Obama tying himself in knots with Rick Warren

[Carpenter]

This guy is something else. He is articulate yes, but he can't keep from tripping over his own feet talking about morality, spirituality, his pro-choice position, and what democrats...pffft...ffpppt, BAAAAAAhahahahahahahaah!!!!!! :ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny are doing to lower and limit the number of abortions. (sorry, I couldn't hold it in...)

I wouldn't vote for Osbama for dogcatcher...

[CC1]

I have heard that in a prepared speech with a teleprompter Obama can't be beat but that in a roundtable type situation where you have to speak spontaneously and extemporanously that McCain comes out on top.

Although I have been extremely pessemistic about McCain's chances the fact that Obama is not the 15 points ahead in the polls I thought he would be gives me faint home that America has not totally lost it's mind yet and will not elect him as President.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Hey man, you misspelled his name.

It's Obama, Barak Obama.

[Praxeas]

This guy is something else. He is articulate yes, but he can't keep from tripping over his own feet talking about morality, spirituality, his pro-choice position, and what democrats...pffft...ffpppt, BAAAAAAhahahahahahahaah!!!!!! :ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny are doing to lower and limit the number of abortions. (sorry, I couldn't hold it in...)

I wouldn't vote for Osbama for dogcatcher...
I was watching CNN commentators (not fox) talk about how Obama has a knack for being vague. He says what people want to hear "change" and other buzz words but can't say much on what change.

[jdm05]

I was watching CNN commentators (not fox) talk about how Obama has a knack for being vague. He says what people want to hear "change" and other buzz words but can't say much on what change.

That's exactly right, Obama tells people what they want to hear. God forbid for Obama to win!!! If he does win, people will see his true colors come out sooner than later. Let's see how they feel about Obama's "change" then.

[Jermyn Davidson]

That's exactly right, Obama tells people what they want to hear. God forbid for Obama to win!!! If he does win, people will see his true colors come out sooner than later. Let's see how they feel about Obama's "change" then.

Interesting, I think the same thing about McCain-- he's just another politician.
Obama is genuine.

[Carpenter]

Hey man, you misspelled his name.

It's Obama, Barak Obama.

The truth hurts doesn't it...

[Carpenter]

He is verbally stumbling over almost every word he is trying to say as though he hasn't had an original thought in the past 10 months!

He is starting his sentences with one word, cutting himself off then begining again with another word.

This guy is a empty suit!

Don't let the press win, keep Osbama in the Senate!


...thats my new campaign slogan.

[U376977]

I have heard that in a prepared speech with a teleprompter Obama can't be beat but that in a roundtable type situation where you have to speak spontaneously and extemporanously that McCain comes out on top.

Although I have been extremely pessemistic about McCain's chances the fact that Obama is not the 15 points ahead in the polls I thought he would be gives me faint home that America has not totally lost it's mind yet and will not elect him as President.

I have not seen the polls lately so I don't know who is out front. BUT I read on Thursday where the Washington Post admitted to giving "Osbama" 3 times the coverage as McCain. That alone, if done nationally, would give him a lead in the polls; and he will get an expected bump at the demo convention.

[Praxeas]

He is verbally stumbling over almost every word he is trying to say as though he hasn't had an original thought in the past 10 months!

He is starting his sentences with one word, cutting himself off then begining again with another word.

This guy is a empty suit!

Don't let the press win, keep Osbama in the Senate!


...thats my new campaign slogan.
These CNN commentators were saying when he is infront of a teleprompter he can't be beat. But in a situation like this McCain comes out the winner

[Rico]

Obama is the kind of person who thinks about what he's saying as he goes, carefully choosing his words, rather than blurting out the first thing that comes to his mind. A lot of people confuse this for stumbling his way through what he's saying, but they're wrong. My Dad does the same thing when he speaks, and it drives me nuts.

Also, you guys need to grow up and stop all this "Osbama, Oblama, Osama, Obamination" nonsense.

[Jermyn Davidson]

The truth hurts doesn't it...


Not in this case... if you are going to refer him, you should refer to him by his correct name-- Obama, there is not an "s".

[Praxeas]

Obama is the kind of person who thinks about what he's saying as he goes, carefully choosing his words, rather than blurting out the first thing that comes to his mind. A lot of people confuse this for stumbling his way through what he's saying, but they're wrong. My Dad does the same thing when he speaks, and it drives me nuts.

Also, you guys need to grow up and stop all this "Osbama, Oblama, Osama, Obamination" nonsense.
Actually he wears an ear piece and just as he starts to speak one of his assistances says "No you idiot! Don't say that" :ursofunny

[Praxeas]

Go to fox and watch the video interview of Rick Warren. I love what he says to his congregation about looking at the character, not the image but the character of each man. Then he said events like 9/11 don't necessarily make their character but reveals their character

[Neubill]

...My Dad does the same thing when he speaks, and it drives me nuts.

I would vote for your Dad before Sen. Obama.

[Rhoni]

This guy is something else. He is articulate yes, but he can't keep from tripping over his own feet talking about morality, spirituality, his pro-choice position, and what democrats...pffft...ffpppt, BAAAAAAhahahahahahahaah!!!!!! :ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny are doing to lower and limit the number of abortions. (sorry, I couldn't hold it in...)

I wouldn't vote for Osbama for dogcatcher...

It apears that Obama came in dead last on that debate. McCain's answers were so full of subsatnce, integrity, and right choices, whereas Obama was compared to a professor you avoid in college because he has no practical experience and bores you to death.:ursofunny

[Sarah]

It apears that Obama came in dead last on that debate. McCain's answers were so full of subsatnce, integrity, and right choices, whereas Obama was compared to a professor you avoid in college because he has no practical experience and bores you to death.:ursofunny


Yes. McCain is probably the better politician. LOL

[Rhoni]

Yes. McCain is probably the better politician. LOL

McCain has more experience where we need it...Obama has the popular vote because of his charsima...but it won't help him lead. As far as 'politician' I think Obama is expereinced at evading the issues and telling people what they want to hear...in this he is the better 'politician'.:tease

[Neck]

This guy is something else. He is articulate yes, but he can't keep from tripping over his own feet talking about morality, spirituality, his pro-choice position, and what democrats...pffft...ffpppt, BAAAAAAhahahahahahahaah!!!!!! :ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny are doing to lower and limit the number of abortions. (sorry, I couldn't hold it in...)

I wouldn't vote for Osbama for dogcatcher...

If I knew nothing of his politics.

I would still say where is the dynamic personality everyone of these follers tell us us there....

He has so many pauses and eye movements when he answers a question.

I just don't get it.

We all know that John M is not dynamic.

But you do not see the republicans running around telling the world how dynamic he is...

[Sarah]

McCain has more experience where we need it...Obama has the popular vote because of his charsima...but it won't help him lead. As far as 'politician' I think Obama is expereinced at evading the issues and telling people what they want to hear...in this he is the better 'politician'.:tease



I think they ALL tell people what they want to hear to a degree........

[DividedThigh]

even the obama news media made up a lie about mccain cheating to cover for him making a mess of the forum at saddleback, hey if he cant handle a lib like warren he cant handle being pres, dt

[tstew]

McCain has more experience where we need it...Obama has the popular vote because of his charsima...but it won't help him lead. As far as 'politician' I think Obama is expereinced at evading the issues and telling people what they want to hear...in this he is the better 'politician'.:tease

Oh, you mean like "We really, really, really don't like abortions, but we're never going to actually do anyhthing about it...but vote for me because of it"? :evilglee

[DividedThigh]

whatever, dt

[Cindy]

I will not vote for Obama, and it has nothing to do with how he can or can't talk on TV.

[Ferd]

Interesting, I think the same thing about McCain-- he's just another politician.
Obama is genuine.

There are large portions of McCain that I dont like. His stance on illegal immagration leaves a lot to be desired, his willingness to attack American Businesses, his softness on taxation (although he has always been better than barak by a thousand miles) are a few.

but one thing about John McCain that is simply false is the notion that he will simply say what everyone wants to hears.... just another politician. This is a guy who has absolutly tied republicans in knots with not toeing the party line.

he was eaten alive by many on the right over his attack on Don Rumsfeld and the Iraq strategy. He has NEVER ONCE asked for an earmark (pork barrell spending project) for his state. This is a guy who refuses to violate his stated principles even to his own political detriment.

so while saying you dont like his policy or dont agree with him politically is perfectly fine, I find it quite hard to swallow that anyone would call him "just another politician".

[Ferd]

Obama is the kind of person who thinks about what he's saying as he goes, carefully choosing his words, rather than blurting out the first thing that comes to his mind. A lot of people confuse this for stumbling his way through what he's saying, but they're wrong. My Dad does the same thing when he speaks, and it drives me nuts.

Also, you guys need to grow up and stop all this "Osbama, Oblama, Osama, Obamination" nonsense.

I personally prefer bomaleta but since no one would know what that means Obamination works really well and is actually quite accurate.

[DividedThigh]

i am for obomaination, fits perfectly, dt

[Ferd]

speaking of Obamanation, I heard a clip of his answer about abortion. basically he said any answer was "above his pay grade". I agree! being that a president doesnt have anyone "above his pay grade" I dont think Obamanation should be president.

what an idiot answer.

[DividedThigh]

well there you have it, but he is so qualified, community organizer and all what for a small township in rural south dakota, lol

[dizzyde]

I think they ALL tell people what they want to hear to a degree........

AMEN, except, there aint no "degree" about it.

They all say exactly what they think we want to hear, and then go and do whatever they want to, or at least what they can get away with!

[Ferd]

AMEN, except, there aint no "degree" about it.

They all say exactly what they think we want to hear, and then go and do whatever they want to, or at least what they can get away with!

it just greaves my heart to see or hear this kind of thought process.

[dizzyde]

it just greaves my heart to see or hear this kind of thought process.

Ferd, I am not going to do the politics thing with you, I swore that off a while back, but I will say that I was a die-hard republican up until the last 4 years or so, and now I don't know what I am other than extremely disillusioned.

I respect that you don't understand that, but it is what it is, and nothing anyone can say is going to change it, it is going to take me seeing different things from those in power to change my feelings. I don't have real high hopes in that regard.

[Ferd]

Ferd, I am not going to do the politics thing with you, I swore that off a while back, but I will say that I was a die-hard republican up until the last 4 years or so, and now I don't know what I am other than extremely disillusioned.

I respect that you don't understand that, but it is what it is, and nothing anyone can say is going to change it, it is going to take me seeing different things from those in power to change my feelings. I don't have real high hopes in that regard.

Its all good. these political discussions can get rough and tumble.

[Rhoni]

Oh, you mean like "We really, really, really don't like abortions, but we're never going to actually do anyhthing about it...but vote for me because of it"? :evilglee

EXACTLY. Where Obama lost many was that he believed in killing a baby who was aborted alive, as if aborting a baby in utero was any different, but a live baby being purposely made to die is infanticide in the worst possible degree!

[Tyk]

Ferd, I am not going to do the politics thing with you, I swore that off a while back, but I will say that I was a die-hard republican up until the last 4 years or so, and now I don't know what I am other than extremely disillusioned.

I respect that you don't understand that, but it is what it is, and nothing anyone can say is going to change it, it is going to take me seeing different things from those in power to change my feelings. I don't have real high hopes in that regard.

We all like to think we are disillusioned and have the correct view on anything we take a stand for.

[Rhoni]

speaking of Obamanation, I heard a clip of his answer about abortion. basically he said any answer was "above his pay grade". I agree! being that a president doesnt have anyone "above his pay grade" I dont think Obamanation should be president.

what an idiot answer.

Of all the arrogant snobbery...:club

[dizzyde]

We all like to think we are disillusioned and have the correct view on anything we take a stand for.

I don't think I mentioned anything I "stand" for, just how I feel. We all like to think everything that WE think and feel is right, what is your point? I'm not promoting anything. I respect that everyone has different viewpoints, but that doesn't make mine invalid.

[Rico]

Ferd, I am not going to do the politics thing with you, I swore that off a while back, but I will say that I was a die-hard republican up until the last 4 years or so, and now I don't know what I am other than extremely disillusioned.

I respect that you don't understand that, but it is what it is, and nothing anyone can say is going to change it, it is going to take me seeing different things from those in power to change my feelings. I don't have real high hopes in that regard.

Bush's second term really turned me against the Republicans too.

[DividedThigh]

yeah , yeah , yah, whateva,. lol

[Ferd]

Bush's second term really turned me against the Republicans too.

trying not to be harsh but from what ive seen, that was a pretty easy turn.

[Ferd]

for all those hating the republicans you should research what the demonrats have done in the last 2 years while they have had control of congress.

LOL!

[DividedThigh]

I don't think I mentioned anything I "stand" for, just how I feel. We all like to think everything that WE think and feel is right, what is your point? I'm not promoting anything. I respect that everyone has different viewpoints, but that doesn't make mine invalid.

stand for yourself dizz, you be just fine, your opinion is as valid as any other, dt

[DividedThigh]

for all those hating the republicans you should research what the demonrats have done in the last 2 years while they have had control of congress.

LOL!

nothin bout sums that up, lol

[Ferd]

nothin bout sums that up, lol

They DID appologize for slavery I guess some would think that is something....


oh but wait, that was done to help an incumbant white democrat keep his seat in the house against a challenge from an African American democrat challenger.... LOL!

and they say the republicans are all about the politics...:ursofunny

[DividedThigh]

They DID appologize for slavery I guess some would think that is something....


oh but wait, that was done to help an incumbant white democrat keep his seat in the house against a challenge from an African American democrat challenger.... LOL!

and they say the republicans are all about the politics...:ursofunny

well reality is stranger than fiction, least they could do is put a smart guy up for pres, lol like j c watts, lol

[Ferd]

well reality is stranger than fiction, least they could do is put a smart guy up for pres, lol like j c watts, lol

smart guy....

Bro, dems have always been about style over substance. at least in this generation. their guys are smart, smart like an old college professor of mine who while brilliant thought Chairman Mao got a bad rep and really did wonders for China.

Barak Obama has style for days and can give a mean speach and can regurgitate what anyone tells him, but ask him a question that requires some thought and you get "Thats above my pay grade"


(nobody told him what to say to THAT question) next time he will do better I suppose.

[Baron1710]

Oh, you mean like "We really, really, really don't like abortions, but we're never going to actually do anyhthing about it...but vote for me because of it"? :evilglee

Now that you have bought the lie that the media has told you (That conservatives only pay lip service to the pro-life crowed to get elected) how about some truth...

In a two-page letter sent to the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, and the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, Mr. Bush said his veto threat would apply to any measures that “allow taxpayer dollars to be used for the destruction of human life.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/washington/04veto.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Ask yourself would a democrat allow public funds to support abortion?

President Bush confirmed at a White House lunch for GOP congressional leaders Monday that as one of his first acts as president he will reinstate the so-called global gag rule, which blocks U.S. funds being given to international family-planning groups that offer abortion and abortion counseling.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,96275,00.html

Partial birth abortion has been banned.

Ask yourself how this happened. 2 seats on the Supreme Court is why it happened.

This nonsense that the Bush administration has done nothing to stop abortion is almost laughable, not a single pro-choice advocate will agree with you on this.

[DividedThigh]

i agree ferd however book learnin aint made a democrat smart yet, lol

[Rico]

trying not to be harsh but from what ive seen, that was a pretty easy turn.

Ferd, I've voted Republican in every election since I turned 18. It was not an easy turn. I've had it with Republicans and their lies. They don't care one bit for the working man in this country.

[DividedThigh]

i dont believe that rico i am a workin man and my guys care for me, dt

[Ferd]

Ferd, I've voted Republican in every election since I turned 18. It was not an easy turn. I've had it with Republicans and their lies. They don't care one bit for the working man in this country.

anyone who ends a comment about Republicans with the words "dont care about the working man" betrays their inner socialist.

[Baron1710]

anyone who ends a comment about Republicans with the words "dont care about the working man" betrays their inner socialist.

Are you saying there is a hint of class warfare in there Ferd?

[Ferd]

Are you saying there is a hint of class warfare in there Ferd?
I am saying someone who regurgitates the blather put out by democrats and the idiots at moveon dot org CANNOT be a republican. It is not possible.


It is mind boggling to me that people think it is "for the working man" to take mega dollars away from employers in the form or taxation and call that "pro worker".

It is idiocy. or liberalism... those 2 terms are synonymous

[Rico]

i dont believe that rico i am a workin man and my guys care for me, dt

Go talk to the autworkers and ask them what they think of Republicans. LOL!

[Rico]

anyone who ends a comment about Republicans with the words "dont care about the working man" betrays their inner socialist.

I got some shocking news for you, Ferd. God is a socialist. He made some pretty serious provisions for the poor, and He believes in universal healthcare. Shocking, I know, but just read your Bible. It's in there. ;)

[Ferd]

I got some shocking news for you, Ferd. God is a socialist. He made some pretty serious provisions for the poor, and He believes in universal healthcare. Shocking, I know, but just read your Bible. It's in there. ;)

once again you demonstrate a complete lack of biblical understanding.

Gods charge is to Christians. NOT the state.

[Baron1710]

I got some shocking news for you, Ferd. God is a socialist. He made some pretty serious provisions for the poor, and He believes in universal healthcare. Shocking, I know, but just read your Bible. It's in there. ;)

Really Rico? God forcefully took from one and gave to another? Your Robin Hood economics has never worked anywhere, at the end of the day it just Robin Hood is still a thief, even if he does steal from the rich.

[Ferd]

Go talk to the autworkers and ask them what they think of Republicans. LOL!

you mean the auto workers that priced themselves out of jobs?


Rico, do you honestly think that passel of lied to socialist sympathizers will own up to the fact that they cut their own throats?

good grief.

[Ferd]

If God were a socialist there would be no poor.

Jesus said the poor you will have with you always.


go forth and learn the meaning thereof.

[vrblackwell]

I got some shocking news for you, Ferd. God is a socialist. He made some pretty serious provisions for the poor, and He believes in universal healthcare. Shocking, I know, but just read your Bible. It's in there. ;)

Rico, is you think socialism is so wonderful please move to Russia or Canada.

You think that universal health care is great. Go to British Columbia where my brother lives and ask the thousands that are on a waiting list to get treatment. That list is over six months long.

[Ferd]

Rico, is you think socialism is so wonderful please move to Russia or Canada.

You think that universal health care is great. Go to British Columbia where my brother lives and ask the thousands that are on a waiting list to get treatment. That list is over six months long.

that waiting list is more sanitary than a british hospital where they are considering turning sheets over instead of washing to cut down on costs....

[Rico]

once again you demonstrate a complete lack of biblical understanding.

Gods charge is to Christians. NOT the state.

When God established Israel, He established a nation, Ferd. A nation with a tithing requirement that amounted to a tax. Can you believe it? The nerve of God expecting up to 30% from people, depending on the year. How dare He! Plus, he required people to pay certain fees to the "government" officials, depending on what services they were getting. Again, how dare He? Who did He think He was by establishing taxes and fees to the people of the nation of Israel?!?!?! Using your logic, He was a liberal demonrat for thinking taxing His people was ok.

[Rico]

Rico, is you think socialism is so wonderful please move to Russia or Canada.

You think that universal health care is great. Go to British Columbia where my brother lives and ask the thousands that are on a waiting list to get treatment. That list is over six months long.

Listen, the love it or move out tactic is boring. Come up with something better than that.

[Baron1710]

When God established Israel, He established a nation, Ferd. A nation with a tithing requirement that amounted to a tax. Can you believe it? The nerve of God expecting up to 30% from people, depending on the year. How dare He! Plus, he required people to pay certain fees to the "government" officials, depending on what services they were getting. Again, how dare He? Who did He think He was by establishing taxes and fees to the people of the nation of Israel?!?!?! Using your logic, He was a liberal demonrat for thinking taxing His people was ok.

You show a complete lack of knowledge of OT culture. Why don't you back up those statements rico?

[Ferd]

When God established Israel, He established a nation, Ferd. A nation with a tithing requirement that amounted to a tax. Can you believe it? The nerve of God expecting up to 30% from people, depending on the year. How dare He! Plus, he required people to pay certain fees to the "government" officials, depending on what services they were getting. Again, how dare He? Who did He think He was by establishing taxes and fees to the people of the nation of Israel?!?!?! Using your logic, He was a liberal demonrat for thinking taxing His people was ok.

?. dude what is wrong with you? because one is a conservitive, does not mean one believes there should be no taxation.

and i would be very happy with a base 10% tax or even (really) up to 30% in some years.... I pay more than that for sure.

God was NEVER a socialist. that is Rico mythology he picked up from some crazy liberal website that wants to get christians to vote for a bunch of baby killing homo lovers.

[Ferd]

You show a complete lack of knowledge of OT culture. Why don't you back up those statements rico?

regugitation of something told to you by someone else isnt back up-able

[OnenessWoman]

Interesting, I think the same thing about McCain-- he's just another politician.
Obama is genuine.

Yes, you are right. Obama is genuine...a genuine FAKE....just like McCain.

[OnenessWoman]

Also, you guys need to grow up and stop all this "Osbama, Oblama, Osama, Obamination" nonsense.


Obamination! I hadn't heard that one! Love it! :ursofunny

Actually he wears an ear piece and just as he starts to speak one of his assistances says "No you idiot! Don't say that" :ursofunny

Hilarious! :ursofunny

AMEN, except, there aint no "degree" about it.

They all say exactly what they think we want to hear, and then go and do whatever they want to, or at least what they can get away with!



Amen Sista! You preach it!

[tstew]

EXACTLY. Where Obama lost many was that he believed in killing a baby who was aborted alive, as if aborting a baby in utero was any different, but a live baby being purposely made to die is infanticide in the worst possible degree!

Partial birth abortions are an unthinkable crime to me. I hate all abortions, but I believe that partial birth abortions are particularly heinous. However, the last report I read said that partial birth abortions account for 0.17% of all abortions. I have a problem with the nearly 1 million that happen every year and I think that to focus on this minute fraction only helps to hide the real problem.
The real problem is that abortion has been a lip-service platform for too long. Let me run down some of my problems then probably back away because this is frustrating to me.

1. Since Roe vs Wade was enacted, there have been 10 Justices appointed to the Supreme Court. 8 of those 10 have been appointed by Republican Presidents (you can paint it however you want to but that is simply a fact). Maybe McCain will be the conservative that fixes all of this.

2. Too many of the people who say that abortion is murder apparently do not believe it because if 1 million 10 year olds were getting killed every year the response would be vastly different. I don't believe we would have the same patience that we do with the Republicans who have been running on this platform for decades. How many years of millions of 10 year olds being killed would it take for us to demand action and change. How many election cycles would we allow to pass while these were being murdered and how many times would we embrace those who made stopping this very central to their campaigns. Politicians have now realized that they can say that they are pro-life and enjoy our support even while the millions are being murdered. The message that we send is that they can count on our vote because we will not vote for the other, but at the same time they don't have to stop the murders because we can live with them.

I guess if you feel like 4 years of McCain will help end abortion, then you should hold out hope. However, I believe there will be another 4 million abortions and then another Republican will enjoy your support due to the same issue.

Just my honest opinion.

[OnenessWoman]

We all like to think we are disillusioned and have the correct view on anything we take a stand for.

I don't think I mentioned anything I "stand" for, just how I feel. We all like to think everything that WE think and feel is right, what is your point? I'm not promoting anything. I respect that everyone has different viewpoints, but that doesn't make mine invalid.


What are you responding to? I didn't hear anything... :whistle

[Ferd]

Now that you have bought the lie that the media has told you (That conservatives only pay lip service to the pro-life crowed to get elected) how about some truth...

In a two-page letter sent to the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, and the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, Mr. Bush said his veto threat would apply to any measures that “allow taxpayer dollars to be used for the destruction of human life.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/washington/04veto.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Ask yourself would a democrat allow public funds to support abortion?

President Bush confirmed at a White House lunch for GOP congressional leaders Monday that as one of his first acts as president he will reinstate the so-called global gag rule, which blocks U.S. funds being given to international family-planning groups that offer abortion and abortion counseling.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,96275,00.html

Partial birth abortion has been banned.

Ask yourself how this happened. 2 seats on the Supreme Court is why it happened.

This nonsense that the Bush administration has done nothing to stop abortion is almost laughable, not a single pro-choice advocate will agree with you on this.


Bump for Stew!

[tstew]

Bump for Stew!

I read it and somehow it still doesn't change what I feel and posted about the millions who have been aborted...and the millions who will be aborted after we elect McCain.

[Rico]

You guys have very hypocrital viewpoints. You go on and on about protecting the lives of the unborn, and then balk at the idea of that baby being guaranteed healthcare by the government. You criticize socialism when it doesn't take a whole of Bible reading to see that God instituted socialistic requirements of the people of Israel. It's like you want to agree with God's principles, but you also want to pick and choose which of those principles are convenient for you. It doesn't cost you anything to be pro-life, so you back that principle, but supporting welfare and other programs that will cost you money are a different story. I'm getting so tired of this merry go 'round with y'all it isn't funny. Don't give some lame excuse that you are supporting righteousness, because you only support the kind of righteousness that doesn't cost you anything.

[Ferd]

You guys have very hypocrital viewpoints. You go on and on about protecting the lives of the unborn, and then balk at the idea of that baby being guaranteed healthcare by the government. You criticize socialism when it doesn't take a whole of Bible reading to see that God instituted socialistic requirements of the people of Israel. It's like you want to agree with God's principles, but you also want to pick and choose which of those principles are convenient for you. It doesn't cost you anything to be pro-life, so you back that principle, but supporting welfare and other programs that will cost you money are a different story. I'm getting so tired of this merry go 'round with y'all it isn't funny. Don't give some lame excuse that you are supporting righteousness, because you only support the kind of righteousness that doesn't cost you anything.


what a stinking pile of elephant poo!

I guess i am a hypocrit for opposing bank robbery and also oppose government giving cash to poor people with no strings attached.

good grief rico. how silly do you have to get? dude, try your argument out before posting it! people are reading what your write! LOL.


here is the deal Rico. in the first place we are talking about protecting a human life, in the second place we are talking about government taking control of 1/7th of the American Economy with NO PROOF THAT IT WILL WORK!

There is no conservitive that thinks children should be denied healthcare. but what we do not want is BAD LAW that wont fix the problem and will take $$$$$ from our pocket books.

Nice try but your selling snake oil and there aint nobody around here dumb enough to buy it.

[OnenessWoman]

for all those hating the republicans you should research what the demonrats have done in the last 2 years while they have had control of congress.
LOL!

and they say the republicans are all about the politics...:ursofunny



IMO, they are much the same.

There is a sign that I notice from time to time on a building that is the headquarters for a nearby town's republican headquarters that makes mention of it being "Lincoln's Party". I balk about every time I see it as I doubt that Lincoln would even recognize what the Republican party is today...

And, well...the governator of CA was correct when he stated, "Democrats are losers."

I am a proudly registered INDEPENDENT!! I have one of the votes that both parties drool over... Losers, both of them...

[Ferd]

Oh, and GOD DID NOT INSTITUTE SOCIALISTIC ANYTING FOR ISRAEL!

[Ferd]

I read it and somehow it still doesn't change what I feel and posted about the millions who have been aborted...and the millions who will be aborted after we elect McCain.

we have made the round stew. if you cant be convinced that is your right. that wont make me stop respecting you.

I simply cannot buy into the notoin that because its been a long time and because mistakes have been made (and admitted to) that this is a reason to abandon a worthy cause by voting for people who are not only avowed abotion supporter but will go so far as infanticide to shield Roe.

that isnt something I can agree with.

Do you argue that GWB has been anything other than fantastically Pro-Life?

[Ferd]

IMO, they are much the same.

There is a sign that I notice from time to time on a building that is the headquarters for a nearby town's republican headquarters that makes mention of it being "Lincoln's Party". I balk about every time I see it as I doubt that Lincoln would even recognize what the Republican party is today...

And, well...the governator of CA was correct when he stated, "Democrats are losers."

I am a proudly registered INDEPENDENT!! I have one of the votes that both parties drool over... Losers, both of them...


and all I am saying is that as an independant you have to see something in John McCain that fits your politics. he isnt typical republican and he bucks anyone that doesnt agree with him.... even if it isnt politically expedient.

like I said, there are things about him I dont agree with, but there is a reason the call him a Mavrick.

[OnenessWoman]

Gods charge is to Christians. NOT the state.

Dat's rite!

[Rico]

Oh, and GOD DID NOT INSTITUTE SOCIALISTIC ANYTING FOR ISRAEL!

What do you think the tithe was used for, Ferd? Are you that dense? It wasn't to make the church rich. It was for the poor and needy. It was a WELFARE program instituted by GOD HIMSELF! Go argue with Him and tell Him His ideas are elephant dung. There's a whole lot more God ordered for the poor people than just a tithing program too. How about the welfare system for the widows in the church? That's a NT principle. Is that good enough for you? Good grief! You people are something else!

[tstew]

we have made the round stew. if you cant be convinced that is your right. that wont make me stop respecting you.

I simply cannot buy into the notoin that because its been a long time and because mistakes have been made (and admitted to) that this is a reason to abandon a worthy cause by voting for people who are not only avowed abotion supporter but will go so far as infanticide to shield Roe.

that isnt something I can agree with.

Do you argue that GWB has been anything other than fantastically Pro-Life?

My point is that I have come to realize that we will not demand the results that we want and that we will be satisfied with the millions of murders as long as a politician says the right things. I am fully convinced that after 4 years of a McCain Presidency, we will be having the exact same debates and they will be playing the exact same cards.
And as far as Bush being fantastically "Pro-life" I am more concerned about the millions of babies who are unfantastically dead.

It's good to know that you respect me though :).

I probably better quit posting about this though. I guess I get frustrated because I happen to belong to two demographics that in my opinion get played like a fiddle during election season and support based on issues that they don't see real results on. It just seems to me that politicians can pretty much pencil in their support no matter what and I just don't see a tremendous real-life return for the support in real-life.

[Baron1710]

I read it and somehow it still doesn't change what I feel and posted about the millions who have been aborted...and the millions who will be aborted after we elect McCain.

So what do you think ought to be done about abortion? I have been intimately involved in the fight against abortion so I am aware of what is going on from a legal point. There is a thing called the rule of law in our country and laws change slowly, do you think abortion was legalized overnight?

Did you know that the Lady who was used to file the Roe lawsuit legalizing abortion stood in front of 70,000 people on Saturday and begged for forgiveness? And said she was used by those Democrats you seem to think will save us.


Things Republicans have done.

1. Appointing judges who will overturn Roe v. Wade and Planned parenthood v. Casey

2. Suing Planed Barronhood's security gaurds when they become overly aggressive with protestors (which gives us access to Planned Barrenhoods funds through the doctrine of Respondeat Superior)

3. Suing Planned Barronhood when they botch abortions and cause the young lady to be sterile

4. Successfully passing legislation banning partial birth abortion

5. Successfully defending that legislation in the SC with all 5 of the Justices who were in the majority being put there by Republicans.

6. Blocking funding of abortions with US tax dollars.

Again I ask you what should be done that we are not doing? And what will Democrats do?

[tstew]

So what do you think ought to be done about abortion? I have been intimately involved in the fight against abortion so I am aware of what is going on from a legal point. There is a thing called the rule of law in our country and laws change slowly, do you think abortion was legalized overnight?

Did you know that the Lady who was used to file the Roe lawsuit legalizing abortion stood in front of 70,000 people on Saturday and begged for forgiveness? And said she was used by those Democrats you seem to think will save us.


Things Republicans have done.

1. Appointing judges who will overturn Roe v. Wade and Planned parenthood v. Casey

2. Suing Planed Barronhood's security gaurds when they become overly aggressive with protestors (which gives us access to Planned Barrenhoods funds through the doctrine of Respondeat Superior)

3. Suing Planned Barronhood when they botch abortions and cause the young lady to be sterile

4. Successfully passing legislation banning partial birth abortion

5. Successfully defending that legislation in the SC with all 5 of the Justices who were in the majority being put there by Republicans.

6. Blocking funding of abortions with US tax dollars.

Again I ask you what should be done that we are not doing? And what will Democrats do?

Baron, would you be so patient and understanding of the "system" if it were indeed a million 10 year olds being killed every year. My point is that abortion is either murder or it is not. If it is murder then I don't understand how we can have it be a central point of election after election without something actually substantial

[Baron1710]

Baron, would you be so patient and understanding of the "system" if it were indeed a million 10 year olds being killed every year. My point is that abortion is either murder or it is not. If it is murder then I don't understand how we can have it be a central point of election after election without something actually substantial

Your avoiding the question.

Are you suggesting we resort to violence?

or are you suggesting it is not murder?

You also are burying your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge how much has been done.

[Ferd]

Baron, would you be so patient and understanding of the "system" if it were indeed a million 10 year olds being killed every year. My point is that abortion is either murder or it is not. If it is murder then I don't understand how we can have it be a central point of election after election without something actually substantial

if a smooth 50% of the population thought it was fine to kill 10 year olds, and it was legal to kill 10 year olds, I suspect it would take a good bit of time to get rid of the practice.

in this case somewhere around 60% of Americans thing some form of abortion should be legal. actually that number may be higher.

for what ever reason, those who support abortion on demand (up to and including the ninth month) have convinced more than half the country that Roe protects that basic premis.... thus the decades old battle.

[tstew]

Your avoiding the question.

Are you suggesting we resort to violence?

or are you suggesting it is not murder?

You also are burying your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge how much has been done.

I am not avoiding the question. I have answered it a million times. I have said that we should be demanding specific actions as a prerequisite for our support based on this issue...then holding those people accountable if they do not execute. Millions of people are going to vote their conscious in this area and noone is saying what they demand to have happen.
You tell me exactly what McCain is going to deliver and what we are holding them responsible for and when it is going to happen...then I'll talk about the issue of abortion in election.
And maybe you can tell me now exactly what is going to happen in the next four years under McCain so that I can mark it down and then tell you that you were right whenever it does happen.

[Baron1710]

I am not avoiding the question. I have answered it a million times. I have said that we should be demanding specific actions as a prerequisite for our support based on this issue...then holding those people accountable if they do not execute. Millions of people are going to vote their conscious in this area and noone is saying what they demand to have happen.
You tell me exactly what McCain is going to deliver and what we are holding them responsible for and when it is going to happen...then I'll talk about the issue of abortion in election.
And maybe you can tell me now exactly what is going to happen in the next four years under McCain so that I can mark it down and then tell you that you were right whenever it does happen.

You didn't answer the question do you think abortion is murder. I am interested in knowing your position on this.

If McCain is elected you will see a swing in the court that will amaze you. With 4 and 1/2 justices we are making headway, just think what we could do with 5 or 6 to undo the damage that has been done. I know I have said this before but Jay Sekulow says this all the time, "All you have to do to win at the Supreme Court is count to 5."

[tstew]

You didn't answer the question do you think abortion is murder. I am interested in knowing your position on this.

If McCain is elected you will see a swing in the court that will amaze you. With 4 and 1/2 justices we are making headway, just think what we could do with 5 or 6 to undo the damage that has been done. I know I have said this before but Jay Sekulow says this all the time, "All you have to do to win at the Supreme Court is count to 5."

Oh, I didn't realize that that was the question you were asking. Yes, I absolutely think that abortion is murder and that is why I refuse to look at abortion numbers as stats and prefer to approach this as if 1 million 10 year olds were being murdered every year.

[Baron1710]

Oh, I didn't realize that that was the question you were asking. Yes, I absolutely think that abortion is murder and that is why I refuse to look at abortion numbers as stats and prefer to approach this as if 1 million 10 year olds were being murdered every year.

Then the question I would ask you is what are YOU doing about it?

[tstew]

Then the question I would ask you is what are YOU doing about it?

I am trying to stop politicians from using hot-button issues to their advantage all the while secure in their knowledge that they really don't have to do much. My problem is that I am not in the position of power to directly combat this, but hundreds of "pro-life" leaders are...they just are not required to. The campaign button is sufficient.

Baron, you said that I am burying my head in the sand and not acknowledging how much has been done. What I say is that what has actually been done is disproportionate to how much is said in this area every election. It is always a key platform position for decades now, and I personally do not believe that what has actually been done is proportionate to the support that many politicians have received primarily based on this issue...And I feel that hundreds of thousands of souls bear this out every year.

[Baron1710]

I am trying to stop politicians from using hot-button issues to their advantage all the while secure in their knowledge that they really don't have to do much. My problem is that I am not in the position of power to directly combat this, but hundreds of "pro-life" leaders are...they just are not required to. The campaign button is sufficient.

Baron, you said that I am burying my head in the sand and not acknowledging how much has been done. What I say is that what has actually been done is disproportionate to how much is said in this area every election. It is always a key platform position for decades now, and I personally do not believe that what has actually been done is proportionate to the support that many politicians have received primarily based on this issue...And I feel that hundreds of thousands of souls bear this out every year.

Assuming for the sake of argument what you say is true, your solution is you will vote for those who think it is a great thing to murder children and will appoint judges who will solidify these laws for decades more.

How does that make sense in your mind?

[tstew]

Assuming for the sake of argument what you say is true, your solution is you will vote for those who think it is a great thing to murder children and will appoint judges who will solidify these laws for decades more.

How does that make sense in your mind?

No, I have never voted Democrat and have never solicited anyone to. In fact I have these same kinds of conversations with Black folk who vote Democrat as a matter of rule and have no concrete result of their support. My stance is that if we are going to make pro-life be an automatic vote getter, we should use our democratic weight much more judiciously and effectively or else it is all lip-service, propaganda, and pretty useless in real life. I wonder how many babies were murdered during our conversation...if only the Republicans had been in power.

[tstew]

I've got to run and get some work done but let me just say this. I fancy myself somewhat of a wordsmith, and I've come to realize a few things about words. Words are very paradoxical. Words are immensely powerful while at the same time utterly useless. I am no longer impressed by what anyone says. The old adage that actions speaks louder than words has dissapeared from the public consciousness (and from churches, but that's another whole story). The irony for me is that many people who criticize Obama supporters for being swayed by words, have actually themselves been doing so for decades.
It is simply not enough for me anymore for someone to say that they are pro-life. What are you going to do about abortion if you want my moral vote. Otherwise don't even talk about it.

[Baron1710]

No, I have never voted Democrat and have never solicited anyone to. In fact I have these same kinds of conversations with Black folk who vote Democrat as a matter of rule and have no concrete result of their support. My stance is that if we are going to make pro-life be an automatic vote getter, we should use our democratic weight much more judiciously and effectively or else it is all lip-service, propaganda, and pretty useless in real life. I wonder how many babies were murdered during our conversation...if only the Republicans had been in power.

I understand what you are saying, but if you will look at the facts honestly I think you will see that you are wrong on abortion and the Republicans.

1. We got in the fight late, which means we had a lot of ground to make up in terms of educating voters and reversing laws.

2. From the national level we have done all that we can until we have another justice on the court, legislation banning abortion would be shot down by the SC at this point in time.

3. A lot is being done on the state level, where most Republicans believe this issue should be decided anyway (federalism).

Now if you want to take the Republicans to task do it where they have blown it...SPENDING.

[OnenessWoman]

If McCain is elected you will see a swing in the court that will amaze you. With 4 and 1/2 justices we are making headway, just think what we could do with 5 or 6 to undo the damage that has been done. I know I have said this before but Jay Sekulow says this all the time, "All you have to do to win at the Supreme Court is count to 5."


Brennan used to ask his law clerks what the most important law was at the Supreme Court.

The answer was "Five."


I have read that they thought had it with O'Connor because she said she not personally believe in abortion, but left out that she did not think the government should outlaw it.

[Carpenter]

You guys have very hypocrital viewpoints. You go on and on about protecting the lives of the unborn, and then balk at the idea of that baby being guaranteed healthcare by the government.

There are so many falsehoods in this one sentence, I have to keep from laughing.

I balk at the government guaranteeing anything. The falicy here is that the government can provide anything efficiently using money taken from people who are the hardest workers. The second lie is that baby's do not get health care. Newsflash, they do, any baby anywhere, regardless if they have money or not.

You criticize socialism when it doesn't take a whole of Bible reading to see that God instituted socialistic requirements of the people of Israel.

Explain

It's like you want to agree with God's principles, but you also want to pick and choose which of those principles are convenient for you. It doesn't cost you anything to be pro-life, so you back that principle, but supporting welfare and other programs that will cost you money are a different story.

Vomit. You are talking about the two choices and situations YOU chose. This is so transparent, you think you are creating some deep paradox relating to money, but this is a non-sequitor. One does not relate to the other. I am amazed you are not convicted sitting there in your recliner during the day eating government cheese sandwiches, taking the money I earned, the money I took risks for, the money I worked for. Shame on you I am not angry because welfare costs me money, I am angry because you feel you are entitled to it...oh yea, you have a cheeto stuck in your nose...

I'm getting so tired of this merry go 'round with y'all it isn't funny. Don't give some lame excuse that you are supporting righteousness, because you only support the kind of righteousness that doesn't cost you anything.

Just because you say it doesn't cost us anything doesn't make it so. I have WORK ETHIC and that costs me, it costs me relaxation, and deprives me from knowing what is going on on General Hospital, it costs me because I can't be like you and get 11 hours of sleep a night.

[Carpenter]

I've got to run and get some work done but let me just say this. I fancy myself somewhat of a wordsmith, and I've come to realize a few things about words. Words are very paradoxical. Words are immensely powerful while at the same time utterly useless. I am no longer impressed by what anyone says. The old adage that actions speaks louder than words has dissapeared from the public consciousness (and from churches, but that's another whole story). The irony for me is that many people who criticize Obama supporters for being swayed by words, have actually themselves been doing so for decades.
It is simply not enough for me anymore for someone to say that they are pro-life. What are you going to do about abortion if you want my moral vote. Otherwise don't even talk about it.

Liberals are so easily impressed by a fancy shell, because they don't have to care that it is filled with air.

Liberals don't believe anything has an underbelly, everything is...floaty, and light, and pretty, and....ultimately fake.

[tstew]

Liberals are so easily impressed by a fancy shell, because they don't have to care that it is filled with air.

Liberals don't believe anything has an underbelly, everything is...floaty, and light, and pretty, and....ultimately fake.

Brother, I tend to agree, but I know many conservatives and ultra-conservatives who are as easily impressed by fancy shells. I know many for whom the shell is all that matters. Substance, balance, honesty, and objectivity are what is missing for a lot of people on both extremes.

[Rico]

There are so many falsehoods in this one sentence, I have to keep from laughing.

I balk at the government guaranteeing anything. The falicy here is that the government can provide anything efficiently using money taken from people who are the hardest workers. The second lie is that baby's do not get health care. Newsflash, they do, any baby anywhere, regardless if they have money or not.



Explain



Vomit. You are talking about the two choices and situations YOU chose. This is so transparent, you think you are creating some deep paradox relating to money, but this is a non-sequitor. One does not relate to the other. I am amazed you are not convicted sitting there in your recliner during the day eating government cheese sandwiches, taking the money I earned, the money I took risks for, the money I worked for. Shame on you I am not angry because welfare costs me money, I am angry because you feel you are entitled to it...oh yea, you have a cheeto stuck in your nose...



Just because you say it doesn't cost us anything doesn't make it so. I have WORK ETHIC and that costs me, it costs me relaxation, and deprives me from knowing what is going on on General Hospital, it costs me because I can't be like you and get 11 hours of sleep a night.

Yo, Carpo, I sit in my office chair and post in between phone calls I take for my work from home job. Get your facts straight before you start shooting off at the mouth about things you know nothing about. :snapout

[Dora]

Have you heard the sound loop they played on Laura Ingraham and Rush where Obama hems and haws and uhs and ers for 8 minutes? Amazing.

[TRFrance]

Interesting, I think the same thing about McCain-- he's just another politician.
Obama is genuine.

Read this article, and watch the YouTube video, and tell me how "genuine" his actions seem to you here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obamavotes24jan24,1,7079399.story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7KQnD1nXUI

[OnTheFritz]

Have you heard the sound loop they played on Laura Ingraham and Rush where Obama hems and haws and uhs and ers for 8 minutes? Amazing.


You really want to go down this road with GWB in the Whitehouse? 8 minutes of verbal stumbling vs an entire presidency?

[tstew]

You really want to go down this road with GWB in the Whitehouse? 8 minutes of verbal stumbling vs an entire presidency?

Derrick, I actually had to bite my tongue (or finger?) to keep from saying the same thing. If anyone who supports Bush is going to castigate anybody for their verbal stumbling, it is the height of irony. There are so many instances of verbal flaws in Bush that I would probably steer clear of that whole topic.

[OnTheFritz]

Derrick, I actually had to bite my tongue (or finger?) to keep from saying the same thing. If anyone who supports Bush is going to castigate anybody for their verbal stumbling, it is the height of irony. There are so many instances of verbal flaws in Bush that I would probably steer clear of that whole topic.

Yeah - I just couldn't let that one go... :lol

[Jekyll]

How does jello tie itself into knots? Or, how does slime for that matter? It just oozes into another shape and calls it good.

[Rico]

You really want to go down this road with GWB in the Whitehouse? 8 minutes of verbal stumbling vs an entire presidency?

Derrick, I actually had to bite my tongue (or finger?) to keep from saying the same thing. If anyone who supports Bush is going to castigate anybody for their verbal stumbling, it is the height of irony. There are so many instances of verbal flaws in Bush that I would probably steer clear of that whole topic.

Yeah - I just couldn't let that one go... :lol


Can you say, "nucelar'? :lol The most important issue facing mankind and Bush still can't even pronounce it right, after almost 8 years. Yeah, let's make fun of Obama for a few stumbles he's made while speaking. Makes sense to me. :crazy

[Jekyll]

Obama is the kind of person who thinks about what he's saying as he goes, carefully choosing his words, rather than blurting out the first thing that comes to his mind. A lot of people confuse this for stumbling his way through what he's saying, but they're wrong. My Dad does the same thing when he speaks, and it drives me nuts.

Also, you guys need to grow up and stop all this "Osbama, Oblama, Osama, Obamination" nonsense.

You forgot oSCAMa...yeah, he thinks pretty carefully how to scam his way to the presidency.

The Democrats must be hurting if all they can come up with for a presidential candidate is a former first lady or this clown.

[Rico]

You forgot oSCAMa...yeah, he thinks pretty carefully how to scam his way to the presidency.

The Democrats must be hurting if all they can come up with for a presidential candidate is a former first lady or this clown.

Right. Like the Republicans came up with a good choice. Please. McCain would be lucky to live to the end of his first term. He's too old to be President. He wasn't even a conservative until he decided to run for President. Talk about running a scam! McCain has pulled that off without a hitch. The Democrats should probably be thanking the Republicans for handing the election to them on a silver platter like they've done. I am going to enjoy watching McCain get sent to the nursing home where he belongs come November. :evilglee

[Aquila]

For the Republicans the "abortion card" is one of the best tactics they have to manipulate religious voters.

Here's a very serious question....

Which nation on earth has the lowest abortion rate per every 1000 pregnancies (including statistical analysis based on maternal morbidity)? Is that nation a Pro-Life nation or a Pro-Choice nation?

Let's see what nation has gotten results and examine their social policies and stop this stupid debate. We're either in this to save lives or engage in mindless debate that ends with the same ol' debate every election cycle.

[Jekyll]

For the Republicans the "abortion card" is one of the best tactics they have to manipulate religious voters.

Here's a very serious question....

Which nation on earth has the lowest abortion rate per every 1000 pregnancies (including statistical analysis based on maternal morbidity)? Is that nation a Pro-Life nation or a Pro-Choice nation?

Let's see what nation has gotten results and examine their social policies and stop this stupid debate. We're either in this to save lives or engage in mindless debate that ends with the same ol' debate every election cycle.

Very vague and misdirecting support of oSCAMa. Typical. Nothing anyone can say justifies putting this scam artist into the oval office.

[Jekyll]

Right. Like the Republicans came up with a good choice. Please. McCain would be lucky to live to the end of his first term. He's too old to be President. He wasn't even a conservative until he decided to run for President. Talk about running a scam! McCain has pulled that off without a hitch. The Democrats should probably be thanking the Republicans for handing the election to them on a silver platter like they've done. I am going to enjoy watching McCain get sent to the nursing home where he belongs come November. :evilglee
Thank you for ending your masquerade as a Republican. I'm sure Nader would love to have you on his team.

[Rico]

Thank you for ending your masquerade as a Republican. I'm sure Nader would love to have you on his team.

What masquerade? I've said publicly several times that Bush turned me against the Republican party. Well, him, and how sick I am of supporting them while they constantly lie to the American people. That isn't a secret. You need to come and join in the fun on these political threads more often, Jekyll. We have all kinds of fun on them. :D

[Jekyll]

What masquerade? I've said publicly several times that Bush turned me against the Republican party. Well, him, and how sick I am of supporting them while they constantly lie to the American people. That isn't a secret. You need to come and join in the fun on these political threads more often, Jekyll. We have all kinds of fun on them. :D

THIS masquerade...

Ferd, I've voted Republican in every election since I turned 18. It was not an easy turn. I've had it with Republicans and their lies. They don't care one bit for the working man in this country.

How long has it been since I've posted on the forum at all?? If I can't stand the idiocy going on in the general forum for lengths of time, I'd go crazy if I read much of the political ignorance that the oSCAMa supporters regurgitate.

[Aquila]

Very vague and misdirecting support of oSCAMa. Typical. Nothing anyone can say justifies putting this scam artist into the oval office.

For crying out loud, ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Which nation on earth has the lowest abortion rate per every 1000 pregnancies (including statistical analysis based on maternal morbidity)? Is that nation a Pro-Life nation or a Pro-Choice nation?

Let's see what nation has gotten results and examine their social policies and stop this stupid debate. We're either in this to save lives or engage in mindless debate that ends with the same ol' debate every election cycle.

[Aquila]

Thank you for ending your masquerade as a Republican. I'm sure Nader would love to have you on his team.

End the personal attack or I'll report you lickity split. Ease up and discuss...don't attack.

Which nation on earth has the lowest abortion rate per every 1000 pregnancies (including statistical analysis of maternal morbidity)? Is it a conservative Pro-Life nation or a liberal Pro-Choice nation?

[Jekyll]

For crying out loud, ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Which nation on earth has the lowest abortion rate per every 1000 pregnancies (including statistical analysis based on maternal morbidity)? Is that nation a Pro-Life nation or a Pro-Choice nation?

Let's see what nation has gotten results and examine their social policies and stop this stupid debate. We're either in this to save lives or engage in mindless debate that ends with the same ol' debate every election cycle.

Yup...oSCAMa is committed to saving lives...yup, of the born and especially the unborn...yup


Phssssh pleeze.

[Jekyll]

How does jello tie itself into knots? Or, how does slime for that matter? It just oozes into another shape and calls it good.
This bears repeating.

[Aquila]

Yup...oSCAMa is committed to saving lives...yup, of the born and especially the unborn...yup


Phssssh pleeze.

Jekyll, stop butchering this man's name. End your personal attacks. And ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Which nation on earth has the lowest abortion rate per every 1000 pregnancies (including statistical analysis based on maternal morbidity)? Is that nation a Pro-Life nation or a Pro-Choice nation?

Let's see what nation has gotten results and examine their social policies and stop this stupid debate. We're either in this to save lives or engage in mindless debate that ends with the same ol' debate every election cycle.

I'm asking you respectfully not to butcher his name, I wouldn't do that to your name, and I certainly wouldn't like hearing someone professing to be a mature Christian butchering names or calling you out of your name. And your attack on Rico is uncalled for. His my friend and a brother in Christ. I don't know you all that well, but you're a brother in Christ also. If his difference in opinion makes you feel the need to personally attack him, there's a bigger issue than Rico's politics. Now...I'm not personally attacking you. I'm asking you to stick to the subject and answer the question....

Which nation on earth has the lowest abortion rate per every 1000 pregnancies (including statistical analysis based on maternal morbidity)? Is that nation a Pro-Life nation or a Pro-Choice nation?

[Rico]

THIS masquerade...



How long has it been since I've posted on the forum at all?? If I can't stand the idiocy going on in the general forum for lengths of time, I'd go crazy if I read much of the political ignorance that the oSCAMa supporters regurgitate.

I didn't lie about that. Are you calling me a liar? I've voted Republican in every national election since I turned 18. Why would I lie about that? :snapout

I'll tell you what's a true show of ignorance. People who think it's cute to mock Barack Obama's name. It has to be one of the most ignorant juvenile behaviours I've seen coming from grown men in a long time. Well, that and all this nonsense about Obama being a secret Muslim. That one was straight out of Jr. High mentality.

Other than that, I've enjoyed taking Obama's side on these forums. Been upset a couple of times and had to back off, but that's pretty normal for AFF. You should post more often. I get tired of picking on the same people all the time! :D

[Aquila]

Interesting article....

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/1/gpr090102.html

I find the abortion rates interesting....



Just as laws banning abortion do not stop women from having them, it is equally true that permissive laws do not cause them to do so. Abortion is legal, free and widely available in the Netherlands, for example, yet that country is home to one of the world’s lowest abortion rates. By contrast, abortion is completely illegal in countries as diverse as Peru, the Philippines and Uganda, but all have abortion rates that far exceed the rate in the United States (see table).

LEGAL AND RARE
Where abortion is illegal, the rates often surpass that of the United States and can far surpass the rates in many other countries where abortion is legal.
Most recent rates per 1,000 reproductive-age women
Legal Illegal
Belgium 7 Dominican Republic 47
Germany 8 Peru 56
Netherlands 9 Philippines 27
Switzerland 9 Uganda 54
United States 21
Sources: Guttmacher Institute and WHO Regional Office for Europe.


Belgium is a very liberalized and prochoice country...but it has the lowest abortion rate on earth.

[Jekyll]

Nah, don't need this jr. high stuff. Not calling you a liar about your voting record. Just because you have voted a certain way for x number of years earns you what? For the nonsense you have been spouting on this thread, you have been showing your self to be masquerading as a Republican for all these years.

You just wait till oSCAMa makes leagues with all kinds of muslim nations and breaks alliances with Israel. You won't be screaming jr. high then.

You and the rest of the loonies supporting this guy will be wanting George W. Bush foreign policy to save your skin in those times.

[Jekyll]

Cut and paste...congratulations.

[Aquila]

Cut and paste...congratulations.

You know....you're not worth wasting my time over. Enjoy your crusade.

I sincerely pray that eventually we move beyond this stupid debate between prochoice and prolife. And move into a united effort to prevent abortion through means that are proven to have results.

Until then...babies die as the debate rages. Blood is on all hands.

[Rico]

Nah, don't need this jr. high stuff. Not calling you a liar about your voting record. Just because you have voted a certain way for x number of years earns you what? For the nonsense you have been spouting on this thread, you have been showing your self to be masquerading as a Republican for all these years.

You just wait till oSCAMa makes leagues with all kinds of muslim nations and breaks alliances with Israel. You won't be screaming jr. high then.

You and the rest of the loonies supporting this guy will be wanting George W. Bush foreign policy to save your skin in those times.

Oh, ok. I voted Republican because I was really a Democrat? Yeah. That would make all the sense in the world, Jekyll. Until you learn to use the man's name correctly, you have no business calling what anyone does on this thread nonsense.

See? You've bought the lie. Obama is a secret Muslim. How pathetic. I would have hoped that you were smarter than that, Jekyll. Guess I thought wrong.

[Jekyll]

Oh, ok. I voted Republican because I was really a Democrat? Yeah. That would make all the sense in the world, Jekyll. Until you learn to use the man's name correctly, you have no business calling what anyone does on this thread nonsense.

See? You've bought the lie. Obama is a secret Muslim. How pathetic. I would have hoped that you were smarter than that, Jekyll. Guess I thought wrong.
I bought a lie? Sorry, I'm not a media baby that believes everything it force feeds to America. His muslim sympathies are not a very big secret. I haven't bought into a lie, rather, you refuse to see the true character and agenda this guy has and throw a couple of more scoops of sand on your head whenever this guy's fallacies come up.

Never said you were a democrat.

I know how to pronounce the guy's name, I wish to call him what he is.

[Jekyll]

You know....you're not worth wasting my time over. Enjoy your crusade.

I sincerely pray that eventually we move beyond this stupid debate between prochoice and prolife. And move into a united effort to prevent abortion through means that are proven to have results.

Until then...babies die as the debate rages. Blood is on all hands.
You can polarize your support of oSCAMa with abortion all you want. It's not all about that. This is a pretty poor reason to support this artist.

"Why do you support oSCAMA????"
"Because I want to stop arguing about abortion."

Ummmm yeah ok

[Rico]

I bought a lie? Sorry, I'm not a media baby that believes everything it force feeds to America. His muslim sympathies are not a very big secret. I haven't bought into a lie, rather, you refuse to see the true character and agenda this guy has and throw a couple of more scoops of sand on your head whenever this guy's fallacies come up.

Never said you were a democrat.

I know how to pronounce the guy's name, I wish to call him what he is.

I'm a pretty good judge of character, Jekyll. I will admit Bush had me fooled, but I've learned from that mistake. If I decide to vote this time around (at this point I am not voting for anyone), I will base my vote on the issues and the candidates' positions on the issues. I will say that the last week or so I have started feeling that maybe I should go ahead and vote, but it hasn't been strong enough to change my mind on not voting.

In case you are wondering, the days of me allowing the abortion issue to carry any more weight than any other issue are long gone. I'm pro-choice, but have allowed my religious beliefs on abortion to carry more weight than they should have in the past. Every issue will get equal billing in the decision making process, should I decide to vote.

Either way, I hope that whoever gets elected gets the respect he deserves as President. All this nonsense about his name needs to stop. One day we may find ourselves choosing between candidates named Lopez and Chang. All this thinly veiled ethnic nonsense needs to be shown the door, especially by supposed Holy Ghost filled Christians.

[Jekyll]

I'm a pretty good judge of character, Jekyll. I will admit Bush had me fooled, but I've learned from that mistake. If I decide to vote this time around (at this point I am not voting for anyone), I will base my vote on the issues and the candidates' positions on the issues. I will say that the last week or so I have started feeling that maybe I should go ahead and vote, but it hasn't been strong enough to change my mind on not voting.

In case you are wondering, the days of me allowing the abortion issue to carry any more weight than any other issue are long gone. I'm pro-choice, but have allowed my religious beliefs on abortion to carry more weight than they should have in the past. Every issue will get equal billing in the decision making process, should I decide to vote.

Either way, I hope that whoever gets elected gets the respect he deserves as President. All this nonsense about his name needs to stop. One day we may find ourselves choosing between candidates named Lopez and Chang. All this thinly veiled ethnic nonsense needs to be shown the door, especially by supposed Holy Ghost filled Christians.

Oh, don't show how ignorant you are by calling the name I've given him racial or ethnic. Thinly veiled? YOU just injected racism where there is none. Why are you so sensitive to a Latin or Asian name? This causes me to think that you yourself are a bigot and racist.

This is moronic. You need to get out of the computer room in the dungeon and get some fresh air.

This is irrational. And I'm participating. I TOLD you earlier I get nauseated at this ignorant idiocy.

[Rico]

Oh, don't show how ignorant you are by calling the name I've given him racial or ethnic. Thinly veiled? YOU just injected racism where there is none. Why are you so sensitive to a Latin or Asian name? This causes me to think that you yourself are a bigot and racist.

This is moronic. You need to get out of the computer room in the dungeon and get some fresh air.

This is irrational. And I'm participating. I TOLD you earlier I get nauseated at this ignorant idiocy.


If you don't want people to think you are mocking him for his ethnicity, then maybe you should stop butchering his name. BTW, I think it would be great for a Latino or an Asian to make it to the Oval Office. I also think it would be great for a woman to win the Presidency. Lastly, who is forcing you to post on this thread?

[Jekyll]

If you don't want people to think you are mocking him for his ethnicity, then maybe you should stop butchering his name. BTW, I think it would be great for a Latino or an Asian to make it to the Oval Office. I also think it would be great for a woman to win the Presidency. Lastly, who is forcing you to post on this thread?

So you think CC1, who butchers everyone's name is a racist for doing so?

[Rico]

So you think CC1, who butchers everyone's name is a racist for doing so?

This post is almost not worth responding to. CC1 butchers people's names in fun, kinda like he referred to Brother Godair as Brother Goat Hair. He isn't trying to discredit anyone. You and others, on the other hand, are doing it to be disrespectful and malign Barack Obama's character. Big difference.

Anyway, it's time for me to go nite nite. Maybe we can chat on another thread a different day. I'm making an effort to engage you in conversation, so I can get to know you better. You have a good night. :)

[Jekyll]

This post is almost not worth responding to. CC1 butchers people's names in fun, kinda like he referred to Brother Godair as Brother Goat Hair. He isn't trying to discredit anyone. You and others, on the other hand, are doing it to be disrespectful and malign Barack Obama's character. Big difference.

Anyway, it's time for me to go nite nite. Maybe we can chat on another thread a different day. I'm making an effort to engage you in conversation, so I can get to know you better. You have a good night. :)
Just calling him who he is, Rics, a SCAM artist. He done scammed you like he has all of the media addicts. No matter what you say, SCAM has no ethnic or racial preferences.

All manner of folks of different creed, race, religion, male, female are all getting SCAMMED hook line and middle east sinker.

[Aquila]

I bought a lie? Sorry, I'm not a media baby that believes everything it force feeds to America. His muslim sympathies are not a very big secret. I haven't bought into a lie, rather, you refuse to see the true character and agenda this guy has and throw a couple of more scoops of sand on your head whenever this guy's fallacies come up.

Never said you were a democrat.

I know how to pronounce the guy's name, I wish to call him what he is.

Are we as Christians supposed to hate muslims?

[Aquila]

So you think CC1, who butchers everyone's name is a racist for doing so?

You obviously hold hatred against other faith groups. I don't agree with them theologically, but I don't hate them. Most of them I know, and I know quite a few, are very good people. I'd appreciate it if you keep your hatred to yourself. We're dealing with insane extremists that are manipulating Islamic religious convictions to further their extremist agenda....kinda like some extreme Christian groups are doing in our country. The problem isn't Muslims or Christians. The problem is extremism and hatred.

[Aquila]

Oh, don't show how ignorant you are by calling the name I've given him racial or ethnic. Thinly veiled? YOU just injected racism where there is none. Why are you so sensitive to a Latin or Asian name? This causes me to think that you yourself are a bigot and racist.

This is moronic. You need to get out of the computer room in the dungeon and get some fresh air.

This is irrational. And I'm participating. I TOLD you earlier I get nauseated at this ignorant idiocy.

I don't find your statements racist. I find them expressive of hatred. Hatred for Democrats, hatred for Obama, hatred for muslims. Hate, hate, hate. The problem is all the hatred and extremism in our world today. I sadly, those who would bring some sense of sanity are caught in the cross-fire of all the stupidity.

[BrotherEastman]

Are we as Christians supposed to hate muslims?
Is that the reason you want us to vote for Obama? Are we as Christians supposed to hate adulterers?

[Aquila]

Is that the reason you want us to vote for Obama? Are we as Christians supposed to hate adulterers?

I said NOTHING about voting for Obama. (Frankly, a case can be made that voting for either candidate of the two leading parties is treason against American ideals.)

I asked, are we supposed to hate Muslims? ANSWER THE QUESTION.

[Ferd]

This post is almost not worth responding to. CC1 butchers people's names in fun, kinda like he referred to Brother Godair as Brother Goat Hair. He isn't trying to discredit anyone. You and others, on the other hand, are doing it to be disrespectful and malign Barack Obama's character. Big difference.

Anyway, it's time for me to go nite nite. Maybe we can chat on another thread a different day. I'm making an effort to engage you in conversation, so I can get to know you better. You have a good night. :)

I still think Obamanation is a great one.


it is actually the title of a new bestselling book on the chosen one.

[Ferd]

I said NOTHING about voting for Obama. (Frankly, a case can be made that voting for either candidate of the two leading parties is treason against American ideals.)

I asked, are we supposed to hate Muslims? ANSWER THE QUESTION.

sillly question.

you dont have to hate somoeone to know their baseline values are well outside of American values.

Muslims are committed to a faith that demands the law be based on thier holy scripture. Sharia Law is vile and antithetical to Western Ideology.

i dont have to hate a muslim to know I dont want one anywhere near the halls of power in this country.

[Aquila]

sillly question.

you dont have to hate somoeone to know their baseline values are well outside of American values.

Muslims are committed to a faith that demands the law be based on thier holy scripture. Sharia Law is vile and antithetical to Western Ideology.

i dont have to hate a muslim to know I dont want one anywhere near the halls of power in this country.

Thats a fair answer, but it ignores that most Muslims are not extremists and are not bent on imposing Sharia Law. While Islamic extremists consider them apostates, they want to live in peace and see a more "spiritual" interpretation of their faith.

Regardless, both parties are so far off the mark a vote for anything Republican or Democrat is treasonous to American ideals. The two greatest threats to American liberty are the Republican and Democratic parties.

[Ferd]

Thats a fair answer, but it ignores that most Muslims are not extremists and are not bent on imposing Sharia Law. While Islamic extremists consider them apostates, they want to live in peace and see a more "spiritual" interpretation of their faith.

Regardless, both parties are so far off the mark a vote for anything Republican or Democrat is treasonous to American ideals. The two greatest threats to American liberty are the Republican and Democratic parties.

Aquila, it isnt an extremist postion for a muslim to want Sharia law. Look at every single muslim country that has had the ability to vote. they ALL have some form of legal structure based on Sharia law.

that isnt an extremist position and it is the will and view of the VAST majority of muslims in the world.

Even moderate muslims in places like England have demanded and gotten Sharia courts.

[DividedThigh]

sounds like somebody has there head in the sand or just selective hearing, fact the vast majority of the muslim world wants you to be a muslim or dead, dt

[Ferd]

sounds like somebody has there head in the sand or just selective hearing, fact the vast majority of the muslim world wants you to be a muslim or dead, dt

Its the old "republicans want to kill old people" play.

It has worked well for dems for years and years even though it is a balled faced lie.

not wanting a muslim near the white house doesnt mean you hate muslims.
not wanting government run healthcare doesnt mean you want poor kids to be denied healthcare but it sounds good.

Its just a lie but the uneducated will buy into the stupid concept.

[DividedThigh]

i agree ferd and i also think that too many of the do gooders who never really do anything are forgetting that the muslims want us dead, and that we are at war with them whether we like it or not, turn your back on them and bam, knife in, dt

[Ferd]

i agree ferd and i also think that too many of the do gooders who never really do anything are forgetting that the muslims want us dead, and that we are at war with them whether we like it or not, turn your back on them and bam, knife in, dt

least we forget.

[DividedThigh]

well i havent and i know some locally who dont mind teaching there kids this ........, but if somebody whoops one of them it is bigotry, interesting concept, they want to kill us, but we are bigots, mmmmm, dt

[Rico]

I don't find your statements racist. I find them expressive of hatred. Hatred for Democrats, hatred for Obama, hatred for muslims. Hate, hate, hate. The problem is all the hatred and extremism in our world today. I sadly, those who would bring some sense of sanity are caught in the cross-fire of all the stupidity.

Exactamundo!

[DividedThigh]

whatever, lol, dont come to me when they come for you libs, i will be busy taking care of my family, dt

[Aquila]

Aquila, it isnt an extremist postion for a muslim to want Sharia law. Look at every single muslim country that has had the ability to vote. they ALL have some form of legal structure based on Sharia law.

that isnt an extremist position and it is the will and view of the VAST majority of muslims in the world.

Even moderate muslims in places like England have demanded and gotten Sharia courts.

Masses are easily manipulated by extremists. The extremists teach the masses that their way is the way of "God" and then then masses feel it necessary to support measures implimented and supported by the extremist regimes. It's like the Christian Right in America. Same deal. If we express serious disatisfaction with the Christian Right's political positions we are labeled "non-Christians", "pro-aborts", "murderers", "communists", etc. Sadly, rank and file believers are craving acceptance in a world that's hostile to their faith. When the Christian Right issues these rejections, psychologically, rank and file believers begin adopting and agreeing with even the most extreme of right wing policies crafted by the Christian Right.

There are a sizeable number of Muslims that just want to live peaceably. To deny this is a lie. To say that vast numbers aren't manipulated by extremists is a lie. There are significant numbers of Muslims that fall down on both sides of the issue.

In regards to "Sharia courts" those are courts designed to address religious violations, the civil laws of Britain still are in play. For example, the UPCI has it's own procedings based on our Christian interpretation of the Scripture. I see no issue with it. So what. If they want to prosecute a woman for not wearing a viel and expell her from the community of faith, that's their issue.

Now, as for the United States. The two greatest threats to liberty are the Republican and Democratic parties. A vote for either is a betrayal of American ideals, some would say even on the level of treason.

[BrotherEastman]

I said NOTHING about voting for Obama. (Frankly, a case can be made that voting for either candidate of the two leading parties is treason against American ideals.)

I asked, are we supposed to hate Muslims? ANSWER THE QUESTION.
Na na na boo boo, what if I don't want to?

[Rico]

whatever, lol, dont come to me when they come for you libs, i will be busy taking care of my family, dt

As if I won't be. :rolleyes:

[DividedThigh]

i am sure you will look out for yours rico, dt

[Aquila]

The question I have is...when will we wake up and determine not to allow the Republicans and the Democrats destroy us?

[Ferd]

Masses are easily manipulated by extremists. The extremists teach the masses that their way is the way of "God" and then then masses feel it necessary to support measures implimented and supported by the extremist regimes. It's like the Christian Right in America. Same deal. If we express serious disatisfaction with the Christian Right's political positions we are labeled "non-Christians", "pro-aborts", "murderers", "communists", etc. Sadly, rank and file believers are craving acceptance in a world that's hostile to their faith. When the Christian Right issues these rejections, psychologically, rank and file believers begin adopting and agreeing with even the most extreme of right wing policies crafted by the Christian Right.

There are a sizeable number of Muslims that just want to live peaceably. To deny this is a lie. To say that vast numbers aren't manipulated by extremists is a lie. There are significant numbers of Muslims that fall down on both sides of the issue.

In regards to "Sharia courts" those are courts designed to address religious violations, the civil laws of Britain still are in play. For example, the UPCI has it's own procedings based on our Christian interpretation of the Scripture. I see no issue with it. So what. If they want to prosecute a woman for not wearing a viel and expell her from the community of faith, that's their issue.

Now, as for the United States. The two greatest threats to liberty are the Republican and Democratic parties. A vote for either is a betrayal of American ideals, some would say even on the level of treason.

Aquila is it really necessay to point out some "sizable minority"

Dude, EVERY muslim country that has had the chance to elect its lawmakers has CHOSEN a government that enacts Sharia law! EVERY. not one or two! EVERY.

Are there some really nice muslims who dont think that is the way to go? yes. problably many of those in America fit the bill.

I DONT CARE. BECAUSE MOST DONT THINK THAT WAY

and how do you tell them apart? you cant.

that doesnt mean i hate muslims. but you wont fine me voting for one...ever.

[Ferd]

Masses are easily manipulated by extremists. The extremists teach the masses that their way is the way of "God" and then then masses feel it necessary to support measures implimented and supported by the extremist regimes. It's like the Christian Right in America. Same deal. If we express serious disatisfaction with the Christian Right's political positions we are labeled "non-Christians", "pro-aborts", "murderers", "communists", etc. Sadly, rank and file believers are craving acceptance in a world that's hostile to their faith. When the Christian Right issues these rejections, psychologically, rank and file believers begin adopting and agreeing with even the most extreme of right wing policies crafted by the Christian Right.

There are a sizeable number of Muslims that just want to live peaceably. To deny this is a lie. To say that vast numbers aren't manipulated by extremists is a lie. There are significant numbers of Muslims that fall down on both sides of the issue.

In regards to "Sharia courts" those are courts designed to address religious violations, the civil laws of Britain still are in play. For example, the UPCI has it's own procedings based on our Christian interpretation of the Scripture. I see no issue with it. So what. If they want to prosecute a woman for not wearing a viel and expell her from the community of faith, that's their issue.

Now, as for the United States. The two greatest threats to liberty are the Republican and Democratic parties. A vote for either is a betrayal of American ideals, some would say even on the level of treason.


the emboldended is a balled faced lie and you need to revise it.

when you decide to be pro-choice, you are called abortionists because you support abortion. when you want to vote for socialists you are called socialists.

NOT by the christian right, but by anyone who can understand that supporting abortion means supporting abortion and supporting socialism means supporting socialism.

please retract the statement.

[Ferd]

Masses are easily manipulated by extremists. The extremists teach the masses that their way is the way of "God" and then then masses feel it necessary to support measures implimented and supported by the extremist regimes. It's like the Christian Right in America. Same deal. If we express serious disatisfaction with the Christian Right's political positions we are labeled "non-Christians", "pro-aborts", "murderers", "communists", etc. Sadly, rank and file believers are craving acceptance in a world that's hostile to their faith. When the Christian Right issues these rejections, psychologically, rank and file believers begin adopting and agreeing with even the most extreme of right wing policies crafted by the Christian Right.

There are a sizeable number of Muslims that just want to live peaceably. To deny this is a lie. To say that vast numbers aren't manipulated by extremists is a lie. There are significant numbers of Muslims that fall down on both sides of the issue.

In regards to "Sharia courts" those are courts designed to address religious violations, the civil laws of Britain still are in play. For example, the UPCI has it's own procedings based on our Christian interpretation of the Scripture. I see no issue with it. So what. If they want to prosecute a woman for not wearing a viel and expell her from the community of faith, that's their issue.

Now, as for the United States. The two greatest threats to liberty are the Republican and Democratic parties. A vote for either is a betrayal of American ideals, some would say even on the level of treason.

this post has more insanity in it to even address. I dont have the energy to continue. but there aint nothing here I can agree with. wacky.

[OnTheFritz]

the emboldended is a balled faced lie and you need to revise it.
when you decide to be pro-choice, you are called abortionists because you support abortion. when you want to vote for socialists you are called socialists.

NOT by the christian right, but by anyone who can understand that supporting abortion means supporting abortion and supporting socialism means supporting socialism.

please retract the statement.

What about his statement do you take issue with? Whether you think it's justified or not, it is an accurate claim. These words are frequently used to describe those who doesn't tow the Christian-Republican party line. I've heard these words used on AFF. Why should he retract? It's true.

[Rico]

the emboldended is a balled faced lie and you need to revise it.

when you decide to be pro-choice, you are called abortionists because you support abortion. when you want to vote for socialists you are called socialists.

NOT by the christian right, but by anyone who can understand that supporting abortion means supporting abortion and supporting socialism means supporting socialism.

please retract the statement.



Talk about a bold faced lie!

[Ferd]

What about his statement do you take issue with? Whether you think it's justified or not, it is an accurate claim. These words are frequently used to describe those who doesn't tow the Christian-Republican party line. I've heard these words used on AFF. Why should he retract? It's true.

the assertion that those that don't toe the line are called these things because they don't toe the line. it is a lie. as I explained. a person may very well get called out for supporting a socialist. (I have done that) but the implication is that it is done with out merit and it done as a tool of the "Christian right"


that is a flat out lie Derrick. As one who has called Aquila out MANY times, I am NOT willing to be mischaracterized.

[Ferd]

Talk about a bold faced lie!

we have covered this. I stand by the statement.


YOU have said HERE that you are pro choice. ergo....

[Rico]

we have covered this. I stand by the statement.


YOU have said HERE that you are pro choice. ergo....


...you continue spreading the lie that I am pro-abortion.

[Aquila]

the emboldended is a balled faced lie and you need to revise it.

when you decide to be pro-choice, you are called abortionists because you support abortion. when you want to vote for socialists you are called socialists.

NOT by the christian right, but by anyone who can understand that supporting abortion means supporting abortion and supporting socialism means supporting socialism.

please retract the statement.

Ferd, I take direct and deep offense at being called an abortionist. I'm reporting your harassment as soon as I post this.

I stand by the statement and you can't bully me. I do think the Christian Right is using religion as a weapon to manipulate the easily influenced religious voter.

I think some are so afraid to leave the Republican ranks they just can't stand those who have the courage to do so.

I'm not voting Democrat or Republican in the next election. A case can be made that a vote for either party is treason against true American ideals.

Now...I'm reporting you for calling me an abortionist just because I don't agree with you and your Right Wing politics.

[Aquila]

What about his statement do you take issue with? Whether you think it's justified or not, it is an accurate claim. These words are frequently used to describe those who doesn't tow the Christian-Republican party line. I've heard these words used on AFF. Why should he retract? It's true.

If you look closely at his post to me you'll see an example of what I'm talking about in living color....here's what I said...

It's like the Christian Right in America. Same deal. If we express serious disatisfaction with the Christian Right's political positions we are labeled "non-Christians", "pro-aborts", "murderers", "communists", etc.

Here's what Ferd said....

when you decide to be pro-choice, you are called abortionists because you support abortion. when you want to vote for socialists you are called socialists.

Makes you wonder what good some people's religion would be if they didn't get by with bullying and slandering everyone who disagreed with them.

[Aquila]

...you continue spreading the lie that I am pro-abortion.

Rico, report him. It's harassment and designed to offend you.

[OnTheFritz]

the assertion that those that don't toe the line are called these things because they don't toe the line. it is a lie. as I explained. a person may very well get called out for supporting a socialist. (I have done that) but the implication is that it is done with out merit and it done as a tool of the "Christian right"


that is a flat out lie Derrick. As one who has called Aquila out MANY times, I am NOT willing to be mischaracterized.

Hmm. Seems like semantics to me.

On a side note, why would you call a pro-choice advocate pro-abortion if it wasn't in an effort to make a statement? For instance - you know that Rico is not pro-abortion. You know it for a fact. Yet, you use the same old inflammatory language to make your point. It's not stating facts, it's using an emotionally charged comment to try to get a reaction. You may completely disagree with Rico's rationale for being pro-choice, but - let's face it - you calling him pro-abortion is not simply stating a fact. It's making a judgement, and it's an attempt to discredit him as a Christian. It's the same kind of thing as using Osama, Osamanation or Obsama, or oSCAMa, or whatever idiotic name people continue to come up with. It's just so obnoxious. Why can't a conversation occur without the 12-year-old wordplay?

[Aquila]

Hmm. Seems like semantics to me.

On a side note, why would you call a pro-choice advocate pro-abortion if it wasn't in an effort to make a statement? For instance - you know that Rico is not pro-abortion. You know it for a fact. Yet, you use the same old inflammatory language to make your point. It's not stating facts, it's using an emotionally charged comment to try to get a reaction. You may completely disagree with Rico's rationale for being pro-choice, but - let's face it - you calling him pro-abortion is not simply stating a fact. It's making a judgement, and it's an attempt to discredit him as a Christian. It's the same kind of thing as using Osama, Osamanation or Obsama, or oSCAMa, or whatever idiotic name people continue to come up with. It's just so obnoxious. Why can't a conversation occur without the 12-year-old wordplay?

It's the exact tactic I warned about in post #149 that the Right Wing uses to attack anyone who disagrees with them. Ferd gives us an excellent example of the religious manipulation and harassment that's afoot in so called "conservative" Right Wing extremist circles.

[Baron1710]

If you look closely at his post to me you'll see an example of what I'm talking about in living color....here's what I said...



Here's what Ferd said....



Makes you wonder what good some people's religion would be if they didn't get by with bullying and slandering everyone who disagreed with them.

First of all slander is spoken libel is written, but in any case what he said would first have to be untrue, seeing that we can't get past that, summary judgment in favor of the defendant (that would be Ferd).

Case dismissed.

[Aquila]

Let's apply Ferd's logic in a different way....

China FORCES abortion. To support free trade with China is to support forced abortion as policy. Jesus said that where a man's treasure is his heart will be also. If Ferd enjoys the savings he gets through the free trade with China, in spite of their forced abortion policy, according to Ferd's logic, he himself must be in support of forced abortion policies.

Obviously, Ferd's being unfair to Rico and others who disagree politically. I think it's more likely that Ferd sees the weaknesses and issues with the Republican Party....but he's too afraid to brake ranks with them. Rico's courage to do so intimidates him and so Ferd lashes out and attacks him personally. Ferd should calm down and stop attacking BROTHERS.

[Aquila]

First of all slander is spoken libel is written, but in any case what he said would first have to be untrue, seeing that we can't get past that, summary judgment in favor of the defendant (that would be Ferd).

Case dismissed.

I'm not an abortionist, and neither is Rico. And I rest knowing that you and Ferd will answer to God for every idle word spoken against your brothers. You have NO idea the whys of our politics. Frankly, you don't even know who we're seriously considering voting for if we vote at all.

[Aquila]

Ferd's attacks are unfair to both myself and Rico.

[Baron1710]

:bigbaby
Ferd's attacks are unfair to both myself and Rico.:bigbaby

[Aquila]

First of all slander is spoken libel is written, but in any case what he said would first have to be untrue, seeing that we can't get past that, summary judgment in favor of the defendant (that would be Ferd).

Case dismissed.

I cannot prove it's untrue. I could offer a story about a dark day in me and my wife's life where we, or another couple, had to decide as to abort to possibly save a woman's life. Do you think discussing that kind of pain and agony of soul is justified to defend from a written attack by a religious extremist? Based on cases such as these I fully believe that GOVERNMENT is unqualified to make these most difficult decisions. Calling someone a baby killer or abortionist because they don't believe GOVERNMENT is capable of properly delivering justice on the issue is terribly out of order.

[Aquila]

:bigbaby
:bigbaby

That's also insulting.

[Ferd]

Ferd, I take direct and deep offense at being called an abortionist. I'm reporting your harassment as soon as I post this.

I stand by the statement and you can't bully me. I do think the Christian Right is using religion as a weapon to manipulate the easily influenced religious voter.

I think some are so afraid to leave the Republican ranks they just can't stand those who have the courage to do so.

I'm not voting Democrat or Republican in the next election. A case can be made that a vote for either party is treason against true American ideals.

Now...I'm reporting you for calling me an abortionist just because I don't agree with you and your Right Wing politics.

typical. its what you do...

but re-read the post skippie. I didnt call you an abortionist. i said... and I quote...


when you decide to be pro-choice, you are called abortionists because you support abortion. when you want to vote for socialists you are called socialists.


pretty clear to those not visually impared.

[OnTheFritz]

It's the exact tactic I warned about in post #149 that the Right Wing uses to attack anyone who disagrees with them. Ferd gives us an excellent example of the religious manipulation and harassment that's afoot in so called "conservative" Right Wing extremist circles.

I don't necessarily thinks it's BECAUSE you disagree with them - though that may happen at times.

I just think there is such a fear on the far right of being called "middle-of-the-road" or a "fence sitter" that they can't even entertain another point of view without losing face amongst their peers. Can't even entertain it enough to be able to conduct an adult conversation about it. The idea of acknowledging a point or two from the other side's argument is seen as weakness. It's ridiculous. Thus we have our "Oscama" and "pro-abortion" name calling.

[Baron1710]

I cannot prove it's untrue. I could offer a story about a dark day in me and my wife's life where we, or another couple, had to decide as to abort to possibly save a woman's life. Do you think discussing that kind of pain and agony of soul is justified to defend from a written attack by a religious extremist? Based on cases such as these I fully believe that GOVERNMENT is unqualified to make these most difficult decisions. Being called a baby killer or abortionist is terribly out of order.

You make the claim you have the burden of proof. That is just.

[Baron1710]

That's also insulting.

Really how about this then. :tease :bigbaby

[Ferd]

Hmm. Seems like semantics to me.

On a side note, why would you call a pro-choice advocate pro-abortion if it wasn't in an effort to make a statement? For instance - you know that Rico is not pro-abortion. You know it for a fact. Yet, you use the same old inflammatory language to make your point. It's not stating facts, it's using an emotionally charged comment to try to get a reaction. You may completely disagree with Rico's rationale for being pro-choice, but - let's face it - you calling him pro-abortion is not simply stating a fact. It's making a judgement, and it's an attempt to discredit him as a Christian. It's the same kind of thing as using Osama, Osamanation or Obsama, or oSCAMa, or whatever idiotic name people continue to come up with. It's just so obnoxious. Why can't a conversation occur without the 12-year-old wordplay?
Derrick, I dont know if you saw this discussion but we went this round several weeks ago.

Rico got all mad. the Admin chimed in and clearly indicated that the "judgement" I made was a valid one.

bottom line, if you are against abortion but you are pro-choice and you vote pro-choice you are supporting abortion. the end here is that your actions regardless of what you claim you believe cause the perpetuation of abortion.

period.

Rico can be mad all day long. Aquilla can be offended to the end of time. if they cant take the heat, they need to exit the kitchen.

[Ferd]

I don't necessarily thinks it's BECAUSE you disagree with them - though that may happen at times.

I just think there is such a fear on the far right of being called "middle-of-the-road" or a "fence sitter" that they can't even entertain another point of view without losing face amongst their peers. Can't even entertain it enough to be able to conduct an adult conversation about it. The idea of acknowledging a point or two from the other side's argument is seen as weakness. It's ridiculous. Thus we have our "Oscama" and "pro-abortion" name calling.

bro, this notion of "far right" is just plain silly.

I am dead in the center of the concervitive movement. this is a debate about politics and Aquilla and Rico advoctate a postion that allows for women to get abortions on demand.

I am sorry. it isnt bulling to challenge the following statement
"I hate abortion but if you want one thats fine with me"

that is the stated position we are talking about. I aint buying the snake oil.

[OnTheFritz]

Derrick, I dont know if you saw this discussion but we went this round several weeks ago.

Rico got all mad. the Admin chimed in and clearly indicated that the "judgement" I made was a valid one.

bottom line, if you are against abortion but you are pro-choice and you vote pro-choice you are supporting abortion. the end here is that your actions regardless of what you claim you believe cause the perpetuation of abortion.

period.

Rico can be mad all day long. Aquilla can be offended to the end of time. if they cant take the heat, they need to exit the kitchen.

So, because admin on this board agrees with you, it has now become fact somehow;) You can do nothing more that state your opinion that pro-choice means pro-abortion. It is no more a fact now than it was before the decree was handed down.

Period.

I get a headache on these threads....

[OneAccord]

Anybody on this thread? Well, don't you read another word. Git yourself over to the NEW THREAD thread and post something nice about the poster who posted before you. No milk and cookies til ya do. Now....GIT!

[OneAccord]

I see you two on this thread. Close it...and go say something nice on NEW THREAD. Won't take a minute. You kids are gonna drive me up the wall!

[Ferd]

So, because admin on this board agrees with you, it has now become fact somehow;) You can do nothing more that state your opinion that pro-choice means pro-abortion. It is no more a fact now than it was before the decree was handed down.

Period.

I get a headache on these threads....

oh, no Admin didnt make it fact.


my well reasoned logic makes it acceptable.


big difference.

[Ferd]

I see you two on this thread. Close it...and go say something nice on NEW THREAD. Won't take a minute. You kids are gonna drive me up the wall!

LOL! hey, you didnt post on my I LIKE thread now did you?

[Aquila]

bro, this notion of "far right" is just plain silly.

I am dead in the center of the concervitive movement. this is a debate about politics and Aquilla and Rico advoctate a postion that allows for women to get abortions on demand.

I am sorry. it isnt bulling to challenge the following statement
"I hate abortion but if you want one thats fine with me"

that is the stated position we are talking about. I aint buying the snake oil.

Ferd, no body ever said it's fine with them. We are saying that the GOVERNMENT isn't capable of adequately addressing the issue. And since there are occasions wherein a woman's health or life could be at stake...GOVERNMENT is best left out of the equation. Abortion can be addressed through private means and organizations.

Now...which nation has the LOWEST abortion rate? Is it a liberalized Prochoice country or a deeply conservative Prolife country?

[OneAccord]

LOL! hey, you didnt post on my I LIKE thread now did you?

Don't know if I did or not...Don't wanna hear it. GIT!

[Ferd]

Ferd, no body ever said it's fine with them. We are saying that the GOVERNMENT isn't capable of adequately addressing the issue. And since there are occasions wherein a woman's health or life could be at stake...GOVERNMENT is best left out of the equation.

Now...which nation has the LOWEST abortion rate? Is it a liberalized Prochoice country or a deeply conservative Prolife country?


Chris, do what you always do. report me! sniff sniff.

its symantic buddy. what ever your reasoning, you SUPPORT abortion on demand. period. thats what you support by your own admission.

i dont care what mechinations you have to go thru to get there, thats what you support.

so dont get mad at me for saying so! YOU already did!

[Ferd]

Don't know if I did or not...Don't wanna hear it. GIT!

fine then! LOL! I love 1A!

[Aquila]

You make the claim you have the burden of proof. That is just.

I have to prove I'm not an abortionist because Ferd accused me of being one? Get real.

[Aquila]

Chris, do what you always do. report me! sniff sniff.

its symantic buddy. what ever your reasoning, you SUPPORT abortion on demand. period. thats what you support by your own admission.

i dont care what mechinations you have to go thru to get there, thats what you support.

so dont get mad at me for saying so! YOU already did!

If it's my wife on the table and her life or health is at stake....that's our difficult choice bro. Not the GOVERNMENT'S.

[Baron1710]

I have to prove I'm not an abortionist because Ferd accused me of being one? Get real.

No you have to prove your not to successfully make your case for libel. Which you can’t because the facts are against you.

Case Dismissed, Again. Now get out of my courtroom before I cite you for contempt.

[OneAccord]

Aquilla? What are you doin here? Have you posted something nice on NEW THREAD? Then GIT over there and get it done!

[Ferd]

If it's my wife on the table and her life or health is at stake....that's our difficult choice bro. Not the GOVERNMENT'S.

down here in the south we call that a mechination.

[Ferd]

No you have to prove your not to successfully make your case for libel. Which you can’t because the facts are against you.

Case Dismissed, Again. Now get out of my courtroom before I cite you for contempt.

LOL! dat der is funny!

[Aquila]

down here in the south we call that a mechination.

In my family we call that...my wife. The woman I love.

[Aquila]

Ferd, do you believe they should ban pornography like Playboy?

[Baron1710]

If it's my wife on the table and her life or health is at stake....that's our difficult choice bro. Not the GOVERNMENT'S.

It really is amazing that the government is able to make every other health care decision for you and that's fine. But when they say you can't kill your baby they become incompetent.

[Ferd]

Ferd, do you believe they should ban pornography like Playboy?

mechination.

[Ferd]

In my family we call that...my wife. The woman I love.

where I am from we call that using the woman you love to score political points in favor of killing babies.

[Baron1710]

In my family we call that...my wife. The woman I love.

Are you aware that the woman that was used to file the litigation in Roe v. Wade stood in front of 70,000 people last Saturday here in DC and asked to be forgiven, and said she was used by those who want to kill the unborn?

That ought to make you pause and think for a minute.

[OneAccord]

If you haven't yet, go to NEW THREAD and post something nice to or about the poster before you! This is todays assignmment!

[Aquila]

Derrick, I dont know if you saw this discussion but we went this round several weeks ago.

Rico got all mad. the Admin chimed in and clearly indicated that the "judgement" I made was a valid one.

bottom line, if you are against abortion but you are pro-choice and you vote pro-choice you are supporting abortion. the end here is that your actions regardless of what you claim you believe cause the perpetuation of abortion.

period.

Rico can be mad all day long. Aquilla can be offended to the end of time. if they cant take the heat, they need to exit the kitchen.

Ferd, perhaps you need to understand something. It's one thing to say that as a prolife Christian you don't see how a Christian can be prochoice. It's another to accuse someone of being pro-abortion or an abortionist. Choice doesn't mean one condones abortion. Choice means that one believes the GOVERNMENT is unable to adequately address the issue and that GOVERNMENT involvement may make matters worse and far more complicated. Frankly, it's not rocket science. But hey...it gives some of the bullies an excuse to call names and be vipers.

If the Admin sided with you in calling people names and labeling outside of the truth, with all due respects, the Admin is terribly wrong. Ferd.....one can be right....but go about it all wrong. Ferd, you're right, abortion is a terrible sin. Abortion is something that I pray becomes very rare in the United States. But, I'm not going to call someone who believes in choice "proabortion", "abortionist", "baby killer", etc. I'm more GROWN UP than that. I also know women who have been in dire circumstances and who faced the possibility of having to make that decision. And Ferd....the GUBBERMENT has no business in the matter. I think the Admin agreed with your over all sentiment that abortion is wrong....but if the Admin sided with allowing you to call names like those listed above...bro...I don't think that's right. I also think you're using the Admin's siding with you as license to say and abuse those who don't agree with you at will. Personally, I think that makes the Admin look bad and is very disrespectful of their authority.

[Aquila]

It really is amazing that the government is able to make every other health care decision for you and that's fine. But when they say you can't kill your baby they become incompetent.

Bro....I never said the government should make every other health care decision for anyone. I said some supplemental insurance would be OK. Why'd I say that? Last year on July 7th my mother died of a heart attack. She had a heart condition that could have been treated and her life extended...if she had health insurance. But being unable to afford health insurance sentenced her to an early death. You saved about $20 in taxes that month...my mother died.

So yes, I seriously felt some supplemental insurance might be nice. But I've since realized that as long as people don't see this like we're all in this together....it's not going to happen. So now, I kinda take the libertarian track. I hope we can decentralize the system and help make it more affordable. I've yet to see a model that would adequately do so....but hey, it's a conservative pipe dream they sell every election cycle. Here's the rub....the models presented will make health insurance even harder to afford...that means....one day maybe someone you love will need it and not have it. My only hope is that then you'll feel the pain of watching a person die an untimely death of a treatable condition merely because they were unable to afford health insurance. Only then will you have an inkling of what it's like.

[Aquila]

mechination.

Answer the question.

Do you believe they should ban pornography like Playboy?

You can answer the question or tuck tail and bolt. It's up to you.

[vrblackwell]

There must be someone who determines when life needs to be protected. That is why we have a government. Any society without laws will not make it. Everyone has a different idea of what is right and what is wrong.

The government passed a law based on the a biblical principle that one cannot take the life of another. Anyone who reads the bible knows tat life begins at conception. Even science supports this fact.

That is why when bot pro-choice and pro-life people talk to a pregnant woman they will ask her "how is our baby doing"? They do not ask "how is your body doing"?

The baby is not her body, it is only living in her womb. Therefore is is a life that should be protected by the government.

This should be easy for anyone to understand. Especially someone who believes in the Word of God.

[Ferd]

Answer the question.

Do you believe they should ban pornography like Playboy?

You can answer the question or tuck tail and bolt. It's up to you.

I tell you what I do believe, I believe you will go to the ends of the earth to justify your position.

which regardless of what you think of it, ends in the expansion of abortion. period.

next question.


PS, I did not report you for questioning the actions of admin and saying Im not a man.... that would be a crybaby trick. I dont do crybaby.

[Baron1710]

Answer the question.

Do you believe they should ban pornography like Playboy?

You can answer the question or tuck tail and bolt. It's up to you.

The better question is would I support a candidate who wanted to use tax dollars to print and distribute and encourage the reading of this kind of trash.

[Ferd]

The better question is would I support a candidate who wanted to use tax dollars to print and distribute and encourage the reading of this kind of trash.

my question is why would anyone want to roll with the moral equivalant argument?

Chris is just fishing to find some place where he can say i am just as bad as he is so he is OK.

that is a sad small place to live if you ask me.

[DividedThigh]

for the record i dont believe there any such thing as pro choice, that was concocted 20 yrs ago to better package the pro abort positions, there are only two choice pro life and pro abort, choose you this day which one, i am pro life all the way, dt

[Jermyn Davidson]

I am a Pro-Choice Christian who is against abortion!

[Carpenter]

Ferd, perhaps you need to understand something. It's one thing to say that as a prolife Christian you don't see how a Christian can be prochoice. It's another to accuse someone of being pro-abortion or an abortionist. Choice doesn't mean one condones abortion. Choice means that one believes the GOVERNMENT is unable to adequately address the issue and that GOVERNMENT involvement may make matters worse and far more complicated. Frankly, it's not rocket science. But hey...it gives some of the bullies an excuse to call names and be vipers.

United States. But, I'm not going to call someone who believes in choice "proabortion", "abortionist", "baby killer", etc. I'm more GROWN UP than that. I also know women who have been in dire circumstances and who faced the possibility of having to make that decision. And Ferd....the GUBBERMENT has no business in the matter. I think the Admin agreed with your over all sentiment that abortion is wrong....but if the Admin sided with allowing you to call names like those listed above...bro...I don't think that's right. I also think you're using the Admin's siding with you as license to say and abuse those who don't agree with you at will. Personally, I think that makes the Admin look bad and is very disrespectful of their authority.


Well, it looks like someone got tangled up in the liberal and left wing press' sementical lies.

Pro choice NOT being pro abortion? You are so mistaken and deluded.

Giving an individual ONE choice is not a choice at all. You go ahead and tell someone who is prochoice that a decision has been made NOT to choose an abortion and you will have a riot on your hand. ProChoice means a greater propensity to sanction abortion as non-murder because a woman's choice is HER choice giving no voice to the innocent.

I challenge you to go to an abortion clinic and ask them how many young vulnerable and stupid girls they talk OUT of an abortion or how they represent a choice other than ending their pregancy.

You remind me of that guy in the 80s...The Unknown comic, he lived his public life with a paper bag over his head.

Prochoice is synonymous with PROAbortion, don't kid yourself.

[OP_Carl]

What do you think the tithe was used for, Ferd? Are you that dense? It wasn't to make the church rich. It was for the poor and needy. It was a WELFARE program instituted by GOD HIMSELF! Go argue with Him and tell Him His ideas are elephant dung. There's a whole lot more God ordered for the poor people than just a tithing program too. How about the welfare system for the widows in the church? That's a NT principle. Is that good enough for you? Good grief! You people are something else!

Rico,

I am in favor of helping the widows, ophans, and the needy. I do this on my own and through my church. I am relying upon my own judgment, and upon the judgment of the spirit-filled leaders of my church, in determining who qualifies as the virtuous poor.

Compare that to the institutionalized bureaucracy for which you have implicitly expressed your support: It is run by people whose chief motivation is to make sure that their numbers warrant more cash next year. They don't care if those they support are making an effort or looking for a sucker. There is no measure or requirement of virtue anywhere in the system, from the top to the bottom. Corruption is rampant, and the constancy of such programs has bred a culture of dependency that has re-enslaved, psychologically, generations of people.

If I tried to not support this system, men with guns would come and chat with me about it. Support is compulsory, coercive if necessary, not from the heart of a cheerful giver.

There is no comparison, for me, between OT and NT systems of aiding the unfortunate and state-run social welfare systems.

[MissBrattified]

Well, it looks like someone got tangled up in the liberal and left wing press' sementical lies.

Pro choice NOT being pro abortion? You are so mistaken and deluded.

Giving an individual ONE choice is not a choice at all. You go ahead and tell someone who is prochoice that a decision has been made NOT to choose an abortion and you will have a riot on your hand. ProChoice means a greater propensity to sanction abortion as non-murder because a woman's choice is HER choice giving no voice to the innocent.

I challenge you to go to an abortion clinic and ask them how many young vulnerable and stupid girls they talk OUT of an abortion or how they represent a choice other than ending their pregancy.

You remind me of that guy in the 80s...The Unknown comic, he lived his public life with a paper bag over his head.

Prochoice is synonymous with PROAbortion, don't kid yourself.

Rico,

I am in favor of helping the widows, ophans, and the needy. I do this on my own and through my church. I am relying upon my own judgment, and upon the judgment of the spirit-filled leaders of my church, in determining who qualifies as the virtuous poor.

Compare that to the institutionalized bureaucracy for which you have implicitly expressed your support: It is run by people whose chief motivation is to make sure that their numbers warrant more cash next year. They don't care if those they support are making an effort or looking for a sucker. There is no measure or requirement of virtue anywhere in the system, from the top to the bottom. Corruption is rampant, and the constancy of such programs has bred a culture of dependency that has re-enslaved, psychologically, generations of people.

If I tried to not support this system, men with guns would come and chat with me about it. Support is compulsory, coercive if necessary, not from the heart of a cheerful giver.

There is no comparison, for me, between OT and NT systems of aiding the unfortunate and state-run social welfare systems.

Excellent posts. Such smart boys. :coffee2

[OP_Carl]

...don't see how a Christian can be prochoice. ... Choice doesn't mean one condones abortion. Choice means that one believes the GOVERNMENT is unable to adequately address the issue and that GOVERNMENT involvement may make matters worse and far more complicated. Do you believe that bible-based morality evolves? That it has a fluid definition? The only valid arena of this issue in which one may properly use the word 'choice' is in a person's choice to have sex. Adultery used to be illegal in many states, and until recently, was grounds for dismissal from the military. The laws of our nation were grounded in biblical morality. Now adultery and divorce is the rule, not the exception. What changed? The biblical stance on the issues? The definition of the derived morality? Or the hearts of the American people, in that they no longer yearn to keep their hearts right with a holy and just God?

Abortion is something that I pray becomes very rare in the United States. Pray one way, vote the other, "hope" everything balances out . . . :tease j/k :winkgrin

I also know women who have been in dire circumstances and who faced the possibility of having to make that decision. There have also been women in dire circumstances who CHOSE to give up their baby for adoption, or left their baby on the doorstep of the orphanage. But if these women in dire circumstances "CHOOSE" to abandon, neglect, or kill their newborn baby after it's been out in the world for a bit, they go to prison. Why, do you reckon, is that?

Also, we can't help but notice that a provision that was put into place for those rare, risky pregancies - you know, that one in 20,000 where the life/health of the mother is TRULY at risk - or those women in dire circumstances, has ended up a drive-thru convenient alternative to contraception. And lastly, "dire circumstances?" Surely you can see that the subjective variation in that term is large enough to drive a semi through it. What's dire here is when you might not be able to afford your cable bill. What's dire in Haiti or Mali or Bangladesh are things like malaria and starvation.

Bottom line: We're letting people kill their kids for the sake of their personal convenience, and we're calling it some form of "empowerment" for women.

If a person isn't prepared to make sacrifice for their family, they aren't prepared to get married, much less have sex.

[Ferd]

I do very much appreciate Carp and OP Carl handling our good friends here!

Excelent thoughts gentlemen!