not muslim...when they are about to draw the blade across your neck...is whether or not it's a wicked religion really the issue?
Why do so many people here deal in emotion and not facts? The fact is Islam has been and still is a religion that by and large condones the persecution of non-muslims, either by limiting their freedoms or just plain killing them for not being muslim. Of course, as has been said, not all practice it and not all condone it, but little has changed for Islam in the last several hundred years..
I don't fear Jews coming after me with a sword because I am a Christian, despite what the OT says.
Additionally the enemies of Israel or God were not those nations that minded their own business. They were enemies that came AFTER Israel or were in their land. It was not Israel's job to conquer and impose Judaism on the rest of the world by sword or political take over.
I was responding to Bro Strange's contention that Islam is a wicked religion because the Quran prescribes horrible things, like beheading non-Muslims. (Sorry I didn't quote him, for context, and he's free to correct me if I got it wrong. See post #61.) If that's how to judge one religion, why shouldn't it work for another?
And I am dealing in facts that have emotional impact. So what? If my child were killed by God, I'd have an emotional reaction, you better believe it!
Again, let me stress: I am not defending Islam, neither the 10% nor the 90%. Just wondering about what looks to me like a double standard.
Speaking of double standard, how does your comment about a blade to my neck not qualify as an emotive argument? You sure like to throw that accusation around!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I was responding to Bro Strange's contention that Islam is a wicked religion because the Quran prescribes horrible things, like beheading non-Muslims. (Sorry I didn't quote him, for context, and he's free to correct me if I got it wrong. See post #61.) If that's how to judge one religion, why shouldn't it work for another?
And I am dealing in facts that have emotional impact. So what? If my child were killed by God, I'd have an emotional reaction, you better believe it!
Again, let me stress: I am not defending Islam, neither the 10% nor the 90%. Just wondering about what looks to me like a double standard.
Speaking of double standard, how does your comment about a blade to my neck not qualify as an emotive argument? You sure like to throw that accusation around!
As I said, hopefully we can get BACK to the issue at hand. This is not imagination. This is a relevant issue for TODAY. It's happening RIGHT NOW. To treat it in such a way is to minimize the issue. It's real. It's a growing threat and danger to the entire world, let alone Christians.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
As I said, hopefully we can get BACK to the issue at hand. This is not imagination. This is a relevant issue for TODAY. It's happening RIGHT NOW. To treat it in such a way is to minimize the issue. It's real. It's a growing threat and danger to the entire world, let alone Christians.
Not sure how anything I said minimized the issue. But I agree it's a growing threat and danger. Is the purpose of this thread to brainstorm on how to deal with it?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Again, let me stress: I am not defending Islam, neither the 10% nor the 90%. Just wondering about what looks to me like a double standard.
Couldn't prove it by me.
After all, who and what is more wicked than the judeao/christian culture? You can never tell when another Presbyterian is going to slam a plane into a packed building on a Monday morning. Watch those Methodist and Mormons. They will do you in every time.
Abstraction? What's abstract about killing a child? The context? God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so he would not give the Israelites their freedom. Undoubtedly, some of those first-born children were just toddlers. Some were older. Some were infants. Didn't matter. Pharaoh, because God hardened his heart, had to be punished, along with all his subjects. The people themselves loved the Israelites! Gave them silver and gold, for the asking! Didn't matter. They had to be punished for Pharaoh's hard heart. The one that God gave him. There was death in every house that night.
The purpose? Why did God make Pharaoh so stubborn? He tells us why in Exodus 10:
1 "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."
Oh, well then. That makes it OK.
Timmy, you are going to take a 3500 year old account to argue moral equivelence with MODERN Islamic fundementalism? that dont make no sense.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Linear Mode
