Why are some x-UPCers so set on bashing the UPC???

[Malvaro]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

[Tina]

My family left the UPC when I was 13 yrs old.

I can't recall making a single anti upc post on any forum.

So it CAN be done. :D

[revrandy]

Folks that are hurt generally lash back....

[Annie]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

They are lashing out in secret sorrow of having left the 'mothership'???? :nah

[Felicity]

Some are working through issues Mal. Very often the rhetoric tones down after a few years when they can look back and look at the issues a little more objectively.

I think it's good that people have the opportunity to express themselves. I mean there are lots of posters who can counter any bashing and offer a more balanced and pragmatic viewpoint.

That's why Jim started FCF in the first place. So the "issues" could be discussed without fear of censorship.

At the same time I realize that care needs to be taken and people need to watch their attitudes and spirits. We ALL do! :)

[Malvaro]

Folks that are hurt generally lash back....

ummmmm.... everyone gets hurt sometime, someplace.... isn't that a reality in life.... or do some actually believe that this couldn't happen in a church???

this statement isn't a cop-out (sp?) just an observation....

[Malvaro]

They are lashing out in secret sorrow of having left the 'mothership'???? :nah

why would i be sorrowful about being "set free" like I've heard many X'ers say.... shouldn't they be happier with their new-found liberties??? i would think that it would be more of a burden constantly looking back and re-opening those old "wounds" and "memories" ....

if they truly left for the right reasons, let it go and move on with your life.... if they left for the wrong reasons, repent and get right with God....

whats so hard about that??

[revrandy]

ummmmm.... everyone gets hurt sometime, someplace.... isn't that a reality in life.... or do some actually believe that this couldn't happen in a church???

this statement isn't a cop-out (sp?) just an observation....

The Forum is a unknown place where they can make their feelings known tho and not get a backlash...

[J-Roc]

Some are working through issues Mal. Very often the rhetoric tones down after a few years when they can look back and look at the issues a little more objectively.

I think it's good that people have the opportunity to express themselves. I mean there are lots of posters who can counter any bashing and offer a more balanced and pragmatic viewpoint.

That's why Jim started FCF in the first place. So the "issues" could be discussed without fear of censorship.

At the same time I realize that care needs to be taken and people need to watch their attitudes and spirits. We ALL do! :)



I vote you the wisest person on AFF! :tiphat

[Malvaro]

on a side note, I will say that I can think of several folks who have left the UPC organization and yet still hold fast to the same doctrine and truths.... I completely respect their decision and know that God can still bless them....

[rgcraig]

Some are working through issues Mal. Very often the rhetoric tones down after a few years when they can look back and look at the issues a little more objectively.

I think it's good that people have the opportunity to express themselves. I mean there are lots of posters who can counter any bashing and offer a more balanced and pragmatic viewpoint.

That's why Jim started FCF in the first place. So the "issues" could be discussed without fear of censorship.

At the same time I realize that care needs to be taken and people need to watch their attitudes and spirits. We ALL do! :)

NOTE: She said: discuss (not tear down and fight.)

EXCELLENT NOTE: She said: At the same time I realize that care needs to be taken and people need to watch their attitudes and spirits.

[COOPER]

on a side note, I will say that I can think of several folks who have left the UPC organization and yet still hold fast to the same doctrine and truths.... I completely respect their decision and know that God can still bless them....

But would the complete respect be there is they left standards?

[tbpew]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

OK, I may be misunderstood but it certainly will not be the first time.
I really want to be a part of this because I think I have processed enough life experience to add my voice to the discussion.

here goes...
the global reason I submit for consideration is this:
the experience that preceded was disproportionately established in actions involving carnal-mindedness (as babes in Christ), to such a degree, that the exit can only be lived from, evaluated, considered and reflected upon within activities that are viewed as being "sourced by men".

For many, there was never a privilege OR PROVOCATION to mature in Christ.

So in making the decision to separate, they are left with a set of life experiences. In an attempt to reconcile these events that are certainly "true in their perception" they do not have spiritual-mindedness to work with; they are left with only the witness of men.

[SDG]

But would the complete respect be there is they left standards?

PROBABLY



















NOT.

[J-Roc]

OK, I may be misunderstood but it certainly will not be the first time.
I really want to be a part of this because I think I have processed enough life experience to add my voice to the discussion.


You sound like Master B....hmmmm.

[Felicity]

OK, I may be misunderstood but it certainly will not be the first time.
I really want to be a part of this because I think I have processed enough life experience to add my voice to the discussion.

here goes...
the global reason I submit for consideration is this:
the experience that preceded was disproportionately established in actions involving carnal-mindedness (as babes in Christ), to such a degree, that the exit can only be lived from, evaluated, considered and reflected upon within activities that are viewed as being "sourced by men".

For many, there was never a privilege OR PROVOCATION to mature in Christ.

So in making the decision to separate, they are left with a set of life experiences. In an attempt to reconcile these events that are certainly "true in their perception" they do not have spiritual-mindedness to work with; they are left with only the witness of men.Huh?! :wacko

I disagree for the most part. I was going to say "respectfully disagree" but decided just "disagree" was fine. :)

Of course you did say "many" -- not all. Thank heavens for that but I think the generalization wouldn't fit MOST of the people I know personally who left.

:tiphat

[BrotherEastman]

I was raised UPC all my life. I have seen close family members become disgruntled for some good reasons as well as some pretty lame ones. If anyone feels as if they have a "right" to be disgruntled I know I sure do, however, I also realize that we sometimes bring reasons to be disgruntled at the UPC upon ourselves. The way I see it, if you set the UPCI up high on a pedastool to begin with, then you will eventually be let down in some way. I thank God for the UPC, I just do not plan to set them up higher than God.

[Malvaro]

But would the complete respect be there is they left standards?

i can think of several who have left what I consider to be "middle of the road", normal UPC standards and it has not changed my friendship with them.... I may not agree with their decision(s) and/or reason(s) but they would be the first to tell you that we can agree to disagree and it wouldn't come between our friendship.... it would affect whether they would be able to minister in my church, but it wouldn't affect them being welcome in my home or fellowshipping with them over dinner....

having spent a lifetime in the UPC, I have experienced many hurts myself....

[SDG]

i can think of several who have left what I consider to be "middle of the road", normal UPC standards and it has not changed my friendship with them.... I may not agree with their decision(s) and/or reason(s) but they would be the first to tell you that we can agree to disagree and it wouldn't come between our friendship.... it would affect whether they would be able to minister in my church, but it wouldn't affect them being welcome in my home or fellowshipping with them over dinner....

having spent a lifetime in the UPC, I have experienced many hurts myself....

Da rest of 'dem are CHAREESMATICS ....

[LadyChocolate]

Folks that are hurt generally lash back....

on a side note, I will say that I can think of several folks who have left the UPC organization and yet still hold fast to the same doctrine and truths.... I completely respect their decision and know that God can still bless them....

I find this is true for life in general.......hurting people hurt people! whether Upc or not.... I was brought up upc and we left and went independent.... The people in the UPC never hurt me, but I can sure tell you about some hurts from the independent realm..... But it's just life...and at one point you have to put those things down and not reward evil for evil.....it's not easy and as someone said, yes it can be done!

[Malvaro]

PROBABLY

NOT.

You are not in a position to speak on my behalf and I would ask that you not do that in the future.... you have no idea the amount of pain and hurt that I have endured through the years, and you would be foolish to even speculate regarding that topic.... i have more reasons to leave the UPC than most could ever dream of....

I defend the UPC, and its principles/truths, because there is still much more good than there is bad.... it is far from perfect, but it is the best that I've got....

[SDG]

You are not in a position to speak on my behalf and I would ask that you not do that in the future.... you have no idea the amount of pain and hurt that I have endured through the years, and you would be foolish to even speculate regarding that topic.... i have more reasons to leave the UPC than most could even dream of....

I defend the UPC, and its principles/truths, because there is still much more good than there is bad.... it is far from perfect, but it is the best that I got....

Tranquilo ... Malvaro ... tranquilo.

I admire your passion.

[tbpew]

Huh?! :wacko

I disagree for the most part. I was going to say "respectfully disagree" but decided just "disagree" was fine. :)

Of course you did say "many" -- not all. Thank heavens for that but I think the generalization wouldn't fit MOST of the people I know personally who left.

:tiphat

Maybe because you view those that left as those who operate in the role of pastors.

My post did not even for one pico-second consider those who changed their member-minister fellowship affiliation from one m-m to another.

thanks for giving me a chance to make this clarifying point.

[Felicity]

Maybe because you view those that left as those who operate in the role of pastors.

My post did not even for one pico-second consider those who changed their member-minister fellowship affiliation from one m-m to another.

thanks for giving me a chance to make this clarifying point.You are most welcome. :toofunny

By the way could you help me out here? What's a pico-second and .......... m-m is what? :confused:


:)

[COOPER]

i can think of several who have left what I consider to be "middle of the road", normal UPC standards and it has not changed my friendship with them.... I may not agree with their decision(s) and/or reason(s) but they would be the first to tell you that we can agree to disagree and it wouldn't come between our friendship.... it would affect whether they would be able to minister in my church, but it wouldn't affect them being welcome in my home or fellowshipping with them over dinner....

having spent a lifetime in the UPC, I have experienced many hurts myself....
But if they are God's minister, why hinder a blessing?:friend

[J-Roc]

You are most welcome. :toofunny

By the way could you help me out here? What's a pico-second and .......... m-m is what? :confused:


:)

I think m-m is "member-minister" as he stated just before that.

[Annie]

i can think of several who have left what I consider to be "middle of the road", normal UPC standards and it has not changed my friendship with them.... I may not agree with their decision(s) and/or reason(s) but they would be the first to tell you that we can agree to disagree and it wouldn't come between our friendship.... it would affect whether they would be able to minister in my church, but it wouldn't affect them being welcome in my home or fellowshipping with them over dinner....

having spent a lifetime in the UPC, I have experienced many hurts myself....


Why is this, Mal??? Because of standard let-down, or because they no longer carry a card???

[tbpew]

You are most welcome. :toofunny

By the way could you help me out here? What's a pico-second and .......... m-m is what? :confused:


:)

pico, a prefix used to represent a number that is (spoken in words) 10 raised to the power of negative 12. Keyboards struggle with scientific notation!
milli, micro, nano, pico
written as a decimal value. 0.000000000001
spoken in awkward but applicable terms............1 trillionth

m-m is my shorthand for a member-minister approach to associating oneself with an organization of earth creatures, aka humans.

[COOPER]

But if they are God's minister, why hinder a blessing?:friend

Why is this, Mal??? Because of standard let-down, or because they no longer carry a card???

Good enough for God but not him and his church.

[SDG]

Good enough for God but not him and his church.

Careful Coop ... he's on a mission today. :toofunny

[SDG]

Does this belong here????

http://geocities.com/tulsadavid2006/upctv.gif

[Malvaro]

But if they are God's minister, why hinder a blessing?:friend

my friendship towards them would not change because of their decision or compromise of standards, but I would not alter my beliefs to accommodate them still being able to minister in my church.... that is how there can be people in the pews that wear makeup/cut hair/etc that I appreciate/love that would not be able to minister due to their inability/unwillingness to comply with the higher ministry expectations....

I think that’s pretty self explanatory....

[Malvaro]

Why is this, Mal??? Because of standard let-down, or because they no longer carry a card???

see my above post...

[Malvaro]

Good enough for God but not him and his church.

Coop,

it would seem that there are some things that you'll never be able to understand....

God bless,

Mal

[originalsecretplace]

I was raised UPC all my life. I have seen close family members become disgruntled for some good reasons as well as some pretty lame ones. If anyone feels as if they have a "right" to be disgruntled I know I sure do, however, I also realize that we sometimes bring reasons to be disgruntled at the UPC upon ourselves. The way I see it, if you set the UPCI up high on a pedastool to begin with, then you will eventually be let down in some way. I thank God for the UPC, I just do not plan to set them up higher than God.


The bolded above was true with me.

When I was UPC I was not taught there was a difference between the church and the UPC. What I mean by that is I was left to believe that the UPC was the church and everyone outside of it was going to hell. The UPC was set up as a god that you were to serve or be damned. I did not understand that the orginzational structure of UPC was not the same as the organism of the church. I thought that being born into the church was the same as being born into the UPC -- If I am a memeber of the church I am a member of the UPC.

When I came to the realisation that the UPC was just an org I felt that I had been misled and confused.

Unlike the ministers on this board and ministers I knew personally, I was completely oblivious to the politics and the view from the inside and knowing it is only an org.-- one of many -- and not the church.

I set the UPC on the pedestal and was broken-hearted when it came crashing down.

[tbpew]

Does this belong here????

http://geocities.com/tulsadavid2006/upctv.gif

Dan,
I have to assume more than even I feel comfortable doing:winkgrin

would you provide your view (answer) your own question please.

thanks.

[OneAccord]

Pro 15:4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

As I was reading the Word this morning, I came accross this little gem. I just wanted to share it. Elsewhere, Solomon said "Death and life are in the power of the tongue". James wrote that the tongue is a deadly evil that no man can tame. And this is so true... how many times have I said something (either verbally or in writing) that hurt someone, added to the burden, made their walk with the Lord a little more difficult? How many times have I posted something here that caused a breach between a brother (or sister) in the Lord and myself? More importantly, how many times have I said something that caused a breach between the Lord and myself? A wholesome tongue... a tongue that speaks encouragement... a voice that edifies and strengthens the Body of Christ. A whole tongue is a tree of life. It spreads and spreads and gives comfort and aid to the wounded. I imagine a traveller in the scorching desert who sees in the distance the cooling shade of a large oak tree, an oasis in the burning heat... a respite from the harshness of the noonday sun. I think of the Prophet Malachi who said, Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. Speaking together with wholesome words. Words that tear down, words that lead to breaches among us... those words are soon forgotten. But words of life, words of encouragement to one another are remembered by the Lord.

[Malvaro]

Dan,
I have to assume more than even I feel comfortable doing:winkgrin

would you provide your view (answer) your own question please.

thanks.

I don't think that Dan will be answering your question for awhile.... :D hehehe

[TRIPLE E]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

I think of the old saying "Misery likes company"

[tbpew]

Pro 15:4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

As I was reading the Word this morning, I came accross this little gem. I just wanted to share it. Elsewhere, Solomon said "Death and life are in the power of the tongue". James wrote that the tongue is a deadly evil that no man can tame. And this is so true... how many times have I said something (either verbally or in writing) that hurt someone, added to the burden, made their walk with the Lord a little more difficult? How many times have I posted something here that caused a breach between a brother (or sister) in the Lord and myself? More importantly, how many times have I said something that caused a breach between the Lord and myself? A wholesome tongue... a tongue that speaks encouragement... a voice that edifies and strengthens the Body of Christ. A whole tongue is a tree of life. It spreads and spreads and gives comfort and aid to the wounded. I imagine a traveller in the scorching desert who sees in the distance the cooling shade of a large oak tree, an oasis in the burning heat... a respite from the harshness of the noonday sun. I think of the Prophet Malachi who said, Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. Speaking together with wholesome words. Words that tear down, words that lead to breaches among us... those words are soon forgotten. But words of life, words of encouragement to one another are remembered by the Lord.
thank you OneAccord for reflecting this light from God's Word toward the place we share here.

The absence of a breech is the establishing condition that we would call unity. What we speak will determine what we are seeking and ultimately establish our dwellingplace.

Life and Death is in the power of the tongue; choices each of us make every waking moment of today.

Thanks for sharing and thanks for caring.

[COOPER]

Coop,

it would seem that there are some things that you'll never be able to understand....

God bless,

Mal
I do understand very well, I just do not like it.

There are awesome Preachers and Pastors on this forum that would be

blessed and bless your church as well, if they came to preach a few days.

In-turn you could bless their church.

As long as you did not Preach on standards and TV.:winkgrin

[Malvaro]

I do understand very well, I just do not like it.

There are awesome Preachers and Pastors on this forum that would be

blessed and bless your church as well, if they came to preach a few days.

In-turn you could bless their church.

As long as you did not Preach on standards and TV.:winkgrin

Coop, you are welcome to your beliefs, as I am welcome to mine....

[tbpew]

I don't think that Dan will be answering your question for awhile.... :D hehehe

thanks for the note.

I was wondering if certain posters were modifying their avatar "slogan" line with personal commentary (I presume that is allowed here but I am not one who knows anything about how things are done on any specific db).

So if "Banned" means "banned", I guess Dan is banned. :igotit

Danno, if you are getting tanned and rested, please don't forget the sunscreen!

[Sister Truth Seeker]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :DIf your spouse left you or died...you would have a hard time thinking about anything else for some time...leaving a church that you believed in with all your heart, and then you get hurt so badly by the same church...it is a grieving process, I think at some point you need to put it away, but for awhile it's all you can think about...

[Malvaro]

If your spouse left you or died...you would have a hard time thinking about anything else for some time...leaving a church that you believed in with all your heart, and then you get hurt so badly by the same church...it is a grieving process, I think at some point you need to put it away, but for awhile it's all you can think about...

and what if the comments always seem to be critisisms and complaints.... can that really be considered grieving?? that doesn't seem to be a fair comparison....

[ZeroedIn]

Where did some of you attend UPC churches?? From what I have read here some of you had some leadership at one time in your life that wasn't very wise in its teaching to you. We have standards in our church. Atleast once every couple months you will hear the pastor at our church say that the UPC is not the church. That it is a fellowship of people who believe the same doctrine. And that there will be a lot of people saved that never even heard of the UPC!

Who said having a tv is a sin? Who said watching tv is a sin??:nah

A steady diet of tv is good for no one. The programming on tv leads us to carnal lifestyles. Carnal mindedness leadeth to death. Therefore some have made a stand against tv and said, you don't need it, and it certainly won't help you be saved.:grampa

Fences and Walls are good things!

I want to be saved.

I thank God for men in my life that have compassionately taught me to live a very conservative lifestyle. When I find myself reaching through the fence, it reminds me that I'm slipping from where I should be. Therefore, I'm really thankful the fence is there. Were it not there, I might not notice that I've drifted a long way from where I should be!:igotit

[Sister Truth Seeker]

and what if the comments always seem to be critisisms and complaints.... can that really be considered grieving?? that doesn't seem to be a fair comparison....

Everyone has their own way of dealing with things...some are just bitter and can't get over it...the sad thing is that God tells us to forgive...we pay a huge price if we don't....It is not always easy to forgive, it can take awhile, if a person is complaining all the time, I would say consider they are probably not moving on with their lives and that is sad...

[Sister Truth Seeker]

Where did some of you attend UPC churches?? From what I have read here some of you had some leadership at one time in your life that wasn't very wise in its teaching to you. We have standards in our church. Atleast once every couple months you will hear the pastor at our church say that the UPC is not the church. That it is a fellowship of people who believe the same doctrine. And that there will be a lot of people saved that never even heard of the UPC!

Who said having a tv is a sin? Who said watching tv is a sin??:nah

A steady diet of tv is good for no one. The programming on tv leads us to carnal lifestyles. Carnal mindedness leadeth to death. Therefore some have made a stand against tv and said, you don't need it, and it certainly won't help you be saved.:grampa

Fences and Walls are good things!

I want to be saved.

I thank God for men in my life that have compassionately taught me to live a very conservative lifestyle. When I find myself reaching through the fence, it reminds me that I'm slipping from where I should be. Therefore, I'm really thankful the fence is there. Were it not there, I might not notice that I've drifted a long way from where I should be!:igotitYour church is not the norm from what I have heard or seen for myself...

The UPC has a stand against TV...you can not be a minester or card carrying member if you have a TV...

Safeguards are good, total control is not...

[OGIA]

The UPC has a stand against TV...you can not be a minester or card carrying member if you have a TV..
This is a joke to some of them. I guess they get away with it by writing in the "exception" clause on their AS. Pretty sad.

[Revelationist]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

Many leave hurt... and then you see the UPC in a whole new light from the outside looking in. I remember waving at saint's I'd known all my life only to have them turn their head so they wouldn't have to wave back. They would turn in the store and walk the other way. That's not the UPC you see while your in it.

[Coonskinner]

Many leave hurt... and then you see the UPC in a whole new light from the outside looking in. I remember waving at saint's I'd known all my life only to have them turn their head so they wouldn't have to wave back. They would turn in the store and walk the other way. That's not the UPC you see while your in it.

Neither is it the UPC most folks see who leave right, and don't have an axe to grind, or a pair of mud colored glasses on.

[StillStanding]

There are some people that were very passionate about their UPC church, or maybe the UPC itself before leaving. When the relationship is broken, the passion finds another way to vent. There truly is a thin line between love and hate.

There are passionate feelings of hurt or abandonment from both sides for a period of time. With time, the passion will disipate. Believe it or not, eventually one will think of the person or church as any other person or church.

[Truly Blessed]

There are some people that were very passionate about their UPC church, or maybe the UPC itself before leaving. When the relationship is broken, the passion finds another way to vent. There truly is a thin line between love and hate.

There are passionate feelings of hurt or abandonment from both sides for a period of time. With time, the passion will disipate. Believe it or not, eventually one will think of the person or church as any other person or church.I agree that time is a great healer. When you reach that point where you just can't conscientiously continue in an organization, the parting causes those on both sides to feel abandoned by those they had considered to be their friends. I know we had close friends who felt that we had abandoned them in leaving the UPC. Of course we were feeling hurt that those we had considered our friends simply cut us off. While those friendships have never been fully recovered, we now understand more clearly the dynamic involved and are much more accepting of the reality that our lives have simply taken different directions in life.

[Felicity]

At the time we left I heard from friends and have heard it later since as well that they felt we were abandoning them and they were very upset and very hurt by that.

But I know that those people - many of them - love me still today. I know I still love them even though I was the one who felt abandoned at the time.

Like PM said........it goes both ways.

[StillStanding]

I agree that time is a great healer. When you reach that point where you just can't conscientiously continue in an organization, the parting causes those on both sides to feel abandoned by those they had considered to be their friends. I know we had close friends who felt that we had abandoned them in leaving the UPC. Of course we were feeling hurt that those we had considered our friends simply cut us off. While those friendships have never been fully recovered, we now understand more clearly the dynamic involved and are much more accepting of the reality that our lives have simply taken different directions in life.

Accepting that reality and "letting go" is not an easy thing to do. Those that do are better off! But, there are some that will NEVER let the bitter feelings go! I feel sorry for those people! :nah

[Barb]

I agree that time is a great healer. When you reach that point where you just can't conscientiously continue in an organization, the parting causes those on both sides to feel abandoned by those they had considered to be their friends. I know we had close friends who felt that we had abandoned them in leaving the UPC. Of course we were feeling hurt that those we had considered our friends simply cut us off. While those friendships have never been fully recovered, we now understand more clearly the dynamic involved and are much more accepting of the reality that our lives have simply taken different directions in life.

Do you think they ever will be recovered or can be?!

[Felicity]

Do you think they ever will be recovered or can be?!I just called a PW a few minutes ago ..... someone who used to be a very close friend. They pastor back home. We talked on the phone several weeks back and we hadn't communicated in years.

We've added each other to our Buddy lists and now we can chat back and forth whenever we want. :bliss

[Barb]

I just called a PW a few minutes ago ..... someone who used to be a very close friend. They pastor back home.

We've added each other to our Buddy lists and now we can chat back and forth whenever we want. :bliss

Now that has made my heart glad...:happydance

[Revelationist]

Neither is it the UPC most folks see who leave right, and don't have an axe to grind, or a pair of mud colored glasses on.

That's always the opinion of the die hards. I left with a hand shake, and the promise of fellowship. The pastor that I left under has even preached at my church.

:neener I live in a area where even local UPC's treat each other that way...

[Coonskinner]

I left once, and came back.

My friends remained friends both times.

[Felicity]

I left once, and came back.

My friends remained friends both times.Right, and there's a reason for that. :)

[Felicity]

I don't buy this "Well they weren't really your friends then" because of the fact that when circumstances change, you change, and you leave the "group" .... fellowship might be broken. I know that fellowship can be broken over some things ..... a lot depends on the particulars of the circumstances or situations.

Please don't tell me that those people were never my friends just because fellowship was broken. I know better.



*talking to nobody specifically here*

:)

[Revelationist]

Recon that's what those inside the JW's say too?

[StillStanding]

I don't buy this "Well they weren't really your friends then" because of the fact that when circumstances change, you change, and you leave the "group" .... fellowship might be broken. I know that fellowship can be broken over some things ..... a lot depends on the particulars of the circumstances or situations.

Please don't tell me that those people were never my friends just because fellowship was broken. I know better.



*talking to nobody specifically here*

:)

I think you should define "friend". I think what some folks call "friends" are really "aquaintences".

I would think a true friend would stick through thick and thin.

[Felicity]

They were real friends in every sense of the word.

[StillStanding]

They were real friends in every sense of the word.
I can believe that! :) Sometimes to protect one's position or reputation, they are forced to back away from fellowship. I think both sides must understand this principal and except it.

[Felicity]

I can believe that! :) Sometimes to protect one's position or reputation, they are forced to back away from fellowship. I think both sides must understand this principal and except it.It wasn't all them. Probably I didn't take advantage enough of the relationship that was there.

Still though.........when you back away from the group you fellowshipped with for many years and start doing things that are considered "backward-ness" spiritually speaking to them, it's only to be expected there's going to be a break to a certain extent at least in regard to fellowship.

Like I said, I KNOW that the people who were once close acquaintances and personal friends still love me. There's no doubt in my mind about that at all.

[StillStanding]

It wasn't all them. Probably I didn't take advantage enough of the relationship that was there.

Still though.........when you back away from the group you fellowshipped with for many years and start doing things that are considered "backward-ness" spiritually speaking to them, it's only to be expected there's going to be a break to a certain extent at least in regard to fellowship.

Like I said, I KNOW that the people who were once close acquaintances and personal friends still love me. There's no doubt in my mind about that at all.

You would probably be welcomed in their homes, but not their pulpit! :)

I'm like you, in that I didn't burn any bridges with any of my UPC friends. I still keep in touch with many of them even until this day. Last week, one of my best friends ever (who is still an ultra-con PAJC'er) came through Nashville and called me up to meet for lunch!

[Sherri]

You would probably be welcomed in their homes, but not their pulpit! :)

I'm like you, in that I didn't burn any bridges with any of my UPC friends. I still keep in touch with many of them even until this day. Last week, one of my best friends ever (who is still an ultra-con PAJC'er) came through Nashville and called me up to meet for lunch!
We didn't burn any bridges either, but I think it's a little different for pastors/preachers. Many of the people that we considered friends abandoned us back in 1991 when we left the org. I can't blame them; there was a lot of political pressure and I understand that they had to, at that time, draw a line. But a few of the brave ones continued to call us and have continued to this day. Some of the ones who turned their backs sixteen years ago now are friendly again; it just takes time. We have been out so long now that I don't think we're seen as a threat anymore. Throughout all these years though, when we would see someone, we would just hug them and act like nothing had changed, because in our eyes, it really hadn't!

[Felicity]

We didn't burn any bridges either, but I think it's a little different for pastors/preachers. Many of the people that we considered friends abandoned us back in 1991 when we left the org. I can't blame them; there was a lot of political pressure and I understand that they had to, at that time, draw a line. But a few of the brave ones continued to call us and have continued to this day. Some of the ones who turned their backs sixteen years ago now are friendly again; it just takes time. We have been out so long now that I don't think we're seen as a threat anymore. Throughout all these years though, when we would see someone, we would just hug them and act like nothing had changed, because in our eyes, it really hadn't!I agree with you Sherri that it's different for pastors/preachers.

It's pretty tough when one of your best friends come to visit you on a Sunday afternoon - stay for a cup of tea - and then on the way out the door tell you that they have to be careful how much time they spend with you on account of being brushed with the 'compromiser' brush. That was quite devastating.

Later they asked us to come by their place for supper and asked we park our car in a less observant spot. It was a very small community after all and if we were seen there word could get out.

That's what it was like in our district for awhile.

I don't blame them really but it still hurts regardless. However, like has been said, time has a way of minimizing all this and as I said earlier elsewhere this PW and I are renewing friendship after several years of little communication at all. Which makes me very happy!!

I've also heard from a couple other PW friends (UPCI) I hadn't had contact with for years.

:)

[Just a Shepherd]

I left once, and came back.

My friends remained friends both times.

Just curious, when you left what was the reason and why did you come back?

[Truly Blessed]

I don't buy this "Well they weren't really your friends then" because of the fact that when circumstances change, you change, and you leave the "group" .... fellowship might be broken. I know that fellowship can be broken over some things ..... a lot depends on the particulars of the circumstances or situations.

Please don't tell me that those people were never my friends just because fellowship was broken. I know better.



*talking to nobody specifically here*

:)You sure you weren't talking to me??? :) If so I'm sitting right here!

[Truly Blessed]

Just curious, when you left what was the reason and why did you come back?He came back because some folks just don't have what it takes to be independent! :D

[Scott Hutchinson]

Something I can't figure out is some people think you ain't nothing if you don't belong to their group, then if you join their group you get treated different.This is not agains't the UPCI some in other groups work like this.

[Coonskinner]

He came back because some folks just don't have what it takes to be independent! :D

:winkgrin

Actually, I came back because my DS asked me to, and my Elders counselled me to do it.

I was really against the idea at the time, but I preach this concept called submission, so I figure I ought to live it.

[IAintMovin]

:winkgrin

Actually, I came back because my DS asked me to, and my Elders counselled me to do it.

I was really against the idea at the time, but I preach this concept called submission, so I figure I ought to live it.
I think he just wanted an office......LOL... Morning Coon.

[Coonskinner]

I think he just wanted an office......LOL... Morning Coon.

ROFL!

Right...because that allows me to use my clout and influence to have my buddies come and preach District meetings, since I can't get them to come and see me any other way. ;)

[IAintMovin]

ROFL!

Right...because that allows me to use my clout and influence to have my buddies come and preach District meetings, since I can't get them to come and see me any other way. ;)
I understand how you feel, I just wish I had an office to use to get them to come and see me - are you not coming through this week??

[Coonskinner]

I understand how you feel, I just wish I had an office to use to get them to come and see me - are you not coming through this week??

I haven't looked at the map, since Sarilda is my navigator/driver.

We are going to Silsbee though.

Will the road take us through Longview?

[IAintMovin]

I just mapquested it and it shows you going through Dallas to Huntsville and then over to the Great White Hunters Place.....too bad, would like to have seen ya.

[Coonskinner]

I just mapquested it and it shows you going through Dallas to Huntsville and then over to the Great White Hunters Place.....too bad, would like to have seen ya.

Well shucks.

I wish we could have gotten together.

[rkentsmith]

I haven't looked at the map, since Sarilda is my navigator/driver.

We are going to Silsbee though.

Will the road take us through Longview?


The road will take you through Conroe....call me and do lunch or something

[Coonskinner]

The road will take you through Conroe....call me and do lunch or something

I'll give you a yell tomorrow, Elder.

[Garfield]

Why would anyone bash God's church?

[Revelationist]

Why would anyone bash God's church?

Why would anyone hurt God's people? That's the real church, not the building or organization.

[Revelationist]

They were real friends in every sense of the word.


What, when it got thin, they thinned out?

[Felicity]

What, when it got thin, they thinned out?Did you not read my posts bro?

[hammondb3klingon1]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D


Some people forget that they are supposed to have the Holy Ghost. To bash the upc is stupid. You want to bash 3 million people because someone(s) hurt you? Hmm sounds like predjudice to me. You don't like them because they have funny hair. AND I am not UPCI. I DESPISE THEM!!@!:nahnah :killinme :killinme :killinme

[Neck]

Some people forget that they are supposed to have the Holy Ghost. To bash the upc is stupid. You want to bash 3 million people because someone(s) hurt you? Hmm sounds like predjudice to me. You don't like them because they have funny hair. AND I am not UPCI. I DESPISE THEM!!@!:nahnah :killinme :killinme :killinme

I have never been hurt. But I still believe a change is needed.....



Nathan Eckstadt

[ManOfWord]

I was in the UPC for 20 yrs and have been out for 10+. I am not one to BASH the org. I will call 'em like I see 'em with the UPC and other orgs and independents as well. The worst thing, from my viewpoint is un-christian behavior in the name of "truth" whether lib or con. People are quick to let their spirits be seen in how they handle disagreements.

I learned many good things in the UPC!!! I also learned the art of religious politics, which I now despise. Unfortunately, it is still alive and well in the org and other orgs for that matter. One good reason I don't belong to any org currently even though there are some good ones out there!

[Malvaro]

I was in the UPC for 20 yrs and have been out for 10+. I am not one to BASH the org. I will call 'em like I see 'em with the UPC and other orgs and independents as well. The worst thing, from my viewpoint is un-christian behavior in the name of "truth" whether lib or con. People are quick to let their spirits be seen in how they handle disagreements.

I learned many good things in the UPC!!! I also learned the art of religious politics, which I now despise. Unfortunately, it is still alive and well in the org and other orgs for that matter. One good reason I don't belong to any org currently even though there are some good ones out there!

religious politics is definately alive and well.... in many, many organizations....

MOW, being out of any org, what method do you use to remain accountable in doctrine/belief/etc.... do you have an elder/mentor/etc in your ministry to look to???

[Revelationist]

I think you should define "friend". I think what some folks call "friends" are really "aquaintences".

I would think a true friend would stick through thick and thin.


Felicity, the post right above yours said this... then your message was right under it saying that they were friends in ever sense of the word... Putting the two messages together, I got a chuckle out of it.... I did read your post. : )

[Rhoni]

I was in the UPCI 40 years of the 49 years I have been alive and I will say that Pianoman is right...true friends are friends no matter what. When we had church trouble and we turned in our UPCI license...we were ostracised and friends fled...we had 2 or 3 left but compared to all those we thought were friends...well, it opened my eyes and what I saw hurt me to the core.

Now I realize that it wasn't that they didn't like us but were only 'fair-weather' friends...when you go through the fire...there is only one man there in the fire with you..and he is the son of God!

Blessings, Rhoni

[Felicity]

Look .......... the TRUTH of the matter is this .........

I've done the same thing in the past. I was never unkind but have walked past men and women who had left the UPC with just a smile and a nod of the head.

One of my friends who was raised UPC later on dropped the standards that I was still holding at that time, and I remember talking with her in the mall one evening and asking her how she could do what she did. Didn't she feel convicted? How could she let down like that.

I know how it goes. I know how it works. That's why I can't be too judgmental toward others who felt the same about me after I "changed".

There are reasons why people do the things they do and act the way they act.

I'm just thankful to know that many of the people I fellowshipped with when we were UPC still think about me and ask about me and love me.

[Lost]

I see that some arguments never change. Another UPC vs x-UPC thread.

[LaVonne]

Look .......... the TRUTH of the matter is this .........

I've done the same thing in the past. I was never unkind but have walked past men and women who had left the UPC with just a smile and a nod of the head.

One of my friends who was raised UPC later on dropped the standards that I was still holding at that time, and I remember talking with her in the mall one evening and asking her how she could do what she did. Didn't she feel convicted? How could she let down like that.

I know how it goes. I know how it works. That's why I can't be too judgmental toward others who felt the same about me after I "changed".

There are reasons why people do the things they do and act the way they act.

I'm just thankful to know that many of the people I fellowshipped with when we were UPC still think about me and ask about me and love me.

Felicity,

I've hurt those that I was once close to that let down the standard as well. I feel badly about it and have apologised for my wrong doings. Now, when I see ex UPC'ers I really try hard to not treat them any differently. In fact, I ran into some just recently and we had a really nice visit. It's hard on both sides, don't you think?

[Rhoni]

Felicity,

I've hurt those that I was once close to that let down the standard as well. I feel badly about it and have apologised for my wrong doings. Now, when I see ex UPC'ers I really try hard to not treat them any differently. In fact, I ran into some just recently and we had a really nice visit. It's hard on both sides, don't you think?

I am not Felicity but I do have an opinion on this matter...

I do think it is difficult on both sides. It is difficult to project what one will say or do if one is put into similar circumstances.

Here is a real example: After we had turned in our UPCI license, a letter went out to all those licensed in the state of Indiana that they were not to eat, speak with, or preach for us because we chose to return from Florida to Pastor a split off the UPCI church where we had resigned from.

I hosted a mother and daughter banquet for Mother's Day that year and we had over 150 ladies scheduled to attend, a fashion show made up of children from the church and children's modest fashions. There were mothers being honored by their daughters, and I asked my personal friend, a UPCI minister's wife to speak for us. One week before the event was to occur...the District Superintendent was contacted by the current Pastor of the local UPCI church that another UPCI minister's wife was going to speak for us and he didn't like it. The DS called her husband and forbade her to speak. She called me sobbing saying what I have disclosed here. She was hurt and so was I.

I asked my mother-in-law to speak on the Older women's role in the church, and I spoke on the younger women's role in the church. The banquet went off without a hitch and it was beautiful and we had an excellent time. It was years later, after divorce, and education, that the former Pastor's wife, my former friend was free to tell me exactly what happened and how she felt. It was healing.

Many put in this position are obligated to submit to the authority over them, even if the authority is wrong. The Bible tells us that..."Obedience is better than sacrifice.." God restored our friendship but it was sad on both sides of the fence. I hope more wisdom and understanding reigns within our ranks than in the past.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Malvaro]

religious politics is definately alive and well.... in many, many organizations....

MOW, being out of any org, what method do you use to remain accountable in doctrine/belief/etc.... do you have an elder/mentor/etc in your ministry to look to???

:bump for MOW.... just honestly curious, not trying to press any buttons....

[Malvaro]

I found out today that a co-worker's wife is x-UPC.... i guess we'll find out if thats good or bad....

[Felicity]

Thanks for bumping this Mal. I'd totally missed the last couple posts.

[Barb]

Look .......... the TRUTH of the matter is this .........

I've done the same thing in the past. I was never unkind but have walked past men and women who had left the UPC with just a smile and a nod of the head.

One of my friends who was raised UPC later on dropped the standards that I was still holding at that time, and I remember talking with her in the mall one evening and asking her how she could do what she did. Didn't she feel convicted? How could she let down like that.

I know how it goes. I know how it works. That's why I can't be too judgmental toward others who felt the same about me after I "changed".

There are reasons why people do the things they do and act the way they act.

I'm just thankful to know that many of the people I fellowshipped with when we were UPC still think about me and ask about me and love me.

A good friend of yours just asked me about you yesterday as a matter of fact...:tiphat

[Truly Blessed]

When there is conflict in a district and some ministers have chosen to leave the organization, it is only to be expected that some preachers who plan to remain within the organization will distance themselves from those who have left. You would be suspect concerning your loyalties if you were fellowshipping with those who have already left. It's the nature of organizational politics.

[tbpew]

When there is conflict in a district and some ministers have chosen to leave the organization, it is only to be expected that some preachers who plan to remain within the organization will distance themselves from those who have left. You would be suspect concerning your loyalties if you were fellowshipping with those who have already left. It's the nature of organizational politics.

Your post would seem to make it a man-2-man issue NOT any kind of application of scriptures to "mark them that cause division among you and have no fellowship with such" kinda thing.

do you believe that those who engage these kind of tactics are doing so in an attempt to obey scripture?

[Barb]

Your post would seem to make it a man-2-man issue NOT any kind of application of scriptures to "mark them that cause division among you and have no fellowship with such" kinda thing.

do you believe that those who engage these kind of tactics are doing so in an attempt to obey scripture?

What makes you assume that because one withdraws from an organization that they are causing division?!

[tbpew]

What makes you assume that because one withdraws from an organization that they are causing division?!

you're kidding right Barb?
that's what you heard in my reply to TB?

sorry, I hope TB does not.

btw,
I can not think of any BETTER remedy for NOT causing division then simply choosing to withdraw from offical member-minister dues paying fellowship.

[Barb]

you're kidding right Barb?
that's what you heard in my reply to TB?

sorry, I hope TB does not.

btw,
I can not think of any BETTER remedy for NOT causing division then simply choosing to withdraw from offical member-minister dues paying fellowship.

No, I'm not kidding...I apologize if my reading comprehension is off today, but that's the way it came off to me.

Sorry...

[Neck]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

Malvaro,

Sometimes if you do not want to hear an opinion.

The don't ask the question.

It is not like every x-UPC'r is looking to slam the organization or a person.

Many are pushed to answer questions.

Then some may not like the answer.

It is not the UPC anyone is pushing back on or at.

It is a stance against a viewpoint....

SOmetimes the CON's need to understand the distinction.

[Malvaro]

Malvaro,

Sometimes if you do not want to hear an opinion.

The don't ask the question.

It is not like every x-UPC'r is looking to slam the organization or a person.

Many are pushed to answer questions.

Then some may not like the answer.

It is not the UPC anyone is pushing back on or at.

It is a stance against a viewpoint....

SOmetimes the CON's need to understand the distinction.

I guess thats why I said "some folks".... if you don't want to answer, then don't.... noone's forcing you....

[Truly Blessed]

Your post would seem to make it a man-2-man issue NOT any kind of application of scriptures to "mark them that cause division among you and have no fellowship with such" kinda thing.

do you believe that those who engage these kind of tactics are doing so in an attempt to obey scripture?
I think on one level some believe that they are simply obeying Scripture, while for others it is a more personal thing. They simply feel betrayed by those who would choose to no longer belong to their organization. Some people aren't able to distinguish one taking a stand for their own beliefs and principles from taking a stand against them, and so they interpret leaving as a personal rejection of themself.

[Malvaro]

:D

[COOPER]

:D

Speaking of ones betterment is not bashing UPC.

If you are speaking of the Good of UPC, it's not bashing the ex-upc.

:friend

I do not like some UPC preachers, But I do not dis-like them all.:friend

[philjones]

Speaking of ones betterment is not bashing UPC.

If you are speaking of the Good of UPC, it's not bashing the ex-upc.

:friend

I do not like some UPC preachers, But I do not dis-like them all.:friend

Would that be because you don't know them all???:slaphappy :slaphappy

[Darty]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

Ok... I have grown up in UPCI. Have attended churches that were UPCI but pastor gave it to Independent church to pastor. I have seen Charismatic Churches and all aspects between. I currently hold to the "standards" that UPC holds and have no intentions of changing that.
My husband and I have left ONENESS Churches to go to other ONENESS Churches because we just didn't feel like we fit in with the vision of that pastor. Not that we didn't agree with his standards or have much respect for him just he was a frustrated prophet/preacher and that is a dangerous place to sit under. Out of respect for his ministry we removed ourselves before God struck the whole lot of them dead lol We had no sin in our lives we were living just as we always had believed just as we always had. Nothing changed in our lives as far as our ministry went or or "Revelation of God"


We still hear rumors and are asked questions about that time.
We have been asked if we are still separating our milk dishes from our meat???
We have been asked if we were re-baptized in the trinity
We were accused of not believing Jesus was risen or crucified.
We were accused of um mm being too flirty? lol

I was actually told by a preachers wife if I shake one mans hand make sure to shake three womens hands before I shake another mans hand.

We left a church once and the pastor told us if you move to another town or state you can leave but if you dint you can not leave. When we decided to leave anyways... that is when the rumors started flying:bolt :bolt :bolt
Because if you leave a church that means one thing ... your wrong or they are.
That isn't always the truth. Sometimes it is but sometimes your visions are different.
Why do people rail on the church. Well from my experience weather you leave truth for truth or truth for another truth... you leave. And when you leave you branded .. cause either your wrong or there wrong.

I agree we're taught we're right... being UPCI. I grew up in a small church and basically was taught the big church across town was wrong. Our church is the best church in the world and you can only be saved here. Both UPCI Churches but one allowed short sleeves and pin and the things that were WORLDLY LOL. Basically were taught if you don't look like or believe just like us no matter what org your in your not saved. We teach what our pastor preaches and not what the bible teaches. We don't study to show ourselves approved we foolishly believe what is being taught. For some of us were lucky to have grown up in the truth because if not we could be sacrificing to idols.

I have been to churches where it was a sin to wear a watch and in others you could wear a watch but no gold. and others only if you have a leather band. Churches where you could wear suspenders but no belt buckles. OH MY no open toed shoes .. "toe cleavage" Even to a church where you couldn't wear a bow in your hair or a dress that was red. OK guys am I making the Churches you left seem easy to live in :) Its crazy the things we call "truth" but by God if you leave it then you are lost for sure.... this is the reason people rail on the UPCI cause it is the truth they know... and when they see that it isn't all it claims to be.... that alot of it is a man's teaching... they are shuned..labeled and dis fellowshipped.

And every time you run up the street you see those people who have prayed and fasted and done fund raisers with you and they look down on you and treat you as if you had some sort of disease. Alot of times by instruction of the leadership.

You shall know them by their love one to another.

so why should that bug you? Well someone has bugs eating on there fruit... cause your sure not seeing that love one to another. If were so backslidden and lost as you think we are shouldn't you try to help me... love me... and show me more of God? But unfortunately most of the time your head is pushed further under water till you stop fighting and just quit trying and just go under hoping someone will be there to take the brick off you head and help you up. Sad part.. if your brother/sister hadn't put that brick there and held it fast you would of been fine. And now you need a new breath of life.

[Carpenter]

Ok... I have grown up in UPCI. Have attended churches that were UPCI but pastor gave it to Independent church to pastor. I have seen Charismatic Churches and all aspects between. I currently hold to the "standards" that UPC holds and have no intentions of changing that.
My husband and I have left ONENESS Churches to go to other ONENESS Churches because we just didn't feel like we fit in with the vision of that pastor.

Awesome post. You know what has never ceased to amaze me is the continuity in experiences like this.

I do not know you, I don't know what church, what city or what pastors you have encountered. The amazing fact is that SOOO many unacquainted people could give this exact experience and they are tied together by the same organization.

This is a tremendous example of how and why I believe soooo strongly that above many other things, the UPC/A-church has a reigning culture that enforces, encourages, and even gives credence to some of their doctrines.

The problem? Well, maybe it could be that the disunity could be solved by the church actually admitting to themselves that there is something wrong with their culture but they would have to admit first they even HAVE a religious culture.

[Sherri]

Awesome post. You know what has never ceased to amaze me is the continuity in experiences like this.
I do not know you, I don't know what church, what city or what pastors you have encountered. The amazing fact is that SOOO many unacquainted people could give this exact experience and they are tied together by the same organization.

This is a tremendous example of how and why I believe soooo strongly that above many other things, the UPC/A-church has a reigning culture that enforces, encourages, and even gives credence to some of their doctrines.

The problem? Well, maybe it could be that the disunity could be solved by the church actually admitting to themselves that there is something wrong with their culture but they would have to admit first they even HAVE a religious culture.
Man, I think we've been away from all this for so long, you tend to forget some of the craziness that exists! Thank the Lord we didn't have anything quite like this stuff in our years of experience. Most of our experiences were positive and productive.

[rgcraig]

.....and Darty, that's not bashing - that's just some of the crazy truth out there!

[Coonskinner]

Good grief.

[Darty]

Good grief.

LOL :igotit

[Darty]

.....and Darty, that's not bashing - that's just some of the crazy truth out there!

RG... and I had to cut it short.. oh if I had all the time to just let things roll out of my head that I know... It is amazing the things we have been through in our ministry for the LORD! lol Sometimes I really understand the song the kids signed the other day I am crucified with Christ and yet I live.

I don't seek to bash any org or belief but do really understand that we are all so far from where we should be. There are things I have been taught as truths all my life that as an adult I look at and say ...thats not right lol. Its crazy the things we hold as heaven or hell issues and how quickly we judge and send folks to hell over things that are not even issues at all. I love the truth I have and am so ashamed of the thought of the truth I thought I had and found out it was a bag full of holes. I pray I am an example of HIM and fear that great response set before me... to teach my children the truth and how to truly walk with Him and be like Him. The hardest part is once you see truth... how do you deal with the church and there conceptions of truth. I told my husband once it would be so much easier to live what I believe if we moved far away from family an friends... and how they think I should do, say and act. Church is suppose to be a place of freedom peace joy and love... and I just don't see it much anymore. I go because I'm suppose I live like I do because that is what I am suppose to do and I act like I do because I am just me :)
Although if we moved away and changed things in our lives I wouldn't change the way I look or act but there would be some changes....that would spin the heads of those who know me well :friend
Just find it hard to call things sin that I use to call sin so easily and to label folks sinners that have more of God working in there lives then 95% of the folks sitting on the pew with me.

[Darty]

I promise I wont write such long post all the time.. there is so much I want to say an so little time to bore you :tiphat

[rgcraig]

I promise I wont write such long post all the time.. there is so much I want to say an so little time to bore you :tiphat

Not a problem - just break them up into more paragraphs - easier to read that way!

[Sherri]

RG... and I had to cut it short.. oh if I had all the time to just let things roll out of my head that I know... It is amazing the things we have been through in our ministry for the LORD! lol Sometimes I really understand the song the kids signed the other day I am crucified with Christ and yet I live.

I don't seek to bash any org or belief but do really understand that we are all so far from where we should be. There are things I have been taught as truths all my life that as an adult I look at and say ...thats not right lol. Its crazy the things we hold as heaven or hell issues and how quickly we judge and send folks to hell over things that are not even issues at all. I love the truth I have and am so ashamed of the thought of the truth I thought I had and found out it was a bag full of holes. I pray I am an example of HIM and fear that great response set before me... to teach my children the truth and how to truly walk with Him and be like Him. The hardest part is once you see truth... how do you deal with the church and there conceptions of truth. I told my husband once it would be so much easier to live what I believe if we moved far away from family an friends... and how they think I should do, say and act. Church is suppose to be a place of freedom peace joy and love... and I just don't see it much anymore. I go because I'm suppose I live like I do because that is what I am suppose to do and I act like I do because I am just me :)
Although if we moved away and changed things in our lives I wouldn't change the way I look or act but there would be some changes....that would spin the heads of those who know me well :friend
Just find it hard to call things sin that I use to call sin so easily and to label folks sinners that have more of God working in there lives then 95% of the folks sitting on the pew with me.
Sounds like you are listening to the heart of God, and not just men. Keep your heart pure and open before Him; He will guide you into all truth.

[LadyRev]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

1. They don't have anything better to do.

2. They don't have anything better to do.

3. They don't have anything better to do.

4. No, they don't.

[CupCake]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

 I say it’s for the same reason why UPCer do these things as well~

[COOPER]

Originally Posted by Malvaro
Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left?

Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious....

Because it is family and family hurts are the worse.

Family Rejections are the worst.

Family issues still live on.

UPC will not say they are wrong or even sorry.

UPC will not even admit to anything wrong.

UPC dis-fellowships there own kind after they leave, especially ministry.

Maybe we are just trying to get through and save a few?



And being heard is never a waste of time.

[Carpenter]

Good grief.

You are probably saying that because of this quote right?

The problem? Well, maybe it could be that the disunity could be solved by the church actually admitting to themselves that there is something wrong with their culture but they would have to admit first they even HAVE a religious culture.

I know the power of God and the ministry of the Holy Ghost is tremendous and at work in the church, however, when you live in a big city and you have family who live in big cities, and you have friends in big cities all with several surrounding UPC churches you get a pretty good idea of what is keeping these churches from fellowship and unity.

When someone prohibits fellowship and even preaches against their brother's church in another part of the city because they are not up to par in terms of insignificant personal convictions and outward expression of worship, they are not both UNITED pentecostal churches.

It gets me pretty upset in fact when I hear a UPC preacher talking over the pulpit or even in private circles about another UPC church that the church a neighboring suburb is dead because people aren't bouncing off the walls or because that pastor is a little simple minded or nerdy, etc.!!

[COOPER]

You are probably saying that because of this quote right?



I know the power of God and the ministry of the Holy Ghost is tremendous and at work in the church, however, when you live in a big city and you have family who live in big cities, and you have friends in big cities all with several surrounding UPC churches you get a pretty good idea of what is keeping these churches from fellowship and unity.

When someone prohibits fellowship and even preaches against their brother's church in another part of the city because they are not up to par in terms of insignificant personal convictions and outward expression of worship, they are not both UNITED pentecostal churches.

It gets me pretty upset in fact when I hear a UPC preacher talking over the pulpit or even in private circles about another UPC church that the church a neighboring suburb is dead because people aren't bouncing off the walls or because that pastor is a little simple minded or nerdy, etc.!!

Heavy stuff man........:hmmm

We as a church would check out other churches if we were their for a Sectional rally.

I would Check out the holiness of the youth or was the music worldly...etc

Whatch'n out for make-up, trimmed hair.

Or look at the Pastors wifes ring....and then talk about how big that rock was....:winkgrin

I was UPC for 17 years... I know the drill.

Most of the time at Rallies and conferences it was a Fashion show.

I have noticed that Now, UPC women frequent the tanning bed.

Those white UPC women are dark!!: :toofunny

[Neck]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D

I can tell you my point of view is only in reflection. To when the at any cost folks support the organization no matter the situation.

[SDG]

It gets me pretty upset in fact when I hear a UPC preacher talking over the pulpit or even in private circles about another UPC church that the church a neighboring suburb is dead because people aren't bouncing off the walls or because that pastor is a little simple minded or nerdy, etc.!!

Sad but true.

[3rdxCharm]

Why are some folks so set on heckling/bashing the very organization they willingly chose to walk away from?
Why aren't they content knowing they never have to set foot in the doors of a UPC church again?
Why do they keep beating the drum of the same arguments and complaints, months and yet sometimes years after they left? :beatdeadhorse


Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Just curious.... :D


How many times have I gone to the movies only to find a UPC'er on vacation sitting next to me or doing something else that doesn't follow the UPC standards? So many UPC'ers live one life in/at the church but another when they think no one is looking. I chose to leave the church because I felt I was being a hypocrite by not following the standards. Sure makes it hard for someone like me to understand. So, maybe we are not bashing but just trying to understand how some can say one thing but do another.....

[Coonskinner]

You are probably saying that because of this quote right?



I know the power of God and the ministry of the Holy Ghost is tremendous and at work in the church, however, when you live in a big city and you have family who live in big cities, and you have friends in big cities all with several surrounding UPC churches you get a pretty good idea of what is keeping these churches from fellowship and unity.

When someone prohibits fellowship and even preaches against their brother's church in another part of the city because they are not up to par in terms of insignificant personal convictions and outward expression of worship, they are not both UNITED pentecostal churches.

It gets me pretty upset in fact when I hear a UPC preacher talking over the pulpit or even in private circles about another UPC church that the church a neighboring suburb is dead because people aren't bouncing off the walls or because that pastor is a little simple minded or nerdy, etc.!!

Carp,

To be honest with you, I said what I said just for a little comic relief.

I haven't followed the thread too closely.

We've been over this stuff so many times over the years that I don't figure you and I have all that much new material to use on one another. :)

[COOPER]

Coonskinner
This message is hidden because Coonskinner is on your ignore list.

:ignore :ignore :ignore

[Jekyll]

Awesome post. You know what has never ceased to amaze me is the continuity in experiences like this.

I do not know you, I don't know what church, what city or what pastors you have encountered. The amazing fact is that SOOO many unacquainted people could give this exact experience and they are tied together by the same organization.

This is a tremendous example of how and why I believe soooo strongly that above many other things, the UPC/A-church has a reigning culture that enforces, encourages, and even gives credence to some of their doctrines.

The problem? Well, maybe it could be that the disunity could be solved by the church actually admitting to themselves that there is something wrong with their culture but they would have to admit first they even HAVE a religious culture.
You don't think this happens in baptist, AoG, or non denominational orgs??

[OGIA]

maybe we are .... just trying to understand how some can say one thing but do another.....Simple --- "they" say one thing and do another just like all the rest of us. It's called being human.

[originalsecretplace]

"toe cleavage"




Good Grief!!!!

:slaphappy :slaphappy :slaphappy :slaphappy

[Jekyll]

Heavy stuff man........:hmmm

We as a church would check out other churches if we were their for a Sectional rally.

I would Check out the holiness of the youth or was the music worldly...etc

Whatch'n out for make-up, trimmed hair.

Or look at the Pastors wifes ring....and then talk about how big that rock was....:winkgrin

I was UPC for 17 years... I know the drill.

Most of the time at Rallies and conferences it was a Fashion show.

I have noticed that Now, UPC women frequent the tanning bed.

Those white UPC women are dark!!: :toofunny
So....being shallow is the org's fault and/or the preacher's fault...:grampa

[originalsecretplace]

You don't think this happens in baptist, AoG, or non denominational orgs??

You may be absolutely correct... Anyone Anywhere can be guilty of this including ourselves.

What makes it so sad is that this is done for "holiness" sake where real holiness is treating our brothers and sisters as we would treat Christ.

I shudder sometimes over what I and others say or do in the name of "holiness".

I hope and pray God opens our eyes for our own sakes as well as the sakes of those we have in the past and do now reject, neglect and offend because of the beam in our eye.

Maybe instead of hiding behind the "obedience to those who rule over you" excuse we should stand up for what is right -- how I treat my brother and sister shows my love toward God. I can't say I love God and do those things to my bros & Sis in Christ.

[freeatlast]

So....being shallow is the org's fault and/or the preacher's fault...:grampa

yes. in many cases it is.

[originalsecretplace]

yes. in many cases it is.

It can be if that's what being taught by example over the puplit. But everyone is accountable for their own actions whether in the pew or in the pulpit.

That's why ot so important to find out if what is being taught or if your being led by the right knid of example. We would be able to point a finger and say "it's my pastor's fault".

[Tina]

Coonskinner
This message is hidden because Coonskinner is on your ignore list.

:ignore :ignore :ignore

But did you leave the message ignored or open the little box and read it anyway because you just couldn't resist? That's what would always happen to me on NFCF. I'd get kinda irritated at someone's posts-- and put them on ignore. Then after a couple of days I'd be opening those boxes to read their posts anyway... but at least I eventually learned to stop responding to things that got me riled up. :toofunny

[rgcraig]

Heavy stuff man........:hmmm

We as a church would check out other churches if we were their for a Sectional rally.

I would Check out the holiness of the youth or was the music worldly...etc

Whatch'n out for make-up, trimmed hair.

Or look at the Pastors wifes ring....and then talk about how big that rock was....:winkgrin

I was UPC for 17 years... I know the drill.

Most of the time at Rallies and conferences it was a Fashion show.

I have noticed that Now, UPC women frequent the tanning bed.

Those white UPC women are dark!!: :toofunny
Coop,

The tanning bed keeps them from having to wear makeup or be out in the sun in bathing suits.

[Coonskinner]

But did you leave the message ignored or open the little box and read it anyway because you just couldn't resist? That's what would always happen to me on NFCF. I'd get kinda irritated at someone's posts-- and put them on ignore. Then after a couple of days I'd be opening those boxes to read their posts anyway... but at least I eventually learned to stop responding to things that got me riled up. :toofunny

One of Coop's many misconceptions is that he thinks it bothers me that he has me on ignore.:)

[Carpenter]

Carp,

To be honest with you, I said what I said just for a little comic relief.

I haven't followed the thread too closely.

We've been over this stuff so many times over the years that I don't figure you and I have all that much new material to use on one another. :)

Yea, you're right it's been fun hitting each other over the head with these here blow up baseball bats.... :winkgrin

[Carpenter]

You don't think this happens in baptist, AoG, or non denominational orgs??

I am neither baptist, AoG or any member of a denominational organization...so I cannot say anything about them.

It would be like telling you what it is like being a democrat. :D

[Darty]

So....being shallow is the org's fault and/or the preacher's fault...:grampa

no that is a sign that they went to a small UPC church :)

[Jekyll]

I am neither baptist, AoG or any member of a denominational organization...so I cannot say anything about them.

It would be like telling you what it is like being a democrat. :D
You have gone on about this like it is just a UPC/Apostolic thing...what do you want? Do you want to be a part of one of the afore mentioned groups? Last I checked, there is no "Jesus" denomination, as I don't think anyone is egotistical enough to create a movement that is just like Jesus...

You rave against the beliefs of UPC/Apostolics. Everyone says, "Oh NOOOOoooo...you just ask pertinent questions..." Well, no, you are frustrated with it...You don't want to be wrong about it, so you make excuses for not believing in it...You discount it down to culture, you deny that there is power in what we as Apostolics believe...

You deny the link to COOP but....

It's just a matter of COOP's Laurel to Carps Hardy

[Jekyll]

yes. in many cases it is.
It's always someone else's fault for how we act...:nah

[Carpenter]

You have gone on about this like it is just a UPC/Apostolic thing...what do you want? Do you want to be a part of one of the afore mentioned groups? Last I checked, there is no "Jesus" denomination, as I don't think anyone is egotistical enough to create a movement that is just like Jesus...

You rave against the beliefs of UPC/Apostolics. Everyone says, "Oh NOOOOoooo...you just ask pertinent questions..." Well, no, you are frustrated with it...You don't want to be wrong about it, so you make excuses for not believing in it...You discount it down to culture, you deny that there is power in what we as Apostolics believe...

You deny the link to COOP but....

It's just a matter of COOP's Laurel to Carps Hardy

Ok, I guess it is time for me to be gone, this isn't worth it anymore. You win.

Thanks...I really needed that. You are brutally wrong...brutally...no...more than brutally if there is a word stronger than brutally, I would use that word of how wrong you are.

[Jekyll]

Ok, I guess it is time for me to be gone, this isn't worth it anymore. You win.

Thanks...I really needed that. You are brutally wrong...brutally...no...more than brutally if there is a word stronger than brutally, I would use that word of how wrong you are.
I hope I got the Laurel and Hardy thing right...

Laurel was the bumbling goofy one, right??

[Malvaro]

Good Morning AFF!!!

[COOPER]

Good Morning AFF!!!

PRAISE THE LORD!!!! and the the name JESUS!!!