Why shouldn't I vote for Obama??

[ChicagoPastor]

Before you all "jump" me, hear me out.
I know that as Christians, we all usually vote Republican because of our values. We HAVE a Republican in office and homosexual marriage/rights is moving right along...abortions haven't stopped. So obviously putting a Republican in the office doesn't change those issues.

Why shouldn't I vote for Barak? He's a fresh voice, people are comparing him to JFK...I realisticly do not believe Huck's going to do anything...I don't know if I want McCain as President, nor do I think he'll win....

So we have two choices Hillary or Barak.........why shouldn't I vote for Barak????

[Sister Alvear]

My opinion is it is best not to vote...but of course few think like I do...fewer yet have lived in countries such as I have lived in...I saw enough Muslims in the Philippines and there are lots of them in Brazil. Why would you vote as a christian for a man that does not believe the Bible to be God´s word?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Someone sent me this:

http://www2.beaufortgazette.com/blogs/post/17216

[Sister Alvear]

and I have nothing against Muslims...I would go anyday to be a missionary among them if God called but their values are very different than ours.

[Praxeas]

Before you all "jump" me, hear me out.
I know that as Christians, we all usually vote Republican because of our values. We HAVE a Republican in office and homosexual marriage/rights is moving right along...abortions haven't stopped. So obviously putting a Republican in the office doesn't change those issues.

Why shouldn't I vote for Barak? He's a fresh voice, people are comparing him to JFK...I realisticly do not believe Huck's going to do anything...I don't know if I want McCain as President, nor do I think he'll win....

So we have two choices Hillary or Barak.........why shouldn't I vote for Barak????
How does having a fresh voice make him a good choice? How does comparing him to JFK make him a good candidate? And as for McCain not winning....are you suggesting not voting for him simply because you don't think he can win?

On the abortion/homosexual issue...I think a lot don't vote for Democrats because they are pro abortion etc...simply because to vote for them is passive approval of such things. I don't think anyone really believes voting Republican is going to mean a reversal of Roe vs Wade automatically....the president can't do anything about that. The best they can try to do is get in a conservative judge in the supreme court....the problem there is we got too many democrats in congress and the senate that fight every judicial nomination including choices for attorney general.

It seems now that many republicans are pro abortion the issue is about the war, military and fiscal conservativism....that last one seems to be a moot issue with the current President

[Sister Alvear]

Someone sent me this:

http://www2.beaufortgazette.com/blogs/post/17216

That is downright scary if it is true...May God help us.

[Praxeas]

I don't believe Obama is a Muslim....What difference would it make since there's already been a Senator elected that is Muslim...why would he need to hide it? And why would he be hiding it since all these years before he even decided to go into politics.

On the other hand I don't doubt there might be some racism there given the church he goes to

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

That is downright scary if it is true...May God help us.

I think some of the links from that page have been removed. I don't doubt that the man would be more sympathetic to Islamic people than Hillary or McCain. I am not happy with voting with any of the three. When Huckabee is eliminated, there is not much of a choice. If I vote I will vote for McCain very unwillingly.

[StMark]

CP,

his church in Chicago pledges allegience to Africa.

this same church performs same sex cermemonies for gays.

trinity united church of christ - check out the beliefs of this denominations and tell me they are christian

his mother,in a radio interview slipped and told that Obama was baptized(or whatever their initiation is) as a muslim when he was a child. he went to catholic school for one year and uses that as a cover.

[ChicagoPastor]

My opinion is it is best not to vote...but of course few think like I do...fewer yet have lived in countries such as I have lived in...I saw enough Muslims in the Philippines and there are lots of them in Brazil. Why would you vote as a christian for a man that does not believe the Bible to be God´s word?

Sis, he's not muslim!!!! This is a false rumor that has been spread about him.

[Praxeas]

I think some of the links from that page have been removed. I don't doubt that the man would be more sympathetic to Islamic people than Hillary or McCain. I am not happy with voting with any of the three. When Huckabee is eliminated, there is not much of a choice. If I vote I will vote for McCain very unwillingly.

Some of the quotes were clearly taken out of context. The others mean nothing. His father and step father were Muslims...big deal.

[ChristopherHall]

My opinion is it is best not to vote...but of course few think like I do...fewer yet have lived in countries such as I have lived in...I saw enough Muslims in the Philippines and there are lots of them in Brazil. Why would you vote as a christian for a man that does not believe the Bible to be God´s word?

Sis Alvear, with all do respect, Obama is a Christian and has attended a Christian church for years. Here is a picture of Obama being sworn in by Vice President Dick Cheney...on the Obama family Bible,

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/blogs/vox/media/obama.jpg

As Christians we are bound to hold to truth, not rumor, not prejudice (Not that you're prejudiced, but many hear his name and assume he's not a Christian). I'm just saying that it is of the utmost importance that we be honest about people.

Now, with regards to the election I see it this way. Obama and Hillary are Liberals and they are honest about being liberals. McCain has never been regarded by the Republican party as a true conservative and has often bragged about his moderate maverick politics. Now he's pretending to be a solid Conservative, and interestingly most conservatives are not supporting him. So the choice is between a person who is a liberal and honest about it or a conservative who is lying about being a conservative. I'm considering that it might be best to vote for the honest liberal, at least you know where they REALLY stand.

Just some of my thoughts.

[Praxeas]

CP,

his church in Chicago pledges allegience to Africa.

this same church performs same sex cermemonies for gays.

trinity united church of christ - check out the beliefs of this denominations and tell me they are christian

his mother,in a radio interview slipped and told that Obama was baptized(or whatever their initiation is) as a muslim when he was a child. he went to catholic school for one year and uses that as a cover.
They are in doctrine like a lot of other protestant churches except for the afro-centric theme...where did you see that they perform same sex ceremonies?

Muslims baptize? And if they do, so what if he was baptized as a child. He never hides the fact that his father and step father were muslim and that he went to a muslim school for a short time?

[StMark]

Sis Alvear, with all do respect, Obama is a Christian and has attended a Christian church for years. Here is a picture of Obama being sworn in by Vice President Dick Cheney...on the Obama family Bible,

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/blogs/vox/media/obama.jpg

As Christians we are bound to hold to truth, not rumor, not prejudice (Not that you're prejudiced, but many hear his name and assume he's not a Christian). I'm just saying that it is of the utmost importance that we be honest about people.

Now, with regards to the election I see it this way. Obama and Hillary are Liberals and they are honest about being liberals. McCain has never been regarded by the Republican party as a true conservative and has often bragged about his moderate maverick politics. Now he's pretending to be a solid Conservative, and interestingly most conservatives are not supporting him. So the choice is between a person who is a liberal and honest about it or a conservative who is lying about being a conservative. I'm considering that it might be best to vote for the honest liberal, at least you know where they REALLY stand.

Just some of my thoughts.


That is nothing but a farce and a front!!!!!

He did that to gain future votes is all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Some of the quotes were clearly taken out of context. The others mean nothing. His father and step father were Muslims...big deal.

Yes, it could be a deal. If your father and step father were Muslims, it could be a big deal on how you view the world. Also, the quotes were in the book out of context or not out of context. I think we should study his books, his record and how the man thinks before jumping in to vote for him. What has he done for America? Making an inspiring speech and rallying people to his cause does not make a good leader or a good president. It makes him a good speaker and a good campaigner. That's all.

[ChicagoPastor]

Sis Alvear, with all do respect, Obama is a Christian and has attended a Christian church for years. Here is a picture of Obama being sworn in by Vice President Dick Cheney...on the Obama family Bible,

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/blogs/vox/media/obama.jpg

As Christians we are bound to hold to truth, not rumor, not prejudice (Not that you're prejudiced, but many hear his name and assume he's not a Christian). I'm just saying that it is of the utmost importance that we be honest about people.

Now, with regards to the election I see it this way. Obama and Hillary are Liberals and they are honest about being liberals. McCain has never been regarded by the Republican party as a true conservative and has often bragged about his moderate maverick politics. Now he's pretending to be a solid Conservative, and interestingly most conservatives are not supporting him. So the choice is between a person who is a liberal and honest about it or a conservative who is lying about being a conservative. I'm considering that it might be best to vote for the honest liberal, at least you know where they REALLY stand.

Just some of my thoughts.
good point :)
so which 'honest liberal' do we vote for?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Some may vote for Hillary over Obama using this reason. I was told "better the devil you know than the devil you don't know" LOL

[ChristopherHall]

CP,

his church in Chicago pledges allegience to Africa.

this same church performs same sex cermemonies for gays.

trinity united church of christ - check out the beliefs of this denominations and tell me they are christian

his mother,in a radio interview slipped and told that Obama was baptized(or whatever their initiation is) as a muslim when he was a child. he went to catholic school for one year and uses that as a cover.

TRUTH SQUAD

Scopes and FactCheck have already refuted the idea that Obama is a Muslim.

Here's where this logic fails. Islam sees homosexuality as a grave sin. Saudi Arabia currently executes any exposed homosexuals along with many other Muslim countries. A true Muslim wouldn't attend a Christian church...not to mention a Liberal Christian church. Obama is liberal in his opinions and political views, but he isn't a Muslim. And if he is really a Muslim, he'd have stronger values than any liberal on the ticket. So frankly I'm not sure what the point is.

The point is that this is a nasty and slanderous rumor at best...a lie at worst. We as Christians should stick to the truth. Obama is simply a Liberal Christian.

If indeed you heard Obama's own mother say these things in a radio interview, please tell me what radio network, what interviewer, and provide some evidence for time and place. I'd be willing to look into it and consider your claim.

[StMark]

CP our friendship depends on you NOT voting for him and I am a "D" ya know but I aint voting for no terrorist!!!!!!!! and don't you either. If you do don't ever contact me again


PS tune Christopher out- he's being an advocate of the enemy

[chosenbyone]

I don't believe Obama is a Muslim....What difference would it make since there's already been a Senator elected that is Muslim...why would he need to hide it? And why would he be hiding it since all these years before he even decided to go into politics.

On the other hand I don't doubt there might be some racism there given the church he goes to


Obama has never been a Muslim and all of the false information about him would leave one to think that perhaps they originated from fear and prejudice.

He has been a member of a very liberal African American Christian church, which celebrated their culture through various programs and performing arts. When I visited their website, I had never seen so many outreach ministries associated with one church. It became evident that they cared a lot for their community and those less fortunate in our society.

Here is the link to Obama's church: http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

[Michael The Disciple]

His Church does same sex marriages? Show us the proof.

[StMark]

His Church does same sex marriages? Show us the proof.

check out the beliefs of the united church of christ

[StMark]

CP,

Look what happend to their choir director last month


Was murdered gay choir director a “saint”?



http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/was-murdered-gay-choir-director-a-saint/

[MissBrattified]

good point :)
so which 'honest liberal' do we vote for?

To be quite frank, I consider Hillary to be the more "honest liberal" of the two. She openly espouses liberal views and policies, even though overall she is a dishonest person. At least we KNOW what she stands for, most of the time--we know what to look out for.

Obama is WAY too vague and mysterious. Yeah, he can "preach", but who cares? I know lots of great orators who would make awful presidents. I don't trust him.

[ChristopherHall]

good point :)
so which 'honest liberal' do we vote for?

LOL

No politician is completely honest. LOL

However, both Obama and Hillary are liberal and honest about it. McCain is pretending to be a conservative. Therefore I'd trust either Obama or Hillary over McCain. At least with each of them you know what you're going to get. You know what you will disagree with and you know where they stand on issues and policies that may warrant a closer look and serious consideration. With McCain, his obviously trying to trick us into supporting him. I don't trust him one bit. Now Huckabee, he's the only Republican running worth his salt. He's not a fiscal conservative....but he is a social conservative. He's the only Republican I'd consider voting for.

Now, on a side note. What is this "fiscal conservative" garbage? Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II have each left massive deficits. Bush I and Bush II grew the government and national spending far more than any Democrat, even though these Republicans were running deficits! Clinton had to raise taxes to pay for Bush I's deficits before he could initiate his Democratic reforms. In spite of this Clinton balanced the budget and ran a surplus he advised be used to strengthen Social Security. Bush II gave the Surplus away in rebates and gave the most massive tax cuts in history causing the government to nearly begin running in the red immediately. Then 9/11 hit us and we launched into war. Did Bush push war bonds, call on Americans to reach into their pockets to support the war effort as he raised taxes as necessary to pay for the war? No. Now we're running even worse deficits than before, the value of the dollar is tanking, deregulation of the banking industry has allowed predatory lending and the collapse of the housing market, and oil prices are through the roof and the White House isn't even trying to negotiate lower costs. Guys....these aren't fiscal conservatives. The Democrats are far more conservative fiscally than the Republicans. At least Democrats hold to PayGo meaning they only pay for programs as they go, not running deficits. Each party spends the tax payer dollars on their pet projects. Even this current White House is spending our dollars like their's no tomorrow. At least the Democrats will make sure we at least have a health insurance program covering all Americans.

Oh well, those are my thoughts right now. I may change my mind if convinced otherwise, but that's my line of thought right now.

[Fiyahstarter]

Obama is WAY too vague and mysterious. Yeah, he can "preach", but who cares? I know lots of great orators who would make awful presidents. I don't trust him.

(Nods head in agreement)

Run for the hills if Obama gets in!

Ogatt, you got room for me in them there hills?

[ChristopherHall]

CP our friendship depends on you NOT voting for him and I am a "D" ya know but I aint voting for no terrorist!!!!!!!! and don't you either. If you do don't ever contact me again


PS tune Christopher out- he's being an advocate of the enemy

Wow...rings of McCarthyism. lol Look out...everyone who disagrees might...might be...a Communist! AAAAAHHHH.

lol

[Praxeas]

Yes, it could be a deal. If your father and step father were Muslims, it could be a big deal on how you view the world. Also, the quotes were in the book out of context or not out of context. I think we should study his books, his record and how the man thinks before jumping in to vote for him. What has he done for America? Making an inspiring speech and rallying people to his cause does not make a good leader or a good president. It makes him a good speaker and a good campaigner. That's all.
It could, It could, It could. It could NOT too. That's the point. Both men were NOT in his life very long.

Look at the quotes...he quotes part of paragraph then adds.....then another quote from somewhere else. In other words that person left OUT a lot and put two unconnected statements together.

Study his record. I agree. Study his words and books incontext. I agree. No disagreement there. What has anyone really done for America? What did Dubya do for America before he was elected?

[ChristopherHall]

To be quite frank, I consider Hillary to be the more "honest liberal" of the two. She openly espouses liberal views and policies, even though overall she is a dishonest person. At least we KNOW what she stands for, most of the time--we know what to look out for.

Obama is WAY too vague and mysterious. Yeah, he can "preach", but who cares? I know lots of great orators who would make awful presidents. I don't trust him.

Well, at least you're not touting email rumors and slander about the man. LOL

Either way, Obama would be far better than McCain. McCain's a joke and a phony conservative. If you're right sis, Hillary sounds better than either Obama or McCain. However, I think your sense of Obama being a vague is rooted in the fact that Obama is rather new to politcs and he isn't as well known as either Hillary or McCain. I see that as a good thing. With either Hillary or McCain, we'd be electing more of the same. McCain would give us more Bushonomics and failed policies. Hillary would essentially be a resurrection of the 90's. Obama is the only one who will obviously bring a change to American politics.

While I might disagree with Obama on a couple issues, I sense he really believes in what he's trying to do. He's not just after power. That's somewhat inspiring even though I disagree with him on a couple things.

[Praxeas]

CP,

Look what happend to their choir director last month


Was murdered gay choir director a “saint”?



http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/was-murdered-gay-choir-director-a-saint/
Think about this for a second.....if a covert Terrorist Muslim was wanting to make Americans think he was a Christian...would he go there then? He he was wanting to sway all Americans especially christians, would he go to a church that praises Louis Farrakhan?

Say what you want about that church and his brand of Christianity....this should really show the man is NOT a closet Muslim terrorist...

Personally I don't think a Democrat HAD to be a closet Muslim terrorist to put us in danger of islamic extremism growing in America. Muslims never had to go covert in the past to do that. They always used the more liberal branch of nations OPENLY to take over when they were doing a bloodless Jihad.

[MissBrattified]

Either way, Obama would be far better than McCain. McCain's a joke and a phony conservative. If you're right sis, Hillary sounds better than either Obama or McCain. However, I think your sense of Obama being a vague is rooted in the fact that Obama is rather new to politcs and he isn't as well known as either Hillary or McCain. I see that as a good thing. With either Hillary or McCain, we'd be electing more of the same. McCain would give us more Bushonomics and failed policies. Hillary would essentially be a resurrection of the 90's. Obama is the only one who will obviously bring a change to American politics.

I am so disappointed in McCain's success. *sigh* I can't stand the man. Wasn't there an old story about a soldier in the Civil War who wore gray pants and a blue jacket and got shot by both sides? That's McCain. Except he isn't getting shot (much) from either side, and I find that to be very irritating. I really don't understand why so many Republicans have voted for him. :girlytantrum

[ChristopherHall]

CP,

Look what happend to their choir director last month


Was murdered gay choir director a “saint”?



http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/was-murdered-gay-choir-director-a-saint/

I believe that homosexuality is a sin. But I also think it's best to leave the judgment of this man's heart to God. I'll denounce the sin, but refrain from judgment.

We all have had our struggles with sin. We all have had our days when sin has gotten the best of us. I know this much...when I die...though I'm not gay....I won't deserve to be called a "saint" either. It's all by the blood of Christ Jesus. I don't think the man made it. But you know...I'd rather give room for God's mercy than be too condemnatory. Why? That's how I'd like to be judged bro.

And in closing...he's not Obama. Obama is a straight man. LOL

[StMark]

He's only going there as a cover. It's not a real christian church so the muslin strategist wink and look the other way. the Dems put their approval on this type of doctrine too so he's on track.
Politicians will do most anything for votes. he was even saying recently that he prays to "Jesus" please!

[Sister Alvear]

Well, I confess I am very ignorant concerning all these things...however whether he is muslim or not his parents are according to most sources and the little saying is, Blood is thicker than water...

[Sister Alvear]

America has no idea what awaits her...

[chosenbyone]

I am so disappointed in McCain's success. *sigh* I can't stand the man. Wasn't there an old story about a soldier in the Civil War who wore gray pants and a blue jacket and got shot by both sides? That's McCain. Except he isn't getting shot (much) from either side, and I find that to be very irritating. I really don't understand why so many Republicans have voted for him. :girlytantrum

The democrats want McCain as the Republican nominee because he cannot win the Whitehouse against Clinton or Obama. Did you see that Huckabee won the Kansas and LA primaries? This evening I spent time viewing vidoes and reading about Huckabee's record and I have to admit that I found him to be very personal and articulate; however, his record as Governor seemed to overshadow his persona.

Look for Obama to be the next President!

[StMark]

America has no idea what awaits her...


PLease expound on this - details please thanks

[StMark]

Well, I confess I am very ignorant concerning all these things...however whether he is muslim or not his parents are according to most sources and the little saying is, Blood is thicker than water...


WORDS OF WISDOM !!!

[ChristopherHall]

The terrorist cells were in America for years. Yet they didn't attack until 9-11-2001. Why? Why didn't they attack us under President Clinton? I asked a retired military friend of mine this and he gave me this answer, "The terrorists attacked us in 2001... because they could." He then explained how the Bush administration cut funds to several counter terrorist projects, re-arranged the system, and even placed new leadership over the departments. Clinton ran a real tight ship. When Bush's anti-terror decisions prior to 9-11 are compared to President Clinton's...President Clinton was far tougher on terror and had more counter terrorism measures in place.

So in my mind...I wonder...maybe America would be safer with Democrats back in office. The idea that Democrats want to get blown up or don't care if their own families die in a terrorist assult is just stupid. I don't know. I do know the Democrats would have no qualms with using strong domestic measures. Just a thought.

[ChristopherHall]

He's only going there as a cover. It's not a real christian church so the muslin strategist wink and look the other way. the Dems put their approval on this type of doctrine too so he's on track.
Politicians will do most anything for votes. he was even saying recently that he prays to "Jesus" please!

Bro Mark...you're above this kind of thing. To say you disagree with a man's politics is fair. But in all honesty bro...what you're saying about him isn't grounded in fact. It's already been solidly refuted. It was all part of an email rumor. LOL

[Praxeas]

Well, I confess I am very ignorant concerning all these things...however whether he is muslim or not his parents are according to most sources and the little saying is, Blood is thicker than water...
his mother is not muslim

[ChristopherHall]

Well, I confess I am very ignorant concerning all these things...however whether he is muslim or not his parents are according to most sources and the little saying is, Blood is thicker than water...

Sis. Alvear...

My family is unsaved and if you knew what was in my family history would you say the same about me?

Think about it. This stuff is irrational fear because he doesn't have an English name and happens to be black. I can see disagreeing with him because of his politics...but because of his name and his skin color?

We're better than this brethren. I sincerely believe we are.

[ChristopherHall]

This is why nobody believes Christians. We rarely stick to the facts. LOL

[StMark]

Bro Mark...you're above this kind of thing. To say you disagree with a man's politics is fair. But in all honesty bro...what you're saying about him isn't grounded in fact. It's already been solidly refuted. It was all part of an email rumor. LOL



I'll try to find the article. his father was an extreme muslim who has associations with terrorist groups. His mother bloew his cover in a radio interview.

[StMark]

Sis. Alvear...

My family is unsaved and if you knew what was in my family history would you say the same about me?

Think about it. This stuff is irrational fear because he doesn't have an English name and happens to be black. I can see disagreeing with him because of his politics...but because of his name and his skin color?

We're better than this brethren. I sincerely believe we are.'

im going to admit, his name scares me- he has a muslim name folks hello!
his skin color doesn't. I'm white and my pastor is black.most whites can't say that cuz they would never sit under a black( and they would never admit that either)

[ChristopherHall]

Here are some links from Snopes.com, where they refute all this urban legend stuff.

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=Obama+and+Muslim&getit=Go&sp-a=00062d45-sp00000000&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-date-range=-1&sp-x=any&sp-c=100&sp-m=1&sp-s=0

1. Urban Legends Reference Pages: Who Is Barack Obama? •••
E-mail describes Illinois senator Barack Obama as a 'radical Muslim' who 'will not recite the Pledge of Allegiance.'
...Politics --> Barack Obama --> Who Is Barack Obama? Who Is Barack Obama? Claim: Illinois senator Barack Obama is a "radical Muslim" who "will not...
...heed this and pray about it and share it. Who is Barack Obama? Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born in Honolulu,...
...to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHEIST from Wichita, Kansas. Obama's parents met at the...
Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:35:33 GMT http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

2. Urban Legends Reference Pages: Barack Obama and the National Anthem •••
Barack Obama does not place his hand over his heart when the U.S. national anthem is played?
...Home --> Politics --> Barack Obama --> Hand Over Heart Hand Over Heart Claim: Photograph shows Barack Obama without his hand over his heart while...
...Senator Barack Obama, Governor Bill Richardson, Senator Hillary Clinton and Ruth Harkin stand during the national anthem. Barack Hussein Obama's photo...
...him that are circulating via e-mail: that he is a Muslim, that he was sworn in to Congress on the Quran, and that he refuses to say the Pledge of...
Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:30:08 GMT http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

3. Urban Legends Reference Pages: Barack Obama - Trinity United Church of Christ •••
E-mail describes Illinois senator Barack Obama's church as having a racist, ;non-negotiable commitment to Africa.'
...Home --> Politics --> Barack Obama --> Holy Trinity Holy Trinity Claim: Illinois senator Barack Obama is a racist whose church has a...
...to Africa" that is covertly Muslim and excludes non-blacks. Example: [Collected via e-mail, December 2007] Obama mentioned his church during his...
...Obama's church: Please read and go to this church's website and read what is written there. It is very alarming. Barack Obama is a member of this...
Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:26:38 GMT http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/church.asp

4. Urban Legends Reference Pages: Congressional Swearing-In on the Quran •••
Did a Muslim Congressman take his oath of office on the Quran instead of the Bible?
...Claim: A newly-elected Muslim Congressman took his oath of office on the Quran instead of the Bible. Example: [Collected via e-mail, 2006] A...
...friends and family. America, Not Keith Ellison, decides what book a congressman takes his oath on Keith Ellison, D-Minn., the first Muslim...
...since mistakenly become associated with Illinois Senator Barack Obama, who is not a Muslim and did not use a Quran in conjunction with a Congressional...
Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:34:38 GMT http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/ellison.asp

While we examine this, let's keep the following in mind...

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." - Exodus 20:16

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Check this out at wikipedia at the link below:
I did not cut and paste all of the article. To read the entire article, click on the link..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

Barack Obama
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
"Obama" redirects here. For other uses, see Obama (disambiguation).
Barack Obama



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Junior Senator
from Illinois
Incumbent
Assumed office
January 2, 2005
Serving with Richard Durbin
Preceded by Peter Fitzgerald

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Member of the Illinois State Senate
from the 13th district
In office
1997 – 2004
Succeeded by Kwame Raoul

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Born August 4, 1961 (1961-08-04) (age 46)
Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.
Nationality American
Political party Democratic
Spouse Michelle Obama
Alma mater Columbia University,
Harvard Law School
Religion Christian (United Church of Christ)
Signature
Barack Hussein Obama (pronounced /bəˈrɑːk huˈseɪn oʊˈbɑːmə/;[1] born August 4, 1961) is the junior United States Senator from Illinois and a leading candidate for the Democratic nomination in the 2008 presidential election.[2][3] The U.S. Senate Historical Office lists him as the fifth African American Senator in U.S. history, the third to have been popularly elected, and the only African American currently serving in the Senate.[4]

Obama was born in Honolulu to a black Kenyan father and a white American mother. He lived most of his early life in the U.S. state of Hawaii. From ages six to ten, he lived in Jakarta, Indonesia with his mother and Indonesian stepfather. A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, Obama worked as a community organizer, University of Chicago lecturer, and civil rights lawyer before running for public office and serving in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004. After an unsuccessful bid for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000, he announced his campaign for U.S. Senate in 2003.

The following year, while still an Illinois state legislator, Obama delivered the keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.[5] He was elected to the U.S. Senate in November 2004 with 70% of the vote.[6] As a member of the Democratic minority in the 109th Congress, Obama co-sponsored legislation for controlling conventional weapons and for promoting transparency in public life; in addition, he made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. In the 110th, and current, Congress, he has sponsored legislation on lobbying and electoral fraud, climate change, nuclear terrorism, and care for returned U.S. military personnel.

Since announcing his presidential campaign in February 2007, Obama has emphasized ending the Iraq War, increasing energy independence, and providing universal health care as major priorities.[7] He married in 1992 and has two daughters. He has written two bestselling books: a memoir of his youth titled Dreams from My Father, and The Audacity of Hope, a personal commentary on U.S. politics.[8]

[Sister Alvear]

his color does not scare me. I have children as black as you can get...I am like mark his name scares me...his history scares me...he is not american to the bone. have you ever been to some of these foreign countries? Never think most of them will really welcome you.

[StMark]

his color does not scare me. I have children as black as you can get...I am like mark his name scares me...his history scares me...he is not american to the bone. have you ever been to some of these foreign countries? Never think most of them will really welcome you.


There you have it Chris- don't argue with that

[AmazingGrace]

[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]


WORDS OF WISDOM !!!

Mark... I havent followed these threads too much but question.. if he beats out Billary by some odd chance and runs.. will you still vote democratic for a muslim or will you go Republican???

[Sister Alvear]

never think those that have "blood" from other countries do not have two loves...

[StMark]

Mark... I havent followed these threads too much but question.. if he beats out Billary by some odd chance and runs.. will you still vote democratic for a muslim or will you go Republican???

I will not vote for Obama Saddam Hussien Barak for all the diamonds in africa

[Sister Alvear]

I am American...I am the only mother some of my adopted children know...they love me. I honestly believe if someone tried to hurt me they would kill for me. They are overly protective of me however let Brazil and the US play soccer never think for one moment they want the US to win...even though they love the states and all it has to offer...

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

It could, It could, It could. It could NOT too. That's the point. Both men were NOT in his life very long.

Look at the quotes...he quotes part of paragraph then adds.....then another quote from somewhere else. In other words that person left OUT a lot and put two unconnected statements together.

Study his record. I agree. Study his words and books incontext. I agree. No disagreement there. What has anyone really done for America? What did Dubya do for America before he was elected?


I won't defend Dubya's record before election or after election.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=george%20w.%20Bush

Just to clear things up in case there was some confusion. I did not say Barack Obama was Islamic - just that he might be more likely to have sympathies toward the Islamic world than Hillary or McCain would.

[AmazingGrace]

I will not vote for Obama Saddam Hussien Barak for all the diamonds in africa

Good... I was just not aware of how you stood on this and was honestly not thinking you would but had to ask :)

[ChristopherHall]

I cannot judge him for his parents living overseas. Many American kids from mixed families in Missions spend a lot of time in foreign countries when they are young. Does that make them any less American? Should one of these young people ever run for office are we to say, "not american to the bone"? It may be that their international experience would make them more qualified to be President. I was a member of People to People International student youth exchange when I was in high school. I think it could be an asset.

I really wish you could step aside and hear what this might sound like if you heard yourself saying this stuff folks. It's really not reflecting well of you.

It would be better to just say something about him gives you pause, than to cook up a bunch of irrational stuff to justify your feelings. LOL

[Sister Alvear]

I do not vote as you folks know but if I were a voting person it would not be for someone who has pulls from two worlds...

[chosenbyone]

This is why nobody believes Christians. We rarely stick to the facts. LOL


Well, some of us do. BTW, I have appreciated the fact that you have stuck to your views and opinions even while under attack from several other members.

People fear change even at the cost of tearing down other people's character.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I will not vote for Obama Saddam Hussien Barak for all the diamonds in africa


If you had to make a choice and you HAD to pick one:

(1) Would you join the Tulsa group or

(2) Vote for Barack Obama?

[StMark]

Good... I was just not aware of how you stood on this and was honestly not thinking you would but had to ask :)

now have you asked chosenbyone?

run that Qs by him too okay?

[StMark]

If you had to make a choice and you HAD to pick one:

(1) Would you join the Tulsa group or

(2) Vote for Barack Obama?


now what kinda "NUTTER" Question is that ???? :happydance

[AmazingGrace]

I will throw that question out to everyone... I would start a open poll... but dont know how and too tired... but yea.. everyone? If it was Obama.... would you still vote demo????

[Sister Alvear]

With all respect my dear friend...Obama was born in Honolulu to a black Kenyan father and a white American mother. He lived most of his early life in the U.S. state of Hawaii. From ages six to ten, he lived in Jakarta, Indonesia with his mother and Indonesian stepfather...

Do you know how Indonesia feels about Americans? Do you not think any of that has a secret pull on his heart strings?
I have been in the mist of Muslins and know the fear I felt as I rode a taxi through an area they were having a march in...I saw the looks of hate...
I know what it is to be standing in front of a church in the Philippines and the pastor come and ask me to come inside because there were so many muslins and my life could be in danger...
I know the feel that many americans do not know and many would have you to believe it is not so...

[ChristopherHall]

I do not vote as you folks know but if I were a voting person it would not be for someone who has pulls from two worlds...

I have spent considerable time in Canada and I love the place. I am also an American who has served in the U.S. Army. I am also an Apostolic Pentecostal. I have pulls from at least three different worlds. LOL

Sis...that's a bunch of mumbo jumbo and ya know it. ;)

[Sister Alvear]

I love all you folks so please do not feel bad at me because some of our opinions differ...I just see grave danger for America no matter who gets in.

[Sister Alvear]

Well Cris time will tell...

[StMark]

I wanna wish everyone a good night(except for christopher & chosenby1)

[StMark]

I love all you folks so please do not feel bad at me because some of our opinions differ...I just see grave danger for America no matter who gets in.


this is the 2nd time you've said this i asked you to explain in detail what you mean by this

[AmazingGrace]

I wanna wish everyone a good night(except for christopher & chosenby1)

Good night friend and have a blessed church service!

I will be watching in the morning (dr told me I was not allowed to go at all since my thing yesterday but I am sneaking out tomorrow night lol) so have some good music!

Night everyone else too... gotta go to bed... the drugs are beginning (no comments yall lol) to make me loopy!

[ChristopherHall]

With all respect my dear friend...Obama was born in Honolulu to a black Kenyan father and a white American mother. He lived most of his early life in the U.S. state of Hawaii. From ages six to ten, he lived in Jakarta, Indonesia with his mother and Indonesian stepfather...

Do you know how Indonesia feels about Americans? Do you not think any of that has a secret pull on his heart strings?

Knowing how kids are...I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't know what it was like to get a blood nose because he was born to an American mother. Knowing kids he's probably been taunted for being an American. He might want to be president so he can nuke Indonesia and get some payback. LOLOL

My point is...you're making judgments about him by assuming you know his heart. That's the first sign that you're not altogether going to be right on this.

I have been in the mist of Muslins and know the fear I felt as I rode a taxi through an area they were having a march in...I saw the looks of hate...

I know what it is to be standing in front of a church in the Philippines and the pastor come and ask me to come inside because there were so many muslins and my life could be in danger...
I know the feel that many americans do not know and many would have you to believe it is not so...

Hmmmm....and how did that make you feel? LOL

There it is. You're projecting past experiences (a common psychological mechanism caused by trauma and disassociation) onto a man you don't even know. Sis...he's not a Muslim. And you're no longer in a taxi being stared at by hateful people. No one is going to hurt you. It's ok.

Sis, seriously, Obama aside. You might want to consider that there may be some additional things you're carrying from that time in our life that you haven't really talked about. You might want to find a way to make peace with some friendly Muslims that can dispel some of the fear. God hasn't given us a spirit of fear and I don't believe he intends for you to carry this irrational fear projecting it on others that you really don't even know.

Or...maybe I'm over analyzing. I probably need a shrink worse than anyone here. LOL

[ChristopherHall]

this is the 2nd time you've said this i asked you to explain in detail what you mean by this

I feel she's right bro. No matter who gets in. I can feel the wind starting to chill as the storm front comes this way.

[ChristopherHall]

I wanna wish everyone a good night(except for christopher & chosenby1)

LOL

You got to be kidding. Good night bro. Love you man.

[Sister Alvear]

this is the 2nd time you've said this i asked you to explain in detail what you mean by this

sorry, I did not see it. I just see America haas no real choice for president, seems like things (money wise) are not the best...I see so much trouble when I come to the states...distrust...
It just seems like we are liking on the brink of some happening that will change the course of history...
America is no longer respected by many countries as she once was, the dollar is not strong...just lots of things...

[Sister Alvear]

and sweet dreams to you all and us here in south America...

[HeavenlyOne]

The terrorist cells were in America for years. Yet they didn't attack until 9-11-2001. Why? Why didn't they attack us under President Clinton? I asked a retired military friend of mine this and he gave me this answer, "The terrorists attacked us in 2001... because they could." He then explained how the Bush administration cut funds to several counter terrorist projects, re-arranged the system, and even placed new leadership over the departments. Clinton ran a real tight ship. When Bush's anti-terror decisions prior to 9-11 are compared to President Clinton's...President Clinton was far tougher on terror and had more counter terrorism measures in place.

So in my mind...I wonder...maybe America would be safer with Democrats back in office. The idea that Democrats want to get blown up or don't care if their own families die in a terrorist assult is just stupid. I don't know. I do know the Democrats would have no qualms with using strong domestic measures. Just a thought.

We were attacked 3 or 4 times from AlQueda while Clinton was in office. We just didn't get it on American soil until 2001.

Clinton ran a tight ship? Why didn't he do something about the attacks on two or three military bases and the USS Cole???

Instead, we were off fighting wars in Bosnia and Somalia.

[HeavenlyOne]

his mother is not muslim

And he hasn't seen his father since he was a small child. Nor his step-father, I believe.

[Praxeas]

'

im going to admit, his name scares me- he has a muslim name folks hello!
his skin color doesn't. I'm white and my pastor is black.most whites can't say that cuz they would never sit under a black( and they would never admit that either)
He has an Arabic name. What if your Pastor's last name was Abdul? Oh my...I just had a revelation. Paula Abdul is a covert Muslim trying to take over the US

[Praxeas]

his color does not scare me. I have children as black as you can get...I am like mark his name scares me...his history scares me...he is not american to the bone. have you ever been to some of these foreign countries? Never think most of them will really welcome you.
HE has no history. It's his father and step father who were NOT in his life very long. God forbid we judge each other based on our parents or grandparents or great grandparents. He was BORN in America. His MOTHER is American.

[ChristopherHall]

sorry, I did not see it. I just see America haas no real choice for president, seems like things (money wise) are not the best...I see so much trouble when I come to the states...distrust...
It just seems like we are liking on the brink of some happening that will change the course of history...
America is no longer respected by many countries as she once was, the dollar is not strong...just lots of things...

Yep...Bush tanked us. lol

When he got reelected my wife looked at me and said, "Our country will never survive another four years of this man." The next President has to pick up a lot of pieces. Sadly, I don't think it's going to get much better. We're already a second rate nation though we're unwilling to admit it.

[Praxeas]

never think those that have "blood" from other countries do not have two loves...
Your last name....is it Latin? WE ALL have blood from other countries...good grief.

Wikipedia

Obama was born in Honolulu to a black Kenyan father and a white American mother. He lived most of his early life in the U.S. state of Hawaii. From ages six to ten, he lived in Jakarta, Indonesia with his mother and Indonesian stepfather. A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, Obama worked as a community organizer, University of Chicago lecturer, and civil rights lawyer before running for public office and serving in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004.

4 years he spent in another country.... :reaction:reaction

Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, Hawaii to Barack Obama, Sr. (born in Nyanza Province, Kenya, of Luo ethnicity) and Ann Dunham (born in Wichita, Kansas).[9] Throughout his early years, he was commonly known at home and school as "Barry".[10] Obama's parents met while both were attending the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student.[11] They separated when he was two years old and later divorced.[12] His father went to Harvard University to pursue Ph.D. studies, then returned to Kenya, where he died in an auto accident in 1982.[13] His mother married another foreign student, Lolo Soetoro, and the family moved to Soetoro's home country of Indonesia in 1967.[14] Obama attended local schools in Jakarta from ages 6 to 10, where classes were taught in Indonesian.[15][16] He then returned to Honolulu to live with his maternal grandparents, Madelyn and Stanley Dunham, while attending Punahou School from the fifth grade until his graduation in 1979.[17] Obama's mother died of ovarian cancer a few months after the publication of his 1995 memoir, Dreams from My Father.[18]

He spent MOST of his life in America with Americans in American schools people.

[ChristopherHall]

We were attacked 3 or 4 times from AlQueda while Clinton was in office. We just didn't get it on American soil until 2001.

Clinton ran a tight ship? Why didn't he do something about the attacks on two or three military bases and the USS Cole???

Instead, we were off fighting wars in Bosnia and Somalia.

It's complicated. Embasies, bases, and ships in foreign countries are largely pretty vulnerable if those countries have loose security. President Clinton cannot control the security protocols of other countries. And let me make a correction, we did see terrorists hit the WTC in 93. However, Clinton was able to bring the mastermind behind the attacks to justice. Osama bin Laden is still free. It was after 93 that President Clinton got real strong on domestic measures to protect us from terror. If you remember President Clinton was resisted by the Republican congress when trying to pass anti-terror legislation. The Republicans forced a compromise on several provisions of the anti-terror bill. Some of those provisions the Republicans got thrown out in the 90s were contained in the Patriot Act. It's an interesting study.

[Praxeas]

I do not vote as you folks know but if I were a voting person it would not be for someone who has pulls from two worlds...
He does not have pulls from two worlds and if he does prove it.

If there is any reason to fear him and Islamic ties it is because he is a democrat. They are blind when it comes to muslims settling here and just becoming Americans...just like the Lebanese were

[ChristopherHall]

He has an Arabic name. What if your Pastor's last name was Abdul? Oh my...I just had a revelation. Paula Abdul is a covert Muslim trying to take over the US

:toofunny

[Praxeas]

With all respect my dear friend...Obama was born in Honolulu to a black Kenyan father and a white American mother. He lived most of his early life in the U.S. state of Hawaii. From ages six to ten, he lived in Jakarta, Indonesia with his mother and Indonesian stepfather...

Do you know how Indonesia feels about Americans? Do you not think any of that has a secret pull on his heart strings?
I have been in the mist of Muslins and know the fear I felt as I rode a taxi through an area they were having a march in...I saw the looks of hate...
I know what it is to be standing in front of a church in the Philippines and the pastor come and ask me to come inside because there were so many muslins and my life could be in danger...
I know the feel that many americans do not know and many would have you to believe it is not so...
He was there for FOUR years....from 6-10. He is NOT Indonesian. While there he attended both muslim schools and catholic schools...maybe he is gonna make the pope king of America?

[Praxeas]

I love all you folks so please do not feel bad at me because some of our opinions differ...I just see grave danger for America no matter who gets in.
I do too! Has nothing to do with Obama's name or father or step father.

[ChristopherHall]

Praxeas, most people have been socially conditioned against Democrats. It's a powerful psychological tool that's been used by the far right for a long time. If you bring up a strong, objective, fact based case for a Democrat they will resort to irrational resistance. They will instantly mention:

- What about abortion?
- What about gays?
- What about unAmerican (terror, war, enemy, communist, illegal aliens, etc.)?

There's always someone or something to fear. Someone to blame.

You will notice that these are not issues that have a real chance of directly effecting them personally. These are mental barriers built around our deepest fears using our convictions against us. It's a lot like that movie "They Live" that came out in the 80s. Everyone thinks they see clearly...but when they look around...things just aren't what they appeared to be and those in charge have been using psychological conditioning tactics to control us. It's a science in the corporate world. They know how to advertise and get you to want and buy. They know how to lay the store out to increase your percentage chances of buying things you didn't go into the store to get. They can even work out mathematic algorithms with computers to track your buying habits and anticipate what you're going to need to buy soon. Bro...it's Big Brother Incorporated.

http://midnightjester.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/big_brother.jpg

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/theylive.jpg

[ChristopherHall]

He was there for FOUR years....from 6-10. He is NOT Indonesian. While there he attended both muslim schools and catholic schools...maybe he is gonna make the pope king of America?

The schools he attended weren't specifically "Muslim schools", they were public schools in Muslim countries.

[Sister Alvear]

I visited a Muslin school...very scary feeling.

However time will tell. I find H.C. a very evil person also so voting Americans have seemly little choice.

We have a president in Brazil that is socialist by name but communist at heart. With each passing day here life becomes harder...so I really cannot say much about the states. Voting is madatory here. They have a way to anule their votes but they must go to the poles and have their card stamped.

One of my sons feels deeply like I do about voting and endtime and pays a fine every year which is possible if your voting card is from another area and you are not there. Of course he believes like I do aabout end time also...another son seems to like politics...so it is not something that is a dividing factor. We are an open family and we can freely express our opinion.
In churches I have taken care of I will not let a politician up at all..my husband will askthem to stand and tell the people who they are and Raul Jr will have them greet the people so it is not a problem we are free to do however we feel and so it is with our workers. We think it is however each pastor feels. I would NEVER mistreat one and the ex president wife of Brazil is my personal friend and I prayed her through to the Holy Ghost. However she knows how I feel but we are friends. she is not a member of our church but has come many times and told me when she decides to be baptized she wants to be in Jesus name. So I hope I am not some mean old lady!
In fact I am a people person but the more I have studied church history the more I have backed away from politics...at one time I took our people and we walked the streets helping politicians because I felt at that time I was doing right...the more I saw the more my eyes were opened to politics...So I do not speak as one that has never been there...I speak from a deep conviction but at the same time it is not my purpose to offend anyone.

[Pressing-On]

Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope, Thoughts on Reclaiming The American Dream

"How well these stories are told, the subtlety of the arguments and the aulity of the evidence, will vary by author, and I won't deny my preference for the story the Democrats tell, nor my belief that the arguments of liberals are more often grounded in reason and fact." pg. 24

"I believe in evolution, scientific inquiry, and global warming......" page 10

[scotty]

I love all you folks so please do not feel bad at me because some of our opinions differ...I just see grave danger for America no matter who gets in.


I believe as you do Sister Alvear. We are not long in this old world.


America is not what it used to be and it never will be again. Over time the powers that be have given in little by little to compromise. Yes, McCain has compromised much to his conservative base. Does that mean we too now have to compromise our moral values to support someone in order to have at least one of the issues we want on the table? Bro. Hall would have us believe so. He himself has compromised the label of “Christian” by applying it to Obama who is a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights, trinitarian. Is that discription found under the definition of the word Christian ? Do you believe the apostles would have used those words to describe themselves?


Colossians 2
8. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.


Where do we stop compromising? Where do we stop altogether? Do we give in to these immoral issues so we can have cheaper health insurance ? Is that an acceptable compromise?


Luke 12
22 Then He said to His disciples, “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on.
23 Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.
24 Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds?
25 And which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
26 If you then are not able to do the least, why are you anxious for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith?
29 “And do not seek what you should eat or what you should drink, nor have an anxious mind.
30 For all these things the nations of the world seek after, and your Father knows that you need these things.
31 But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.


Hillary and Obama have both side step the question of whether or not they will continue to support Israel. Is that an acceptable compromise? The Bible says all nations will rise up against Israel, not some, but all. That includes us. So these candidates could easily fit that role. Both also are members of lobby groups that are systematicly removing God from every aspect of life they possibly can. Is that an acceptable compromise?


Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


I believe as Sister Alvear and many others that time is coming to the end. We are not trying to be prophetic. Just something in the “spiritual” air. Recent conferences, meetings, ministries, sermons and interpretations have all pointed and talk of the end time revival. With that will come the increased persecution. These anti-God groups and their candidates would fit well in that role wouldn't they?

Doesn't the Bible say that God sets up the nations kings and rulers? So wouldn't Gods will be done whether we voted or not? If we voted for the other guy, would Gods will be thwarted?


I think this November 4th instead of voting I will be in prayer that God gives me the strength to carry on in the perfect and righteous will that He has placed ahead of me. After all, despite the old saying we all have heard, I can assure you, it won't matter whether the creek rises or not, the will of God will be done.

[Sister Alvear]

I am off to service...I wish you folks could look over my shoulder today...

[ChristopherHall]

America is not what it used to be and it never will be again. Over time the powers that be have given in little by little to compromise. Yes, McCain has compromised much to his conservative base. Does that mean we too now have to compromise our moral values to support someone in order to have at least one of the issues we want on the table? Bro. Hall would have us believe so. He himself has compromised the label of “Christian” by applying it to Obama who is a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights, trinitarian. Is that discription found under the definition of the word Christian ? Do you believe the apostles would have used those words to describe themselves?



Scotty, first I'd like to say your statements are very offensive, I imagined that you would be thoughtful and actually hear what I'm communicating, though you might disagree.

Scotty, the art of politics is compromise. It's appealing to all men's better angels regardless of their own personal interests. Religion is founded upon absolute truths. The two are not similar in any way. I get the feeling that you don't want a country. A country would be too diverse for you. You want a massive CHURCH politically ruling the land. As I said a moment ago, politics is the art of compromise...coming half way, and finding consensus. For example we might disagree with the use of alcohol. Yet many Americans desire to use alcohol (some in moderation some do abuse it). So what are we to do? In our churches we can take an absolute stand against it. No member using alcohol can be in good standing. Period. No negotiating, no compromise. However, in politics it's different. We agree to disagree. We set guidelines the majority can agree with. Like age standards for purchase, laws regarding transporting open containers, laws regarding driving while intoxicated, laws regarding public intoxication. It's a compromise to keep civic harmony and maintain personal liberties between people of different opinions. For that reason I'd never support a ban on alcohol, but I might not agree with the notion of a church member being a drunkard remaining in good standard or serving in leadership. No compromise...in the church. I know a of a man in Canada that pastors a conservative church in the same city there are churches that perform civil unions for gay couples. This pastor acknowledges that these churches have the freedom to practice their religion as they see it...however his church will NEVER perform a civil union between gay people. Notice that in politics he understands civility and agrees to disagee, however in faith he is uncompromising. Sadly, most American Christians aren't this spiritually mature. American Christians assume that if you're not for government outlawing everything they consider sinful you've somehow compromised your faith. I disagree. Politics is politics. It keeps the peace and allows many different folk to find their freedom to pursue happiness in our country. However...religion and religion. And under no circumstances will Bible believing churches allow unbiblical relationships or practices into their assemblies. The church is uncompromising where she stands.

I want to also point out a big lie we often tell as Christians. I'll admt, I've told this lie too. I have often said that Democrats are "Pro-Abortion". Let's really look at that statement. "Pro-Abortion" means, advocating that everyone have an abortion, encouraging it, and perhaps even mandating it like some communist countries do. But the truth is that most Democrats aren't "Pro-Abortion". Most Democrats see abortion as an issue that needs to be addressed and prevented. The Democrats I know sincerely want to see the abortion rate lowered in America. I've talked with women who have had abortions. I've heard them tell their stories with tear filled eyes looking for grace and forgiveness for having done something so henious. One woman said something I'll never forget. She said, "Chris, no little girl ever said, 'Mommy I want to have an abortion when I grow up.'" She went on to explain how desperate her situation was and how fearful she was. Her family was about to throw her into the streets if she didn't abort it. Her boyfriend, who lied to her and seduced her walked out on her. She had no job and was in school. Her parents told her she was ruining her entire future if she had her baby. She couldn't make enough money working at McDonald's to pay for an apartment, vehicle, food, etc. Also she had no health insurance and where she's located pregnancy is considered a "pre-existing condition" by many insurerers she was looking into and they wouldn't cover her pregnancy. Her friends were pressuring her to think about herself and her future. She wanted thought about adoption but found that she'd want to keep the baby if carried to term. So in desperation she gave in and opted for abortion. Women who choose abortion are typically in a very desperate position. One woman I talked to had a boyfriend who got her hooked on drugs and began to prostitute her. She got pregnant and she feared for her life. Her boyfriend beat her badly one night demanding that she have an abortion. She was so terrified and addicted to drugs she gave in and had an abortion. Bro...when you hear the word abortion, think of the word "desperation". Many of these women feel absolutely desperate and trapped, often forced into making their choice. In America before Roe the abortion rate was higher than it is today. Why? First, there's more birth control available today. Second, women have more places to turn for assistance. You have to realize that we have to address the deeper issues behind abortion. Banning abortion will do little to reduce the abortion rate. Not to mention...no judge or politician has the desire to ban abortion. Even strict conservative judges will rule on the side of choice. Why? Because abortion was legal in the US until roughly the mid 1800's. Even in the time of George Washington there were abortion procedures. Doctors often refered to the "quickening". They wouldn't perform an abortion if they found movement. But that was a general rule embraced voluntarily by physicians. So even constructionist judges argue that our founders had no intention on banning abortion because the issue isn't even addressed by them. The issue was only addressed in various states at the state level throughout the union and that's it. So the point is, I don' now of anyone who is truly "Pro-Abortion". Most Democrats and moderate Republicans I know are "Pro-Choice". That simply means they believe the situation is best left in the hands of individual women to decide. They feel the government shouldn't entangle itself in this issue because it's so personal and so difficult on many levels. Even most "Pro-Life" Republicans acknowledge that abortion should be legal in cases of rape, incest, or to protect the life and health of the mother. That means they would favor allowing a woman to choose abortion if raped or molested, that means they favor killing the unborn for the sin of it's father. They would also allow the woman to have an abortion to protect her life and health, setting the precident that the welfare of the woman in question is the primary concern under the law. Here's the deal. Abortion isn't going away. No Western nation that has legalized abortion has ever shifted back into prohibition on abortion. It's time we realize that it's not going to happen. That means we have to look at the issues that make women feel so desperate they choose to abort. That means that we who are Pro-Life have to realize that punching a ballot in the voting both does NOTHING to save lives. What will help women? Policies that provide contraceptives to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies and policies that offer assistance to women with crisis pregnancies. But here's the issue...those conservative pro-life people you hear chanting about how sacred they believe life is....they are unwilling to pay a dime in taxes to help any of this programs get off the ground. Programs like WIC that many poor mothers depend upon are slashed and hacked when it comes to their funding and women find that they have fewer places to turn and even less help. Guess what...that means MORE abortion. Most of these "pro-life" conservatives are against provisions making contraceptives more available and covered under all health insurance. Guess what that means...more unplanned pregnancies and...more abortion. I don't mean to be mean...but don't tell me you're pro-life and then argue against measures that will reduce the rate of abortion in the US. I've stated many times, and I've noticed that some of caught on, countries in Western Europe have used these measures to reduce abortion rates drastically even though abortions are legal in their countries. Sadly, conservatives are against doing these things...therefore they are against reducing the numbers of abortion.

There's more than one way to combat abortion. But the conservatives have yet to catch on.

[ChristopherHall]

Continued:

Where do we stop compromising? Where do we stop altogether? Do we give in to these immoral issues so we can have cheaper health insurance ? Is that an acceptable compromise?


It's not about "cheaper" health insurance. It's like the subject above...committing to measures that will save lives. In America thousands of people die every year because they can't afford the treatment they need. Obviously some don't care. They say they care about the unborn and their lives...but they don't seem to care about these thousands who die every year. They say they care for the lives of the unborn...yet most would be born into families that don't have health insurance and cannot see to it that they get proper medical attention if needed. There's the story of one young man born into a black family in a major US city. This young man was part of the demographic that is most often aborted...conceived by a single mother, conceived in poverty, and black (higher rates of abortion is found among the poor black communities). But his mother believed in the value of life and had her baby. She worked two jobs and was barely ever home. He stayed with his grandma most days while mom worked. Though his mom worked two jobs she could only afford to barely make ends meet. She still couldnt afford health insurance. When this young man was 8 years old he came down with a serious dental infection. He was turned away from treatment because their family didn't have health insurance and couldn't afford to pay a high percentage up front. His family turned to current programs that help folks without insurance. Well, because she worked two jobs and had an income she was denied the subsidized coverage. Charities she turned to said they had more desperate cases and that she was put on a waiting list for assistance. Well...her sons dental infection got worse during this period and the infection eventually spread into his brain. He later died after being rushed to the ER. What amazes me is that so many who call themselves "Pro-Life" would fight tooth and nail to see to it that this young man was born...but so few were willing to also stand up and advocate that he and thousands of other Americans who died that year have the health insurance they needed to save their lives. Frankly, those who say they are "Pro-Life" and stop at the abortion issue are not "Pro-Life"....they are merely "Anti-Abortion", many of them could care less that so many die without health insurance. I'm one of many who believe in the sanctity of life who believes that the responsiblity of being pro-life means advocating for health and quality of life from the womb to the tomb. That's what I believe is REAL pro-life.

As for gay rights. Frankly, gays make me sick. But it's a free country. As long as some man doesn't sneak into my room some night and try to gay marry me I don't care what they do in private because my God sees all men's sins and will judge them accordingly. I assure you where ever they allow gay marriage the gospel will bring "gay divorce", especially when he sets one of them free. lol

Hillary and Obama have both side step the question of whether or not they will continue to support Israel. Is that an acceptable compromise? The Bible says all nations will rise up against Israel, not some, but all. That includes us. So these candidates could easily fit that role. Both also are members of lobby groups that are systematicly removing God from every aspect of life they possibly can. Is that an acceptable compromise?

Israel is a backslidden nation that needs to repent and believe the gospel, so I'm not spiritual enamored with them. Now, as for government polices. We are too entrenched with Israel. It doesn't matter who's elected, we have too many treaties and agreements with Israel to end supporting her. We may ask that she be more equitable to the Palistinians. They didn't ask for this. They are just people like you and me who want to work and raise families. Suddenly in 1948 the UN took Palistine away from them and gave it back to the Jews. Did the Jewish people humbly begin working side by side with the Palistinians? No. It was virtually open warfare with both sides fighting for land they each firmly believed was their own. Frankly, while I support the UN giving Israel the land, I don't think Israel has behaved all that wisely in how she's delt with those who lived there and raised families there for centuries before they returned. In many ways I think we're just trying to moderate between two people that have no love or respect for eachother and never will. I can only hope each side realizes that no one will gain anything by constant war.

The Democrats aren't going to remove God from every aspect of life. And it's not their mission to do so. I was listening to an interview of Jim Wallis earlier today indicating that more and more liberals are discovering their Christian faith. More and more Evangelicals are deciding that the extremists in the Christian Right don't speak for them nor Jesus and are choosing to cross over into the progressive camp. More pastors are writing books like The Revolution and A New Kind of Conservative that advocate more progressive approaches to today's issues because the conservative positions just aren't working. Bro, they ain't going to remove God from public life. And even if they tried...God would arise and put them into derision. God doesn't need you or I to defend him. It amazes me how we think we have to defend God like he's some scared little girl the liberals are bullying around. That's one thing that turns me off from the far right. They think they and the liberals are more powerful than God. They think they have to rush to God's help because he can't stop the ACLU all by himself. Hogwash. The moment they try to remove God from public life...is the moment God will reveal himself mighty before all peoples. When we moderates hear that some extreme liberal is trying to ban God from public life, we don't feel we have to defend our God. We know he's able. We just say a prayer for those poor deluded souls and ask that God not hurt them too badly when he demonstrates his power over even them.

I believe as Sister Alvear and many others that time is coming to the end. We are not trying to be prophetic. Just something in the “spiritual” air. Recent conferences, meetings, ministries, sermons and interpretations have all pointed and talk of the end time revival. With that will come the increased persecution. These anti-God groups and their candidates would fit well in that role wouldn't they?

I think you're missing the heart beat of God. These groups are not the enemy. Even the most extreme godless liberal isn't the enemy. In fact, it is these individuals God expects us to reach. These "godless liberals" are the reason we are here, they are souls God desires us to bring into reconciliation. Satan has a deception he's used...he has confused us and made us hate and fight the very people we're supposed to be trying to forge a relationship with and win. Satan has tricked us into declaring war against the mission field! I too believe that something big is about to happen. But when it does I believe God is going to turn the tables. I believe that it's going to be like how he delt with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. When God begins to move he will bring many to their knees and it will be these liberals who are trying to find God in droves...because they are the ones who don't know him. These will not suddenly become conservatives, but they will be seeking answers and healing and we have to be there ready to minister to them and help them find the Lord. Of course when the storm hits Satan wants us on the radio and television saying, "This is the fault of all those liberals! Yes this is all their fault!" He knows that when we act like this the unsaved masses just begin to walk away from us. The enemy is tricky...he's turned us against the very people we have to reach. They may never completely agree with our politics...but they are souls and we have to set politics aside and reach them.

Of course the Right Wing nutcases are going to stand in the way and hinder the gospel...just like the Pharisees of old.

Doesn't the Bible say that God sets up the nations kings and rulers? So wouldn't Gods will be done whether we voted or not? If we voted for the other guy, would Gods will be thwarted?

Your exactly right. I'll tell you what, twice I voted what my Christian Coalition packet told me to vote and I didn't see my choice win. However, when I've praye and asked God who he has chosen and voted what I felt, I hit it dead on.

[scotty]

Sorry Bro. Hall, all I got out of your above post was one big compromise. I am not advocating half the things you stated. You quoted my post then turned right around and put your own opinion to it. Kind of like my wife does. Her favorite line is "so what you mean is" and then the next words out of her mouth don't even come close to ressembling what I said.
What I posted is exactly what I mean.
How do you figure that the anti-God groups are not the enemy. If you can convince them then fine but if not then cast yourself away from them. I can't begin to count the number of scripture for that. Even the apostles were told to kick the dust from their feet in protest of those who don't accept the truth. Just because the rest of the world goes down does not mean I have to accept it or compromise myself. Bro. Hall you have traded the Bible for Hillary Clintons book "It takes a village". The well written post is like reading something from Moveon.org.

Sorry bro. we will have to agree to disagree. As I said, the country you long for is coming, that much I will admit, I chose to keep myself as far from it as possible. I know however I am about to suffer tremendously. As soon as they take office my taxes will go up and my company will suffer thus my income will suffer. But I guess the government will take care of me, huh?

[RandyWayne]

The country that many long for is one where anyone who earns more then them in a given year is required to pay for their services. This is somehow justified by using various words in the bible concerning "the poor".

I always wondered at the reaction if legislation was proposed that ANYONE receiving more benefits then taxes paid, were forced to sign a "Thank You!" card that would be delivered to a random person who PAID more taxes than benefits received. I am sure the outrage would be deafening!

[scotty]

The country that many long for is one where anyone who earns more then them in a given year is required to pay for their services. This is somehow justified by using various words in the bible concerning "the poor".

I always wondered at the reaction if legislation was proposed that ANYONE receiving more benefits then taxes paid, were forced to sign a "Thank You!" card that would be delivered to a random person who PAID more taxes than benefits received. I am sure the outrage would be deafening!

PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ukjustin87]

his mother,in a radio interview slipped and told that Obama was baptized(or whatever their initiation is) as a muslim when he was a child. he went to catholic school for one year and uses that as a cover.

This is completely untrue information. To begin with to be a Muslim you are not baptized or have an initiation. The only requirement to be a Muslim is to confess the Tawhid (Oneness of God). After this they are to believe the basic tenants of Islam (in angels, Tawhid, the Holy Books (which includes the Bible), the Prophets, the resurrection and judgement, and divine fate). They are also to follow the five pillars which include prayer, fasting, charity, pilgrimage, confessing tawhid.

So, if Obama is a Muslim, which he isn't, I can guarantee you that it would have been reported on in the Mainstream media because it would be extremely hard to hide. I mean, it would be fairly hard to hide praying five times a day and going on a Pilgrimage when you are constantly in the media.

If you want to argue against the policy positions of Obama that is fine, but these false accusations of him being Muslim are frankly starting to get old.

[StMark]

This is completely untrue information. To begin with to be a Muslim you are not baptized or have an initiation. The only requirement to be a Muslim is to confess the Tawhid (Oneness of God). After this they are to believe the basic tenants of Islam (in angels, Tawhid, the Holy Books (which includes the Bible), the Prophets, the resurrection and judgement, and divine fate). They are also to follow the five pillars which include prayer, fasting, charity, pilgrimage, confessing tawhid.

So, if Obama is a Muslim, which he isn't, I can guarantee you that it would have been reported on in the Mainstream media because it would be extremely hard to hide. I mean, it would be fairly hard to hide praying five times a day and going on a Pilgrimage when you are constantly in the media.

If you want to argue against the policy positions of Obama that is fine, but these false accusations of him being Muslim are frankly starting to get old.

You think what you want to think. There are muslims of all stripes just like there are so called christians. If you want to support Obama and cast your vote for him you are free to do that.

These really are frieghtening times- especially when even God's people can't see what is coming upon us

[HeavenlyOne]

It's complicated. Embasies, bases, and ships in foreign countries are largely pretty vulnerable if those countries have loose security. President Clinton cannot control the security protocols of other countries. And let me make a correction, we did see terrorists hit the WTC in 93. However, Clinton was able to bring the mastermind behind the attacks to justice. Osama bin Laden is still free. It was after 93 that President Clinton got real strong on domestic measures to protect us from terror. If you remember President Clinton was resisted by the Republican congress when trying to pass anti-terror legislation. The Republicans forced a compromise on several provisions of the anti-terror bill. Some of those provisions the Republicans got thrown out in the 90s were contained in the Patriot Act. It's an interesting study.

I'm with you on the bolded part, but Bin Laden was responsible for those attacks and Clinton did nothing about them. That was my point.

[Sister Alvear]

sad that many seeing eyes are blinded to the time we live in...

[ChicagoPastor]

CP our friendship depends on you NOT voting for him and I am a "D" ya know but I aint voting for no terrorist!!!!!!!! and don't you either. If you do don't ever contact me again


PS tune Christopher out- he's being an advocate of the enemy

it's not like you answer the phone anyways :) :happydance JUST KIDDING.

Ok....so we can be friends....who would you have me vote for?? (Aren't you glad I started this thread....I was/am seriously considering voting for Barak)

[ChristopherHall]

Sorry Bro. Hall, all I got out of your above post was one big compromise. I am not advocating half the things you stated. You quoted my post then turned right around and put your own opinion to it. Kind of like my wife does. Her favorite line is "so what you mean is" and then the next words out of her mouth don't even come close to ressembling what I said.
What I posted is exactly what I mean.
How do you figure that the anti-God groups are not the enemy. If you can convince them then fine but if not then cast yourself away from them. I can't begin to count the number of scripture for that. Even the apostles were told to kick the dust from their feet in protest of those who don't accept the truth. Just because the rest of the world goes down does not mean I have to accept it or compromise myself. Bro. Hall you have traded the Bible for Hillary Clintons book "It takes a village". The well written post is like reading something from Moveon.org.

Sorry bro. we will have to agree to disagree. As I said, the country you long for is coming, that much I will admit, I chose to keep myself as far from it as possible. I know however I am about to suffer tremendously. As soon as they take office my taxes will go up and my company will suffer thus my income will suffer. But I guess the government will take care of me, huh?

Dude, anti-god groups are just sinners who don't know or understand God and resist him. Most of them are just worried about one religious group using political power to silence or persecute another. I know many Christians who are for the separation of church and state. Not because they are anti-God...but because when religion gains control of government the results are evil. We have thousands of years of history to prove this. It takes a balance. I'm not talking about hanging out with the cats, I'm just trying to help you understand where so many of them are coming from. My aunt-in-law was the chair of the Ohio league of women's voters, and she is very liberal and devoted to the separation of church and state. But her husband is an ordained minister! They simply believe in an non-sectarian government that treats ALL fairly.

Our real enemy is Satan. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. You're allowing the Republicans to convince you that anyone who doesn't agree with their agenda is evil, the enemy, and anti-god. That's not the truth bro.

You accused me of imposing my own opinion into what you said. Bro...you're doing that to me too. You're accusing me of compromise and being anti-god just because I don't agree with your Right Wing Extremist philosophy. Bro...that's not right, you know it, and any honest soul reading what your saying knows it.

And I know you'll complain that you're taxes will go up. Honestly bro, you premiums will drop significantly. What you pay in taxes will be less than your ever rising premiums. So yes...your taxes might go up...but you will bring home more of your own money bro. I think it's pretty dumb for someone to say they'd rather pay out nearl $400 dollars in health care premiums every month over just paying out another $110 in taxes and a negotiated premium of $90. Bro...your saving $200 with the government plan! LOL I once knew a salesman who told me, "Chris, many people have a sign on their foreheads that reads, 'Rip me off.'" I'm beginning to believe he's more than right. LOL

Now...there is one aspect of taxation you will have to grapple with because the Democrats balance the budget. That means they are going to have to pay off the deficit that BUSH AND THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS have racked up. So yes, you will most likely get a national health care option that will cost you less than the current plan you have. So you'll save money with that program. But the Democrats will raise taxes, as Clinton did in 92 to pay off the REPUBLICAN DEFICITS. This will strengthen our dollar and help stabilize markets, not to mention get us out of debt with China. Frankly, with the deficit the Republicans have run up it's obvious that anyone who would remotely suggest that the Republicans are fiscally conservative is brainless. Dude, they've racked up record deficits, and the value of the dollar is dropping and this is aiding to the inflation of the cost of living. So in essence the Republicans aren't raising your taxes...they are just making sure the money you have isn't worth as much as other currencies making it go as far as it could. Then Democrat or Republican they will have to raise some taxes to pay off the debt anyway. The Republicans are NOT FISCAL CONSERVATIVES. The Democrats are far more fiscally conservative, especially considering the Democratic policy of paygo.

The Republicans have been doing this since Reagan, rack up big deficits and when the Democrats raise taxes to pay Republican debt they accuse them of raising taxes. Bro...if the Republicans didn't spend like idiots...there'd be no need to raise taxes that drastically at all.

[ChristopherHall]

The country that many long for is one where anyone who earns more then them in a given year is required to pay for their services. This is somehow justified by using various words in the bible concerning "the poor".

I always wondered at the reaction if legislation was proposed that ANYONE receiving more benefits then taxes paid, were forced to sign a "Thank You!" card that would be delivered to a random person who PAID more taxes than benefits received. I am sure the outrage would be deafening!

Bro...do you realize that those making over $200,000 dollars have far more tax shelters available than you do? Their tax shelters have increased greatly, meaning they find ways to pay less in taxes than we do. It shifts the tax burden to the middle class. I'd say the real welfare bums are the ultra rich who aren't willing to pay their weight in taxes. Besides, most welfare programs are primarily on the state level and reforms have brought the welfare rolls down to record levels. Right now the real poor of America are known as the "working poor". These are people who work, often two jobs who can't make ends meet because they aren't making enough money to match the cost of living. These are typically the folks who don't have health insurance because they can't afford it and you end up paying for them in higher premiums while they choose to pay nothing and declare bankruptcy because they just can't pay their medical bills. At least in a universal health insurance system EVERYONE would pay SOMETHING into the national program and all would be covered.

[chosenbyone]

I always considered myself a Republican until Bush Jr took office and my whole perception of the party was shattered. I voted for Kerry during the last Presidential election because I didn't want Bush in office for four more years

His inept leadership has lead us to the brink of financial ruin. Our country has lost credibility and long term allies...the world that once admired us now has turned against us. The war in Iraq has continued to kill innocent civilians and members of our military while costing the tax payers billions and billions of dollars.

If it came down to McCain against Hillary or Obama, I would vote for the Democrat. McCain cannot be trusted and he has stated that he would keep us in Iraq for 100 years. We need to pull out of that country and take care of our own people. There wasn't any Al Queda in Iraq until we occupied that country. The Iraqis hate us because we have killed and displaced millions of their countrymen. Just think if another nation came to our country and did the same thing here!

Americans world view has been distorted by Fox, CNN and other corporate news media. My advice....go online and find out what has been going on in the world and particularly in Iraq.

[ChristopherHall]

You think what you want to think. There are muslims of all stripes just like there are so called christians. If you want to support Obama and cast your vote for him you are free to do that.

These really are frieghtening times- especially when even God's people can't see what is coming upon us

No...what's frightening is when God's people tell lies and propagate gossip and rumors.

It's ok to say that you just don't like the guy. It's ok to say that you disagree with some of his ideas and liberal Christian beliefs, I definitely do. However, don't propagate lies about people. We're supposed to be Christians.

Here's a good reason to vote Obama....I think McCain isn't going to pull it off, the Republicans have an extremely low approval level. So really our choices for President are Obama or....Hillary. Frankly, I'd take Obama over Hillary. It would almost make more sense to vote Obama just to make sure Hillary doesn't get control of the White House.

Oh, and for you guys concerned with universal health care...Hillary has a mandate requiring everyone buy a plan regardless as to if you get the public plan or the private plans that are currently available. Obama doesn't. He has more of an optional system where if you want it and can't afford it there's a national plan you can opt into. Or... you could choose not to have health insurance at all. Obama's policy isn't so expansive.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Brother Hall you are right about being honest about people I sent out a e-mail about this man I received without checking the info,all of which I repented over doing that.

[ChristopherHall]

I'm with you on the bolded part, but Bin Laden was responsible for those attacks and Clinton did nothing about them. That was my point.

Hey, I agree, Clinton may have been able to do more. But he was doing far more than the Bush Administration was in 2001. The Bush Administration reformed our anti-terror measures and replaced agency leadership with cronies. I think I remember reading about Clinton's accomplishments regarding terror in another thread. Maybe Clinton could have done more...but he did far more than Bush/Cheney Incorporated.

[ChristopherHall]

Brother Hall you are right about being honest about people I sent out a e-mail about this man I received without checking the info,all of which I repented over doing that.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for understanding what I'm trying to say. We can not like someone or their policies without lying about them. C'mon guys...we're Christians...not Republicobots.

[AmazingGrace]

Hey, I agree, Clinton may have been able to do more. But he was doing far more than the Bush Administration was in 2001. The Bush Administration reformed our anti-terror measures and replaced agency leadership with cronies. I think I remember reading about Clinton's accomplishments regarding terror in another thread. Maybe Clinton could have done more...but he did far more than Bush/Cheney Incorporated.

Yea he did more...like having affairs and oh shall we name the things... but hey if thats the type of people you approve of you go right on ahead now ya hear!

[ChristopherHall]

I always considered myself a Republican until Bush Jr took office and my whole perception of the party was shattered. I voted for Kerry during the last Presidential election because I didn't want Bush in office for four more years

His inept leadership has lead us to the brink of financial ruin. Our country has lost credibility and long term allies...the world that once admired us now has turned against us. The war in Iraq has continued to kill innocent civilians and members of our military while costing the tax payers billions and billions of dollars.

If it came down to McCain against Hillary or Obama, I would vote for the Democrat. McCain cannot be trusted and he has stated that he would keep us in Iraq for 100 years. We need to pull out of that country and take care of our own people. There wasn't any Al Queda in Iraq until we occupied that country. The Iraqis hate us because we have killed and displaced millions of their countrymen. Just think if another nation came to our country and did the same thing here!

Americans world view has been distorted by Fox, CNN and other corporate news media. My advice....go online and find out what has been going on in the world and particularly in Iraq.

Bro....I was listening to Radio Netherlands a few months ago and I was shocked. There are entire news stories about meetings we've had with nations where those at the table nearly stormed out because we refused to honor treaties and previous international agreements. None of that made it to the media in the United States...none of it. But this program had excerpts from the meetings, statements said in interviews after the meetings, the works. Fox News, CNN, and the like are keeping the American people in the dark about far more than most could ever imagine. I listened to it for nearly a week in Canada. Good God...I was shocked out of my mind. There are other stories where corporations have been indicted in various courts for white collar and extensive environmental crimes. None of it in US media. I looked at my wife and asked her if we lived in America or some second rate dictatorship?

[ChristopherHall]

Yea he did more...like having affairs and oh shall we name the things... but hey if thats the type of people you approve of you go right on ahead now ya hear!

A lot of political leaders have affairs...even King David, a man after God's own heart. Clinton's sin found him out. It's over and done. I'm a little embarrased that so many Republicans capitalized on his sin for political gain. It was the Republicans who pushed to have all the details laid out over television and radio for our children to hear. They should have issued a Congressional denunciation and moved on. We really didn't need to know all that.

Men are fallible, flawed human beings. I'd much rather a President have a private moral issue and some marital problems to work out than a warmongering, war profiteering, insanely spending Administration that is just out of touch with reality.

[StMark]

it's not like you answer the phone anyways :) :happydance JUST KIDDING.

Ok....so we can be friends....who would you have me vote for?? (Aren't you glad I started this thread....I was/am seriously considering voting for Barak)


when did i not call you back?????

vote for ANYONE but Muslim!!!!!You wait till i tell our mutual friend here what you said !!!!

[StMark]

No...what's frightening is when God's people tell lies and propagate gossip and rumors.

It's ok to say that you just don't like the guy. It's ok to say that you disagree with some of his ideas and liberal Christian beliefs, I definitely do. However, don't propagate lies about people. We're supposed to be Christians.

Here's a good reason to vote Obama....I think McCain isn't going to pull it off, the Republicans have an extremely low approval level. So really our choices for President are Obama or....Hillary. Frankly, I'd take Obama over Hillary. It would almost make more sense to vote Obama just to make sure Hillary doesn't get control of the White House.

Oh, and for you guys concerned with universal health care...Hillary has a mandate requiring everyone buy a plan regardless as to if you get the public plan or the private plans that are currently available. Obama doesn't. He has more of an optional system where if you want it and can't afford it there's a national plan you can opt into. Or... you could choose not to have health insurance at all. Obama's policy isn't so expansive.



LOOSE HIM AND LET HIM LIVE!!!!


HEAL HIS MIND LORD!!!!!



IN JESUS MIGHTY NAME WE PRAY!!!!!!!!!!!!


.

[Aquila]

Obama's not Muslim. A leftwinger, sure, but not Muslim. That's all been exposed for the internet rumor that it is. I'm seeing a lot of lying going on here. Where there is lying, there is other sin.

StMark prove that what you say about Obama is true. Present to us your sources.

[Michael The Disciple]

check out the beliefs of the united church of christ

You are right. I forgot about that.

[Aquila]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for understanding what I'm trying to say. We can not like someone or their policies without lying about them. C'mon guys...we're Christians...not Republicobots.

Amen.

[StMark]

Well at least we know who is Pro-Islamic on the forum now

[George]

Some of the quotes were clearly taken out of context. The others mean nothing. His father and step father were Muslims...big deal.

Without sounding callous, did you have a father in your life or were you raised by a single mother? Most children are so greatly influenced by their father and become who their parents are.

[George]

They are in doctrine like a lot of other protestant churches except for the afro-centric theme...where did you see that they perform same sex ceremonies?

Muslims baptize? And if they do, so what if he was baptized as a child. He never hides the fact that his father and step father were muslim and that he went to a muslim school for a short time?

Visit his church website and read about the staff. They have a minister for "same gender loving couples."

[ChristopherHall]

Well at least we know who is Pro-Islamic on the forum now

I'm not Pro-Islamic. I understand that you sincerely don't like Obama. That's fine. I'm just saying you've not offered a strong case for slandering him as a Muslim and you are leaning on internet rumors that have been debunked on Snopes.com and FactCheck.com. C'mon St.Mark, don't say that about me.

[ChristopherHall]

Visit his church website and read about the staff. They have a minister for "same gender loving couples."

Yeah, there's no doubt Obama is very liberal in his views. That's one reason why I'd have second thoughts before voting for him. I just don't see McCain being able to win, nor do I see McCain giving us anything worth while. At least voting for Obama would prevent Hillary from getting into the White House.

[StMark]

I'm not Pro-Islamic. I understand that you sincerely don't like Obama. That's fine. I'm just saying you've not offered a strong case for slandering him as a Muslim and you are leaning on internet rumors that have been debunked on Snopes.com and FactCheck.com. C'mon St.Mark, don't say that about me.



I didn't say any Names!!!!!!!!

[ChristopherHall]

Without sounding callous, did you have a father in your life or were you raised by a single mother? Most children are so greatly influenced by their father and become who their parents are.

I didn't. I know of thousands of kids who never became what their parents were. As a matter of fact, I'd say most everyone I know didn't become what their parents were. lol

[ChristopherHall]

I didn't say any Names!!!!!!!!

You didn't have to bro. I forgive you. I just don't know why you'd say that about me or anyone else who understands that these internet rumors are just propaganda and urban legend. That really hurt bro.

I'd have more (not much more) respect for a man who just said he didn't like Obama because he was black or a man who said Obama was just too liberal than a man who would propagate and argue that proven falsehoods were facts.

[George]

Bro Mark...you're above this kind of thing. To say you disagree with a man's politics is fair. But in all honesty bro...what you're saying about him isn't grounded in fact. It's already been solidly refuted. It was all part of an email rumor. LOL

I agree with Mark. Furthermore, Obama's books, church website, and numerous news clips are not part of an email rumor. Instead of arguing, why don't you read his books and find out for yourself. The guys is bad news.

[ChristopherHall]

I agree with Mark. Furthermore, Obama's books, church website, and numerous news clips are not part of an email rumor. Instead of arguing, why don't you read his books and find out for yourself. The guys is bad news.

Oh, I don't doubt that the guy could be bad news. He's a politician. lol

My issues are that many of the things said about him here are part of email rumors or quoted out of context. If you wrote a few books about controversial subjects I'm sure I could find quotes and excerpts to make you look bad. The man's clearly a Liberal, no doubt about that. The man's proud of his African heritage, that's true and no problem with that really...I'm very proud of my Irish heritage. All I'm asking is that we stick to the facts, not rumor mill internet gossip.

And especially...let's not call anyone Pro-Islamic just because they don't believe the internet rumors. I served 8 years in the Army and am by no means Pro-Islamic. Don't accuse me of something like that, especially if you never wore a uniform and stood in defense of this country. I just think that's an unfair mis-characterization. But hey....if they'll make stuff up about Obama...I don't know why I'm surprised that they're sinking to making up stuff about me and/or others. lol

[ChristopherHall]

I wouldn't care very much about what they called me accept I'm displaying my real name here. I have to keep my rep clean dude. lol Don't call me Pro-Islamic. That's going way too far.

[ChristopherHall]

Love ya bros (that includes you too StMark). I'm going to bed. Later.

[George]

I didn't. I know of thousands of kids who never became what their parents were. As a matter of fact, I'd say most everyone I know didn't become what their parents were. lol

Apparently you never studied stats. It is proven the majority of kids become who their parents are. Alcoholics breed alchoholics, druggies breed druggies, Christians breed Christians, etc. It is a minority of people that do not develop traits, characteristics and beliefs of their parents.

[ChristopherHall]

Apparently you never studied stats. It is proven the majority of kids become who their parents are. Alcoholics breed alchoholics, druggies breed druggies, Christians breed Christians, etc. It is a minority of people that do not develop traits, characteristics and beliefs of their parents.

My dad was a druggie and an alcoholic who beat my mom within an inch of her life while visiting when I was about five years old. I personally don't believe what you're advocating. We have free will to be and do whatever we choose. Much of what you're talking about is due to environmental influences through extended contact leading to social conditioning. And even then kids can grow up and freely choose not to be what their parents were. I know foster kids who were adopted that became good citizens who's real family was riddled with crime, drug, and alcohol abuse. I think this is just another irrational excuse to justify some of the things said about Obama in email rumors.

Dude...just stick to actual policies and positions and admit you don't like him. That's cool. I disagree with him strongly in some areas too. But hey, I'm not going to propagate email rumors about him or try to be their apologist.

[George]

You didn't have to bro.  I forgive you.  I just don't know why you'd say that about me or anyone else who understands that these internet rumors are just propaganda and urban legend.  That really hurt bro.  I'd have more (not much more) respect for a man who just said he didn't like Obama because he was black or a man who said Obama was just too liberal than a man who would propagate and argue that proven falsehoods were facts.I'd have more (not much) respect for you if you just said I am voting for Obama.  You keep screaming Mark and I are speaking falsehoods but you haven't taken the time to read Obama's books and learn about him and his church.  All you talk is snopes and uban legends.  Why don't you visit his church website and see they pledge allegiance to Africa?  Why don't you read his own books and find out his most critical years of development were in a Muslim school? b THAT IS NOT RUMOR OR FALSEHOOD OR STUPID EMAILS.  HE WROTE IT IN HIS OWN BOOK!  You apparently have no idea how third world countries operate.  Your ties to Canada are so close to America you can't comprehend what these other foreign countries are like.  You ought to respect and listen to Sis. Alvear.  The woman knows what she is talking about.

[George]

My dad was a druggie and an alcoholic who beat my mom within an inch of her life while visiting when I was about five years old. I don't believe what you're saying. We have free will to be and do whatever we choose.


You would argue with God! Thank goodness you found a way out of your hell-hole but most in the same situation never find a better way. They become their parents.

[ChristopherHall]

I'd have more (not much) respect for you if you just said I am voting for Obama. You keep screaming Mark and I are speaking falsehoods but you haven't taken the time to read Obama's books and learn about him and his church. All you talk is snopes and uban legends. Why don't you visit his church website and see they pledge allegiance to Africa? Why don't you read his own books and find out his most critical years of development were in a Muslim school? b THAT IS NOT RUMOR OR FALSEHOOD OR STUPID EMAILS. HE WROTE IT IN HIS OWN BOOK! You apparently have no idea how third world countries operate. Your ties to Canada are so close to America you can't comprehend what these other foreign countries are like. You ought to respect and listen to Sis. Alvear. The woman knows what she is talking about.

Ok...so who would you make me vote for?

[ChristopherHall]

I'd have more (not much) respect for you if you just said I am voting for Obama. You keep screaming Mark and I are speaking falsehoods but you haven't taken the time to read Obama's books and learn about him and his church. All you talk is snopes and uban legends. Why don't you visit his church website and see they pledge allegiance to Africa? Why don't you read his own books and find out his most critical years of development were in a Muslim school? b THAT IS NOT RUMOR OR FALSEHOOD OR STUPID EMAILS. HE WROTE IT IN HIS OWN BOOK! You apparently have no idea how third world countries operate. Your ties to Canada are so close to America you can't comprehend what these other foreign countries are like. You ought to respect and listen to Sis. Alvear. The woman knows what she is talking about.

Dude, I've looked at some of the quotes offered and without looking at their context I'll admit I'm going to have to read the book before making a judgment on his writings. I've seen too many people taken WAY out of context to believe just anything someone says about someone's book.

And its not a crime to say a pledge to allegiance to Africa...I sing, "God Save Ireland" and other Pro-Irish songs occasionally throughout the year. It's a heritage thing dude. Hey, here's a video of Obama introducing a Christian chaplain (who prays solidly in Jesus Name) to open the Senate and then Obama leads the Senate in the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC9veEouqqQ

The school he attended wasn't a "Muslim school" from what I've read. It was a public school in a Muslim country that other American kids attended also.

[Praxeas]

The schools he attended weren't specifically "Muslim schools", they were public schools in Muslim countries.
Actually they were Muslim schools because the government there is an Islamc country, not a secular one. However they were NOT Madrassas where Islamic indoctrination goes on.

[Praxeas]

This is completely untrue information. To begin with to be a Muslim you are not baptized or have an initiation. The only requirement to be a Muslim is to confess the Tawhid (Oneness of God). After this they are to believe the basic tenants of Islam (in angels, Tawhid, the Holy Books (which includes the Bible), the Prophets, the resurrection and judgement, and divine fate). They are also to follow the five pillars which include prayer, fasting, charity, pilgrimage, confessing tawhid.

So, if Obama is a Muslim, which he isn't, I can guarantee you that it would have been reported on in the Mainstream media because it would be extremely hard to hide. I mean, it would be fairly hard to hide praying five times a day and going on a Pilgrimage when you are constantly in the media.

If you want to argue against the policy positions of Obama that is fine, but these false accusations of him being Muslim are frankly starting to get old.
This is correct AND all muslims (just to clarify) are expected to do that "pilgrimage" which is a visit to Mecca and to the Kaaba at least once in their lifetime

[George]

It is wrong to pledge allegiance to another country and disregard the country you live in. I don't have a problem with people appreciating their roots, but not to the place it superceeds their allegiance for the country in which they live. They should have greater respect for America or move to Africa. This church is weird! They even require their choir members to wear African clothes! They may be okay for black heritage week, but to require that as the official attire is weird.

I will vote for Hillary before I vote for Obama and I don't like Hillary.

I take as much stock in a youtube clip as any circulating email. All videos can be compromised.

[George]

This is correct AND all muslims (just to clarify) are expected to do that "pilgrimage" which is a visit to Mecca and to the Kaaba at least once in their lifetime

It is desired to make the pilgramage to Mecca but millions never get there. That does not make them any less a Muslim if they don't reach Mecca. There are millions of Muslims in Africa who never leave the bush they live in.

[Praxeas]

Without sounding callous, did you have a father in your life or were you raised by a single mother? Most children are so greatly influenced by their father and become who their parents are.
without sounding condenscending, but did you bother to read anything or did you just cut that part out of context? His first father was OUT of his life by 2...his second by 10.

Yes I had a father...he was an Athiest and I ended up Pentecostal...so your point is what?

BTW His Parents...include a mother....she was NOT Muslim.

[George]

Going to Mecca is the only way to become an El Hadj which is much like getting your local license in the UPC.

[Praxeas]

Yeah, there's no doubt Obama is very liberal in his views. That's one reason why I'd have second thoughts before voting for him. I just don't see McCain being able to win, nor do I see McCain giving us anything worth while. At least voting for Obama would prevent Hillary from getting into the White House.
Exactly. Let facts be facts and let lies be lies. The man is not a muslim. Liberal? Yes. Goes to a liberal church? Yes. Goes to a liberal church that is afro-centric and praises men like Louis Farrakhan? Yes. Democrat? Yes. Deal with the facts.

Any candidate can be NOT a muslim and STILL end up helping Muslims to take over America

[ChristopherHall]

It is wrong to pledge allegiance to another country and disregard the country you live in. I don't have a problem with people appreciating their roots, but not to the place it superceeds their allegiance for the country in which they live.

Please show where Trinity Church's allegiance superceeds that of the US Pledge of Allegiance. (Side note, the Pledge of Allegiance was written by Francis Bellamy, a renown and self proclaimed Christian Socialist).

They should have greater respect for America or move to Africa.

I think they are just giving honor to their homeland bro. Their ancestors were brought here against their will. Allow them to at least honor their homeland.

This church is weird! They even require their choir members to wear African clothes! They may be okay for black heritage week, but to require that as the official attire is weird.

Bro, I think some of what they do i weird too...but I'm not of African heritage either. And hey...we're Apostolic. We have a dress standard too. And lots of people think we're weird too. LOL

I will vote for Hillary before I vote for Obama and I don't like Hillary.

That's fair. I've considered that too. I'm part of a Union and they're solidly for Hillary.

I take as much stock in a youtube clip as any circulating email. All videos can be compromised.

Bro...it wasn't a home video...it was from the Senate. LOL

[Praxeas]

I agree with Mark. Furthermore, Obama's books, church website, and numerous news clips are not part of an email rumor. Instead of arguing, why don't you read his books and find out for yourself. The guys is bad news.
His books, church website and news clips do NOT even give a shred of evidence to StMarks claim that he is a Muslim on a covert mission to bring terrorism to the US.

[George]

without sounding condenscending, but did you bother to read anything or did you just cut that part out of context? His first father was OUT of his life by 2...his second by 10.

Yes I had a father...he was an Athiest and I ended up Pentecostal...so your point is what?

BTW His Parents...include a mother....she was NOT Muslim.

And your formative years are from the ages of 0 to 7. During that time his mother was following Muslim men whereever they led her and the kid.

You are fortunate to have found God out of your upbringing. Not many athiests find salvation.

[Praxeas]

Apparently you never studied stats. It is proven the majority of kids become who their parents are. Alcoholics breed alchoholics, druggies breed druggies, Christians breed Christians, etc. It is a minority of people that do not develop traits, characteristics and beliefs of their parents.
Ok, so Obama is an Atheist Muslim? good grief. He was raised by his white American grandparents

[Praxeas]

And your formative years are from the ages of 0 to 7. During that time his mother was following Muslim men whereever they led her and the kid.

You are fortunate to have found God out of your upbringing. Not many athiests find salvation.
Well there you go folks. This man has proven that Obama is a closet Muslim disguised as a Liberal Christian......I don't think so.

How many kids from 0-7 understand religion that well? Personality traits maybe, but not religion.

[ChristopherHall]

Exactly. Let facts be facts and let lies be lies. The man is not a muslim. Liberal? Yes. Goes to a liberal church? Yes. Goes to a liberal church that is afro-centric and praises men like Louis Farrakhan? Yes. Democrat? Yes. Deal with the facts.

I'd agree with most of what you said. But I would caution against saying they praise Louis Farrakhan. For example, we might praise George Washington, but we don't advocate slavery. We might even honor General Lee's contributions to Southern Culture but we don't advocate Slavery. I'm sure they honor Farrakhan as a black social leader who was able to solidify a black social movement for changes they felt would benefit them as black people. That doesn't mean they believe everything about Farrakhan is A-OK.

Any candidate can be NOT a muslim and STILL end up helping Muslims to take over America

True...look at George Bush. If Obama were some secret Muslim plant, it would be Bush's ineptitude that caused the American people to vote for a Democrat over a Republican. LOL

[George]

Ok...so who would you make me vote for?

I wouldn't make you do anything.

[StMark]

It is wrong to pledge allegiance to another country and disregard the country you live in. I don't have a problem with people appreciating their roots, but not to the place it superceeds their allegiance for the country in which they live. They should have greater respect for America or move to Africa. This church is weird! They even require their choir members to wear African clothes! They may be okay for black heritage week, but to require that as the official attire is weird.

I will vote for Hillary before I vote for Obama and I don't like Hillary.

I take as much stock in a youtube clip as any circulating email. All videos can be compromised.



Obama will pledge to Africa but wont even pledge allegiance to America.

I guess Chris is okay with this ???

[ChristopherHall]

Praxeas, these guys are irrational. I'm absolutely beside myself.

[Praxeas]

I'd have more (not much) respect for you if you just said I am voting for Obama. You keep screaming Mark and I are speaking falsehoods but you haven't taken the time to read Obama's books and learn about him and his church. All you talk is snopes and uban legends. Why don't you visit his church website and see they pledge allegiance to Africa? Why don't you read his own books and find out his most critical years of development were in a Muslim school? b THAT IS NOT RUMOR OR FALSEHOOD OR STUPID EMAILS. HE WROTE IT IN HIS OWN BOOK! You apparently have no idea how third world countries operate. Your ties to Canada are so close to America you can't comprehend what these other foreign countries are like. You ought to respect and listen to Sis. Alvear. The woman knows what she is talking about.
He did not spend 0-7 in Muslim schools nor in particular the kind YOU have in mind like in Pakistan. They were Public schools not Madrassas. They only thing that made them "muslim" was that they were public schools in muslim countries. His mother was an Atheist....during that time he ALSO went to a Catholic school....so what do we have now? A Catholic Muslim that has rejected the existence of God?????

[ChristopherHall]

Obama will pledge to Africa but wont even pledge allegiance to America.

I guess Chris is okay with this ???

I provided a video where Obama leads the entire Senate in the Pledge of Allegiance to America. And by the way...the Pledge was written by an American Christian Socialist, Francis Bellamy.

Here's the video again...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC9veEouqqQ

[Praxeas]

I'd agree with most of what you said. But I would caution against saying they praise Louis Farrakhan. For example, we might praise George Washington, but we don't advocate slavery. We might even honor General Lee's contributions to Southern Culture but we don't advocate Slavery. I'm sure they honor Farrakhan as a black social leader who was able to solidify a black social movement for changes they felt would benefit them as black people. That doesn't mean they believe everything about Farrakhan is A-OK.



True...look at George Bush. If Obama were some secret Muslim plant, it would be Bush's ineptitude that caused the American people to vote for a Democrat over a Republican. LOL
They did praise LF. The church Magazine had him on the front cover as a great man and gave him an award.

Obama though has tried to distance himself from LF

[StMark]

You didn't have to bro. I forgive you. I just don't know why you'd say that about me or anyone else who understands that these internet rumors are just propaganda and urban legend. That really hurt bro.

I'd have more (not much more) respect for a man who just said he didn't like Obama because he was black or a man who said Obama was just too liberal than a man who would propagate and argue that proven falsehoods were facts.

It's not fair of you to bring race into this. to imply that I don't like him because he is Balck is a cheap shot and you talk about ME not having Proof??? Do you really think Obama is going to admit to America what he REALLY is and expect to get the presidency??? I don't think you understnad how slick politicians really are but carry on.

[Praxeas]

I provided a video where Obama leads the entire Senate in the Pledge of Allegiance to America. And by the way...the Pledge was written by an American Christian Socialist, Francis Bellamy.
They didn't see you post it...they see "blah blah blah blah Obama, blah blah blah blah"

In other words they just read and see what they want and ignore facts :stirpot

[Praxeas]

It's not fair of you to bring race into this. to imply that I don't like him because he is Balck is a cheap shot and you talk about ME not having Proof??? Do you really think Obama is going to admit to America what he REALLY is and expect to get the presidency??? I don't think you understnad how slick politicians really are but carry on.
who were you referring to as pro-Islamic?

[StMark]

I provided a video where Obama leads the entire Senate in the Pledge of Allegiance to America. And by the way...the Pledge was written by an American Christian Socialist, Francis Bellamy.


I don't believe that! our pledge of Allegiance is godly

If that's the case i suppose you wont pledge to the flag either???

how in the world did you get in the military with this kind of thinking Chris??? someone's been messing with your head bruh

[George]

Ok, so Obama is an Atheist Muslim? good grief. He was raised by his white American grandparents

That is your words - not mine.

[ChristopherHall]

It's not fair of you to bring race into this. to imply that I don't like him because he is Balck is a cheap shot and you talk about ME not having Proof??? Do you really think Obama is going to admit to America what he REALLY is and expect to get the presidency??? I don't think you understnad how slick politicians really are but carry on.

Bro...I didn't say names. LOL No really I just thew that in there. I KNOW you're not a racist bro. God bless yer pea pickin' heart. lol

[ChristopherHall]

I provided a video where Obama leads the entire Senate in the Pledge of Allegiance to America. And by the way...the Pledge was written by an American Christian Socialist, Francis Bellamy.


I don't believe that! our pledge of Allegiance is godly

If that's the case i suppose you wont pledge to the flag either???

how in the world did you get in the military with this kind of thinking Chris??? someone's been messing with your head bruh

Research it dude...

The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer

Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer



Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

[ChristopherHall]

I provided a video where Obama leads the entire Senate in the Pledge of Allegiance to America. And by the way...the Pledge was written by an American Christian Socialist, Francis Bellamy.


I don't believe that! our pledge of Allegiance is godly

If that's the case i suppose you wont pledge to the flag either???

how in the world did you get in the military with this kind of thinking Chris??? someone's been messing with your head bruh

My question is...would you repeat a Pledge of Allegiance written and inspired by a Socialist? LOL

[Praxeas]

That is your words - not mine.
No your "logic" was that what their parents are statistically they become in part of a discussion to prove or disprove Obama is a Muslim.

His mother was Atheist. His step-father a Muslim. So what does that make him?

[ChristopherHall]

Some folks don't know their American history.

[StMark]

[QUOTE=StMark;386042]

My question is...would you repeat a Pledge of Allegiance written and inspired by a Socialist? LOL


many of the great reformers and revivalist embraced the oneness and baptized in Jesus Name. biased historians changed such facts with a slant bent towards their own views. Thus i believe could have well happned here

[George]

Please show where Trinity Church's allegiance superceeds that of the US Pledge of Allegiance.*** (Side note, the Pledge of Allegiance was written by Francis Bellamy, a renown and self proclaimed Christian Socialist).********* I think they are just giving honor to their homeland bro.*** Their ancestors were brought here against their will.*** Allow them to at least honor their homeland.*** Bro, I think some of what they do i weird too...but I'm not of African heritage either.*** And hey...we're Apostolic.*** We have a dress standard too.*** And lots of people think we're weird too.*** LOL*** That's fair. I've considered that too.*** I'm part of a Union and they're solidly for Hillary.*** Bro...it wasn't a home video...it was from the Senate.*** LOLShow me where his church gives any allegiance to America?Why don't you start wearing kilts all the time?*** Our church standards do not promote another country above the one we live in.You bring your own falsehoods trying to decieve.*** You think that is a senate video but it was not posted by the senate.*** It could have been altered.*** I'm not saying it was, but it doesn't hold weight with me.I am finished conversing with you.*** It is apparent you greatly desire the last word so have at it.*** I WILL NOT VOTE FOR OBAMA!

[StMark]

Show me where his church gives any allegiance to America?Why don't you start wearing kilts all the time?*** Our church standards do not promote another country above the one we live in.You bring your own falsehoods trying to decieve.*** You think that is a senate video but it was not posted by the senate.*** It could have been altered.*** I'm not saying it was, but it doesn't hold weight with me.I am finished conversing with you.*** It is apparent you greatly desire the last word so have at it.*** I WILL NOT VOTE FOR OBAMA!


I was listening to Sean Hannity show recently and he pointed out several hostile anti american anti white comments that Obama's pastor has made. he had it one tape.

[Praxeas]

I was listening to Sean Hannity show recently and he pointed out several hostile anti american anti white comments that Obama's pastor has made. he had it one tape.
And again, Mark that does not prove Obama is a Muslim. It might prove anti-americanism by the pastor or even anti-white agendas etc etc, be that as it may. Let fact be fact and lies be lies. There is no evidence Obama is a Muslim. Let the facts speak and base your decisions on facts.

[George]

No your "logic" was that what their parents are statistically they become in part of a discussion to prove or disprove Obama is a Muslim.

His mother was Atheist. His step-father a Muslim. So what does that make him?

During his formative years he was under his father's influence more than his mother because she was following the father. Whether he was in a radical Muslim school or ordinary Muslim school, they all indoctrinate the kids with the Muslim doctrine which happens to hate America.

[Praxeas]

During his formative years he was under his father's influence more than his mother because she was following the father. Whether he was in a radical Muslim school or ordinary Muslim school, they all indoctrinate the kids with the Muslim doctrine which happens to hate America.
She wasn't following the father. She was an Atheist, not a Muslim. Had she converted that would have said something to the young man. She did not. He was NOT in a Muslim school. You don't get it. It was NOT a Muslim school in the sense YOU are trying to paint it. It was a public school in a Muslim nation.

AND He did NOT go there all the time during those few years but to Catholic schools too...so what is he now? Catholic? Muslim? Athiest? My point is you have proven nothing in the way of trying to show that the man is a Muslim when he says he is not but is a Christian.

And you DOn'T know that he was indoctrinates AND this was a LONG LONG time ago before much of the Muslim world hated America as much as it does now

[George]

I was listening to Sean Hannity show recently and he pointed out several hostile anti american anti white comments that Obama's pastor has made. he had it one tape.

You are right but you couldn't convince ChristopherHall of that. Obama's church is so controversial, he has tried to distance himself from the church for the sake of politics. In fact, his pastor was supposed to be on a platform with him at a big event and they cancelled his pastor coming because of how controversial his church is. OBAMA IS NO GOOD!!!!!!!! I can't understand why some people think because there was a false email circulating they must get so defensive and protective of Obama without finding out the facts.

[George]

And again, Mark that does not prove Obama is a Muslim. It might prove anti-americanism by the pastor or even anti-white agendas etc etc, be that as it may. Let fact be fact and lies be lies. There is no evidence Obama is a Muslim. Let the facts speak and base your decisions on facts.BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER.

[StMark]

You are right but you couldn't convince ChristopherHall of that. Obama's church is so controversial, he has tried to distance himself from the church for the sake of politics. In fact, his pastor was supposed to be on a platform with him at a big event and they cancelled his pastor coming because of how controversial his church is. OBAMA IS NO GOOD!!!!!!!! I can't understand why some people think because there was a false email circulating they must get so defensive and protective of Obama without finding out the facts.


We'll just have let Chris,Prax and the rest be turned over to a reprobate mind. let 'em chase after the anti american pro muslim crowd

[George]

She wasn't following the father. She was an Atheist, not a Muslim. Had she converted that would have said something to the young man. She did not. He was NOT in a Muslim school. You don't get it. It was NOT a Muslim school in the sense YOU are trying to paint it. It was a public school in a Muslim nation.

AND He did NOT go there all the time during those few years but to Catholic schools too...so what is he now? Catholic? Muslim? Athiest? My point is you have proven nothing in the way of trying to show that the man is a Muslim when he says he is not but is a Christian.

And you DOn'T know that he was indoctrinates AND this was a LONG LONG time ago before much of the Muslim world hated America as much as it does now

No, you don't get it. I have relatives who lived in a Muslim country. ALL public schools indoctrinate the Muslim belief. They do not separate church and state as America does. Give me a break!!!!! Muslims have hated Jews and Americans since the beginning of time.
Obama's mother was following Obama's father in the sense of moving to a Muslim country and allowing her son to attend the Muslim school. I truly question his Christianity, too. From the looks of his church, they might be funding terrorism.

[Praxeas]

BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER.
Everything's better with Blue Bonnet on it.

[Praxeas]

No, you don't get it. I have relatives who lived in a Muslim country. ALL public schools indoctrinate the Muslim belief. They do not separate church and state as America does. Give me a break!!!!! Muslims have hated Jews and Americans since the beginning of time.
Obama's mother was following Obama's father in the sense of moving to a Muslim country and allowing her son to attend the Muslim school. I truly question his Christianity, too. From the looks of his church, they might be funding terrorism.
Muslims have hated Jews and Americans since the beginning of time? lol....ok you are clearly out of your league....and that was being kind

[chosenbyone]

No, you don't get it. I have relatives who lived in a Muslim country. ALL public schools indoctrinate the Muslim belief. They do not separate church and state as America does. Give me a break!!!!! Muslims have hated Jews and Americans since the beginning of time.
Obama's mother was following Obama's father in the sense of moving to a Muslim country and allowing her son to attend the Muslim school. I truly question his Christianity, too. From the looks of his church, they might be funding terrorism.

The last sentence above showed that you would stoop to any level in order to discredit Obama. Perhaps, you should take the time to investigate the rumors and lies about Obama before you repeat them over and over again.

The following was from the Collegiate Times:

Letter: Keep religion and race out of the voting booth

Letter to the editorThursday, January 31; 12:00 AM

It is fitting that Virginia Tech held its eleventh Diversity Summit in the same week that Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) may have made history with his landslide victory in the South Carolina Democratic primary.

In these times it is not uncommon for members of the majority to fear diversity because it often comes with change. This fear, however, has been amplified by Senator Obama's now more public success as he moves himself just one step closer to the White House. Unfortunately that fear has re-hashed some old and completely false accusations about the Senator.

Several months ago, Fox News and Bill O'Reilly reported that Barack Obama attended a "radical Muslim" school while he lived in Indonesia. Not only did that school not exist, but every other news network reported that Sen. Obama's school was just a regular public school down the street from the U.S. Ambassador's office. The smear campaign continues to allege that Sen. Obama refused to be sworn in to his seat as Senator on the Holy Bible, instead using a Koran. This is also false. Barack Obama has never been any religion other than Christian and speaks about his faith quite frequently. Besides, what's wrong with being Muslim, anyway?

With Obama's recent success, I am beginning to see this terrible rumor resurface and spread around Virginia Tech's campus. Think about it, how could a Muslim extremist been elected to the U.S. Senate? Please don't let the nastiness of politics cloud your judgment on Virginia's primary day (Feb. 12). Vote for the right man or woman based on platform; not skin color, religion or name.

[DividedThigh]

ok all of this is background noise imho, i cant vote for a candidate that agrees with abortion and wants to raise taxes, cant and wont, repub or dem dont matter, cant do it, dt:happydance

[Scott Hutchinson]

I usually vote Republican,I'll have to pick the lesser of the evils when I go vote,I agree in premise with DT.

[Aquila]

There are Christians who believe that while the Democrats are prochoice, their policies will reduce the number of abortions in the US and save lives. The Republicans say they’re prolife but unless they can reduce the number of abortions in the US it’s just empty rhetoric. The Democrats at least are looking into abortion reduction legislation, the Republicans aren’t doing a dang thang. They’re all talk and no action and they are only out to trick the simple minded. Worse yet, they dont really plan to do anything significant about abortion at all. Some Christians know this and see that the Democrats may indeed do more to reduce the number of abortions even though they are prochoice. Their measures work. Other countries do what the Democrats are doing and have reduced the number of abortions as much as two thirds. That’s a far better track record than the American Republicans.

As others have already pointed out, the taxes are going to have to be raised to pay for the Republican deficit. And if they raise my taxes to reduce my premiums thereby allowing me to bring home more of my own money, that’s ok with me. I worked for it, why should I pay twice the amount to some corporation that’s only going to steadily increase my premiums until I can’t afford it for me and my family?

Here’s the deal, I’ll have to use my tithe money to pay for my family’s health insurance! That’s the only way I’ll be able to afford it if it goes much higher. The way I figure it, if they continue to raise premiums until I have to use my tithe money to pay for it, their robbing me, I’m not robbing God. And the church sure isn’t going to help my family pay for our medical bills. I just want to raise a healthy family. Christians just aint Christian anymore. They’re just Republicans who don’t care if my son needs surgeries and theres no way we can afford it without health insurance. A Democrat in the WH who can reduce my medical costs will not only help my son, but they will also help my church because I can then give more. These insurance premiums are eating us alive and NOT A SINGLE CHRISTIAN CARES.

And it’s not fair that my premiums keep rising because people are uninsured and paying nothing toward their own health care. I support a universal system where everyone at least pays something into the system thereby reducing my family’s costs. I’m just trying to raise a family here.

[DividedThigh]

i vote that the dems and the repubs get there hands out of my back pocket and let me make my own mind up about my health care, lol,dt:happydance

[Aquila]

i vote that the dems and the repubs get there hands out of my back pocket and let me make my own mind up about my health care, lol,dt:happydance

Put your money where your words are. If you're employer gives you health insurance opt out and buy your own, paying the full amount without employer contributions.

[DividedThigh]

Put your money where your words are. If you're employer gives you health insurance opt out and buy your own, paying the full amount without employer contributions.

hey dude if i dont want your boys telling me what to do what makes you think i care what you think, get a life, not mine, lol,dt:tvhappy

[Bullwinkle]

Obama dosen't seem to think he's a Muslim. More Republican/right wing Christian fairy tales.
Here is his story of faith:
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/
And I speak with some experience on this matter. I was not raised in a particularly religious household, as undoubtedly many in the audience were. My father, who returned to Kenya when I was just two, was born Muslim but as an adult became an atheist. My mother, whose parents were non-practicing Baptists and Methodists, was probably one of the most spiritual and kindest people I've ever known, but grew up with a healthy skepticism of organized religion herself. As a consequence, so did I.

It wasn't until after college, when I went to Chicago to work as a community organizer for a group of Christian churches, that I confronted my own spiritual dilemma.

I was working with churches, and the Christians who I worked with recognized themselves in me. They saw that I knew their Book and that I shared their values and sang their songs. But they sensed that a part of me that remained removed, detached, that I was an observer in their midst.

And in time, I came to realize that something was missing as well -- that without a vessel for my beliefs, without a commitment to a particular community of faith, at some level I would always remain apart, and alone.

And if it weren't for the particular attributes of the historically black church, I may have accepted this fate. But as the months passed in Chicago, I found myself drawn - not just to work with the church, but to be in the church.

For one thing, I believed and still believe in the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change, a power made real by some of the leaders here today. Because of its past, the black church understands in an intimate way the Biblical call to feed the hungry and cloth the naked and challenge powers and principalities. And in its historical struggles for freedom and the rights of man, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death, but rather as an active, palpable agent in the world. As a source of hope.

And perhaps it was out of this intimate knowledge of hardship -- the grounding of faith in struggle -- that the church offered me a second insight, one that I think is important to emphasize today.

Faith doesn't mean that you don't have doubts.

You need to come to church in the first place precisely because you are first of this world, not apart from it. You need to embrace Christ precisely because you have sins to wash away - because you are human and need an ally in this difficult journey.

It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street in the Southside of Chicago one day and affirm my Christian faith. It came about as a choice, and not an epiphany. I didn't fall out in church. The questions I had didn't magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt that I heard God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth.

[Aquila]

hey dude if i dont want your boys telling me what to do what makes you think i care what you think, get a life, not mine, lol,dt:tvhappy

All talk, no action. lol

[DividedThigh]

All talk, no action. lol

i think this is a forum for discussion, not being nosey, try minding your own business dude, if you like hilary or obama it is a free country, but my house and life is off limits to you and all the dems, lol,dt:tvhappy

[Aquila]

i think this is a forum for discussion, not being nosey, try minding your own business dude, if you like hilary or obama it is a free country, but my house and life is off limits to you and all the dems, lol,dt:tvhappy

You like paying those extra high premiums? He, wouldn't you like to bring home more money in pocket, you worked for it, why do you just want to give it away to some corporation that has no intentions in negotiating your prices down?

[DividedThigh]

You like paying those extra high premiums? He, wouldn't you like to bring home more money in pocket, you worked for it, why do you just want to give it away to some corporation that has no intentions in negotiating your prices down?

you obviously dont know me or anything about me, or you wouldnt be runnin off at the mouth, i dotn pay more than i have to for anything, dt

[Aquila]

Do you have health insurance DT? Or are you one of those uninsured people that's causing my premiums to skyrocket?

Don't feel too bad, if that's the case I might be in your shoes next year.

[Weary Pilgrim]

i think this is a forum for discussion, not being nosey, try minding your own business dude, if you like hilary or obama it is a free country, but my house and life is off limits to you and all the dems, lol,dt:tvhappy


DT,You are wasting precious time dealing with people whose minds are warped and twisted.How such people can call themselves Apostolics is simply a mystery.

In Psalms 1 it says"Blessed is the man who walketh not in the councel of the ungodly"......

[DividedThigh]

Do you have health insurance DT? Or are you one of those uninsured people that's causing my premiums to skyrocket?

that s funny, of coure i have insurance, and if anybody is making somebodys taxes go up it aint me, you crack me up, i support my family and least 5 more with the taxes i pay, lol

[Aquila]

that s funny, of coure i have insurance, and if anybody is making somebodys taxes go up it aint me, you crack me up, i support my family and least 5 more with the taxes i pay, lol

How much is your monthly premium?

[DividedThigh]

DT,You are wasting precious time dealing with people whose minds are warped and twisted.How such people can call themselves Apostolics is simply a mystery.

In Psalms 1 it says"Blessed is the man who walketh not in the councel of the ungodly"......

you are right bro, i dont get it either, but i never will i aint twisted, lol,dt:happydance

[DividedThigh]

How much is your monthly premium?

i dont think you are listening, try nunyo, does that compute, lol

[Aquila]

Would you like to pay less and keep more of your own money?

[DividedThigh]

Would you like to pay less and keep more of your own money?

i have noticed that people are nosey, have you, lol,dt

[Aquila]

DT,You are wasting precious time dealing with people whose minds are warped and twisted.How such people can call themselves Apostolics is simply a mystery.

In Psalms 1 it says"Blessed is the man who walketh not in the councel of the ungodly"......

One doesn’t need to espouse a certain political view to be an Apostolic. So now the requirement is Acts 2:38 and a Republican membership card! LOL

I know guys who are liberal in their politics, but very conservative in their personal religious faith.

[Aquila]

i have noticed that people are nosey, have you, lol,dt

I just want to be able to afford health insurance for my family.

[DividedThigh]

I just want to be able to afford health insurance for my family.

me too, and i want all politicians to quit messing with my money , raising taxes and such, lol,dt:tvhappy

[Aquila]

I know a preacher who pays nearly $850 a month for health insurance for his family. A universal health insurance plan would lower his costs significantly. That means a man of God has more to sustain him and his family. Most likely any man of God will put that money into the Kingdom of God. Universal health insurance would even help ministers and churches.

[HeavenlyOne]

Hey, I agree, Clinton may have been able to do more. But he was doing far more than the Bush Administration was in 2001. The Bush Administration reformed our anti-terror measures and replaced agency leadership with cronies. I think I remember reading about Clinton's accomplishments regarding terror in another thread. Maybe Clinton could have done more...but he did far more than Bush/Cheney Incorporated.

It may seem that way, but we haven't had terroist problems in our embassies or on our bases, have we?

Bush was stonewalled in 2001, just taking over the mess that Clinton left in his wake. He'd been in office a whole 9 months when 9-11 happened. With everything else needing to be taken care of required of a president of a country, what else did we expect?

Clinton was in office for 8 years. He had plenty of time to get security measures in order to prevent 9-11...something that was in the making while he was yet in office.

Instead, he was too busy with cigars and women in blue dresses....but I won't go there...

And let's not forget those who died while he was in office that might have exposed a lot of things that we may never know the truth about........

I mean, I had never heard of someone dying from an airplane crash with a bullet in their head, have you?

Or someone committing suicide while his secret papers mysteriously disappear with his last breath?

To me, having another Clinton in office will be detrimental to our nation. We barely survived the first one.

[HeavenlyOne]

Apparently you never studied stats. It is proven the majority of kids become who their parents are. Alcoholics breed alchoholics, druggies breed druggies, Christians breed Christians, etc. It is a minority of people that do not develop traits, characteristics and beliefs of their parents.

While what you say is true somewhat, the stats would also show a stability in our world, not a decrease in morality and increase in crime.

If bad begats bad, the same should be said of the good. But we aren't seeing that.

[DividedThigh]

It may seem that way, but we haven't had terroist problems in our embassies or on our bases, have we?

Bush was stonewalled in 2001, just taking over the mess that Clinton left in his wake. He'd been in office a whole 9 months when 9-11 happened. With everything else needing to be taken care of required of a president of a country, what else did we expect?

Clinton was in office for 8 years. He had plenty of time to get security measures in order to prevent 9-11...something that was in the making while he was yet in office.

Instead, he was too busy with cigars and women in blue dresses....but I won't go there...

And let's not forget those who died while he was in office that might have exposed a lot of things that we may never know the truth about........

I mean, I had never heard of someone dying from an airplane crash with a bullet in their head, have you?

Or someone committing suicide while his secret papers mysteriously disappear with his last breath?

To me, having another Clinton in office will be detrimental to our nation. We barely survived the first one.

interesting HO, but remember these are clinton people you are talkin to, truth dont matter much, lol,dt:stirpot

[HeavenlyOne]

I'd have more (not much) respect for you if you just said I am voting for Obama.*** You keep screaming Mark and I are speaking falsehoods but you haven't taken the time to read Obama's books and learn about him and his church.*** All you talk is snopes and uban legends.*** Why don't you visit his church website and see they pledge allegiance to Africa?*** Why don't you read his own books and find out his most critical years of development were in a Muslim school? b THAT IS NOT RUMOR OR FALSEHOOD OR STUPID EMAILS.*** HE WROTE IT IN HIS OWN BOOK!*** You apparently have no idea how third world countries operate.*** Your ties to Canada are so close to America you can't comprehend what these other foreign countries are like.*** You ought to respect and listen to Sis. Alvear.*** The woman knows what she is talking about.

Pledging allegiance to Africa doesn't make one Muslim anymore than pledging allegiance to China makes one Buddhist.

And it wasn't a Muslim school, but a public school where Muslim children attended. That doesn't make it a Muslim school anymore than a school where Catholics attend makes it a Catholic school. And he left there when he was ten. Probably doesn't even remember much about it.

And if his church was Muslim in nature, they wouldn't have a same sex minister!!!

[HeavenlyOne]

It is wrong to pledge allegiance to another country and disregard the country you live in. I don't have a problem with people appreciating their roots, but not to the place it superceeds their allegiance for the country in which they live. They should have greater respect for America or move to Africa. This church is weird! They even require their choir members to wear African clothes! They may be okay for black heritage week, but to require that as the official attire is weird.

I will vote for Hillary before I vote for Obama and I don't like Hillary.

I take as much stock in a youtube clip as any circulating email. All videos can be compromised.

But the UPC can mandate specific clothing for their women to wear at all times and that's ok........ROFL!!!!

[Ferd]

Hey, I agree, Clinton may have been able to do more. But he was doing far more than the Bush Administration was in 2001. The Bush Administration reformed our anti-terror measures and replaced agency leadership with cronies. I think I remember reading about Clinton's accomplishments regarding terror in another thread. Maybe Clinton could have done more...but he did far more than Bush/Cheney Incorporated.

This is a flat out lie.

I suspect you are simply repeating something you got in an email from somewhere, (I get junk like that from Democrats.com on a regular basis)

the FACT is, under Bill Clinton there was a rule change that prevented the CIA and FBI from communicating. That blocked information that the CIA had on some of the 9/11 hijackers from reaching the FBI.

When the Bush admin changed that rule in the wake of 9/11, dems still cried about it.

[HeavenlyOne]

And your formative years are from the ages of 0 to 7. During that time his mother was following Muslim men whereever they led her and the kid.

You are fortunate to have found God out of your upbringing. Not many athiests find salvation.

Then our churches should be booming with adults who were brought to Sunday School as children during those ages but quit when they were older!!!

Most people don't remember much about their life during those ages.

[HeavenlyOne]

He did not spend 0-7 in Muslim schools nor in particular the kind YOU have in mind like in Pakistan. They were Public schools not Madrassas. They only thing that made them "muslim" was that they were public schools in muslim countries. His mother was an Atheist....during that time he ALSO went to a Catholic school....so what do we have now? A Catholic Muslim that has rejected the existence of God?????

ROFL!

Makes sense to me!!

[HeavenlyOne]

It's not fair of you to bring race into this. to imply that I don't like him because he is Balck is a cheap shot and you talk about ME not having Proof??? Do you really think Obama is going to admit to America what he REALLY is and expect to get the presidency??? I don't think you understnad how slick politicians really are but carry on.

Actually, Obama is just as much white as he is black. ;)

[DividedThigh]

This is a flat out lie.

I suspect you are simply repeating something you got in an email from somewhere, (I get junk like that from Democrats.com on a regular basis)

the FACT is, under Bill Clinton there was a rule change that prevented the CIA and FBI from communicating. That blocked information that the CIA had on some of the 9/11 hijackers from reaching the FBI.

When the Bush admin changed that rule in the wake of 9/11, dems still cried about it.

go get em ferd, of course that is a lie, he must have read richard clarkes book and swallowed all that garbage, lol,dt

[HeavenlyOne]

I was listening to Sean Hannity show recently and he pointed out several hostile anti american anti white comments that Obama's pastor has made. he had it one tape.

And again I'll repeat...

Obama is as white as he is black!!!

[Nahum]

Any way you look at it, we're in trouble.

I can't imagine worse choices than the ones we currently have.

IMO, GW Bush is the worst Republican president in our history. He is the very emblem of ineptitude and corporate greed. He is just as much a globalist as Obama or Hillary could ever hope to be. He never followed through on the Marriage Ammendment. In fact, he didn't even really try. He just paid lip service so as to rile up the evangelicals.

More and more, I believe we evangelicals are to the Republicans what the African-American community is to the Democrats. We are the faithful who believe the lies, hype and promises of a political party that never follows through.

Think of it. We had the house, the senate and the presidency, and absolutely nothing was accomplished.

I cannot vote for Hillary or Obama.

But I cannot vote for McCain either.

To me, there is no difference between the three. They are cut from the same pattern.

It's time to trust God - not party politics.

[BrotherEastman]

Any way you look at it, we're in trouble.

I can't imagine worse choices than the ones we currently have.

IMO, GW Bush is the worst Republican president in our history. He is the very emblem of ineptitude and corporate greed. He is just as much a globalist as Obama or Hillary could ever hope to be. He never followed through on the Marriage Ammendment. In fact, he didn't even really try. He just paid lip service so as to rile up the evangelicals.

More and more, I believe we evangelicals are to the Republicans what the African-American community is to the Democrats. We are the faithful who believe the lies, hype and promises of a political party that never follows through.

Think of it. We had the house, the senate and the presidency, and absolutely nothing was accomplished.

I cannot vote for Hillary or Obama.

But I cannot vote for McCain either.

To me, there is no difference between the three. They are cut from the same pattern.

It's time to trust God - not party politics.
Nicely said. I concur with the assessment that has been stated.

[DividedThigh]

i sure wish there were better choices, my man fred got out, and left me in a quandry, lol,dt

[HeavenlyOne]

Any way you look at it, we're in trouble.

I can't imagine worse choices than the ones we currently have.

IMO, GW Bush is the worst Republican president in our history. He is the very emblem of ineptitude and corporate greed. He is just as much a globalist as Obama or Hillary could ever hope to be. He never followed through on the Marriage Ammendment. In fact, he didn't even really try. He just paid lip service so as to rile up the evangelicals.

More and more, I believe we evangelicals are to the Republicans what the African-American community is to the Democrats. We are the faithful who believe the lies, hype and promises of a political party that never follows through.

Think of it. We had the house, the senate and the presidency, and absolutely nothing was accomplished.

I cannot vote for Hillary or Obama.

But I cannot vote for McCain either.

To me, there is no difference between the three. They are cut from the same pattern.

It's time to trust God - not party politics.


Sadly, I have to agree with you. It's not sad that we agree, but that we agree on this issue as it's so true.

I'm disappointed in our options for president. I may do as others have done and relocate to another country for 4-8 years....

[Pressing-On]

i sure wish there were better choices, my man fred got out, and left me in a quandry, lol,dt

Frankly, and JMHO - besides a few differences everyone running on the Republican ticket were all qualified. We had more experience in that whole set of men than we could deal with.

For the pot! :stirpot

[BrotherEastman]

Anybody tired of politics yet?!?!? 300,000,000 Americans and who do we have to vote for?

[ReformedDave]

Thing that amazes me is that more people don't think deeply about an issue such as this. They almost never ask what are the presuppositions of a candidate's philosophy, what are the logical ends if it is carried out, is it a consistent non-arbitrary position, and what does God's word have to say on the matter.

BTW, There is not really much substantive difference between the mainstream of both majority parties.

[Pressing-On]

Anybody tired of politics yet?!?!? 300,000,000 Americans and who do we have to vote for?

NO! Religion and Politics! It makes the world go round - and round and round.

:happydance

[DividedThigh]

Frankly, and JMHO - besides a few differences everyone running on the Republican ticket were all qualified. We had more experience in that whole set of men than we could deal with.

For the pot! :stirpot

i agree, but think huckachuck is a fake, a populist, i dont trust him, mccain is ok but there are some things he does i dont like, lol, i guess nobody is perfect, but i can tell you i wont vote for a dem, not, lol,dt

[Nahum]

1. GW BUSH did nothing to curb the mass of illegals entering our country through the Mexican-American border. Tough on terror? Please....he can't even secure our own border. How is he ever gonna stop terrorism? Big government is swelling due to the invasion of illegals who are crashing the coffers of critical social services meant for the neediest American citizens. That is so UN-conservative.

2. Our economy is down the tubes.

Why is that?

It's because the corporations that Mr. Bush, and his Republican cronies, protect have sold our American jobs to the lowest bidder. Don't get me wrong here, the Democrats would have done the same thing. The difference is, Republicans *supposedly* are for American jobs.

To which I say "whatever."

[Pressing-On]

i agree, but think huckachuck is a fake, a populist, i dont trust him, mccain is ok but there are some things he does i dont like, lol, i guess nobody is perfect, but i can tell you i wont vote for a dem, not, lol,dt

My husband says that Huckabee is a goober. lol

What is a goober? :toofunny

[Aquila]

This is a flat out lie.

I suspect you are simply repeating something you got in an email from somewhere, (I get junk like that from Democrats.com on a regular basis)

the FACT is, under Bill Clinton there was a rule change that prevented the CIA and FBI from communicating. That blocked information that the CIA had on some of the 9/11 hijackers from reaching the FBI.

When the Bush admin changed that rule in the wake of 9/11, dems still cried about it.

President Clinton led the fight against terrorism over strong opposition from Republicans in Congress and the pro-Republican Media. Here's a long list of accomplishments against terrorism for which the Clinton Administration gets almost no credit, in contrast to the record of the Bush administration.

After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured 1,000, in the first year of his administration, President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
The perpetrators of the 1993 WTC bombing were caught and punished. The blind Mullah ring-leader was already in jail, and was retried for the attack. His helpers were caught and tried, and they were sentenced to life in prison. That's called decisive action, as opposed to Republican hot air.

After the first 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military personel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
The perpretrators of the bombings in Saudi Arabia were caught, most likely with CIA help. Saudi Arabia had them beheaded.

In 1996 President Clinton pushed hard for anti-terrorism legislation and the Republican controlled Congress pushed just as hard to frustrate his efforts. See CNN.com/US/9607/30/clinton.terrorism/

After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
The perpretrators of the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings were captured, and are now in jail for life.
Also, when President Clinton learned that Osam Bin Laden was having a top-level Al Qaeda leadership meeting in Afghanistan he ordered the site bombed and came very close to preventing the bombing of the World Trade Centers on 9/11/2001. And the response of the Republican leadership and the entire mainstream media was: "Bill Clinton, don't you dare try to "wag the dog", and distract us with all this nonsense about some far away terrorist! What America needs to attend to is the stain on Monica Lewinsky's dress."
There were several known terrorist attempts were thwarted un Bill Clinton's watch:
# an attempt to blow up the Holland Tunnel,
# an attempt to blow up the Lincoln Tunnel,
# an attempt on the life of the Pope,
# an attempt to blow up the L.A.X airport.
# Two attempts over the Millennium weekend to plant bombs in cites in the Northeast and the Northwest of the United States.

Also consider the following…
The Clinton administration sent legislation to Congress to tighten airport security. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.

The Clinton administration sent legislation to Congress to allow for better tracking of terrorist funding. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

The Clinton administration sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for better tracking of explosives used by terrorists. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA. When Republicans couldn't prevent executive action, President Clinton:

Developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator.

- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Boston airport.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.

The first serious terror threat on our soil during the Bush’s Presidency left us with over 3,000 Americans dead.

Tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).

Brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.
Did not blame Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after they had left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively -- and successfully -- to stop future terrorist attacks.

Named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

Tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.

Detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries
Created a national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.

Robert Oakley, Reagan Counterterrorism Czar says of Clinton's efforts "Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama"

Paul Bremer, Bush's Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley saying he believed the Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden. "

Barton Gellman of the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort."

I'm not a HUGE Clinton fan, but compared to Bush...well...I'll leave that one alone. lol

[Aquila]

Also consider that, in stark contrast to Clinton’s record with terror (listed above), this is part of the Bush-Cheney anti-terrorism record before September 11, 2001:

- Backed off Clinton administration's anti-terrorism efforts.
- Shelved the Hart-Rudman report.
- Appointed new anti-terrorism task force under Dick Cheney. Group did not even meet before 9/11.
- Called for cuts in anti-terrorism efforts by the Department of Defense.
- Gave no priority to anti-terrorism efforts by Justice Department.
- Ignored warnings from Sandy Berger, Louis Freeh, George Tennant, Paul Bremer, and Richard Clarke about the urgency of terrorist threats.
- Halted Predator drone tracking of Osama bin Laden.
- Did nothing in wake of August 6 C.I.A. report to president saying Al Qaeda attack by hijack of an airliner almost certain.
- Bush - knowing about the terrorists' plans to attack in America, warned that terrorists were in flight schools in the US - took a four week vacation.
- By failing to order any coordination of intelligence data, missed opportunity to stop the 9/11 plot as Clinton-Gore had stopped the millennium plots.
On 9/11
- our Air National Defense was directed to stand down.
- the two fighter jets that were scrambled flew out to sea, away from Washington and New York and the attacking air liners.
- After one of four airliners had crashed into the World Trade Center and 3 more airliners were still heading toward critical targets, the President continued to read "My Pet Goat" to third graders, claiming that he didn't want to scare them, and then had them gather around for his press conference to hear the dreadful news strait from the horse's mouth.

The attacks on 9/11 took place during Bush’s watch for a reason. The took place because…they could.

[DividedThigh]

Also consider that, in stark contrast to Clinton’s record with terror (listed above), this is part of the Bush-Cheney anti-terrorism record before September 11, 2001:

- Backed off Clinton administration's anti-terrorism efforts.
- Shelved the Hart-Rudman report.
- Appointed new anti-terrorism task force under Dick Cheney. Group did not even meet before 9/11.
- Called for cuts in anti-terrorism efforts by the Department of Defense.
- Gave no priority to anti-terrorism efforts by Justice Department.
- Ignored warnings from Sandy Berger, Louis Freeh, George Tennant, Paul Bremer, and Richard Clarke about the urgency of terrorist threats.
- Halted Predator drone tracking of Osama bin Laden.
- Did nothing in wake of August 6 C.I.A. report to president saying Al Qaeda attack by hijack of an airliner almost certain.
- Bush - knowing about the terrorists' plans to attack in America, warned that terrorists were in flight schools in the US - took a four week vacation.
- By failing to order any coordination of intelligence data, missed opportunity to stop the 9/11 plot as Clinton-Gore had stopped the millennium plots.
On 9/11
- our Air National Defense was directed to stand down.
- the two fighter jets that were scrambled flew out to sea, away from Washington and New York and the attacking air liners.
- After one of four airliners had crashed into the World Trade Center and 3 more airliners were still heading toward critical targets, the President continued to read "My Pet Goat" to third graders, claiming that he didn't want to scare them, and then had them gather around for his press conference to hear the dreadful news strait from the horse's mouth.

The attacks on 9/11 took place during Bush’s watch for a reason. The took place because…they could.

what a bunch of garbage, lol,dt

[Aquila]

Also check this out...

President wants Senate to hurry with new anti-terrorism laws
July 30, 1996
Web posted at: 8:40 p.m. EDT
http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/30/clinton.terrorism/

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Clinton urged Congress Tuesday to act swiftly in developing anti-terrorism legislation before its August recess. (1.6 MB AIFF or WAV sound)

"We need to keep this country together right now. We need to focus on this terrorism issue," Clinton said during a White House news conference.

But while the president pushed for quick legislation, Republican lawmakers hardened their stance against some of the proposed anti-terrorism measures.

Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Mississippi, doubted that the Senate would rush to action before they recess this weekend. The Senate needs to study all the options, he said, and trying to get it done in the next three days would be tough.

One key GOP senator was more critical, calling a proposed study of chemical markers in explosives "a phony issue."

Taggants value disputed
Clinton said he knew there was Republican opposition to his proposal on explosive taggants, but it should not be allowed to block the provisions on which both parties agree.

"What I urge them to do is to be explicit about their disagreement, but don't let it overcome the areas of agreement," he said.

The president emphasized coming to terms on specific areas of disagreement would help move the legislation along. The president stressed it's important to get the legislation out before the weekend's recess, especially following the bombing of Centennial Olympic Park and the crash of TWA Flight 800.

"The most important thing right now is that they get the best, strongest bill they can out -- that they give us as much help as they can," he said.

Hatch blasts 'phony' issues
Republican leaders earlier met with White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta for about an hour in response to the president's call for "the very best ideas" for fighting terrorism.

Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, emerged from the meeting and said, "These are very controversial provisions that the White House wants. Some they're not going to get."

Hatch called Clinton's proposed study of taggants -- chemical markers in explosives that could help track terrorists -- "a phony issue."

"If they want to, they can study the thing" already, Hatch asserted. He also said he had some problems with the president's proposals to expand wiretapping.

Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-South Dakota, said it is a mistake if Congress leaves town without addressing anti-terrorism legislation. Daschle is expected to hold a special meeting on the matter Wednesday with Congressional leaders.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.



Many of the antiterror measures Clinton wanted were resisted by the Republican Congress. After 9/11 the Republicanns implimented those policies as part of the Patriot Act. Who knows...maybe they shouldn't have resisted them when Clinton pushed for them.

[Sister Alvear]

I remember in the year of 72 I believe it was my husbands kin folks in Chile wanting the people's party government to win...along with thousands and thousands...it did not matter to them that the party laughed at God and His plan...the party got in all right...and the rest is history...I remember standing in lines all day long with a little red card trying to buy milk...everything was rationed...churches were being closed, hatred toward americans on every con=rner... and on and on...
americans do not realize how in one day everything can drasticclly chage.

[Nahum]

Clinton sold a ton of our military secrets to China.

Proven fact.

China operatives financed his campaigns.

[Aquila]

Clinton sold a ton of our military secrets to China.

Proven fact.

China operatives financed his campaigns.

Please provide verifiable sources.

[Ferd]

President Clinton led the fight against terrorism over strong opposition from Republicans in Congress and the pro-Republican Media. Here's a long list of accomplishments against terrorism for which the Clinton Administration gets almost no credit, in contrast to the record of the Bush administration.

After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured 1,000, in the first year of his administration, President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
The perpetrators of the 1993 WTC bombing were caught and punished. The blind Mullah ring-leader was already in jail, and was retried for the attack. His helpers were caught and tried, and they were sentenced to life in prison. That's called decisive action, as opposed to Republican hot air.

After the first 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military personel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
The perpretrators of the bombings in Saudi Arabia were caught, most likely with CIA help. Saudi Arabia had them beheaded.

In 1996 President Clinton pushed hard for anti-terrorism legislation and the Republican controlled Congress pushed just as hard to frustrate his efforts. See CNN.com/US/9607/30/clinton.terrorism/

After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
The perpretrators of the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings were captured, and are now in jail for life.
Also, when President Clinton learned that Osam Bin Laden was having a top-level Al Qaeda leadership meeting in Afghanistan he ordered the site bombed and came very close to preventing the bombing of the World Trade Centers on 9/11/2001. And the response of the Republican leadership and the entire mainstream media was: "Bill Clinton, don't you dare try to "wag the dog", and distract us with all this nonsense about some far away terrorist! What America needs to attend to is the stain on Monica Lewinsky's dress."
There were several known terrorist attempts were thwarted un Bill Clinton's watch:
# an attempt to blow up the Holland Tunnel,
# an attempt to blow up the Lincoln Tunnel,
# an attempt on the life of the Pope,
# an attempt to blow up the L.A.X airport.
# Two attempts over the Millennium weekend to plant bombs in cites in the Northeast and the Northwest of the United States.

Also consider the following…
The Clinton administration sent legislation to Congress to tighten airport security. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.

The Clinton administration sent legislation to Congress to allow for better tracking of terrorist funding. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

The Clinton administration sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for better tracking of explosives used by terrorists. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA. When Republicans couldn't prevent executive action, President Clinton:

Developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator.

- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Boston airport.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.

The first serious terror threat on our soil during the Bush’s Presidency left us with over 3,000 Americans dead.

Tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).

Brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.
Did not blame Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after they had left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively -- and successfully -- to stop future terrorist attacks.

Named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

Tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.

Detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries
Created a national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.

Robert Oakley, Reagan Counterterrorism Czar says of Clinton's efforts "Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama"

Paul Bremer, Bush's Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley saying he believed the Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden. "

Barton Gellman of the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort."

I'm not a HUGE Clinton fan, but compared to Bush...well...I'll leave that one alone. lol
It looks like you and Chris are drinking the same cyanide.

Bill Clinton bears direct responsibility for the 9/11 attack. Bill Clinton LED? REALLY? you really want to stand by that statement?

If so, then I consider your crediblilty to be less than ZERO and MUCH LESS than HONEST.

You say Bill Clinton LED, then you say you arent a HUGE Clinton fan?

I dont believe you on either point.

but hey, you did put a bunch of letters together before you hit 'submit reply'

I guess that counts for something.

[Aquila]

It looks like you and Chris are drinking the same cyanide.

Bill Clinton bears direct responsibility for the 9/11 attack. Bill Clinton LED? REALLY? you really want to stand by that statement?

If so, then I consider your crediblilty to be less than ZERO and MUCH LESS than HONEST.

You say Bill Clinton LED, then you say you arent a HUGE Clinton fan?

I dont believe you on either point.

but hey, you did put a bunch of letters together before you hit 'submit reply'

I guess that counts for something.

Refute the facts or provide sources indicating other wise. Please don't personally insult people.

[Nahum]

Please provide verifiable sources.

Why?

Do you really think that the sources you provided for your posts were factual and unbiased?

:toofunny:toofunny

[Nahum]

Refute the facts or provide sources indicating other wise. Please don't personally insult people.

Facts?

You are hilariously biased and misled.

Those articles were probably written by Bill's campaign manager.

[Ferd]

President Clinton led the fight against terrorism over strong opposition from Republicans in Congress and the pro-Republican Media. Here's a long list of accomplishments against terrorism for which the Clinton Administration gets almost no credit, in contrast to the record of the Bush administration.

After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured 1,000, in the first year of his administration, President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
The perpetrators of the 1993 WTC bombing were caught and punished. The blind Mullah ring-leader was already in jail, and was retried for the attack. His helpers were caught and tried, and they were sentenced to life in prison. That's called decisive action, as opposed to Republican hot air.

After the first 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military personel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
The perpretrators of the bombings in Saudi Arabia were caught, most likely with CIA help. Saudi Arabia had them beheaded.

In 1996 President Clinton pushed hard for anti-terrorism legislation and the Republican controlled Congress pushed just as hard to frustrate his efforts. See CNN.com/US/9607/30/clinton.terrorism/

After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
The perpretrators of the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings were captured, and are now in jail for life.
Also, when President Clinton learned that Osam Bin Laden was having a top-level Al Qaeda leadership meeting in Afghanistan he ordered the site bombed and came very close to preventing the bombing of the World Trade Centers on 9/11/2001. And the response of the Republican leadership and the entire mainstream media was: "Bill Clinton, don't you dare try to "wag the dog", and distract us with all this nonsense about some far away terrorist! What America needs to attend to is the stain on Monica Lewinsky's dress."
There were several known terrorist attempts were thwarted un Bill Clinton's watch:
# an attempt to blow up the Holland Tunnel,
# an attempt to blow up the Lincoln Tunnel,
# an attempt on the life of the Pope,
# an attempt to blow up the L.A.X airport.
# Two attempts over the Millennium weekend to plant bombs in cites in the Northeast and the Northwest of the United States.

Also consider the following…
The Clinton administration sent legislation to Congress to tighten airport security. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.

The Clinton administration sent legislation to Congress to allow for better tracking of terrorist funding. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

The Clinton administration sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for better tracking of explosives used by terrorists. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA. When Republicans couldn't prevent executive action, President Clinton:

Developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator.

- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Boston airport.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.
- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.

The first serious terror threat on our soil during the Bush’s Presidency left us with over 3,000 Americans dead.

Tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).

Brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.
Did not blame Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after they had left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively -- and successfully -- to stop future terrorist attacks.

Named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

Tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.

Detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries
Created a national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.

Robert Oakley, Reagan Counterterrorism Czar says of Clinton's efforts "Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama"

Paul Bremer, Bush's Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley saying he believed the Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden. "

Barton Gellman of the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort."

I'm not a HUGE Clinton fan, but compared to Bush...well...I'll leave that one alone. lol


This is a redux of a conversation I had with someone else some place else. Did you copy this?

Please note, Bill Clinton's promises in the above quote starts with "after xxxxx bombing'

Bill Clinton led by making arrests AFTER Americans DIED at the hands of terrorists.

THEN Democrats have fought GWBush for Going after the bad guys BEFORE they attack us.

Sorry my ultra liberal member of the Hate America First crowd, I aint sipping cool aid with you


This is just another disgusting display of what is wrong with the Democratic wing of the Democrat party. Nauseating.

[Nahum]

Remember when Clinton was in impeachment hearings and he decided to bomb that factory over in the middle east? What was it that factory was producing?

He tried to use military force to distract us from his little fling with Monica.

You know, the woman he said he didn't have sex with?

[Aquila]

Sources please.

[Nahum]

Vincent Foster.

[Nahum]

Whitewater.

[Ferd]

Refute the facts or provide sources indicating other wise. Please don't personally insult people.

Dude, youve copied stuff of GNC and posted it here!

Jamie Gurley (i think that is her name)was the author of the rules change under BC that created the "Wall" between the FBI and the CIA!


She was also on the 9/11 Commission!

Like what youve provided is facts! Ive seen that stuff on Democrats.com and moveoon.org!

please.

[Aquila]

Yes, Republicans distracted him from his duties over an affair.

[Nahum]

Sources please.

Do you want me to cut, copy and paste all of my posts like you do?


How boring.:toofunny

[Nahum]

Yes, Republicans distracted him from his duties over an affair.


What were his duties they distracted him from?

Sounds like he was rather distracted already.

Black dress, cigars, oval office.


Yes, how dare they distract him from such important governmental affairs.

[Ferd]

Sources please.
You provided sources that said Bill Clinton promised to bring people to justice AFTER they bomed Americans.

I dont need to provide a source that AGREES WITH THAT.

All I have to do is say Bill Clinton was a coward for not doing anything to STOP them before hand!


YOUR words tell me YOU support Bill Clinton, even when you say YOU arent a "HUGE FAN"

Either your 8,000 letters all smashed together in a way that supports that idot Bill Clinton was tongue in cheek or you arent being truthful when you say you dont like him!

which is it?

Please provide a source!

[Aquila]

At least it would be something other than your personal opinion.

[Nahum]

At least it would be something other than your personal opinion.

That's all your sources are.

Biased opinions.

I betcha my opinion is much more factually based an unbiased than all of the cut, copy and paste sources you've provided are.

[Nahum]

You provided sources that said Bill Clinton promised to bring people to justice AFTER they bomed Americans.

I dont need to provide a source that AGREES WITH THAT.

All I have to do is say Bill Clinton was a coward for not doing anything to STOP them before hand!


YOUR words tell me YOU support Bill Clinton, even when you say YOU arent a "HUGE FAN"

Either your 8,000 letters all smashed together in a way that supports that idot Bill Clinton was tongue in cheek or you arent being truthful when you say you dont like him!

which is it?

Please provide a source!

Get 'em Ferd!

Smoke 'em out!

:happydance

[Ferd]

Yes, Republicans distracted him from his duties over an affair.

This from the guy that doesnt like bill. Still dont buy that one.


Republicans proved he was guilty of a FELONEY for LYING UNDER OATH!

Demonrats claim this was about a private sexual matter.

Republicans point out it was about commiting a FELONEY for LYING UNDER OATH!


Please note, Scooter Libby was found guilty of Lying under Oath and demonrats screamed to high heaven when he didnt GO TO JAIL.

The difference?
Bill Clinton's lie was a material lie that was directly related to the sexual harrassment case AGAINST HIM

Scooter Libby said he didnt remember something about something that was NOT AGAINST THE LAW. but was found guilty of a lie that wasnt even material to the case in question!

[Ferd]

At least it would be something other than your personal opinion.

Riiight, you giving us George Soros's opinion is somehow more authoritative?


well how about this source?

www.anncoulter.com

There there's you a source for Democrats are stupid.

[DividedThigh]

Dude, youve copied stuff of GNC and posted it here!

Jamie Gurley (i think that is her name)was the author of the rules change under BC that created the "Wall" between the FBI and the CIA!


She was also on the 9/11 Commission!

Like what youve provided is facts! Ive seen that stuff on Democrats.com and moveoon.org!

please.

you are right ferd, her name was jamie gorelick, lol, dt

[Ferd]

Democrats hate America

source

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/gov_philosophy/hate_america.htm


Look at me! I can Google and paste a url!

[Praxeas]

ok all of this is background noise imho, i cant vote for a candidate that agrees with abortion and wants to raise taxes, cant and wont, repub or dem dont matter, cant do it, dt:happydance
Thank you. That is your choice and at least the facts are the facts.