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StMark
02-07-2008, 03:14 PM
so far this is what I predict:


Hillary / Barak for the Democrats

McCain / Huckabee (or Gullioni)



who do you predict will win and who are you voting for ?????


I still predict the Dems are going to win in november

dizzyde
02-07-2008, 03:20 PM
I don't think there is any question that we will have a democratic president.

My dad said this morning that he is in a position that he has never been his entire adult life. He does not feel that he will be able to vote in the presidential election.

He said he cannot in good conscience vote for a president who supports abortion.

For him not to vote is pretty extreme, he is very patriotic. It has been years since I have seen him in a suit without a USA flag pin on his lapel.

StillStanding
02-07-2008, 03:21 PM
Hillery vs. McCain = McCain win!

Obama vs. McCain = Obama win!

Barb
02-07-2008, 03:21 PM
so far this is what I predict:


Hillary / Barak for the Democrats

McCain / Huckabee (or Gullioni)



who do you predict will win and who are you voting for ?????


I still predict the Dems are going to win in november

I agree the Dems will win...not sure which one, possibly Obama.

StMark
02-07-2008, 03:24 PM
Hillery vs. McCain = McCain win!

Obama vs. McCain = Obama win!


you would go for Obama?? that is shocking!!!!

StMark
02-07-2008, 03:25 PM
I agree the Dems will win...not sure which one, possibly Obama.


I strongly believe that obama is an undercover Muslim.

no one can change my mind so don't even try

StMark
02-07-2008, 03:25 PM
I don't think there is any question that we will have a democratic president.

My dad said this morning that he is in a position that he has never been his entire adult life. He does not feel that he will be able to vote in the presidential election.

He said he cannot in good conscience vote for a president who supports abortion.

For him not to vote is pretty extreme, he is very patriotic. It has been years since I have seen him in a suit without a USA flag pin on his lapel.

why wouldn't he vote for McCain?? McCain is anti abortion

BrotherEastman
02-07-2008, 03:29 PM
why wouldn't he vote for McCain?? McCain is anti abortion
He is?

StMark
02-07-2008, 03:31 PM
He is?


So I have been told. Deacon BLues said his record was impeccable on this

Barb
02-07-2008, 03:31 PM
I strongly believe that obama is an undercover Muslim.

no one can change my mind so don't even try

LOL!! I wasn't giving an endorsement, son...

retsambeW
02-07-2008, 03:32 PM
I predict St. Mark will not be elected President.
































:D

BrotherEastman
02-07-2008, 03:33 PM
So I have been told. Deacon BLues said his record was impeccable on this
McCain has got to be the most liberal republican I know. Hillary is more conservative than McCain is.

StMark
02-07-2008, 03:33 PM
LOL!! I wasn't giving an endorsement, son...


but you are going to support "your people" aren't you ??? :happydance

dizzyde
02-07-2008, 03:35 PM
So I have been told. Deacon BLues said his record was impeccable on this


On the record he has flip-flopped all over the map on where he exactly stands on the issue.

He has publicly stated that he would not support the repeal of Roe v. Wade.

BrotherEastman
02-07-2008, 03:35 PM
I strongly believe that obama is an undercover Muslim.

no one can change my mind so don't even try
Why do you beleive that?

rgcraig
02-07-2008, 03:35 PM
McCain has got to be the most liberal republican I know. Hillary is more conservative than McCain is.

But the facts are the he's voted 80% of the time conservative, so how can you really say this?

Barb
02-07-2008, 03:36 PM
but you are going to support "your people" aren't you ??? :happydance

LOL!! Cute...honest to goodness, I don't know who to vote for.

In the MI primary, I voted for the home boy...Romney...

Pressing-On
02-07-2008, 03:37 PM
The Patriots lost. I don't know anymore.

BrotherEastman
02-07-2008, 03:40 PM
But the facts are the he's voted 80% of the time conservative, so how can you really say this?
You mean he actually made up his mind 80% of the time?

StillStanding
02-07-2008, 03:41 PM
you would go for Obama?? that is shocking!!!!
I won't vote for ANY democrat! I'm just saying that Obama can beat McCain, but Hillery can't!

BrotherEastman
02-07-2008, 03:43 PM
I won't vote for ANY democrat! I'm just saying that Obama can beat McCain, but Hillery can't!
If thats the case, I hope hillary wins the democratic nomination.

StillStanding
02-07-2008, 03:47 PM
If thats the case, I hope hillary wins the democratic nomination.
:lalala:snapout:club:grumpy:banghead

StMark
02-07-2008, 03:48 PM
McCain has got to be the most liberal republican I know. Hillary is more conservative than McCain is.


HIllary more conservative then McCain???
I don't believe it. where do you get that??
he is pro military isn't he?

StMark
02-07-2008, 03:51 PM
Why do you beleive that?


My Brother has an article on it and read to me some of the highlights. his background was carefully investigated. He joined a church in chicago that in reality is NOT christian to begin with. finally, he joined as a cover.

Neck
02-07-2008, 03:53 PM
so far this is what I predict:


Hillary / Barak for the Democrats

McCain / Huckabee (or Gullioni)



who do you predict will win and who are you voting for ?????


I still predict the Dems are going to win in november

Obama wins the Nominee and selects someone like North Carolina Governor Tim Kaine as his running mate.

The Dem's will stick with youth.

So when Obama does his 8 years they will not have a half dead Dick Chaney left to fade away.

Look at the stupid republican Party.

Who ever saw a party stump speach of any party.

Where over your should you see a former liberal senator Libermann standing with you on the campain trail.

MeCain is a a decade to late.

From Bob Dole to John McCain.

Didn't we already run the half baked Senator ( I respect his war service) 12 years ago...

The republican Party just will not win.

I am going to leave the presidential section of my ballot blank in the general election in Nov.

I might even try to vote Dem in the Primary in Wisconsin to cast a vote against Hillary.

My goal now is to what I can to see her lose....

StMark
02-07-2008, 04:00 PM
Obama wins the Nominee and selects someone like North Carolina Governor Tim Kaine as his running mate.

The Dem's will stick with youth.

So when Obama does his 8 years they will not have a half dead Dick Chaney left to fade away.

Look at the stupid republican Party.

Who ever saw a party stump speach of any party.

Where over your should you see a former liberal senator Libermann standing with you on the campain trail.

MeCain is a a decade to late.

From Bob Dole to John McCain.

Didn't we already run the half baked Senator ( I respect his war service) 12 years ago...

The republican Party just will not win.

I am going to leave the presidential section of my ballot blank in the general election in Nov.

I might even try to vote Dem in the Primary in Wisconsin to cast a vote against Hillary.

My goal now is to what I can to see her lose....


McCain is old and needs to take up golfing and hang it up.
The R party would have done better with Romney i believe. he is younger and energetic.The economy is going into a recession and people are going vote their pocket books

tamor
02-07-2008, 04:03 PM
:lalala:snapout:club:grumpy:banghead

Psst. I think he was posting in your favor......

I'm just saying that Obama can beat McCain, but Hillery can't!

If thats the case, I hope hillary wins the democratic nomination.

Apprehended
02-07-2008, 04:03 PM
If there was ever a time that men and women know how to pray go to God in earnest prayer on the behalf of our great nation. This nation is facing great peril. But, if we pray, this peril can be postponed for a while.

China is putting their money in the development and strengthening their military. They have evil designs against us as does Russia and the Muslim nations. We are facing war unlike anything this nation has ever seen, including WWII or the Civil War. When God fully turns his back on us, a small nation no bigger than Venezeula can over run us with little difficulty...when God turn His back on us.

It is urgent that we pray for our nation. We are facing the perfect storm of Trade imbalance, deficits, stretched military, economic collapse, falling value of the dollar and moral slide into a collapse.

Neck
02-07-2008, 04:05 PM
McCain is old and needs to take up golfing and hang it up.
The R party would have done better with Romney i believe. he is younger and energetic.The economy is going into a recession and people are going vote their pocket books

You know I am alreade resigned to a Dem President. I feel the press lifted up McCain because they knew was not electable.

McCain is a very proud man.

He has shown his attitude towards the Republicab party.

The dems told Libermann to get out.

I know he is still a senator.

We as repbulican's what do we do?

We nominate our idiot...

StillStanding
02-07-2008, 04:05 PM
Psst. I think he was posting in your favor......
:eek: Oops!! You're right! :lol

Reading his post quickly, I thought he hoped Hillery would win the nomination for president!

Boy, do I feel stupid! :lol

StMark
02-07-2008, 04:07 PM
If there was ever a time that men and women know how to pray go to God in earnest prayer on the behalf of our great nation. This nation is facing great peril. But, if we pray, this peril can be postponed for a while.

China is putting their money in the development and strengthening their military. They have evil designs against us as does Russia and the Muslim nations. We are facing war unlike anything this nation has ever seen, including WWII or the Civil War. When God fully turns his back on us, a small nation no bigger than Venezeula can over run us with little difficulty...when God turn His back on us.

It is urgent that we pray for our nation. We are facing the perfect storm of Trade imbalance, deficits, stretched military, economic collapse, falling value of the dollar and moral slide into a collapse.

I agree. spiritually,you can see things setting up for the anti christ.

Bro Barnes said that if Al Gore would have won , the rapture already would have taken place because he would have accelerated the process. we "bought" time with Bush but if Hillary or Barak get in, we will go downhill fast

tamor
02-07-2008, 04:07 PM
:eek: Oops!! You're right! :lol

Reading his post quickly, I thought he hoped Hillery would win the nomination for president!

Boy, do I feel stupid! :lol


I figured that was what you thought, so I thought I would help ya out there! :toofunny

George
02-07-2008, 04:08 PM
I agree with StMark. You can't change my mind about Obama. I know there are many defending him saying he is not Muslim, but I believe he would be very sympathetic towards the radical Muslims. Furthermore, I saw the video of him on stage with several other political figures and the pledge of allegiance was recited and the national anthem sang. Obama never crossed his heart, recited or sang. The other political figures all crossed their heart, recited the pledge and crossed their heart for the singing of the national anthem. It was not a partial video. It showed the entire recital of the pledge and singing of the anthem. The camera remained on the stage for the endurance. If Obama cannot respect our flag nor pledge allegiance to our flag, I don't want him. I further find it disgusting he would disrespect our national anthem. BTW, the church he now attends pledges allegiance to Africa. They also have a minister on staff that ministers to "same gender loving couples."
http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

NO TO OBAMA!!! :girlytantrum I will vote for Hillary before I would vote for him.

StMark
02-07-2008, 04:08 PM
You know I am alreade resigned to a Dem President. I feel the press lifted up McCain because they knew was not electable.

McCain is a very proud man.

He has shown his attitude towards the Republicab party.

The dems told Libermann to get out.

I know he is still a senator.

We as repbulican's what do we do?

We nominate our idiot...


He is EXTREMELEY ARROGANT!!! i thought i was the only one who noticed that.

StillStanding
02-07-2008, 04:08 PM
I figured that was what you thought, so I thought I would help ya out there! :toofunny
Thanks! :thumbsup

Neck
02-07-2008, 04:08 PM
If there was ever a time that men and women know how to pray go to God in earnest prayer on the behalf of our great nation. This nation is facing great peril. But, if we pray, this peril can be postponed for a while.

China is putting their money in the development and strengthening their military. They have evil designs against us as does Russia and the Muslim nations. We are facing war unlike anything this nation has ever seen, including WWII or the Civil War. When God fully turns his back on us, a small nation no bigger than Venezeula can over run us with little difficulty...when God turn His back on us.

It is urgent that we pray for our nation. We are facing the perfect storm of Trade imbalance, deficits, stretched military, economic collapse, falling value of the dollar and moral slide into a collapse.

If China lines up according to the scriptures you could vote the Apostle Paul in as president. You simply can not turn the tide of what is to come..

I have voted every election national and local since the second term of Ronald Reagan.

I am sick of voting for men and woman that I would not want to give the time of day to because of their character.

Just to vote...

StMark
02-07-2008, 04:14 PM
I agree with StMark. You can't change my mind about Obama. I know there are many defending him saying he is not Muslim, but I believe he would be very sympathetic towards the radical Muslims. Furthermore, I saw the video of him on stage with several other political figures and the pledge of allegiance was recited and the national anthem sang. Obama never crossed his heart, recited or sang. The other political figures all crossed their heart, recited the pledge and crossed their heart for the singing of the national anthem. It was not a partial video. It showed the entire recital of the pledge and singing of the anthem. The camera remained on the stage for the endurance. If Obama cannot respect our flag nor pledge allegiance to our flag, I don't want him. I further find it disgusting he would disrespect our national anthem. BTW, the church he now attends pledges allegiance to Africa. They also have a minister on staff that ministers to "same gender loving couples."http://www.tucc.org/about.htm


NO TO OBAMA!!! I will vote for Hillary before I would vote for him.

And there you have it Eastman

Check out this link! this is the link of the church that Obama is a member of.

http://www.tucc.org/home.htm


look what happend to their choir director a few months ago

http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/was-murdered-gay-choir-director-a-saint/

Tina
02-07-2008, 04:14 PM
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/

For those who are undecided on how you want to vote-- You can go to the link above and click on the profile of each candidate to see where they stand on issues.

Neck
02-07-2008, 04:16 PM
He is EXTREMELEY ARROGANT!!! i thought i was the only one who noticed that.

McCain is so stupid he actually believes he has a message that will resignate with the conservative part of his party!

I think that the real conservative in our party will have fun watching him lose.

Not by voting for the Dem.

But not voting for him.

It will be our way of saying you better retire in 2009 and file for your Social Security Benefits.

Because you will have a Dem President in office for the next 8-16 years.

By the time our party realizes just how stupid they have been.

John McCain will have been dead for 5-10 years....

My mom is 75 and I am sorry I would not want her running my household muchless the entire country....

I would rather have McCain's wife be the nominee.

She can atleast speak and not look ticked off.....

McCain reminds me of the 1 angry usher we all have at out church.

The one you want to put a tack on his chair just after the offering music stops....

Have fun McCain you will win as much as the Washington National's will win in 2008.

I think they should have him throw out the first pitch in April...

I bet his pitch will not make the catcher.

Just like his message is not reaching us conservatives...

Neck
02-07-2008, 04:19 PM
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/

For those who are undecided on how you want to vote-- You can go to the link above and click on the profile of each candidate to see where they stand on issues.


I will not vote for Mutiny McCain.

I think the press should pick up my nickname for him....

Neck
02-07-2008, 04:26 PM
I agree with StMark. You can't change my mind about Obama. I know there are many defending him saying he is not Muslim, but I believe he would be very sympathetic towards the radical Muslims. Furthermore, I saw the video of him on stage with several other political figures and the pledge of allegiance was recited and the national anthem sang. Obama never crossed his heart, recited or sang. The other political figures all crossed their heart, recited the pledge and crossed their heart for the singing of the national anthem. It was not a partial video. It showed the entire recital of the pledge and singing of the anthem. The camera remained on the stage for the endurance. If Obama cannot respect our flag nor pledge allegiance to our flag, I don't want him. I further find it disgusting he would disrespect our national anthem. BTW, the church he now attends pledges allegiance to Africa. They also have a minister on staff that ministers to "same gender loving couples."
http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

NO TO OBAMA!!! :girlytantrum I will vote for Hillary before I would vote for him.

You can't rewrite the history of the disgusting Clinton family. They are supposed to be christians and some UPCI Apostates actully support them.

How about AM.

I have seen the shame and smerk of the Clintons for far too long.

I am not saying that I did not support Greorg 'W" Bush.

But have we not already seen what a second Bush could do?

You will get the same minor league Clinton when and if Hillary get's in...

Can you imagine what Bill will be doing in the Oval office for the next 8 years...

With all that free time on his hands...

I bet he as many "Flowers" delivered to the Hillary's office...

George
02-07-2008, 05:33 PM
You can't rewrite the history of the disgusting Clinton family. They are supposed to be christians and some UPCI Apostates actully support them.

How about AM.

I have seen the shame and smerk of the Clintons for far too long.

I am not saying that I did not support Greorg 'W" Bush.

But have we not already seen what a second Bush could do?

You will get the same minor league Clinton when and if Hillary get's in...

Can you imagine what Bill will be doing in the Oval office for the next 8 years...

With all that free time on his hands...

I bet he as many "Flowers" delivered to the Hillary's office...

AM and the Clintons is none of my business. What they do outside of the political arena is their perogative. I just made a statement I would vote for Hillary before I would vote for Obama. In other words, if my choices were only Hillary and Obama, I will take her. At least Hillary does have allegiance to our country and hasn't aligned herself to Africa.

Neck
02-07-2008, 05:44 PM
AM and the Clintons is none of my business. What they do outside of the political arena is their perogative. I just made a statement I would vote for Hillary before I would vote for Obama. In other words, if my choices were only Hillary and Obama, I will take her. At least Hillary does have allegiance to our country and hasn't aligned herself to Africa.


I made my own statement it was not a response to yours.

The words I wrote were me standing up.

Not a reflection to your opinions.

Ron
02-07-2008, 06:55 PM
If one turns on the light & sees their own shadow then we are going to have 4 more years of winter!!!:D

Neck
02-07-2008, 07:05 PM
If one turns on the light & sees their own shadow then we are going to have 4 more years of winter!!!:D

And the fallout will result in a Nuclear Winter.

Neck
02-07-2008, 07:06 PM
I will not vote for Mutiny McCain.

I think the press should pick up my nickname for him....

So I turned on Fox news.

What was under a clip of McCain?

The title: McCain Mutiny

I almost fell out.

They put my nickname up for him within a few minutes....

TalkLady
02-07-2008, 07:15 PM
Read all the way down....According to this rating, John McCain is more conservative than Obama and Hillary but look at who you are comparing him to.

This is from: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/mccains_acu_ratings.html

Senator John McCain's lifetime rating of 82.3% from the American Conservative Union is often cited as proof that he is conservative. Here is a closer look at that 82.3 rating.


First, a rating of 82.3 is not really that high. It puts Senator McCain in 39th place among senators serving in 2006, the latest year for which the ACU has its ratings posted online. For that most recent year in particular, McCain scored only 65, putting him in 47th place for that year. Ben Nelson (D-NE) and Chuck Hagel (R-NE), for example, scored 64 and 75, respectively, in 2006.


Generally, McCain has voted less conservatively in more recent years. His average for 1990-97 was 88, but was only 74 for 1998-2006. Below are his yearly ratings since 1990.


Year
ACU Rating

2006
65

2005
80

2004
72

2003
80

2002
72

2001
68

2000
81

1999
77

1998
68

1997
80

1996
95

1995
91

1994
96

1993
83

1992
85

1991
86

1990
87



So where did McCain differ from the ACU? The big areas were taxes, campaign finance reform, the environment and, most recently, immigration. There was also a smattering of support for trial lawyers; federal intervention in health, education, safety or voting issues; internationalism; and some social issues. He was more consistently conservative on spending and defense issues. The list below summarizes all his votes since 1998 that differed from the ACU's position.


Year and Issue
Vote Margin

2006, Taxes
50-50

2006, Immigration
50-49

2006, Immigration
62-36

2006, Social: Same Sex Marriage
49-48

2006, Native Hawaiian Govt.
56-41

2006, International: Iran sanctions
54-45

2006, Immigration: Border Fence
71-29

2006, Social: Embryonic Stem Cells
63-37

2005, Taxes
51-49

2005, Environment: Climate Change
60-38

2005, Environment: mercury emissions
51-47

2005, Environment: ANWR
51-48

2005, Taxes: Oil & gas development
51-48

2004, Spending/Social: School vouchers
65-28

2004, Regulation: seat belts
57-41

2004, Legal Reform: Gun manufacturers
70-27

2004, Spending: Unemployment
58-39

2004, Taxes
51-48

2004, Spending: Education of disabled
56-41

2004, Legal Reform: Torts
44-43

2003, Taxes
50-50

2003, Taxes
50-50

2003, Taxes
51-49

2003, Environment: Kyoto
55-43

2002, Voter fraud, state control
55-40

2002, Regulation: SUV fuel efficiency
56-44

2002, CFR
60-40

2002, Taxes: death tax
55-44

2001, CFR
69-31

2001, CFR
60-40

2001, CFR
57-43

2001, Taxes: marriage penalty
73-27

2001, Taxes: capital gains
51-47

2001, Taxes
58-33

2001, Taxes/Health: med. savings accounts
53-45

2001, Legal Reform: torts
54-42

2000, Taxes
56-44

2000, International: Troops in Kosovo
53-47

2000, CFR: Brad Smith on FEC
65-35

2000, CFR
57-42

1999, International: Troops in Kosovo
N/A

1999, Health: managed care
N/A

1999, Spending
N/A

1999, CFR
N/A

1998, Health: surgeon general confirm.
75-23

1998, CFR
50-47

1998, CFR
50-48

1998, CFR
51-48

1998, Taxes: tobacco
72-26

1998, Taxes: tobacco
57-42

1998, International: Troops in Bosnia
65-31

1998, International: IMF lending
74-19




Another piece of information from the list above is that many of the votes were close. In one third of these votes, a swing of only two senators would have changed the outcome. In over two thirds, a swing of ten senators would have changed the outcome. As someone remarked, McCain is like a baseball player who gets all his hits after two outs and no one on base, and all his outs with men in scoring position.


As might be expected, ACU ratings essentially reflect party affiliation. At the halfway point, ranking 50th, we have Richard Shelby (R-AL, formerly D-AL) with a lifetime score of 74.2. But Robert Byrd (D-WV) ranks just slightly lower at 58th, with a score of only 29.6. By the time you get to 66th place, all scores are below 20.


What this means is that McCain's ACU ratings since 1998 put him on the liberal side among Republicans. The few Republicans consistently more liberal than McCain would be Chafee (formerly R-RI), Collins (R-ME), Snowe (R-ME) and Specter (R-PA). One could expect senators from northeastern states to be more liberal since their constituencies demand it, but McCain represents the fairly conservative state of Arizona. (Arizona's other senator, Kyl, has a lifetime rating of 96.9, and half the representatives from there have ratings of 94.7 or higher.)


How much more liberal would McCain vote if his constituency put even the slightest pressure on him in that direction?


On the other hand, Senator Clinton (D-NY) has a lifetime ACU rating of 9 (83rd place) and Senator Obama (D-IL) has a rating of 8 (86th place).


Not much the cheer about here.

Blubayou
02-07-2008, 07:20 PM
We are having our primary this Saturday and for the first time I will not be voting. I am a registered Democrat ( long story) and this is the first closed primary we have had in years. So, I can only vote for the Democratic candidate. I cannot vote for Obama, I do believe he has Muslim leanings, and I am not thrilled about Hillary. So, I will not vote. I doubt I will vote in the general election either. I am very surprised at the momentum that Obama has gotten! The talking heads say it is the young people that are supporting him. I just wonder if they will get out and vote?

StMark
02-07-2008, 11:08 PM
We are having our primary this Saturday and for the first time I will not be voting. I am a registered Democrat ( long story) and this is the first closed primary we have had in years. So, I can only vote for the Democratic candidate. I cannot vote for Obama, I do believe he has Muslim leanings, and I am not thrilled about Hillary. So, I will not vote. I doubt I will vote in the general election either. I am very surprised at the momentum that Obama has gotten! The talking heads say it is the young people that are supporting him. I just wonder if they will get out and vote?


I'm a registered Democrat too but I will NEVER vote for Obama!
This man refused to salute the flag. This guy is anti American and anti christian! and I believe if he becomes president that he'll be sworn in on the Koran.

George
02-07-2008, 11:18 PM
I'm a registered Democrat too but I will NEVER vote for Obama!
This man refused to salute the flag. This guy is anti American adn anti christian! and I believe if he becomes president that he'll be sworn in on the Koran.

I agree.

jrLA
02-07-2008, 11:21 PM
You can't rewrite the history of the disgusting Clinton family. They are supposed to be christians and some UPCI Apostates actully support them.

How about AM.

I have seen the shame and smerk of the Clintons for far too long.

I am not saying that I did not support Greorg 'W" Bush.

But have we not already seen what a second Bush could do?

You will get the same minor league Clinton when and if Hillary get's in...

Can you imagine what Bill will be doing in the Oval office for the next 8 years...

With all that free time on his hands...

I bet he as many "Flowers" delivered to the Hillary's office...


Your words flow a little too freely at times. Please be careful what you say about men of God. Just because AM is friends with the Clintons, does not mean that he supports their political agenda. He is a man of integrity. :boxing

StMark
02-07-2008, 11:24 PM
Your words flow a little too freely at times. Please be careful what you say about men of God. Just because AM is friends with the Clintons, does not mean that he supports their political agenda. He is a man of integrity. :boxing

I was told that the first time Clinton ran,Vesta admonished POA to vote democratic. jrLA, you're a democrat, what do you plan to do ??

crakjak
02-07-2008, 11:33 PM
McCain has got to be the most liberal republican I know. Hillary is more conservative than McCain is.

This is not true, Easty, McCain has a 100% pro-life record. How could you possibly believe that?

I will vote simply because I cannot bare the thoughts of Hill/Bill and or Obomba!:girlytantrum

crakjak
02-07-2008, 11:34 PM
I was told that the first time Clinton ran,Vesta admonished POA to vote democratic. jrLA, you're a democrat, what do you plan to do ??

Blasphemy I tell you, Blasphemy!!!!:toofunny

jrLA
02-07-2008, 11:39 PM
I was told that the first time Clinton ran,Vesta admonished POA to vote democratic. jrLA, you're a democrat, what do you plan to do ??

THAT, my friend is NOT true!

And don't insult me.... I am not a Demorcrat! I am a proud Republican.:girlytantrum

jrLA
02-07-2008, 11:40 PM
I am a registered Republican and will vote for Mike Huckabee on Saturday!

Aquila
02-07-2008, 11:45 PM
My Brother has an article on it and read to me some of the highlights. his background was carefully investigated. He joined a church in chicago that in reality is NOT christian to begin with. finally, he joined as a cover.

Factcheck.com

Sliming Obama
January 10, 2008
Dueling chain e-mails claim he's a radical Muslim or a 'racist' Christian. Both can't be right. We find both are false.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_obama.html

I know a preacher that read one of these emails over the pulpit and preached for nearly 15 minutes about how America is going to hell in a hand basket and how Obama is a Muslim not a Christian.

It made me sick. Sadly Christians cannot be counted on to tell the truth anymore. They will believe any bit of rightwing propaganda they hear. I assure you this is doing more harm to America than most realize.

StMark
02-07-2008, 11:48 PM
THAT, my friend is NOT true!

And don't insult me.... I am not a Demorcrat! I am a proud Republican.:girlytantrum


I have a friend in that church that was there when she said it.
she is a proud southern Democrat and doesn't care who knows it jr.
when VL was here, she told me that folks almost have to be a "D" or it could land you in serious trouble

jrLA
02-07-2008, 11:53 PM
I have a friend in that church that was there when she said it.
she is a proud southern Democrat and doesn't care who knows it jr.
when VL was here, she told me that folks almost have to be a "D" or it could land you in serious trouble


I am sorry to inform you...you were informed incorrectly.

Democrat used to mean different things and in the south it was a sacred thing to be a "D" as you put it. But, many things have changed in the south. That is one. There are many Rep in the south and proudly so. As well, no one tells their church HOW or WHO to vote for, or they shouldn 't. I have told my church to vote morals or conscience, but NEVER how or who.

I do not believe the Sis. Vesta made that statement, I have heard AM talk about this stuff before. He is a CONSERVATIVE--politically!

And VL may have said in jest, but trust me....there are people with morals around here!

Aquila
02-07-2008, 11:54 PM
Here's a must read for truly innovative thinkers looking for a new expression of Christian politics.

http://www.northlandchurch.net/conservative/index.html

StMark
02-07-2008, 11:59 PM
I know a preacher that read one of these emails over the pulpit and preached for nearly 15 minutes about how America is going to hell in a hand basket and how Obama is a Muslim not a Christian.

It made me sick. Sadly Christians cannot be counted on to tell the truth anymore. They will believe any bit of rightwing propaganda they hear. I assure you this is doing more harm to America than most realize.


Sister Aquila, I'm with you about this pastor going off about Obama over the puplit. that was wrong. I don't believe politics have a place in the pulpit. I think it's also wrong for the dems to campaign in all the churches that they do as well.

we have a LARGE church here in CA. where the pastor got up and told the people that if they didn't vote republican that they would be committing a sin. that was wrong too.

however, I do believe that obama is undercover. I believe he is anti american and NOTHING ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING will change my mind on that!!!

George
02-08-2008, 12:37 AM
I made my own statement it was not a response to yours.

The words I wrote were me standing up.

Not a reflection to your opinions.

Since you quoted me, I took it as a response.

Ron
02-08-2008, 12:40 AM
Sister Aquila, I'm with you about this pastor going off about Obama over the puplit. that was wrong. I don't believe politics have a place in the pulpit. I think it's also wrong for the dems to campaign in all the churches that they do as well.

we have a LARGE church here in CA. where the pastor got up and told the people that if they didn't vote republican that they would be committing a sin. that was wrong too.

however, I do believe that obama is undercover. I believe he is anti american and NOTHING ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING will change my mind on that!!!

In Canada, if a candidate is endorsed in Church, you could be in danger of losing your Charitable Status as Non Profit Org (Churches) are not to be political.

Lose your Charitable Status and all your Tax Receipts to contributers are worthless in regards to a tax break.

StMark
02-08-2008, 12:45 AM
In Canada, if a candidate is endorsed in Church, you could be in danger of losing your Charitable Status as Non Profit Org (Churches) are not to be political.

Lose your Charitable Status and all your Tax Receipts to contributers are worthless in regards to a tax break.


I don't think our churches are suppose to endorse a candidate either but they kinda look the other way here in the states.
I heard that in canada,your churches can't preach against homosexuality. word is, that some have even been arrested or had their church shut down.

Praxeas
02-08-2008, 12:48 AM
My Brother has an article on it and read to me some of the highlights. his background was carefully investigated. He joined a church in chicago that in reality is NOT christian to begin with. finally, he joined as a cover.
That church is as Christian as any other Christian church in America. What people don't like about it is it's seeming "racist" agenda....not just afro-centric, but even praising L Farrakhan..

There is no evidence he joined as a cover AND...good grief...if he wanted cover why not chose something less controversial than that church?

Praxeas
02-08-2008, 12:49 AM
In Canada, if a candidate is endorsed in Church, you could be in danger of losing your Charitable Status as Non Profit Org (Churches) are not to be political.

Lose your Charitable Status and all your Tax Receipts to contributers are worthless in regards to a tax break.
churches can lose their tax exempt status for telling people what candidate to vote for or not to vote for is my understanding

StMark
02-08-2008, 12:54 AM
Prax, what do you think of Hillary's health plan for all Americans???

Ron seems to think it's a great Idea.

Praxeas
02-08-2008, 01:51 AM
Prax, what do you think of Hillary's health plan for all Americans???

Ron seems to think it's a great Idea.
Ron is Canadian....Id say...if we can get the filthy rich to pay taxes instead of finding tax loopholes and shuffling their money into off shore accounts etc etc...and to help pay for it then I am all for it.

But all too often the burden goes on the middle class.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 04:45 AM
Sister Aquila, I'm with you about this pastor going off about Obama over the puplit. that was wrong. I don't believe politics have a place in the pulpit. I think it's also wrong for the dems to campaign in all the churches that they do as well.

we have a LARGE church here in CA. where the pastor got up and told the people that if they didn't vote republican that they would be committing a sin. that was wrong too.

however, I do believe that obama is undercover. I believe he is anti american and NOTHING ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING will change my mind on that!!!

Bro...why did you call me "Sister Aquila"? Don't you know your Bible? Aquila was the husband of Prisca (Percila) and the two assisted Paul, risking their own lives for him at one point.

Bro, I'm a bro. You can't call my gender correctly but you expect me to believe you have the "goosebumps" telling you Obama is a secret Muslim? lol :D You know, he's opened sessions by introducing Christian Chaplains (who pray in Jesus name by the way) and he leads with reciting the pledge. Don't believe every email rumor you read bro. If I were you, I'd ask myself if my feelings about Obama were "rational" (based on objective facts) or "irrational" (based on emotional bias). There may be some subconscious psychological triggers you've not dealt with effecting your opinions. Just think about it. ;)

Aquila
02-08-2008, 05:05 AM
Oh...and here's Obama being sworn in by Vice President Dick Cheney...with his hand on their family BIBLE. Not the Koran...the Bible.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/10/16/t1home.cheneyobama.gi.jpg

Jeeeesh. The rightwing has made us weirder and weirder. lol

We need to put more value on the truth folks.

Monkeyman
02-08-2008, 05:43 AM
Oh...and here's Obama being sworn in by Vice President Dick Cheney...with his hand on their family BIBLE. Not the Koran...the Bible.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/10/16/t1home.cheneyobama.gi.jpg

Jeeeesh. The rightwing has made us weirder and weirder. lol

We need to put more value on the truth folks.Here is what I cannot wrap my head around...7 years 2 months after 9-11, we may elect a prez with that name...could you imagine doing this in 2001??? Weird

augustianian
02-08-2008, 05:53 AM
There is no doubt in my mind. The next president of the United States of America will be.......(drum roll please)..........Billary Clinton.

McCain has no shot and his nomination will be in McVain.

America has a short memory. They have forgotten the mess liberalism left this country in....Billary's going to remind them.

a

scotty
02-08-2008, 06:05 AM
Obama wins the Nominee and selects someone like North Carolina Governor Tim Kaine as his running mate.

The Dem's will stick with youth.

So when Obama does his 8 years they will not have a half dead Dick Chaney left to fade away.

Look at the stupid republican Party.
Keep reading


Who ever saw a party stump speach of any party.
(huh????)

Where over your should you see a former liberal senator Libermann standing with you on the campain trail.
(huh????)

MeCain is a a decade to late.
McCain

From Bob Dole to John McCain.

Didn't we already run the half baked Senator ( I respect his war service) 12 years ago...

The republican Party just will not win.

I am going to leave the presidential section of my ballot blank in the general election in Nov.

I might even try to vote Dem in the Primary in Wisconsin to cast a vote against Hillary.

My goal now is to what I can to see her lose....
huh????



I truly believe the uneducated shouldn't vote, so you leaving your ballot blank is a blessing.

Fiyahstarter
02-08-2008, 07:03 AM
I do believe that obama is undercover. I believe he is anti american and NOTHING ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING will change my mind on that!!!

We agree on something... finally!

tamor
02-08-2008, 07:25 AM
Here is what I cannot wrap my head around...7 years 2 months after 9-11, we may elect a prez with that name...could you imagine doing this in 2001??? Weird

THANK YOU!! My thoughts exactly!!

Aquila
02-08-2008, 07:25 AM
I don't mean this in any inflamatory or accusatory way...but why would anyone believe something about somebody that isn't true? I think for many his color and/or his name frightens them.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 07:36 AM
There is no doubt in my mind. The next president of the United States of America will be.......(drum roll please)..........Billary Clinton.

She has an excellent chance. The Republicans have messed things up so bad many people are thinking about changing the guard because it would be better to see what the Democrats can do than keep on the present course.

McCain has no shot and his nomination will be in McVain.

I agree.

America has a short memory. They have forgotten the mess liberalism left this country in....Billary's going to remind them.
a

Can you be more specific? What mess did Liberalism leave us in?

chosenbyone
02-08-2008, 07:41 AM
I don't mean this in any inflamatory or accusatory way...but why would anyone believe something about somebody that isn't true? I think for many his color and/or his name frightens them.

I think you may be right.

Monkeyman
02-08-2008, 08:00 AM
I don't mean this in any inflamatory or accusatory way...but why would anyone believe something about somebody that isn't true? I think for many his color and/or his name frightens them.Color no, name yes, call me whatever you would like. Next you gonna tell me after WWII we would haver elected Adolf Schmitler?????????
Yea riiiight

DividedThigh
02-08-2008, 08:08 AM
i am not thrilled with it, but i think it will be mccain against the dem, either hilary or obama, i think hilary will get the nod, i just hope we dont end up with her as pres, ewww, dt:tvhappy

Aquila
02-08-2008, 08:15 AM
Color no, name yes, call me whatever you would like. Next you gonna tell me after WWII we would haver elected Adolf Schmitler?????????
Yea riiiight

If the man stood an actual chance of making some positive change for the country I'd vote for him. His name isn't an issue...it's the issues that is the issue. The Republicans are secretive globalist elite who are working on draining the American economy into Mexico, China, and the third world to weaken us and cause us to have to join their New World Order. The Republicans have become masters at using religion to manipulate us and make us loyal little drones that vote for them. The Clintons are also cozy with this crowd. The only one who stands a chance to win who isn't entirely owned by this group is Obama. In their minds had to be one of their own, either a Republican or a Clinton. But they underestimated Barak. He's the only candidate who is a man of the people as Kennedy was. That's why if he does win, 2 to 1 I think there will be attempts on his life.

Don't trust the Republicans. And the Clintons have become so cozy with these globalists odds are they are bought and paid for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3031717.stm

rgcraig
02-08-2008, 08:47 AM
If the man stood an actual chance of making some positive change for the country I'd vote for him. His name isn't an issue...it's the issues that is the issue. The Republicans are secretive globalist elite who are working on draining the American economy into Mexico, China, and the third world to weaken us and cause us to have to join their New World Order. The Republicans have become masters at using religion to manipulate us and make us loyal little drones that vote for them. The Clintons are also cozy with this crowd. The only one who stands a chance to win who isn't entirely owned by this group is Obama. In their minds had to be one of their own, either a Republican or a Clinton. But they underestimated Barak. He's the only candidate who is a man of the people as Kennedy was. That's why if he does win, 2 to 1 I think there will be attempts on his life.

Don't trust the Republicans. And the Clintons have become so cozy with these globalists odds are they are bought and paid for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3031717.stm

How much experience does Obama have? :girlytantrum

Ferd
02-08-2008, 09:06 AM
No party with a sitting president, having an approval rating below 50% has won the white house.

No woman has ever had a chance and not African American has ever had a chance.

my prediction is that no one can win the white house!

but someone will.


If McCain wins, it will be the deathnell for conservitism as a movement. If Barak or Hillary wins, it will be the spark of rebirth for the republican conservitive movement.

the cost will be a lost generation and a supremecourt that will be unchangable until somewhere arond 2025 or 2030.

If McCain wins, it couldspark the birth of a viable third party. a Democrat win will leave our men and women in the Armed Service hung out to dry and America vulnerable to attack.

tamor
02-08-2008, 09:06 AM
How much experience does Obama have? :girlytantrum

:popcorn2

scotty
02-08-2008, 09:27 AM
If the man stood an actual chance of making some positive change for the country I'd vote for him. His name isn't an issue...it's the issues that is the issue. The Republicans are secretive globalist elite who are working on draining the American economy into Mexico, China, and the third world to weaken us and cause us to have to join their New World Order. The Republicans have become masters at using religion to manipulate us and make us loyal little drones that vote for them. The Clintons are also cozy with this crowd. The only one who stands a chance to win who isn't entirely owned by this group is Obama. In their minds had to be one of their own, either a Republican or a Clinton. But they underestimated Barak. He's the only candidate who is a man of the people as Kennedy was. That's why if he does win, 2 to 1 I think there will be attempts on his life.

Don't trust the Republicans. And the Clintons have become so cozy with these globalists odds are they are bought and paid for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3031717.stm


Your joking right?!?!...this conspiracy theory has been floating around for decades. Obama is too young to be a part of the group and has no power under his belt, if he becomes president then he too will join the club. :drama

But I will give your post credit for good entertainment...

:icecream :coffee2 :popcorn2 :girlpopcorn

Aquila
02-08-2008, 09:36 AM
That's the point...Obama doesn't have that much experience...that's why he’s the best candidate for the job. The longer anyone is in Washington the more they become beholden to the globalist interests who are trying to manipulate everything. Obama a wildcard in the globalist agenda, he's not been in Washington long enough for them to ensure that he has been made into one of them.

The least experience a candidate has, the more likely he’ll challenge the globalist agenda and side with the people. The more experience (or billionaire multi-national corporate connections) a candidate has in Washington the more likely he’ll tell us what we want to here but march according to the beat set by the free market globalists who are forming a massive global corporate beast that subverts democracy and manipulates national governments, currencies, trade, and banking systems to aggregate the world’s wealth into it’s control. Right now their goal is to drain the American economy into Mexico, China, and the third world with their “free trade” mumbo jumbo. We need to go back to “fair trade” policies (primarily advocated by Democrats) that are more protectionist toward our national economic interests. Here’s a note to focus on. The globalists have complete control of the RNC. They buy Democrats all the time, but Democrats are a thorn in their side, hence the massive slander campaign against all things Democrat in corporately owned news and information sources. The Democrats have fought for a seat at the table but their goals are far different from the globalist elite right now. The Democrats envision a world government founded on Democracy and human rights (some of which we disagree with). But the Republican free market globalists want a massive global Corporatocracy that possesses all wealth, is unelected, and un-beholden to the people it serves. This will be a global Corporatocracy that can use its money to influence elections and buy national leaders that are willing to further its globalist agenda. Your choices are…a loose alliance of nations functioning as a global social democracy…or a global dictatorship controlled by the corporate globalist elite.

That’s why we desperately need a man of the people, not an established pawn in their game.

Here’s the down side to this. Even if you elect a man of the people this election…by the time he’s up for a second term the globalists have typically co-opted him to adopt their agenda. Kennedy was an exception…but you see what they did to him. So we need to exercise democracy wisely. Right now the globalist elite are conducting smear campaigns to destroy politicians who begin listening to the people. If they don’t harm Obama… they will smear him to kingdom come with as much dirt they can to neutralize his political clout and try to discredit him in the eyes of the people he serves and destroy his chances of having any real power in politics again. We need to change up pro-democracy leaders every four years. The longer they’re in office the more likely they’ll become one of them. Notice how they treat their own…Republicans have been caught in scandalous immoral situations and it makes the news (the can’t hide it) but no one is talking about it now. Most couldn’t name but one or two indiscretions. But…if a President was beginning to be a man of the people…they’ll make sure it’s burned into our consciousness and that we’re talking about it 10 or 20 years later.

Neck
02-08-2008, 09:40 AM
Here is what I cannot wrap my head around...7 years 2 months after 9-11, we may elect a prez with that name...could you imagine doing this in 2001??? Weird

I will not judge a man by his name but the content of his Character.

Sound familiar?

He did not change his name he was given it at birth.

I do not agree with his views, but I will not judge him for his name.

George
02-08-2008, 09:42 AM
I WON'T VOTE FOR OBAMA!!!
:girlytantrum :girlytantrum :girlytantrum :girlytantrum :girlytantrum

Neck
02-08-2008, 09:47 AM
I truly believe the uneducated shouldn't vote, so you leaving your ballot blank is a blessing.



Ok, My IQ is 154 and I made spelling errors in the post.

Wo cares are you smart enough to figure it out?

I have been a republican my entire life.

It is my party that has failed me not my intellect.

So what is your problem!?

You do not know what a Party Stump speach is?

Well it is a campaign trail speach where the candidate continues to just talk about the same thing speach after speach.

Have you watched the last several speaches McCain has given on the trail?

Libermann has been standing behind him each time.

I simply will not vote for "Mutiny McCain".

Ferd
02-08-2008, 09:48 AM
If the man stood an actual chance of making some positive change for the country I'd vote for him. His name isn't an issue...it's the issues that is the issue. The Republicans are secretive globalist elite who are working on draining the American economy into Mexico, China, and the third world to weaken us and cause us to have to join their New World Order. The Republicans have become masters at using religion to manipulate us and make us loyal little drones that vote for them. The Clintons are also cozy with this crowd. The only one who stands a chance to win who isn't entirely owned by this group is Obama. In their minds had to be one of their own, either a Republican or a Clinton. But they underestimated Barak. He's the only candidate who is a man of the people as Kennedy was. That's why if he does win, 2 to 1 I think there will be attempts on his life.

Don't trust the Republicans. And the Clintons have become so cozy with these globalists odds are they are bought and paid for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3031717.stm


I am confident that Barak Obama will do the following
1. Roll back the Bush tax cuts. This will raise taxes on the poorest Americans by 100% as under GWB they were removed from the tax rolls, the next poorest Americans will see their taxes go up by 33% (they went from a 15% tax to a 10% tax.)

2. The American military will become weaker, we will leave Iraq, Iraq will fall into the hands of people who hate us and those who are our allies in the area will feel abandoned and hate us too.

3. FRANCE will be in charge of our foreign policy

4. we will move towards socalizing 1/5 of the American economy as we will get socalized healthcare.

5. 2 brand new very young ultra liberals will be appointed to the Supreme Court causing
A. Criminals will be harder to convict
B. The supreme court will become an even stronger
"Legislative Body" that will create LAW from the
Bench, that will make it even harder for Small Business to function.
6. We will never over turn Roe.
7. Greater Gun control
8. Limits on Free speech. (see the fairness doctrine)


These things will happen in short order. period.

Neck
02-08-2008, 09:48 AM
I truly believe the uneducated shouldn't vote, so you leaving your ballot blank is a blessing.



Laddie flippin dah!

Aquila
02-08-2008, 09:49 AM
Here's an interesting question.

Would you rather vote for a Pro-Life candidate that would do little about abortion's legality and do little to bring down abortion rates or would you rather vote for a Pro-Choice candidate that would keep abortion legal but impliment proven measures to reduce the national abortion rate?

scotty
02-08-2008, 09:49 AM
No party with a sitting president, having an approval rating below 50% has won the white house.

No woman has ever had a chance and not African American has ever had a chance.

my prediction is that no one can win the white house!

but someone will.


If McCain wins, it will be the deathnell for conservitism as a movement. If Barak or Hillary wins, it will be the spark of rebirth for the republican conservitive movement.

the cost will be a lost generation and a supremecourt that will be unchangable until somewhere arond 2025 or 2030.

If McCain wins, it couldspark the birth of a viable third party. but it will also leave our men and women in the Armed Service hung out to dry and America vulnerable to attack.

It will be an interesting election, very good analogy you posted. Not sure I agree with the last line though. McCain is the one who brought about the surge in Iraq that is working now. Enlighten me to why you feel we would not be defended. Me and you are usually inline so I'm wondering if you have found something I haven't.

Nahum
02-08-2008, 09:50 AM
Laddie flippin dah!

Is that a new flavor of HagenDaas?

Sounds delicious.:stirpot

Ferd
02-08-2008, 09:50 AM
This thread needs a lexicon.

everyone should know when you read the following words

Globalist Ajenda it means Consiracy Theorist/Black Helichopters and all that jazz.

Nahum
02-08-2008, 09:51 AM
This thread needs a lexicon.

everyone should know when you read the following words

Globalist Ajenda it means Consiracy Theorist/Black Helichopters and all that jazz.

Oh.


Well.



That is helpful.






Thanks Ferd.

Ferd
02-08-2008, 09:51 AM
Here's an interesting question.

Would you rather vote for a Pro-Life candidate that would do little about abortion's legality and do little to bring down abortion rates or would you rather vote for a Pro-Choice candidate that would keep abortion legal but impliment proven measures to reduce the national abortion rate?

that is a false option.

a Pro Choice candidate will appoint pro choice justices that will prevent any legislation to limit abortion.

Ferd
02-08-2008, 09:53 AM
It will be an interesting election, very good analogy you posted. Not sure I agree with the last line though. McCain is the one who brought about the surge in Iraq that is working now. Enlighten me to why you feel we would not be defended. Me and you are usually inline so I'm wondering if you have found something I haven't.

sorry scotty typing too fast. McCain will support the Armed forces, the dems will leave them hung out to dry. mixing my apples and oranges.

scotty
02-08-2008, 10:03 AM
Here's an interesting question.

Would you rather vote for a Pro-Life candidate that would do little about abortion's legality and do little to bring down abortion rates or would you rather vote for a Pro-Choice candidate that would keep abortion legal but impliment proven measures to reduce the national abortion rate?

Problem here is that niether one of those scenerios is even close to being a reality.

Ferd
02-08-2008, 10:17 AM
Problem here is that niether one of those scenerios is even close to being a reality.

I am afraid much of what our friend says isnt close to reality.

augustianian
02-08-2008, 10:54 AM
Can you be more specific? What mess did Liberalism leave us in?

Stagflation, high taxes, high unemployment, losing the cold war, Iranian hostage crises and an overall negativity in this country.

That kind of stuff.

I am talking about Jimmy Carter...with every other president after his successor (Ronald Reagan) wreaping the benefits of conservatism.

So now.....

Here comes Billary...who plans to socialize medicine (1/7th of our economy) and a host of other "investment" programs that she herself said we couldn't afford.

That's why I beleive that Americans are about to get an object lesson, once again, on the perils of economic and social liberalism.

Hold on tight,
a

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:06 AM
I am confident that Barak Obama will do the following
1. Roll back the Bush tax cuts. This will raise taxes on the poorest Americans by 100% as under GWB they were removed from the tax rolls, the next poorest Americans will see their taxes go up by 33% (they went from a 15% tax to a 10% tax.)

Obama doesn’t favor rolling back ALL of the Bush tax cuts. Only those tax cuts for the top 2% that don’t need them and didn’t ask for them.

2. The American military will become weaker, we will leave Iraq, Iraq will fall into the hands of people who hate us and those who are our allies in the area will feel abandoned and hate us too.

Obama favors handing responsibility of Iraq to the Iraqi people by beginning a staged pullout. He will then use those forces to stabilize Afghanistan by reinforcing our efforts there (we’re loosing ground in Afghanistan and few are talking about it). He will also kick efforts to find Bin Laden into overdrive. His proposal will also allow more time between deployments so as to not place too much stress on those serving in the military and their families.

3. FRANCE will be in charge of our foreign policy

Groundless.

4. we will move towards socalizing 1/5 of the American economy as we will get socalized healthcare.

We will move towards offering a national “health insurance” option, generating competition with the private insurers to bring down costs. He will also streamline health records keeping and negotiate prescription drug prices for the entire industry.

5. 2 brand new very young ultra liberals will be appointed to the Supreme Court causing
A. Criminals will be harder to convict
B. The supreme court will become an even stronger
"Legislative Body" that will create LAW from the
Bench, that will make it even harder for Small Business to function.

Most small businesses are being smashed and bought out by corporations who have lobbied for laws allowing them to do so. Pro-Corporate judges are the bain of small business. Small businesses actually get more support from Democrats than Republicans.

The Supreme Court will become no stronger than it is now. The only difference is that the Supreme Court will more often decide on the side of the people not the corporations.

6. We will never over turn Roe.
They will never overturn Roe. It’s merely a wedge issue to keep you voting Republican. If they overturn Roe you’ll starting thinking about other things like the economy and health care. They know that our convictions are so strong many of us will vote for a man who says he’s prolife even if he plans on selling our grandparents to China to assemble toys painted with lead based paints, letting all our jobs move to Mexico, and deregulating the banking industry with a scheme that will render millions of home owners homeless.

7. Greater Gun control

People don’t need an M16 to hunt deer.

8. Limits on Free speech. (see the fairness doctrine)

All the fairness doctrine establishes is that controversial political issues be discussed in a fair and balanced manner using PUBLIC airwaves. For example, I’ve been sitting here all morning listening to AM talk radio. I’ve heard nearly four hours of a rightwing nutcase rant about things, half of which are distortions bordering on the comedic. Not one reputable liberal policy advisor or representative has been called on and given the floor to present their position. Instead this single man, paid well by the corporate media outlet, has ranted and ranted and ranted and ranted nothing but rightwing stuff…and then he defines the liberal position FOR ME. When a caller calls in to express a different view the host limits his time, berates him, side steps the issue and changes the subject. If the caller pushes through the effort to silence or spin what he has to say…the host hangs up on him or “accidentally” looses the caller. Next will be another right wing nut who asks for only three hours a day to brainwash me…but I’ve already heard four hours of this other guy. On the conservative “fair and balanced” news network they have a paid liberal on staff who only presents liberal talking points so the conservative can shoot them down and rant a bit so he sounds like he’s conquered the liberal position. Real dialogue doesn’t exist…it’s a combative format that is designed to be manipulative of the listener. The difference between “commentary” and actual “news facts” is completely absent. I think that’s junk dude. I believe in the right to free speech…but don’t abuse it. With free speech comes the responsibility to present things fairly and truthfully. I’d like to see the talk show circuit forced to be fair. Evidently, they don’t want you to hear the other side.

These things will happen in short order. period.

We’ll have to see.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:07 AM
that is a false option.

a Pro Choice candidate will appoint pro choice justices that will prevent any legislation to limit abortion.

Actually it is an option. The abortion rate dropped to a 30 year low (nearly 14%) under President Bill Clinton. Why? President Clinton did more to relieve middle and working class Americans, thereby leaving more people able to support having a baby. Clinton also pushed through more contraceptive coverage and the number of unplanned crisis pregnancies dropped. Both of these factors brought the abortion rate lower than it had been in 30 years.

I read on here how the abortion rates are lower in Western European countries than countries that have outright banned abortion. Again they focus on relieving families and providing contraceptives. These policies work. The question is, does one want abortion banned without regard for the abortion rates or does one want to actually reduce the number of abortions?

When compared, more babies were aborted under the Reagan/Bush I Administrations than the Clinton Administration. I know it’s counterintuitive but it’s true.

Would you rather live in a country where abortion was very rare but legal, or a country where abortion was restricted by law but the abortion rate was quite high?

Ferd
02-08-2008, 11:11 AM
THE FAIRNESS DOCTRINE IS AN ATTACK ON THE FIRST AMENDMENT!

If liberals want on the radio SAY SOMETHING THAT WILL GET AN AUDIENCE

Dont go around legislating that conservitive have to say what you want them to say.

Fairness doctrine is the ONLY thing that will get me to march on Washington.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:21 AM
THE FAIRNESS DOCTRINE IS AN ATTACK ON THE FIRST AMENDMENT!

If liberals want on the radio SAY SOMETHING THAT WILL GET AN AUDIENCE

Dont go around legislating that conservitive have to say what you want them to say.

Fairness doctrine is the ONLY thing that will get me to march on Washington.

Why don't you want the population to hear the other side of various issues? A Conservative can say whatever they like. All that's asked is that they present equal time to the opposition so that the American people see both sides of all issues.

scotty
02-08-2008, 11:21 AM
Obama doesn’t favor rolling back ALL of the Bush tax cuts. Only those tax cuts for the top 2% that don’t need them and didn’t ask for them.



Obama favors handing responsibility of Iraq to the Iraqi people by beginning a staged pullout. He will then use those forces to stabilize Afghanistan by reinforcing our efforts there (we’re loosing ground in Afghanistan and few are talking about it). He will also kick efforts to find Bin Laden into overdrive. His proposal will also allow more time between deployments so as to not place too much stress on those serving in the military and their families.



Groundless.



We will move towards offering a national “health insurance” option, generating competition with the private insurers to bring down costs. He will also streamline health records keeping and negotiate prescription drug prices for the entire industry.



Most small businesses are being smashed and bought out by corporations who have lobbied for laws allowing them to do so. Pro-Corporate judges are the bain of small business. Small businesses actually get more support from Democrats than Republicans.

The Supreme Court will become no stronger than it is now. The only difference is that the Supreme Court will more often decide on the side of the people not the corporations.


They will never overturn Roe. It’s merely a wedge issue to keep you voting Republican. If they overturn Roe you’ll starting thinking about other things like the economy and health care. They know that our convictions are so strong many of us will vote for a man who says he’s prolife even if he plans on selling our grandparents to China to assemble toys painted with lead based paints, letting all our jobs move to Mexico, and deregulating the banking industry with a scheme that will render millions of home owners homeless.



People don’t need an M16 to hunt deer.



All the fairness doctrine establishes is that controversial political issues be discussed in a fair and balanced manner using PUBLIC airwaves. For example, I’ve been sitting here all morning listening to AM talk radio. I’ve heard nearly four hours of a rightwing nutcase rant about things, half of which are distortions bordering on the comedic. Not one reputable liberal policy advisor or representative has been called on and given the floor to present their position. Instead this single man, paid well by the corporate media outlet, has ranted and ranted and ranted and ranted nothing but rightwing stuff…and then he defines the liberal position FOR ME. When a caller calls in to express a different view the host limits his time, berates him, side steps the issue and changes the subject. If the caller pushes through the effort to silence or spin what he has to say…the host hangs up on him or “accidentally” looses the caller. Next will be another right wing nut who asks for only three hours a day to brainwash me…but I’ve already heard four hours of this other guy. On the conservative “fair and balanced” news network they have a paid liberal on staff who only presents liberal talking points so the conservative can shoot them down and rant a bit so he sounds like he’s conquered the liberal position. Real dialogue doesn’t exist…it’s a combative format that is designed to be manipulative of the listener. The difference between “commentary” and actual “news facts” is completely absent. I think that’s junk dude. I believe in the right to free speech…but don’t abuse it. With free speech comes the responsibility to present things fairly and truthfully. I’d like to see the talk show circuit forced to be fair. Evidently, they don’t want you to hear the other side.



We’ll have to see.

Spoken like a true die-hard liberal, I'll give you that much. So this just comes down to what we want as president. Part of this post is speculation which makes it unbelievable, part of it is opinion, part of it is debatable and the rest is true. Thing is, I don't want any of it, thus the typical conservative vs liberal debate. So we will have to agree to disagree.

scotty
02-08-2008, 11:22 AM
Why don't you want the population to hear the other side of various issues?

We didn't chose to turn off the radio, America did.

What does that tell you.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:25 AM
We didn't chose to turn off the radio, America did.

What does that tell you.

Americans are smart enough to hear both sides of the issues and vote for what is best. Many conservatives don't want people hearing anything that challenges the bark of corporate bulldogs. The truth is...yall don't think Americans are smart enough to think for themselves without conservatives defining EVERYTHING. Sometimes the Liberals are wrong, plain and simple. But allow the people to turn them off...don't silence the opposition. The fear is that on some issues the Liberals may be right and the American people, if they heard their position, would agree. This isn't Communist Russia.

scotty
02-08-2008, 11:28 AM
All the fairness doctrine establishes is that controversial political issues be discussed in a fair and balanced manner using PUBLIC airwaves. For example, I’ve been sitting here all morning listening to AM talk radio. I’ve heard nearly four hours of a rightwing nutcase rant about things, half of which are distortions bordering on the comedic. Not one reputable liberal policy advisor or representative has been called on and given the floor to present their position. Instead this single man, paid well by the corporate media outlet, has ranted and ranted and ranted and ranted nothing but rightwing stuff…and then he defines the liberal position FOR ME. When a caller calls in to express a different view the host limits his time, berates him, side steps the issue and changes the subject. If the caller pushes through the effort to silence or spin what he has to say…the host hangs up on him or “accidentally” looses the caller. Next will be another right wing nut who asks for only three hours a day to brainwash me…but I’ve already heard four hours of this other guy. On the conservative “fair and balanced” news network they have a paid liberal on staff who only presents liberal talking points so the conservative can shoot them down and rant a bit so he sounds like he’s conquered the liberal position. Real dialogue doesn’t exist…it’s a combative format that is designed to be manipulative of the listener. The difference between “commentary” and actual “news facts” is completely absent. I think that’s junk dude. I believe in the right to free speech…but don’t abuse it. With free speech comes the responsibility to present things fairly and truthfully. I’d like to see the talk show circuit forced to be fair. Evidently, they don’t want you to hear the other side.



We’ll have to see.

WOW, we have been saying this about CNN, MSNBC,CBS,ABC,NBC, for years, all these outlets have been doing this on your side forever, now FOX steps up and does the same thing for the other side and you all start crying foul. Typical.

scotty
02-08-2008, 11:30 AM
Americans are smart enough to hear both sides of the issues and vote for what is best. Many conservatives don't want people hearing anything that challenges the bark of corporate bulldogs. The truth is...yall don't think Americans are smart enough to think for themselves without conservatives defining EVERYTHING. Sometimes the Liberals are wrong, plain and simple. But allow the people to turn them off...don't silence the opposition. The fear is that on some issues the Liberals may be right and the American people, if they heard their position, would agree. This isn't Communist Russia.


Are you sure your arguing for the right side?????
Everything you are saying is the EXACT same thing we have been saying about ya'll for years. hmmmmmm.... can't have our tax money so now you take our platform....Typical

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:34 AM
No...just equal opportunity to present a different view to INFORM the voter so that they are aware of both sides of an issue. I want them to hear BOTH sides. Not just one side bro. What do you have to fear from people hearing both sides?

Rev
02-08-2008, 11:36 AM
I think we should start a giant writein campaign for OGATT

I think he could do as good as any of the others!

scotty
02-08-2008, 11:39 AM
No...just equal opportunity to present a different view to INFORM the voter so that they are aware of both sides of an issue. I want them to hear BOTH sides. Not just one side bro. What do you have to fear from people hearing both sides?


We dont have anything to fear, thats my point. Your side has 3 times the media outlets as we do. I don't understand what your wanting. Radio is the only exception and that is because nobody listens to you on radio...don't ask me why, ask your radio personalities..

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:42 AM
WOW, we have been saying this about CNN, MSNBC,CBS,ABC,NBC, for years, all these outlets have been doing this on your side forever, now FOX steps up and does the same thing for the other side and you all start crying foul. Typical.

You're right. However, with a modern fairness doctrine we can prevent abuses from both sides. We have to stop the war and get information.

DividedThigh
02-08-2008, 11:42 AM
We dont have anything to fear, thats my point. Your side has 3 times the media outlets as we do. I don't understand what your wanting. Radio is the only exception and that is because nobody listens to you on radio...don't ask me why, ask your radio personalities..

hey listen dude you are right, aquila and the libs need to deal with the fact that air america aint happenin, cause they cant make any money, that isnt my fault, i dont care what they say i dont listen anyway, lol,dt:tvhappy

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:44 AM
We dont have anything to fear, thats my point. Your side has 3 times the media outlets as we do. I don't understand what your wanting. Radio is the only exception and that is because nobody listens to you on radio...don't ask me why, ask your radio personalities..

The issue is that those who listen to the liberal outlets only hear the liberal side. Those who listen to the conservative outlets only hear the conservative side. Frankly, everyone is ignorant of the opposition's real positions regardless of what side they're on. lol

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:45 AM
Should news and information be dependent upon making money? If so what prevents the money powers from having them tell us what they want us to hear, regardless of what side an outlet is on?

DividedThigh
02-08-2008, 11:47 AM
Should news and information be dependent upon making money? If so what prevents the money powers from having them tell us what they want us to hear, regardless of what side an outlet is on?

hey buddy, you listen to what you want and i will listen to what i want, i am merely stating a fact, life on the airwaves is a result of advertising, that is just the way it is, and if no one listens to that garbage, then they dont stay on and your boy al gore loses his money, lol, just kidding, but true, dt:happydance

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:49 AM
hey buddy, you listen to what you want and i will listen to what i want, i am merely stating a fact, life on the airwaves is a result of advertising, that is just the way it is, and if no one listens to that garbage, then they dont stay on and your boy al gore loses his money, lol, just kidding, but true, dt:happydance

LOL

I guess I'm just tired of listening to the rightwing...they don't tell the whole story.

BrotherEastman
02-08-2008, 11:50 AM
I predict that no Apostolic will be happy with the outcome of the next election.

DividedThigh
02-08-2008, 11:52 AM
LOL

I guess I'm just tired of listening to the rightwing...they don't tell the whole story.

i agree that all of them give there slant, but i have heard air america a few times on the road in the small areas they have coverage, and that is worse, disqusting and full of vitriole, they all do there own thing, that is life bro, lol, dt

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:52 AM
I predict that no Apostolic will be happy with the outcome of the next election.

You're right. I tend to lean center left and I don't see anyone I'm entirely comfortable with either. So you conservative bros aren't the only one's hurting this time around.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:53 AM
I'm listening to Limbaugh rant right now. lol This guy's a complete wacko. lol

scotty
02-08-2008, 11:55 AM
The issue is that those who listen to the liberal outlets only hear the liberal side. Those who listen to the conservative outlets only hear the conservative side. Frankly, everyone is ignorant of the opposition's real positions regardless of what side they're on. lol

But I thought you said Americans were smart enough to figure it out on their own, they don't need Republicans help, after all you figured it all out according to you , right?

Thats the one place we agree, people are smart enough to find out the truth if they try. That is the real problem, we have gotten too lazy as a country, we want everything handed to us on a silver platter, including information.
(by the way, that mentality came from the Democrats social programs and pushing for the government to tell us how we should live and take care of us if we don't want try.)

DividedThigh
02-08-2008, 11:56 AM
I'm listening to Limbaugh rant right now. lol This guy's a complete wacko. lol

hey bro rush is pretty silly sometimes but not anywhere near as mean and ugly as the morons on air america, and at least he doestn believe gwb blew up the levies during katrina and bombed the twin towers himself, goodness, dt

DividedThigh
02-08-2008, 11:57 AM
But I thought you said Americans were smart enough to figure it out on their own, they don't need Republicans help, after all you figured it all out according to you , right?

Thats the one place we agree, people are smart enough to find out the truth if they try. That is the real problem, we have gotten too lazy as a country, we want everything handed to us on a silver platter, including information.
(by the way, that mentality came from the Democrats social programs and pushing for the government to tell us how we should live and take care of us if we don't want try.)

go scotty go, did i tell you, you rock, lol,dt

Aquila
02-08-2008, 11:59 AM
It’s funny. He uses psychological tactic of emotional association to condition his listeners. For example all day today he’s referred to John Kerry as “the haughty John Kerry.” Dude, not just once for a good laugh…but in every sentence where he mentions John Kerry. Then he refers to actual news media as “drive by media.” Dude, the main news sources have reporters dodging bullets to get the story…Rush only does internet searches on stories and talks all day. What’s interesting is how he’s constantly using this tactic of mental association to denigrate those who disagree. There’s far more to it but it’s really an interesting study in psychological conditioning.

Weary Pilgrim
02-08-2008, 12:01 PM
You're right. I tend to lean center left and I don't see anyone I'm entirely comfortable with either. So you conservative bros aren't the only one's hurting this time around.



Are you pro abortion?

scotty
02-08-2008, 12:04 PM
hey bro rush is pretty silly sometimes but not anywhere near as mean and ugly as the morons on air america, and at least he doestn believe gwb blew up the levies during katrina and bombed the twin towers himself, goodness, dt

Amen, Rush can be fanaticly robust at times in his delivery, but if you research what he says you will find he has a very high truth ratio. whether you like him or not.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 12:16 PM
Scotty dude…listen to yourself….

But I thought you said Americans were smart enough to figure it out on their own, they don't need Republicans help, after all you figured it all out according to you , right?

Thats the one place we agree, people are smart enough to find out the truth if they try. That is the real problem, we have gotten too lazy as a country, we want everything handed to us on a silver platter, including information.

You know what’s most interesting…it’s conservatives that choose to get their news from strictly conservative sources. Most liberals know both sides quite well. ;)

(by the way, that mentality came from the Democrats social programs and pushing for the government to tell us how we should live and take care of us if we don't want try.)


I agree that is a factor. Not every idea the Democrats had was a good idea. That’s why even Democrats realized the need for sweeping welfare reform.

scotty
02-08-2008, 12:38 PM
Scotty dude…listen to yourself….

huh???

You know what’s most interesting…it’s conservatives that choose to get their news from strictly conservative sources. Most liberals know both sides quite well. ;)

Again, not true, (this is getting old) I myself take an hour or two a day scanning CNN and MSNBC and log in to news and info outlets on the internet from around the world.

I agree that is a factor. Not every idea the Democrats had was a good idea. That’s why even Democrats realized the need for sweeping welfare reform.

To dems. sweeping welfare reform means they want to reform the welfare system into something bigger and more costly...(ie;universal healthcare, example-bankrupt Romney world) Being from Arkansas I had Bill and Hill for 8 years, took us another 8 years and a supreme court ordered tax hike to pay for the mess.

StillStanding
02-08-2008, 12:52 PM
I predict that Obama will defeat Hillery, and defeat McCain for the presidency!

If Hillery defeats Obama, McCain will win!

DividedThigh
02-08-2008, 12:55 PM
I predict that Obama will defeat Hillery, and defeat McCain for the presidency!

If Hillery defeats Obama, McCain will win!

i will hold my nose and vote for mccain, but i beleive he will defeat either one of the dems, please god, lol, dt:tvhappy

BrotherEastman
02-08-2008, 01:00 PM
I predict that the next president isn't going to be a godly one.

scotty
02-08-2008, 01:07 PM
I predict that Obama will defeat Hillery, and defeat McCain for the presidency!

If Hillery defeats Obama, McCain will win!

What about these super delegates? You know they have been talking about the fact that even if Obama wins with delegates that the super delegates can still go the other way because most of them have already pledged to Hillary. They are saying it could bring about a big back lash within the party. Of course Obama could enter the race as Dem. Independant. Worked for Lieberman.

scotty
02-08-2008, 01:08 PM
I predict that the next president isn't going to be a godly one.

You base that on the flipping of a two headed quarter? :toofunny:toofunny

Aquila
02-08-2008, 01:21 PM
To dems. sweeping welfare reform means they want to reform the welfare system into something bigger and more costly...(ie;universal healthcare, example-bankrupt Romney world) Being from Arkansas I had Bill and Hill for 8 years, took us another 8 years and a supreme court ordered tax hike to pay for the mess.

Actually under Clinton we saw the most sweeping reforms of the welfare system to date.

Most of you guys are much uninformed regarding universal health care. Our current system is far more expensive than the universal systems. The US citizens pay on average 16% more on health care than any other nation…with worse results. Like our educational system our health care system is far behind most Western nations. Anyone who’s lived in Canada or Europe and moved to the US can attest to that. It’s been proven that while you may pay more taxes for the system…your premiums, deductibles, and co-pays would disappear. When this savings is compared to the taxes you’d pay, you’ll find that you will actually have more in pocket for spending than you do under this current system. The American system Hillary is proposing is essentially modeled after that found in France (France was rated #1 by the World Health Organization). This means that the American system would be a blending of public and private insurance. This will be targeted to relieve business and individuals. Reports from the business world in Canada reveal that Canadian businesses pay less in taxes than American business do with premiums and deductibles in the current system in America. Also America will do what every other Westernized nation does…negotiate the cost of prescription medications. This has given Canadian businesses an edge over American businesses in the market place. At present the numbers of the uninsured are rising in America with no indication that they will decrease. More and more businesses are finding that they cannot afford to insure their employees and so more and more cost is being shifted to the employee just to keep them covered with something. Millions of Americans are left behind and thousands die every year because they don’t have the coverage they need. Remember, while you may freak when you see how much more in taxes you might pay…you’ll be amazed at how much you save now that you don’t have inflated premiums, deductibles, and co-pays.

Also this will prevent abuse that is currently driving up YOUR health insurance premiums. ALL Americans will pay into the health care system. Right now I could choose to go without health insurance to save a buck. Then if I get sick or hurt I can go to the emergency room. Then I can refuse to pay the bill. Guess what…the hospital is going to charge you more to pay for me while I contribute NOTHING! At least in a universal system I’d pay something into the system to relieve over all costs. Not to mention I can have better preventative treatment reducing the high cost of treating an advanced illness. If all Americans receive care…shouldn’t all Americans pay into the system? Why should you pay higher premiums because I choose not to pay into the system and am unable to pay the bill?

Bro…it’s not the 1890’s anymore. You can’t give your doctor a gallon of milk for making a house call or providing services you need. Like it or not this is a new global economy and a national health care system is the way to go.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 01:22 PM
I predict that the next president isn't going to be a godly one.

Have we ever had a "godly" President?

BrotherEastman
02-08-2008, 01:28 PM
Have we ever had a "godly" President?
Yes, but he's been long dead.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 01:34 PM
Yes, but he's been long dead.

Lincoln?

Weary Pilgrim
02-08-2008, 01:42 PM
Are you pro abortion?

Bump for Aquila

Ferd
02-08-2008, 01:45 PM
Bump for Aquila

Diamond Jim, Aquila is for liberalism and is willing to trade Roe v. Wade for socialized healthcare.

rationalizing that democrats will work to reduce the number of abortions and thus satifiying his conscience.

Ferd
02-08-2008, 01:46 PM
I predict that the next president isn't going to be a godly one.

then none of the top three will win.

Ferd
02-08-2008, 01:51 PM
Why don't you want the population to hear the other side of various issues? A Conservative can say whatever they like. All that's asked is that they present equal time to the opposition so that the American people see both sides of all issues.

Aquila, America is America because of freedom of speech. It is our greatest single freedom. the government NEVER has a right to tell someone what to say or how to say it.

If the governemnt was attmpting to stiffel liberal political speech, I would be just as upset about it and I would fight tooth and nail against it.

and that is the difference. YOU look at what kind of speech it is and make your decision.


Your view is as American as Nikita Kruschev.

This isnt about equal time, it is about the government ording a certain kind of speech.

What are you afraid of the market place?

Neck
02-08-2008, 02:05 PM
Is that a new flavor of HagenDaas?

Sounds delicious.:stirpot

Yep, taste like humble pie...

BrotherEastman
02-08-2008, 02:30 PM
Lincoln?
I was thinking more like Washington who actually had a daily prayer life.

AJBC
02-08-2008, 02:54 PM
My Brother has an article on it and read to me some of the highlights. his background was carefully investigated. He joined a church in chicago that in reality is NOT christian to begin with. finally, he joined as a cover.


Yep. I read that too....it gave alot of insight on the man....kind of scary...

Aquila
02-08-2008, 02:58 PM
Bump for Aquila

No. However, I understand that abortion's legality is merely cosmetic. The real issue to address is abortion rate. This is done by advocating for contraceptives, thereby reducing unplanned pregnancies. Also I advocate for subsidized programs for single mothers such as WIC, day care assistance, extending S-Chip to cover mothers and children, increasing adoption tax credits and making them permanant, and strengthening laws against the abuse of pregnant women. After having studied what nations are most successful in reducing abortion rates I was absolutely amazed that the nations with the lowest abortion rates on earth were always pro-choice nations with progressive measures in contraceptives, child care, and universal health care. Some of the highest abortion rates are found in nations where abortion is banned, but there isn’t any relief for families or availability of contraceptives.

I support the “Reducing the Need for Abortion and Supporting Parents Act”, submitted by Tim Ryan (D-OH) and Rosa DeLauro (D-CT), both pro-life Democrats, which has gained support with both pro-life and pro-choice members of the Democratic Party. The Republicans stand against this Act simply because they are widely supported by Democrats. Here the titles of the Act:

• Sex Education (Title I): Grants for pregnancy prevention education will give preference to various programs, including those that encourage teens to delay sexual activity and provide information about contraception, but will be available only to applicants who agree to provide age-appropriate, factually and medically accurate and complete, and scientifically-based information. Grant recipients must be able to match 25% of the federal funds. This section is largely drawn from S. 2508, Senator Menendez’s “Teen Pregnancy Prevention, Responsibility and Opportunity Act.”

• After-School Programs (Title II): This section would reauthorize appropriations to various after-school programs, including the 21st Century Community Learning Centers, the Carol M. White Physical Education Programs, and Federal TRIO programs, and GEARUP. This section is drawn from the Menendez bill, S. 2508.

• Teen Pregnancy Prevention Incentive Grants (Title III): For fiscal year 2007, any state which submits a plan to decrease teen pregnancy and teen births that includes both young men and young women, involves parents or other caretakers, and makes a particular effort to reach communities or populations experiencing above-average teen pregnancy rates may receive a grant. For each of the fiscal years 2008-2011, the grants will be available only to “high-achieving states,” who achieve above average progress in reducing teen pregnancy rates and also submit a plan to decrease teen pregnancy, involve parents or other caretakers, focus on young men as well as young women, and pay special attention to communities or populations experiencing higher teen pregnancy rates. No matching funds are required to receive these grants. The Secretary of HHS will also establish a new national goal for teen pregnancy prevention and periodically update Congress on the related progress. This section was inspired by S. 657 of the 108th Congress, Senator Bayh and Lieberman’s “Strengthening Families Act of 2003,” and H.R. 3555, Representative Harman and Shays’ “Responsible Funding to Prevent Teen Pregnancy Act.”

• Demonstration Grants to Encourage Creative Approaches to Teen Pregnancy Prevention (Title IV): This grant program is designed to support creative approaches to reducing teen pregnancy. Grant recipients must provide a 25% match to the federal funds. They are also required to submit to the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) reports of their success, and the Secretary of HHS, in turn, must submit a report on the success of the grant programs to Congress. This section is also drawn from the Menendez bill, S. 2508.

• National Campaign to Enlist Parents in Preventing Teen Pregnancy (Title V): A significant grant will be available to establish a national center for the parents of teens. The center will work to support parents by equipping them with information and resources to promote and strengthen communication with their children about sex,

The Reducing Need for Abortion and Supporting Parents Act 2

values, and healthy relationships; to develop and implement print, broadcast, internet and other new media campaigns to promote positive information and messages for parents about how they can help address teen pregnancy; and to provide challenge grants to states to promote parent education and involvement. This section is similar to language establishing a National Teen Pregnancy Prevention Resource Center that Senator Lincoln had included as an amendment in the Senate Finance Committee's welfare reform legislation in March 2005.

• Restoration of Medicaid Entitlement to Coverage of Family Planning Services (Title VI): The Deficit Reduction Act, now passed into law, puts countless low-income women’s access to family planning at risk through the creation of “benchmark” plans. Benchmark plans allow states to avoid federal requirements for required services in the Medicaid program, one of which is family planning. This provision would ensure that low-income women on Medicaid will continue to have access to contraception by restoring family planning to the status of mandatory for benchmark plans under the Medicaid program. This section can also be found in the “Unintended Pregnancy Reduction Act of 2006,” introduced as S. 2916 by Senator Clinton and H.R. 5795 by Representatives Lowey and DeLauro.

• Expanded Coverage of Family Planning for Low-Income Women (Title VII): Federal law requires state Medicaid programs to cover pregnancy-related care for women with an income up to 133% of the federal poverty line, and gives states the flexibility to set the income ceiling even higher. Over 40 states currently cover pregnancy-related services for women with income above the required level. This provision would amend the Medicaid statute to ensure that states extend coverage for family planning services and supplies to women who would be entitled to Medicaid funded prenatal, labor, delivery and postpartum care. This section can also be found in Clinton and Lowey/DeLauro’s S. 2916/H.R. 5795.

• Increasing Support for the Nation’s Title X Family Planning Program (Title X): This section would authorize increased funding for Title X of the Public Health Service Act, the only federal program dedicated solely to providing contraceptive and related reproductive health care services to low-income women. This section is drawn from the “Prevention First Act,” introduced as S. 20 by Senators Clinton and Reid and H.R. 1709 by Representatives Slaughter, DeGette, Johnson, and Greenwood.

• Contraception Information for New Moms (Title XVII): The bill authorizes new grants which would require providing accurate and complete information about contraception at nurse home visits to teenage and first-time mothers.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 02:59 PM
Support
The second half of the bill is designed to provide support to women preparing for childbirth and new parents through:

• Disclosure of Information for Abortion Services (Title VIII): This section ensures that primary care clinics that receive federal financial assistance and provide abortion services obtain informed consent from a woman seeking an abortion. At the woman’s request, information regarding alternatives to abortion, including adoption and information about support for carrying her pregnancy to term, must also be provided. Information about family planning must also be offered. Clinics must ensure that their services are nonjudgmental and that all information provided is “medically and factually accurate,” defined as consistent with leading professional organizations such as the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, published in peer-reviewed journals, or verified by the weight of research conducted in compliance with accepted scientific methods.

• Expanding Medicaid and S-CHIP Coverage (Title IX): This section provides states the option to expand or add coverage of pregnant women under Medicaid and S-CHIP, increases the S-CHIP definition of a low-income child from 200% to 250% of federal poverty

The Reducing Need for Abortion and Supporting Parents Act 3 guidelines, and provides an outreach program to encourage those eligible for services to enroll. Components of this section are drawn from S.740, Senator Bingaman’s “Start Healthy, Stay Healthy Act of 2005.”

• Pregnancy as a Pre-Existing Condition (Title XI): This section would close the gap in coverage of pregnant women who have individual coverage with private insurers. The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, which provides that pregnancy cannot be considered a pre-existing condition, applies only to group health plans – not to individual coverage.

• Increasing Women’s Information About Their Pregnancies (Title XII): This section makes grants for the purchase of ultrasound equipment available to community health centers, for the purpose of offering pregnant women an ultrasound – not requiring it. Consistent with S. 609, the “Prenatally Diagnosed Condition Awareness Act,” co-sponsored by Senator Kennedy, this section also requires that women who have received a positive diagnosis for a prenatally-diagnosed condition, such as Down Syndrome, be provided with medically accurate and up-to-date information regarding the reliability of the test and about the condition itself.

• Preventing Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault (Title XIII): This section creates a new violence screening and treatment program for pregnant women and new mothers, which is drawn largely from H.R. 4367, Representative Capps’ “Domestic Violence Screening, Treatment, and Prevention Act.” This section also supports grants to states to carry out a public awareness campaign regarding domestic violence against pregnant women.

• Supporting Pregnant and Parenting Students (Title XIV): This section provides grants to institutions of higher education to provide support services to assist both pregnant students who have decided to carry their pregnancies to term and parenting students in continuing their studies and graduating. It also increases support for the Child Care Access Means Parents In School (CAMPIS) program.

• Group Homes for Pregnant and Parenting Women (Title XV): This section requires that federally-funded group homes for pregnant and parenting women provide (upon request) adoption and parenting skills counseling.

• Expanding Adoption Assistance (Title XVI): This section increases the adoption tax credit from $10,000 to $15,000 for all children and makes the credit refundable.

• Supporting New Parents (Title XVII): This section increases support for the Women, Infants, and Children program (WIC), makes it easier for new parents to receive nutritional support through food stamps, increases funding for the Child Care and Development Block Grant (CCDBG) program, and provides free home visits by registered nurses to teenage or first-time mothers (to include contraceptive counseling). It also provides for a public awareness campaign regarding resources available to support both women preparing for childbirth and new parents.

These measures are “targeted” to reduce the abortion rate in America greatly without the need of overturning Roe and/or banning abortion, as has been done in Western Europe. These are ALL Democratic initiatives. The Republicans only have promised bans and restrictions, which have been fruitless thus far. I’m telling you, the Democrats can get it done. If we can reduce the abortion rate in America significantly the next logical step is to move toward common sense restrictions. But let’s be realistic. It’s highly unlikely that we will get abortion banned in the United State, but if we do it will only be after reducing the abortion rate significantly. And then there will be a mounted resistance to make abortion legal again. The fight will NEVER end. Therefore instead of spinning our wheels trying to accomplish something that is unlikely and believing Republican promises they’ve not kept…why not support the Democrats and do what we can to save lives now? Instead of fighting a battle that will never end, why not unite with the other side of the aisle and work together to reduce the abortion rate?

scotty
02-08-2008, 03:05 PM
All that was just what it looked like, a whole lot of talk with very little substance....matter of fact it looks alot like something I saw on a liberal website...you wouldn't be a fellow copy paster would you..?

Why can't we have the right as citizens to determine ourselves whether or not we want Universal Health Care? How about we put that on the ballot in November. Wouldn't that be the fair thing to do? Majority rules. Why should the government have free reign to tax me for things I don't want.?

Aquila
02-08-2008, 06:17 PM
All that was just what it looked like, a whole lot of talk with very little substance....matter of fact it looks alot like something I saw on a liberal website...you wouldn't be a fellow copy paster would you..?

Yes, but it was from a .pdf document I had downloaded to study. You say these measures have very little substance...BUT in Europe they have similar measures in countries like the Netherlands, and they have the lowest abortion rate on earth even though abortion is legal in their countries.

Abortion isn't going away in America. It's here to stay. Even if we voted in Republican after Republican and stacked the entire court with conservative justices they will decide on the side of choice. That's just the way it is. No democratic nation has outlawed abortion after making it legal. This is a loosing battle. And even IF a miracle happened and we banned abortion today...tomorrow we would face a tidal wave of challenges and legal battles until they win choice back. The war will never end. Meanwhile why we're fighting over how abortion is defined on paper, the abortion rate doesn't change....or worse...it climbs. If the Netherlands and other Western European countries can implement measures such as these and lower their abortion rates to the lowest in the world...why can't we? I'll tell you why...those who say they're pro-life really don't care about life...they care about winning a political battle. That's all. For them it's just politics. That's why when someone says their pro-life...but they don't believe in covering these families with health insurance, or they don't believe in measures that will reduce the abortion rate, I'm not impressed. I realize to them it's all about what it says on paper. They're not willing to go beyond the debate to do what needs to be done. Newsflash...these measures would be needed even IF abortion were banned because the abortion rate would NOT decrease on it's own. For example TODAY the abortion rate in America is LOWER than it was when abortion was ILLEGAL. Yes...today there is less abortion than in the late 60's early 70's...and abortion is legal. We have to graduate and grow beyond the debate and come together to reduce the abortion rates even more.

Why can't we have the right as citizens to determine ourselves whether or not we want Universal Health Care? How about we put that on the ballot in November. Wouldn't that be the fair thing to do? Majority rules. Why should the government have free reign to tax me for things I don't want.?

Why don't more of us just choose not to pay for health insurance and jack up your premiums a little more? We'd save a buck and you'd pay more. In a universal health care system everyone would pay something into the system. Why do you want to pay more in premiums for someone who's paying nothing into the system instead of everyone paying less in taxes with negotiated perscription costs in universal coverage? Why do you think it's fair that millions of Americans choose not to have health insurance and so we who do have to pay extra in inflated premiums to pay their bills for them? Hey...you're paying more right now. If everyone paid into a system with negotiated prices it wouldn't cost as much as what we're paying now.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 06:27 PM
Yep. I read that too....it gave alot of insight on the man....kind of scary...

Dude...those are urban legends. lol They were thoroughly debunked by Snopes and FactCheck.

Aquila
02-08-2008, 06:55 PM
Interesting video:

http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=45

The Republicans don't want you to know that Pro-Life Democrats are building a consensus with Pro-Choice Democrats aimed at how to actually reduce abortions in America. The Republicans want to just talk about banning abortion and nothing else. Those who really care about saving lives here and now have realized that there's more than one way to skin a cat. This Pro-Life initiaive is widely supported by even Pro-Choice Democrats and is the foundation behind the current “Reducing the Need for Abortion and Supporting Parents Act”.

The Republicans don't want you to know anything about this. How..."pro-life"... of them.

ManOfWord
02-08-2008, 09:28 PM
I predict that we'll all have to get used to saying "President Obama!"

Not that I like that, but I'm afraid that will happen. Not prophesyin' just predictin'. :D

Aquila
02-08-2008, 10:02 PM
I think it's just too close to really tell but I do have the feeling that there will be a Democrat in the White House.

Rev
02-08-2008, 10:18 PM
so far this is what I predict:


Hillary / Barak for the Democrats

McCain / Huckabee (or Gullioni)



who do you predict will win and who are you voting for ?????


I still predict the Dems are going to win in november


I predict that there will be an election

scotty
02-09-2008, 05:38 AM
Abortion isn't going away in America. It's here to stay.

This one I will give you. But government can not solve it either nor make it better. We have become too immoral of a nation. More so than overseas.

Why don't more of us just choose not to pay for health insurance and jack up your premiums a little more? We'd save a buck and you'd pay more. In a universal health care system everyone would pay something into the system. Why do you want to pay more in premiums for someone who's paying nothing into the system instead of everyone paying less in taxes with negotiated perscription costs in universal coverage? Why do you think it's fair that millions of Americans choose not to have health insurance and so we who do have to pay extra in inflated premiums to pay their bills for them? Hey...you're paying more right now. If everyone paid into a system with negotiated prices it wouldn't cost as much as what we're paying now.

All of this is exactly what I don't want. Negotiated prices means negotiated services. Ever heard of HMO?. No, I don't want the government telling me when and where and how much health care I can or can not get. Look at the IRS, the education dept., the welfare dept. Social Security. Why would you think I want them running my health care? And premiums went up initionally due to greedy lawsuits back about 10 yrs ago, only now are we looking at the long term results. Don't start another Democratic "gimme program" just because you don't want to make your trial lawyer lobby mad. Regulation can work with out taxing everyone to death.

Thats the governments job, protect us from the evils of the world, be it other countries or the evils here. But its not to dictate our lives for us. It was not formed so we could pay it to provide for us as it sees fit. It was formed because that was the life the founders fought to get away from. It was formed so we could live with the freedom to provide for ourselves as we see fit.

You can list all the statistics you want, but if it puts us back to where we were pre-America then what have you gained? This is what it comes down to and what you can't argue with. You talk about the Republicans being bad by wanting globalization while in the same sentence supporting Democrats because they want to change our policies to be like other countries in the world ?

If you start to notice a foul smell like your nose up someones rearend it is because you just circled around and come up behind yourself.


(The Reality of it All: The dems will win the white house, and might even get away with all this universal stuff. They will also further our position in the UN towards creating a NWO. While I argue against it, I accept it also simply because it is all a sign of the times)

Pressing-On
02-09-2008, 08:03 AM
All that was just what it looked like, a whole lot of talk with very little substance....matter of fact it looks alot like something I saw on a liberal website...you wouldn't be a fellow copy paster would you..?

Why can't we have the right as citizens to determine ourselves whether or not we want Universal Health Care? How about we put that on the ballot in November. Wouldn't that be the fair thing to do? Majority rules. Why should the government have free reign to tax me for things I don't want.?

What I've read on the Healthcare issue is that many Americans are healthy and that is the reason they are not covered. They know that if something catastrophic happens it will go beyond their coverage so they opt out.

I know of companies that have stopped covering the "emergency room" issues. Mainly, because when you are covered you will take advantage of that even if you don't really need it. It was a waste of money. They do cover for broken bones, etc.

Neck
02-09-2008, 08:06 AM
I'm listening to Limbaugh rant right now. lol This guy's a complete wacko. lol


You know who is wacko? Paul Begala! Now that is a wacko!

Neck
02-09-2008, 08:08 AM
Are you pro abortion?

There is no more prolife or prochoice in this country. It is a matter of your perosnal actions.

Politicians use that to sway voters.

It simply will never be overturned it is a locked issue...

scotty
02-09-2008, 08:46 AM
What I've read on the Healthcare issue is that many Americans are healthy and that is the reason they are not covered. They know that if something catastrophic happens it will go beyond their coverage so they opt out.

I know of companies that have stopped covering the "emergency room" issues. Mainly, because when you are covered you will take advantage of that even if you don't really need it. It was a waste of money. They do cover for broken bones, etc.

Very true, I also see this being influenced by our moral issues. The younger generation don't need it thus don't get it. The divorce rate is higher than ever, it is not until one is truly settled down into their lives and families do they even consider protecting that environment.

Pressing-On
02-09-2008, 09:05 AM
Very true, I also see this being influenced by our moral issues. The younger generation don't need it thus don't get it. The divorce rate is higher than ever, it is not until one is truly settled down into their lives and families do they even consider protecting that environment.
Right. Always the moral issue at stake.

Pressing-On
02-09-2008, 09:13 AM
On my prediction: I will reserve my judgment after I see how McCain fares on interaction with the two other players. If he leans on being a smart aleck, which he does tend to come across that way in some instances, he isn't going to win this one.

He needs to stick to issues and not take personal "snickery" (is that a word?) pot shots. I'm not sure he will be able to do that, personally.

I'm listening to Ann Coulter's 2008 not-at-CPAC-CPAC speech. She said the only thing she disagrees with on Ron Paul is his foreign policy or else she would be in favor of voting for him. Read that FERD! lol

http://www.townhall.com/blog/g/b9769a28-f1fa-4ee9-af17-c9955af1a2e5

She is also saying, which is true, the VP position on this is very important to the ticket as we will be thinking of 2012. Very true.

On the question and answer session a woman - very strongly - told Ann that she and Rush were going to make us lose the White House. She also pointed out that Ann stated that having a Democrat in the White House on foreign policy is a scary thing. She wanted to know how Ann felt about that and being against McCain. Good questions!

WOW, and now likening Huckabee to a "snake oil salesman" like Jimmy Swaggart. WOW - bold words.

She said she would have voted for Giuliani - as would I have. She says he is not at liberal as most think.

She is also for a third party! I agree!

scotty
02-09-2008, 09:26 AM
"snickery" (is that a word?) !

Yes , it refers to an aboundance of the candy bar Snickers. as such

My refigerater is looking snickery.


:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

:thebunny

Pressing-On
02-09-2008, 09:30 AM
Yes , it refers to an aboundance of the candy bar Snickers. as such

My refigerater is looking snickery.


:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

:thebunny

Sugar is evil!!! :muwahaha

ChristopherHall
02-09-2008, 10:08 AM
All of this is exactly what I don't want. Negotiated prices means negotiated services. Ever heard of HMO?. No, I don't want the government telling me when and where and how much health care I can or can not get. Look at the IRS, the education dept., the welfare dept. Social Security. Why would you think I want them running my health care? And premiums went up initionally due to greedy lawsuits back about 10 yrs ago, only now are we looking at the long term results. Don't start another Democratic "gimme program" just because you don't want to make your trial lawyer lobby mad. Regulation can work with out taxing everyone to death.

Bro...my family goes to Canada every year. We have some good friends there and I've personally seen their system at work. You could say I saw Sicko before Michael Moore ever produced it. LOL You guys are using confusing terms. Leaders in the US aren't trying to create a "national health care system", they're trying to create a "national health insurance program." It's just subsidized insurance applied to prices negotiated between the government and the entire industry. It's not like the Republican HMO scheme. It's just insurance. You can go to see the doctor whenever and wherever you want to.

Aquil is right, right now our premiums are so high, and rising, because of a combination of three things...rising numbers of uninsured people seeking services, rising costs for prescription medication, and junk lawsuits. In France and Canada they cap lawsuits and most cases are not handled in court like in the US...they are handled by health care review boards and rewards are issued by those representatives who are medical professionals.

You see, Europe and Canada has already made costs more affordable, covered everyone, and reformed their malpractice systems to keep doctors from frivolous lawsuits.

American is SOOOOOO far behind the Western World in this area it's amazing. Other nations have highly successful public education systems, other nations have highly successful tax compliance, other nations have highly successful health care systems. America is already a second rate nation, we just can't bring ourselves to admit it yet. We need to catch up with the rest of the world and restore our greatness as a nation.

I assure you, in our current health care system your premiums will become so high even YOU will find yourself and your family uninsured. And bros, there's no reason for it. It doesn't have to be that way.

Thats the governments job, protect us from the evils of the world, be it other countries or the evils here. But its not to dictate our lives for us. It was not formed so we could pay it to provide for us as it sees fit. It was formed because that was the life the founders fought to get away from. It was formed so we could live with the freedom to provide for ourselves as we see fit.

Don't you realize that a healthy population is in our nation and our societies best interest? Right now America has one of the highest infant mortality rates, more obesity, diabetes, cancer, you name it than any other nation. Why? Because we live like slobs and most of us try to cut costs by not seeing a doctor as regularly as we should. In other nations people visit their doctor regularly and head off health problems faster than we do, they head them off when it costs less to treat them too. It's in our national interest to provide health care for all. We're not talking about buying everyone a hydrogen car...we're talking about health care. Many doctors just want to practice medicine, they don't wan the insanity the insurance companies are causing. Even the American Medical Association is advocating for a universal health insurance system. And doctors are increasingly advocating for universal health insurance. One reason is that they often work for hospitals and treat people who can't pay the bill. Sometimes a doctor will render services and the insurance company will decide not to cover the cost of the treatment. This isn't fair to doctors, they should be paid for their services not have to pass the cost down by increasing the cost of services for the rest of us.

You can list all the statistics you want, but if it puts us back to where we were pre-America then what have you gained? This is what it comes down to and what you can't argue with. You talk about the Republicans being bad by wanting globalization while in the same sentence supporting Democrats because they want to change our policies to be like other countries in the world ?

Don't you think that if other countries are doing better than we are with something we'd be wise to look into how they do it and adjust it to do here? For example the who idea behind capping malpractice suits and reforming laws to reduce frivolous lawsuits...they've been doing that in France for decades!!! The whole idea is working in France. And the conservatives are right on this part of the issue. Should we refuse to reform malpractice laws just because the French, Canadians, and Brits have successfully done so...or should we study them and do what it takes to do the same here???

If you start to notice a foul smell like your nose up someones rearend it is because you just circled around and come up behind yourself.

See my comments above. Aquil has some good points. If you like, under the Canadian flavor we have a thread on this subject where we are talking with ACTUAL CANADIANS who have universal health care. These are Apostolic brothers who will tell you the truth about their system compared to ours.

Trust me...we need to catch up and the only thing preventing us from doing so is...our fears.

ChristopherHall
02-09-2008, 10:14 AM
I predict a Democratic victory for the White House. I also predict Democratic gains in Congress. I predict that we will get universal health insurance. In one generation most Christians will be very supportive of it. Much like the issue of slavery, many Christians disagreed with setting the slaves free in the US. They argued from the Bible that God allows it and that setting them free was a godless liberal act. Well...today most Christians proudly support the fact that our nation made that liberal advance in it's culture. It will be the same with universal health insurance.

Pressing-On
02-09-2008, 10:20 AM
I predict a Democratic victory for the White House. I also predict Democratic gains in Congress. I predict that we will get universal health insurance. In one generation most Christians will be very supportive of it. Much like the issue of slavery, many Christians disagreed with setting the slaves free in the US. They argued from the Bible that God allows it and that setting them free was a godless liberal act. Well...today most Christians proudly support the fact that our nation made that liberal advance in it's culture. It will be the same with universal health insurance.

It appears, thus far, the conservative movement - Coulter, Hannity and Limbaugh - are doing just that - putting a Democrat in the White House.

ChristopherHall
02-09-2008, 10:22 AM
Here's the real deal guys. The Republicans take just as much of your money and give it away as Democrats. The question is what you'd rather have our tax money spent on. Policies with a domestic focus; or internationalist policies? Dems focus on the domestic front, Reps focus on the international front. Either way someone's going to use our money on someone and something. I personally prefer a more domestic focus. Others think we should be all over planet earth in various capacities.

Did you know the Bush Administration is subsidizing an Iraqi universal health care system out of the Iraqi Ministry of Health? Yep, in 2004, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson took nearly a billion dollars to lay the ground work for the universal health care system in Iraq. Under Saddam various groups were denied coverage. President Bush advancing a health agenda in Iraq that makes sure that all Iraqis have health care coverage regardless of ethnicity, geographic origin, gender, or religious affiliation.

The war in Iraq is costing us around 8 or 9 billion dollars a MONTH. We are continuing to assist in funding their national health insurance program out of the Iraqi Ministry of Health. Meanwhile our seniors in the United States are choosing between buying food or the prescription drugs they need. Meanwhile 25,000 families have to declare bunkruptcy back home, and loose all they've ever worked for, because they can't afford their medical bills. Meanwhile 18,000 Americans die from treatable conditions merely because they don't have health insurance or have been denied coverage by their private health insurance company. Meanwhile 50 MILLION Americans are without health insurance and as our premium rise that number grows.

But the health insurance industry is recording record profits and their CEOs walk away with billions in stock options.

Bros...the system here isn't working. Let's come together as a nation and do what needs to be done.

scotty
02-09-2008, 10:49 AM
Bro...my family goes to Canada every year. We have some good friends there and I've personally seen their system at work. You could say I saw Sicko before Michael Moore ever produced it. LOL You guys are using confusing terms. Leaders in the US aren't trying to create a "national health care system", they're trying to create a "national health insurance program." It's just subsidized insurance applied to prices negotiated between the government and the entire industry. It's not like the Republican HMO scheme. It's just insurance. You can go to see the doctor whenever and wherever you want to.

Aquil is right, right now our premiums are so high, and rising, because of a combination of three things...rising numbers of uninsured people seeking services, rising costs for prescription medication, and junk lawsuits. In France and Canada they cap lawsuits and most cases are not handled in court like in the US...they are handled by health care review boards and rewards are issued by those representatives who are medical professionals.

You see, Europe and Canada has already made costs more affordable, covered everyone, and reformed their malpractice systems to keep doctors from frivolous lawsuits.

American is SOOOOOO far behind the Western World in this area it's amazing. Other nations have highly successful public education systems, other nations have highly successful tax compliance, other nations have highly successful health care systems. America is already a second rate nation, we just can't bring ourselves to admit it yet. We need to catch up with the rest of the world and restore our greatness as a nation.

I assure you, in our current health care system your premiums will become so high even YOU will find yourself and your family uninsured. And bros, there's no reason for it. It doesn't have to be that way.


Don't you realize that a healthy population is in our nation and our societies best interest? Right now America has one of the highest infant mortality rates, more obesity, diabetes, cancer, you name it than any other nation. Why? Because we live like slobs and most of us try to cut costs by not seeing a doctor as regularly as we should. In other nations people visit their doctor regularly and head off health problems faster than we do, they head them off when it costs less to treat them too. It's in our national interest to provide health care for all. We're not talking about buying everyone a hydrogen car...we're talking about health care. Many doctors just want to practice medicine, they don't wan the insanity the insurance companies are causing. Even the American Medical Association is advocating for a universal health insurance system. And doctors are increasingly advocating for universal health insurance. One reason is that they often work for hospitals and treat people who can't pay the bill. Sometimes a doctor will render services and the insurance company will decide not to cover the cost of the treatment. This isn't fair to doctors, they should be paid for their services not have to pass the cost down by increasing the cost of services for the rest of us.



Don't you think that if other countries are doing better than we are with something we'd be wise to look into how they do it and adjust it to do here? For example the who idea behind capping malpractice suits and reforming laws to reduce frivolous lawsuits...they've been doing that in France for decades!!! The whole idea is working in France. And the conservatives are right on this part of the issue. Should we refuse to reform malpractice laws just because the French, Canadians, and Brits have successfully done so...or should we study them and do what it takes to do the same here???



See my comments above. Aquil has some good points. If you like, under the Canadian flavor we have a thread on this subject where we are talking with ACTUAL CANADIANS who have universal health care. These are Apostolic brothers who will tell you the truth about their system compared to ours.

Trust me...we need to catch up and the only thing preventing us from doing so is...our fears.

Brother me and you have already had this conversation on the other thread. My response is the same. I don't want it.

Put it on the ballot, if the majority votes it in then fine, otherwise don't force it on me.

You still did not address how you figure the government can be trusted with this when all the other government run programs and departments are inept.

And last but not least, for as many as you can show that approve of it I can inturn post testimony of the nightmares others have went through.

Ever wonder why low income towns/cities have run down education systems, poor streets, run down city services. Because low income cities, towns, etc. pay less taxes by percentage than higher income towns/cities. The town I live in is comprised mostly of upper middle to upper income. The town that borders us is middle to lower income. The difference in the services, parks, schools, streets, etc is like night and day. This will be no different. If you are upper income,thus putting more into the system, you will get excellent health care. But if you are lower income, your health care will be the equal to that of a bad HMO. Lower income people in these countries you adore have waited in line for months just to be looked at by a doctor. Waiting list for surgeries, while the people suffer till their number is called.

I don't want it brother, period. If people want a government to take care of them then move to another country, otherwise put it on the ballot and let the majority decide.

ChristopherHall
02-09-2008, 11:03 AM
Brother me and you have already had this conversation on the other thread. My response is the same. I don't want it.

Put it on the ballot, if the majority votes it in then fine, otherwise don't force it on me.

Bro...do you have health insurance? If so, what do you pay in premiums?

You still did not address how you figure the government can be trusted with this when all the other government run programs and departments are inept.

Medicaid, Medicare, the Military, VA hospitals and a number of other government departments work very well. When dealing with these the issue is primarily funding, not being inept.

And last but not least, for as many as you can show that approve of it I can inturn post testimony of the nightmares others have went through.

Brother, my father in law had some trouble breathing and weakness two weeks after a heart surgery. We called the ambulance and he was taken to Kettering Hospital in Kettering Ohio. He sat in the ER waiting room for 10 hours. When he was eventually moved the ICU they gave him some blood thinner and began to examine him. During the process he went into shock and they lost him. The discovered that he bled to death from internal bleeding. They allowed him to sit for 10 hours, they could have saved his life. Does this horror story reflect the ENTIRE American health care system? No. It's not that bad if you have insurance. But my point is that there are horror stories in every health care system. The conservatives that oppose universal health care exploit these tragedies and try to pawn the stories off as though they represent the entire universal health care system of another nation. Sadly, some of us here in the US aren't wise enough to look at it objectively and apply critical thinking to the conclusions these conservatives are trying to make us have. We're mental midgets who believe nearly anything we hear. But I've been to other countries and see universal health care with MY OWN eyes. Dude, they're lying to us.

Ever wonder why low income towns/cities have run down education systems, poor streets, run down city services. Because low income cities, towns, etc. pay less taxes by percentage than higher income towns/cities. The town I live in is comprised mostly of upper middle to upper income. The town that borders us is middle to lower income. The difference in the services, parks, schools, streets, etc is like night and day. This will be no different. If you are upper income,thus putting more into the system, you will get excellent health care. But if you are lower income, your health care will be the equal to that of a bad HMO. Lower income people in these countries you adore have waited in line for months just to be looked at by a doctor. Waiting list for surgeries, while the people suffer till their number is called.

Dude, you don't know what you're talking about. The average wait time in a Canadian ER is like 20 to 30 minutes for non-emergencies. It's much like here in the US. I've been there and seen it myself.

I don't want it brother, period. If people want a government to take care of them then move to another country, otherwise put it on the ballot and let the majority decide.


Dude, you just don't get it. Oh well...America will one day catch up when fear is put behind us. Let me invite you to another thread on this forum so that we can discuss this with some Canadian brothers and sisters...

Canadian and American Healthcare ?
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=379623#post379623

StMark
02-09-2008, 11:27 AM
Healthcare is a serious issue in America.I certainly share all the concerns that all the conservatives here in regards to moral issues but i wished they would also admit that something has to be done about healthcare in America.I know families that are dishing out $1000 a month for health insurance. It's out of control!

I had a lot of reservations about a Natl. plan but after talking to Ron in Canada I'm a little more open to giving it a try. Canada has probably had time to work out the bugs too.

whenever social security and other Democratic reform was implimented in past generations, it was always met with hostility.People fear the unknown.
But now everyone enjoys workemen's comp, social sec. benefits and even unemployment when needed

scotty
02-09-2008, 12:10 PM
To say Medicare and VA and all that works but is just not funded enough!!!!! that is not knowing what your talking about brother. The system you are relying on is corrupt and broken and you just want to add another program. This is America , not Canada or France. Greed don't exist there in the magnitude it exist here. The thing is when we open the door to this, where will it stop?!?! Go ahead and tell us what the tax rate is in these other countries. Lets just work for free and the government can determine what our pay is spent on for us. This is stupid. Move. If you want that type of system then move there. I wonder why you are so afraid of putting it on the ballot? Maybe because you know it wouldn't pass?

Sorry fella's, I just can't buy into a socialist government. Don't get me wrong I know it's going to come anyway. Global warming is coming. There are alot of things coming, the bible says so. This is just one of them. But with this comes the whole of the Democratic agenda. UN, NWO, everything will be universal including an ID system.
Does it not bother any of you that neither of the Dem. candidates have (without changing the subject) answered whether or not they will continue supporting Israel? I don't expect them to. The bible says "all nations will rise up against Israel" not some, all. That includes America. Its the big picture I don't like.

Hoovie
02-09-2008, 04:58 PM
...and on a positive note Huck smashed McCain - 3 to 1 in Kansas!

ChristopherHall
02-09-2008, 10:06 PM
Go Huckabee! He's the only Republican I like right now. lol

I'll never understand the irrational hatred American citizens have for their own government. We've really drifted from loving our country and being a civil community to being rugged individualists who just really don't care if the neighbors can't afford health care or the food they need. It soothes our minds to argue for "charity". Why? Because "charity" is optional and brings no demands with it. We can give when we like and choose not to when we don't. And we feel like we did "something". Sadly, all too often...that "something" amounts to very little.

The nation of Israel collected three different tithes as a nation. The first was Levitical and provided for the priesthood. The second was a temple tithe and provided for the needs of the temple. The third was collected every three years to be distributed to the poor, the needy, widows, orphans, and strangers (think aliens and migrant workers, that's another debate). These same protected social groups had a right to glean from the crops in the land of Israel. It was their right to sustenance. The God's law for the nation insured that none would be left behind. God promised the nation that if they abide by his law there would be no poor among them. God also called for a year of Jubilee in which all land had to be transfered back to the line of it's original owners. This was to prevent the aggregation of wealth being consolidated into the hands of a very few. The land was to never leave the line of it's original owner, the land and all that was no it belonged to the Lord, and it was to be shared by the nation. The corners and edges of the fields belonged to the poor. The poor tithe belonged to the poor. Aside from these things, they were free to barter as necessary. These were the foundational elements of the economy God himself laid out for his people. While we no longer live in an agricultural society that can institute these distributist principles literally...we do well to apply these principles in our national budget, social vision, and civil discourse. Here is where I believe the conservatives have gone wrong. They have abandoned God's principles of social harmony and and unity. For the Israelite, they were as a people called to national compassion as policy. These policies prevailed in various aspects throughout Israel's history, however God brought condemnation and promised judgment upon the nation that ignored these principles. In the time of Christ we know that these social principles existed. In the Gospels we see Jesus and his disciples gleaning corn from another's crop. Another had planted, tended, and harvested...yet Christ and his disciples who had forsaken earthly wealth legally gleaned food from another's crop at least on this occasion. There wasn't a stigma attached to gleaning, it was simply part of their culture, their world view. Sadly we curse the poor, the widow, the orphan, and the stranger for asking for social assistance. This is a grave sin, revealing our self centeredness in the United States.

Those are my deepest convictions on the matter. Charity can never provide what social compassion can. I will admit, I was one of those kids who grew up in the ghetto. My mother and I were abandoned by my father when I was almost two. My mother had no education and no marketable skills. She tried to work but couldn't stay afloat working for minimum wage. She also couldn't afford health insurance for us. So she broke down and applied for welfare. We were given a monthly allotment of food stamps and money for taxable groceries. We had subsidized housing that we lived in. It was a hellhole. However I remember my mother thanking God with tears in her eyes when I'd catch her praying. We had Medicaid for our health insurance. My mother sent me to public schools where I got involved with the arts, literature, and JROTC. She was passionate about me "being involved in something". Always pushing me to do better. I wouldn't be where I am today had there been no social safety net for me and my mom. I've heard stories I'd rather not mention of how my mom would get money for food before she broke down and got on welfare. God only knows the hell and pain it saved us from. And my mother was a welfare mom...and I was one of those welfare kids. But I'm thankful. I'm going to take the time right here and right now to honestly say thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for allowing us to glean from your lively hood. Thank you for faithfully paying your taxes. Thank you. Thank you for given me a chance. There are thousands of others like me. Sure, by just looking at them you might think you're dollars are being wasted. But let me promise you...our lives would have been a whole lot worse if we had no where to turn. Today I have a family. I'm working and have a good job. I've served in the military as a combat medical specialist. I've also been to technical college. And most importantly , God has used me in ministry to touch others. Thank you.

God bless.

deacon blues
11-06-2008, 08:35 AM
Bro Mark and Steinway were prophetically on the mark! Way to go men of God!