Finally a good UPC letter: By Bro Pitman

[AGAPE]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008

Dear Minister Friends:

“A Piece of Brass”
In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp.

While maintaining a right spirit and a clean heart, I have somewhat to say. Not long ago I came across a term called “Iconoclast”. Iconoclast means Image destroyer. One who opposes the veneration of images or idols. One who attacks beliefs, ideals, or institutions that support such activity. There was a religious party that made this popular in the 8th and 9th century by their opposition to the use of icons. While our times seem to call for “Political Correctness” by some and others leaning on the manual for guidance and direction, allow some of us to stand on the unchanging Word of God. The Bible is replete with scriptures on idolatry. God calls it an Abomination. He abhors it. He never supported, embraced, sympathized, or aligned himself with, nations that did. The Old Testament term is idolatry. The New Testament term is covetousness. Colossians 3:5… which is idolatry.

I humbly submit this question. If Jesus Christ walked in this earth today, would He join or support any fellowship or organization that endorsed idols in any shape or form? This letter is a call for unity. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. We need to continue to love Truth more than people. Truth reigns supreme above all men, governments, and nations. If need be, we stand alone. This is not about remaining a loyal citizen to this nation of diverse laws and peoples, but it is about our supreme love for Truth. I am a team player as long as I am on God’s team.

I have heard the weak apostate cry that television is still prohibited for our ministers to own. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. One man so aptly put it “You want the banana without the peel”. In scripture, we are reminded of Hezekiah. He was one of the royal reformers of his day. Yes, reformers. You see, iconoclasm is not reformation. It is not enough that we extirpate the false and evil. We must supplant it or replace it with true and good.

There are some dreamy theorists who argue that evil and good, like the tares and wheat, should be allowed to grow together. True virtue can only be found in the resistance of evil and in our own perpetual wrestlings with sin and evil. It is for the purpose of developing strength and mastery. There is some truth to this but not enough to redeem the argument of God’s command to separate from idolaters. His judgment falls on them that do these things or have pleasure (fellowship) with them that do these things. Romans 1:32. The truth is that there are things in which Truth and virtue cannot maintain a successful contest. There may be rare individual cases, but the church at large; NO. To hold in one’s bosom a serpent long enough is to incur a deadly bite.

Hezekiah had known too much about idolatry to allow any compromise with it. Instead of urging the people to work within the system for change, he called them into a fight to destroy the system of Baal worship. In every Camp Meeting, District Conference, Sectional Rally, General Conference, we need Hezekiahs to preach Television out of the homes and out of our midst. When is the last time you heard consistency in meeting after meeting of preaching against television? Not just a test of leadership, but a test of membership.

God did not call us to pastor just our platform or leadership. He called us to pastor our church. Leaders originate in the pew. We don’t have a mandate to have a big church as much as we have a mandate for a clean church. If that seems too strong, it probably explains why some are scratching their heads in denial or bewilderment. They are asking themselves the questions; What happened to us? Is it really this bad? Hezekiah’s supreme loyalty to Jehovah was not only an attack against idolatry, but it was a sweeping and crushing condemnation of his own father’s conduct and decisions. Hezekiah even dared to touch the most venerable relic that for eight centuries had been viewed and preserved as the nation’s most sacred memorial. I am talking about the Brazen Serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness. That which was innocent, even commendable in itself, had to be abandoned. As treasured and innocent as it was, it had become an idol. It was impossible to disassociate it from wickedness. Even now it is impossible to disassociate television from idolatry.

Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved. Hezekiah refused to call it the “Brazen Serpent”. Instead, he used the euphemism, “A piece of brass”. I ask this question. Can an institution, once used by God to point people to Christ, be reduced to just a piece of brass? God forbid! Let time be our judge. Better yet, for our sakes, allow history to judge us now.

Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor

[chseeads]

You think that's a wonderful letter because it names TV as a sin, and so you log onto the Internet to post this wonderful letter about the horrible idol of TV.

Puh-leeze.

[RevBuddy]

Sorry, but this brother should not be the spokesman for the Tulsa folks. He's argument is confused and disoriented. To follow his logic, every modern invention is sin...simply because it exists.

Automobiles, tractors, mowers, household appliances, tools, radio, et al. I'm sorry, but no sell here, Brother Pitman.

[pelathais]

You think that's a wonderful letter because it names TV as a sin, and so you log onto the Internet to post this wonderful letter about the horrible idol of TV.

Puh-leeze.
Bowing down to a dangerous monitor screen to condemn another, potentially far less harmful screen?

[RandyWayne]

......oh the evils of our new Kitchen-Aid blender!

It does get a bit ludicrous. (a bit??)

[RevBuddy]

RW...you don't know the evil that lurks in a Kitchen-Aid!!!

My Lord!!!!!!!!!

[Sweet Pea]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008
Dear Minister Friends:
“A Piece of Brass”
In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp. ..........

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor

Seems to me that Jesus himself talked about this issue - but I don't recall him ever saying anything about television.... hm-m-m-m-m-m-m-

And as far as "idols" go - I've always been of the opinion that ANYTHING that comes between me and my relationship with the Lord can be an idol. That would include golf, hunting, fishing, shopping, internet, expensive clothing, cars.... well to be perfectly frank, the list could go on and on and on. :stirpot

And the ironic thing about all this is.... I'm not convinced that Res 4 is such a great thing - :ohplease

[AGAPE]

Any Biblical response??? Is it unfair to ask for scriptures???

[Raven]

Seems to me that Jesus himself talked about this issue - but I don't recall him ever saying anything about television.... hm-m-m-m-m-m-m-

And as far as "idols" go - I've always been of the opinion that ANYTHING that comes between me and my relationship with the Lord can be an idol. That would include golf, hunting, fishing, shopping, internet, expensive clothing, cars.... well to be perfectly frank, the list could go on and on and on. :stirpot

And the ironic thing about all this is.... I'm not convinced that Res 4 is such a great thing - :ohplease

Ease up on that hunting and fishing SweetPea. You're getting too close to home now.

[chseeads]

Even now it is impossible to disassociate television from idolatry.
Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved.

I think that statement is a bit of a stretch.... Most people are probably not that gullible to think that TV advertising is the answer to bringing the gospel to the world and saving it. It's just another form of medium, like anything else......

[chseeads]

Any Biblical response??? Is it unfair to ask for scriptures???

If you weren't talking about it on the Internet, then there would probably be some Biblical responses given that would be against TV....but we can't talk about that on here, because then we'd be hypocrites. :tvhappy

[Hesetmefree238]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008

Dear Minister Friends:

“A Piece of Brass”
In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp.

While maintaining a right spirit and a clean heart, I have somewhat to say. Not long ago I came across a term called “Iconoclast”. Iconoclast means Image destroyer. One who opposes the veneration of images or idols. One who attacks beliefs, ideals, or institutions that support such activity. There was a religious party that made this popular in the 8th and 9th century by their opposition to the use of icons. While our times seem to call for “Political Correctness” by some and others leaning on the manual for guidance and direction, allow some of us to stand on the unchanging Word of God. The Bible is replete with scriptures on idolatry. God calls it an Abomination. He abhors it. He never supported, embraced, sympathized, or aligned himself with, nations that did. The Old Testament term is idolatry. The New Testament term is covetousness. Colossians 3:5… which is idolatry.

I humbly submit this question. If Jesus Christ walked in this earth today, would He join or support any fellowship or organization that endorsed idols in any shape or form? This letter is a call for unity. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. We need to continue to love Truth more than people. Truth reigns supreme above all men, governments, and nations. If need be, we stand alone. This is not about remaining a loyal citizen to this nation of diverse laws and peoples, but it is about our supreme love for Truth. I am a team player as long as I am on God’s team.

I have heard the weak apostate cry that television is still prohibited for our ministers to own. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. One man so aptly put it “You want the banana without the peel”. In scripture, we are reminded of Hezekiah. He was one of the royal reformers of his day. Yes, reformers. You see, iconoclasm is not reformation. It is not enough that we extirpate the false and evil. We must supplant it or replace it with true and good.

There are some dreamy theorists who argue that evil and good, like the tares and wheat, should be allowed to grow together. True virtue can only be found in the resistance of evil and in our own perpetual wrestlings with sin and evil. It is for the purpose of developing strength and mastery. There is some truth to this but not enough to redeem the argument of God’s command to separate from idolaters. His judgment falls on them that do these things or have pleasure (fellowship) with them that do these things. Romans 1:32. The truth is that there are things in which Truth and virtue cannot maintain a successful contest. There may be rare individual cases, but the church at large; NO. To hold in one’s bosom a serpent long enough is to incur a deadly bite.

Hezekiah had known too much about idolatry to allow any compromise with it. Instead of urging the people to work within the system for change, he called them into a fight to destroy the system of Baal worship. In every Camp Meeting, District Conference, Sectional Rally, General Conference, we need Hezekiahs to preach Television out of the homes and out of our midst. When is the last time you heard consistency in meeting after meeting of preaching against television? Not just a test of leadership, but a test of membership.

God did not call us to pastor just our platform or leadership. He called us to pastor our church. Leaders originate in the pew. We don’t have a mandate to have a big church as much as we have a mandate for a clean church. If that seems too strong, it probably explains why some are scratching their heads in denial or bewilderment. They are asking themselves the questions; What happened to us? Is it really this bad? Hezekiah’s supreme loyalty to Jehovah was not only an attack against idolatry, but it was a sweeping and crushing condemnation of his own father’s conduct and decisions. Hezekiah even dared to touch the most venerable relic that for eight centuries had been viewed and preserved as the nation’s most sacred memorial. I am talking about the Brazen Serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness. That which was innocent, even commendable in itself, had to be abandoned. As treasured and innocent as it was, it had become an idol. It was impossible to disassociate it from wickedness. Even now it is impossible to disassociate television from idolatry.

Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved. Hezekiah refused to call it the “Brazen Serpent”. Instead, he used the euphemism, “A piece of brass”. I ask this question. Can an institution, once used by God to point people to Christ, be reduced to just a piece of brass? God forbid! Let time be our judge. Better yet, for our sakes, allow history to judge us now.

Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor

I'm sorry, but that sounds like wood, hay, and stubble to me.

[Mrs. LPW]

Any Biblical response??? Is it unfair to ask for scriptures???

There are no scriptures that deal with modern technology I'm afraid.. unless you count the prophecy's of a bird protecting Israel which we take to mean an airforce.

There are scriptures to do with setting no evil thing before our eyes... thinking on things that are good... etc.

But to call an object such as a TV, Radio, Computer, Race Car, Baseball Bat... you name it.... an idol... Well, I agree with the previous poster... anything can become an idol. Anything can be misused...

[Mrs. LPW]

I think that statement is a bit of a stretch.... Most people are probably not that gullible to think that TV advertising is the answer to bringing the gospel to the world and saving it. It's just another form of medium, like anything else......

If tv was the camel that broke the straws back that was one weak camel.
I think the folks who've left, left over much more than the tv advertising issue. JMHO and I could be entirely wrong.

[chseeads]

I've heard the Scripture that talks about "the cage of every hateful and unclean bird" (can't remember if that's the exact words) being used as referring to TV.

But to be anywhere remotely near consistent, you'd have to agree that there's hateful birds on the internet too. lol

[anapko]

If tv was the camel that broke the straws back that was one weak camel.
I think the folks who've left, left over much more than the tv advertising issue. JMHO and I could be entirely wrong.


Excellant point Mrs! I couldn't have said it better myself!

[chseeads]

They'd already swallowed several camels, this was just the gnat that gagged them.

[PastorD]

Sorry, but this brother should not be the spokesman for the Tulsa folks. He's argument is confused and disoriented. To follow his logic, every modern invention is sin...simply because it exists.

Automobiles, tractors, mowers, household appliances, tools, radio, et al. I'm sorry, but no sell here, Brother Pitman.


Could they not get a spokesman someone has heard of? :blah

Probably the cake-taking statement for me was that "It is time for us to love truth more than people."

What good is truth if you have no one to believe it. Typical hate......

[KarenJo]

ANYTHING can become an idol.....this is all about power and politics!!

[Sister Alvear]

We recieved a copy of the letter...

[AmazingGrace]

Could they not get a spokesman someone has heard of? :blah

Probably the cake-taking statement for me was that "It is time for us to love truth more than people."

What good is truth if you have no one to believe it. Typical hate......

You asked both questions I was going to ask here.. too funny! I was talking to someone today and they mentioned your first question... They said the reason they cant get someone reputable to write a letter is because they are too busy out trying to beg people over. This whole thing isnt as it looks. Many are walking away now because of all the lies. Its becoming a big joke. There have been a few personal letters sent also by certain ones who were on the list wrongly... and those letters would be a real eye opener for sure. One day when this whole thing is brought to light it will shock some. As my husband told one of the members who isnt a member member... (if that made sense lol) Those who have had these things happening already should not keep these letters on the personal level but should write it and let it be heard by all so others will know exactly what these "men of God" are doing.

[Joseph Miller]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008

Dear Minister Friends:

“A Piece of Brass”
In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp.

While maintaining a right spirit and a clean heart, I have somewhat to say. Not long ago I came across a term called “Iconoclast”. Iconoclast means Image destroyer. One who opposes the veneration of images or idols. One who attacks beliefs, ideals, or institutions that support such activity. There was a religious party that made this popular in the 8th and 9th century by their opposition to the use of icons. While our times seem to call for “Political Correctness” by some and others leaning on the manual for guidance and direction, allow some of us to stand on the unchanging Word of God. The Bible is replete with scriptures on idolatry. God calls it an Abomination. He abhors it. He never supported, embraced, sympathized, or aligned himself with, nations that did. The Old Testament term is idolatry. The New Testament term is covetousness. Colossians 3:5… which is idolatry.

I humbly submit this question. If Jesus Christ walked in this earth today, would He join or support any fellowship or organization that endorsed idols in any shape or form? This letter is a call for unity. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. We need to continue to love Truth more than people. Truth reigns supreme above all men, governments, and nations. If need be, we stand alone. This is not about remaining a loyal citizen to this nation of diverse laws and peoples, but it is about our supreme love for Truth. I am a team player as long as I am on God’s team.

I have heard the weak apostate cry that television is still prohibited for our ministers to own. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. One man so aptly put it “You want the banana without the peel”. In scripture, we are reminded of Hezekiah. He was one of the royal reformers of his day. Yes, reformers. You see, iconoclasm is not reformation. It is not enough that we extirpate the false and evil. We must supplant it or replace it with true and good.

There are some dreamy theorists who argue that evil and good, like the tares and wheat, should be allowed to grow together. True virtue can only be found in the resistance of evil and in our own perpetual wrestlings with sin and evil. It is for the purpose of developing strength and mastery. There is some truth to this but not enough to redeem the argument of God’s command to separate from idolaters. His judgment falls on them that do these things or have pleasure (fellowship) with them that do these things. Romans 1:32. The truth is that there are things in which Truth and virtue cannot maintain a successful contest. There may be rare individual cases, but the church at large; NO. To hold in one’s bosom a serpent long enough is to incur a deadly bite.

Hezekiah had known too much about idolatry to allow any compromise with it. Instead of urging the people to work within the system for change, he called them into a fight to destroy the system of Baal worship. In every Camp Meeting, District Conference, Sectional Rally, General Conference, we need Hezekiahs to preach Television out of the homes and out of our midst. When is the last time you heard consistency in meeting after meeting of preaching against television? Not just a test of leadership, but a test of membership.

God did not call us to pastor just our platform or leadership. He called us to pastor our church. Leaders originate in the pew. We don’t have a mandate to have a big church as much as we have a mandate for a clean church. If that seems too strong, it probably explains why some are scratching their heads in denial or bewilderment. They are asking themselves the questions; What happened to us? Is it really this bad? Hezekiah’s supreme loyalty to Jehovah was not only an attack against idolatry, but it was a sweeping and crushing condemnation of his own father’s conduct and decisions. Hezekiah even dared to touch the most venerable relic that for eight centuries had been viewed and preserved as the nation’s most sacred memorial. I am talking about the Brazen Serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness. That which was innocent, even commendable in itself, had to be abandoned. As treasured and innocent as it was, it had become an idol. It was impossible to disassociate it from wickedness. Even now it is impossible to disassociate television from idolatry.

Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved. Hezekiah refused to call it the “Brazen Serpent”. Instead, he used the euphemism, “A piece of brass”. I ask this question. Can an institution, once used by God to point people to Christ, be reduced to just a piece of brass? God forbid! Let time be our judge. Better yet, for our sakes, allow history to judge us now.

Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor


So you think this is a good letter????????

You must not have read the letters by JJ, KH, GM, MJ or even SG. They were good letters. They made sense. They put things in proper prespective. This is NOT a "good" letter.

[AmazingGrace]

So you think this is a good letter????????

You must not have read the letters by JJ, KH, GM, MJ or even SG. They were good letters. They made sense. They put things in proper prespective. This is NOT a "good" letter.

For some in their own crazy way... and its very obvious by the poster not much more need be said.. HELLO!!!!! :drama

[Joseph Miller]

This is a GREAT letter.

January 8, 2008

Johnny Godair, Kenny Godair, Larry Booker, Floyd Odom, Crawford Coon, N.J. Wilson, (sent to other concerned Ministers)



Dear Brethren:

Please forgive me, but I feel I MUST write this to you and allow others that are involved read my sentiments. If I were 30 years old, I could never write this letter; but I am 63 now and contemporary with all of you. I have shared a wonderful relationship and friendship with most of you and my heart is deeply grieved, to say the least. I do not consider myself higher or deeper in holiness than anyone else. I seek the Lord earnestly every day and ask for His Precious Blood to cover me. Just last Sunday I preached, “Cleanse Me” – “Search me oh God, and know my heart…..see if there be any wicked way in me”. I must be saved!

Brethren, I have always had great love and respect for all of you.

Brother Odom – we have known one another for years and we’ve been on a first name basis. Your ministry has been incredible in our movement and you have a special gift. Your life has been impeccable.

Brother Johnny Godair – from the time we ‘connected’ in Manila at the World Conference there has been a special love and deep admiration between us. Few men have impacted the movement or a city as you have.

Brother Crawford Coon – there is just no way that I can describe to you the love and respect we have had for your ministry, and the times we have spent together in Camp Meetings, your home and church, and elsewhere have been so awesome.

Brother Larry Booker – you have always been to us the gentle giant, with the big heart, and incredible ministry in our movement.

Brother Kenny Godair – you have had a dynamic ministry and your stand for holiness and righteousness is well known.

Brother Wilson – Sister Mallory and I had the privilege of working closely with you for more than 5 years, my middle son for 20 years. Two of my sons married girls from your church. We have had unbelievable times of close fellowship and dreams together. Men outside marveled that two strong men could get along so well together. In all the time we were together, not one unkind word passed between us. You were a perfect gentleman to me and my family and we will always appreciate that.

So, I want it understood from the outset that I have great love for you men. I do not wish to accuse you of ulterior motives. I know you have felt strongly about the passing of the resolution. I have consistently voted with you every time it came up for a vote. However, what is happening at present appears to be the forming of an unholy alliance that will surely fail. You can say, “Who is he to say these things to us”? Right now, I must take the risk, because I cannot tell you how deeply I feel that what you are insisting happen is wrong and doomed for failure. This is not what I ‘think’. This is what I know! Two wrongs don’t ever make a right, and there are several things that are just plain wrong.

It is wrong to break up families over this. I have heard all of the arguments that this is about more than TV and that our movement is full of make-up and all kinds of worldliness, and that many of our young preacher’s don’t even believe the New Birth anymore. I think I’m about as well traveled as any of you, and although we will always be fighting against the world and its influence just as Paul did, the UPCI is full of Godly men and women, both old and young, that have an intense love for this Truth. I have been incredibly encouraged as I’ve traveled in so-called liberal and conservative churches and found men following hard after Truth and Holiness more than ever before. Our Fundamental Doctrine and Articles of Faith are totally intact. We are the strongest and most powerful Apostolic movement on earth and the potential for this revelation coming to the masses has never been greater. The UPCI will always struggle to keep the world out. Sorry, but I happen to know people that said they are going to Tulsa that have a real problem with the world themselves. These are problems we all face.

Would you agree that it is wrong to lie or misrepresent? When one of the Philippine Dream Team Captains gave an interview to a recent World Report, I pointed out to the Chairman of Pentecom, and to Brother Wilson, that the article was totally bogus and just plain wrong, and that a similar report in the same magazine in 2004 contradicted the later article. This isn’t a little white lie we are talking about here. This is the most blatantly untrue article I have ever seen in print, in the church, in all my years in ministry. I never did hear from the Dream Teamer, whom I challenged directly, but only from Brother Wilson who wrote a short E-mail telling me that the mix-up was because they were ‘between editors’. Does that explain the article full of falsehoods? And instead of calling me, someone called Brother Art Martinez from the Philippines, to verify or not, the article. Everyone now knows that the article was totally false. And yet the ‘Dream Teamer’ is listed on your website as a member of your Foreign Missions Committee. Is this the kind of leadership that is forming in your organization that some of you have even denied is an organization? And is this consistent with an ‘Apostolic Alternative’?

Do you think it is right to be calling pastors all over the country talking to them for hours at a time trying to convince them to be a part of the ‘Alternative’? I have personally had men call me to tell me they had been offered positions on Counsels or Committees and then were surprised to see their names show up on lists that they never approved. One told me that he felt like he was being ‘bought’. I have seen letters from some of you that seemed to indicate you would not do what you are now doing. Whether it is the intent or not, this is causing confusion in the minds of some and in the ones I’ve talked to, has caused them to change their minds about Tulsa. It seems to me if the ‘Alternative’ is necessary and viable that men would be clamoring to be a part and that you wouldn’t have to resort to a ‘Full Court Press’ to try to convince men to come. This is not a ‘movement’ that is starting. This appears to be a desperate attempt to divide the body.

As long as I can remember, the UPCI has been a movement that has granted great liberty to preach, teach, publish, etc. We are a diverse group and there is strength in diversity, but not in disunity. Diversity without unity is like having eggs, flour, shorting, sugar, etc. on a plate and calling it a cake. You don’t have a cake until everything is blended together. This is why within the UPCI structure you can have meetings like PSR (West Coast), Landmark, Impact, No Limits, East Coast, Because of the Times, Steadfast, on and on. Many of these meetings and others will continue to evolve where the convictions and hearts of men can be dispensed with no strings attached. And the passing of the resolution has not negatively impacted these meetings or my local church even one iota. But local church members, who do not understand what is going on, have been stirred and unsettled because this Tulsa news has filtered out. When you have all of these meetings where men can still get together and preach their convictions and concerns, you tell me….why do we need Tulsa? You may like me or hate me….obviously I am not running for political office here. As I see it, the ‘Alternative’ is not about Holiness….it’s about politics.

Now, I am not naïve, I know that you six have crossed over the line, the dye has been cast, and you cannot be un-convinced. But I will still boldly suggest for you brethren to reconsider what you are doing. How can you possibly believe that you can now have more influence for preaching righteousness and holiness from outside the body. We need to stay together!

Lastly, since the birth of Ruth and Verena Cady in 1984, they have shared much. They shared the same womb before their birth, and the same room after birth. But the bond between Ruthie and Verena goes even further. They share the same heart. Their bodies are fused together from the sternum to the waist. Though they have separate nervous systems and distinct personalities, they are sustained by the same, singular three chamber heart. Neither could survive without the other. Since separation is not an option, cooperation becomes an obligation. They’ve learned to make up for each other’s weaknesses. Brethren, we need each other! You may feel that what you are doing is irreversible, but that’s not true.

This may have been an effort in futility as far as you responding , but if it helps others to see things a little more clearly and understand that our potential as a movement toward holiness and evangelism is now stronger than it’s ever been, I’ll be happy.

Yours in His Service,

Gordon Mallory

[Apprehended]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008

Dear Minister Friends:



Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor

It appears to me that this man's closing paragraph indicates that he has an idol built up in his mind. The idol is the man's own perception of what is "truth" as he directly relates it to the use/nonuse of television. His idol is not that of truth but instead his own perception of truth. He is a worshipper of his own notions of truth.

Pure truth absent of the love of God is a bright, bright day of sun-bathed light. It is beautiful to look upon. But, without the heat, the warmth of the same sounce of the light, to warm the earth, the ground is frozen hard, the trees are leafless, the grass is dead and the earth is unable to yield its fruit. All the light of truth is lifeless without the heat of the love of God to spring forth the life of the seed in the earth.

The man contends not for truth, but instead, he is contending for only his perception of truth...an IDOL...his own idol. But, don't tell him that. He would think thee mad.

[seguidordejesus]

This letter is ridiculous. He puts TV advertising as more important than whether someone is committing adultery? That's really what the "diverse" views of divorce and remarriage are all about! Give me a break!

[pelathais]

Any Biblical response??? Is it unfair to ask for scriptures???
It's a little hard to find a scripture for television that doesn't include the Internet. Maybe you could help me out here?

[tv1a]

Watch out. A legalist can't stand it when you point the obvious. The Pittman Pout had nothing to offer.

If you weren't talking about it on the Internet, then there would probably be some Biblical responses given that would be against TV....but we can't talk about that on here, because then we'd be hypocrites. :tvhappy

[tv1a]

It proves he believes his own dillusion. It's the brazen serpent syndrome.

It appears to me that this man's closing paragraph indicates that he has an idol built up in his mind. The idol is the man's own perception of what is "truth" as he directly relates it to the use/nonuse of television. His idol is not that of truth but instead his own perception of truth. He is a worshipper of his own notions of truth.

Pure truth absent of the love of God is a bright, bright day of sun-bathed light. It is beautiful to look upon. But, without the heat, the warmth of the same sounce of the light, to warm the earth, the ground is frozen hard, the trees are leafless, the grass is dead and the earth is unable to yield its fruit. All the light of truth is lifeless without the heat of the love of God to spring forth the life of the seed in the earth.

The man contends not for truth, but instead, he is contending for only his perception of truth...an IDOL...his own idol. But, don't tell him that. He would think thee mad.

[Michael Phelps]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008

Dear Minister Friends:

“A Piece of Brass”
In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp.

While maintaining a right spirit and a clean heart, I have somewhat to say. Not long ago I came across a term called “Iconoclast”. Iconoclast means Image destroyer. One who opposes the veneration of images or idols. One who attacks beliefs, ideals, or institutions that support such activity. There was a religious party that made this popular in the 8th and 9th century by their opposition to the use of icons. While our times seem to call for “Political Correctness” by some and others leaning on the manual for guidance and direction, allow some of us to stand on the unchanging Word of God. The Bible is replete with scriptures on idolatry. God calls it an Abomination. He abhors it. He never supported, embraced, sympathized, or aligned himself with, nations that did. The Old Testament term is idolatry. The New Testament term is covetousness. Colossians 3:5… which is idolatry.

I humbly submit this question. If Jesus Christ walked in this earth today, would He join or support any fellowship or organization that endorsed idols in any shape or form? This letter is a call for unity. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. We need to continue to love Truth more than people. Truth reigns supreme above all men, governments, and nations. If need be, we stand alone. This is not about remaining a loyal citizen to this nation of diverse laws and peoples, but it is about our supreme love for Truth. I am a team player as long as I am on God’s team.

I have heard the weak apostate cry that television is still prohibited for our ministers to own. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. One man so aptly put it “You want the banana without the peel”. In scripture, we are reminded of Hezekiah. He was one of the royal reformers of his day. Yes, reformers. You see, iconoclasm is not reformation. It is not enough that we extirpate the false and evil. We must supplant it or replace it with true and good.

There are some dreamy theorists who argue that evil and good, like the tares and wheat, should be allowed to grow together. True virtue can only be found in the resistance of evil and in our own perpetual wrestlings with sin and evil. It is for the purpose of developing strength and mastery. There is some truth to this but not enough to redeem the argument of God’s command to separate from idolaters. His judgment falls on them that do these things or have pleasure (fellowship) with them that do these things. Romans 1:32. The truth is that there are things in which Truth and virtue cannot maintain a successful contest. There may be rare individual cases, but the church at large; NO. To hold in one’s bosom a serpent long enough is to incur a deadly bite.

Hezekiah had known too much about idolatry to allow any compromise with it. Instead of urging the people to work within the system for change, he called them into a fight to destroy the system of Baal worship. In every Camp Meeting, District Conference, Sectional Rally, General Conference, we need Hezekiahs to preach Television out of the homes and out of our midst. When is the last time you heard consistency in meeting after meeting of preaching against television? Not just a test of leadership, but a test of membership.

God did not call us to pastor just our platform or leadership. He called us to pastor our church. Leaders originate in the pew. We don’t have a mandate to have a big church as much as we have a mandate for a clean church. If that seems too strong, it probably explains why some are scratching their heads in denial or bewilderment. They are asking themselves the questions; What happened to us? Is it really this bad? Hezekiah’s supreme loyalty to Jehovah was not only an attack against idolatry, but it was a sweeping and crushing condemnation of his own father’s conduct and decisions. Hezekiah even dared to touch the most venerable relic that for eight centuries had been viewed and preserved as the nation’s most sacred memorial. I am talking about the Brazen Serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness. That which was innocent, even commendable in itself, had to be abandoned. As treasured and innocent as it was, it had become an idol. It was impossible to disassociate it from wickedness. Even now it is impossible to disassociate television from idolatry.

Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved. Hezekiah refused to call it the “Brazen Serpent”. Instead, he used the euphemism, “A piece of brass”. I ask this question. Can an institution, once used by God to point people to Christ, be reduced to just a piece of brass? God forbid! Let time be our judge. Better yet, for our sakes, allow history to judge us now.

Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor

I think it's funny that he calls TV a "sin", but allows that it's ok to have different viewpoints in divorce. Just goes to show how skewed some folks' thinking is.

[Michael Phelps]

This is a GREAT letter.

January 8, 2008

Johnny Godair, Kenny Godair, Larry Booker, Floyd Odom, Crawford Coon, N.J. Wilson, (sent to other concerned Ministers)



Dear Brethren:

Please forgive me, but I feel I MUST write this to you and allow others that are involved read my sentiments. If I were 30 years old, I could never write this letter; but I am 63 now and contemporary with all of you. I have shared a wonderful relationship and friendship with most of you and my heart is deeply grieved, to say the least. I do not consider myself higher or deeper in holiness than anyone else. I seek the Lord earnestly every day and ask for His Precious Blood to cover me. Just last Sunday I preached, “Cleanse Me” – “Search me oh God, and know my heart…..see if there be any wicked way in me”. I must be saved!

Brethren, I have always had great love and respect for all of you.

Brother Odom – we have known one another for years and we’ve been on a first name basis. Your ministry has been incredible in our movement and you have a special gift. Your life has been impeccable.

Brother Johnny Godair – from the time we ‘connected’ in Manila at the World Conference there has been a special love and deep admiration between us. Few men have impacted the movement or a city as you have.

Brother Crawford Coon – there is just no way that I can describe to you the love and respect we have had for your ministry, and the times we have spent together in Camp Meetings, your home and church, and elsewhere have been so awesome.

Brother Larry Booker – you have always been to us the gentle giant, with the big heart, and incredible ministry in our movement.

Brother Kenny Godair – you have had a dynamic ministry and your stand for holiness and righteousness is well known.

Brother Wilson – Sister Mallory and I had the privilege of working closely with you for more than 5 years, my middle son for 20 years. Two of my sons married girls from your church. We have had unbelievable times of close fellowship and dreams together. Men outside marveled that two strong men could get along so well together. In all the time we were together, not one unkind word passed between us. You were a perfect gentleman to me and my family and we will always appreciate that.

So, I want it understood from the outset that I have great love for you men. I do not wish to accuse you of ulterior motives. I know you have felt strongly about the passing of the resolution. I have consistently voted with you every time it came up for a vote. However, what is happening at present appears to be the forming of an unholy alliance that will surely fail. You can say, “Who is he to say these things to us”? Right now, I must take the risk, because I cannot tell you how deeply I feel that what you are insisting happen is wrong and doomed for failure. This is not what I ‘think’. This is what I know! Two wrongs don’t ever make a right, and there are several things that are just plain wrong.

It is wrong to break up families over this. I have heard all of the arguments that this is about more than TV and that our movement is full of make-up and all kinds of worldliness, and that many of our young preacher’s don’t even believe the New Birth anymore. I think I’m about as well traveled as any of you, and although we will always be fighting against the world and its influence just as Paul did, the UPCI is full of Godly men and women, both old and young, that have an intense love for this Truth. I have been incredibly encouraged as I’ve traveled in so-called liberal and conservative churches and found men following hard after Truth and Holiness more than ever before. Our Fundamental Doctrine and Articles of Faith are totally intact. We are the strongest and most powerful Apostolic movement on earth and the potential for this revelation coming to the masses has never been greater. The UPCI will always struggle to keep the world out. Sorry, but I happen to know people that said they are going to Tulsa that have a real problem with the world themselves. These are problems we all face.

Would you agree that it is wrong to lie or misrepresent? When one of the Philippine Dream Team Captains gave an interview to a recent World Report, I pointed out to the Chairman of Pentecom, and to Brother Wilson, that the article was totally bogus and just plain wrong, and that a similar report in the same magazine in 2004 contradicted the later article. This isn’t a little white lie we are talking about here. This is the most blatantly untrue article I have ever seen in print, in the church, in all my years in ministry. I never did hear from the Dream Teamer, whom I challenged directly, but only from Brother Wilson who wrote a short E-mail telling me that the mix-up was because they were ‘between editors’. Does that explain the article full of falsehoods? And instead of calling me, someone called Brother Art Martinez from the Philippines, to verify or not, the article. Everyone now knows that the article was totally false. And yet the ‘Dream Teamer’ is listed on your website as a member of your Foreign Missions Committee. Is this the kind of leadership that is forming in your organization that some of you have even denied is an organization? And is this consistent with an ‘Apostolic Alternative’?

Do you think it is right to be calling pastors all over the country talking to them for hours at a time trying to convince them to be a part of the ‘Alternative’? I have personally had men call me to tell me they had been offered positions on Counsels or Committees and then were surprised to see their names show up on lists that they never approved. One told me that he felt like he was being ‘bought’. I have seen letters from some of you that seemed to indicate you would not do what you are now doing. Whether it is the intent or not, this is causing confusion in the minds of some and in the ones I’ve talked to, has caused them to change their minds about Tulsa. It seems to me if the ‘Alternative’ is necessary and viable that men would be clamoring to be a part and that you wouldn’t have to resort to a ‘Full Court Press’ to try to convince men to come. This is not a ‘movement’ that is starting. This appears to be a desperate attempt to divide the body.

As long as I can remember, the UPCI has been a movement that has granted great liberty to preach, teach, publish, etc. We are a diverse group and there is strength in diversity, but not in disunity. Diversity without unity is like having eggs, flour, shorting, sugar, etc. on a plate and calling it a cake. You don’t have a cake until everything is blended together. This is why within the UPCI structure you can have meetings like PSR (West Coast), Landmark, Impact, No Limits, East Coast, Because of the Times, Steadfast, on and on. Many of these meetings and others will continue to evolve where the convictions and hearts of men can be dispensed with no strings attached. And the passing of the resolution has not negatively impacted these meetings or my local church even one iota. But local church members, who do not understand what is going on, have been stirred and unsettled because this Tulsa news has filtered out. When you have all of these meetings where men can still get together and preach their convictions and concerns, you tell me….why do we need Tulsa? You may like me or hate me….obviously I am not running for political office here. As I see it, the ‘Alternative’ is not about Holiness….it’s about politics.

Now, I am not naïve, I know that you six have crossed over the line, the dye has been cast, and you cannot be un-convinced. But I will still boldly suggest for you brethren to reconsider what you are doing. How can you possibly believe that you can now have more influence for preaching righteousness and holiness from outside the body. We need to stay together!

Lastly, since the birth of Ruth and Verena Cady in 1984, they have shared much. They shared the same womb before their birth, and the same room after birth. But the bond between Ruthie and Verena goes even further. They share the same heart. Their bodies are fused together from the sternum to the waist. Though they have separate nervous systems and distinct personalities, they are sustained by the same, singular three chamber heart. Neither could survive without the other. Since separation is not an option, cooperation becomes an obligation. They’ve learned to make up for each other’s weaknesses. Brethren, we need each other! You may feel that what you are doing is irreversible, but that’s not true.

This may have been an effort in futility as far as you responding , but if it helps others to see things a little more clearly and understand that our potential as a movement toward holiness and evangelism is now stronger than it’s ever been, I’ll be happy.

Yours in His Service,

Gordon Mallory

Now THIS is a great letter!!!!!!!

[AGAPE]

GM has changed sides many times....

"...a double minded man...."

[AGAPE]

I know Elder Pitman...

He is NOT pro-tulsa he is ANTI-tv...

And his views on divorce and remarriage would send most of you packing....

regardless...TRUTH preaching preachers have always stood against TV...

now it seems that some love the "traditions of men" (read here ORG) more than the "commandments of God"!

Same bunch that is okay with tv is okay with jewelry, women cutting their hair, men having long hair, divorce & remarriage, etc

[Ferd]

Well, he did use the word Iconclast in context. He gets points for that I suppose.


Agape, I love you my brother. Truely i do. All my life Ive been an Apostolic.
I know no other way, nor have I any desire to find any other way. I am a TRUTH preaching preacher. I dont stand against TV.

I do stand for the Apostolic Oneness message with all my heart.

As I have said before, I know full well you and I and everyone else will do all in the Name of God. Even when we skewer each other over Television. That is such a sad thing.

[freeatlast]

I was gonna comment on the letter...then I realized I'm not sure how to spell ignerant.

So I'll withold my words of wisdom.

[PastorD]

I know Elder Pitman...

He is NOT pro-tulsa he is ANTI-tv...

And his views on divorce and remarriage would send most of you packing....

regardless...TRUTH preaching preachers have always stood against TV...

now it seems that some love the "traditions of men" (read here ORG) more than the "commandments of God"!

Same bunch that is okay with tv is okay with jewelry, women cutting their hair, men having long hair, divorce & remarriage, etc



Agape....you don't get out much. :ohplease

[Bullwinkle]

Groan......now we've got local licensed guys feeling they have to straighten out the body.

[rgcraig]

Any Biblical response??? Is it unfair to ask for scriptures???

This one seems to fit to me:

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

TV - sin
Internet - not a sin

[PastorD]

Groan......now we've got local licensed guys feeling they have to straighten out the body.

ha.....Is Pittman a local license guy?

[COOPER]

You think that's a wonderful letter because it names TV as a sin, and so you log onto the Internet to post this wonderful letter about the horrible idol of TV.

Puh-leeze.


NO, he called the Manual and loyalty to traditions ,Idolatry!

[freeatlast]

Groan......now we've got local licensed guys feeling they have to straighten out the body.

I would be curious to know the licensing requirements of the licensing organizations?

Agape: what is is required as to educatuion in your licensing organization?

What has been your highest level of education?

[Fab]

It appears to me that this man's closing paragraph indicates that he has an idol built up in his mind. The idol is the man's own perception of what is "truth" as he directly relates it to the use/nonuse of television. His idol is not that of truth but instead his own perception of truth. He is a worshipper of his own notions of truth.

Pure truth absent of the love of God is a bright, bright day of sun-bathed light. It is beautiful to look upon. But, without the heat, the warmth of the same sounce of the light, to warm the earth, the ground is frozen hard, the trees are leafless, the grass is dead and the earth is unable to yield its fruit. All the light of truth is lifeless without the heat of the love of God to spring forth the life of the seed in the earth.

The man contends not for truth, but instead, he is contending for only his perception of truth...an IDOL...his own idol. But, don't tell him that. He would think thee mad.


It would be the "idol of false knowledge." It is in the same context that we limit God just to what we know of Him. We also limit our seeking of God and His truth just to within our self-taught parameters. So, it is easy how our false knowledge becomes an idol to finding out what truth really is.

[StillStanding]

It appears to me that this man's closing paragraph indicates that he has an idol built up in his mind. The idol is the man's own perception of what is "truth" as he directly relates it to the use/nonuse of television. His idol is not that of truth but instead his own perception of truth. He is a worshipper of his own notions of truth.

Pure truth absent of the love of God is a bright, bright day of sun-bathed light. It is beautiful to look upon. But, without the heat, the warmth of the same sounce of the light, to warm the earth, the ground is frozen hard, the trees are leafless, the grass is dead and the earth is unable to yield its fruit. All the light of truth is lifeless without the heat of the love of God to spring forth the life of the seed in the earth.

The man contends not for truth, but instead, he is contending for only his perception of truth...an IDOL...his own idol. But, don't tell him that. He would think thee mad.

Bro. A, I perceive thee to be a wise man and well-spoken. Great post! :thumbsup

[Apprehended]

It would be the "idol of false knowledge." It is in the same context that we limit God just to what we know of Him. We also limit our seeking of God and His truth just to within our self-taught parameters. So, it is easy how our false knowledge becomes an idol to finding out what truth really is.

I agree.

He cannot see his own piece of brass for beholding and magnifying another supposed piece of brass. It is amazing the pieces of brass that men can craft in their own minds, each called truth that is lifted upon a pole for all to see. But, for some strange reason, it brings no life, healing or cure...

They loudly claim with boistrous exhuberance, "No snake like our snake!"

[Apprehended]

Bro. A, I perceive thee to be a wise man and well-spoken. Great post! :thumbsup

Thanks.

But, there are others that hold a different opinion. My own opinion is divided and discredited in that regard. :lol

[Bullwinkle]

ha.....Is Pittman a local license guy?

He is if he is William Pitman from Forest, MS. Never heard of the guy myself.

[Bullwinkle]

I would be curious to know the licensing requirements of the licensing organizations?

Agape: what is is required as to educatuion in your licensing organization?

What has been your highest level of education?

Get a copy of a UPCI manual.
Eddication is evil in some circles.

[Bullwinkle]

OMG! If thats the Pitman this is written by yes he is local lic. and he is also a total ummm he is a very interesting folk to say the least... so the content of this letter should hold no weight even within his own ranks... believe me! And yep I do believe they did! I have met this person a few times and wouldnt be hurt if I never did again!

Sister
I edited my post, evidently after you quoted it - maybe I should have left it. Would you mind editing the quote - I don't want to be too sarcastic.

[Apprehended]

I believe this Pittman is the son of the deceased pastor of Ocean Springs, Miss. who formerly pastored near Bogalusa, La. If it is the same one, I've not seen him since he was a little tyke.

[Old Paths]

Well I see the preacher eating machine is moving along as usual.

[AmazingGrace]

Sister
I edited my post, evidently after you quoted it - maybe I should have left it. Would you mind editing the quote - I don't want to be too sarcastic.

I did... but I still stand behind what I said rofl!

[Old Paths]

I believe this Pittman is the son of the deceased pastor of Ocean Springs, Miss. who formerly pastored near Bogalusa, La. If it is the same one, I've not seen him since he was a little tyke.

You have the wrong guy.

[AGAPE]

Elder Pitman is smiling and winking

[Timmy]

You mean that's a real letter? Not a spoof? :blink

[AGAPE]

So now to be able to write a letter you must
1. Have a higher card than local??
2. Have a degreed education????

So Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men??

[Bullwinkle]

Elder Pitman is smiling and winking

You use the term elder loosely.

[chseeads]

Elder Pitman is smiling and winking

Well I hope he's not on the computer, because that's probably a sin and he's probably going to hell if so. :tvhappy

[Wink]

So now to be able to write a letter you must
1. Have a higher card than local??
2. Have a degreed education????

So Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men??

i think the issue here is visibility. People will accept correspondence more readily from
someone they know or know of.

Thats why i never call a press conference. Nobody would show up

[MissBrattified]

In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp.

In this very first paragraph, he loses his credibility. There are many ministers who DO believe it is a sin to drink wine and a sin to divorce and remarry, yet he writes these views off as if they are nothing in comparison to tv advertisement.

While maintaining a right spirit and a clean heart, I have somewhat to say. Not long ago I came across a term called “Iconoclast”. Iconoclast means Image destroyer. One who opposes the veneration of images or idols. One who attacks beliefs, ideals, or institutions that support such activity. There was a religious party that made this popular in the 8th and 9th century by their opposition to the use of icons. While our times seem to call for “Political Correctness” by some and others leaning on the manual for guidance and direction, allow some of us to stand on the unchanging Word of God. The Bible is replete with scriptures on idolatry. God calls it an Abomination. He abhors it. He never supported, embraced, sympathized, or aligned himself with, nations that did. The Old Testament term is idolatry. The New Testament term is covetousness. Colossians 3:5… which is idolatry.

I humbly submit this question. If Jesus Christ walked in this earth today, would He join or support any fellowship or organization that endorsed idols in any shape or form? This letter is a call for unity. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. We need to continue to love Truth more than people. Truth reigns supreme above all men, governments, and nations. If need be, we stand alone. This is not about remaining a loyal citizen to this nation of diverse laws and peoples, but it is about our supreme love for Truth. I am a team player as long as I am on God’s team.

While this section includes some excellent scripture and biblical points, it lacks the needful conclusion, which is that television is an idol, in and of itself, at the very least any more so than radio or the internet. Yes, God disapproves of idolatry. But the missing link is: Television is an idol. In order to argue that one shouldn’t advertise on tv because it is idolatry, you must not only show that God disapproves of idolatry (a point we all agree on), but also that television comprises an idol, or false god.

There are some dreamy theorists who argue that evil and good, like the tares and wheat, should be allowed to grow together. True virtue can only be found in the resistance of evil and in our own perpetual wrestlings with sin and evil. It is for the purpose of developing strength and mastery. There is some truth to this but not enough to redeem the argument of God’s command to separate from idolaters. His judgment falls on them that do these things or have pleasure (fellowship) with them that do these things. Romans 1:32. The truth is that there are things in which Truth and virtue cannot maintain a successful contest. There may be rare individual cases, but the church at large; NO. To hold in one’s bosom a serpent long enough is to incur a deadly bite.

Dreamy theorists? I thought JESUS said this: Matthew 13:30 “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Furthermore, again, one must find a clear indicator that a man who advertises on television is a “tare.” Since this can’t be shown, this is a moot point. What a ridiculous comparison, anyway. Many of these men have forgotten that there are ALJC brethren who have advertised on tv for years! Way to slander your brethren, guys.

Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Really? Truth needs no defense? Isn’t that what this entire letter has been about? Standing for truth and against “idolatry”? Make up your mind, boys.

This letter isn’t a good representation of anyone’s side. I wouldn’t have even shared it, AGAPE. It lacks good, sound reasoning, and proper application of scripture.

[MissBrattified]

I would be curious to know the licensing requirements of the licensing organizations?

Agape: what is is required as to educatuion in your licensing organization?

What has been your highest level of education?

freeatlast, I don't know if you're making a point or just being curious, but higher education should not be a strict stipulation, IMO. God can and does use common people to accomplish great things. Wisdom comes from God, not college. I'm all for education, but I am not for limiting ministry to those who have college degrees.

[Apprehended]

You have the wrong guy.

Probably so.

It's been too many years...

The now deceased bro. Pittman's first name was "Joe."

[Apprehended]

So now to be able to write a letter you must
1. Have a higher card than local??
2. Have a degreed education????

So Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men??

Being both unlearned and ignorant is not a commendable mark of distinction or a qualification worthy of honorable mention...unless of course, one can be used of God inspite of it. But even then, it is mentioned as a barrier that must be overcome as did Peter and John. Certainly, it was not said of them as a something complimentary.

[StillStanding]

Some idolize a religious holiness stand! :eek:

[Wink]

I know Elder Pitman...

He is NOT pro-tulsa he is ANTI-tv...

And his views on divorce and remarriage would send most of you packing....

regardless...TRUTH preaching preachers have always stood against TV...

now it seems that some love the "traditions of men" (read here ORG) more than the "commandments of God"!

Same bunch that is okay with tv is okay with jewelry, women cutting their hair, men having long hair, divorce & remarriage, etc


so are you saying that any preacher that has or has allowed tv are not preaching truth?

So everyone that has a tv will eventually wear jewelry and cut their hair or men will grow it out or get divorced?

[chseeads]

so are you saying that any preacher that has or has allowed tv are not preaching truth?


Yep, that's what he's saying. :shhh

[DividedThigh]

this is really just to sad for words, we are now equating tv with idolatry and if we cant control people then they are just done, what a shame, imho, dt

[Whole Hearted]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008

Dear Minister Friends:

“A Piece of Brass”
In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp.

While maintaining a right spirit and a clean heart, I have somewhat to say. Not long ago I came across a term called “Iconoclast”. Iconoclast means Image destroyer. One who opposes the veneration of images or idols. One who attacks beliefs, ideals, or institutions that support such activity. There was a religious party that made this popular in the 8th and 9th century by their opposition to the use of icons. While our times seem to call for “Political Correctness” by some and others leaning on the manual for guidance and direction, allow some of us to stand on the unchanging Word of God. The Bible is replete with scriptures on idolatry. God calls it an Abomination. He abhors it. He never supported, embraced, sympathized, or aligned himself with, nations that did. The Old Testament term is idolatry. The New Testament term is covetousness. Colossians 3:5… which is idolatry.

I humbly submit this question. If Jesus Christ walked in this earth today, would He join or support any fellowship or organization that endorsed idols in any shape or form? This letter is a call for unity. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. We need to continue to love Truth more than people. Truth reigns supreme above all men, governments, and nations. If need be, we stand alone. This is not about remaining a loyal citizen to this nation of diverse laws and peoples, but it is about our supreme love for Truth. I am a team player as long as I am on God’s team.

I have heard the weak apostate cry that television is still prohibited for our ministers to own. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. One man so aptly put it “You want the banana without the peel”. In scripture, we are reminded of Hezekiah. He was one of the royal reformers of his day. Yes, reformers. You see, iconoclasm is not reformation. It is not enough that we extirpate the false and evil. We must supplant it or replace it with true and good.

There are some dreamy theorists who argue that evil and good, like the tares and wheat, should be allowed to grow together. True virtue can only be found in the resistance of evil and in our own perpetual wrestlings with sin and evil. It is for the purpose of developing strength and mastery. There is some truth to this but not enough to redeem the argument of God’s command to separate from idolaters. His judgment falls on them that do these things or have pleasure (fellowship) with them that do these things. Romans 1:32. The truth is that there are things in which Truth and virtue cannot maintain a successful contest. There may be rare individual cases, but the church at large; NO. To hold in one’s bosom a serpent long enough is to incur a deadly bite.

Hezekiah had known too much about idolatry to allow any compromise with it. Instead of urging the people to work within the system for change, he called them into a fight to destroy the system of Baal worship. In every Camp Meeting, District Conference, Sectional Rally, General Conference, we need Hezekiahs to preach Television out of the homes and out of our midst. When is the last time you heard consistency in meeting after meeting of preaching against television? Not just a test of leadership, but a test of membership.

God did not call us to pastor just our platform or leadership. He called us to pastor our church. Leaders originate in the pew. We don’t have a mandate to have a big church as much as we have a mandate for a clean church. If that seems too strong, it probably explains why some are scratching their heads in denial or bewilderment. They are asking themselves the questions; What happened to us? Is it really this bad? Hezekiah’s supreme loyalty to Jehovah was not only an attack against idolatry, but it was a sweeping and crushing condemnation of his own father’s conduct and decisions. Hezekiah even dared to touch the most venerable relic that for eight centuries had been viewed and preserved as the nation’s most sacred memorial. I am talking about the Brazen Serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness. That which was innocent, even commendable in itself, had to be abandoned. As treasured and innocent as it was, it had become an idol. It was impossible to disassociate it from wickedness. Even now it is impossible to disassociate television from idolatry.

Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved. Hezekiah refused to call it the “Brazen Serpent”. Instead, he used the euphemism, “A piece of brass”. I ask this question. Can an institution, once used by God to point people to Christ, be reduced to just a piece of brass? God forbid! Let time be our judge. Better yet, for our sakes, allow history to judge us now.

Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor


Great letter Brother Pitman is a fine man of God.

[chseeads]

You're hilariously predictable, WH. lol

[TrmptPraise]

so are you saying that any preacher that has or has allowed tv are not preaching truth?

So everyone that has a tv will eventually wear jewelry and cut their hair or men will grow it out or get divorced?

You, too found that brush rather large did you? :happydance

[DividedThigh]

Ease up on that hunting and fishing SweetPea. You're getting too close to home now.

i am with you raven, that is blasphemous to even say such things, lol,dt:boxing

[Whole Hearted]

Well I see the preacher eating machine is moving along as usual.

True so true

[DividedThigh]

Now THIS is a great letter!!!!!!!

indeed it is, dt:campfire

[MissBrattified]

Well I see the preacher eating machine is moving along as usual.

OP, there are much more intelligent representations and arguments from the anti-TV camp. This letter isn't one of them. It's a cheer leading letter, with about as much depth. It accomplishes its purpose among those it is intended to cheer on, but to post it as an argument against tv? Or to persuade others to its point of view? Doesn't work.

[The Mrs]

Well I see the preacher eating machine is moving along as usual.

His words are being critiqued, and that's okay. It would be no different whether a preacher had written it or not.

Reminder to folks: The focus should stay on the letter and not on the man. Thanks! :waving

[MissBrattified]

Threads like these make me wish WWOD was still here. At least approach the topic with a logical argument.

[Wink]

We cant preach against Over Eating for obvious reasons
We cant preach against cut hair and makeup because we have" transitional" saints that are coming along and we cant run the risk of offending them or losing them
we cant preach against internet because we all have it
we are running out of issues
sodomy (politically incorrect and there might be one in our church)
divorce and remarriage(how many of us are untouched by this one?)
golf
bowling
skating
imax
dvd's
sports

etc


We need TV It is the last bastion of who we are. If we dont at least have that then we are floundering for an issue and we might end up having to preach relationship, soulwinning, and
unity, holiness, using your time wisely, kindness, matters of the heart, fruits of the spirit, the beauty of the name.

[chseeads]

Threads like these make me wish WWOD was still here. At least approach the topic with a logical argument.

:drama

[Apprehended]

Well I see the preacher eating machine is moving along as usual.

Are you of the general opinion or the idea that preachers are above scrutiny and critique?

[Monkeyman]

We cant preach against Over Eating for obvious reasons
We cant preach against cut hair and makeup because we have" transitional" saints that are coming along and we cant run the risk of offending them or losing them
we cant preach against internet because we all have it
we are running out of issues
sodomy (politically incorrect and there might be one in our church)
divorce and remarriage(how many of us are untouched by this one?)
golf
bowling
skating
imax
dvd's
sports

etc


We need TV It is the last bastion of who we are. If we dont at least have that then we are floundering for an issue and we might end up having to preach relationship, soulwinning, and
unity, holiness, using your time wisely, kindness, matters of the heart, fruits of the spirit, the beauty of the name.I got one for ya that is still fair game....it was one of the west coast dudes, maybe Booker??? They preached against....ready.......you ready???? ACOUSTIC GUITARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:tantrum:ouch

[Wink]

Whew!!!!!! that was a close one. Im glad i play electric!!!

[MissBrattified]

...we might end up having to preach relationship, soulwinning, and...unity, holiness, using your time wisely, kindness, matters of the heart, fruits of the spirit, the beauty of the name.

What a novel idea. :ohplease

[Apprehended]

Some idolize a religious holiness stand! :eek:

True.

Shall we create a "Thad List" of all the idols that proliferate?

Some set preachers up as idols to be adored. They get offended when someone critiques some of the dumb stuff some of them say sometimes.

[Monkeyman]

Whew!!!!!! that was a close one. Im glad i play electric!!!Thats next, our resident Merced music maestro wants to get that hippy instrument off of the platform, its taking his spotlight!!!!!:boxing

[Wink]

the maestro of merced makes me feel like a beginner. He just props me up

[MissBrattified]

I got one for ya that is still fair game....it was one of the west coast dudes, maybe Booker??? They preached against....ready.......you ready???? ACOUSTIC GUITARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:tantrum:ouch

Huh? What was the reasoning behind that?

[Monkeyman]

the maestro of merced makes me feel like a beginner. He just props me upWhatever..he was giving you "props" the other day, I can't wait until I figure out who you are so I'll know when I hear ya.
BTW, is that your strat in your avatar?

[MissBrattified]

Whatever..he was giving you "props" the other day, I can't wait until I figure out who you are so I'll know when I hear ya.
BTW, is that your strat in your avatar?

*gasp* I can't believe you haven't figured it out already.

[Monkeyman]

Huh? What was the reasoning behind that?Too mellow and relaxed for CHURCH!!! Kinda sissyfied....?????????????Weird if ya ask me! *I told his son that on this forum*

[MissBrattified]

Too mellow and relaxed for CHURCH!!! Kinda sissyfied....?????????????Weird if ya ask me! *I told his son that on this forum*

I remember services when all we had was my Dad playing guitar and leading worship. I actually preferred that sometimes to a full band.

:drama

[Wink]

not mine. I did try to find an acoustic guitar picture to kind of offset the aggressive manly symbolism stereotype of the electric guitar. Maybe the preacher is on to something. All sissys need
to play electric guitars!!

[Wink]

BTW i am in CA with an acoustic and electric. Got a double gig bag. Nothing like a little
balance

[hometown guy]

I got one for ya that is still fair game....it was one of the west coast dudes, maybe Booker??? They preached against....ready.......you ready???? ACOUSTIC GUITARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:tantrum:ouch

you dont even know what your talking about mm. you got the wrong man and the wrong place and the person that said it, said he almost felt like preaching against it.he was just makeing a point. this pastor even plays the acoustic guitar. please get your facts before you gossip.

[hometown guy]

Too mellow and relaxed for CHURCH!!! Kinda sissyfied....?????????????Weird if ya ask me! *I told his son that on this forum*

no mm is still wrong. it had to do with being laid back and casual in church

[Broken]

Too mellow and relaxed for CHURCH!!! Kinda sissyfied....?????????????Weird if ya ask me! *I told his son that on this forum*

I don't believe a real Christian would make that statement, would hope conviction sets in

[hometown guy]

I don't believe a real Christian would make that statement, would hope conviction sets in

dont worry he didnt make that statement, and he is a real christian

[RevDWW]

I don't believe a real Christian would make that statement, would hope conviction sets in

Which part wouldn't a "real Christian" make?

[MissBrattified]

I don't believe a real Christian would make that statement, would hope conviction sets in


???? So its unchristian to state your opinions about a type of music or instrument?

You know what? When extreme statements are made from either side, its equally discrediting and disappointing.

[Broken]

???? So its unchristian to state your opinions about a type of music or instrument?

You know what? When extreme statements are made from either side, its equally discrediting and disappointing.


Truer words have never been spoken

No one has to explain what that particular statement meant- we are all old enough to know the context of it all

[MissBrattified]

Truer words have never been spoken

No one has to explain what that particular statement meant- we are all old enough to know the context of it all

Broken, I was referring to your comment. "I don't believe a 'real' Christian would make that statement."

Isn't that a bit extreme? Christians still have opinions. I think a man playing a flute is kind of sissified, but that's just my personal opinion. :ohplease

[Broken]

Broken, I was referring to your comment. "I don't believe a 'real' Christian would make that statement."

Isn't that a bit extreme? Christians still have opinions. I think a man playing a flute is kind of sissified, but that's just my personal opinion. :ohplease

like you said it is your personal opinion and that is great! I fear ones that would classify an instrument by what type of individual you are. I would be afraid what would be assumed that years ago when elders hit the spoons be referred to

[Wink]

bro booker has been personally very kind and complimentary to me in various places we have been scheduled together.

Believe me tho i have had some slams over the years.
When i was just about 7 or 8, i was messing around on the guitar in church and the pastors daughter cam up and accused me of playing "rockin' robin" I didnt even know what rocking robin was!!

When i was with an apostolic group in the early 90's i was approached by a young man, maybe 19-20 that told me he was offended by my playing. I really tried to be diplomatic and kind with him but he continued even after i told him a short version of my testimony and that i was giving my ability to God.

He then told me "you move around like the guys on MTV"

Wrong thing to say!!! My reply "i dont watch MTV do you?

We played in a lot of venues where people would come to the table and criticize me. I really didnt know it at the time because i never stood around the product table and was only told much later. Thank God for a buffer zone!!!

That would have been really hard on me because early on i thought everyone loved God and would have been devastated to think i was offending someone while i was celebrating freedom
from 10 years of bondage.

[rgcraig]

I would be afraid what would be assumed that years ago when elders hit the spoons be referred to

What does this mean?

[Whole Hearted]

We cant preach against Over Eating for obvious reasons
We cant preach against cut hair and makeup because we have" transitional" saints that are coming along and we cant run the risk of offending them or losing them
we cant preach against internet because we all have it
we are running out of issues
sodomy (politically incorrect and there might be one in our church)
divorce and remarriage(how many of us are untouched by this one?)
golf
bowling
skating
imax
dvd's
sports

etc


We need TV It is the last bastion of who we are. If we dont at least have that then we are floundering for an issue and we might end up having to preach relationship, soulwinning, and
unity, holiness, using your time wisely, kindness, matters of the heart, fruits of the spirit, the beauty of the name.

I preach agasint all these and know many who do.

[rgcraig]

bro booker has been personally very kind and complimentary to me in various places we have been scheduled together.

Believe me tho i have had some slams over the years.
When i was just about 7 or 8, i was messing around on the guitar in church and the pastors daughter cam up and accused me of playing "rockin' robin" I didnt even know what rocking robin was!!

When i was with an apostolic group in the early 90's i was approached by a young man, maybe 19-20 that told me he was offended by my playing. I really tried to be diplomatic and kind with him but he continued even after i told him a short version of my testimony and that i was giving my ability to God.

He then told me "you move around like the guys on MTV"

Wrong thing to say!!! My reply "i dont watch MTV do you?

We played in a lot of venues where people would come to the table and criticize me. I really didnt know it at the time because i never stood around the product table and was only told much later. Thank God for a buffer zone!!!

That would have been really hard on me because early on i thought everyone loved God and would have been devastated to think i was offending someone while i was celebrating freedom
from 10 years of bondage.
Oh who cares what those folks say - they'd complain to David himself for dancing to the Lord~!

[rgcraig]

I preach agasint all these and know many who do.

We know.

[COOPER]

Oh who cares what those folks say - they'd complain to David himself for dancing to the Lord~!
:tvhappy

[Wink]

i personally love making fun of instruments

Welcome to Heaven heres your harp
Welcome to _____ heres your accordion

A man went into a store and left his bagpipe in the back seat of his car
when he came back out he realized someone had broken in and left 2 more sets of bagpipes

[MissBrattified]

Oh who cares what those folks say - they'd complain to David himself for dancing to the Lord~!

Very True.

[Pastor Keith]

Agape,

Do you really believe this to be a good letter and his usage of Hezekiah and OT examples has relative application to TV technology today?

If so our Biblical literacy and the ability to apply scripture to 21st Century is much further behind than I imagined.

Sounds if this brother endorses Johnny King's model of the pastor being the ruler/enforcer/restrainer.

I am all for loving the truth, but even I am aware that there is a difference between truth and my interpretation of what I believe is truth. I gladly will associate and allow for differences of that interpretation.

Keith

[Whole Hearted]

Are you of the general opinion or the idea that preachers are above scrutiny and critique?

I was always taught

Touch not mine anointed and do my prophet no harm.

We never talked about the man of God in a negative way. Even my backslidden kin folks would not talk evil of the man of God.

[COOPER]

We know.

:tvhappy I hate TV !!:tantrum

[MissBrattified]

i personally love making fun of instruments

Welcome to Heaven heres your harp
Welcome to _____ heres your accordion

A man went into a store and left his bagpipe in the back seat of his car
when he came back out he realized someone had broken in and left 2 more sets of bagpipes

LOL!

I nearly ruined a funeral one time, because a bagpipe player-dude came walking down the middle aisle playing Amazing Grace, and in our smallish building, it was ear splitting and shocking and it hit me funny, and I about passed out, trying not to laugh (right next to the platform, waiting to sing)

...I had two friends elbowing me, and was biting my tongue as hard as possible...and then the poor granddaughter of the dearly departed was so overcome with emotion at the sight of the kilt clad trumpeter, that she was nearly hyperventilating, and for some reason THAT was even funnier.

I am so insensitive sometimes. :D

Bagpipes are great...coming over a hill in the DISTANCE. And that's about it.

[Wink]

I preach agasint all these and know many who do.

i would hope that you realize that i do believe in a stand against sin and we cant bow to politically correctness but was trying to make a point about being consistent.

I dont even like TV
But i sure enjoy the vast amount of clips i can download on my "screen"

[rgcraig]

LOL!

I nearly ruined a funeral one time, because a bagpipe player-dude came walking down the middle aisle playing Amazing Grace, and in our smallish building, it was ear splitting and shocking and it hit me funny, and I about passed out, trying not to laugh (right next to the platform, waiting to sing)

...I had two friends elbowing me, and was biting my tongue as hard as possible...and then the poor granddaughter of the dearly departed was so overcome with emotion at the sight of the kilt clad trumpeter, that she was nearly hyperventilating, and for some reason THAT was even funnier.

I am so insensitive sometimes. :D

Bagpipes are great...coming over a hill in the DISTANCE. And that's about it.
LOL - - I can't EVEN imagine how hard that was to keep it together!!

[Wink]

LOL!

I nearly ruined a funeral one time, because a bagpipe player-dude came walking down the middle aisle playing Amazing Grace, and in our smallish building, it was ear splitting and shocking and it hit me funny, and I about passed out, trying not to laugh (right next to the platform, waiting to sing)

...I had two friends elbowing me, and was biting my tongue as hard as possible...and then the poor granddaughter of the dearly departed was so overcome with emotion at the sight of the kilt clad trumpeter, that she was nearly hyperventilating, and for some reason THAT was even funnier.

I am so insensitive sometimes. :D

Bagpipes are great...coming over a hill in the DISTANCE. And that's about it.

or going over a hill

[MissBrattified]

That too.

[Whole Hearted]

i would hope that you realize that i do believe in a stand against sin and we cant bow to politically correctness but was trying to make a point about being consistent.

I dont even like TV
But i sure enjoy the vast amount of clips i can download on my "screen"

I really want to be consistent so I don't watch clips or anything else.

[Ferd]

I dont know how anyone can preach againt playing basket ball in Highschool, but not preach against golf.

[hometown guy]

I really want to be consistent so I don't watch clips or anything else.

same here

[rgcraig]

I really want to be consistent so I don't watch clips or anything else.

So what is the sin exactly? If there's a clip of a sermon, you won't even view it?

[Whole Hearted]

So what is the sin exactly? If there's a clip of a sermon, you won't even view it?

I didn't say it was a sin to view a clip of preaching (provided it's an Apostolic preacher) but I want to be consistent so I don't watch video, clips or anything.

[Wink]

i really do admire your consistency. I do have friends that will never turn on a TV watch a dvd but will read novels that have very questionable content so i am serious about being consistent. There are a lot of potential stumbling blocks that are not controlled by a remote control.

David didnt have a tv

I know another pastor that will watch a dvd but told me that he wont allow his saints to.

[rgcraig]

I didn't say it was a sin to view a clip of preaching (provided it's an Apostolic preacher) but I want to be consistent so I don't watch video, clips or anything.

Well, I have to admire the consistency.

However, I do struggle with the consistency of not watching video or clips, but being on the computer. Watching a newscast is wrong, however reading it on the computer is okay?

[Ferd]

I didn't say it was a sin to view a clip of preaching (provided it's an Apostolic preacher) but I want to be consistent so I don't watch video, clips or anything.

Brother, I dont want to be contentious with you. I respect any pastors right to preach and teach as he sees fit.

but I have 2 things to point out regarding consistancy.
The only people who think one can be on the internet but preach against TV and be consistant are the ones doing it. Everyone else thinks it is very inconsistant...second, you dont preach against Golf. Golf is as worldly a sport as there is. More money is gambled away on a golf course than on any other sporting venue.

[rgcraig]

i really do admire your consistency. I do have friends that will never turn on a TV watch a dvd but will read novels that have very questionable content so i am serious about being consistent. There are a lot of potential stumbling blocks that are not controlled by a remote control.

David didnt have a tv

I know another pastor that will watch a dvd but told me that he wont allow his saints to.
WOW - - now, that really makes sense.





NOT!

[RevDWW]

I didn't say it was a sin to view a clip of preaching (provided it's an Apostolic preacher) but I want to be consistent so I don't watch video, clips or anything.

If it's ok to view an Apostlic preacher on a clip, what's wrong with viewing the whole sermon? Or viewing it on television verses a monitor? Does the medium you view it in negate the message of Truth?

[rgcraig]

If it's ok to view an Apostlic preacher on a clip, what's wrong with viewing the whole sermon? Or viewing it on television verses a monitor? Does the medium you view it in negate the message of Truth?

Hard to wrap your head around it, isn't it?

[Wink]

I didn't say it was a sin to view a clip of preaching (provided it's an Apostolic preacher) but I want to be consistent so I don't watch video, clips or anything.

a serious question here. How do you deal with cell phone technology. Do you let the young people have cell phones that will record or play video?

Do ipods have to be strictly for music

Do you allow laptops with DVD or only cd drives?

Is this something that you find it easy to enforce?

I never had a TV growing up but lust knocked on my door in a lot of ways.

I did read a quote from a Texas pastor that said..... we are trying to keep the camels head out of the tent but the camels already in the tent.

Respectfully Wink

[Whole Hearted]

a serious question here. How do you deal with cell phone technology. Do you let the young people have cell phones that will record or play video?
Most of our youth don't have cell phones.
Do ipods have to be strictly for musicYES

Do you allow laptops with DVD or only cd drives? haven't HAD TO WORRY ABOUT THIS DON'T HAVE ANYONE THAT HAS A LAPTO, but if they did there would be no watching of DVDs.

Is this something that you find it easy to enforce?

I never had a TV growing up but lust knocked on my door in a lot of ways. True sop why add TV to that

I did read a quote from a Texas pastor that said..... we are trying to keep the camels head out of the tent but the camels already in the tent.

Respectfully Wink

I hope this answered your questions.

[chseeads]

I preach agasint all these and know many who do.

Thank God for good men who will take a staunch stand and hold up the blood-stained banner against the horrible evil that is bowling!


:toofunny

[Monkeyman]

I hope this answered your questions.You know NOONE who has a laptop????????????? Seriously? Where in the world do you live???????????? Mayberry?:)

[Whole Hearted]

Brother, I dont want to be contentious with you. I respect any pastors right to preach and teach as he sees fit.

but I have 2 things to point out regarding consistancy.
The only people who think one can be on the internet but preach against TV and be consistant are the ones doing it. Everyone else thinks it is very inconsistant...second, you dont preach against Golf. Golf is as worldly a sport as there is. More money is gambled away on a golf course than on any other sporting venue.

I played gold a couple of times as a teenager. My mother and stepfather belonged to a country club. I did not feel right about it so I never did it again. You may be right, maybe I need to preach against that to. Only thins is we are in the country and no one plays gold so I really don't need to worry about it.

AS far as the Internet. anyone with it must have filters on it. We have net nanny and with that my wife couldn't even look at an add for flannel night gowns. It would not let me view a thread about wine or grape juice for communion.

[Joseph Miller]

I know Elder Pitman...

He is NOT pro-tulsa he is ANTI-tv...

And his views on divorce and remarriage would send most of you packing....

regardless...TRUTH preaching preachers have always stood against TV...

now it seems that some love the "traditions of men" (read here ORG) more than the "commandments of God"!

Same bunch that is okay with tv is okay with jewelry, women cutting their hair, men having long hair, divorce & remarriage, etc


I MUST address this post.

TV is not the message. You can stand for truth and NEVER preach against TV. Therefore, your statement about TRUTH preaching preachers have always preached against TV is false plain and simple.

God writes 10 commandments with his hands. Not even one mentions TV.

I don't preach against TV and I don't preach against some jewelry. I do preach against women cutting their hair, long hair on men and my view on divorce and remarriage might amaze you.

Get your facts before you start grouping people together.

[Whole Hearted]

You know NOONE who has a laptop????????????? Seriously? Where in the world do you live???????????? Mayberry?:)

We only have five families with a computer. The rest say they don't want them or need them (some of them even run business without a computer imagine that).

[Joseph Miller]

Well I see the preacher eating machine is moving along as usual.


This is a preacher eating machine when we are disagree with ultra cons. hmmmmm.....:drama

[Wink]

ok i can accept your point on the tv....why add tv to the mix

I dont know you and am not trying to belittle or criticize you.

couple of questions?

Is the lack of cell phones in the youth a rule or is it economically related?

I guess i should have included home computers as well as laptops in reference to the dvd drives.
they almost all have them. How are you able to police that?

Do you encourage your youth to further their education and be successful even at the risk of
some of these technologies becoming an integral part of their lives?

Do you have a gap between 18 and say 30 of youth that leave as soon as they finish high school?

Do you prohibit any secular music at all?

Where do you draw the line on christian music?


Sincerely Wink

[Steadfast]

I MUST address this post.

TV is not the message. You can stand for truth and NEVER preach against TV. Therefore, your statement about TRUTH preaching preachers have always preached against TV is false plain and simple.

God writes 10 commandments with his hands. Not even one mentions TV.

I don't preach against TV and I don't preach against some jewelry. I don't preach against women cutting their hair, long hair on men and my view on divorce and remarriage might amaze you.

Get your facts before you start grouping people together.

Well, there goes 3/4 of your revivals!

:ohplease:shhh:ohplease:shhh:ohplease

On the other hand, I stand against all of the things you mentioned and have an incredible revival Church. So, yes, there may be a little 'broad brushing' being done by our friend here.

[RevBuddy]

Go back and read the real reason behind all this "sin" - the need to ENFORCE something...it's called having to have CONTROL over people...

The real reason has nothing to do with the issue under discussion...it's all about controlling people...being the oracle of knowledge and truth...

This should scare us all.

[Fab]

Go back and read the real reason behind all this "sin" - the need to ENFORCE something...it's called having to have CONTROL over people...

The real reason has nothing to do with the issue under discussion...it's all about controlling people...being the oracle of knowledge and truth...

This should scare us all.

So right. As it is in most things, the issue is never the issue.

[AmazingGrace]

i personally love making fun of instruments

Welcome to Heaven heres your harp
Welcome to _____ heres your accordion

A man went into a store and left his bagpipe in the back seat of his car
when he came back out he realized someone had broken in and left 2 more sets of bagpipes

Brother there has never been a more real statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GLORAYYYYYYY! :toofunny:happydance

[Joseph Miller]

Forest Pentecostal Church
Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor


I am not accusing anyone of lying but if this is NOT the local licensed pastor from Forest MS who is this? Since some think we have the wrong guy by saying it is the Pastor from Forest, I ask will the real author please speak up?

[RevBuddy]

Fab...

The scriptural references used to defend these "sin" issues are never on subject, always misinterpreted and are not relevant to today.

Such ministries are not "holding up the blood-washed banner." More often than not they are holding up the bloody remains of a saint...

[Joseph Miller]

We cant preach against Over Eating for obvious reasons
We cant preach against cut hair and makeup because we have" transitional" saints that are coming along and we cant run the risk of offending them or losing them
we cant preach against internet because we all have it
we are running out of issues
sodomy (politically incorrect and there might be one in our church)
divorce and remarriage(how many of us are untouched by this one?)
golf
bowling
skating
imax
dvd's
sports

etc


We need TV It is the last bastion of who we are. If we dont at least have that then we are floundering for an issue and we might end up having to preach relationship, soulwinning, and
unity, holiness, using your time wisely, kindness, matters of the heart, fruits of the spirit, the beauty of the name.


Great post. If we all quit preaching against TV then we will have to start using the Word to find something to preach.

[Joseph Miller]

I got one for ya that is still fair game....it was one of the west coast dudes, maybe Booker??? They preached against....ready.......you ready???? ACOUSTIC GUITARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:tantrum:ouch



Whew!!!!!! that was a close one. Im glad i play electric!!!

To think there are guys in the south that preach againt electric one and only have acoustic. lol

[AGAPE]

I am not accusing anyone of lying but if this is NOT the local licensed pastor from Forest MS who is this? Since some think we have the wrong guy by saying it is the Pastor from Forest, I ask will the real author please speak up?

It is Pastor Pitman from Forest....I don't know if he is local, general or ordained by the org...

It is not the Pitman who's father pastored in ocean springs or wherever...

[Joseph Miller]

Huh? What was the reasoning behind that?


Do they need a reason? They never have in the past, why should they now?

[Fab]

RevBuddy -
The reason the scriptural references are never on subject and misinterpreted is due to the fact that according to my KJV, there are no scriptures with the word "control." Controlling people, controlling sin, etc.

[Wink]

To think there are guys in the south that preach againt electric one and only have acoustic. lol

Thats why i have been carrying both.
I can be all things to all men

or

when in Rome!!!

[Wink]

not Rome GA

LOL

[AmazingGrace]

We only have five families with a computer. The rest say they don't want them or need them (some of them even run business without a computer imagine that).

Yep this is what I was thinkin... probably not many more than that in your church totally right?

[Joseph Miller]

I preach agasint all these and know many who do.


What is wrong with bowling?

[papapraiz]

Wow ... :drama

[Fab]

What is wrong with bowling?

It is the atmosphere -- all that drinking and smoking. Rather, lets just go to Chili's Bar and Grill and eat.

[RandyWayne]

If it's ok to view an Apostlic preacher on a clip, what's wrong with viewing the whole sermon? Or viewing it on television verses a monitor? Does the medium you view it in negate the message of Truth?

Those are two things without a difference. About a week ago, I bought a new MP3 player, an Insignia Pilot, which has some amazing video capabilities. During a break in class this morning I was watching Revenge of the Pink Panther and people were amazed (including myself) at how good the picture is for a 2.2 inch screen.
It gets to the point where I have to wonder if the REAL issue is animation and the first culprit was the inventor of the wheel, that when spun, showed a galloping horse. Sometime in the 19th century I believe. THAT was the genie being let out of the bottle if you ask me!

[Joseph Miller]

I hope this answered your questions.


You are not one of those that think people under 18 shouldn't have a cell phone because they will text "nasty" things are you?

I have heard one UC make that statement.

[Wink]

It is the atmosphere -- all that drinking and smoking. Rather, lets just go to Chili's Bar and Grill and eat.

LOL . I was in applebees two nights ago and two men at the bar started singing loudly and out of pitch it was obvious they were on a liquid diet.

I felt a slight tinge of Deja Vu.

[Wink]

i dont know if it the was the niteclub memories or my singing back then

[Wink]

at least i didnt see it on TV

[Fab]

Wink -

At least they wasn't bowling!! HA

[Joseph Miller]

Well, there goes 3/4 of your revivals!

:ohplease:shhh:ohplease:shhh:ohplease

On the other hand, I stand against all of the things you mentioned and have an incredible revival Church. So, yes, there may be a little 'broad brushing' being done by our friend here.


Steadfast, I actually used the word don't when I should have used the word do. I was typing so fast. Anyone that knows me knows I still stand against those things such as women cutting their hair and long hair on men.

As far as Jewlery goes I do not preach against wedding rings or cufflinks.

[Admin]

Open discussion is welcome and encouraged on AFF. Personal attacks are not.

This is a friendly reminder to please use discretion in posting.

[Wink]

at least i didnt see it on TV

thats normally where i get to watch tv but they were just 2 drunk and it distracted me

[Apprehended]

I was always taught

Touch not mine anointed and do my prophet no harm.

We never talked about the man of God in a negative way. Even my backslidden kin folks would not talk evil of the man of God.

I was not speaking of talking evil of the man of God. That is a sin. God is not pleased with that.

But, bringing a man of God under examination and giving a critique of some of the things that he says and stands for is NOT speaking evil of THE MAN. There is a huge difference even though some are not able to deleniate betwen the two.

Does not the Word of God teach us, even the saints of God to KNOW (those preachers) them (examine them) that labor among us? They must be brought under scrutiny, critiqued and even corrected when needful.

But, the way it sounds by you and OP, preachers are to be put up on a pedistal as though they were untouchable. If that be the case, there is an element of idol worship. That is so repugnant to me that I stop anyone who would call me Reverend. I refuse to be called by an exalted title other than "your brother."

I know full well the spirit of preacher worship, which many of them hungrily receive. God is not pleased with it.

[rgcraig]

Go back and read the real reason behind all this "sin" - the need to ENFORCE something...it's called having to have CONTROL over people...

The real reason has nothing to do with the issue under discussion...it's all about controlling people...being the oracle of knowledge and truth...

This should scare us all.

It did.

[RevBuddy]

Apprehended...did you just get "apprehended?" Oh my!!

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Whole Hearted View Post
I was always taught

Touch not mine anointed and do my prophet no harm.

We never talked about the man of God in a negative way. Even my backslidden kin folks would not talk evil of the man of God.

In the broadest sense, this should be true for anyone. However, the pastors of today are not nearly in the same category of the prophets and kings of the old Testament. They were chosen DIRECTLY by God where in todays world they are more or less, self proclaimed.

[Cindy]

It is Pastor Pitman from Forest....I don't know if he is local, general or ordained by the org...

It is not the Pitman who's father pastored in ocean springs or wherever...

Since you are the one who started this thread, where did you get this letter?
Since you don't know him apparently. By your above statement.

[RevBuddy]

FYI...There's a William H. Pitman listed as a UPCI pastor in Forest, Mississippi on the UPCI website.

[Apprehended]

Apprehended...did you just get "apprehended?" Oh my!!

I have a great many deficiencies as indicated by growing evidence with each post.

[RevBuddy]

I have a great many deficiencies as indicated by growing evidence with each post.

Just tread carefully as you thread... :happydance

[Michael Phelps]

I know Elder Pitman...

He is NOT pro-tulsa he is ANTI-tv...

And his views on divorce and remarriage would send most of you packing....

regardless...TRUTH preaching preachers have always stood against TV...

now it seems that some love the "traditions of men" (read here ORG) more than the "commandments of God"!

Same bunch that is okay with tv is okay with jewelry, women cutting their hair, men having long hair, divorce & remarriage, etc

Lol, oh brother. Could you have used a broader brush and made a more ludicrous statement?????????? I highly doubt it.

Unfortunately, it's what I would expect.

[Esther]

I was always taught

Touch not mine anointed and do my prophet no harm.

We never talked about the man of God in a negative way. Even my backslidden kin folks would not talk evil of the man of God.

I guess you are assuming ALL ministers are anointed?

[Michael Phelps]

GM has changed sides many times....

"...a double minded man...."

Care to share some examples to back up your claim against this brother?

[Subdued]

Well, I have to admire the consistency.

However, I do struggle with the consistency of not watching video or clips, but being on the computer. Watching a newscast is wrong, however reading it on the computer is okay?

I wonder if those against watching video clips ever view/use/look at/create flip books.

[Michael Phelps]

I wonder if those against watching video clips ever view/use/look at/create flip books.

No moovin' pitchers.

[RevBuddy]

Lol, oh brother. Could you have used a broader brush and made a more ludicrous statement?????????? I highly doubt it.

Unfortunately, it's what I would expect.

Are you "Robert de Niro" or "Tony Soprano?"

[rgcraig]

Are you "Robert de Niro" or "Tony Soprano?"

Should you really know these names?

[RevBuddy]

What names????? I plead the fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States which stipulates that any individual does not have to answer any question under oath that may tend to incriminate them...

Names?...names?...I can't recall any names.... :toofunny

[rgcraig]

What names????? I plead the fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States which stipulates that any individual does not have to answer any question under oath that may tend to incriminate them...

Names?...names?...I can't recall any names.... :toofunny

Don't tell Thad that Tony posts here - - - he'll be mad that he didn't break it in a newsflash!!

[Michael Phelps]

Are you "Robert de Niro" or "Tony Soprano?"

Tony Soprano. Don't ask me why - I'm enamored.

[Cindy]

Don't tell Thad that Tony posts here - - - he'll be mad that he didn't break it in a newsflash!!

:tantrum

:boxing

:toofunny

[Whole Hearted]

ok i can accept your point on the tv....why add tv to the mix

I dont know you and am not trying to belittle or criticize you.

couple of questions?

Is the lack of cell phones in the youth a rule or is it economically related?Most of our youth are younger. Cell phones for youth is up to the parents, most just don't think that kids need cell phones. My kids where not aloud to have cell phones until recently and they are on my plan and I monitor it. They do not have texting or pictures or any of that stuff.

I guess i should have included home computers as well as laptops in reference to the DVD drives.
they almost all have them. How are you able to police that?They are taught to have a filter and ask if they have one. So if they lie then they have another problem.
Do you encourage your youth to further their education and be successful even at the risk of
some of these technologies becoming an integral part of their lives? My son just got a new job with a computer, he is training as a draftsman. We have school teachers, foremen, retired bank president, retired school teacher. and so on, we are not a bunch of uneducated fools.
Do you have a gap between 18 and say 30 of youth that leave as soon as they finish high school?
Not really, the church I pastor is mostly younger.
Do you prohibit any secular music at all?Yes

Where do you draw the line on christian music?No rock and such and some of the contemporary


Sincerely Wink

I hope this answers your questions.

[Whole Hearted]

Yep this is what I was thinkin... probably not many more than that in your church totally right?

That's where you are wrong. I was surprised when i came here, but only a small percent have computers, even the younger couples don't have them. It could be because all we can get is veeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyy sssssssssssllllllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooo ooowwwwwwwwwwww dail up.

[Whole Hearted]

You are not one of those that think people under 18 shouldn't have a cell phone because they will text "nasty" things are you?

I have heard one UC make that statement.

My son was not allowed a cell phone until he was 18. He is 191/2 now and he is still not allowed texting or pictures. He is on my plan and his mother and I motor his usage.

[Michael Phelps]

My son was not allowed a cell phone until he was 18. He is 191/2 now and he is still not allowed texting or pictures. He is on my plan and his mother and I motor his usage.

Wow......nothing to say here.

[rgcraig]

My son was not allowed a cell phone until he was 18. He is 19 1/2 now and he is still not allowed texting or pictures. He is on my plan and his mother and I motor his usage.Not trying to rock the boat or anything here, but WH, I have to ask.

Your son is almost 20 and you are monitoring his cell phone usage. Have you given him enough "life tools" that he will be able to make sound mature decisions on his own anytime soon?

[Tina]

Wow......nothing to say here.

Really? :D

Oh, I could say a lot here... I'm just doing my best at resisting the temptation.

[rgcraig]

Really? :D

Oh, I could say a lot here... I'm just doing my best at resisting the temptation.

I couldn't help myself and said something. :blah :blah :blah

[RandyWayne]

My son was not allowed a cell phone until he was 18. He is 191/2 now and he is still not allowed texting or pictures. He is on my plan and his mother and I motor his usage.


My son will be 12 in a few months and already has one. It's a safety thing with him.
If I had a DAUGHTER, I'd probably be monitoring her messaging, phone calls, internet access, and accommodating her on dates well into her 30's!
Thank GOD I don't have a daughter -I'd be her worst nightmare.

[Whole Hearted]

Not trying to rock the boat or anything here, but WH, I have to ask.

Your son is almost 20 and you are monitoring his cell phone usage. Have you given him enough "life tools" that he will be able to make sound mature decisions on his own anytime soon?

Yes I have and I will help him along the way just as my papa did me, We are best friends and he comes come for advise.

[Whole Hearted]

My son will be 12 in a few months and already has one. It's a safety thing with him.
If I had a DAUGHTER, I'd probably be monitoring her messaging, phone calls, internet access, and accommodating her on dates well into her 30's!
Thank GOD I don't have a daughter -I'd be her worst nightmare.

My daughter is 14 and we got her a phone. She only has a 100 minute (my son has 700) and she is were closely watch. She doesn't have texting etc. either. Her computer time is monitored as is where she goes. Neither kid was (is) allowed to date until 16 and then only with a chaperone. And for my girl I must meet the boy and will call his pastor to inquire of him before there is a date.

[chseeads]

My son will be 12 in a few months and already has one. It's a safety thing with him.
If I had a DAUGHTER, I'd probably be monitoring her messaging, phone calls, internet access, and accommodating her on dates well into her 30's!
Thank GOD I don't have a daughter -I'd be her worst nightmare.

I didn't think you had any kids. :eek:

[AmazingGrace]

Well I admire one thing and thats the dating thing... but the rest i have to say is a little out there. My kids all have cell phones... I do check their text messages if I have reason to feel there is a problem. But I know all of their friends and there is one friend my son has that is currently out of church. We have been working with her and I do still let her talk to my son but she is courteous enough that when she sends him a text she sends the same one to me because her words were "I dont want anyone to think anything wrong would ever go on he is my best friend" she is a wonderful young girl he met at church camp and I adore her to pieces.

I want my children to know I trust them and I too want them to have enough life experiences to make it in the real world. I have the same dating rule as you. I have a curfew for them also... 1030 for my oldest girl on school nights and midnight on weekends. (I dont worry about the weekends really because if she is gone she is at church) My youngest is 9 pm.. she is never usually out without me except for her "mentor" from church who takes her out once a week to do some girl stuff... And my son well... considering the church school basketball games havent been returning from them till after midnight lately... I just let that one be played by ear. But all of his friends are in our church and he also goes to school with them so he is usually with them and that lowers any risks quiet a bit. 3 of my 4 have their own laptops.. only one has internet access but it must be used in the living room and both computers are checked often to make sure nothing stupid happens.

I have children who werent always raised in church.. they hated that life. They are so happy with where they are now and their main goal in life is to live a life pleasing to God... I have set boundaries and they have seen these and they dont have to have a leash on their neck to survive. They will have to make mistakes.. some of them already have.. but they also have to learn from them... isnt that what life is all about?? With God as our guide we will return from those mistakes bigger and better and more in Love with Jesus than ever before!

[stmatthew]

Not trying to rock the boat or anything here, but WH, I have to ask.

Your son is almost 20 and you are monitoring his cell phone usage. Have you given him enough "life tools" that he will be able to make sound mature decisions on his own anytime soon?

My son is 18 1/2, lives in Nashville 3 hours from me, and has a cell phone that is on my plan. I do not monitor his calls, as I have trained him up in the way he should go, and trust he and God that he will succeed in walking the Christian walk.

There comes a time when you you have to let a young man be a man.

[Esther]

My daughter is 14 and we got her a phone. She only has a 100 minute (my son has 700) and she is were closely watch. She doesn't have texting etc. either. Her computer time is monitored as is where she goes. Neither kid was (is) allowed to date until 16 and then only with a chaperone. And for my girl I must meet the boy and will call his pastor to inquire of him before there is a date.

I'm hoping your son is a lot older since he has a lot more minutes.:tantrum

[Esther]

My son is 18 1/2, lives in Nashville 3 hours from me, and has a cell phone that is on my plan. I do not monitor his calls, as I have trained him up in the way he should go, and trust he and God that he will succeed in walking the Christian walk.

There comes a time when you you have to let a young man be a man.

Amen!

[Theophil]

Forest Pentecostal Church
January 15, 2008

Dear Minister Friends:

“A Piece of Brass”
In light of the recent turn in direction of our organization (or better understood as compromise), and with the ongoing call for blind loyalty and unity in spite of the full endorsement and approval of idolatry in our midst, I am compelled to respond. Each of us appreciate the broad latitude the organization offers us to express our different views. Make no mistake about it, television is not a different view, it is sin. We are not talking about wine vs. grape juice for communion. We are not talking about the different views on Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. We are not even talking about the different views on the Rapture: Pre, Mid, or Post tribulation. We are talking about the certified endorsement of an idol in our camp.

While maintaining a right spirit and a clean heart, I have somewhat to say. Not long ago I came across a term called “Iconoclast”. Iconoclast means Image destroyer. One who opposes the veneration of images or idols. One who attacks beliefs, ideals, or institutions that support such activity. There was a religious party that made this popular in the 8th and 9th century by their opposition to the use of icons. While our times seem to call for “Political Correctness” by some and others leaning on the manual for guidance and direction, allow some of us to stand on the unchanging Word of God. The Bible is replete with scriptures on idolatry. God calls it an Abomination. He abhors it. He never supported, embraced, sympathized, or aligned himself with, nations that did. The Old Testament term is idolatry. The New Testament term is covetousness. Colossians 3:5… which is idolatry.

I humbly submit this question. If Jesus Christ walked in this earth today, would He join or support any fellowship or organization that endorsed idols in any shape or form? This letter is a call for unity. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. We need to continue to love Truth more than people. Truth reigns supreme above all men, governments, and nations. If need be, we stand alone. This is not about remaining a loyal citizen to this nation of diverse laws and peoples, but it is about our supreme love for Truth. I am a team player as long as I am on God’s team.

I have heard the weak apostate cry that television is still prohibited for our ministers to own. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. One man so aptly put it “You want the banana without the peel”. In scripture, we are reminded of Hezekiah. He was one of the royal reformers of his day. Yes, reformers. You see, iconoclasm is not reformation. It is not enough that we extirpate the false and evil. We must supplant it or replace it with true and good.

There are some dreamy theorists who argue that evil and good, like the tares and wheat, should be allowed to grow together. True virtue can only be found in the resistance of evil and in our own perpetual wrestlings with sin and evil. It is for the purpose of developing strength and mastery. There is some truth to this but not enough to redeem the argument of God’s command to separate from idolaters. His judgment falls on them that do these things or have pleasure (fellowship) with them that do these things. Romans 1:32. The truth is that there are things in which Truth and virtue cannot maintain a successful contest. There may be rare individual cases, but the church at large; NO. To hold in one’s bosom a serpent long enough is to incur a deadly bite.

Hezekiah had known too much about idolatry to allow any compromise with it. Instead of urging the people to work within the system for change, he called them into a fight to destroy the system of Baal worship. In every Camp Meeting, District Conference, Sectional Rally, General Conference, we need Hezekiahs to preach Television out of the homes and out of our midst. When is the last time you heard consistency in meeting after meeting of preaching against television? Not just a test of leadership, but a test of membership.

God did not call us to pastor just our platform or leadership. He called us to pastor our church. Leaders originate in the pew. We don’t have a mandate to have a big church as much as we have a mandate for a clean church. If that seems too strong, it probably explains why some are scratching their heads in denial or bewilderment. They are asking themselves the questions; What happened to us? Is it really this bad? Hezekiah’s supreme loyalty to Jehovah was not only an attack against idolatry, but it was a sweeping and crushing condemnation of his own father’s conduct and decisions. Hezekiah even dared to touch the most venerable relic that for eight centuries had been viewed and preserved as the nation’s most sacred memorial. I am talking about the Brazen Serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness. That which was innocent, even commendable in itself, had to be abandoned. As treasured and innocent as it was, it had become an idol. It was impossible to disassociate it from wickedness. Even now it is impossible to disassociate television from idolatry.

Much like the purpose of the Brazen Serpent, some people are diluted enough to think that the world can look to us on television and be saved. Hezekiah refused to call it the “Brazen Serpent”. Instead, he used the euphemism, “A piece of brass”. I ask this question. Can an institution, once used by God to point people to Christ, be reduced to just a piece of brass? God forbid! Let time be our judge. Better yet, for our sakes, allow history to judge us now.

Finally Brethren, remember in these uncertain times that Truth stands alone. Truth needs no defense. Truth is not on trial. After 2 ½ years of Paul being on trial before Felix, Felix was actually on trial before Paul. Truth trumps Family, Organizations, Traditions, and Religious Institutions of any kind. Our loyalty is to Truth and Men of Truth only. Love Truth more than you love your own selves, more than your own ministries, more than the church you pastor, more than your closest fellowship. One man recently and pathetically announced that he would not leave his particular organization for anything. I wonder if that even means the violation of truth. The best thing I found going in this world is Truth and Truth alone. For where a man’s treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Yours in Christ,
Bill Pitman
Pastor

This has to be one of the most stupid things I've ever read.

[dizzyde]

I was always taught

Touch not mine anointed and do my prophet no harm.

We never talked about the man of God in a negative way. Even my backslidden kin folks would not talk evil of the man of God.

Do you hold those convictions when you are talking about a preacher that you don't agree with? As in, someone who doesn't preach it exactly the way that you believe? Or does that only hold for those who you agree with?

[Praxeas]

Do you hold those convictions when you are talking about a preacher that you don't agree with? As in, someone who doesn't preach it exactly the way that you believe? Or does that only hold for those who you agree with?
Or for that matter another saint? Since the "touch not my anointed" was referring to a King like Saul, not to pastors? IF we ignore that fact and apply it our own way why not apply it to ALL believers who ALL have the same Spirit of God (anointing)?

[Joseph Miller]

Or for that matter another saint? Since the "touch not my anointed" was referring to a King like Saul, not to pastors? IF we ignore that fact and apply it our own way why not apply it to ALL believers who ALL have the same Spirit of God (anointing)?


Good point.

[Whole Hearted]

I'm hoping your son is a lot older since he has a lot more minutes.:tantrum

He's 19 1/2.

[dizzyde]

bro booker has been personally very kind and complimentary to me in various places we have been scheduled together.

Believe me tho i have had some slams over the years.
When i was just about 7 or 8, i was messing around on the guitar in church and the pastors daughter cam up and accused me of playing "rockin' robin" I didnt even know what rocking robin was!!

When i was with an apostolic group in the early 90's i was approached by a young man, maybe 19-20 that told me he was offended by my playing. I really tried to be diplomatic and kind with him but he continued even after i told him a short version of my testimony and that i was giving my ability to God.

He then told me "you move around like the guys on MTV"

Wrong thing to say!!! My reply "i dont watch MTV do you?

We played in a lot of venues where people would come to the table and criticize me. I really didnt know it at the time because i never stood around the product table and was only told much later. Thank God for a buffer zone!!!

That would have been really hard on me because early on i thought everyone loved God and would have been devastated to think i was offending someone while i was celebrating freedom
from 10 years of bondage.


My daughter is in a group that has been banned from many UPC venues because they are considered "rock".

It is amazing, I have seen more response after they have finished ministering than I have from many of the other "acceptable" young singers and groups out there. It is such a joke, they come off the stage full of the spirit and praying with people, and there are people that are criticizing them because they don't like the style of music. SAD.

I've managed for the most part to shelter them from most of the negative stuff, it would crush them.

[dizzyde]

Or for that matter another saint? Since the "touch not my anointed" was referring to a King like Saul, not to pastors? IF we ignore that fact and apply it our own way why not apply it to ALL believers who ALL have the same Spirit of God (anointing)?

Exactly.

And the fact of the matter is that the Bible actually does teach us not to tear down our brothers and sisters, especially the ones who we perceive to be weaker.

[PastorD]

So now to be able to write a letter you must
1. Have a higher card than local??
2. Have a degreed education????

So Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men??

Nope....just some corn in the crib.

[Subdued]

Well I admire one thing and thats the dating thing... but the rest i have to say is a little out there. My kids all have cell phones... I do check their text messages if I have reason to feel there is a problem. But I know all of their friends and there is one friend my son has that is currently out of church. We have been working with her and I do still let her talk to my son but she is courteous enough that when she sends him a text she sends the same one to me because her words were "I dont want anyone to think anything wrong would ever go on he is my best friend" she is a wonderful young girl he met at church camp and I adore her to pieces.

I want my children to know I trust them and I too want them to have enough life experiences to make it in the real world. I have the same dating rule as you. I have a curfew for them also... 1030 for my oldest girl on school nights and midnight on weekends. (I dont worry about the weekends really because if she is gone she is at church) My youngest is 9 pm.. she is never usually out without me except for her "mentor" from church who takes her out once a week to do some girl stuff... And my son well... considering the church school basketball games havent been returning from them till after midnight lately... I just let that one be played by ear. But all of his friends are in our church and he also goes to school with them so he is usually with them and that lowers any risks quiet a bit. 3 of my 4 have their own laptops.. only one has internet access but it must be used in the living room and both computers are checked often to make sure nothing stupid happens.

I have children who werent always raised in church.. they hated that life. They are so happy with where they are now and their main goal in life is to live a life pleasing to God... I have set boundaries and they have seen these and they dont have to have a leash on their neck to survive. They will have to make mistakes.. some of them already have.. but they also have to learn from them... isnt that what life is all about?? With God as our guide we will return from those mistakes bigger and better and more in Love with Jesus than ever before!

:thumbsup:highfive:clap:yourock

[CC1]

I have only read the first page in this thread but I feel compelled to take a rightouss stand against sin.

Right here, right now I am calling for all Apostolic Pentecostals to rid themselves of their blenders!!!

Just the thought of what evil concoctions are mixed in blenders at hundreds of thousands of bars and private homes chills the mind (pun intended).

How can one use the same device that mixes margaritas and dacqueries to make smoothies or other innocent concoctions? The Bible says to avoid the very appearance of evil. What do people think when you pull that blender out of the cabinent to make your innocent little concoctions? They must be thinking that you REALLY have it because you are an alcoholic chugging drinks decorated with pretty umbrellas late at night when the shades are drawn. Shame on you! This is a clarion call to "dump the blender"!!!

[CC1]

My daughter is 14 and we got her a phone. She only has a 100 minute (my son has 700) and she is were closely watch. She doesn't have texting etc. either. Her computer time is monitored as is where she goes. Neither kid was (is) allowed to date until 16 and then only with a chaperone. And for my girl I must meet the boy and will call his pastor to inquire of him before there is a date.

I am so disappointed. I thought you were a TRUE conservative. TRUE conservatives don't let their kids under 18 have cell phones and no TRUE conservative of any age is on the internet.

If you don't believe me just ask the conservative pastor and conference speaker from Greely Colorado.

[Mrs. LPW]

I preach agasint all these and know many who do.

Do you preach against Golf?

[RevDWW]

I have only read the first page in this thread but I feel compelled to take a rightouss stand against sin.

Right here, right now I am calling for all Apostolic Pentecostals to rid themselves of their blenders!!!

Just the thought of what evil concoctions are mixed in blenders at hundreds of thousands of bars and private homes chills the mind (pun intended).

How can one use the same device that mixes margaritas and dacqueries to make smoothies or other innocent concoctions? The Bible says to avoid the very appearance of evil. What do people think when you pull that blender out of the cabinent to make your innocent little concoctions? They must be thinking that you REALLY have it because you are an alcoholic chugging drinks decorated with pretty umbrellas late at night when the shades are drawn. Shame on you! This is a clarion call to "dump the blender"!!!
***snort*** that there is funny! :toofunny

[Joseph Miller]

I am so disappointed. I thought you were a TRUE conservative. TRUE conservatives don't let their kids under 18 have cell phones and no TRUE conservative of any age is on the internet.

If you don't believe me just ask the conservative pastor and conference speaker from Greely Colorado.

I guess I ain't the only one who heard that.

[Hesetmefree238]

I really want to be consistent so I don't watch clips or anything else.

Why do you use the internet??? Doesn't it have more evil content than
TV or any other media outlet?

[RevDWW]

Why do you use the internet??? Doesn't it have more evil content than
TV or any other media outlet?

Don't you know that this kind of logic is of the devil??????? :shhh









:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

[Praxeas]

We cant preach against Over Eating for obvious reasons
We cant preach against cut hair and makeup because we have" transitional" saints that are coming along and we cant run the risk of offending them or losing them
we cant preach against internet because we all have it
we are running out of issues
sodomy (politically incorrect and there might be one in our church)
divorce and remarriage(how many of us are untouched by this one?)
golf
bowling
skating
imax
dvd's
sports

etc


We need TV It is the last bastion of who we are. If we dont at least have that then we are floundering for an issue and we might end up having to preach relationship, soulwinning, and
unity, holiness, using your time wisely, kindness, matters of the heart, fruits of the spirit, the beauty of the name.

I really want to be consistent so I don't watch clips or anything else.

same here
How about we just preach the word? Novel concept, I know...but doncha think the word is enough?

[RevDWW]

How about we just preach the word? Novel concept, I know...but doncha think the word is enough?

I wonder if the scriptural list of those that are not going to make it to heaven and the list of the fruit of the spirit were preached enough if you 'd have to get down to specifics like TV, bowling, etc.?

[AGAPE]

Since you are the one who started this thread, where did you get this letter?
Since you don't know him apparently. By your above statement.

What do you mean I don't know him....

He is a friend of mine....

only thing I don't know is whether he is local, general, or ordained by the org...

I don't carry a card and I don't ask others what their card says....

[PastorD]

My son was not allowed a cell phone until he was 18. He is 191/2 now and he is still not allowed texting or pictures. He is on my plan and his mother and I motor his usage.


I saw that you said your son has a new job in computers to become a draftsman. Is he a planning to go into the ministry also?

That whole "waste" statement makes me nervous.

[Michael Phelps]

Care to share some examples to back up your claim against this brother?

BUMP for Agape.

Concerning Bro. Mallory being wishy washy, FYI.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm not UPCI but I admire this brother's convictions,do I agree with everything he wrote ?no I do not but I have to admire someone for standing for their convictions.
Media is itself is amoral the use of it makes it good or evil.
If one form of media is wrong,then it's all wrong in my opinion.
But yes we must have Biblical Holiness and be a seperate people from the lifestyle of the ungodly,but we don't phariseeism either.

[AGAPE]

lawsuit against upc

[Cindy]

Brother there has never been a more real statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GLORAYYYYYYY! :toofunny:happydance

Now sis, how are they suppose to do the polka without an accordion??????:stirpot

[AGAPE]

PSR

[Cindy]

My son will be 12 in a few months and already has one. It's a safety thing with him.
If I had a DAUGHTER, I'd probably be monitoring her messaging, phone calls, internet access, and accommodating her on dates well into her 30's!
Thank GOD I don't have a daughter -I'd be her worst nightmare.

And how are you teaching your son to treat someone else's daughter?

[Mrs. LPW]

My question is for Whole HEarted and Agape and any other "UC"'s who might be reading and wish to answer.

Why do you preach against bowling? Do you preach against any/all types or forms of entertainment? What is specifically the reasoning behind bowling being wrong?

[Michael Phelps]

lawsuit against upc

???

Are you saying GM filed a lawsuit against the UPC?

[Cindy]

My question is for Whole HEarted and Agape and any other "UC"'s who might be reading and wish to answer.

Why do you preach against bowling? Do you preach against any/all types or forms of entertainment? What is specifically the reasoning behind bowling being wrong?

I think it's probably because some bowling alleys sell alcohol. As do most pro sports arenas.

[Mrs. LPW]

I think it's probably because some bowling alleys sell alcohol. As do most pro sports arenas.

The one I occasionally (and I mean... once a year) bowl at doesn't... it's extremely family oriented... So in our city it's not a bad witness to be seen in a bowling alley.

[Cindy]

The one I occasionally (and I mean... once a year) bowl at doesn't... it's extremely family oriented... So in our city it's not a bad witness to be seen in a bowling alley.

I think most bowling alleys are family oriented.

[ForeverBlessed]

And how are you teaching your son to treat someone else's daughter?

Now that is the question.. lol raising three teenage girls is NOT easy, but would be a little easier if there didn't seem to be such a double standard with the guys. I just don't agree with that "boys will be boys" statement I seem to hear far too often.


Well, this has been an interesting thread to read. Of course I think the letter is way off.. I am amazed at some UC's thinking... I never will understand.

It didn't take me long to realize who "Wink" was... good to see him here.
(I'm J.R's sister)

Hi Wink.. *wave*

[AmazingGrace]

Now sis, how are they suppose to do the polka without an accordion??????:stirpot

I prayed the accordian out of our last church and Lord help us! It was scary!!!!!! And to top it off... there is nothing worse than one... unless they cant even play it!!!!!!! :tantrum:tantrum That was me!!!! Our pastor jokingly said... If Bro Rob gets any bigger drum set we will have to move the accordian off the platform!!!! WELL GLORAYYYYYYYYY cuz he had a gift card from me and his mom to the local drum store!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I went shopping the next day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am NOT kidding either! LOL

[Wink]

Originally Posted by Wink
ok i can accept your point on the tv....why add tv to the mix

I dont know you and am not trying to belittle or criticize you.

couple of questions?

Is the lack of cell phones in the youth a rule or is it economically related?Most of our youth are younger. Cell phones for youth is up to the parents, most just don't think that kids need cell phones. My kids where not aloud to have cell phones until recently and they are on my plan and I monitor it. They do not have texting or pictures or any of that stuff.

I guess i should have included home computers as well as laptops in reference to the DVD drives.
they almost all have them. How are you able to police that?They are taught to have a filter and ask if they have one. So if they lie then they have another problem.
Do you encourage your youth to further their education and be successful even at the risk of
some of these technologies becoming an integral part of their lives? My son just got a new job with a computer, he is training as a draftsman. We have school teachers, foremen, retired bank president, retired school teacher. and so on, we are not a bunch of uneducated fools.
Do you have a gap between 18 and say 30 of youth that leave as soon as they finish high school?
Not really, the church I pastor is mostly younger.
Do you prohibit any secular music at all?Yes

Where do you draw the line on christian music?No rock and such and some of the contemporary





__________________________________________________ ______________


I do appreciate you taking the time to address my questions.

I was raised in a very conservative home. My dad trashed my imperials "sail on" album because
of "water grave"

Obviously this was before cell phones and computers but i was kept on a very short leash overall.

My dad was the assistant and not the pastor. Overall both of my pastors had good hearts but were rather cold as if kindness and gentleness would be a sign of weakness.

I left the minute i turned 18 and finished high school. I never felt comfortable around my pastors because they were so intimidating.

I have come to the conclusion that its not about the standards. I hear pastors say" if i let down my standards we would have a big church" That is a complete fallacy.

I have seen churches drop the "standards" and are smaller than ever.

Then i have been to churches that are very conservative and walk right and spit white and have a very large congregation.

Just my observation but the personality of a pastor determines his success. Some of the great churches i go to the pastor is not a conference or even a camp caliber speaker(i know its all the word) but they know how to show love and are very secure in themselves God and the people and the congregation responds to that and will bring people to church because they trust the personality of the pastor. I know all about acts 2/38 and all of the other protocol but lets be real here.

2 types of churches i am most uncomfortable at.

1. a church without truth because if we have an alter service and a sinner comes, where will he end up after im gone.

2. an apostolic church that is so tough that it makes me wonder if that baby has a chance.

I had almost rather be on the other extreme if given the 2 choices. At least the new convert wont get hammered too quick and if there areas that they need to change hopefully they are given time and then the spirit can lead and guide from that point.

When nehemiahs workers were building. They had one hand on the sword and the other hand was for building. Lesson to be followed.

I am so thankful that the church that i prayed thru at the pastor was such a super nice person to me. Huge responsibility being a pastor!!!

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Wink
ok i can accept your point on the tv....why add tv to the mix

I dont know you and am not trying to belittle or criticize you.

couple of questions?

Is the lack of cell phones in the youth a rule or is it economically related?Most of our youth are younger. Cell phones for youth is up to the parents, most just don't think that kids need cell phones. My kids where not aloud to have cell phones until recently and they are on my plan and I monitor it. They do not have texting or pictures or any of that stuff.

I guess i should have included home computers as well as laptops in reference to the DVD drives.
they almost all have them. How are you able to police that?They are taught to have a filter and ask if they have one. So if they lie then they have another problem.
Do you encourage your youth to further their education and be successful even at the risk of
some of these technologies becoming an integral part of their lives? My son just got a new job with a computer, he is training as a draftsman. We have school teachers, foremen, retired bank president, retired school teacher. and so on, we are not a bunch of uneducated fools.
Do you have a gap between 18 and say 30 of youth that leave as soon as they finish high school?
Not really, the church I pastor is mostly younger.
Do you prohibit any secular music at all?Yes

Where do you draw the line on christian music?No rock and such and some of the contemporary





__________________________________________________ ______________


I do appreciate you taking the time to address my questions.

I was raised in a very conservative home. My dad trashed my imperials "sail on" album because
of "water grave"

Obviously this was before cell phones and computers but i was kept on a very short leash overall.

My dad was the assistant and not the pastor. Overall both of my pastors had good hearts but were rather cold as if kindness and gentleness would be a sign of weakness.

I left the minute i turned 18 and finished high school. I never felt comfortable around my pastors because they were so intimidating.

I have come to the conclusion that its not about the standards. I hear pastors say" if i let down my standards we would have a big church" That is a complete fallacy.

I have seen churches drop the "standards" and are smaller than ever.

Then i have been to churches that are very conservative and walk right and spit white and have a very large congregation.

Just my observation but the personality of a pastor determines his success. Some of the great churches i go to the pastor is not a conference or even a camp caliber speaker(i know its all the word) but they know how to show love and are very secure in themselves God and the people and the congregation responds to that and will bring people to church because they trust the personality of the pastor. I know all about acts 2/38 and all of the other protocol but lets be real here.

2 places i hate to go

1. a church without truth because if we have an alter service and a sinner comes, where will he end up after im gone.

2. an apostolic church that is so tough that it makes me wonder if that baby has a chance.

I had almost rather be on the other extreme if given the 2 choices. At least the new convert wont get hammered too quick and if there areas that they need to change hopefully they are given time and then the spirit can lead and guide from that point.

When nehemiahs workers were building. They had one hand on the sword and the other hand was for building. Lesson to be followed.

I am so thankful that the church that i prayed thru at the pastor was such a super nice person to me. Huge responsibility being a pastor!!!

Great post!

[Wink]

Now that is the question.. lol raising three teenage girls is NOT easy, but would be a little easier if there didn't seem to be such a double standard with the guys. I just don't agree with that "boys will be boys" statement I seem to hear far too often.


Well, this has been an interesting thread to read. Of course I think the letter is way off.. I am amazed at some UC's thinking... I never will understand.

It didn't take me long to realize who "Wink" was... good to see him here.
(I'm J.R's sister)

Hi Wink.. *wave*

hi thanks for the wave

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by Wink
Just my observation but the personality of a pastor determines his success. Some of the great churches i go to the pastor is not a conference or even a camp caliber speaker(i know its all the word) but they know how to show love and are very secure in themselves God and the people and the congregation responds to that and will bring people to church because they trust the personality of the pastor. I know all about acts 2/38 and all of the other protocol but lets be real here.

2 types of churches i am most uncomfortable at.

1. a church without truth because if we have an alter service and a sinner comes, where will he end up after im gone.

2. an apostolic church that is so tough that it makes me wonder if that baby has a chance.

I had almost rather be on the other extreme if given the 2 choices. At least the new convert wont get hammered too quick and if there areas that they need to change hopefully they are given time and then the spirit can lead and guide from that point.

When nehemiahs workers were building. They had one hand on the sword and the other hand was for building. Lesson to be followed.

I am so thankful that the church that i prayed thru at the pastor was such a super nice person to me. Huge responsibility being a pastor!!!

I absolutely agree with you.

[ForeverBlessed]

hi thanks for the wave

Do you know if your coming back to Greenfield anytime soon?

[Wink]

how about Feb 3. CYA Soon!!

[ForeverBlessed]

how about Feb 3. CYA Soon!!

lol cool, didn't realize it would be that quick. :happydance

[Joseph Miller]

I think it's probably because some bowling alleys sell alcohol. As do most pro sports arenas.

The one I occasionally (and I mean... once a year) bowl at doesn't... it's extremely family oriented... So in our city it's not a bad witness to be seen in a bowling alley.


In our town we have a bowling alley called Family Lanes. You are not allowed to drink, cuss or wear clothing with cuss words. We go there. It is a good place for the family.

I understand that they are all not that way. We don't go to ones that serve alcohol.

[Fiyahstarter]

Anyone that knows me knows I still stand against those things such as women cutting their hair and long hair on men.

As far as Jewlery goes I do not preach against wedding rings or cufflinks.

Why not?

[Joseph Miller]

Why not?


They serve a purpose. Watches, cufflinks, and wedding rings all serve a purpose.

[Fiyahstarter]

They serve a purpose. Watches, cufflinks, and wedding rings all serve a purpose.

Does the scripture grant that exception? (It's a sin unless it serves a purpose?)

[MissBrattified]

Does the scripture grant that exception? (It's a sin unless it serves a purpose?)

Does scripture provide a prohibition in the first place?

[Joseph Miller]

Fiyahstarter you can't go to the UC favorite scripture as a no gold scripture because that verse also says not the putting on of appearl.

Also, why did the prodical's father give him a ring if it was a sin? We normally preach the father as being God.

[Fiyahstarter]

Fiyahstarter you can't go to the UC favorite scripture as a no gold scripture because that verse also says not the putting on of appearl.

I'm absolutely with you on this, Bro!!! I'll keep my clothes on, thank you. LOL! But I'll also keep my earrings on!


Also, why did the prodical's father give him a ring if it was a sin? We normally preach the father as being God.

I don't think ANY jewelry is a sin. I thought you did. And since I thought you did, I was wondering why certain jewelry items were exceptions.

(BTW - I don't agree with "excessive" jewelry, but I refrain from criticizing it either, because God hasn't granted me judgment... )

[Fiyahstarter]

Does scripture provide a prohibition in the first place?

In my opinion it does not prohibit.

[AnotherTrave]

:tvhappy

A mile wide and an inch deep...such water only grows reeds and rushes. I don't think I am ready for this stuff...

:eeeew

[Joseph Miller]

:tvhappy

A mile wide and an inch deep...such water only grows reeds and rushes. I don't think I am ready for this stuff...

:eeeew


You don't think you are ready for what?

[Michael Phelps]

They serve a purpose. Watches, cufflinks, and wedding rings all serve a purpose.

What purpose do cufflinks serve that buttons couldn't?

What purpose does a wedding ring serve that your actions couldn't?

And, if a wedding ring serves the purpose of letting people know you're married, wouldn't a class ring serve the purpose of letting people know you graduated?

And, what about tie pins? They serve a purpose.

Oh, and if you're only wearing the watch for the purpose it serves, do you wear a gold one? Any diamonds in it? If so, it's for more than it's intended purpose of telling time........

(Not my viewpoint, just pointing out some perceived inconsistencies)

[seguidordejesus]

The purpose argument is weak, IMO. The Scripture doesn't make that allowance. I don't disagree with people wearing those things, but there needs to be another reason.

[RandyWayne]

Fiyahstarter you can't go to the UC favorite scripture as a no gold scripture because that verse also says not the putting on of appearl.

Also, why did the prodical's father give him a ring if it was a sin? We normally preach the father as being God.

And why did Jesus make wine if it is to be prohibited? The list is long.

[Joseph Miller]

And why did Jesus make wine if it is to be prohibited? The list is long.


Being drunk in prohibited.