Hell Bound? Says who???

[Esther]

So I want an answer....did God send William Tyndale to Hell?

Yes, no, or leaving the judgment to God?

Was there a an Apostolic church in Tyndale's day? Who were they?

Is there a distinctly Apostolic Bible translation?

Explain why God would use Hell bound infidels to preserve, translate, and propagate His Word.

Should we use a translation translated by Trinitarians in honor of the Trinitarian "King James"?

No one can answer this but God.

[Esther]

CH although I see where you are going with your line of questioning, I have to make a comment. Even IF the translators did not fully understand what they were translating, they knew the language and could translate what it said.

Did they use the best translations? Some will probably say yes, and others no. Again, that could be based on personal interpretations.

God allowed the Bible to be transalated as it is, and to my knowledge has never told an Apostolic minister that it is unacceptable, therefore, until He does, I think it is safe to use it and depend on it.

JMO

P.S. Also, God used a donkey to get His message across, he could use a non-believer as well.

[Light]

When I see an Apostolic condemn all comers to Hell using a King James Bible I can think of only one word...ungrateful. They hate and condemn the very heritage of the Bible translation they love and cherish. The Jehovah's Witnesses used the same logic in their condemnation of all Christians before them, but they had the guts to produce their own translation. That's where this logic leads if consistently followed.

[Num 22:33] And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.

If God can use a ass surly he can make a human translate correctly.

You might try reading Isaiah. Trinidadians wish this book wasn't in the bible so how to you account for it being translated? Isaiah is ONE GOD, NO GOD BESIDE ME, I KNOW NO OTHER GOD. Do you honestly think a trinnie would translate Isaiah correctly if GOD didn't cause them to do it correctly?
It seem to me you don't give God much credit in keeping his word for mankind.

By the way arn't you UPC?

[Sept5SavedTeen]

God allowed the Bible to be transalated as it is, and to my knowledge has never told an Apostolic minister that it is unacceptable, therefore, until He does, I think it is safe to use it and depend on it.

Really?! You'd throw out your KJV if some Apostolic minister felt, from GOD that there was a better canon of Scripture and better translation? It be cool if he added or took away from the KJV? There is an Apostolic minister, Gino Jennings, in Philadelphia, they use the KJV, Apocrypha and Book of Jashur... Their website: www.truthofgod.net, and let me tell you, their holiness standards put us to shame.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Timmy]

Really?! You'd throw out your KJV if some Apostolic minister felt, from GOD that there was a better canon of Scripture and better translation? It be cool if he added or took away from the KJV? There is an Apostolic minister, Gino Jennings, in Philadelphia, they use the KJV, Apocrypha and Book of Jashur... Their website: www.truthofgod.net, and let me tell you, their holiness standards put us to shame.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

What, no Book of Enoch? ;)

[Esther]

Really?! You'd throw out your KJV if some Apostolic minister felt, from GOD that there was a better canon of Scripture and better translation? It be cool if he added or took away from the KJV? There is an Apostolic minister, Gino Jennings, in Philadelphia, they use the KJV, Apocrypha and Book of Jashur... Their website: www.truthofgod.net, and let me tell you, their holiness standards put us to shame.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Nope. God would have to speak to ME personally.

My :tic post was an attempt to show IF there was something wrong with it He would have let us know long time ago. Not during this generation of deception.

JMO

[ChristopherHall]

[Num 22:33] And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.

If God can use a ass surly he can make a human translate correctly.

You might try reading Isaiah. Trinidadians wish this book wasn't in the bible so how to you account for it being translated? Isaiah is ONE GOD, NO GOD BESIDE ME, I KNOW NO OTHER GOD. Do you honestly think a trinnie would translate Isaiah correctly if GOD didn't cause them to do it correctly?
It seem to me you don't give God much credit in keeping his word for mankind.

By the way arn't you UPC?

I'm not officially licensed UPC but I attend a UPCI church. My position is similar to Rev. David K. Bernard's,

“God alone will judge the salvation of each person
(Romans 2:16; Hebrews 12:23). No human being can condemn
a soul to hell or guarantee him a place in heaven, for
salvation is a matter between the individual and God.
The Lord taught us not to judge each other, but to
judge ourselves and leave the judgment of others to God
(Matthew 7:1-5; Luke 6:37). Jesus did not come to condemn
the world but to offer salvation (John 3:17), and we
should do likewise. We should proclaim the gospel,
encourage obedience to it, and warn of the biblically prescribed
consequences for disobedience, but the final
results rest in God’s hands.”
– David K. Bernard, The New Birth Experience

I don't see how non-Apostolics, primarily of concern are those in history, interpreted Acts 2:38 as we do. Therefore I cannot say with certainty that they are saved...however, I also cannot say with certainty that they were lost. I believe it's best to leave this sort of thing up to God. When witnessing to devout Trinitarians I typically share what I understand and express how I feel they are gambling with their souls if they obey tradition over Bible. It works a lot better than saying, "You're a bunch of Hell bound non-Christians!" lol

[clgustaveson]

Is ok to do this if you are hell bound too?

[stmatthew]

So I want an answer....did God send William Tyndale to Hell?

Yes, no, or leaving the judgment to God?

Was there a an Apostolic church in Tyndale's day? Who were they?

Is there a distinctly Apostolic Bible translation?

Explain why God would use Hell bound infidels to preserve, translate, and propagate His Word.

Should we use a translation translated by Trinitarians in honor of the Trinitarian "King James"?

IF Tyndale obeyed the gospel by repenting, being baptized in Jesus name, and received the Holy Ghost, and lived being led by the spirit, then he is saved according to scriptures. If he did not, then I do not believe he made the city.

For anyone that cannot accept the above, I would say you probably do not really believe that Acts 2:38-40 is our response to the gospel message, and is not necessary for salvation.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Nope. God would have to speak to ME personally.

My :tic post was an attempt to show IF there was something wrong with it He would have let us know long time ago. Not during this generation of deception.

JMO

Oh, so you're your own authority on what you will accept as Scripture...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Timmy]

Nope. God would have to speak to ME personally.

My :tic post was an attempt to show IF there was something wrong with it He would have let us know long time ago. Not during this generation of deception.

JMO

So, just wondering. How did the Apocrypha get kicked out of the original KJV?

[ChristopherHall]

IF Tyndale obeyed the gospel by repenting, being baptized in Jesus name, and received the Holy Ghost, and lived being led by the spirit, then he is saved according to scriptures. If he did not, then I do not believe he made the city.

For anyone that cannot accept the above, I would say you probably do not really believe that Acts 2:38-40 is our response to the gospel message, and is not necessary for salvation.

I'd say I think it's difficult to see him having been saved also, however only God is qualified to judge.

For example, men like Tyndale didn't stand against Acts 2:38, they just misunderstood it. Surely Tyndale believed in one God, however he was most likely taught the Trinitarian "mystery". Most of your average Trinitarians however appear to believe in Oneness as Bernard pointed out in his book The Oneness of God. Tyndale most likely believed in repentance from sin and that water baptism was necessary for salvation. However Tyndale was probably subject to the prevailing tradition of his day and baptized in traditional fashion. We don’t know what kind of depth his prayer life may have had. However we know that many men experienced deep “ecstasy” with ecstatic weeping, moaning, and unintelligible sobbing. Many of these “ecstatic” experiences were most likely Holy Ghost baptisms though they didn’t know it as we do or use the terms we use today (remember for most the Bible wasn’t something they could just read whenever they liked, nor were they allowed to interpret it without a priest’s guidance). So it could be argued that Tyndale did obey Acts 2:38…however, he obeyed it imperfectly due to tradition and the prevailing institutional church of his day.

If Tyndale was a man who merely counted himself to be a believer, being un-baptized in any fashion, and void of any spiritual baptism of the Holy Ghost…I’d say it’s nearly a sure bet he didn’t make it. However, if a man has repented of sin, been water baptized, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost (no matter how imperfect their understanding or implementation) I’d say they stand a chance at Heaven because God can have mercy on imperfect understanding as one seeks to obey the Word as best as they can. Ultimately God alone is the judge.

Again I will present a passage of Scripture nobody has addressed….

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

In the Judgment there is the possibility that men like Tyndale, who obeyed God’s Word as best as they understood it, will be judged to a lesser degree than those who had known the truth and rejected it.

Heaven isn’t a Spiritual Communistic place. There are degrees of reward and appointment in Heaven.

So with men like Tyndale I’d say it’s best not to judge, but rather allow God to judge the heart.

Thoughts?

[stmatthew]

I'd say I think it's difficult to see him having been saved also, however only God is qualified to judge.

For example, men like Tyndale didn't stand against Acts 2:38, they just misunderstood it. Surely Tyndale believed in one God, however he was most likely taught the Trinitarian "mystery". Most of your average Trinitarians however appear to believe in Oneness as Bernard pointed out in his book The Oneness of God. Tyndale most likely believed in repentance from sin and that water baptism was necessary for salvation. However Tyndale was probably subject to the prevailing tradition of his day and baptized in traditional fashion. We don’t know what kind of depth his prayer life may have had. However we know that many men experienced deep “ecstasy” with ecstatic weeping, moaning, and unintelligible sobbing. Many of these “ecstatic” experiences were most likely Holy Ghost baptisms though they didn’t know it as we do or use the terms we use today (remember for most the Bible wasn’t something they could just read whenever they liked, nor were they allowed to interpret it without a priest’s guidance). So it could be argued that Tyndale did obey Acts 2:38…however, he obeyed it imperfectly due to tradition and the prevailing institutional church of his day.

If Tyndale was a man who merely counted himself to be a believer, being un-baptized in any fashion, and void of any spiritual baptism of the Holy Ghost…I’d say it’s nearly a sure bet he didn’t make it. However, if a man has repented of sin, been water baptized, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost (no matter how imperfect their understanding or implementation) I’d say they stand a chance at Heaven because God can have mercy on imperfect understanding as one seeks to obey the Word as best as they can.

Again I will present a passage of Scripture nobody has addressed….

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

In the Judgment there is the possibility that men like Tyndale, who obeyed God’s Word as best as they understood it, will be judged to a lesser degree than those who had known the truth and rejected it.

Heaven isn’t a Spiritual Communistic place. There are degrees of reward and appointment in Heaven.

So with men like Tyndale I’d say it’s best not to judge, but rather allow God to judge the heart.

Thoughts?


Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I would disagree with you because of this verse. I do not believe that anyone can truly hunger after God and not come to the Apostolic truth we hold dear. Somewhere along the way, they stop hungering, or accept what is around them, or something else. No one was preaching the holy ghost when Parham left his students to find out what was the biblical pattern for the holy ghost. No one was preaching Jesus name baptism when the one man (can't remember his name) got up and started the "new issue". These men hungered for more of God, and God continued to fill them with revelation.

[Ron]

Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I would disagree with you because of this verse. I do not believe that anyone can truly hunger after God and not come to the Apostolic truth we hold dear. Somewhere along the way, they stop hungering, or accept what is around them, or something else. No one was preaching the holy ghost when Parham left his students to find out what was the biblical pattern for the holy ghost. No one was preaching Jesus name baptism when the one man (can't remember his name) got up and started the "new issue". These men hungered for more of God, and God continued to fill them with revelation.

Amen!!

[ChristopherHall]

Here’s a thought…

Do we trust our interpretation of the Scriptures more than God’s judgment when it comes to judgment of the soul?

Or…

Do we trust God’s judgment more than we trust our interpretation of Scripture, regardless of how “correct” we feel our view is?

Truth be told…while I firmly believe that the Apostolic movement is the closest to expressing what the Apostles originally taught, I’m not so proud of my religious understanding that I can’t consider that I may be mistaken. I have “faith” that this way is right…and I leave the rest to God.

[stmatthew]

Here’s a thought…

Do we trust our interpretation of the Scriptures more than God’s judgment when it comes to judgment of the soul?

Or…

Do we trust God’s judgment more than we trust our interpretation of Scripture, regardless of how “correct” we feel our view is?

Truth be told…while I firmly believe that the Apostolic movement is the closest to expressing what the Apostles originally taught, I’m not so proud of my religious understanding that I can’t consider that I may be mistaken. I have “faith” that this way is right…and I leave the rest to God.

If I was not completely sold on the doctrine of salvation that I espouse, I would not hold it as the only method of salvation. Could I be wrong? If I had any doubts as to being correct, I would not claim to be Apostolic ever again.

So your answer is, yes, I believe I can trust what I believe the bible states to be the measure of obtaining salvation.

[DividedThigh]

as a general rule it is best not to judge anyone, let god do it, it is his job not ours, that attitude always hurts others and gets us into trouble with god, dt:crazywalls

[stmatthew]

as a general rule it is best not to judge anyone, let god do it, it is his job not ours, that attitude always hurts others and gets us into trouble with god, dt:crazywalls

Every time the gospel is preached, someone is being judged. Every time sin is exposed scripturally, someone is being judged. The Word will hit its mark.

[DividedThigh]

Every time the gospel is preached, someone is being judged. Every time sin is exposed scripturally, someone is being judged. The Word will hit its mark.

in my opinion preaching the word and the like is god doing it through his message, and spirit, i am referring to the preponderence so many seem to have with judging others, from the past, or present bro, dt i leave that in the hands of god, :bliss

[ChristopherHall]

Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I would disagree with you because of this verse. I do not believe that anyone can truly hunger after God and not come to the Apostolic truth we hold dear. Somewhere along the way, they stop hungering, or accept what is around them, or something else. No one was preaching the holy ghost when Parham left his students to find out what was the biblical pattern for the holy ghost. No one was preaching Jesus name baptism when the one man (can't remember his name) got up and started the "new issue". These men hungered for more of God, and God continued to fill them with revelation.

You bring up an excellent point, those that hunger and thirst after “righteousness” will be filled. But as Luke 12:47-48 illustrates those that hunger and thirst after righteousness are judged justly, they that know the master’s will and didn’t prepare themselves are judged more harshly than those who didn’t know their master’s will and did things worthy of punishment. The texts have to “agree” not contradict. So we have two servants in Christ’s teaching. Both are servants (Christians) and evidently thirst after their master’s desire. One discovered their master’s desire and refused to obey…the other didn’t understand their master’s desire and did things worthy of punishment…and so his master had greater mercy upon him. This is a just master.

Which of you would punish their child for something they never understood though that child was doing their best according to what they understood? Which of you would disown him? Is this the kind of Heavenly Father we have?

We serve a God far richer in mercy than we are dear friends.

I think it’s a valid question.

It’s also important to note that men like Parham and McAlister who pressed into Apostolic Pentecostal truths approached this subject as I am. They saw themselves as the next step in God’s restoration of his church. They even continued to preach in non-Apostolic and non-Pentecostal pulpits and churches when permitted.

I feel the REAL issue is inherited bitterness. You see, a number of Trinitarians saw no issue with Oneness teaching. In the beginning the Assemblies of God was composed of both Trinitarian and Oneness Pentecostals, and we even preached conferences together. However there were quite a few that feared for their own positions and were afraid to challenge tradition as more traditional saints began to murmur. When these Trinitarian Pentecostals used their religious authority to condemn Oneness Pentecostals it divided churches, families, and friends. The pain and rejection was so great both sides began to condemn the other to Hell. Soon the ousted Oneness brethren assembled and formed various Apostolic organizations and soon the UPCI was formed. This bitterness and sense of rejection has remained with us to this day. The pioneers of Oneness Pentecost didn’t see themselves as the only ones with a chance to be saved. They saw themselves as the next great step in God’s restoration of the Church. Every great denomination began as a movement. But when they began to believe they had a monopoly on truth and salvation they froze and became just another denomination going no deeper. We used to be a “revival movement” seeking to revive dead and traditional Christianity wherever we went. Today we’ve become so important in our own eyes we’ve begun to think we have a monopoly on truth and salvation.

No doubt in my mind that the Apostles preached repentance, water baptism in Jesus name, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. However, I refrain from judgment and leave the judgment of devout Christians who didn’t have this understanding in the hands of God. For God alone is qualified to judge.

If you’re a non-Apostolic Christian reading this post, I want you to know that God has MORE for you. I also want you to realize that the Apostles taught repentance, water baptism in Jesus name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost as taught in Acts 2:28. Any attempt to serve God outside of what the Apostles taught is adherence to a tradition. Traditions cannot save…in fact they hinder us from being all God desires us to be. Tradition can blind us from deeper understandings and experiences in God. I wouldn’t want to gamble with my soul for the sake of tradition or a denomination. I’d want all God intended me to have. Pray and seek the Lord about attending a local Apostolic assembly where you can obey Acts 2:38. Then you can experience the fullness of New Testament salvation that the Apostles originally preached on the day of Pentecost. All other ground is sinking sand.

[Esther]

Oh, so you're your own authority on what you will accept as Scripture...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

How on Earth did you come up with that????:bliss:reaction

[Steve Epley]

I did NOT realize Tyndale was the standard?

I thought Jesus and the Words of the Apostles were the standard?

And I do believe in his day someone was preaching Acts 2:38 without a doubt.

[ChristopherHall]

I did NOT realize Tyndale was the standard?

Tyndale isn't the standard. However...IT IS WRITTEN....

Luke 12:47-48
" 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Tyndale was a servant who "knew not".

I thought Jesus and the Words of the Apostles were the standard?

Who was speaking in Luke 12:47-48?

A.) Peter
B.) Jesus
C.) Ronald MacDonald

Last I checked Jesus is the one who spoke in Luke 12:47-48 regarding God's just judgment when dealing with those who don't have a perfect understanding of their master's will.

And I do believe in his day someone was preaching Acts 2:38 without a doubt.

Can you provide evidence of who and what church was doing this? If not...you run the risk of telling us a lie. It would be better to admit that you don't know if there was an Apostolic church for Tyndale to attend than to assume and tell us all that there was when there wasn't.

[Steve Epley]

Tyndale isn't the standard. However...IT IS WRITTEN....

Luke 12:47-48
" 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Tyndale was a servant who "knew not".



Who was speaking in Luke 12:47-48?

A.) Peter
B.) Jesus
C.) Ronald MacDonald

Last I checked Jesus is the one who spoke in Luke 12:47-48 regarding God's just judgment when dealing with those who don't have a perfect understanding of their master's will.



Can you provide evidence of who and what church was doing this? If not...you run the risk of telling us a lie. It would be better to admit that you don't know if there was an Apostolic church for Tyndale to attend than to assume and tell us all that there was when there wasn't.

I trust the words of Jesus without a doubt "the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail."
I believe Luke 12:47-48 concerns people IN the Kingdom not excusing folks NOT in the Kingdom. And you know what places you in the kingdom Jn.3:5, Acts 2:38.

[ChristopherHall]

Also consider,

Mark 9:38-40
" 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40For he that is not against us is on our part."

It's obvious that this individual was a total stranger to the disciples. Certainly this man didn't have a full understanding of all that the disciples understood. How did Jesus view him? We see that he's not counted as an enemy nor does Jesus speak condemnatory toward him. Condemnation toward those with limited knowledge and association has always been an issue for those walking closest to Christ.

[ChristopherHall]

I trust the words of Jesus without a doubt "the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail."
I believe Luke 12:47-48 concerns people IN the Kingdom not excusing folks NOT in the Kingdom. And you know what places you in the kingdom Jn.3:5, Acts 2:38.

I agree that the gates of Hell did not prevail. Please note something about that verse...it reads that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church. That means that in the very wording of the verse we see a church assulting the gates of Hell and conquring the stronghold of the enemy. It depicts a war. In every war the battle lines wax and wane as forces advance and fall back. There have been conditions in which enemy forces had advanced on American forces...yet they were not to prevail...American forces regrouped and lead an all out assult pushing the enemy back into defeat and surrender. Don't be so simplistic as to think that just because we are promised that we will prevail that Hell cannot get the upperhand or that Hell has never had the upperhand. The promise is that the gates of Hell shall not prevail...and just when Hell thought it had Catholicized the church and had her bound in apostasy, just when Hell had the Bible chained to Catholic pulpits, just when Hell had the people ignorant and illiterate, just when Hell had seemingly ensured that the Bible would only be read in Latin...GOD breathed on his sleeping bride and embers of faith and a hunger for truth and righteousness began to burn. Men began to challenge the established Catholic church and her godless traditions. These men had read the Scriptures and found that while they didn't understand it all...they were discovering day be day that the Catholic church was wrong. Many gave their very lives. All were repentant, all used of God were water baptized (though perhaps incorrectly), all had experienced the Baptism of the Holy Ghost though they didn't know what it was and many simply called it "ecstatic ecstasy". You may find it interesting that Tyndale was rather hospitable to priests who were being lead to study the Scriptures and were hungry for truth. Do you know what Tyndale called this group? He called them simply, "apostolic brethren", in his writings. Prophetic? Perhaps. However God used him mightily to get the Bible translated into English. As each wave of restoration and revival swept the Church new truths were being discovered in God's Word, communion for memorial, baptism by emersion, believer's baptism, congregational structure as opposed to Papacy, faith, holiness, Holy Ghost infilling, the Oneness of God, and Jesus name baptism.

Friend...it's the story of an epic battle. There were days when it seemed all was lost. There were days when Hell crucified and burned those striving to be faithful to Holy writ. However, just as Jesus promised, the gates of Hell did not prevail. Christ's Words were clear...there would be a battle. Certainly the purpose of his Words was to encourage the Church as she endured these long years of apostasy and persecution. I can see men bound in stocks for reading the Bible...though they didn't know all it taught...they knew it had the answers and the Catholic Church was corrupt. In their eyes you can see a fire and faith for Christ's words..."the gates of Hell shall not prevail".

And they didn't!

Today God has restored his bride to her Apostolic beauty. The movements of yester year have no power, like old manna, their substance has long vanished. Searching for the truth we've received they're uniting to share in their "dialogue of faith"...what they don't see is that we have received the most recent revelation of God's truth. We are the revival we've all been praying for. One by one these denominations are falling to greater and greater error. In their unity they are being positioned to unite once more with the Catholic Church and then they will have completed their rejection of truth, the cup of judgment will be full, and the Harlot will be judged.

I have in my hands a King James Bible. Certainly if God has always had a church like unto ourselves in every age we would know who they were. Certainly they would have preserved God's Word and we would have had no need to receive the Bible as it was unchained from Catholic pulpits. Since there would have always been a church there would have always been an available Bible! Where is that Apostolic Bible? And better yet...if there isn't an Apostolic Bible...how was there a church like unto our own if they had no Bible?

We know that Jesus said that a man must be born of water and Spirit. Most Reformers were indeed water baptized, though in the only way they knew. Many have written things that make us wonder if they may have even received the baptism of the Holy Ghost during their studies and search for truth. Yes, there was much tradition clouding their vision...however they were staggering toward the light as a loving Savior beckoned them. And you wouldn't even have a Bible today if God didn't use them to provide it. I praise God for them. And I refuse to stand in condemnatory judgment against them. Nor will I assume that I know for certain that they were saved. I will simply allow God to be their judge.

Remeber, Acts 2:38 shows us the proper way to be born of water and Spirit. However, we risk playing God if we pretend that God is incapable of having mercy on those who have sought to obey and did so imperfectly. We serve a merciful God.

Luke 12:47-48
" 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Only God is qualified to judge a soul who obeyed in the best manner they knew.

I assure you I'm for all three steps (repentance, water baptism in Jesus name, and infilling of the Holy Ghost). However, I will not rule out the possibility that God could choose to have mercy on those who performed those steps imperfectly. God alone is qualified to judge and show mercy. I leave him room to be God.

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Hall if a sincere Catholic young man or girl joins the priesthood or nuns will they be saved?
A sincere Mormon? Jehovah Witness?

[Sister Alvear]

You know dear ones everytime I read about sincere folks I weep...It is like a knife sticking into my stomach...I actually feel pain. I wonder why God´s servants are so slow reaching these sincere people...

[Light]

Bro. Hall if a sincere Catholic young man or girl joins the priesthood or nuns will they be saved?
A sincere Mormon? Jehovah Witness?

I am not Br. Hall but if what he has written on this thread is his truthful belief he will have no choice but to answer yes.

[Sister Alvear]

Hello Light...love you folks.

[Light]

Hello Light...love you folks.

Praise the Lord !!!
We had a wonderful time in Brazil with you. The stay in your home was worth millions. You,Br. Alvear and family and the people treated us like kings. I forgot to get the welcome sign that I wanted so bad. Maybe the next time I wont get sick. The doctor said my problem was dehydration.
I know you have been busy but when you get the time remember to get us the receipt of that wonderful chicken soup.
Love you all.

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Hall if a sincere Catholic young man or girl joins the priesthood or nuns will they be saved?
A sincere Mormon? Jehovah Witness?

Elder Hall?

[ChristopherHall]

Bro. Hall if a sincere Catholic young man or girl joins the priesthood or nuns will they be saved?
A sincere Mormon? Jehovah Witness?

I don't see how they could be saved. However, again, I leave the pronouncement of "judgment" to God. Same with Tyndale. I don't see how exactly Tyndale could be saved...however, I leave the judgment to God. God alone knows the thoughts and intents of the heart. God alone knows how much understanding they have had available to them. I don't see how anyone can be saved outside of Acts 2:38, but I leave the final judgment to God. This is why I repeatedly tell my Evangelical friends that unless one obeys the Gospel as it was preached in Acts 2 and applies it as Peter taught in Acts 2:38 they are gambling with their eternal soul.

The final judgment of the soul I leave to God.

[ChristopherHall]

I am not Br. Hall but if what he has written on this thread is his truthful belief he will have no choice but to answer yes.

Light, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. It is my responsibility to preach the gospel and to warn of Hell. It isn't my place to say who finally makes it and who doesn't. It's not my place to say who can and who can't.

There are many sincere believers that I know. I don't see how they can make it according to my understanding. But I leave that final judgment to God.

[Esther]

Light, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. It is my responsibility to preach the gospel and to warn of Hell. It isn't my place to say who finally makes it and who doesn't. It's not my place to say who can and who can't.

There are many sincere believers that I know. I don't see how they can make it according to my understanding. But I leave that final judgment to God.

This is post is the point of this thread. We know what we believe, however, it is presumptious of us to declare who is saved and who is not, based on OUR understanding of the scriptures.

The Pharisees were very devout religious men, they had the knowledge of Jesus coming and how He would come, yet they missed Him. We have the Words and understanding as we know it, but that doesn't make us any less prone to mistakes as the Pharisees were.

We should only allow God to put folks in hell.

JMO

[ChristopherHall]

This is post is the point of this thread. We know what we believe, however, it is presumptious of us to declare who is saved and who is not, based on OUR understanding of the scriptures.

The Pharisees were very devout religious men, they had the knowledge of Jesus coming and how He would come, yet they missed Him. We have the Words and understanding as we know it, but that doesn't make us any less prone to mistakes as the Pharisees were.

We should only allow God to put folks in hell.

JMO

Amen. I can see admitting that we don't know how a non-Apostolic made it. But notice...in saying this we leave the judgment to God and acknowledge our limitations.

Some here actually appear to be happy that souls are lost...as long as they are "right"! Some make condemning non-Apostolic souls an apparent benchmark for being "Apostolic". I assure you that I'm Apostolic...but I must also remind you that I'm not God.

[Esther]

Amen. I can see admitting that we don't know how a non-Apostolic made it. But notice...in saying this we leave the judgment to God and acknowledge our limitations.

Some here actually appear to be happy that souls are lost...as long as they are "right"! Some make condemning non-Apostolic souls an apparent benchmark for being "Apostolic". I assure you that I'm Apostolic...but I must also remind you that I'm not God.

Amen!

[stmatthew]

Light, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. It is my responsibility to preach the gospel and to warn of Hell. It isn't my place to say who finally makes it and who doesn't. It's not my place to say who can and who can't.

There are many sincere believers that I know. I don't see how they can make it according to my understanding. But I leave that final judgment to God.

I think we are talking on a discussion board with other saints, and not out in the public officially sending folks to hell. But I think it is foolish to think that someone is judging a sinner if they, by the unction of the holy ghost, tell that person they are lost and in need of a savior. Warning someone of their future sometimes is necessary for them to change direction.

Now as to those that have already died (i.e. Tyndale), how can anyone that believes Acts 2:38 is the only means of salvation not believe that someone that has not obeyed would be lost. IF there is any doubt in your mind as to what it takes to be saved, then you really do not believe what you say is "the only way". Its not judging, or sending someone to hell. You did not send anyone, nor can you ever send anyone, to hell. The fact is that those that do not obey Gods call go to hell. Again, we are on a discussion board with those that are of like faith (for the most part), so our conversation here would not be the same as it would be towards those that lose a loved one. But when someone asks if Tyndale was saved or lost, all I can do is answer according to scripture, lest someone interpret my silence to say that there is another way to be saved.

[Sister Alvear]

One of the kids just walked into my office singing, One,one, one, one way to God....
Everytime I hear a Brazilian sing that I am thankful once again He called me to be a missionary.

[ChristopherHall]

I think we are talking on a discussion board with other saints, and not out in the public officially sending folks to hell. But I think it is foolish to think that someone is judging a sinner if they, by the unction of the holy ghost, tell that person they are lost and in need of a savior. Warning someone of their future sometimes is necessary for them to change direction.

StMatthew,

We are on a public discussion board that the lost, backsliders, and non-Apostolic Christians can easily read. Some may have been witnessed to by an Apostolic and just be surfing the internet to see what we’re about and land here. So as long as it’s public…I think we should have caution, patience, and wisdom when discussing salvation and categorizing people as “hell bound” and “not hell bound”.

I have no issue with following the unction of the Holy Ghost. I’ll say things under the unction of the Holy Ghost that I’d never say of my own accord. There was a man named Dave at Echoing Valley Residential Center that I worked with. Dave went to a Church of God that taught that tongues were of the devil. He shared what his pastor taught on the issue and while there was obvious disagreement I remained cordial praying that God open his eyes. Dave was also our bus driver. One day I was assigned to go on the bus with him and assist with dropping residents off at Goodwill Industries, United Cerebral Palsy, and Calumet Center. Well, on the way back it was just us in the bus and he made a mocking remark about the gift of the Holy Ghost. Suddenly God came over me and I told him he was a two fold child of Hell who had spoken against and resisted the Holy Ghost. Bro…he looked at me like I had gone crazy. I found out after he had been let go that his sister had married a Pentecostal and our friend Dave had a lot of un-repented bitterness toward Pentecostals. Dave had heard the truth of the Holy Ghost and had been rejecting it and rejecting it. Apparently I was one of God’s many attempts to get through to him. But when God tells you to speak bro…I firmly believe in saying exactly what he tells us to speak.

I firmly believe there is a difference between resistance and ignorance. I’d never condemn or judge an ignorant person who just didn’t know or understand. However, I fear for those who do know and reject the truth. There’s a big difference in my book.

Now as to those that have already died (i.e. Tyndale), how can anyone that believes Acts 2:38 is the only means of salvation not believe that someone that has not obeyed would be lost. IF there is any doubt in your mind as to what it takes to be saved, then you really do not believe what you say is "the only way".

I see your logic. But a lot is being assumed there. If I absolutely believed that Acts 2:38 was the only way and I believed that there was absolutely no way I could be mistaken certainly I’d agree. But I make stakes daily. There are things I used to believe and teach and now I have to admit…I was mistaken. I firmly don’t believe I’m mistaken about Acts 2:38, but in all honesty…what if I’m wrong? What if the interpretation I’ve taken is too extreme leaving God little room to operate outside of the box I believe is “the only way”? In fact, Acts 2:38 isn’t “the only way”….Jesus is the way. All things are predicated upon Him and nothing else.

Here’s something to consider…only two things are commanded in Acts 2:38. Peter commands his listeners to repent and be baptized in Jesus name. He then “promises” them the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost isn’t something we’re commanded to do…it’s a promise we are promised to receive if we obey.

So now let’s consider someone who has repented of sin and been water baptized. They may not have had the right words spoken over them…but they sought to obey with all the knowledge and options they had available. Now let’s consider that they have had deep experiences with the Holy Ghost in prayer that they don’t understand. Do we condemn them? Is it possible that God can forgive them for trying their best to obey? I think it’s possible. We all have children that have done their best to please us. I remember when I was younger I tried to make my mother a cake for mother’s day. Brother…it was a mess. I had all the right ingredients…I just mixed them wrong. I even applied the icing wrong and tore it up somewhat. My mother looked at me and cried, bore me up, and hugged me. I did my best.

Ok…Tyndale and many others had repentance, water baptism, and some deep unexplainable experiences in the Holy Ghost. They didn’t know it…but the words spoke over them might have been incorrect. What are the right words? Do we say, “In the name of Jesus Christ be baptized!” Do we say, “According to the profession of your faith I hereby baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.”, or do we say, “I baptize you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sins!”? What are the exact words needed? Is it the words that matter….or is the obedience exemplified by the believer as they seek to be associated with Christ’s burial that matters? Will God say, “Ha! Sorry Tyndale, you had no idea but the guy who baptized you didn’t say the right words! Oh, I know you had never heard of ‘Jesus name baptism’, but you know what…you should have known better. Now burn baby burn!” I just can’t see it. Now…do I instantly put Tyndale in Heaven? Nope. That’s going too far in the other direction. I just give it to God and trust that he knows how to judge who best obeyed Acts 2:38 according to their best ability and understanding.

Bro…I’ve made many mistakes in my life. I’ve had incorrect ideas and notions of what the Bible taught. I’m going to give that one to God bro. I trust him more than I trust me. I trust him more than I trust our Elders (whom I greatly respect). Did Jesus fulfill all righteousness and die in our place to make up the difference in areas where we sin, fail, or are mistaken? We serve a merciful God. That’s why I differ all judgment to Him, even though I believe my understanding of Acts 2:38 is the correct viewpoint. I would never tell someone outside of the Apostolic movement that they were going to Heaven without a doubt. I have always indicated that outside of obedience to God’s plan as expressed in Acts 2:38 one gambles with their soul…and the odds are against it. I give them room to breathe, consider the text, and consider their choices. I don’t believe in scare-ism Christianity. It only produces Christians who want fire insurance. I believe in warning of what could happen if they disobey…and I leave it in their hands from there. Their choice is their choice. And I leave God in control to convict, draw, and judge.

TO BE CONTINUED:

[ChristopherHall]

Its not judging, or sending someone to hell. You did not send anyone, nor can you ever send anyone, to hell. The fact is that those that do not obey Gods call go to hell. Again, we are on a discussion board with those that are of like faith (for the most part), so our conversation here would not be the same as it would be towards those that lose a loved one. But when someone asks if Tyndale was saved or lost, all I can do is answer according to scripture, lest someone interpret my silence to say that there is another way to be saved.

Again, this is a public board and you might be surprised at how many backsliders and non-Apostolics just might end up reading it.

I don’t believe in being silent. I tell them this is what the Bible teaches. And therefore if they want to be sure of anything they have to obey the Bible…and if they want to gamble with their immortal soul, they’re free to go down the road to the First Church of the Frozen Chosen. This keeps dialogue open and prevents provoking them to reject the gospel outright. It brings them to the place where they can safely consider what the Scripture is saying…without retorting verse for verse. If God’s not drawing them by his Spirit…they’re free to go their way, but the door is still open. I try to never burn that bridge or deeply offend unless I feel God specifically calling me to do so. And here’s an amazing thing…I’ve never yet felt God tell me to speak strongly against a person, doctrine, or sin where God didn’t leave a door of mercy wide open.

Here’s something that bothers me. We sing songs written by Trinitarians and we use books and materials by them. I’ve even heard preachers “modify” their sermons and preach ‘em. We even read and use bibles produced and translated by Trinitarians. I feel a bit uneasy offering blanket condemnations. We say there was always an Apostolic Church through the ages. Well…where were they? What Bible did they use? (I’d vote we still use it!) Where are their songs of worship? Where are their churches? When we hear of a group that may have been Modalist we rarely see them believing exactly like we do. We never seem to see Montanism and Modalism (with Jesus name baptism) combined in a single body. Many were even polygamous. I remember being told that the Cathars were Apostolics. Bro…I studied some of the writings and histories attributed to them. NO WAY. They were dualists believing that God and Satan were equals. If they existed, they left no evidence meaning they had no impact, and it could be argued that the gates of Hell prevailed. If their wasn’t an Apostolic Church…but God had no mercy for those in the traditional church, the gates of Hell prevailed. Either way Hell prevailed…unless God’s mercy was greater.

When I’m teaching a person and they ask me about church history, I’m uncomfortable telling them some of the things we typically attribute our movement to. Without solid evidence for a church like ourselves…I cannot say there was a significant church of any consequence that believed like we do. It’s about knowing that what I’m saying is true. There’s nothing worse than telling a person well steeped in church history and doctrine that we are associated with Montanists, Cathars, and theosophist Christians and they call you on it. Bro…it will destroy the truth’s testimony.

Here’s a final consideration, we make exceptions in other areas to account for God being a just judge. For example with children; I know ministers who have presided over funerals of 7 year old kids who were un-baptized and not filled with the Holy Ghost and he stated that he believed they were saved. They seem to forget that sin is a part of our nature that must be forgiven and atoned for…not merely what we’ve done. Also I taught Sunday school for 8 years. I’ve seen 6 year olds get the Holy Ghost and be water baptized after repenting of their sins. If there can to absolutely NO exceptions…the 7 year old in this example never made it to Heaven.

I’d much rather believe that we serve a just and merciful God and trust him to do the judging than assume I am qualified to judge based on my interpretation of the Word. I can be mistaken. God is never mistaken.

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Hall if a sincere Catholic young man or girl joins the priesthood or nuns will they be saved?
A sincere Mormon? Jehovah Witness?

Bro. Hall?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????

[ChristopherHall]

Bro. Hall?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????
Bro. Epley...I answered this question in post #283:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=459911&postcount=283

I'm still waiting for you to show me an Apostolic church you claim existed down throughout history. I'd also like to know what Bible they used. If you can prove that the Apostolic faith existed down through the centuries...you have a case and I'll gladly reconsider. If not...you could be in total error regarding history for all we know.

So is the Apostolic movement the Church restored from Apostasy or is she a separate religion altogether? If we're not the church restored...why were ALL of our founders and pioneers men who came out of the traditional church? Certainly at least ONE would have come from this mysterious historical Apostolic Church you say existed.

Doesn't it bother you that nearly everything we have is borrowed from the Trinitarians? Everything from some of our greatest hymns to our translation of the Bible? Can't you see that we're an end product of a reformation? If we're not...why is the church of the living God so...un-original? As I said before, why didn't we at least maintain a Bible translation apart from the historical church's translations if we existed apart from the historical church?

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Epley...I answered this question in post #283:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=459911&postcount=283

I'm still waiting for you to show me an Apostolic church you claim existed down throughout history. I'd also like to know what Bible they used. If you can prove that the Apostolic faith existed down through the centuries...you have a case and I'll gladly reconsider. If not...you could be in total error regarding history for all we know.

So is the Apostolic movement the Church restored from Apostasy or is she a separate religion altogether? If we're not the church restored...why were ALL of our founders and pioneers men who came out of the traditional church? Certainly at least ONE would have come from this mysterious historical Apostolic Church you say existed.

Doesn't it bother you that nearly everything we have is borrowed from the Trinitarians? Everything from some of our greatest hymns to our translation of the Bible? Can't you see that we're an end product of a reformation? If we're not...why is the church of the living God so...un-original? As I said before, why didn't we at least maintain a Bible translation apart from the historical church's translations if we existed apart from the historical church?

Concerning this supposed restoration was it God did NOT have the power to maintain what He began or did NOT have the will?
Many historians have given evidence of a truth preaching Apostolic church through the ages.(Marvin, Chalfant, Wiesser, etc.)

[ChristopherHall]

Concerning this supposed restoration was it God did NOT have the power to maintain what He began or did NOT have the will?

I think a brief look at ancient Israel would serve as an excellent example. Israel was God’s people. Yet we see throughout their history how the nation descended into apostasy time and time again until God sent a prophet or man of God to turn the people back to Torah (God’s Law). We see how Jerusalem was even devastated and the Temple had to be rebuilt and the God ordained pattern of worship and atonement had to be revisited. We also see how kings and prophets searched the Scriptures and found how the people and the religious leaders had neglected the issues of God’s commands such as the Sabbath and tithe. In Israel we see the human tendency to drift into tradition and apostasy…but we also see something else…God had much mercy on his people and restored them with REVIVAL time and time again.

I now ask YOU…did God NOT have the power to maintain the Israel He began…or did He NOT have the will?

It’s not that God doesn’t have the power or the will…it’s simply that fallen human beings distort, traditionalize, and apostatize over a period of time. This is why REVIVAL is so important. Revival isn’t an option….revival is our SURVIVAL.

Carry what we see in ancient Israel into the Church Age. We see the church become popular and eventually she’s coopted by the state. The offices of bishop become very powerful political posts and soon the church is just another political social entity. In the process she traditionalizes, forms liturgies, institutes a professional priesthood, builds massive edifices to demonstrate her power and herd the masses to hear her teachings, the priests adopt icons, and idols. Converted pagans void of true spiritual revelation bring in pagan terms and traditions, only to Christianize them. God sends a revival…a man begins to read the Bible and he is burned at the stake for challenging the priesthood. Soon there are periods of revival throughout history and they are met with extreme persecution. Eventually the Catholic Church chains the Bible to her altars and forbids the common man to read it. Repentance is hindered with the false doctrines of penance and indulgences, water baptism is ceremonialized into sprinkling and titles are spoken instead of the name, many experience the Holy Ghost in what was called “spiritual ecstasy” and these are often denounced as heretics and embraced as monastic mystics after their deaths. It seems Hell is conqured…but then a man named Martin Luther begins to actually read his Bible and God’s Spirit moves upon his tradition laden heart and begins to show him truths that challenge the Roman Catholic Church. He nails his 95 thesis to the wall of his church and the Reformation begins. The Reformation brought waves of revival as men began to turn toward God’s Word. Various reformers (such as Knox and Huss) begin to press deeper into the Word as scholarship begins to uncover truths that had been hidden for nearly a 1,000 years. Soon Revivalists Wesley, Whitfield, and others set the world aflame with messages of true repentance and obedience, however their understanding is still limited. Fundamentalist Churches break forth and denominations are formed around truths discovered in Scripture. Yet God has more. When the time was right those who had repented of sin cried out in hunger for God’s next restoration…a revival. The time was right…God poured out the Holy Ghost in massive power at Stone’s Folley, Azuza, and in Wales. It sets the Christian world on fire. Of course Jesus promised something…the Holy Ghost would lead us into all truth. With the fullness of Holy Ghost baptism in operation again God reveals to those students of the Word that He is manifest in Christ alone….and the doctrine of Oneness breaks forth among the Pentecostals. Soon Jesus name baptism is restored.

Bro…anyone who knows Israel can see how God has a consistent record with restoring his people from their traditions and apostasies. Certainly it’s a possibility that this is also seen in the Church.

Many historians have given evidence of a truth preaching Apostolic church through the ages.(Marvin, Chalfant, Wiesser, etc.)

I’ve read Marvin, Chalfant, and Wiesser’s work. For example Marvin and Chalfant state that the Cathars were early Apostolics. Bro…patchworks of the Cathar’s writings still exist. They were Gnostic duelists who also embraced polygamy and reincarnation. Marvin even proposed that Arians and Apostolics are of the same cloth…bro…that’s far, far, far from the Truth. Marvin Arnold proposed that the Gothic Bible was widely distributed among early Apostolics and was indeed the Apostolic Bible…again Gothic Christianity inherited the errors of the Arians. The Gothic Bible is Arian...it's not even Modalist! Marvin Arnold also claims that the Nestorians were early Apostolics…bro…we have plenty of Nestorian writings and we can even travel to Asia and visit Nestorian churches and shrines…they were NOT Apostolics. The only thing things groups have in common is that they denied the Trinity. Some were Modalists, some Manachian, some Duelists, some Arian. Is God a God of confusion????????????????? Is this were you trace YOUR spiritual heritage?

I firmly believe that the bitterness against the Trinitarian Church’s rejection of our truth lead many men to produce a form of Apostolic Historical Revisionism that has distorted the truth of many of these early groups. Please note…Christadelphians, JW’s, and Sabbatarians also trace their supposed history to these groups. Why? The rank and file Christian knows so little about them it can be made to appear that there has always been a consistent church. But in-depth research will reveal otherwise. Most of these anti-Trinitarian groups didn’t baptize in Jesus name. I believe it was the Bogomils or the Cathars who regarded “baptism” as a meditative experience of confession…there wasn’t even water involved. LOL

I’m sincerely looking for TRUTH on the matter. Can you PROVE to me that I can trace my history to these Gnostic groups? Can you prove they weren’t polygamists, duelists, Gnostics, and seditionists? I’ve tried and tried and tried. Why? Because truth matters to me. It’s not enough for me to merely pass the buck to Marvin, Chalfant, or Wiesser if I’m incorrect and found to be lying on history. If God could have mercy on the extreme error in these groups, errors exhibited in what we have of their own works…certainly God could have mercy on Martin Luther, John Huss, John Knox, Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Wesley, Whitfield, leading up to Parham, McAlister, Urshan, Haywood, and others…who by the way saw themselves as a RESTORATION of the church without even referencing these obscure cults we find down through history. Did these groups suddenly VANISH in 1890? Where are their decedents today? They melted into obscurity as more and more Biblical light was revealed and there errors were increasingly rejected.

Can you help me with this bro? I’ll gladly reverse my position.

[ChristopherHall]

For the reader: Here are some of Marvin's teachings regarding historic Apostolics he claims preserved the "truth" as we know it. Please do some research on these groups and compare what you find to what Marvin tells us:

Here are some words or names used in this book. Sometimes their definitions or meanings are only found in history books. Many of these words are not in our dictionaries. We used the following definition

APOSTOLIC: Apostle-like, what the Apostles taught in Acts. The doctrine the twelve apostles preached.
ALBIGENSIANS: Of Albi, France. They were mostly Apostolic Christians in organizations called by this name-especially between AD 900 and 1490. Some called them Cathari.
ANABAPTIST: Anabaptism. This simply means to re-baptize someone. Apostolics would always re-baptize converts forsaking Rome's mode into the Acts 2:38 formula.
ARIANISM: Arius, Arians of ca.AD 290-335. Arianism never died. Arius was excommunicated at Nicaea for denying the Trinity idea.
ATEMONITES: Followers of Artemon. He was a Monarchian with Acts two doctrine in Septimius Severus' time. AUTO Da FE: It meant to Catholics-An Act of Faith! That is, they burned non-Catholics at the stake! It was a gala affair for Spanish Catholics, like a carnival! Especially they burned Jews. There were at least 2000 Autos in Spain alone.
CATHARI: Catharer, or Cathari, meant pure. This was a general term. Most were Apostolics in many different organizations. Rome's religious institution slandered Donatists as Cathari.
CATHOLICISM: The whole Catholic system, the total concept. It falsely called itself Christianity.
CATHOLIC HIERARCHY: The top Romish leaders, the episcopi episcoporum.
COERCIONISM: The use of verbal or military force. CONCORDAT: An agreement between a pope and a sovereign or government. However, we refer specifically to the one drawn up, on July 20, 1933, between Eugenio Pacelli (Pope Pius XII), and, Nazi Germany's Adolf Hitler. Its Article 16, signed the Catholic system in Germany over to Hitler.
CONDUCTUAL-AVERAGISM: It means the average morality of an average sinner on the street. Conduct of unregenerates, a low standard of holiness.
CONFISCATION: I use this word herein to denote the scheme or practice of the Catholic system during its INQUISITIONS as it STOLE or SEIZED non Catholic's properties. Catholic Hitler stripped the Jews, is an example. Catholics stripped the Waldenses.
CONSTANTINIANISM: This means the spirit of Constantine that seeped into Catholicism; cruelty, force by decree or military means. The evil practices in Rome's religion.
CONVENTICLE: A secret place of worship.
DONATUS: Donatism, after Donatus, one-God Christianity.
EBIONITES: Economically poor Palestinian Jews that held Acts two belief.
GLOSSOLALIA: Holy Ghost tongues-speaking other tongues.
INQUISITION: Earth's most horrifying thing. It was the Catholic scheme to inquire into a non-Catholic's religion, a forced Roman Catholic Inquest, Tribunal Courts. Pope Gregory IX launched the great INQUISITION in 1233 and lasted until 1834. In it some historians estimate 68,000,000 perished, Romish Inquisitors like Torquemada confiscated their properties. Ferdinand-Isabella and later Hitler all operated about the same. In 1478 Sixtus IV ordered the Inquisition into Spain. In 1933 Pope Pius XII signed the CONCORDAT with Hitler's Nazi Germany. They killed millions of Jews.
INQUISITOR: Usually a Dominican priest a spy. He spied on those alleged to be heretics-Jews and Apostolics, etc. He got 1/3rd of the bounty.
KERYGMA: Apostolic preaching of Acts two. MANI: Manichaeism. Mani founded the Manichee bodies. He was a Persian of ca.AD 240. The Manichee held the Oneness Godhead and Acts two doctrine until ca. AD 1800.
MODALISTIC MONARCHIANISM: This means "one-God" doctrine. One "mode" of worshipping one "MONARCH-God." It was the Deuteronomy 6:4 Godhead belief of the Acts 2:38 Apostolic people. They were Jesus Name Christians.
MONOTHEISM: Hebraic, one-God belief as is in Deut. 6:4. NOETUS: The founder of Noetianism, of Noetians. He was a one-God bearer of Acts 2:38 ecclesiology, of AD 150? to 219.
PEREGRINI: A peregrine was a land traveling as well a roving missionary, early preacher. Often they preached where a ship docked, e.g., Glastonbury, England by AD 37-42. 8
PRIMITIVE: The first and oldest, as applied to Upper Room Christianity. It means original, also. Thus, Upper Room Christianity is primitive.
PRISCILLIANISM: It was the same as Montanism, a tongues-speaking variant of Oneness Pentecostalism. Priscilla, a glossolalist, was in Montanus' church, therefore the name.
PATRIPASSIAN (ism): Pa-tri-passian means The Father Himself suffered. It denied Rome's Trinity idea. It denotes Acts 2:38 doctrine in a "Jesus Only" sense. It was the same as Judaic-Christian monotheism. It went with Deut. 6:4.
SABELLIAN: Sabellius, of AD 257, propagated one-God-ism of Deut. 6:4 that its enemies nicknamed, Sabellianism. Sabellianism was a one-God doctrine coupled with Acts 2:38 tenets. It bitterly denounced Rome's Trinity theory. The nominal religious world despised (despises) the doctrine.
SAMOSATENES: Paul of Samosata founded Samosatenism. They were also called Paulianists. They held Acts two tenets as well as a Judaistic Godhead doctrine. Blunt, on p. 516, classed him as a Sabellian-Monarchian with Acts 2:38 ecclesiology. His wife was a Jewess.
THAUMATURGY: This means unnumbered divine miracles by the hundreds or thousands. See: R. A. Knox, pp. 375, 376, about 600 miracles, outpouring of divine miracles.
WIEDERTAUFER: It was a medieval slander hurled at rebaptizers (Anabaptists). It was of German origin. To rebaptize Lutherans or Catholics often meant the death sentence.
WINCKELEHE: What Catholics as well High Protestant Reformers slandered as illegal marriages, it insinuated that a man and his wife were illegally cohabiting if a Catholic or Lutheran priest did not conduct the wedding ceremony.
WINCKLER: It means a hidden or out-of-the-way place; a conventicle, or secret place of worship.
WINCKELPREDIGTEN: It means secret worship, and winckel-preachings.
WINCKLERISM: Catholic, Lutheran, and Zwinglian leaders slandered every religion outside of their own as Wincklerism. This also included Apostolic Christianity.
ZWANGTAUFE: It was specifically a cruel Roman Catholic invention. Zwangtaufe means, "water baptism by force into the Trinity formula." Reformers supported Zwangtaufe.

[Baron1710]

I think a brief look at ancient Israel would serve as an excellent example.

Man you crack me up you post the longest essays on here. You referred to this one as brief? I am like the ADD poster child, I forget what you are talking about one third of the way through your post. Concise and precise grasshopper.

[ChristopherHall]

Man you crack me up you post the longest essays on here. You referred to this one as brief? I am like the ADD poster child, I forget what you are talking about one third of the way through your post. Concise and precise grasshopper.

Doh! LOL Sorry.

Israel would digress into apostasy we we see God restore her repeatedly. I think it's silly to propose that God doing this suggests that he lacks the power or will to preserve his people. Remember, Israel and the Church are both subject to human error and are in need of repeated revival.

How's that? lol

For give me. I'm a typist. I can type almost faster than I can talk. I type my mind and before I know it I have pages of information. :(

[ChristopherHall]

Baron,

What do you believe personally? Are we a Revival of Truth or are we a continuation of truths passed down through history in various sects and movements as illustrated by some?

[Timmy]

Baron,

What do you believe personally? Are we a Revival of Truth or are we a continuation of truths passed down through history in various sects and movements as illustrated by some?

Only two possibilities? :lol

[dizzyde]

Man you crack me up you post the longest essays on here. You referred to this one as brief? I am like the ADD poster child, I forget what you are talking about one third of the way through your post. Concise and precise grasshopper.

:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

I was just thinking the same thing!! Any wisdom or otherwise that CH is trying to impart is for the most part lost on me, I get blurry about 5 sentences in! :toofunny

[ChristopherHall]

I've forgotten that we live in a sound bite/bumber sticker message society. lol

[dizzyde]

I've forgotten that we live in a sound bite/bumber sticker message society. lol

Brother, it's not that, I am a reader, but almost everything you write on here is in essay form, and some of us are just jumping on and off here while attempting to do our jobs and live our real lives.

Your lengthy responses are pretty overwhelming for someone who is trying to catch-up/stay-on-top of what is going on here. I didn't intend it to be an insult or making fun , just how it affects me, and apparently others as well.

[ChristopherHall]

Brother, it's not that, I am a reader, but almost everything you write on here is in essay form, and some of us are just jumping on and off here while attempting to do our jobs and live our real lives.

Your lengthy responses are pretty overwhelming for someone who is trying to catch-up/stay-on-top of what is going on here. I didn't intend it to be an insult or making fun , just how it affects me, and apparently others as well.

I understand. Hey...I'll try to keep it short...but that's my handicap. lol

[Steve Epley]

Were men and women saved outside of obeying the Law and offering the commanded sacrifices during that dispensation?

Isreal as a nation may have backslid but there was always a remnant who was faithful to God.

There has always been a remnant that preached the true Apostolic message from Pentecost until present IF the words of Jesus can be believed.

[Sister Alvear]

You made me think of the song, "If Jesus said it, I believe it , His word cannot lie, If it is written in the Bible I will believe it till I die..."

[Bobbys]

hellbound? Says who??? SAYS JESUS. Jesus said in Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not SHALL BE DAMNED. If you don't believe the truth of the bible you are HELLBOUND. Bible say be ye DOERS of the word and not hearers only. So you have to believe the bible and what you believe you ALSO have to DO. So no room for half steppers. one person understood and sang 99 and a half wont do. Another sang and said leaving ALL TO FOLLOW JESUS. Jesus himself said let a man deny himself. So yes I can tell you that you are hellbound when I can see that you are not in line with the word of God which is found in the book known as the bible.

[Cindy]

hellbound? Says who??? SAYS JESUS. Jesus said in Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not SHALL BE DAMNED. If you don't believe the truth of the bible you are HELLBOUND. Bible say be ye DOERS of the word and not hearers only. So you have to believe the bible and what you believe you ALSO have to DO. So no room for half steppers. one person understood and sang 99 and a half wont do. Another sang and said leaving ALL TO FOLLOW JESUS. Jesus himself said let a man deny himself. So yes I can tell you that you are hellbound when I can see that you are not in line with the word of God which is found in the book known as the bible.

Truth!