Finally a good UPC letter: By Bro Pitman

[Neck]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008

Dear Minister Friends:

“A Piece of Brass”
In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp.

While maintaining a right spirit and a clean heart, I have somewhat to say. Not long ago I came across a term called “Iconoclast”. Iconoclast means Image destroyer. One who opposes the veneration of images or idols. One who attacks beliefs, ideals, or institutions that support such activity. There was a religious party that made this popular in the 8th and 9th century by their opposition to the use of icons. While our times seem to call for “Political Correctness” by some and others leaning on the manual for guidance and direction, allow some of us to stand on the unchanging Word of God. The Bible is replete with scriptures on idolatry. God calls it an Abomination. He abhors it. He never supported, embraced, sympathized, or aligned himself with, nations that did. The Old Testament term is idolatry. The New Testament term is covetousness. Colossians 3:5… which is idolatry.

I humbly submit this question. If Jesus Christ walked in this earth today, would He join or support any fellowship or organization that endorsed idols in any shape or form? This letter is a call for unity. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. We need to continue to love Truth more than people. Truth reigns supreme above all men, governments, and nations. If need be, we stand alone. This is not about remaining a loyal citizen to this nation of diverse laws and peoples, but it is about our supreme love for Truth. I am a team player as long as I am on God’s team.

I have heard the weak apostate cry that television is still prohibited for our ministers to own. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. One man so aptly put it “You want the banana without the peel”. In scripture, we are reminded of Hezekiah. He was one of the royal reformers of his day. Yes, reformers. You see, iconoclasm is not reformation. It is not enough that we extirpate the false and evil. We must supplant it or replace it with true and good.

There are some dreamy theorists who argue that evil and good, like the tares and wheat, should be allowed to grow together. True virtue can only be found in the resistance of evil and in our own perpetual wrestlings with sin and evil. It is for the purpose of developing strength and mastery. There is some truth to this but not enough to redeem the argument of God’s command to separate from idolaters. His judgment falls on them that do these things or have pleasure (fellowship) with them that do these things. Romans 1:32. The truth is that there are things in which Truth and virtue cannot maintain a successful contest. There may be rare individual cases, but the church at large; NO. To hold in one’s bosom a serpent long enough is to incur a deadly bite.

Hezekiah had known too much about idolatry to allow any compromise with it. Instead of urging the people to work within the system for change, he called them into a fight to destroy the system of Baal worship. In every Camp Meeting, District Conference, Sectional Rally, General Conference, we need Hezekiahs to preach Television out of the homes and out of our midst. When is the last time you heard consistency in meeting after meeting of preaching against television? Not just a test of leadership, but a test of membership.

God did not call us to pastor just our platform or leadership. He called us to pastor our church. Leaders originate in the pew. We don’t have a mandate to have a big church as much as we have a mandate for a clean church. If that seems too strong, it probably explains why some are scratching their heads in denial or bewilderment. They are asking themselves the questions; What happened to us? Is it really this bad? Hezekiah’s supreme loyalty to Jehovah was not only an attack against idolatry, but it was a sweeping and crushing condemnation of his own father’s conduct and decisions. Hezekiah even dared to touch the most venerable relic that for eight centuries had been viewed and preserved as the nation’s most sacred memorial. I am talking about the Brazen Serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness. That which was innocent, even commendable in itself, had to be abandoned. As treasured and innocent as it was, it had become an idol. It was impossible to disassociate it from wickedness. Even now it is impossible to disassociate television from idolatry.

Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved. Hezekiah refused to call it the “Brazen Serpent”. Instead, he used the euphemism, “A piece of brass”. I ask this question. Can an institution, once used by God to point people to Christ, be reduced to just a piece of brass? God forbid! Let time be our judge. Better yet, for our sakes, allow history to judge us now.

Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor


So he has a Mark Hanby tape...

[MissBrattified]

So he has a Mark Hanby tape...

What tape would that be?

[Neck]

What tape would that be?

"A Piece of Brass" Mark Hanby 1975

Here is a link to his comments he wrote in his book 2005.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9a1n1whemW4C&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=a+piece+of+brass+mark+hanby&source=web&ots=DaUAY7bGz7&sig=_VmHl0nh8nvBYunhUqoA19diyqA

[AGAPE]

bible

[Joseph Miller]

It is amazing to me that if he is so anti tv that he would use a MH message to launch his idea with. Most UC's won't listen to MH today.

[Elizabeth]

So he has a Mark Hanby tape...


I thought the same thing! We have a preaching tape dated 1978, that Hanby preached a message with this title--but it had nothing to do with TV.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I have only read the first page in this thread but I feel compelled to take a rightouss stand against sin.

Right here, right now I am calling for all Apostolic Pentecostals to rid themselves of their blenders!!!

Just the thought of what evil concoctions are mixed in blenders at hundreds of thousands of bars and private homes chills the mind (pun intended).

How can one use the same device that mixes margaritas and dacqueries to make smoothies or other innocent concoctions? The Bible says to avoid the very appearance of evil. What do people think when you pull that blender out of the cabinent to make your innocent little concoctions? They must be thinking that you REALLY have it because you are an alcoholic chugging drinks decorated with pretty umbrellas late at night when the shades are drawn. Shame on you! This is a clarion call to "dump the blender"!!!

21 pages, over 250 posts.

This comes close to Logic.

Will It Blend?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Wink, your post was good in #230

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Wink
ok i can accept your point on the tv....why add tv to the mix

I dont know you and am not trying to belittle or criticize you.

couple of questions?

Is the lack of cell phones in the youth a rule or is it economically related?Most of our youth are younger. Cell phones for youth is up to the parents, most just don't think that kids need cell phones. My kids where not aloud to have cell phones until recently and they are on my plan and I monitor it. They do not have texting or pictures or any of that stuff.

I guess i should have included home computers as well as laptops in reference to the DVD drives.
they almost all have them. How are you able to police that?They are taught to have a filter and ask if they have one. So if they lie then they have another problem.
Do you encourage your youth to further their education and be successful even at the risk of
some of these technologies becoming an integral part of their lives? My son just got a new job with a computer, he is training as a draftsman. We have school teachers, foremen, retired bank president, retired school teacher. and so on, we are not a bunch of uneducated fools.
Do you have a gap between 18 and say 30 of youth that leave as soon as they finish high school?
Not really, the church I pastor is mostly younger.
Do you prohibit any secular music at all?Yes

Where do you draw the line on christian music?No rock and such and some of the contemporary





__________________________________________________ ______________


I do appreciate you taking the time to address my questions.

I was raised in a very conservative home. My dad trashed my imperials "sail on" album because
of "water grave"

Obviously this was before cell phones and computers but i was kept on a very short leash overall.

My dad was the assistant and not the pastor. Overall both of my pastors had good hearts but were rather cold as if kindness and gentleness would be a sign of weakness.

I left the minute i turned 18 and finished high school. I never felt comfortable around my pastors because they were so intimidating.

I have come to the conclusion that its not about the standards. I hear pastors say" if i let down my standards we would have a big church" That is a complete fallacy.

I have seen churches drop the "standards" and are smaller than ever.

Then i have been to churches that are very conservative and walk right and spit white and have a very large congregation.

Just my observation but the personality of a pastor determines his success. Some of the great churches i go to the pastor is not a conference or even a camp caliber speaker(i know its all the word) but they know how to show love and are very secure in themselves God and the people and the congregation responds to that and will bring people to church because they trust the personality of the pastor. I know all about acts 2/38 and all of the other protocol but lets be real here.

2 types of churches i am most uncomfortable at.

1. a church without truth because if we have an alter service and a sinner comes, where will he end up after im gone.

2. an apostolic church that is so tough that it makes me wonder if that baby has a chance.

I had almost rather be on the other extreme if given the 2 choices. At least the new convert wont get hammered too quick and if there areas that they need to change hopefully they are given time and then the spirit can lead and guide from that point.

When nehemiahs workers were building. They had one hand on the sword and the other hand was for building. Lesson to be followed.

I am so thankful that the church that i prayed thru at the pastor was such a super nice person to me. Huge responsibility being a pastor!!!

Excellent post, Wink, I agree with Boom.

Thanks for pointing it out, Boom, I may have overlooked it.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Excellent post, Wink, I agree with Boom.

Thanks for pointing it out, Boom, I may have overlooked it.

Are you for or against the use of blenders?!?!

This is an important question NOT answered in this thread! :tantrum

[Michael Phelps]

Are you for or against the use of blenders?!?!

This is an important question NOT answered in this thread! :tantrum

I can honestly say, without hesitation or equivocation, that I feel strongly both ways.

[Neck]

I thought the same thing! We have a preaching tape dated 1978, that Hanby preached a message with this title--but it had nothing to do with TV.


Substitute TV for anyting anyone would use as an Idol and you have the same message..

[MissBrattified]

Are you for or against the use of blenders?!?!

This is an important question NOT answered in this thread! :tantrum

I think blenders should be banned!!!! My husband tore his hand UP on a blender a couple of months ago...it was one like this:

http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/59/0/AAAAAtMj34IAAAAAAFkNow.jpg

Notice how the cup inverts...(you blend it, then tip it over, remove the lid and sip directly from the blender cup). Jeff turned it over, attached it to the blender, turned the blender on, the plastic cup flew off, and he instinctively tried to grab the cup, and grabbed the still spinning blade instead. (You'd think that when the cup came off it would've stopped, but it did NOT.)

He had 6 or 7 deep gashes in his fingers and hand...my Mom got home before we got back from the hospital, and said there was blood and chocolate (smoothie mix) everywhere!

Inny waze. He was so traumatized, he can't use our new, more expensive, safer blender/smoothie maker. I haven't even been able to get him to drink a smoothie. :ohplease

So. Considering the harm that blenders/smoothie makers can cause, I say BAN THEM ALL.

[AGAPE]

MY WIFE just got a blender similar to that one...

Bro BOOMM please pray for us :>)

[MissBrattified]

MY WIFE just got a blender similar to that one...

Bro BOOMM please pray for us :>)

I probably should've saved ours and sent it in to the company. Maybe they would've paid for his fingers to be patched up.

It should have had a safety feature that wouldn't allow the blade to spin if the cup wasn't attached!

At the time, though...I was gagging at the sight of blood on everything and trashed every piece. :ouch

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I probably should've saved ours and sent it in to the company. Maybe they would've paid for his fingers to be patched up.

It should have had a safety feature that wouldn't allow the blade to spin if the cup wasn't attached!

At the time, though...I was gagging at the sight of blood on everything and trashed every piece. :ouch

And to think you could have sued both the store where you bought it from, AND the smoothie company!




Blenders are proved evil and dangerous!

[Mrs. LPW]

I think blenders should be banned!!!! My husband tore his hand UP on a blender a couple of months ago...it was one like this:

http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/59/0/AAAAAtMj34IAAAAAAFkNow.jpg

Notice how the cup inverts...(you blend it, then tip it over, remove the lid and sip directly from the blender cup). Jeff turned it over, attached it to the blender, turned the blender on, the plastic cup flew off, and he instinctively tried to grab the cup, and grabbed the still spinning blade instead. (You'd think that when the cup came off it would've stopped, but it did NOT.)

He had 6 or 7 deep gashes in his fingers and hand...my Mom got home before we got back from the hospital, and said there was blood and chocolate (smoothie mix) everywhere!

Inny waze. He was so traumatized, he can't use our new, more expensive, safer blender/smoothie maker. I haven't even been able to get him to drink a smoothie. :ohplease

So. Considering the harm that blenders/smoothie makers can cause, I say BAN THEM ALL.



This reminds me of my husband... he refused to do dishes the first few years we were married (pre-dishwasher years) because HIS BROTHER cut his hand open on a glass while washing it.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

This reminds me of my husband... he refused to do dishes the first few years we were married (pre-dishwasher years) because HIS BROTHER cut his hand open on a glass while washing it.

:groan

How many must die before we ban all blenders from our lives?!?

[TrmptPraise]

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of the blender unto another appliance

I have friends who are for blenders,
I have friends who are against blenders

As for me, I am with my friends.

[Ron Turner]

Any Biblical response??? Is it unfair to ask for scriptures???

I love it when people ask for a biblical reponse.

Apparently, if they use random scriptures in the original argument....even if they are taken out of context, we are supposed to include scripture in every response to the original argument.

Give me a biblical example of a TV being an idol. That's what I'd like to see.

[Joseph Miller]

Give me a biblical example of a TV being an idol. That's what I'd like to see.


You will be waiting a LONG time. There is no scripture for that.

[stmatthew]

I love it when people ask for a biblical reponse.

Apparently, if they use random scriptures in the original argument....even if they are taken out of context, we are supposed to include scripture in every response to the original argument.

Give me a biblical example of a TV being an idol. That's what I'd like to see.

Give me a biblical example that smoking cigarettes is a sin.


If we look at the principle of scriptures, we will find that there is only probably 1% of what is shown on tv that is not detrimental to the spiritual life of a Christian. The fact that many saints are so unwilling to part with this addictive technology could be proof that they have set it up as an idol.

[Ron Turner]

Give me a biblical example that smoking cigarettes is a sin.


If we look at the principle of scriptures, we will find that there is only probably 1% of what is shown on tv that is not detrimental to the spiritual life of a Christian.

That is my point. I can ask for a biblical response to everything. As if a response without a Bible verse attached is not a valid response.

[stmatthew]

Give me a biblical example that smoking cigarettes is a sin.


If we look at the principle of scriptures, we will find that there is only probably 1% of what is shown on tv that is not detrimental to the spiritual life of a Christian. The fact that many saints are so unwilling to part with this addictive technology could be proof that they have set it up as an idol.

You quoted while I was editing. Read my post again.

[Ron Turner]

You quoted while I was editing. Read my post again.


You edited while I was quoting. Read my post again.

[dizzyde]

You edited while I was quoting. Read my post again.

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

:slaphappy:slaphappy

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Give me a biblical example that smoking cigarettes is a sin.


If we look at the principle of scriptures, we will find that there is only probably 1% of what is shown on tv that is not detrimental to the spiritual life of a Christian. The fact that many saints are so unwilling to part with this addictive technology could be proof that they have set it up as an idol.

Catch me when I am at home and have my Bible close by.

It is there in the book of Isaiah.

:campfire

Of course we will have someone here say that is OLD Testament and discredit it.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

That is my point. I can ask for a biblical response to everything. As if a response without a Bible verse attached is not a valid response.

Enthusiasm is not found in the Bible either.

We need more of it!

[AnotherTrave]

:tvhappy

A mile wide and an inch deep...such water only grows reeds and rushes. I don't think I am ready for this stuff...

:eeeew

This is what I meant...

The term Holiness Standards is a term that covers often a wide range of zealous efforts that would not be easily recognized as a form of laws of men that actually have nothing to do with the righteousness of God, and often those that are occupied in them are ignorant of what God really has called us to do.

A television can be used for lust, but so can a shopping trip to the local grocery store, and the problem relates the heart condition of the person that is looking, not to what the person is looking at.

The following verses, though specifically pointing towards the Mosaic Law, are relevant in this case, for at least the Mosaic Law was given by God, where as these "holiness standards" were not.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 10:2-4 (KJV)

It has been a long grief in my heart that the people that have such great truth regarding the name of Jesus so easily swallow down doctrines of men like chugging camels was a sport.

I have observed for over 30 years as people have been extreemly careful regarding sleeves and skirts and so sloppy regarding open slander by name of many fellow preachers that formerly ministered side by side. The tragic wreckage of the abandoned and neglected weak ones litter the waters in the wake of the passing of so many UPC works, and yet this remains one of many discussions that need to be addressed but we will continue to likely ignore.

Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Matt 23:24-26 (KJV)

And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. 15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.


16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. 17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. 18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. 19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. 20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
Isaiah 59:14-21 (KJV)

[Steadfast]

Give me a biblical example that smoking cigarettes is a sin.


If we look at the principle of scriptures, we will find that there is only probably 1% of what is shown on tv that is not detrimental to the spiritual life of a Christian. The fact that many saints are so unwilling to part with this addictive technology could be proof that they have set it up as an idol.
:ohplease
Ain't that the truth.
:ohplease

[StillStanding]

..... The fact that many saints are so unwilling to part with this addictive technology could be proof that they have set it up as an idol.

Speaking of addictive technology being an idol, how about:

Internet? (worse stuff than on TV)
Cell phones? (what happened to face to face conversations?)
Radio? (Ever listen to the lyrics on some stations?)
GPS systems? (Sometimes they can mess you up!)

[Mrs. LPW]

Give me a biblical example that smoking cigarettes is a sin.


If we look at the principle of scriptures, we will find that there is only probably 1% of what is shown on tv that is not detrimental to the spiritual life of a Christian. The fact that many saints are so unwilling to part with this addictive technology could be proof that they have set it up as an idol.

I don't have a television.

Nevertheless, I don't see how pulling every minister you can get a hold on, out of a large body of believers, because churches are now allowed to advertise on TV can be productive for the Kingdom of God. (run on sentence, sorry)

You can try to govern everything, you can try to police everything, you can try to make everyone the same... and you'll never succeed. Everyone was told to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. We were told to preach the Gospel.

And yet... if they succeed in this new organization in saving souls and building the Kingdom of God, I will be very happy, because this isn't my kingdom, it's the Lords... and I'm only one laborer in it.

I would not be a part of Tulsa though.

I don't think what they are doing in leaving and pulling as many with them as they can is ... well, I'm at a loss for the right word here...
I don't think it's right, good, profitable, edifying...

[MissBrattified]

Give me a biblical example that smoking cigarettes is a sin.


If we look at the principle of scriptures, we will find that there is only probably 1% of what is shown on tv that is not detrimental to the spiritual life of a Christian. The fact that many saints are so unwilling to part with this addictive technology could be proof that they have set it up as an idol.

I know lots of people who won't give up their internet or computers. Even when they have serious issues that ought to require it.

[Barb]

I don't have a television.

Nevertheless, I don't see how pulling every minister you can get a hold on, out of a large body of believers, because churches are now allowed to advertise on TV can be productive for the Kingdom of God. (run on sentence, sorry)

You can try to govern everything, you can try to police everything, you can try to make everyone the same... and you'll never succeed. Everyone was told to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. We were told to preach the Gospel.

And yet... if they succeed in this new organization in saving souls and building the Kingdom of God, I will be very happy, because this isn't my kingdom, it's the Lords... and I'm only one laborer in it.

I would not be a part of Tulsa though.

I don't think what they are doing in leaving and pulling as many with them as they can is ... well, I'm at a loss for the right word here...
I don't think it's right, good, profitable, edifying...

This speaks the sentiments of my heart...good post. *imagine a 'thumbs-up' smiley here*

[Monkeyman]

I am addicted to GPS!!!! I love mine, if you preach again' it, I will rebel!!!!

*pianoman* (((Speaking of addictive technology being an idol, how about:

Internet? (worse stuff than on TV)
Cell phones? (what happened to face to face conversations?)
Radio? (Ever listen to the lyrics on some stations?)
GPS systems? (Sometimes they can mess you up!)))

[Fiyahstarter]

As for me and my house, we will have blenders.

[Hoovie]

I think it's funny that he calls TV a "sin", but allows that it's ok to have different viewpoints in divorce. Just goes to show how skewed some folks' thinking is.

AMEN. This is a quite scarey letter because it does expose the mindset of some going to Tulsa.

[Hoovie]

I am addicted to GPS!!!! I love mine, if you preach again' it, I will rebel!!!!*pianoman* (((Speaking of addictive technology being an idol, how about:

Internet? (worse stuff than on TV)
Cell phones? (what happened to face to face conversations?)
Radio? (Ever listen to the lyrics on some stations?)
GPS systems? (Sometimes they can mess you up!)))

I like mine too but mine is acceptable. Ya know dail-up w/black and white screen.

[tv1a]

A friend of mine who was drunk the other night when I saw him said a mind is a terrible thing to get wasted. The letter reminds me of something my friend would write.


AMEN. This is a quite scarey letter because it does expose the mindset of some going to Tulsa.

[Joseph Miller]

AMEN. This is a quite scarey letter because it does expose the mindset of some going to Tulsa.


It hope that the last part of the statement above is not correct but time will tell...time will tell...

[Old Paths]

Are you of the general opinion or the idea that preachers are above scrutiny and critique?


No.

[Melody]

It is so sad to see how men and women of God so freely start picking one another apart, is it really okay because your words are not spoken to start hurling insults at one another? I cringe when I see some of these statements, is there any prayer behind your words at all? Friends Forum? I am finding it difficult to imagine friendships being born and bonded in the atmosphere demonstrated here.

Maybe I am just naive, but where is the love and "brotherhood" "unity" that is being talked about?

Is there any truth and accountability to the words being "spoken" here?

[onegod1]

What I don't understand is that if those of you (and I hope I'm wrong) that appear to hate Truth, godliness, and holiness -- I'm going to just say it -- Why don't you just leave? No one is holding a gun to your head.

[theoldpaths]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008

Dear Minister Friends:

“A Piece of Brass”
In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp.

While maintaining a right spirit and a clean heart, I have somewhat to say. Not long ago I came across a term called “Iconoclast”. Iconoclast means Image destroyer. One who opposes the veneration of images or idols. One who attacks beliefs, ideals, or institutions that support such activity. There was a religious party that made this popular in the 8th and 9th century by their opposition to the use of icons. While our times seem to call for “Political Correctness” by some and others leaning on the manual for guidance and direction, allow some of us to stand on the unchanging Word of God. The Bible is replete with scriptures on idolatry. God calls it an Abomination. He abhors it. He never supported, embraced, sympathized, or aligned himself with, nations that did. The Old Testament term is idolatry. The New Testament term is covetousness. Colossians 3:5… which is idolatry.

I humbly submit this question. If Jesus Christ walked in this earth today, would He join or support any fellowship or organization that endorsed idols in any shape or form? This letter is a call for unity. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. We need to continue to love Truth more than people. Truth reigns supreme above all men, governments, and nations. If need be, we stand alone. This is not about remaining a loyal citizen to this nation of diverse laws and peoples, but it is about our supreme love for Truth. I am a team player as long as I am on God’s team.

I have heard the weak apostate cry that television is still prohibited for our ministers to own. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. One man so aptly put it “You want the banana without the peel”. In scripture, we are reminded of Hezekiah. He was one of the royal reformers of his day. Yes, reformers. You see, iconoclasm is not reformation. It is not enough that we extirpate the false and evil. We must supplant it or replace it with true and good.

There are some dreamy theorists who argue that evil and good, like the tares and wheat, should be allowed to grow together. True virtue can only be found in the resistance of evil and in our own perpetual wrestlings with sin and evil. It is for the purpose of developing strength and mastery. There is some truth to this but not enough to redeem the argument of God’s command to separate from idolaters. His judgment falls on them that do these things or have pleasure (fellowship) with them that do these things. Romans 1:32. The truth is that there are things in which Truth and virtue cannot maintain a successful contest. There may be rare individual cases, but the church at large; NO. To hold in one’s bosom a serpent long enough is to incur a deadly bite.

Hezekiah had known too much about idolatry to allow any compromise with it. Instead of urging the people to work within the system for change, he called them into a fight to destroy the system of Baal worship. In every Camp Meeting, District Conference, Sectional Rally, General Conference, we need Hezekiahs to preach Television out of the homes and out of our midst. When is the last time you heard consistency in meeting after meeting of preaching against television? Not just a test of leadership, but a test of membership.

God did not call us to pastor just our platform or leadership. He called us to pastor our church. Leaders originate in the pew. We don’t have a mandate to have a big church as much as we have a mandate for a clean church. If that seems too strong, it probably explains why some are scratching their heads in denial or bewilderment. They are asking themselves the questions; What happened to us? Is it really this bad? Hezekiah’s supreme loyalty to Jehovah was not only an attack against idolatry, but it was a sweeping and crushing condemnation of his own father’s conduct and decisions. Hezekiah even dared to touch the most venerable relic that for eight centuries had been viewed and preserved as the nation’s most sacred memorial. I am talking about the Brazen Serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness. That which was innocent, even commendable in itself, had to be abandoned. As treasured and innocent as it was, it had become an idol. It was impossible to disassociate it from wickedness. Even now it is impossible to disassociate television from idolatry.

Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved. Hezekiah refused to call it the “Brazen Serpent”. Instead, he used the euphemism, “A piece of brass”. I ask this question. Can an institution, once used by God to point people to Christ, be reduced to just a piece of brass? God forbid! Let time be our judge. Better yet, for our sakes, allow history to judge us now.

Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor

A hearty AMEN and HALLEJAH to that letter!

[RevDWW]

Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved. Hezekiah refused to call it the “Brazen Serpent”. Instead, he used the euphemism, “A piece of brass”. I ask this question. Can an institution, once used by God to point people to Christ, be reduced to just a piece of brass? God forbid! Let time be our judge. Better yet, for our sakes, allow history to judge us now.

Can they look on us in Walmart and be saved, or in our very church. It's not 'us' that does the saving. It's God.

Television is no more of an Idol then is radio, computers, cameras, etc., etc., etc. Some folks make Idol of their cars and houses.

I personally was able to help a couple get baptized in Jesus name because of email and we never saw each other and the originating email was sent to me by mistake.

Folks can hear The Gospel Message from many forms and many means and be convicted and converted.


1 Corinthians 8:1-6 ( KJV ) 1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[Jermyn Davidson]

There isn't anything inherently evil about a brass serpent or tv. However, if you were to worship one or the other or both, you'd be in sin.

I realize this, and I don't own a tv and haven't owned one for years. I may get one soon though. Any recommendations on a good flat screen?

[Jermyn Davidson]

What I don't understand is that if those of you (and I hope I'm wrong) that appear to hate Truth, godliness, and holiness -- I'm going to just say it -- Why don't you just leave? No one is holding a gun to your head.

leave and go where?

[Timmy]

What I don't understand is that if those of you (and I hope I'm wrong) that appear to hate Truth, godliness, and holiness -- I'm going to just say it -- Why don't you just leave? No one is holding a gun to your head.

Oh come on! Who appears to hate Truth, godliness, and holiness?





























I mean besides me! :ursofunny

[RandyWayne]

There isn't anything inherently evil about a brass serpent or tv. However, if you were to worship one or the other or both, you'd be in sin.

I realize this, and I don't own a tv and haven't owned one for years. I may get one soon though. Any recommendations on a good flat screen?

Any of the Sony Bravia line is good, but for the best value look to a technical site like pcmag.com or cnet.com, or even Consumer Reports.

[Tyk]

I simply can not understand why some people think, reason, or comprehend the way they do.

Alot of things that I'd like to say, but as has been made obvious over the past few months - they are to none affect and would be a waste of my time...

Since I like to waste time, if you think that letter is good, great, and full of truth, I would suggest a serious self examination, and reevaluate your thought process. If after much prayer and consideration your the same, fine- but atleast offer God a chance to say "Hey, if I'm wrong, let me be willing to see it. If not, ground me and show me how to help others draw closer to you through this process." Please, please , PLEASE! I beg you.
Love you all.

[deacon blues]

I simply can not understand why some people think, reason, or comprehend the way they do.

Alot of things that I'd like to say, but as has been made obvious over the past few months - they are to none affect and would be a waste of my time...

Since I like to waste time, if you think that letter is good, great, and full of truth, I would suggest a serious self examination, and reevaluate your thought process. If after much prayer and consideration your the same, fine- but atleast offer God a chance to say "Hey, if I'm wrong, let me be willing to see it. If not, ground me and show me how to help others draw closer to you through this process." Please, please , PLEASE! I beg you.
Love you all.

I think the serpent on the pole analogy applies more to what God used in the past and the worship of "the good ole days". We can make an idol of Southern Gospel quartet music. We can make an idol out of the preachers of the past. We can worship our style of worship or preaching. We can worship standards.

Since TV has never been used by us to evangelize before, I think the brazen serpent metaphor fails to follow. I do believe a worship of what God did yesteryear is more applicable. We certainly have plenty of that in our churches and among our preachers.

[aak1972]

I believe Jesus will himself use TV and the Internet. And I will paraphrase the scripture. The Bible says that evry one shall see him return at the same time. The only way this can happen is through satellite TV and internet.

[berkeley]

I believe Jesus will himself use TV and the Internet. And I will paraphrase the scripture. The Bible says that evry one shall see him return at the same time. The only way this can happen is through satellite TV and internet.

...and the "antichrist" or "beast" or whatever you call him will use it first. LoL

[RandyWayne]

...and the "antichrist" or "beast" or whatever you call him will use it first. LoL

Only because the saints have always been the worlds biggest Luddites and LET everyone else use/discover technology before they did.

[Sam]

[B][SIZE="3"]Seems to me that Jesus himself talked about this issue - but I don't recall him ever saying anything about television.... hm-m-m-m-m-m-m-
...


Yes He did.
Jesus plainly said, "Television to no one..." (Matthew 17:9

[hadassah]

when tv was invented it was full of good family programs. Clean and with morality. I am an oneness apostolic and have a tv because I live with a secular family. I dont watch tv because my spirit is grieved at what I see. Not because someone made a rule. The Holy One who lives in me is my guide. I would say to all that He also should be your guide. I do believe people can be reached with television preaching. Israel has allowed daystar to broadcast the gospel in their country. Paul said I become all things to all men to win some. I think The Lord is big enough to handle the negative of tv for the good it can bring to the searching souls. When I was a child and saw "The Ten Commandments" for the first time ; my soul was seared with hearing the words of God to Moses. thank God for that movie, it changed me. Let God use every way possible to reach anyone who is seeking. Dont put a lid on God.

[Sister Alvear]

Thank the Lord for your honesty...

[TJJJ]

I believe Jesus will himself use TV and the Internet. And I will paraphrase the scripture. The Bible says that evry one shall see him return at the same time. The only way this can happen is through satellite TV and internet.

So what happens if He returns over Jerusalem and I don't happen to have a TV on? Will I miss the rapture?

So now TV and Satellite is now necessary for the rapture!

That is funny how some people will use anything to justify what they want!

:ursofunny

[HammondMan]

Hmmm.... well at least the WPF can't be blamed for this one....

"At first, I couldn't believe what I was seeing on stage. I said out loud, "This can't be happening at a Christian festival - they can't do this to my Jesus! These people can't be this blind - the leaders of this youth ministry can't be so undiscerning! Oh God - what has happened to your church that its leaders, its people, can't see the evil of this abomination?"

Suddenly I was on the ground, on my back, weeping and sobbing, and groaning in the Spirit. I sat up and took another look at the stage. I was horrified by what I saw in the Spirit. I saw demonic images rising from that stage! I heard Satan laughing! Laughing at all the blind parents - the blind shepherds - the blind youth - the backslidden church! It was an overt manifestation of Satan - worse than anything I've ever seen on the streets of New York."

The above was written 22 years ago... and can be found here:
http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/1980s/ts870803.html

Make sure to check the link at the end of the article. Hopefully many of you will remember David Wilkerson, and have some respect.

[Theophil]

Yes He did.
Jesus plainly said, "Television to no one..." (Matthew 17:9

Why did you take away from the Word? "... until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." :-)

[coadie]

when tv was invented it was full of good family programs. Clean and with morality. I am an oneness apostolic and have a tv because I live with a secular family. I dont watch tv because my spirit is grieved at what I see. Not because someone made a rule. The Holy One who lives in me is my guide. I would say to all that He also should be your guide. I do believe people can be reached with television preaching. Israel has allowed daystar to broadcast the gospel in their country. Paul said I become all things to all men to win some. I think The Lord is big enough to handle the negative of tv for the good it can bring to the searching souls. When I was a child and saw "The Ten Commandments" for the first time ; my soul was seared with hearing the words of God to Moses. thank God for that movie, it changed me. Let God use every way possible to reach anyone who is seeking. Dont put a lid on God.

I drive folks home after church. I drive by a lot of dark churches Sunday night. I am very convinced it is tv that wins over Sunday night worship.

[CC1]

I drive folks home after church. I drive by a lot of dark churches Sunday night. I am very convinced it is tv that wins over Sunday night worship.

I don't know if it is true or not but a long time ago I read someone who stated that the popularity of Gunsmoke on TV on Sunday nights had killed Sunday night services in America. That would have been during the sixties I believe. Of course now with DVR's there is no need to miss anything to watch a TV show - you just record it on the hard drive.

[RevDWW]

I don't know if it is true or not but a long time ago I read someone who stated that the popularity of Gunsmoke on TV on Sunday nights had killed Sunday night services in America. That would have been during the sixties I believe. Of course now with DVR's there is no need to miss anything to watch a TV shoe - you just record it on the hard drive.

A TV shoe? Don't get the women started..........:ursofunny

[RandyWayne]

I don't know if it is true or not but a long time ago I read someone who stated that the popularity of Gunsmoke on TV on Sunday nights had killed Sunday night services in America. That would have been during the sixties I believe. Of course now with DVR's there is no need to miss anything to watch a TV shoe - you just record it on the hard drive.

God gave DVR's to you. Gave DVR's to you. Put it in the soul of everyone.

[CC1]

A TV shoe? Don't get the women started..........:ursofunny

Must have been a Freudian slip!


BTW - It is my personal theory that the invention of TV remote controls probably killed Sunday night service. Aggravated men were searching for it after the wife and kids used it earlier in the day and lost track of time and missed Sunday night service.

[RevDWW]

Must have been a Freudian slip!

Maybe it was just a Freudian slipper..........:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

[larryboy]

I dont get it... I grew up in a ultra-con church, and till this day they are very strict. just a few years ago they allowed the internet. my former church is so strict, my pastor pulled out of the UPC last year due to Res. 4. I asked him a while back if he was going to join another organization, i asked about WPF and he said they were too liberal for him, because they broadcast on the net. I just talked to a friend who attends this church.. tonight he is watching a MMA fight, paperview on the internet. he is having a huge party, and using his 52 inch as a monitor... what is the difference, they look at the UPC and say were going down hill...

[RandyWayne]

I dont get it... I grew up in a ultra-con church, and till this day they are very strict. just a few years ago they allowed the internet. my former church is so strict, my pastor pulled out of the UPC last year due to Res. 4. I asked him a while back if he was going to join another organization, i asked about WPF and he said they were too liberal for him, because they broadcast on the net. I just talked to a friend who attends this church.. tonight he is watching a MMA fight, paperview on the internet. he is having a huge party, and using his 52 inch as a monitor... what is the difference, they look at the UPC and say were going down hill...

Just out of curiosity, how large is this church?

[ShaunGains2010]

i support you brother pitmman.