Be Ye Perfect

[Michael The Disciple]

On another thread N David said:

However, the Greek word used in the scriptures I gave, including Matt 5:48 means "fully developed." Being "fully developed" is different than being flawless. We should be fully developed as Christians, but until we are rid of this flesh, we will never be flawless.

Here is the Strongs definition.

5046 // teleiov // teleios // tel'-i-os //

from 5056 ; TDNT - 8:67,1161; adj

AV - perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Nothing says here that perfect does not mean perfect.

If the work in a Christians life is "perfect" as in brought to its end would that not include walking free from sin?

If it means "wanting nothing" that means nothing else is needed. If one still has sin in their life obviously that are lacking in righteousness and holiness.

Human integrity and virtue?

Full grown? Mature? Will a fully developed Christian have sin in their life?

The new age Evangelical/Protestant teaching has almost enveloped the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. There is very little understanding left.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

On another thread N David said:



Here is the Strongs definition.

5046 // teleiov // teleios // tel'-i-os //

from 5056 ; TDNT - 8:67,1161; adj

AV - perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Nothing says here that perfect does not mean perfect.

If the work in a Christians life is "perfect" as in brought to its end would that not include walking free from sin?

If it means "wanting nothing" that means nothing else is needed. If one still has sin in their life obviously that are lacking in righteousness and holiness.

Human integrity and virtue?

Full grown? Mature? Will a fully developed Christian have sin in their life?

The new age Evangelical/Protestant teaching has almost enveloped the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. There is very little understanding left.

I'm on a mobile device, so I'll respond more later. The site I brought up earlier didn't include the full definition you provided. It literally had one meaning listed, which was "fully developed."

I stand by the statement quoted here...that until we're rid of this flesh, we will not be perfect. You say it's New Age teaching, but it's what I see in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect [same Greek word] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

We're not perfect. Not even you.

[imreedemed]

I'm currently reading the book of Job. God saw him as a perfect and upright men and though he went about questioning God, he never cursed Him.

IMO most folk want to believe we are not perfect and this gives them a license to sin and pray for forgiveness at bedtime.

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Job 1:1

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

On another thread N David said:



Here is the Strongs definition.

5046 // teleiov // teleios // tel'-i-os //

from 5056 ; TDNT - 8:67,1161; adj

AV - perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Nothing says here that perfect does not mean perfect.

If the work in a Christians life is "perfect" as in brought to its end would that not include walking free from sin?

If it means "wanting nothing" that means nothing else is needed. If one still has sin in their life obviously that are lacking in righteousness and holiness.

Human integrity and virtue?

Full grown? Mature? Will a fully developed Christian have sin in their life?

The new age Evangelical/Protestant teaching has almost enveloped the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. There is very little understanding left.

He didn't say it doesn't mean perfect. He said it doesn't mean flawless and he was referring to specific verses it was used in.

Your own list from Strongs, a less than flawless resource, shows the word can be used in OTHER ways besides "perfect" (flawless)

[Praxeas]

téleios; fem. teleía, neut. téleion, adj. from télos (G5056), goal, purpose. Finished, that which has reached its end, term, limit; hence, complete, full, wanting in nothing.
(I) Generally (Jam_1:4, Jam_1:17, Jam_1:25; 1Jo_4:18 [cf. Heb_9:11]; Sept.: Exo_12:5). Figuratively, in a moral sense, of persons (Mat_5:48 [cf. Luk_6:36]; Mat_19:21; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; Jam_1:4; Jam_3:2); the will of God (Rom_12:2; Sept.: Gen_6:9; 1Ki_11:4). When used in a moral sense referring to God's expectation of us, it means completely blameless. A "perfect gift" in Jam_1:17 means one that has all the necessary qualities. In Jam_1:4, "that ye may be perfect" means that you may keep yourself "unspotted from the world." It has a similar meaning in Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21; Rom_12:2; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; Jam_3:2.
(II) Specifically of persons meaning full age, adulthood, full-grown, of persons, meaning full-grown in mind and understanding (1Co_14:20); in knowledge of the truth (1Co_2:6; Phi_3:15; Heb_5:14); in Christian faith and virtue (Eph_4:13). In the neut. tó téleion means the final destination of the believer, that is, heaven (1Co_13:10, as contrasted to the full age in knowledge and understanding in 1Co_13:11). This image of fully completed growth as contrasted with infancy and childhood underlies the ethical use of téleioi, being set over against the babes in Christ (1Co_2:6; 1Co_14:20; Eph_4:13-14; Phi_3:15; Heb_5:14).
(III) Téleios can be used in a relative or absolute sense (Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21). God's perfection is absolute; man's is relative. The téleios is one who has attained moral maturity, the goal for which he was intended, namely, to be a man obedient in Christ.
(IV) Tó téleion, perfect, in the neut. means the complete one in contrast with tó ek mérous (ek [G1537], of; mérous [G3313], a part), that which is in part. Tó téleion, therefore, indicates the ultimate goal of heavenly perfection as contrasted with the immediate and merely partial experience of saints on earth (1Co_13:10). In 1Jo_4:18 hēteleía agápē ([G26], love), the perfect love, means the love which is mature, not lacking boldness or confidence and therefore not hampered by the insecurity or anxiety which are characteristic of immature love.
(V) Also generally, it means what is renowned or preeminent (Heb_9:11; Jam_1:25).
Deriv.: teleiótēs (G5047), completeness, perfection; teleióō (G5048), to complete, perfect; teleíōs (G5049), completely, without wavering, to the end.

Zodhaites WordStudy

[n david]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

(III) Téleios can be used in a relative or absolute sense (Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21). God's perfection is absolute; man's is relative. The téleios is one who has attained moral maturity, the goal for which he was intended, namely, to be a man obedient in Christ.

This is what I believe Matthew 5:48 to be. Not that we're to be flawless, but that we're to be fully developed, mature, seasoned in Christ.

My believing we are not perfect does not mean I feel we have a license to sin, not at all. We should live a life pleasing to God; a life that is victorious over the temptations and trials we face. But as long as we have flesh, we are imperfect and flawed.

There's an issue with believing perfect is absolute and not relative; that being we will make a mistake. Every one of us will, in some way, sin. Pride. Gluttony. Lust. Arrogance. And when that happens, the one who believes in the absolute (as the bystander) will look down on the offender and, as Michael did, say "God expects you to be perfect!" And for the offender, the guilt of the offense is enough besides having to deal with the ridiculous idea that we're supposed to be flawless and perfect now that we've experienced salvation.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by n david

This is what I believe Matthew 5:48 to be. Not that we're to be flawless, but that we're to be fully developed, mature, seasoned in Christ.

My believing we are not perfect does not mean I feel we have a license to sin, not at all. We should live a life pleasing to God; a life that is victorious over the temptations and trials we face. But as long as we have flesh, we are imperfect and flawed.

There's an issue with believing perfect is absolute and not relative; that being we will make a mistake. Every one of us will, in some way, sin. Pride. Gluttony. Lust. Arrogance. And when that happens, the one who believes in the absolute (as the bystander) will look down on the offender and, as Michael did, say "God expects you to be perfect!" And for the offender, the guilt of the offense is enough besides having to deal with the ridiculous idea that we're supposed to be flawless and perfect now that we've experienced salvation.

I wonder where this RIDICULOUS idea came from that we are supposed to be "flawless and perfect" came from?

Does Michael The Disciple pull these things up from his own mind like pulling rabbits out of a hat? Or could it possibly be he is trying to help open the eyes of those who have fallen under the spell of Evangelical, new age type teaching that flys in the face of Christs teaching?

How did the real Christ feel about his people having their works perfect before him? Was it pleasing to him?

2 Be watchful , and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die : for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Rev. 3:2

What? Most believe that Christ in no way cares if our works are perfect before him. What a shock when they see the words of Christ confirming his truth from Matt. 5:48!

They have been lulled to the sleep of lukewarmness by the soothing to the flesh teaching that NO ONE IS PERFECT NOR CAN BE!

When they hear the truth it shocks them and they think the messenger means them harm. In reality it is the cry of the heart of God that his people would repent from believing the errors of the devil and man and begin to trust in his words as the Lord of the Church!

[Michael The Disciple]

My believing we are not perfect does not mean I feel we have a license to sin, not at all. We should live a life pleasing to God; a life that is victorious over the temptations and trials we face. But as long as we have flesh, we are imperfect and flawed.

If by "flesh" you mean as long as we are in our bodies we must sin you are missing the apostles doctrine by a mile.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Rom. 12:1

For us to offer our bodies to God holy and acceptable to God is our reasonable service. Its the least we can do. Not something out of reach.

But if you mean "in the flesh" as living under the old sin nature God shows exacly how he feels about living in the flesh.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Rom. 8:8-9

If one is in the flesh he is NOT pleasing to God. It is a mark of not having the Holy Ghost at its worst or at best one who has it being out of his will.

To be an overcomer is the normal life for a Christian.

[Michael The Disciple]

Prax quote:

(I) Generally (Jam_1:4, Jam_1:17, Jam_1:25; 1Jo_4:18 [cf. Heb_9:11]; Sept.: Exo_12:5). Figuratively, in a moral sense, of persons (Mat_5:48 [cf. Luk_6:36]; Mat_19:21; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; Jam_1:4; Jam_3:2); the will of God (Rom_12:2; Sept.: Gen_6:9; 1Ki_11:4).

When used in a moral sense referring to God's expectation of us, it means completely blameless.

Amen. We are to be blameless as Paul witnessed.

10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe : 1 Thess. 2:10

Paul was not boasting as many accuse him of. To him (therefore to God) this was the normal state of a Christian not some great big giant super spiritual person.

He was simply modeling out to the saints what a true Christian is like.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I wonder where this RIDICULOUS idea came from that we are supposed to be "flawless and perfect" came from?

Does Michael The Disciple pull these things up from his own mind like pulling rabbits out of a hat? Or could it possibly be he is trying to help open the eyes of those who have fallen under the spell of Evangelical, new age type teaching that flys in the face of Christs teaching?

How did the real Christ feel about his people having their works perfect before him? Was it pleasing to him?

2 Be watchful , and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die : for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Rev. 3:2

What? Most believe that Christ in no way cares if our works are perfect before him. What a shock when they see the words of Christ confirming his truth from Matt. 5:48!

They have been lulled to the sleep of lukewarmness by the soothing to the flesh teaching that NO ONE IS PERFECT NOR CAN BE!

When they hear the truth it shocks them and they think the messenger means them harm. In reality it is the cry of the heart of God that his people would repent from believing the errors of the devil and man and begin to trust in his words as the Lord of the Church!

ESV Rev 3:2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.

(C) By implication, to fill out, complete, make perfect, accomplish an end (Mat_5:17; Phi_2:2; 2Th_1:11). In the pass., to be made full, complete (Luk_22:16; Joh_3:29; Joh_15:11; Joh_16:24; Joh_17:13; 2Co_10:6; 1Jo_1:4; 2Jo_1:12; Rev_3:2). Of persons (Col_4:12).

BTW that's not the same word as the one you quoted before