How many times did you ask God for the Holy Ghost?

[jfrog]

How many times did you ask God for the Holy Ghost?

[mfblume]

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Well, one thing is for sure, Jesus said to ask Him.

I asked many many times, but I was committing sins I would not admit were sins, so I did not get it. When the sins were cleared up, I got it! So, there's more to it than asking Him. Imagine Anton LaVey just asking Jesus for the Holy Ghost. Think he would get it in the state he lived in just because he asked?

[Mirth1981]

There's no option for zero...

When I got the Holy Ghost, I didn't even know what it was. I just felt conviction and went to the altar crying and praying. Since I didn't know what the Holy Ghost was at the time because my family had just started going to the UPC church, I didn't know to ask for it.

[jfrog]

There's no option for zero...

When I got the Holy Ghost, I didn't even know what it was. I just felt conviction and went to the altar crying and praying. Since I didn't know what the Holy Ghost was at the time because my family had just started going to the UPC church, I didn't know to ask for it.

:thumbsup I didn't expect any zeroes.

[notofworks]

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Well, one thing is for sure, Jesus said to ask Him.

I asked many many times, but I was committing sins I would not admit were sins, so I did not get it. When the sins were cleared up, I got it! So, there's more to it than asking Him. Imagine Anton LaVey just asking Jesus for the Holy Ghost. Think he would get it in the state he lived in just because he asked?


Uh oh, here we go again.

[Hoovie]

Daily.

I want, desire, and ask for the Holy Spirit to be in me and influence me every day.

Next question.

[Jermyn Davidson]

When I was groing up, we used to have "Tarry Services" on Sunday night before church where those who had not been filled with the Holy Spirit would come to the altar and cry out to the Lord in worship and praise-- waiting for the Holy Spirit to be poured out on us.

The seasoned saints would be singing and praying over us, encouraging us to keep calling on Him.


Our tarry services were never dead, and neither were our Sunday nights.

[jfrog]

Daily.

I want, desire, and ask for the Holy Spirit to be in me and influence me every day.

Next question.

You might want to talk to Blume. He might can help you figure out what your doing wrong as to why you don't have it yet...

[mfblume]

You might want to talk to Blume. He might can help you figure out what your doing wrong as to why you don't have it yet...

I like how people twist words. lol

You well remember that I did not say that unrepentant sin was the case for everyone. IN fact, on another thread earlier today I stipulated that, which seems to the be the thread that inspired you to start this one.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=918819&postcount=280

[Hoovie]

You might want to talk to Blume. He might can help you figure out what your doing wrong as to why you don't have it yet...

I think Blume would know better than anyone of us when the Holy Spirit came into his heart.

Also, I think when we speak of receiving the Holy Ghost in Pentecostal circles there is an implication of speaking in tongues for the first time... that does not take into account the work of the Spirit at conversion (prior to speaking in tongues) nor the Spirit's critical role in our lives each and every day.

[mfblume]

I think Blume would know better than anyone of us when the Holy Spirit came into his heart.

Also, I think when we speak of receiving the Holy Ghost in Pentecostal circles there is an implication of speaking in tongues for the first time... that does not take into account the work of the Spirit at conversion (prior to speaking in tongues) nor the Spirit's critical role in our lives each and every day.

Bravo :thumbsup

[Jermyn Davidson]

I think Blume would know better than anyone of us when the Holy Spirit came into his heart.

Also, I think when we speak of receiving the Holy Ghost in Pentecostal circles there is an implication of speaking in tongues for the first time... that does not take into account the work of the Spirit at conversion (prior to speaking in tongues) nor the Spirit's critical role in our lives each and every day.

Do you imply that folks are filled with the Holy Spirit before speaking in tongues?

Or maybe not filled, just only half full?

[mfblume]

Do you imply that folks are filled with the Holy Spirit before speaking in tongues?

Or maybe not filled, just only half full?

I do not think so. I think he simply meant the SPIRIT WORKS, before infilling.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I do not think so. I think he simply meant the SPIRIT WORKS, before infilling.

:)

Thank you Sir.

[Hoovie]

Do you imply that folks are filled with the Holy Spirit before speaking in tongues?

Or maybe not filled, just only half full?

Rather than focusing on filled/full, I just think we can acknowledge the Holy Spirit is THE operative force in bringing people to Christ and unto repentance, and in our daily overcoming life in Christ.

[jfrog]

Rather than focusing on filled/full, I just think we can acknowledge the Holy Spirit is THE operative force in bringing people to Christ and unto repentance, and in our daily overcoming life in Christ.

I think its great that you are acknowledging that!

[Sam]

I was saved (born again) on a Monday night. It was March 28, 1955. I was 17 years old. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Several months later I learned that there was an empowering of the Spirit or a baptism in the Spirit available for me.

I often asked God while praying alone at home, in the woods, on a rooftop, to give me that baptism, to fill me.

Still later (I think it was August 1955) I went to an Apostolic church and prayed for a couple of hours one Sunday night begging and pleading for God to baptize me in His Spirit. The following Sunday night I returned and again pleaded with God for the experience.

More praying at home, then in October 1955 I was baptized in Jesus' name at a nearby UPC church. I was praying for God to fill/baptize me when I was interrupted and asked if I wanted to be baptized. I agreed so that's how I got baptized in Jesus' name. I had been reading and studying about baptism in Jesus name so I was familiar with it.

A month or two (can't remember how long but it was before Christmas 1955) later I started attending a UPC regularly. I would go to the altar on Sunday nights and "tarry" or "seek the Holy Ghost" as it was called back then. I was told to praise and worship God for the experience in hope and expectation so my prayer time changed from pleading and begging to worshiping and praising and thanking God.

After the evening service on May 20, 1956 (just happened to be Pentecost Sunday) while I was praising God I realized something was happening. I would speak out in English and midway in the words it did not sound like English as it came out but instead sounded like some other language. As I continued, the words changed from partial English to completely different sounding words. I was not repeating a single word faster and faster in English so it was not just like saying a tongue twister and getting my tongue tangled up. Neither was I repeating "nonsense syllables" (as some have people at the altar do) in order to "prime the pump" or "loosen my tongue." It just came out in what to me and to those around me was a different sounding language.

So, that's why I said that I asked God "many times" for the Baptism. There was no "sin" or "disobedience" in my life that I know of that would hinder God from giving me the experience prior to when it happened.

[mizpeh]

I can't remember. I wasn't in a church and I didn't know how to pray. But the girl who witnessed to me spoke with tongues and I wanted what she had because it was REAL!


I think maybe I prayed a couple of times, once on my knees. I received the Spirit unexpectedly while praying for something else in my apartment.

[Dedicated Mind]

I sought God for 5 months before speaking in tongues.

[noeticknight]

As per my vote, I live in a state of continual petitioning. :praying

[nahkoe]

I didn't get the whole request out before I felt something change, something shift, an overwhelming, incredible difference within myself. But then I clammed up and wouldn't speak anything, at all, for a few hours. :D

And now, yes, I ask repeatedly to be filled, and filled again, and filled more, because I need it.

[Sinatra]

I received the infilling of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues, at the age of ten. We had a visiting evangelist, who at the close of service, asked for all who wanted to receive the Holy Ghost to come to the altar. Silly me didn't realize I was suppose to tarry and beg for the Holy Ghost. I was just a little girl who believed the Evangelist when she said it was a gift and I could have it.

[Jack Shephard]

I asked once when I repented and He filled me. Tongues came later on.

[pelathais]

I was taught to beg for the Holy Ghost as a kid. That never actually worked for me. When I stopped begging and got away from all of the racket, I was in bed praying quietly and earnestly when what seemed like a very bright light surrounded me.

The "light" then began to close over my body - the last part "in darkness" seemed to be focused upon a specific part of my brain. When the "light" engulfed that last part of my brain I was "speaking in other tongues."

I have no rational materialistic explanation for the experience. It certainly wasn't something that I was taught to expect. It was something entirely "Other" from my own human experiences and expectations. Later in life I heard of several other similar accounts.

[Jack Shephard]

I have a family friend that lives back in the southeastern US. He has been seeking the HG, by evidence of speaking in tongues for 30 plus years. I believe that I have NEVER seen a more willing heart than he has. Only the Lord knows whether he actually has received the HG, but I believe he has, but has not spoken in tongues yet. I say this because this man walks in meekness and wisdom that I haven't even seen in people that hardcore tongue talkers. If the initial evidence of the HG is tongues and since he hasn't spoken in tongues some might say that since no tongues then no HG. To me I would want to ask God what's up with that? Someone SO willing for 30 years and no tongues, so no HG?? To me that is a tangile arguement as to why the HG is received without tongues being the initial evidence. Just saying.....

[notofworks]

How many times did you ask God for the Holy Ghost?

The entire ideal system of "Seeking for the Holy Ghost", which never once took place in the bible, is a major sore subject for me.

It is this concept that makes me run from pentecostalism and makes me thankful for God's grace that allows me to be filled with the Holy Spirit, when I simply believe.

[Sherri]

Seven year tarrier here!! (Or "long haired tarrier" as some like to say). LOL
I didn't know it was easy.

[Hoovie]

Rather than focusing on filled/full, I just think we can acknowledge the Holy Spirit is THE operative force in bringing people to Christ and unto repentance, and in our daily overcoming life in Christ.

I think its great that you are acknowledging that!

We all likely know them - those Christians who it's very evident have the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives - yet their experience has not been "Pentecostal" and they do not speak in tongues. I refrain from saying one does not have the Spirit unless they are tongue speakers.

The Holy Spirit changed my heart and life several months before I spoke in tongues for the first time at Camp Meeting.

Nevertheless it did not diminish the experience when I did receive it.

The experience of speaking in tongues happened to me on July 10th 25 years ago.

It was at the old open Campground in Westphalia, Mo.. T. F. Tenney was the Evangelist. After the sermon he invited those who wished to receive the Spirit baptism to come up front and receive the laying on of hands and prayer. As I prayed I was overwhelmed with the Spirit of God. I would describe it as a strong burning in my heart that would not be quenched, and I spoke in tongues and glorified God for quite some time.

I have experienced similar times (both prior to and post my initial tongues experience) when I did not speak in tongues at all though. Times when I knew that I was in the very real presence of God.

In conclusion, I can testify what I have experienced, yet other, genuine Christians do not have the same experience but still have a powerful testimony for Jesus.

I wholeheartedly believe the Holy Spirit is alive and well in both of our lives.

[pelathais]

The experience of "seeking" appears to be more rooted in the 19th Century "revival" movements than it is in any Biblical account. Presumably, the 120 were "seeking" in some manner as they waited for "the promise of the Father," but we don't have any descriptions nor accounts of exactly what they were doing.

All of our efforts are really attempts to recreate the "revival" atmosphere of the 19th Century since that is the only thing we can really touch bases with.

I'm not discounting that experience nor the "seeking" and "tarrying" that goes on. I do, however, think that it's important that we not try and stamp everyone and everything with this same pattern of experience because we will certainly miss out on the other things that God is doing to change lives.

Lacking any account of exactly what it means to "tarry" as per Acts 1 and Acts 2, it is wrong to exclude those who have not gone through the "brush arbor" and "camp meeting" revival experience from the Body of Christ. We must embrace eveything that God has authentically done and recognize as holy every vessel He has filled.

[mfblume]

I sought God for 5 months before speaking in tongues.

6 Months for me. Like someone else said, it turned out to be easier than I thought, which is why some do not get it.

[mizpeh]

The entire ideal system of "Seeking for the Holy Ghost", which never once took place in the bible, is a major sore subject for me.

It is this concept that makes me run from pentecostalism and makes me thankful for God's grace that allows me to be filled with the Holy Spirit, when I simply believe.The Samaritans were seeking for the Holy Ghost. They weren't filled until Peter and John came to pray with them.

[crakjak]

:thumbsupDaily.

I want, desire, and ask for the Holy Spirit to be in me and influence me every day.

Next question.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[crakjak]

Seven year tarrier here!! (Or "long haired tarrier" as some like to say). LOL
I didn't know it was easy.

Yep, it was easy, once it happened, before it was not.

[Timmy]

Yep, it was easy, once it happened, before it was not.

Kinda like riding a bike?

[mizpeh]

Kinda like riding a bike?Learning to ride a bike is harder, imo.

[Sam]

Learning to ride a bike is harder, imo.

I haven't ridden a bike in years --wonder if I still can?

[notofworks]

The Samaritans were seeking for the Holy Ghost. They weren't filled until Peter and John came to pray with them.

Really????? When did they "seek" for the Holy Ghost and not get it?

[Sam]

The Samaritans were seeking for the Holy Ghost. They weren't filled until Peter and John came to pray with them.

There is nothing in the record there in Acts chapter 8 that would indicate that the Samaritans were praying for or seeking for or tarrying for or trying to receive or trying to get the Holy Ghost Baptism at any time after their conversion and water baptism and up to the time when Peter and John made the 40 mile or 2 day journey on foot from Jerusalem to minister the experience to them.

[Sam]

Kenneth Hagin was born again on April 22, 1933 at 405 North College Street in McKinney, Texas. About a year later he was healed of a life threatening heart disorder and began to preach the Word of God as a Baptist preacher. Then he became acquainted with Full Gospel folks and heard about the Holy Ghost Baptism. After searching the Scriptures he realized that although the Holy Spirit was dwelling within him because he was a child of God, there was also a work of the Holy Spirit that God desires to perform in the life of every believer subsequent to or following the new birth experience. That subsequent experience is called being filled with the Holy Spirit or being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

He decided he wanted the Holy Ghost Baptism so he walked over to the parsonage of the Full Gospel Church and knocked on the door. The pastor came to the door and Bro. Hagin told him, “I’ve come to receive the Holy Ghost.”

The pastor told him, “Son, you need to wait.” The church was having a revival service that night, and it was then already 6:00 in the evening, so the pastor wanted him to wait and seek for the baptism in the Spirit in the service.

Bro. Hagin knew he would have to wait till 7:00 for the service to begin, then wait for the preliminaries to be finished, then wait for the preaching to be done and by then it would have been about 9:00 o’clock. He believed that the promise of the HGB was a gift and did not think he would have to wait for a while before receiving a gift that was offered. He blurted out, “But it won’t take me long to receive.”

Because of his obvious eagerness, the pastor said, “Well, come on in then.” As he stepped in the door the pastor told him, “I know you can receive the Holy Ghost right away because we read about it in the Acts of the Apostles. But when you have to wait a long time before you receive the Holy Spirit, the experience means so much more to you.” The pastor continued, “Take me, for instance. It took me three years and six months to receive the Holy Ghost. Oh, I waited and waited; I tarried and I sought. Now that I’ve finally received, the Holy Ghost really means something to me.”

Bro. Hagin said, “Well, poor old Paul didn’t know that. I wish you could have gotten to him and told him about waiting. He didn’t know that, because he received the Holy Ghost immediately when Ananias laid hands on him (Acts 9:17-18). Paul didn’t wait or tarry or seek.” He continued, “But then, all Paul ever did was write about half the New Testament! Of course, he did more single-handedly in the years of his ministry than any denomination has done in five hundred years put together. But, if you could have gotten to him and told him to wait three years and six months to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, then maybe the Holy Spirit would have meant something to him too.”

Bro. Hagin continues his story of how he received the Holy Ghost Baptism. He walked into the living room and knelt at a large chair. This is how he relates his experience:

As I knelt in that Full Gospel parsonage in April 1937, I said to the Lord, “Lord the Holy Ghost is a gift. I received salvation by faith. I received healing for my body three years ago by faith. Now I receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by faith. And I want to thank You now, Heavenly Father, because I receive the Holy Spirit.”

Then I said to the Lord “By faith I have now received the Holy Ghost. Thank God He is in me because Jesus promised that in His Word. And I say it with my mouth because I believe in my heart that I have received the Holy Ghost. Now I expect to speak with tongues because believers spoke with tongues on the Day of Pentecost. And thank God, I will, too as the Holy Ghost gives me utterance.”

After I had prayed that, because I was grateful for the Holy Ghost that I had just received and for the speaking with tongues that God was going to give me, I said, “Hallelujah, hallelujah.” But I had never felt so “dry” in all my life saying that word.

Feelings and faith are far removed from each other; in fact, some times when you feel as if you have the least faith, that is when you have the most faith because you do not base your faith on your feelings. So I said, “Hallelujah” about seven or eight times, even though it seemed as if the word was going to choke me.

About the time I had said “Hallelujah” seven or eight times, way down inside of me, in my spirit, I heard these strange words. It seemed as if they were just going around and around in there. It seemed to me that I would know what they would sound like if they were spoken, so I just started speaking them out!

So about eight minutes from the time I first knocked on that pastor’s door, I was speaking with tongues! The pastor had said, “Wait,” but instead of waiting, I spent that hour and a half before the church service speaking in tongues! it is much better to wait with the Holy Ghost than to wait without the Holy Ghost!

[Jeffrey]

Of course I didn't beg, I just "thanked him in advance" for 10 hours! lol

[Sam]

In 1964 John and Elizabeth Sherrill wrote a book titled “They Speak With Other Tongues.” The book has gone through several printings and about 2.5 million copies have been sold worldwide. I read it about 40 years ago and was blessed by it. I guess there is no way to know how many people have been informed and influenced by it and how many have received the experience known as “the Pentecostal Experience” or “The Baptism in the Holy Spirit” because of that book.

Here is an excerpt from chapter 2, pages 23-27.

I first heard of Harald Bredesen through Mrs. Norman Vincent Peale, a coeditor, with her husband of “Guideposts.” We were holding a regular Monday night editorial meeting when she came in a little out of breath.

“I’m sorry to be late,” she said. Then, even before her coat was off, “...I’ve just had dinner with a young man who’s given me a real jolt --and a lot to think about.”

I had worked with Ruth Peale for ten years. Everyone on the staff valued her for a quality of balance and levelheaded good sense. She could always be counted on to bring us back to earth, should our thinking ever become too abstract or wishful. I make a point of this because of the strangeness of the story that Ruth told us that evening. It sounded so fanciful that if it had come from someone else, I might have dismissed it rather quickly.

“Have you ever heard the expression ‘speaking in tongues’?” she asked. Most of us had a vague recollection of the phrase. It came from the Bible, I thought.

“’Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels...’ That one?” I said.

“That’s one reference, “ Ruth said. “It’s mentioned in the gospels and Paul speaks of it several times, but most of the references are in the Book of Acts. Apparently, speaking in tongues was a big part of the life of the early Church. Far more than I’d realized.

“Well, my dinner guest said that he had had this experience himself. Not only he, but some of his friends too. Norman and I sat spellbound for two hours while he told us about people all over the country who are having this happen to them. Apparently, the ‘tongue’ sometimes turns out to be a real language, which someone listening will understand, although the speaker has never learned it and has no idea what he is saying. It sounds crazy, doesn’t it? But there’s something about this man....” She paused. “Well, I for one want to know more about it”

After the meeting I told Ruth that I would like to meet her speaker in tongues. I thought it might make a good story for the magazine. I did meet him. But the deeper I got into the subject, the more I realized that I had stumbled onto something too big for a single magazine article.

Harald Bredesen is an ordained minister, pastor of the First Reformed Church, Mount Vernon, New York. He is about my age, then in his late thirties. He had a clerical collar, a bald spot and an excitement that was contagious. Bredesen and I had lunch together in a restaurant near my office, and there, in a setting of coffee cups and sugar shakers, he told me a story that seemed to come from a different world.

A few years earlier, Harald Bredesen, although he’d been busily involved in the work of his church, had also been a dissatisfied young man. It seemed to him that his religious life had no vitality to it, especially when he compared his experiences with those of the earliest Christians.

“There was an excitement, a stirring of life in the young Church” Bredesen said. “The Church today; by and large, has lost this. You’ve felt it, I’m sure. Where are the changed lives? Where are the healings? Where is the belief that men will die for?”

At home in the evenings Bredesen had begun to read the biblical accounts of the early churches with these questions in mind, and almost instantly fell upon a clue. The more he read, the more he became convinced that first-century Christians received their vitality from the Holy Spirit, and more especially from an experience called, in the New Testament, the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Bredesen determined that he was going to have this experience for himself, and he went about it by taking a vacation. He headed for the Allegheny Mountains, ensconced himself in a mountain cabin and there began to pray around the clock. He made up his mind to stay in that cabin until he reached a new level of communication with God. Day after day he kept up his prayer vigil.

At last one morning while he was standing outside the cabin praying aloud, a stillness seemed to settle over the hills. Every fiber of Bredesen’s body tensed, as if his whole being were entering into a new plane of awareness. He stopped speaking for a moment. And when he began again, out of his mouth came, and here are his words as I wrote them down that day:

“...the most beautiful outpouring of vowels and consonants and also some strange, guttural syllables. I could not recognize any of it. It was as though I was listening to a foreign language, except that it was coming out of my own mouth.”

Amazed, curious and a bit frightened, Bredesen ran down the mountain, still talking aloud in this tongue. He came to the edge of a small community. On the stoop of a cabin sat an old man. Bredesen continued to speak in the tongue that was coming so easily and naturally from his lips. The man answered, talking rapidly in a language that Bredesen did not know. When it became obvious that they were not communicating, the old man spoke in English.

“How can you speak Polish but not understand it?” the man asked.

“I was speaking Polish?”

The man laughed, thinking that Bredesen was joking. “Of course it was Polish,” he said.

But Bredesen wasn’t joking. As far as he could recall, he had never before heard the language.

I was still drumming the tabletop over that one, when he told me of a second experience, this one in a lobby of a New York hotel. Bredesen was attending a breakfast meeting and had left his hat on a chair outside the dining room. When the time came to leave, he found the chair occupied not by his hat, but by a pretty young lady.

At the time Bredesen was a bachelor, and his male instincts prompted him to extend the conversation beyond a formal excuse-me-have-you-seen-my-hat? The girl noticed the clerical collar, and in a few minutes they were deep in a conversation on religion. After a while the young lady volunteered the information that her own religious life somehow left her dissatisfied. And soon Bredesen was telling her that he too had felt this lack but that he had found a new dimension in his devotional life through speaking in tongues.

“Through what?” asked the girl.

“Speaking in a language that God gives you,” Bredesen said, and went on to tell her a little about his experience. In the girl’s eyes he read disbelief and also something like apprehension.

“Can you speak in these tongues any time you want to?” she said, and he thought she edged imperceptibly to the far side of her chair.

“They’re given us for prayer.”

“Well, can you pray in tongues whenever you want to?”

“Yes. Would you like me to pray this way now?”

The girl looked around the lobby, outright alarm in her eyes this time.

“I won’t embarrass you” said Bredesen, and with that he bowed his head slightly and after a short silent prayer began speaking words that to him were unintelligible. The sounds were clipped and full of ps and ks. When he finished, he opened his eyes and saw that the girl’s face was ashen.

“Why ... why ... I understood you. You were praising God. You were speaking a very old form of Arabic.”

“How do you know?” asked Bredesen.

Then he learned that the girl was the daughter of an Egyptologist, that she herself spoke several modern Arabic dialects and had studied archaic Arabic.

“You pronounced the words perfectly,” she said. “Where on earth did you learn old Arabic?”

Harald Bredesen shook his head. “I didn’t” he said. “I didn’t even know there was such a language.”

My interview with Harald Bredesen left me more puzzled than enlightened. Surely there was a logical explanation for the tales he’d told me. Otherwise what he was claiming were out-and-out miracles, and this just didn’t jibe with anything I knew of the world today.

[Sam]

I recently finished reading “Nine O’clock In The Morning” by Dennis J. Bennett, copyright 1970.

Dennis J. Bennett (born 10/28/17, died 11/1/91) was an Episcopal clergyman prominently identified with the Charismatic Renewal from the beginning. He was pastor of the St. Mark Episcopal Church in Van Nuys, CA., a congregation of about 2600, and in 1959 and early 1960, he and several others in the church were baptized in the Holy Spirit. The group of Spirit-filled believers in the congregation grew and and there was some division among church members over the experience. On April 3, 1960, Pastor Bennett announced his experience in a sermon to the congregation and later resigned his position as pastor. He then moved to St. Luke’s in Seattle and from there traveled nationally and internationally teaching on and ministering the Holy Spirit. At the time the book was written he estimated that between 8 and 10 thousand people had received the Holy Ghost Baptism through meetings in the Seattle area. The April 3, 1960 date is usually considered the beginning of the Charismatic Renewal so next month will be a 50 year anniversary.

The book starts out on his day off when a fellow Episcopal priest named Frank visited him and expressed concern about a couple of members in his (Frank’s) church. When Father Bennett asked him why he is concerned about his members, the priest says that, although they had been members of the church when he first came as pastor, they recently started coming to church on a regular basis, and seemed to be "enjoying" their religion. When asked, they explained that the reason for the big change in them is that they had recently been baptized in the Holy Spirit and had spoken with tongues.

Well, Father Bennett becomes intrigued and starts visiting with them and then attending some prayer meetings, talking to people, and investigating by reading the Bible. After about three months of cautiously looking on, he is told that if he wants to be baptized in the Spirit, all he has to do is ask for the experience. On a Saturday afternoon, Father Bennett and another priest from his diocese (not Frank) were in the couple’s home and it happened.

Here’s how the book describes the event on pages 20 and 21.

John came across the room and laid his hands first on my head, and then on my friend’s. He began to pray, very quietly, and I recognized the same thing as when Bud had prayed with me a few days before: he was speaking a language that I did not understand, and speaking it very fluently. He wasn’t a bit “worked up” about it either. Then he prayed in English for Jesus to baptize me in the Holy Spirit.

I began to pray, as he told me, and I prayed very quietly, too. I was not about to get even a little bit excited! I was simply following instructions. I suppose I must have prayed out loud for about twenty minutes --at least it seemed to be a log time-- and was just about to give up when a very strange thing happened. My tongue tripped, just as it might when you are trying to recite a tongue twister, and I began to speak in a new language!

Right away I recognized several things: first, it wasn’t some kind of psychological trick or compulsion. There was nothing compulsive about it. I was allowing these new words to come to my lips and was speaking them out of my own volition, without in any way being forced to do it. I wasn’t “carried away” in any sense of the word, but was fully in possession of my wits and my willpower. I spoke the new language because it was interesting to speak a language I had never learned, even though I didn’t know what I was saying. I had taken quite a while to learn a small amount of German and French, but here was a language “for free”! Secondly, it was a real language, not some kind of “baby-talk.” It had grammar and syntax: it had inflection and expression --and it was rather beautiful! I went on allowing these new words to come to my lips for about five minutes, then said to my friends: “Well, that must be what you mean by ‘speaking in tongues’ --but what is it all about? I don’t feel anything?”

They said joyfully, “Praise the Lord!”

This seemed a bit irrelevant and was a little strong for my constitution. It bordered on the fanatical for such a thing to be said by Episcopalians on a fine Saturday afternoon sitting right in the front room of their own home.

[Sam]

This is from a booklet called "The Charismatic Movement, Renewal or Confusion?" which I received from Pastor James Lee Beall quite a while ago ( in the 1960's or maybe in the early 1970's). He was pastor of Bethesda Missionary Temple in Detroit, MI. This church was considered "Latter Rain," "Oneness Pentecostal," or "Apostolic Pentecostal" depending on your viewpoint. In this portion he describes his attitude toward "Charismatics," and tells of being invited to participate in one of their meetings and of people receiving the Holy Ghost Baptism.

---------------
Religious Superiority

It is relatively simple to sit back and criticize every and all religious groups. If you want something to offend you, it will be easily found.

When the Lord God first began to pour the Holy Spirit upon segments of the organized church --the Catholics, the Baptists, the Episcopalians, etc., I sat back to criticize. Believe me, I found plenty that I did not consider right or proper.

How superior I felt as I sat in my detached ivory tower pointing out the wrongs committed by others! There is no feeling quite like that which comes with religious superiority. It is like the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of you."

...It is my personal opinion that the charismatic renewal has brought segments of the religious world to needed areas of maturity. For the first time in years and years, men and women of different persuasions are able to sit down and talk without cutting one another to pieces. We have ceased being afraid of one another.

My First Charismatic Conference.

Some years back I was invited to one of the major U.S. cities to take part in a city-wide charismatic conference. This was the first for me and I wasn't sure that I wanted to go.

I gave the matter some thought and prayer. Inwardly I knew it was the right step for me. I accepted the invitations and left for the meetings.

What I saw in the initial services made me a little uneasy. Hundreds of people were in attendance with clergymen of all backgrounds.

During the course of this dinner-meeting,the religious community was invited to stand and identify themselves. To my surprise, the Roman Catholics --priests and nuns-- were in the majority.

I could not believe they were really interested in knowing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and what God was doing spiritually all over the world. I had come to believe that Roman Catholics and Episcopalians were such dyed-in-the-wool sacramentalists that personal spiritual experiences were of little or no interest to them. In that meeting, I began to get the sneaky hunch that I might have been wrong.

The day after the initial dinner-meeting we conducted our services in one of the local church buildings. My responsibility was to speak morning and evening.

Following my teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit that evening I invited those who were interested to stand and express their interest in this way. About half of that audience responded.

The church sanctuary was completely filled so I asked those seated in the right front section to move toward the rear if they were not interested in further instruction and prayer for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Finally, we got everyone settled again.

There in the first rows were Roman Catholic priests and nuns, along with other ministers and workers from various churches. I didn't know exactly what I ought to do.

The reason for my quandry was that I knew the Lord had no intention of filling these people with the Holy Spirit. They belonged to the wrong churches and I was not even sure of their salvation. There was no other step to be taken except that of instruction. This I did with the intention of eventually leading them to prayer.

In my prayer I led these seekers to repeat after me. My prayer would be a request for the forgiveness of sins and the confession that we were fully aware that there was one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. I was going to make Protestants out of all these Catholics if I possibly could. After all, this was the only way they could receive something from the Lord.

Mixed Reactions

While I was praying with my eyes closed, my prayer was interrupted. Someone was singing and praising God in another language. In a few minutes, others joined in.

When I opened my eyes to see who it was who was being filled with the Holy Spirit, i was amazed to find the majority of them were obviously Roman Catholics. My reactions were mixed. I was happy for them, while at the same time puzzled. How could this happen? What did it all mean?

The next day the entire scene broke in on me again. All I could say was, "God did it!" I did not lay my hands on them. No one gave them words to say nor did we initiate anything.

God evidently did not care if they were protestants or Catholics and He did not keep the Spirit from them because they wore clerical clothes. The Lord God looked down into the hearts and saw the hunger there. Not a hunger for things, or experiences, or gifts --just a deep and singular hunger and thirst for Him. He meets the hungry and satisfies their mouth with good things. Make no mistake about this.

[Arphaxad]

When I was baptized I was told to praise the Lord and if I started saying things that I didn't know what I was saying that it was tongues and I was being filled with the Holy Ghost. So after I came out of the water I got like 3 "praise the Lord's" out and started saying things that I didn't know what I was saying and felt like I was going to burst into flames all soaking wet. I didn't know anything about HG or tongues before that, it was my first night in apostolic/pentecostal church. So I never asked to be filled, and still don't, I just do the same thing-start praising and worshipping wherever I am and can feel God all around me and in me. ( though I don't feel like I'm going to "flame on" all the time!) Isn't it neat how God works?


:doggyrun

[jfrog]

When I was baptized I was told to praise the Lord and if I started saying things that I didn't know what I was saying that it was tongues and I was being filled with the Holy Ghost. So after I came out of the water I got like 3 "praise the Lord's" out and started saying things that I didn't know what I was saying and felt like I was going to burst into flames all soaking wet. I didn't know anything about HG or tongues before that, it was my first night in apostolic/pentecostal church. So I never asked to be filled, and still don't, I just do the same thing-start praising and worshipping wherever I am and can feel God all around me and in me. ( though I don't feel like I'm going to "flame on" all the time!) Isn't it neat how God works?


:doggyrun

I really should have put a 0 option!

[Sam]

When I was baptized I was told to praise the Lord and if I started saying things that I didn't know what I was saying that it was tongues and I was being filled with the Holy Ghost. So after I came out of the water I got like 3 "praise the Lord's" out and started saying things that I didn't know what I was saying and felt like I was going to burst into flames all soaking wet. I didn't know anything about HG or tongues before that, it was my first night in apostolic/pentecostal church. So I never asked to be filled, and still don't, I just do the same thing-start praising and worshipping wherever I am and can feel God all around me and in me. ( though I don't feel like I'm going to "flame on" all the time!) Isn't it neat how God works?


:doggyrun

OK, that sounds good to me. Perhaps we would have more people receiving the HGB sooner if they were instructed that way. I think we make it harder for people to just accept and begin speaking with tongues. We give people the idea that the Holy Ghost is gonna just take over and force out some unknown language or words. Actually, in Acts 2:4 it says "and they (the 120 or so) were all filled with the Holy Ghost and (they) began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." Notice who spoke. They (the 120) did the speaking but the Spirit gave the utterance. Also notice that they spoke in tongues because they were filled or as a result of their filling, not in order to receive the filling. They were filled first and because they were filled, they then (subsequently) began to speak with tongues.

Speaking with tongues may not be immediate upon being baptized in the Holy Ghost. Wow, we better be careful where we go with that!! I've heard of people (actually just heard one preacher say it this past Wednesday at a prayer meeting) that when she was baptized in the Spirit she did not speak with tongues for a couple of days.

[mizpeh]

Speaking with tongues may not be immediate upon being baptized in the Holy Ghost. Wow, we better be careful where we go with that!! I've heard of people (actually just heard one preacher say it this past Wednesday at a prayer meeting) that when she was baptized in the Spirit she did not speak with tongues for a couple of days.Sam, who are we going to believe? The testimonies in the Bible or someone who said she was baptized in the Spirit but did not speak in tongues for a couple of days?

How did she know she was baptized in the Spirit before she spoke with tongues?

[Sam]

Sam, who are we going to believe? The testimonies in the Bible or someone who said she was baptized in the Spirit but did not speak in tongues for a couple of days?

How did she know she was baptized in the Spirit before she spoke with tongues?

If she had hands laid on her which seems to be the normal way to minister the Holy Ghost Baptism, I assume she believed that she received the experience right then when the hands were placed on her. Then, because she was a believer, the sign of tongues "followed" a couple of days later.

[Sam]

This is from chapter 4, pages 31-38 of “Prison To Praise” copyright 1970. The book was written by Chaplain (LTC) Merlin R. Carothers and tells of his conversion after leaving the U.S. Army, his college training and entrance back into the Service as a Chaplain, and then his ministry for several years. Chapter 4 tells about how he heard of and received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

For some time I’d been going to a small weekly prayer group near Fort Bragg. One evening, Ruth, a member of the group was visibly moved during a prayer session. I’d watched her during several meetings and often thought I’d like to ask her how she had come to experience such obvious joy in her life. Unlike some of the rest of us, she seemed to be filled continuously with a joy I certainly had felt only on rare occasions in my life.

This particular evening Ruth confided in me, “I was so blessed I almost prayed out loud in tongues.”

“You almost what?” I was horrified.

“Prayed in tongues, “Ruth said brightly.

I lowered my voice and looked around to see if we were being watched. “Ruth, you could have ruined our group! What has come over you?”

Ruth laughed heartily. ”I’ve been praying in tongues ever since I received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.”

“What is that?” I’d never herd the term before.

Ruth patiently explained that it was the same experience that the disciples had at Pentecost. “I experienced my own Pentecost, she smiled with unmistakable radiance.

“I thought you were Baptist,” I felt shaken.

“I am, but God is moving in all denominations.”...

I put my hand on her arm. “Be careful, Ruth,” I said earnestly, “You’re playing with dangerous stuff. I’ll be praying for you, nd if you need help, call me.”

Ruth smiled and patted my hand, “Thank you, Merlin, I appreciate your concern.”

Some time later she called me.

Ruth later called Merlin and invited him to come to a retreat. Other calls followed reminding him to bring his golf golf clubs and letting him know that all his expenses would be paid for him and another minister if he wanted to bring a friend. He and a Presbyterian minister named Dick went.

The story continues,

The services were unlike anything we’d ever attended before. People sang with uninhibited joy, clapped their hands and actually raised their arms while they were singing.

Both Dick and I felt very much out of place, but agreed there was a joy here that we could learn something from.

One ...lady kept coming up to us and saying, “Has anything happened yet?”

“No, ma’am, what do you mean?” we’d answer.

“You’ll see, you’ll see,” she always said.

Ruth and some of the others who had invited us urged me to have a private talk with a certain lady who they said had unusual power.

They took us to meet her, and I instantly disliked her She quoted scripture in a way that made me feel as if she was trying to convert me. I didn’t like to have scripture quoted to me, and especially by a woman.

Still, our friends insisted that we have a talk with her, and since they’d paid our way there, I felt ie we ought to oblige.

We sat patiently as she told us what God had done in her life and in the lives of others that she knew. She made numerous references to the “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” and went through the Scriptures to show that the experience had been a common one for Christians in the first century.

“The Holy Spirit is still doing the same thing in many people’s lives today,” she said. “Jesus Christ still baptizes those who believe in Him, just as He did at Pentecost.”

I felt a twinge of excitement. Could it be that I could experience my own Pentecost? Could I see tongues of fire, hear the rush of wind, and speak in an unknown tongue?

She had finished talking and sat looking at us.


I’d like to pray for you,’” she said softly. “That you might receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.”

Without hesitating I said, “Yes.”

She placed her hands on my head and began to pray softly. I waited for “it” to hit me. Nothing happened. I didn’t feel a thing.

She went on and placed her hands on Dick’s head. When she had finished praying I looked at him and he looked at me. I could tell he hadn’t felt anything either. This whole thing was a fake.

The lady looked at us both with a hint of a smile.

“You haven’t felt anything yet, have you?”

We shook our heads. “No, ma’am.”

“I’m going to pray for you in a language you will not understand. As I pray you will receive a new language of your own.”

Again she placed her hands on my head. I felt nothing, saw nothing, heard nothing. When she was through praying she asked if I could hear or sense any words within me that I didn’t understand. I thought for a moment and realized that there were in my mind words that didn’t mean anything to me. I felt certain that these words were a product of my own imagination, and I told her so.

“If you said them out loud, would you feel as if you were being made a fool of?” she asked.

“I certainly would.”

“Would you be willing t be a fool for Christ’s sake?” This put the whole situation in a different. perspective. Of course I’d do anything for Christ, but speaking out loud such utter nonsense could mean disaster for my future. I could imagine all those people going around telling everyone that a Methodist chaplain had been praying in an unknown tongue. I might even have to leave the Army! Still, what if this was what Christ wanted me to do? Suddenly even my army career seemed less important. Haltingly I began to speak out loud the words that were forming in my mouth.

Still I felt nothing different. I did believe that Jesus Christ had given me a new tongue as a sign that He had baptized me in the Holy Spirit, yet the disciples at Pentecost had acted like drunk men. Obviously they had been overwhelmed by some feeling.

I watched Dick; his experience seemed to be the same as mine. He spoke words of an unknown tongue and believed in the validity of it, yet displayed no emotional reaction.


”Your experience is based on faith in a fact, not on feeling,” said the lady, apparently reading our minds.

I sat in deep thought --I didn’t feel any different, but was I different? I looked up; an amazing realization had just hit me.

“I know that Jesus Christ is alive!” I said. ”I don’t just believe, I KNOW!”

Why of course! The Holy Spirit brings witness of Jesus Christ says the Bible. Now I knew that to be a fact. That was the source of the new authority the disciples after Pentecost. They didn’t remember a man who had lived and died and risen again. They knew Him in the present tense because He had filled them with His Holy Spirit whose primary purpose is to witness to Jesus Christ!

In a flash I understood the horror of what I’d been guilty of for the last several years. Not only I, scores of so-called Christians in pulpits and in pews who dilute the message of the Cross and the central position of Christ.

Even as I saw the magnitude of my sin, I also saw Jesus Christ in all His splendor as my redeemer. I saw Him for what I’d always known deep in my heart that He was. All my recent nagging doubts were swept away by a wave of joyous certainty....

“Thank you, Jesus!” I stood up, and as I reached my full height, something hit me! I was suddenly filled and overflowing with a feeling of warmth nd love for everybody in the room.

It must have hit Dick at the same time. I saw the tears well up in his eyes, and without a word we reached out and gave each other a bear hug, laughing and crying at the same time.

I looked at the dear lady I had resented so fiercely just a short while ago, and realized that I loved her. She was my sister in Christ!

We went downstairs for lunch and I felt an overwhelming love for everyone I saw. I had never known anything like it before.

That evening Dick and I began to pray in one of the the rooms. People came to join us and soon the room was full. As we prayed others were filled with the Holy Spirit. The hotel rang with shouts of joy as people experienced the fullness of Christ’s presence.

At 2:00 a.m. Dick and I tried to go to sleep. It was no use, we were too excited.

I said, “Dick, let’s get up and pray some more.” We prayed for another two hours for everyone we knew and then praised God for His goodness to us.

[Sam]

The reason I'm posting these various accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost Baptism is to show that God does baptize people in His Spirit when they open up to Him and allow Him to. This experience can happen without a person being ganged up on in at an altar in a church and after extended praying and exertion. I wish I had known this years ago when I used to "tarry" and "seek the Holy Ghost."

Like I had posted earlier, I did begin to speak with another tongue/language on May 20, 1955 which just happened to be Pentecost Sunday that year.

[notofworks]

Of course I didn't beg, I just "thanked him in advance" for 10 hours! lol



:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny
Post of the day.

[notofworks]

The Samaritans were seeking for the Holy Ghost. They weren't filled until Peter and John came to pray with them.

You know I love you, Miz, and respect you and admire you and I KNOW you have a heart after God. But this is what baffles me about your position. You are stretched this example beyond all recognition. This story isn't anywhere in the same hemisphere as the grinding at the altar that pentecostals put people through under the guise of being saved through the "Filling of the Holy Ghost."

I don't mean this to be offensive, but can you hear yourself here?

[noeticknight]

Sam, who are we going to believe? The testimonies in the Bible or someone who said she was baptized in the Spirit but did not speak in tongues for a couple of days?

How did she know she was baptized in the Spirit before she spoke with tongues?


Good question mizpeh, at what point do we know we have received God's gift? Let me ask you this. How and when did the centurion know that his servant was healed?


As Jesus went into Capernaum, a centurion came up to Him, begging Him, And saying, Lord, my servant boy is lying at the house paralyzed and distressed with intense pains. And Jesus said to him, I will come and restore him.

But the centurion replied to Him, Lord, I am not worthy or fit to have You come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant boy will be cured.
For I also am a man subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my slave, Do this, and he does it.
When Jesus heard him, He marveled and said to those who followed Him who adhered steadfastly to Him, conforming to His example in living and, if need be, in dying also, I tell you truly, I have not found so much faith as this with anyone, even in Israel.

I tell you, many will come from east and west, and will sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, While the sons and heirs of the kingdom will be driven out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. Then to the centurion Jesus said, Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed. And the servant boy was restored to health at that very moment. (Matthew 8:5-13)


Now, regarding the above, do you believe Jesus would have bestowed one of the greatest praises in all of His ministry on this man if he had asked for a sign of confirmation, a receipt of service if you will? --"Let me now tarry until thou send a sign of the miracle." :nah

Imo, and in theme with this thread, I think the story of the centurion really puts things in perspective when we talk of asking and receiving divine gifts from God. You have people that come to God with only their faith, as is what our Lord requires, but it seems there are always those around trying to take measurements of that faith, as if God needs assistance or has hung up His mantle of sovereignty.

[mizpeh]

You know I love you, Miz, and respect you and admire you and I KNOW you have a heart after God. But this is what baffles me about your position. You are stretched this example beyond all recognition. This story isn't anywhere in the same hemisphere as the grinding at the altar that pentecostals put people through under the guise of being saved through the "Filling of the Holy Ghost."

I don't mean this to be offensive, but can you hear yourself here?

I'm not offended.

I believe all of the early church taught the same thing. Philip preached the same gospel that the apostles did which was a similar message to what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. A message that included faith in Christ, repentance, baptism for the forgiveness of sins, the infilling of the Holy Spirit, resurrection, and judgement. The infilling of the Holy Spirit is part of the new birth. And the new birth is a MUST. I'm assuming that Philip preached the same things that Peter preached and therefore Philip would have taught on the baptism of the Spirit with the sign of speaking with other tongues. When the Spirit wasn't given they sent for the apostles who came to them, prayed for them with the laying on of hands, and then they received the Spirit.

We don't just go by the smallest common denominator that we find in all of the conversions and preaching messages found in the book of Acts, which would be faith in Christ, and say "this is what we must do to be saved", but we have to take everything into account.


5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

[noeticknight]

I'm assuming that Philip preached the same things that Peter preached and therefore Philip would have taught on the baptism of the Spirit with the sign of speaking with other tongues. When the Spirit wasn't given they sent for the apostles who came to them, prayed for them with the laying on of hands, and then they received the Spirit.

Were the Apostles "tongue doctors," or were they just believing that God would pour out His Spirit if they ministered to the people? Yes, I believe it is complete and total assumption to assert that they were expecting them to speak in tongues as a universal sign.

We don't just go by the smallest common denominator that we find in all of the conversions and preaching messages found in the book of Acts, which would be faith in Christ, and say "this is what we must do to be saved", but we have to take everything into account.

What do the epistles teach us of salvation? Shouldn't this doctrine of applying the "highest uncommon denominator" to all people for all time have another witness in the didactic portions of the Word?

...14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
So you believe that it was the author's intent here to portray the Apostles as "spiritual scientists" conferring back and forth as to who was saved and who wasn't? Could it be a possibility that the author was parenthetically giving a narrative account from a perspective of recollection? Why assume that the Apostles "expected" a sign of tongues? And even if one reasons that they did expect some manifestation to occur, why assume the Samaritans unsaved?

[noeticknight]

We can certainly get microscopic with the scriptures, but before we get too deep into that, what about the age of the "Initial Evidence" doctrine? The original formulators had no such ideas about "speaking in tongues" being linked to salvation, so why adopt a reformulated theory less than a century old? And btw, where does this theory put the rest of Christendom?

This doctrine was handed down to me from my former church leader. The history was never explained, and its evolution into a requirement for salvation was always kept conveniently hidden. Instead, I grew up witnessing pressure-cook church services that must have been like hitting the jackpot on a slot machine in Vegas, "We've got one over here that won it!!!" "Not tonight, but don't worry, next week is your lucky week!!" In the end, it made me no more of a Christian than his other teachings such as "outward holiness standards" or paying a penalty of 5% on your gross if you missed paying the mandated 10%.

[noeticknight]

I've totally hijacked this thread now jfrog, you must be getting slack on the job...

:winkgrin

[Jeffrey]

Sam, who are we going to believe? The testimonies in the Bible or someone who said she was baptized in the Spirit but did not speak in tongues for a couple of days?

How did she know she was baptized in the Spirit before she spoke with tongues?

The "testimonies of the Bible" are really "testimonies of people" aren't they?

How do you know God exists? What is your absolute, undeniable proof?

[notofworks]

Oh my goodness!!! I just read the poll results. Unreal. What an indictment of the process. If 70% of respondents had to "Try" more than 20 times, what does this say about the "tongues" concept as a whole?

Wow.

[jfrog]

Oh my goodness!!! I just read the poll results. Unreal. What an indictment of the process. If 70% of respondents had to "Try" more than 20 times, what does this say about the "tongues" concept as a whole?

Wow.

2 people got it without ever asking (I gave no poll option for this). So its actually more like 11/18, which is only only about 61.1%

[jfrog]

Oh my goodness!!! I just read the poll results. Unreal. What an indictment of the process. If 70% of respondents had to "Try" more than 20 times, what does this say about the "tongues" concept as a whole?

Wow.

I suppose if you believed that tongues were required, then you would view that as affirmation that salvation was not easy to obtain. "Narrow is the way..."

[mfblume]

The truth is we have to rest assured in the persuasion we sincerely believe in. If someone feels tongues is always initial evidence for Spirit Baptism, and believes Spirit baptism is required for salvation, then they have to stand before God with that persuasion. If someone disagrees, they have to stand before God with their persuasion. Arguing over who is right will not change the reality of who is right.

There are times we have to simply state our opinions to those who sincerely want to know, and realize that those who disagree are not stupid, just of a different, sincere opinion. And when we get UPSET at another opinion, we have veered off into carnality. It's like we demand people see our identity in doctrine, and feel personally attacked when our doctrine is attacked, showing we are not looking for identity in Christ but in impressing people with how CORRECT we are.

Rom 14:5 ...Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


Do not think you can take away my privilege of being fully persuaded in my own mind. We each must LET the other be persuaded in their own minds.

Disagree gracefully. :D

[jfrog]

The truth is we have to rest assured in the persuasion we sincerely believe in. If someone feels tongues is always initial evidence for Spirit Baptism, and believes Spirit baptism is required for salvation, then they have to stand before God with that persuasion. If someone disagrees, they have to stand before God with their persuasion. Arguing over who is right will not change the reality of who is right.

There are times we have to simply state our opinions to those who sincerely want to know, and realize that those who disagree are not stupid, just of a different, sincere opinion. And when we get UPSET at another opinion, we have veered off into carnality. It's like we demand people see our identity in doctrine, and feel personally attacked when our doctrine is attacked, showing we are not looking for identity in Christ but in impressing people with how CORRECT we are.

Rom 14:5 ...Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


Do not think you can take away my privilege of being fully persuaded in my own mind. We each must LET the other be persuaded in their own minds.

Disagree gracefully. :D

Okay Mr. Relative :P jkjk

I do like that philosophy. Good post Blume!

[mizpeh]

The truth is we have to rest assured in the persuasion we sincerely believe in. If someone feels tongues is always initial evidence for Spirit Baptism, and believes Spirit baptism is required for salvation, then they have to stand before God with that persuasion. If someone disagrees, they have to stand before God with their persuasion. Arguing over who is right will not change the reality of who is right.

There are times we have to simply state our opinions to those who sincerely want to know, and realize that those who disagree are not stupid, just of a different, sincere opinion. And when we get UPSET at another opinion, we have veered off into carnality. It's like we demand people see our identity in doctrine, and feel personally attacked when our doctrine is attacked, showing we are not looking for identity in Christ but in impressing people with how CORRECT we are.

Rom 14:5 ...Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


Do not think you can take away my privilege of being fully persuaded in my own mind. We each must LET the other be persuaded in their own minds.

Disagree gracefully. :D The judgement seat of Christ puts everything into perspective.

[ILG]

I voted once. I am assuming you mean the baptism of the HG. I only asked once. For refillings now, that is a whole different story.

[jfrog]

I voted once. I am assuming you mean the baptism of the HG. I only asked once. For refillings now, that is a whole different story.

You would be correct! I just realized my question could be interpreted that other way. I hope no one thought that is what I meant.

[notofworks]

2 people got it without ever asking (I gave no poll option for this). So its actually more like 11/18, which is only only about 61.1%


Oh, only 61% had to beg relentlessly to be saved. That changes everything!:lol

[notofworks]

I suppose if you believed that tongues were required, then you would view that as affirmation that salvation was not easy to obtain. "Narrow is the way..."

Narrow? Privileged few? Those that know how to repeat what they've heard? Those that say, "Hallelujah" so quickly that everyone starts yelling and says it's the Holy Ghost?

This whole subject lights my fire. It's an insult the the Holy Spirit that indwells EVERY believer, not just the special few that manage to regurgitate unintelligible "words" that no one understands.

[jfrog]

Oh, only 61% had to beg relentlessly to be saved. That changes everything!:lol

LOL. Oh come on. You know you are suprised that there are so many people that didn't have to beg relentlessly for it :P

[mfblume]

This whole subject lights my fire.

:huh

[mizpeh]

Oh, only 61% had to beg relentlessly to be saved. That changes everything!:lolBegging doesn't work! :girlytantrum

[jfrog]

Begging doesn't work! :girlytantrum

It does sometimes... just ask your kids :P

[notofworks]

:huh


I guess maybe everyone just needs to "get rid of sin", huh Mike? How come that never happened in the New Testament? Hmmm.......

[notofworks]

Begging doesn't work! :girlytantrum


A decoder ring, maybe?

[mfblume]

I guess maybe everyone just needs to "get rid of sin", huh Mike? How come that never happened in the New Testament? Hmmm.......

It happened left and right in the New testament! It's called repentance.



God bless you, too. :)

when we get UPSET at another opinion, we have veered off into carnality. It's like we demand people see our identity in doctrine, and feel personally attacked when our doctrine is attacked, showing we are not looking for identity in Christ but in impressing people with how CORRECT we are.

Rom 14:5 ...Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Do not think you can take away my privilege of being fully persuaded in my own mind. We each must LET the other be persuaded in their own minds.

Disagree gracefully.

[notofworks]

It happened left and right in the New testament! It's called repentance.



God bless you, too. :)



Ohhhhhhhhh....now I understand. I guess people now don't repent and THEN, they always did? That's a perfect explanation. Why didn't I think of that?

[notofworks]

:lol

I agree. It's laughable.

[notofworks]

Strawmen always are. :ursofunny

http://davis85.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/scarecrow-wizard-of-oz.jpg

Dictionary definition of "Straw man":

"What a person accuses another of making when they have nothing worthwhile to add to a discussion or cannot cite any reasonable scripture to counter the intelligent point of another".

I just looked it up.

[notofworks]

Dictionary definition of "Straw man":

"What a person accuses another of making when they have nothing worthwhile to add to a discussion or cannot cite any reasonable scripture to counter the intelligent point of another".

I just looked it up.



So Mike......exactly where in the New Testament did anyone ever "Seek for the Holy Ghost" and not get it because there was "sin in their life"? I'm tearing my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance apart and I'm coming up empty.

[notofworks]

More correctly:

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet weaker proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.


Naaaa.....I like my definition better. And it certainly applies here. So can you help me because evidently they left it outta my bible...that chapter where these poor people with sin in their lives kept "seeking" the Holy Ghost. Maybe there were really 30 chapters in Acts and my bible only has 28.

[notofworks]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz

[mfblume]

Naaaa.....I like my definition better. And it certainly applies here. So can you help me because evidently they left it outta my bible...that chapter where these poor people with sin in their lives kept "seeking" the Holy Ghost. Maybe there were really 30 chapters in Acts and my bible only has 28.

Bro., it's in the same chapter where we read of The Lord teaching that repentance is not an action done by conscious effort, and we have no choice in doing it. :lol It's used as the illustration of the point Jesus made in that same chapter.

[notofworks]

Bro., it's in the same chapter where we read of The Lord teaching that repentance is not an action done by conscious effort, and we have no choice in doing it. :lol It's used as the illustration of the point Jesus made in that same chapter.


Really? Can you quote that one? I'm missing where anyone was "seeking" for the Holy Ghost and couldn't get it. Most people...when they develop a religious creed or doctrine or dogma, have at least ONE verse to back it up. Could you, maybe, get just one? It'll help my understanding.

[jfrog]

I'm goina beat you both like wimpy red headed canadian step children if yall don't start playing nice. And yes i meant that to be offensive!

[notofworks]

I'm goina beat you both like wimpy red headed canadian step children if yall don't start playing nice. And yes i meant that to be offensive!



How do you play nice with someone who knows SO much of the bible but doesn't know what any of it means? It's like talking to Harold Camping. (yes, that was meant to be offensive, as well:lol)

[jfrog]

How do you play nice with someone who knows SO much of the bible but doesn't know what any of it means? It's like talking to Harold Camping. (yes, that was meant to be offensive, as well:lol)

I don't know who that is but your about to wish you were a red headed canadian step child!

[mfblume]

Harold Camping Lives!

[jfrog]

Harold Camping Lives!

Yay!!!!

[notofworks]

I don't know who that is but your about to wish you were a red headed canadian step child!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping


It's not pretty!

[mfblume]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping


It's not pretty!

Is so. :p

[notofworks]

Is so. :p


PLEASE don't tell me you agree with anything Harold says......but you know what, that would explain a few things. :lol

[mfblume]

PLEASE don't tell me you agree with anything Harold says......but you know what, that would explain a few things. :lol

Of course I agree with him! He said 2011 is the end of the world. Period. And the rapture is on May 21, 2011. He believes one has no choice in repentance, too. Salvation is unmerited, cannot be achieved by good works or prayer, and is a pure act of God's grace. Go, Harold!

[notofworks]

Of course I agree with him! He said 2011 is the end of the world. Period. And the rapture is on May 21, 2011.

Surely, you jest. You're joking, right??

[mfblume]

Surely, you jest. You're joking, right??

May 21, 2011. Mark it down.

[notofworks]

May 21, 2011. Mark it down.






lol


Ok. So the "lol" means you don't agree with him? But what does it say that I thought you might be serious? :heeheehee

[mizpeh]

Question: so the folks who prayed for the Holy Spirit more than once, how did you know when you were filled?

[jfrog]

Question: so the folks who prayed for the Holy Spirit more than once, how did you know when you were filled?

Because we spoke in tongues...

[notofworks]

ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[On The Wheel]

What always bothers me is watching relatively "innocent" and God fearing and loving children cry and beg for the HG. The are confessing every sin known and unknown, yet they cannot seem to find that ever elusive experience. They leave the altar disappointed and disillusioned, confident that God must not be hearing their prayers. We are left with the unenviable task of trying to explain why a loving God, who can save murderers and drug addicts, did not answer their request to fill their young soul with his Spirit yet again.

This can happen with those that are new in the church as well. They do all they can to repent and receive his Spirit in the manner we explain it must come. They would crawl on a mile of broken glass if we told them it was necessary. We have no such accounts anywhere in scripture. What's wrong?

I'm sorry, but whenever these type of things occur, my mind goes to the story or Elijah and the prophets of Baal. All that is missing from many altar services are the knives.

However, rather than identifying with Elijah, our activities resemble more closely those of the prophets of Baal.

Anyone else observe this?

[Mirth1981]

What always bothers me is watching relatively "innocent" and God fearing and loving children cry and beg for the HG. The are confessing every sin known and unknown, yet they cannot seem to find that ever elusive experience. They leave the altar disappointed and disillusioned, confident that God must not be hearing their prayers. We are left with the unenviable task of trying to explain why a loving God, who can save murderers and drug addicts, did not answer their request to fill their young soul with his Spirit yet again.

This can happen with those that are new in the church as well. They do all they can to repent and receive his Spirit in the manner we explain it must come. They would crawl on a mile of broken glass if we told them it was necessary. We have no such accounts anywhere in scripture. What's wrong?

I'm sorry, but whenever these type of things occur, my mind goes to the story or Elijah and the prophets of Baal. All that is missing from many altar services are the knives.

However, rather than identifying with Elijah, our activities resemble more closely those of the prophets of Baal.

Anyone else observe this?

Yes. It is heartbreaking.

[On The Wheel]

Yes. It is heartbreaking.

Yes, it is. And not found in scripture.

Other than in Acts 2, the first infilling with tongues and the Samaritans, who apparently needed the keys Peter possessed, everyone who sought the spirit received it immediately.

Try as I might, I cannot find our altar services in scripture.

[Mirth1981]

1 Kings 18:26-29

Taking the young bull that was turned over to them, they prepared it and called on Baal from morning to noon, saying, "Answer us, Baal!" But there was no sound, and no one answering. And they hopped around the altar they had prepared.

When it was noon, Elijah taunted them: "Call louder, for he is a god and may be meditating, or may have retired, or may be on a journey. Perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."

They called out louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until blood gushed over them.

Noon passed and they remained in a prophetic state until the time for offering sacrifice. But there was not a sound; no one answered, and no one was listening.

[Mirth1981]

1 Kings 18: 36-38

At the time for offering sacrifice, the prophet Elijah came forward and said, "LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things by your command.

Answer me, LORD! Answer me, that this people may know that you, LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to their senses."

The LORD'S fire came down and consumed the holocaust, wood, stones, and dust, and it lapped up the water in the trench

[Mirth1981]

Yes, it is. And not found in scripture.

Other than in Acts 2, the first infilling with tongues and the Samaritans, who apparently needed the keys Peter possessed, everyone who sought the spirit received it immediately.

Try as I might, I cannot find our altar services in scripture.

I remember the first big Pentecostal crusade I ever went to. It was the first time I saw people falling on the floor and shaking and just an overall "frenzy" type of altar call. I was scared. I remember looking at the people's facial expressions and they looked almost like they were being tortured mentally. I wonder sometimes if we subconsciously feel like we have to put ourselves through this in some sort of penance to God...so that He will accept us. I think it creates an unhealthy view of God if that's the case.

[On The Wheel]

1 Kings 18:26-29

Taking the young bull that was turned over to them, they prepared it and called on Baal from morning to noon, saying, "Answer us, Baal!" But there was no sound, and no one answering. And they hopped around the altar they had prepared.

When it was noon, Elijah taunted them: "Call louder, for he is a god and may be meditating, or may have retired, or may be on a journey. Perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."

They called out louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until blood gushed over them.

Noon passed and they remained in a prophetic state until the time for offering sacrifice. But there was not a sound; no one answered, and no one was listening.

1 Kings 18: 36-38

At the time for offering sacrifice, the prophet Elijah came forward and said, "LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things by your command.

Answer me, LORD! Answer me, that this people may know that you, LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to their senses."

The LORD'S fire came down and consumed the holocaust, wood, stones, and dust, and it lapped up the water in the trench

It looks as if you found an example. Good for you!:ursofunny

[Mirth1981]

My older brother took a long time to get the Holy Ghost. He was one of those people that would "tarry" at the altar long after everyone else had left. He was 14 or so around that time. He was SO HUNGRY.

There would always be a group of people gathered around him...you know the way it goes: one person shouting in his ear, another rubbing his back, yet another shouting in the other ear, others just standing close by watching and praying loudly, and just all fired up. He told me about the worst of these experiences...it was at a district youth camp. The above described melee was taking place, and an unnamed preacher parted the crowd in front of him and laid his hand on his head and PUSHED DOWN (like he was trying to cause him to be "slain in the spirit") My brother said he had to bend his knees and forcefully brace himself to keep from being knocked over...but eventually just had to give in and be pushed down on the floor.

He didn't get the Holy Ghost that night either.

[pelathais]

My older brother took a long time to get the Holy Ghost. He was one of those people that would "tarry" at the altar long after everyone else had left. He was 14 or so around that time. He was SO HUNGRY.

There would always be a group of people gathered around him...you know the way it goes: one person shouting in his ear, another rubbing his back, yet another shouting in the other ear, others just standing close by watching and praying loudly, and just all fired up. He told me about the worst of these experiences...it was at a district youth camp. The above described melee was taking place, and an unnamed preacher parted the crowd in front of him and laid his hand on his head and PUSHED DOWN (like he was trying to cause him to be "slain in the spirit") My brother said he had to bend his knees and forcefully brace himself to keep from being knocked over...but eventually just had to give in and be pushed down on the floor.

He didn't get the Holy Ghost that night either.
What goes through people's minds when they do that? "I'm gonna push that young man straight down to the floor!!! Yup!! ... There! See? He put up a fight but I got him down! Yup!"

[mizpeh]

Yes, it is. And not found in scripture.

Other than in Acts 2, the first infilling with tongues and the Samaritans, who apparently needed the keys Peter possessed, everyone who sought the spirit received it immediately.

Try as I might, I cannot find our altar services in scripture. You're right. We aren't like the early church when it comes to folks getting the Spirit without a struggle. What do you suppose is the difference? And how can we be more apostolic in this regard?

[*AQuietPlace*]

You're right. We aren't like the early church when it comes to folks getting the Spirit without a struggle. What do you suppose is the difference? And how can we be more apostolic in this regard?
Part of it, I think, is that people have begun to expect that you have to 'seek' for a while before you'll get it. So a lot of it is in the expectation.

Other than that, I don't know.

[iceniez]

:thumbsup I didn't expect any zeroes.

I would have put a zero also , did not ask and recieved the Holy Ghost while praying at home . I did not know what it was or what happened . I was speaking in tounges. He lead me to the truth though.

[notofworks]

Testing one, two, three, four. Hello? Is my mic working? Check, check, check. Testing. Is my monitor on? One, two, three, four.

Still looking for that verse where anyone ever "sought" for the Holy Ghost and didn't receive it.

[Sam]

Testing one, two, three, four. Hello? Is my mic working? Check, check, check. Testing. Is my monitor on? One, two, three, four.

Still looking for that verse where anyone ever "sought" for the Holy Ghost and didn't receive it.

Keep looking, it HAS to be in there somewhere.......

Keep reading through the Book of Acts (can't find salvation in any other book according to some) and you'll find that occasion when after a long altar service an Apostle said:

Well, you almost got it.....
You had stammering lips.....
Come back next week and try again.....
Hope the Lord doesn't come before you get it.....

[notofworks]

Keep looking, it HAS to be in there somewhere.......

Keep reading through the Book of Acts (can't find salvation in any other book according to some) and you'll find that occasion when after a long altar service an Apostle said:

Well, you almost got it.....
You had stammering lips.....
Come back next week and try again.....
Hope the Lord doesn't come before you get it.....


Maybe it's in the "Lost Episodes" of Acts. There's gotta be a 3-stepper out there somewhere that can help me figure this out.

"Just let your tongue go"
"Let go"
"Hold on"

Good grief.

[Sam]

Testing one, two, three, four. Hello? Is my mic working? Check, check, check. Testing. Is my monitor on? One, two, three, four.

Still looking for that verse where anyone ever "sought" for the Holy Ghost and didn't receive it.

You're reading the wrong translation.
You gotta go by the "verbal traditional words" which are Spirit and not by the carnal "written words" which were supplied to us by... gasp, choke, shudder, trinitarians about 400 years ago.

In the "verbal traditional words"
Acts 2:37 says, "What must we do to be saved?"
and
Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues."

You can also go to John chapter 3 and find in that "verbal traditional Bible" where Jesus told Nicodemus "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Now, you will find some of these quoting John 3:16 correctly from the KJV but they place a heavy emphasis on the words "should not"
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[On The Wheel]

You're right. We aren't like the early church when it comes to folks getting the Spirit without a struggle. What do you suppose is the difference? And how can we be more apostolic in this regard?

Perhaps we are guilty of directing the "seeker" more toward an experience than a relationship. As a child I remember "seeking" the HG and being afraid I would not get it, which would mean that God had again rejected my petition. It was downright embarrassing!

I am not sure, but my spirit tells me something is drastically wrong.

[mfblume]

People whom I knew that sought it got it. It may have taken longer for some than others, but they got it. Why be "glass is half-empty" about it?

[On The Wheel]

My older brother took a long time to get the Holy Ghost. He was one of those people that would "tarry" at the altar long after everyone else had left. He was 14 or so around that time. He was SO HUNGRY.

There would always be a group of people gathered around him...you know the way it goes: one person shouting in his ear, another rubbing his back, yet another shouting in the other ear, others just standing close by watching and praying loudly, and just all fired up. He told me about the worst of these experiences...it was at a district youth camp. The above described melee was taking place, and an unnamed preacher parted the crowd in front of him and laid his hand on his head and PUSHED DOWN (like he was trying to cause him to be "slain in the spirit") My brother said he had to bend his knees and forcefully brace himself to keep from being knocked over...but eventually just had to give in and be pushed down on the floor.

He didn't get the Holy Ghost that night either.

We don't allow "rubdowns" in our church. Call me Charismatic!

Also, whenever the good folks start "rockin' the seeker" I step in and "stabilize". I'm forced to wonder if this view was the "joy set before him" that Christ saw from Calvary: hungry souls repeatedly begging for salvation like the Prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel.

It bothers me, I must confess.

[mfblume]

We don't allow "rubdowns" in our church. Call me Charismatic!

Also, whenever the good folks start "rockin' the seeker" I step in and "stabilize". I'm forced to wonder if this view was the "joy set before him" that Christ saw from Calvary: hungry souls repeatedly begging for salvation like the Prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel.

It bothers me, I must confess.

Seeking the Holy Ghost is not seeking salvation. I do not look at it like that. If someone is seeking all God desires for them, and they are sincere, they are saved should anything happen to them.

[On The Wheel]

People whom I knew that sought it got it. It may have taken longer for some than others, but they got it. Why be "glass is half-empty" about it?

Because the glass is half empty. Furthermore, if we are truly apostolic in experience and in doctrine, shouldn't what we regard as the very moment of when salvation occurs happen precisely as it did in scripture? It bothers me that a component so central to our salvation theology completely absent from scriptural record.

Nowhere in scripture is there a hint of people coming to God in repentance and leaving the same way they came. Neither are there admonitions to keep seeking the salvation experience, pray through the obstacles until it comes or other such things.

If I am going to be Apostolic, I want things to occur the way things did in the beginning.

[Timmy]

Because the glass is half empty. Furthermore, if we are truly apostolic in experience and in doctrine, shouldn't what we regard as the very moment of when salvation occurs happen precisely as it did in scripture? It bothers me that a component so central to our salvation theology completely absent from scriptural record.

Nowhere in scripture is there a hint of people coming to God in repentance and leaving the same way they came. Neither are there admonitions to keep seeking the salvation experience, pray through the obstacles until it comes or other such things.

If I am going to be Apostolic, I want things to occur the way things did in the beginning.

On the other hand, even an evil human father gives good things to his kids when they ask. How much more would the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask? If you don't get it, you must not have asked. You have not because you ask not. Simple!

[*AQuietPlace*]

People whom I knew that sought it got it. It may have taken longer for some than others, but they got it. Why be "glass is half-empty" about it?
I know many who gave up.

[mfblume]

You're reading the wrong translation.
You gotta go by the "verbal traditional words" which are Spirit and not by the carnal "written words" which were supplied to us by... gasp, choke, shudder, trinitarians about 400 years ago.

In the "verbal traditional words"
Acts 2:37 says, "What must we do to be saved?"

It did refer to being saved. referring to words from Acts 2:38...


Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


That verses says that the words Peter spoke in the previous few verses were concerning HOW TO BE SAVED. Those words, and MORE, were Peter saying how to be saved. Why else would Peter tell them to do certain things after being asked of what to do?

Whether folks like it or not, people are to DO THINGS to be saved. But these are not things that in and of themselves, make is righteous. Until THAT distinction is made, one will never see this point.Cornelius was also TOLD WHAT TO DO by the angel. It regarded salvation? Of course! :)

Act 10:5-6 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: (6) He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.


Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues."

It was with evidence of speaking with tongues whether Acts 2:L38 said it or not.

Referring to the episode in Acts 10, PETER himself said this:

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


And how did it occur?

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


What was Peter referring to in Acts 11?

Act 10:45-46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,


The verses you cite do not have to ADD any words that the rest of the bible adds for us. :)

[tv1a]

I don't pop on a lot, but I have a few thoughts in this topic.

Those who have known me for a number of years, know my success as an altar coach. For about a five year period, I was involved in various capacities with altar coaching with tremendous success. Over 120 in our church with in a number of months were filled with the Holy Ghost.

I've stopped being an active altar coach the past few years. I can go on with the circus environment the Holy Ghost crusades have become. But the main reason I've stopped being a part of the freak show is because God has spoke with me about Biblical repentance. The Bible places more emphasis on repentance than the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Angels rejoice when one comes to repentance. God will is ALL should come to repentance, and other scriptures come to mind. Repentance and the infilling of the Holy Ghost are two independent occurrences. That's why we can hear people speak in tongues but not experience the change their life.

The Bible says it's better for person not to experience the presence of God than to experience it and not be saved. Too many times we get the hooked on the drug, then tell them they have to conform to our way of Christianity for their salvation. We are quick to teach a dress code, but slow to teach about praying, fasting, giving. We are quick to teach about hair, but slow to teach how to overcome sin and temptation, and how to pray to get results. I dare say the reason why this has been normal is because we know more about dress codes and hair styles than about life changing prayer.

There is a lot more about repentance that I could go into, but time and space prevent me from doing that.

People confuse speaking in tongues as the culmination of the salvation process. In reality, speaking in tongues is a small part.

I have won more people to Christ (without compromising my beliefs) who are on fire for Christ in three years than the number of years of getting them to the speak in tongues and dunking them in Jesus name. I have ditched the hideous Search of Truth and other similar literature and taught basic Christianity 101: Prayer, fasting, giving, tearing down strongholds, living an overcoming life. The important stuff of living for Christ. The results? This Sunday we are going to baptize 9 people I mentor. The people I mentor know how to pray. They know how to fast. They know how to give. The people I mentor who have experienced miraculous healings, financial breakthroughs, and family restorations. That's how you keep people in Church.

I still believe the same salvation message I grew up with. I put the emphasis

Skirts, sleeves, and hair won't save anyone. Teach someone how to pray and fast, you will birth a powerful christian instead of a stillborn baby.

[mfblume]

I know many who gave up.

We cannot go by what people experience or do not experience. We have to go by what the Book says. When we start interpreting the bible by experiences people had, we are going astray.

[Timmy]

. . . Those words, and MORE, were Peter saying how to be saved. . . .

Guess we'll never know all the steps needed, since SOME of the words weren't recorded. :lol

[Timmy]

We cannot go by what people experience or do not experience. We have to go by what the Book says. When we start interpreting the bible by experiences people had, we are going astray.

That's right. The Bible is true, whether or not reality goes along with it.

[mfblume]

Guess we'll never know all the steps needed, since SOME of the words weren't recorded. :lol

If you had written the bible, we would all be so safe, since they were so illogical in what they wrote. Half-finished instructions. Whew! Where were YOU??? God made ANOTHER mistake in not have YOU pen the words of Acts instead of Luke.

There's no way that what is recorded was sufficient about being saved, and the further words were expounding what was written.

Timmy, where WERE YOU???

[mfblume]

That's right. The Bible is true, whether or not reality goes along with it.

Read previous post of mine for same application.

[Timmy]

If you had written the bible, we would all be so safe, since they were so illogical in what they wrote. Half-finished instructions. Whew! Where were YOU??? God made ANOTHER mistake in not have YOU pen the words of Acts instead of Luke.

There's no way that what is recorded was sufficient about being saved, and the further words were expounding what was written.

Timmy, where WERE YOU???

:ursofunny

[Sam]

Guess we'll never know all the steps needed, since SOME of the words weren't recorded. :lol

Well, since we have the same Holy Ghost that Peter had as he spoke those "many other words" we can know what those words are. They would have been about bifurcated garments; facial hair on men; any red clothing; sleeve length; a strong prohibition against any open toed shoe style; hair length --long, uncut of course for women and short, cut for men; television (but computers are OK); and a dire warning to watch out for any spurious organization without the letters "U", and "P," and "C" in it.

[Timmy]

Well, since we have the same Holy Ghost that Peter had as he spoke those "many other words" we can know what those words are. They would have been about bifurcated garments; facial hair on men; any red clothing; sleeve length; a strong prohibition against any open toed shoe style; hair length --long, uncut of course for women and short, cut for men; television (but computers are OK); and a dire warning to watch out for any spurious organization without the letters "U", and "P," and "C" in it.

Wow, Sam, you are feeling feisty, lately! :ursofunny

[On The Wheel]

On the other hand, even an evil human father gives good things to his kids when they ask. How much more would the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask? If you don't get it, you must not have asked. You have not because you ask not. Simple!

I never give the children I love anything unless they beg, plead, and have a "gift reception" coach standing by.

















NOT!

[noeticknight]

Question: so the folks who prayed for the Holy Spirit more than once, how did you know when you were filled?


Question: so the precious cancer survivors who've lost their ability to speak, how do they know when they are filled?

I suppose all the devil need do is remove our tongues and victory is his, eh?

[Arphaxad]

I know many who gave up.

I think that if I had not recieved right away I may have given up too. God made it such a real thing for me that there is no way I could deny what happened. I had no knowledge of HG, tongues, or anything, I was just wanting God with all that I was/am. I thank God for His mercy and grace, for if I had to tarry for long I would have had to suffer the ear shouting, palm strikes etc. and may have ended up punching someone in the nose!:bliss


:doggyrun

[notofworks]

It did refer to being saved. referring to words from Acts 2:38...


Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


That verses says that the words Peter spoke in the previous few verses were concerning HOW TO BE SAVED. Those words, and MORE, were Peter saying how to be saved. Why else would Peter tell them to do certain things after being asked of what to do?

Whether folks like it or not, people are to DO THINGS to be saved. But these are not things that in and of themselves, make is righteous. Until THAT distinction is made, one will never see this point.Cornelius was also TOLD WHAT TO DO by the angel. It regarded salvation? Of course! :)

Act 10:5-6 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: (6) He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.




It was with evidence of speaking with tongues whether Acts 2:L38 said it or not.

Referring to the episode in Acts 10, PETER himself said this:

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


And how did it occur?

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


What was Peter referring to in Acts 11?

Act 10:45-46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,


The verses you cite do not have to ADD any words that the rest of the bible adds for us. :)



Yaaaaaawwwwnnn. I just woke up from my snooze. Any luck with that verse yet? I just need to find one single, solitary, flippin' time that someone in the bible "sought for the Holy Ghost" and didn't get it.

Yes, I know I'm :beatdeadhorse but it's just so much fun to see scholars come up empty in defending their flawed beliefs.

[KWSS1976]

Well it seems those in Acts did not ask for it so they did not use the advise in the book of Luke that was spoken of...lol O how I love these holyghost threads....

[KWSS1976]

My wife did ask my son one time at camp if he wanted to go up and ask for the holyghost...yea I had to correct her on that one...

[mizpeh]

Question: so the precious cancer survivors who've lost their ability to speak, how do they know when they are filled?

I suppose all the devil need do is remove our tongues and victory is his, eh?Miracles still happen.

[mizpeh]

Yaaaaaawwwwnnn. I just woke up from my snooze. Any luck with that verse yet? I just need to find one single, solitary, flippin' time that someone in the bible "sought for the Holy Ghost" and didn't get it.

Yes, I know I'm :beatdeadhorse but it's just so much fun to see scholars come up empty in defending their flawed beliefs.What's your point, NOW?

[notofworks]

What's your point, NOW?

Isn't it clear? "Tongues" is a completely different experience than the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Never, ever, anywhere in the bible do we ever find anything as the same planet of what pentecostalism does to people trying to make them speak in tongues, when CLEARLY, not everyone DOES speak in tongues. And then we add "Heaven or hell" to the equation and we just end up abusing people. It's horrifically sad and just plain wrong.

[mfblume]

Yaaaaaawwwwnnn. I just woke up from my snooze. Any luck with that verse yet? I just need to find one single, solitary, flippin' time

Just swear and get it over with. :lol You know you want to. You already did it in your heart, anyway.


that someone in the bible "sought for the Holy Ghost" and didn't get it.

Yes, I know I'm :beatdeadhorse

There's that aggression thing again... :lol

but it's just so much fun to see scholars come up empty in defending their flawed beliefs.

You never showed us where infilling of the Spirit occurs before Baptism of the Spirit.

[noeticknight]

Miracles still happen.


Indeed, I do believe in miracles. However, I believe reality has stretched this doctrine quite thin. Are you really prepared to go around validating everyone’s salvation on whether or not they’ve exhibited “speaking in tongues?” Personally, I refuse to coerce people to produce some outward manifestation of inward faith to prove something that is intimately personal, especially if that means asking them to do the impossible, unless, that is, it is commanded in scripture explicitly. The only justification for such audacity would be the ability to produce solid teaching from the Early Church leaders. Maybe even one verse commanding it would suffice?

I agree with NOW on this one. Imo, “Initial Evidence” has placed an undue emphasis on the sign instead of the giver of the sign. No matter how you slice it, this doctrine borders on usurping the very sovereignty of God, particularly the way it gets played out in many Pentecostal circles. And I say it’s arrogance of cosmic proportions if ultimately incorrect. While I am not ashamed to be labeled a continuationist, I do believe salvation by external evidence tends toward the carnal side, and betrays the core concept of Christianity, which is, “I am loved of Christ, therefore I obey.” This doctrine operates in reverse. We find sincere people reaching out for the effects, instead of experiencing first the cause. As many have already pointed out, where were folks given a rationale to speak or seek tongues in the NT?

Don’t get me wrong, I fully believe in “signs and wonders” as do many others. Keep in mind, however, that what might seem to be “new” revelations of “truth” hidden for centuries, may just be someone’s miscalculation based upon a snapshot of time. Haven’t other brilliant scholarly Christians studied these things also? Why did they arrive at different conclusions? The verdict among the majority is that the doctrine fails basic hermeneutical standards to make it to the next level. After all, it started as a “spiritual experiment” to begin with, and from a man of questionable credentials, who was not as fully persuaded as you are.

In parting, I do commend you for declaring that before proposing doctrine, it must first be considered in light of context and the entirety of scripture, however, I would dare throw in historical facts, sensible reasoning, and the reality of how this bears out in the Christian life. You have connected the dots in Acts, but how do they line up with the big picture?

[mfblume]

Any luck with that verse yet? I just need to find one single, solitary, flippin' time

Let's cut to the chase here. When it comes to what scripture states what conclusions, there are no scriptures that show the million and one hypothetical situations that show what people could have mistakenly done.

There is not going to be a verse showing someone seeking for the Holy Ghost and not getting it since they refused to repent of sin any more than there is going to be a verse showing someone people coming to Jesus for healing and not getting it because they refused to let go of witchcraft. It's totally redundant to ask for such a verse. It's folly to seek for proofs of such things in the bible. The bible has enough to say about what TO DO, without having to show all the million wrong paths people may TRY To take and be unable to take.

Notofworks, do you think there is ANY OBEDIENCE ON OUR PART required to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what obedience is there?

[mfblume]

Indeed, I do believe in miracles. However, I believe reality has stretched this doctrine quite thin. Are you really prepared to go around validating everyone’s salvation on whether or not they’ve exhibited “speaking in tongues?” Personally, I refuse to coerce people to produce some outward manifestation of inward faith to prove something that is intimately personal, especially if that means asking them to do the impossible, unless, that is, it is commanded in scripture explicitly. The only justification for such audacity would be the ability to produce solid teaching from the Early Church leaders. Maybe even one verse commanding it would suffice?

I agree in principle. I believe tongues is the initial evidence of the Holy Ghost. Nothing anyone has said has veered me from that persuasion. But at the same time, abuse of that belief and how some people have in turn ABUSED PEOPLE with that doctrine is no reason to say the doctrine is wrong. I say that to say this: I am not going to judge a person's salvation either way. EITHER WAY! People mock the believe that tongues is evidence of the Spirit baptism in a teaching that demands Spirit baptism for salvation, as judging people, and yet there is the judgment of no need for such a thing as well. Those who usually criticize another's view of judgment for salvation are judges, themselves, on the other end of the spectrum. They insist such and such is all that is needed for salvation.

Why do people have to wind up saying lack of THIS or THAT makes for hell? Why not preach what the bible shows people preaching, leave hell out of it where the bible leaves hell out of it, mention hell where the bible mentions hell, and leave people in the hands of God to sort out later?

It seems some people JUST HAVE TO SAY people will go to hell if __________. Priscilla and Aquila showed the way more perfectly to Apollos. We read them saying no words about hell to Apollos. Yes, I believe in Acts 2:38 salvation and tongues as initial evidence of the Spirit, but I am not going to proclaim hell to anyone who does otherwise when Peter did not even do so in Acts 2. Why do people think they have to say "...or you'll go to hell?" And for the onesteppers, do not think every three stepper is a harsh hell hollering preacher either.

:)

[notofworks]

Just swear and get it over with. :lol You know you want to. You already did it in your heart, anyway.

••The word "Flippin' " is from Napoleon Dynamite. If I wanted to cuss, I would.

There's that aggression thing again... :lol

••I agree, but "Passive" is nowhere to be found.

You never showed us where infilling of the Spirit occurs before Baptism of the Spirit.

Well, I don't necessarily concede that the "Infilling" and the "Baptism" are any different...at all....but yes, of course I have. I've quoted the three main verses repeatedly on this forum and one of them is in my signature.

[notofworks]

Notofworks, do you think there is ANY OBEDIENCE ON OUR PART required to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what obedience is there?

That's not the argument, here. We're talking about someone "trying" to "get the Holy Ghost" and coming up empty. Look, come on Mike, if we're gonna run people through the salvation wringer repeatedly, forcing them to crawl to the altar and beg for something, and get rejected by God for reason that, apparently, only He knows, we ought to, at least, have some bible for it.

That's all I'm asking. Just find some scripture for it. But you know it, and I know it, and Billy Graham, and D.L. Moody, and Billy Sunday, and Walter Martin, and Daffy Duck, knows you CAN'T. That's just the absolute bottom line.

So pray for people all you want and have the finest strategy for "Praying them through to the Holy Ghost". And EVERY SINGLE TIME they come up empty, something just happened that NEVER.....ONE TIME, took place in the bible.

[Isaiah]

There's no option for zero...

When I got the Holy Ghost, I didn't even know what it was. I just felt conviction and went to the altar crying and praying. Since I didn't know what the Holy Ghost was at the time because my family had just started going to the UPC church, I didn't know to ask for it.

I would have to agree. I didnt know anything about the Holy Spirit or the definite sign of recieving such authentic transcendance. I simply walked up to an altar in tears after much conviction reigned upon my heart and there the Lord met me and filled me. "... Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues..." (Acts 19:6). Thinking about the first time the Lord filled me of sure does bring much joy to my heart. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5). "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (Isaiah 57:15). Of a surety the Lord is Good. :thumbsup

[mfblume]

That's not the argument, here. We're talking about someone "trying" to "get the Holy Ghost" and coming up empty. Look, come on Mike, if we're gonna run people through the salvation wringer repeatedly, forcing them to crawl to the altar and beg for something, and get rejected by God for reason that, apparently, only He knows, we ought to, at least, have some bible for it.

That's all I'm asking. Just find some scripture for it. But you know it, and I know it, and Billy Graham, and D.L. Moody, and Billy Sunday, and Walter Martin, and Daffy Duck, knows you CAN'T. That's just the absolute bottom line.

So pray for people all you want and have the finest strategy for "Praying them through to the Holy Ghost". And EVERY SINGLE TIME they come up empty, something just happened that NEVER.....ONE TIME, took place in the bible.

Like I said, there is no scripture that shows the million and one variables that could be holding people back from receiving from God. The world could not contain the books required to show all the variables.

The fact is lack of repentance keeps people back. It did me. You can interpret that any other way that allows you to shoot that thought down, but it is only lack of repentance that keeps people back from receiving anything from God. I think it falls under the category of asking amiss. There is a state of being which does not consciously seek to sin that is required for reception of the Spirit. Do you honestly think God will give His Spirit to someone just because they ask even though they consciously want to sin?

And the reason I raised the issue of OBEDIENCE is because it is associated. Consciously seeking to sin holds one back from the Spirit and that is a matter of obedience. To know where you are coming from, do you believe obedience is necessary to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what is the obedience?

[mizpeh]

Like I said, there is no scripture that shows the million and one variables that could be holding people back from receiving from God. The world could not contain the books required to show all the variables.

The fact is lack of repentance keeps people back. It did me. You can interpret that any other way that allows you to shoot that thought down, but it is only lack of repentance that keeps people back from receiving anything from God. I think it falls under the category of asking amiss. There is a state of being which does not consciously seek to sin that is required for reception of the Spirit. Do you honestly think God will give His Spirit to someone just because they ask even though they consciously want to sin?

And the reason I raised the issue of OBEDIENCE is because it is associated. Consciously seeking to sin holds one back from the Spirit and that is a matter of obedience. To know where you are coming from, do you believe obedience is necessary to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what is the obedience?I think there are other things that may hold someone back from receiving the Holy Spirit.

Distractions. You have to have your mind on God...one to one communication with Him to receive anything or for Him to receive your prayers. All the commotion that goes on at the altar can be very distracting. Instead of talking to God, the seeker is listening to those around him.

Doubt. The slightest doubt can hinder a seeker from receiving the Spirit, afterall the we receive the Spirit by faith.

Commitment. There can't be any half heartedness. The seeker has to be seeking for the right reasons.

There may be other reasons.

[Timmy]

Like I said, there is no scripture that shows the million and one variables that could be holding people back from receiving from God. The world could not contain the books required to show all the variables.

. . .

So, it's really that complicated? God has a whole slew of requirements (call them variables, if you like) and He's not even going to tell us what they all are?

Weird.

:heeheehee

[mfblume]

So, it's really that complicated? God has a whole slew of requirements (call them variables, if you like) and He's not even going to tell us what they all are?

Weird.

:heeheehee

You distorted what I said again!?

lol

The bible says what to do. Repent, ask the Lord for the Holy Spirit. And if one refuses to repent, then guess what. We are not going to read of people seeking the Spirit while willing to indulge into sin, or any number of possible variables, when the bible said to repent and then ask for the Spirit.

[mfblume]

I think there are other things that may hold someone back from receiving the Holy Spirit.

Agreed. Who knows how many?

Distractions. You have to have your mind on God...one to one communication with Him to receive anything or for Him to receive your prayers. All the commotion that goes on at the altar can be very distracting. Instead of talking to God, the seeker is listening to those around him.
there is lack of faith. One who wavers in faith will nto expect to get anything from God, James 1 said.

Doubt. The slightest doubt can hinder a seeker from receiving the Spirit, afterall the we receive the Spirit by faith.
Right.



Commitment. There can't be any half heartedness. The seeker has to be seeking for the right reasons.

There may be other reasons.

[Timmy]

You distorted what I said again!?

lol

The bible says what to do. Repent, ask the Lord for the Holy Spirit. And if one refuses to repent, then guess what. We are not going to read of people seeking the Spirit while willing to indulge into sin, or any number of possible variables, when the bible said to repent and then ask for the Spirit.

Yes, I see that your post included this:

. . . but it is only lack of repentance that keeps people back from receiving anything from God.

The slew of variables you mention: are they the many ways that a lack of repentance might actually occur?

Now, if you really mean what you say above, then we must conclude that every instance of someone asking and not receiving is an instance of someone not repenting. And by that you mean that they are willing to indulge in sin. This is no distortion. It's the conclusion from what you actually said. Unless you didn't quite mean that. Feel free to clarify.

[mfblume]

Yes, I see that your post included this:



The slew of variables you mention: are they the many ways that a lack of repentance might actually occur?

Now, if you really mean what you say above, then we must conclude that every instance of someone asking and not receiving is an instance of someone not repenting. And by that you mean that they are willing to indulge in sin. This is no distortion. It's the conclusion from what you actually said. Unless you didn't quite mean that. Feel free to clarify.

It's ONE of the reasons people do not receive the Spirit. I already amen'd someone else who said lack of faith is another reason. There are more reasons.

[Timmy]

It's ONE of the reasons people do not receive the Spirit. I already amen'd someone else who said lack of faith is another reason. There are more reasons.

OK. So the "only" in what I quoted was a slip of the keyboard?

[notofworks]

Like I said, there is no scripture that shows the million and one variables that could be holding people back from receiving from God.

••But it never happened in the bible

The world could not contain the books required to show all the variables.

••But it never happened in the bible

The fact is lack of repentance keeps people back.

••But it didn't happen in the bible

It did me.

••But not to anyone in the bible

You can interpret that any other way that allows you to shoot that thought down, but it is only lack of repentance that keeps people back from receiving anything from God.

••But it never happened in the bible.

I think it falls under the category of asking amiss. There is a state of being which does not consciously seek to sin that is required for reception of the Spirit.

••But there's no record of that anywhere in the bible.

Do you honestly think God will give His Spirit to someone just because they ask

••YES!!!! Let you quote you, THE BIBLE...."If you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him." Luke 11:13 NLT

even though they consciously want to sin?

••WE ALL WANT TO SIN!!!! Romans 7!!!

And the reason I raised the issue of OBEDIENCE is because it is associated.

••But it's not in the bible.

Consciously seeking to sin holds one back from the Spirit

••So you're saying that everyone in the bible that received the Holy Spirit had ZERO record of "seeking to sin", but now suddenly, all these thousands of people that "tarry for the Holy Ghost but don't get it" DO seek to sin? That's absurd. You're so stuck in your legalistic theology that you can't understand all the verses you've memorized.

and that is a matter of obedience. To know where you are coming from, do you believe obedience is necessary to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what is the obedience?

I believe that if I seek, I find. Period. It's the promise of the Father to His children. It's no more complicated than that.

[notofworks]

I think there are other things that may hold someone back from receiving the Holy Spirit.

Distractions. You have to have your mind on God...one to one communication with Him to receive anything or for Him to receive your prayers. All the commotion that goes on at the altar can be very distracting. Instead of talking to God, the seeker is listening to those around him.

Doubt. The slightest doubt can hinder a seeker from receiving the Spirit, afterall the we receive the Spirit by faith.

Commitment. There can't be any half heartedness. The seeker has to be seeking for the right reasons.

There may be other reasons.

Oh, undoubtedly there are multitudes of reasons. I'm sure we can make up all kinds of things.

Ok, so now we have:

1) Seeking to sin;
2) Distractions;
3) Doubt;
4) Lack of commitment;

Anyone care to add to this non-biblical list?

[proudfather]

I believe that if I seek, I find. Period. It's the promise of the Father to His children. It's no more complicated than that.

Okay, here we go:

You keep saying, "It's not in the Bible." Holy Ghost seekers in the New Testament had no reason to doubt the Holy Spirit experience, because they had never experienced it before. They were all curious, and once they were willing to submit, they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2: they looked at one another and said, "What meaneth this?" They had no idea what the Holy Spirit was. After Peter explained what was going on, they sincerely wanted to receive the same gift. "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Acts 10: Would you deny that the Gentile believers didn't have the faintest idea what the Holy Spirit was before Peter came? Again, they were sincere seekers.

Acts 19: "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." Again, they were ignorant of the experience, but they were sincere seekers.

Now, look at Acts 8. Philip preached and baptized many, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until Peter and John laid hands on them. Would you agree that there was a lapse in time between Philip preaching and the believers receiving the Holy Ghost? In this instance, we don’t even read of doubt occurring in their hearts, and yet, they did not receive the Holy Ghost immediately. How do you explain this?

[mizpeh]

Oh, undoubtedly there are multitudes of reasons. I'm sure we can make up all kinds of things.

Ok, so now we have:

1) Seeking to sin;
2) Distractions;
3) Doubt;
4) Lack of commitment;

Anyone care to add to this non-biblical list?

I don't know what you mean by "seeking to sin" but the other three (2, 3, and 4) are hinderances to prayer so why would you think they would not be hinderances to receiving the baptism of the Spirit, afterall you have to pray to receive the Spirit. (and by lack of commitment, I mean being halfhearted or lukewarm ).

Nonbiblical??...would you like me to provide some scriptures?

[mizpeh]

Okay, here we go:

You keep saying, "It's not in the Bible." Holy Ghost seekers in the New Testament had no reason to doubt the Holy Spirit experience, because they had never experienced it before. They were all curious, and once they were willing to submit, they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2: they looked at one another and said, "What meaneth this?" They had no idea what the Holy Spirit was. After Peter explained what was going on, they sincerely wanted to receive the same gift. "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Acts 10: Would you deny that the Gentile believers didn't have the faintest idea what the Holy Spirit was before Peter came? Again, they were sincere seekers.

Acts 19: "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." Again, they were ignorant of the experience, but they were sincere seekers.

Now, look at Acts 8. Philip preached and baptized many, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until Peter and John laid hands on them. Would you agree that there was a lapse in time between Philip preaching and the believers receiving the Holy Ghost? In this instance, we don’t even read of doubt occurring in their hearts, and yet, they did not receive the Holy Ghost immediately. How do you explain this?The Holy Spirit is not given at faith. You have to ask for the Holy Spirit to come into your life.



It can be as simple as repenting of your sins and asking Jesus to come into your heart.

[mfblume]

All the statements BUT IT'S NOT IN THE BIBLE mean nothing, since there are many things not in the bible. lol Like I said, all the variables people could have as reasons for sin are NOT IN THE BIBLE, either.

To know where you are coming from, do you believe obedience is necessary to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what is the obedience?
I believe that if I seek, I find. Period. It's the promise of the Father to His children. It's no more complicated than that.

So asking is the obedience?

Generally speaking, would you say it is correct or incorrect that one must be in obedience in order to get the Holy Ghost? is that what you are saying by asking, or would you not consider that obedience?

[mfblume]

OK. So the "only" in what I quoted was a slip of the keyboard?

It was "ONLY" in contrast distinctly to what I said n.o.w. might have distorted my explanation to mean other than the true explanation I meant. I did not use the term to denote no other reasons at all.

[Timmy]

It was "ONLY" in contrast distinctly to what I said n.o.w. might have distorted my explanation to mean other than the true explanation I meant. I did not use the term to denote no other reasons at all.

OK.

I'm still not sure what you are referring to as "the million and one variables that could be holding people back from receiving from God." Can you give some examples? Other that what has already been mentioned, I mean: not repenting, distractions, doubt, commitment.

And I'm not sure, if the Bible does give you the instructions on how to receive, how there could be any more "variables" than merely not following those instructions. If the Bible has (say) five things to do, how can there be more than five possible reasons for not receiving?

[proudfather]

OK.

I'm still not sure what you are referring to as "the million and one variables that could be holding people back from receiving from God." Can you give some examples? Other that what has already been mentioned, I mean: not repenting, distractions, doubt, commitment.

And I'm not sure, if the Bible does give you the instructions on how to receive, how there could be any more "variables" than merely not following those instructions. If the Bible has (say) five things to do, how can there be more than five possible reasons for not receiving?

If we are to only obey what the Bible says, period, then this would be a messed up world. There are some aspects of life that require common sense. For instance, there is nothing in the Bible that says, "Child porn is a sin". At least, I can't find it anyway.

When God gave the law to the children of Israel, they still needed judges to hear the cases of the people. Shouldn't the law be enough? Yes, additional teaching is required, because the law doesn't CLEARLY deal with every situation.

My point is this, we can't expect to find EVERY little detail in the Bible. However, foundation can be found in the Bible. We know that we shouldn't smoke because the word of God tell us that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost and so on.

Also, would you say that the 120 in the upper room were seeking after God? Their Holy Ghost experience didn't happen right away. All they knew was that Jesus had told them to "tarry at Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high". It didn't happen quickly, but they were seeking that power, wouldn't you agree?

[mfblume]

If we are to only obey what the Bible says, period, then this would be a messed up world. There are some aspects of life that require common sense. For instance, there is nothing in the Bible that says, "Child porn is a sin". At least, I can't find it anyway.

When God gave the law to the children of Israel, they still needed judges to hear the cases of the people. Shouldn't the law be enough? Yes, additional teaching is required, because the law doesn't CLEARLY deal with every situation.

My point is this, we can't expect to find EVERY little detail in the Bible. However, foundation can be found in the Bible. We know that we shouldn't smoke because the word of God tell us that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost and so on.

Also, would you say that the 120 in the upper room were seeking after God. Their Holy Ghost experience didn't happen right away. All they knew was that Jesus had told them to "tarry at Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high". It didn't happen quickly, but they were seeking that power, wouldn't you agree?

I could not have said it better. :thumbsup

[proudfather]

Okay, here we go:

You keep saying, "It's not in the Bible." Holy Ghost seekers in the New Testament had no reason to doubt the Holy Spirit experience, because they had never experienced it before. They were all curious, and once they were willing to submit, they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2: they looked at one another and said, "What meaneth this?" They had no idea what the Holy Spirit was. After Peter explained what was going on, they sincerely wanted to receive the same gift. "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Acts 10: Would you deny that the Gentile believers didn't have the faintest idea what the Holy Spirit was before Peter came? Again, they were sincere seekers.

Acts 19: "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." Again, they were ignorant of the experience, but they were sincere seekers.

Now, look at Acts 8. Philip preached and baptized many, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until Peter and John laid hands on them. Would you agree that there was a lapse in time between Philip preaching and the believers receiving the Holy Ghost? In this instance, we don’t even read of doubt occurring in their hearts, and yet, they did not receive the Holy Ghost immediately. How do you explain this?


I do believe it's time to pull a notofworks stunt here.

Hello?...one...two...three...is this thing on?

Still waiting for a response...

[mfblume]

Okay, here we go:

You keep saying, "It's not in the Bible." Holy Ghost seekers in the New Testament had no reason to doubt the Holy Spirit experience, because they had never experienced it before. They were all curious, and once they were willing to submit, they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2: they looked at one another and said, "What meaneth this?" They had no idea what the Holy Spirit was. After Peter explained what was going on, they sincerely wanted to receive the same gift. "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Acts 10: Would you deny that the Gentile believers didn't have the faintest idea what the Holy Spirit was before Peter came? Again, they were sincere seekers.

Acts 19: "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." Again, they were ignorant of the experience, but they were sincere seekers.

Now, look at Acts 8. Philip preached and baptized many, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until Peter and John laid hands on them. Would you agree that there was a lapse in time between Philip preaching and the believers receiving the Holy Ghost? In this instance, we don’t even read of doubt occurring in their hearts, and yet, they did not receive the Holy Ghost immediately. How do you explain this?I do believe it's time to pull a notofworks stunt here.

Hello?...one...two...three...is this thing on?

Still waiting for a response...

Whoa! Good points!

[notofworks]

I don't know what you mean by "seeking to sin" but the other three (2, 3, and 4) are hinderances to prayer so why would you think they would not be hinderances to receiving the baptism of the Spirit, afterall you have to pray to receive the Spirit. (and by lack of commitment, I mean being halfhearted or lukewarm ).

Nonbiblical??...would you like me to provide some scriptures?

Yes, I would love that. I'd would love to see where doubt, distractions, and lack of commitment prevented anyone in the New Testament from receiving the Holy Spirit.

And "Seeking to sin" Mike Blume's non-biblical reason people don't get the Holy Ghost.

[notofworks]

]All the statements BUT IT'S NOT IN THE BIBLE mean nothing,[/B]



WOW!!!!!!!!!!

[mfblume]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

Taking that out of context, as you do with the bible, makes anything look silly. lol

[notofworks]

Okay, here we go:

You keep saying, "It's not in the Bible." Holy Ghost seekers in the New Testament had no reason to doubt the Holy Spirit experience, because they had never experienced it before. They were all curious, and once they were willing to submit, they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2: they looked at one another and said, "What meaneth this?" They had no idea what the Holy Spirit was. After Peter explained what was going on, they sincerely wanted to receive the same gift. "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Acts 10: Would you deny that the Gentile believers didn't have the faintest idea what the Holy Spirit was before Peter came? Again, they were sincere seekers.

Acts 19: "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." Again, they were ignorant of the experience, but they were sincere seekers.

Now, look at Acts 8. Philip preached and baptized many, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until Peter and John laid hands on them. Would you agree that there was a lapse in time between Philip preaching and the believers receiving the Holy Ghost? In this instance, we don’t even read of doubt occurring in their hearts, and yet, they did not receive the Holy Ghost immediately. How do you explain this?


None of this says that anyone was "seeking" the Holy Ghost, as in, trying to speak in tongues but not being able. You might as well have quoted the book of Hezekiah, chapter 48, verse 11.

[proudfather]

None of this says that anyone was "seeking" the Holy Ghost, as in, trying to speak in tongues but not being able. You might as well have quoted the book of Hezekiah, chapter 48, verse 11.

I guess you didn't read my second post. In Acts 2, Jesus told His followers, "Tarry ye at Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high."

The 120 in the upper room didn't receive this power quickly. Would you say that they were seeking that power?

[mfblume]

:bump


So asking is the obedience?

Generally speaking, would you say it is correct or incorrect that one must be in obedience in order to get the Holy Ghost? is that what you are saying by asking, or would you not consider that obedience?

[notofworks]

If we are to only obey what the Bible says, period, then this would be a messed up world. There are some aspects of life that require common sense. For instance, there is nothing in the Bible that says, "Child porn is a sin". At least, I can't find it anyway.

When God gave the law to the children of Israel, they still needed judges to hear the cases of the people. Shouldn't the law be enough? Yes, additional teaching is required, because the law doesn't CLEARLY deal with every situation.

My point is this, we can't expect to find EVERY little detail in the Bible. However, foundation can be found in the Bible. We know that we shouldn't smoke because the word of God tell us that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost and so on.

Also, would you say that the 120 in the upper room were seeking after God? Their Holy Ghost experience didn't happen right away. All they knew was that Jesus had told them to "tarry at Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high". It didn't happen quickly, but they were seeking that power, wouldn't you agree?



Wow.....when the bible thumpers can't find a verse to match their heresy, suddenly the bible doesn't count. Amazing.

Look, this isn't that difficult....the bible does NOT give any precedent for someone "seeking" the Holy Ghost. Period. Even more so, it does not provide any precedent that someone "sought" the Holy Ghost and didn't get it...or more accurately, Him.

Luke 11 is very basic and not difficult to understand. Strong's Concordance isn't needed, no Greek lexicons are necessary, for it just simply says, anyone who asks for the Holy Spirit, receives it. If......IF.......any person EVER goes to the altar and "seeks for the Holy Ghost" and doesn't get the Him, then Jesus was lying in Luke 11.

[notofworks]

I guess you didn't read my second post. In Acts 2, Jesus told His followers, "Tarry ye at Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high."

The 120 in the upper room didn't receive this power quickly. Would you say that they were seeking that power?

Hold your horses...I can only get to one heretical post at a time.

[mfblume]

None of this says that anyone was "seeking" the Holy Ghost, as in, trying to speak in tongues but not being able. You might as well have quoted the book of Hezekiah, chapter 48, verse 11.

What you are regularly missing is the context of these points we are making. Put down the straw and the A.D.D. for a minute, and get what we are saying.

Proudfather is saying that the way YOU believe in the Holy Ghost requires no tongues or anything, and such people should have gotten it before John and Peter came along in Acts 8. But it distinctly says they did not get it beforehand.

[notofworks]

Taking that out of context, as you do with the bible, makes anything look silly. lol


Take it out of context? How is that possible when I simply push the "Quote button"?

[Timmy]

If we are to only obey what the Bible says, period, then this would be a messed up world. There are some aspects of life that require common sense. For instance, there is nothing in the Bible that says, "Child porn is a sin". At least, I can't find it anyway.

When God gave the law to the children of Israel, they still needed judges to hear the cases of the people. Shouldn't the law be enough? Yes, additional teaching is required, because the law doesn't CLEARLY deal with every situation.

My point is this, we can't expect to find EVERY little detail in the Bible. However, foundation can be found in the Bible. We know that we shouldn't smoke because the word of God tell us that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost and so on.

There is a difference between laws/commands/regulations and asking for the Holy Spirit (or for anything else, really). Sure, some common sense is needed for determining whether certain acts are sinful or not (just don't use too much common sense, like I do, or you might reach the "wrong" conclusion about certain things! :lol), but it doesn't make any sense to apply that principle to this matter of receiving the Holy Spirit. If the Bible says "do this, this, and this, and that will happen", how could common sense possibly (legitimately) add anything to the list of requirements?


Also, would you say that the 120 in the upper room were seeking after God? Their Holy Ghost experience didn't happen right away. All they knew was that Jesus had told them to "tarry at Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high". It didn't happen quickly, but they were seeking that power, wouldn't you agree?

Doesn't say how long it took, but OK. But we have some instructions in that famous verse, Acts 2:38. Repent and be baptized. That's what you do. Then you will get the gift. That's what God does.

Any other instructions? What about asking? Well, that is mentioned by Jesus, in his comparison of evil human fathers and the Heavenly Father. I don't think He meant to imply that if we ask the Father, we'll have to wait a long time, or won't receive what we ask for at all.

[proudfather]

Hold your horses...I can only get to one heretical post at a time.

:toofunny

[mfblume]

Take it out of context? How is that possible when I simply push the "Quote button"?

You did not quote the qualifier for my words which make your accusation of "WOW" look ridiculous. . :lol You just stop reading at a certain point, as you do with the bible, and then do not look to see if your paradigm is what is being discussed or something totally different. Your mannerism reminds me of how Churchill had to deal with the culprit who asked something similar to asking him if he still beat his wife, yes or no, with no other answers. The truth is you cannot answer YES OR NO, when YOU NEVER DID BEAT YOUR WIFE. You have to read the context of what I said.

[proudfather]

Any other instructions? What about asking? Well, that is mentioned by Jesus, in his comparison of evil human fathers and the Heavenly Father. I don't think He meant to imply that if we ask the Father, we'll have to wait a long time, or won't receive what we ask for at all.[/QUOTE]

Matthew 15:22-28 (King James Version)

22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


Would you say that she asked more than once? :)

[proudfather]

Wow.....when the bible thumpers can't find a verse to match their heresy, suddenly the bible doesn't count. Amazing.

Look, this isn't that difficult....the bible does NOT give any precedent for someone "seeking" the Holy Ghost. Period. Even more so, it does not provide any precedent that someone "sought" the Holy Ghost and didn't get it...or more accurately, Him.

Luke 11 is very basic and not difficult to understand. Strong's Concordance isn't needed, no Greek lexicons are necessary, for it just simply says, anyone who asks for the Holy Spirit, receives it. If......IF.......any person EVER goes to the altar and "seeks for the Holy Ghost" and doesn't get the Him, then Jesus was lying in Luke 11.

Haha. I love how you pick out certain quotes and ignore the rest. It's too funny.

[deltaguitar]

I finally gave up. I started playing guitar so I wouldn't have to deal with all the going to the altar stuff.

[Timmy]

Any other instructions? What about asking? Well, that is mentioned by Jesus, in his comparison of evil human fathers and the Heavenly Father. I don't think He meant to imply that if we ask the Father, we'll have to wait a long time, or won't receive what we ask for at all.

Matthew 15:22-28 (King James Version)

22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


Would you say that she asked more than once? :)

Yes. Hey, nobody ever said the Bible was consistent and had no contradictions! Uh. Wait. Never mind.

[notofworks]

I finally gave up. I started playing guitar so I wouldn't have to deal with all the going to the altar stuff.

Poor guy....now you have to go through life without having the Holy Spirit in your life. That's too bad, I guess. What's wrong with you, anyway? Talk to Mike...he may be able to help you identify the sin you still have in your life.

[notofworks]

What you are regularly missing is the context of these points we are making. Put down the straw and the A.D.D. for a minute, and get what we are saying.

Proudfather is saying that the way YOU believe in the Holy Ghost requires no tongues or anything, and such people should have gotten it before John and Peter came along in Acts 8. But it distinctly says they did not get it beforehand.


I suppose, Mike, all you can offer is accusing me of having A.D.D., straw something-or-others, or telling me that it's a messed up if we only obey the bible, or whatever it was you said.

I'm still just looking for an instance where someone "sought for the Holy Ghost", in the New Testament, and didn't get it.

I may have to take a nap. This isn't getting anywhere.

[notofworks]

Haha. I love how you pick out certain quotes and ignore the rest. It's too funny.


Ok, so explain this:

Zechariah 3:8 says, "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH."

How do you explain that??

[jfrog]

There is no biblical precedent on asking God for the Holy Spirit. By Peter, God promised the Holy Ghost to all those that repented and were baptized, even to their children and to those afar off and to as many as God would call.

I do not believe that Peter was a liar nor do I believe that God cannot keep his promises. So, if someone repents and is baptized and doesn't receive the Holy Ghost the only biblical reason someone would not receive the Holy Ghost is that God did not call them. If God has called them and if God is able to keep his promises then that person will receive the Holy Ghost eventually.

[Jeffrey]

There is no biblical precedent on asking God for the Holy Spirit. By Peter, God promised the Holy Ghost to all those that repented and were baptized, even to their children and to those afar off and to as many as God would call.

I do not believe that Peter was a liar nor do I believe that God cannot keep his promises. So, if someone repents and is baptized and doesn't receive the Holy Ghost the only biblical reason someone would not receive the Holy Ghost is that God did not call them. If God has called them and if God is able to keep his promises then that person will receive the Holy Ghost eventually.

Peter refers to Spirit Baptism, John refers to Spirit indwelling.

[NotforSale]

If we are to only obey what the Bible says, period, then this would be a messed up world. There are some aspects of life that require common sense. For instance, there is nothing in the Bible that says, "Child porn is a sin". At least, I can't find it anyway.

When God gave the law to the children of Israel, they still needed judges to hear the cases of the people. Shouldn't the law be enough? Yes, additional teaching is required, because the law doesn't CLEARLY deal with every situation.

My point is this, we can't expect to find EVERY little detail in the Bible. However, foundation can be found in the Bible. We know that we shouldn't smoke because the word of God tell us that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost and so on.

Also, would you say that the 120 in the upper room were seeking after God? Their Holy Ghost experience didn't happen right away. All they knew was that Jesus had told them to "tarry at Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high". It didn't happen quickly, but they were seeking that power, wouldn't you agree?

This is the type of assumption I believed and taught for years. You smoke, you sin, because of the health ramifications to our bodies (temple). After time, we have seen an interesting transition within our movement. Apostolics love to eat, adding to the number one health problem in this Country.

The issue of smoking is nothing more than a diversion, hiding the sins we have and do within the Church. In fact, this has caused many to question our theories and strait forward stances on things. We tell people to stop smoking, while we die from over eating. This video is to the point with the facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM-rZm-ilFA&feature=player_embedded

The issue of receiving the Holy Ghost is also part of this problem. We have told people for years, "It's because you SMOKE. It's because you SIN. This is why you don't receive the Spirit." Then we go out to McDonalds and fill our bodies with poison, dancing around the person who just spoke in tongues at tonights service by giving them a "Super Size" meal.

Religion has always done this. We justify the ends without the means. We have these horrible gaps in our supposable “Truths”, and we dodge the bullet of the blatant facts by running around in circles with an old concept, while ignoring the monkey (failure, sin, addiction) on our back.

Next up; Anti-Depressants, Narcotics, and the other little buggers (pills) in our medicine cabinets. We tell people, "Don't drink wine!", while reaching into our vast array of addicting and mind altering drugs that destroy the body and mind.

[notofworks]

Peter refers to Spirit Baptism, John refers to Spirit indwelling.


And you're sure there's a difference?

[Jeffrey]

And you're sure there's a difference?

Pretty sure.

Those who don't, see the Spirit in a one-dimensional way. They don't understand the Spirit's unique role in calling/drawing, regeneration, sanctification, empowerment, interceding on our behalf, prophecy and other charismata, etc.

This one-dimensional view short-circuits and limits the Holy Spirit. He's active from the beginning (calling) until the end (bodily resurrection). Many, when they read "Spirit" think crisis experience accompanied by tongues. When they see "walk in the Spirit" they picture a man walking while talking in tongues :) Well, maybe not that dramatic, but pretty darn close.

[jfrog]

Peter refers to Spirit Baptism, John refers to Spirit indwelling.

That is part of my point Jeffery. Peter said the promise of Spirit Baptism hinged on two things. Repentance and Baptism. That was all.

[mfblume]

I suppose, Mike, all you can offer is accusing me of having A.D.D., straw something-or-others, or telling me that it's a messed up if we only obey the bible, or whatever it was you said.

I'm still just looking for an instance where someone "sought for the Holy Ghost", in the New Testament, and didn't get it.

I may have to take a nap. This isn't getting anywhere.

No, you are not going to answer my question about obedience. But you expect us to answer all your questions when in reality we have so far. You just refuse to read what we are saying. To say that we have to provide you with a verse showing people asking of the Spirit and not getting it is a moot request. I explained why. There are too many variables that if the bible di list them, the world could not contain them. As proudfather said, you will not find the bible speak about need to not smoke dope or need to not look at porn. There are too many things TO NOT DO that the bible simply tells us what TO DO.

But you will not listen to that explanation and keep your finger in your ears .

:lalala

Meanwhile you can say that I know a lot of the bible and do not understand any of it, and that I often engage in self-satisfying discussions about the bible, and complain when someone says you have A.D.D.

Hypocrisy..

[Jeffrey]

That is part of my point Jeffery. Peter said the promise of Spirit Baptism hinged on two things. Repentance and Baptism. That was all.

I agree. But I'm not even sure he said it "hinged" nor that what he said was formulaic.

[mfblume]

There is no scripture that specifies a difference between Spirit baptism and Spirit indwelling. Show me where it is.

Who was it -- Jfrog, Jeffrey (cannot recall, apologies to the one who did not say it) -- who said that Acts 2 had BOTH indwelling and baptism happen at once, when I showed that disciples referred to Acts 2 and Acts 10 as reception, baptism, infilling, outpouring? That cannot be proved.

But Occam's Razor says they are one and the same experience if we research the issue, as I proposed on another thread about the same issue.

[Jeffrey]

There is no scripture that specifies a difference between Spirit baptism and Spirit indwelling. Show me where it is.

Who was it -- Jfrog, Jeffrey (cannot recall, apologies to the one who did not say it) -- who said that Acts 2 had BOTH indwelling and baptism happen at once, when I showed that disciples referred to Acts 2 and Acts 10 as reception, baptism, infilling, outpouring? That cannot be proved.

But Occam's Razor says they are one and the same experience if we research the issue, as I proposed on another thread about the same issue.

There's an old thread "Salvation and the Spirit" that goes into this topic at length.

The scripture may not have a didactic treatment in broad-form of the Spirit, but we see it active in scriptures in various ways. The Johanine, Lukan and Pauline comments concerning the Spirit are diverse.

[mfblume]

There's an old thread "Salvation and the Spirit" that goes into this topic at length.

The scripture may not have a didactic treatment in broad-form of the Spirit, but we see it active in scriptures in various ways. The Johanine, Lukan and Pauline comments concerning the Spirit are diverse.

This is always the problem. Neither view is flatly stated. And people simply choose what they choose. But the simplest solution is something that is most sensible.

[Timmy]

This is always the problem. Neither view is flatly stated. And people simply choose what they choose. But the simplest solution is something that is most sensible.

And sensible is a matter of opinion. :thumbsup

[Timmy]

And sensible is a matter of opinion. :thumbsup

Oh, and so is simple. :thumbsup

[mfblume]

And sensible is a matter of opinion. :thumbsup

You are sure correct there. Nothing is black and white, huh?

[LadyRev]

All I know is this...

As a Catholic girl visiting a UPC church, I sought God to the best of my ability, prayed the best I knew how and I received the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in other tongues before I even understood what was happening to me. The understanding came AFTER the gift was received.

It was only my 3rd visit. The first visit, I was scared to death. I had never been in any church service even remotely close to this one. I did absolutely nothing but observe. The second service, I prayed some and knew I felt something I'd never felt before but I didn't move from my back pew. The 3rd service, I went to the altar and received the Holy Ghost in no time flat. Yes people were praying with me and talking to me but it was so LOUD in there that I couldn't hear a thing. I remember the VOLUME, I don't remember the instructions of those around me. I remember the experience, I don't remember it being complicated.

[NotforSale]

You are sure correct there. Nothing is black and white, huh?

If it was, we would cease from discovery, never learning new things.

A thought crossed my mind this last weekend. If a concept reaches the portal of being "Black or White", those in the concept will die from the doldrums of a windless sea.

I don't think it is even possible to obtain absolutes. God is the only One who is absolute; free from imperfection; complete; perfect. Life, which includes understanding God, is a puzzle with endless pieces of learning. An absolute means we’ve arrived at the final destination. There is no further realm or discovery.

Black and Whites may come to us in fleeting moments of passion, but time always puts them to the test where they are bent to fit. Those who accept this find life an invigorating experience, where change brings breath to a dying victim (Faith).

Religion is prison and this is why this Forum thrives by those who've put up their sails for new waters. They're tired of being anchored by absolutes that aren't absolute. They’re tired of living in the burden where ideas rot away in the concepts of yesterday. It's time for new lands, new horizons, and God has built within us a seeking that won’t settle for the stench of being stagnate by things that just don’t pan out.

Thank God for this, otherwise we will turn on one another because we are bored by something that doesn’t work anymore.

[jfrog]

I agree. But I'm not even sure he said it "hinged" nor that what he said was formulaic.

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What was the promise he was speaking of here? And what did he say was required to receive that promise? The promise was the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Repentance and baptism were the things required to qualify for this promise.

EDIT: I'm not saying that if and only if you repent and are baptized then you will receive the Holy Ghost. This would clearly be untrue from the Cornelius example. But the bible says that if you do those two things (repentance and baptism) then you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (It doesn't say immediately though... So it might take years.).

[berkeley]

More than 20 times, really?? Wow, all I can say is ya'll must have been real deep in S-I-N...
sinny-sin-sin, as Bernie Mac put it!


(kidding)

[jfrog]

There is no scripture that specifies a difference between Spirit baptism and Spirit indwelling. Show me where it is.

Who was it -- Jfrog, Jeffrey (cannot recall, apologies to the one who did not say it) -- who said that Acts 2 had BOTH indwelling and baptism happen at once, when I showed that disciples referred to Acts 2 and Acts 10 as reception, baptism, infilling, outpouring? That cannot be proved.

But Occam's Razor says they are one and the same experience if we research the issue, as I proposed on another thread about the same issue.

Occam's Razor also says that there is one type of tongues in Acts and that it is the same as the one in 1 Corinthians 12. Thus, Occam's Razor also says that not all speak in tongues as those in Acts did.

EDIT: Of course I'm sure you'll claim that what I am calling the simplest explanation isn't really the simplest... Of course that would only further prove that simplicity is subjective and that as long as simplicity is subjective then Occam's Razor is also subjective...

[Timmy]

Around here, Occam would have a beard. :ursofunny

[Raven]

If it was, we would cease from discovery, never learning new things.

A thought crossed my mind this last weekend. If a concept reaches the portal of being "Black or White", those in the concept will die from the doldrums of a windless sea.

I don't think it is even possible to obtain absolutes. God is the only One who is absolute; free from imperfection; complete; perfect. Life, which includes understanding God, is a puzzle with endless pieces of learning. An absolute means we’ve arrived at the final destination. There is no further realm or discovery.

Black and Whites may come to us in fleeting moments of passion, but time always puts them to the test where they are bent to fit. Those who accept this find life an invigorating experience, where change brings breath to a dying victim (Faith).

Religion is prison and this is why this Forum thrives by those who've put up their sails for new waters. They're tired of being anchored by absolutes that aren't absolute. They’re tired of living in the burden where ideas rot away in the concepts of yesterday. It's time for new lands, new horizons, and God has built within us a seeking that won’t settle for the stench of being stagnate by things that just don’t pan out.

Thank God for this, otherwise we will turn on one another because we are bored by something that doesn’t work anymore.

Excellent thoughts! Very well written.

[Jeffrey]

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What was the promise he was speaking of here? And what did he say was required to receive that promise? The promise was the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Repentance and baptism were the things required to qualify for this promise.

EDIT: I'm not saying that if and only if you repent and are baptized then you will receive the Holy Ghost. This would clearly be untrue from the Cornelius example. But the bible says that if you do those two things (repentance and baptism) then you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (It doesn't say immediately though... So it might take years.).

Good question.

We know the "promise of the father" is the escatological baptism of the Spirit (Joel 2), but is it fair to question here if the promise here is one of salvation or at least a promise of restoration?

I'm not sure he stated certain things were "required," in fact that isn't found in the passage. It simply isn't set up that way. It says "repent, turn to God, be baptized, receive the Spirit, etc" (some translations say "and you will receive the Spirit). Interestingly enough, it would be nice here, if he added "which you will know you have if you've spoken in unearthly tongues" or something along those lines. Another thing is v41 says 3,000 were baptized, but says nothing about them receiving the Spirit or speaking in tongues. Makes you feel like Luke's pen was going quickly, excitedly telling the events of the first few years of the church.

So is Peter giving a formula for receiving the Spirit or is he declaring what is a reality to each believer? Is this a formulaic series of steps?

If we take Peter's words literally, it seems there is no begging, pleading or demanding. It says one WILL receive the Spirit, and in a literal sense, in a particular order (though I'm not sure the verse reads like that).

Act 2:4 says they were all filled with the Spirit AND began to speak in tongues as that same Spirit gave utterance. There are no exclusive claims here. In fact, vv5-13 tell us that the tongues used here were xenolalia, not glossalalia. The point of Acts 2 is signs and wonders and it's relationship eschatologically to the Jews. Paul builds on this significance in the Epistles. 2:21 is the summary. The Day of Salvation is now. What you are seeing and are not understanding is the promised Holy Spirit (this has HUGE eschatological significance). Luke also never associates this promise that has come to the church at this event in association with salvation. It seems it accompanies it. People are clearly being saved. But the signs and wonders, tongues and Spirit baptism are more indicators from Luke of the weighty significance that there has been a shifting in time. The Future is Now. He goes on story-after-story highlighting supernatural miracles -- and going out of his way to show the Jewish and Gentile church is one in the same.

[jfrog]

Good question.

We know the "promise of the father" is the escatological baptism of the Spirit (Joel 2), but is it fair to question here if the promise here is one of salvation or at least a promise of restoration?

I'm not sure he stated certain things were "required," in fact that isn't found in the passage. It simply isn't set up that way. It says "repent, turn to God, be baptized, receive the Spirit, etc" (some translations say "and you will receive the Spirit).

Every translation has shall or will in it.

http://bible.cc/acts/2-38.htm

New International Version (©1984)
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Bible in Basic English
And Peter said, Let your hearts be changed, every one of you, and have baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will have the Holy Spirit given to you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,


Interestingly enough, it would be nice here, if he added "which you will know you have if you've spoken in unearthly tongues" or something along those lines. Another thing is v41 says 3,000 were baptized, but says nothing about them receiving the Spirit or speaking in tongues. Makes you feel like Luke's pen was going quickly, excitedly telling the events of the first few years of the church.

He already added all that was needed to show the Holy Ghost was a promise. He added the word "shall or will".

EDIT: You know that I don't think tongues are a good indicator of someone having the salvational type of Holy Ghost. I'm not sure whether I think that a sign will accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But as far as your point about the 3000, I think you stole that point from me :P


So is Peter giving a formula for receiving the Spirit or is he declaring what is a reality to each believer? Is this a formulaic series of steps?

It is a promise. Do this and that and this other thing will happen.

EDIT: It also never says the other thing won't happen if you don't do the other 2 things.


If we take Peter's words literally, it seems there is no begging, pleading or demanding. It says one WILL receive the Spirit, and in a literal sense, in a particular order (though I'm not sure the verse reads like that).

It doesn't say things will happen in any particular order. It says the Holy Spirit is promised if you do those other two things. I agree that there should be no pleading or begging or demanding.


Act 2:4 says they were all filled with the Spirit AND began to speak in tongues as that same Spirit gave utterance. There are no exclusive claims here. In fact, vv5-13 tell us that the tongues used here were xenolalia, not glossalalia.

Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

This is the same word translated as tongues pretty much everywhere else (It's also the same word as Acts 2:4). I think the greek is glossalalia. The account in Acts 2 is speaking of this.

EDIT: So it seems to me that the scriptural witness of gloassalia is that they are real human languages. (I think that was the point you were trying to make?)


The point of Acts 2 is signs and wonders and it's relationship eschatologically to the Jews. Paul builds on this significance in the Epistles. 2:21 is the summary. The Day of Salvation is now. What you are seeing and are not understanding is the promised Holy Spirit (this has HUGE eschatological significance). Luke also never associates this promise that has come to the church at this event in association with salvation. It seems it accompanies it. People are clearly being saved. But the signs and wonders, tongues and Spirit baptism are more indicators from Luke of the weighty significance that there has been a shifting in time. The Future is Now. He goes on story-after-story highlighting supernatural miracles -- and going out of his way to show the Jewish and Gentile church is one in the same.

I agree with this I think ;) I'm not saying the Holy Ghost in Acts 2 is salvational. For all I know there may be two different kinds of Holy Ghost (a baptism and an infilling). What I am saying is that the Holy Ghost baptism as you call it was promised to all believers(the repented and baptized ones). Peter said repent and be baptized and you will or shall receive the Holy Ghost. I am also saying that all believers (the repented and baptized ones) will experience whatever Holy Ghost that Peter was speaking of in Acts 2:38. (It just so happens that I also believe that he was speaking of the Holy Ghost baptism in Acts 2:38.)

[Jeffrey]

I also think he was speaking of Holy Spirit baptism.

Our only point of contention, if we even call it that because I'm certainly not certain myself, is with these points:

It is a promise. Do this and that and this other thing will happen.

EDIT: It also never says the other thing won't happen if you don't do the other 2 things.

I agree it's a promise, but not necessarily "do this and I'll do this" in form. However, there is certainly an element of "do this and this and this, and you will receive this." So I see where you are coming from. You also state this it doesn't conclude "if you don't do this and this, this won't be given to you," but that would be a logical conclusion if you accepted the conditional status of the former.

[Timmy]

I also think he was speaking of Holy Spirit baptism.

Our only point of contention, if we even call it that because I'm certainly not certain myself, is with these points:



I agree it's a promise, but not necessarily "do this and I'll do this" in form. However, there is certainly an element of "do this and this and this, and you will receive this." So I see where you are coming from. You also state this it doesn't conclude "if you don't do this and this, this won't be given to you," but that would be a logical conclusion if you accepted the conditional status of the former.

Not using real logic, it wouldn't. ;) If the condition isn't met, there is no implication, either way, for the result: it may or may not happen.

[Jeffrey]

Not using real logic, it wouldn't. ;) If the condition isn't met, there is no implication, either way, for the result: it may or may not happen.

If someone says do A and I'll give you B, one can easily imply that if they don't do A, they won't get B.

How can you say there's no implication.
If i say "Timmy, post this flyer in the state capital of all 50 states and I'll give you 1 million dollars", it's pretty much implied that if you don't post the flyer in all 50 states, that I won't give you the million dollars. I wouldn't have to make that qualification when making the deal.

This assumes the million dollars can't be received from another person independent of this offer, and that I hold all exclusivity of currency (to even up the score, since God is the only one who can baptize another with the Spirit).

[Timmy]

If someone says do A and I'll give you B, one can easily imply that if they don't do A, they won't get B.

How can you say there's no implication.
If i say "Timmy, post this flyer in the state capital of all 50 states and I'll give you 1 million dollars", it's pretty much implied that if you don't post the flyer in all 50 states, that I won't give you the million dollars. I wouldn't have to make that qualification when making the deal.

This assumes the million dollars can't be received from another person independent of this offer, and that I hold all exclusivity of currency (to even up the score, since God is the only one who can baptize another with the Spirit).

I was only talking about logic.

p->q is true when p is true and q is true, or when p is false (and it doesn't matter if q is true or false). But yes, in most offers of reward for behavior, the condition must be met for the reward to be given. But sometimes, like a dad who's an old softie, the reward might happen anyway. I've been known to give my kids ice cream even if they didn't clean their rooms. E.g.

Did Saul ask for the Holy Spirit? Did he repent?

[Jeffrey]

Touche'

[jfrog]

I also think he was speaking of Holy Spirit baptism.

Our only point of contention, if we even call it that because I'm certainly not certain myself, is with these points:



I agree it's a promise, but not necessarily "do this and I'll do this" in form. However, there is certainly an element of "do this and this and this, and you will receive this." So I see where you are coming from. You also state this it doesn't conclude "if you don't do this and this, this won't be given to you," but that would be a logical conclusion if you accepted the conditional status of the former.

I get what you are trying to say too and it deserves some consideration: that usually in promises if you don't hold up the prerequisites then you do not get the promise. But as Timmy showed, there are exceptions to not getting the promise just because you don't meet the prerequisites.

In fact I would say that biblically and also today in Pentecostal churches that baptism usually always precedes the Holy Ghost (the prerequisites before the promise). That seems to be the norm. There are some exceptions though (the promise without the prerequisites), both in the bible (Cornelius) and today.

[proudfather]

Ok, so explain this:

Zechariah 3:8 says, "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH."

How do you explain that??

Thy fellows is a reference to the associates in the priestly office. The people wonder at these men and their devotion to God. The branch is a reference to Christ. What's your point?

[proudfather]

I also think he was speaking of Holy Spirit baptism.

Our only point of contention, if we even call it that because I'm certainly not certain myself, is with these points:



I agree it's a promise, but not necessarily "do this and I'll do this" in form. However, there is certainly an element of "do this and this and this, and you will receive this." So I see where you are coming from. You also state this it doesn't conclude "if you don't do this and this, this won't be given to you," but that would be a logical conclusion if you accepted the conditional status of the former.

Jesus also said, "Ask and ye shall receive." Here the only requirement is to ask, but we all know that there are other requirements. James said, "ye ask and ye do not receive, because ye ask amiss." So when we ask God for the Holy Ghost, we should receive it even if we ask amiss? That doesn't make sense. (This question is not for Jeffrey)

[Timmy]

Touche'

:happydance

[Brad Murphy]

More than 20 times, really?? Wow, all I can say is ya'll must have been real deep in S-I-N...
sinny-sin-sin, as Bernie Mac put it!


(kidding)

Yeah, at 10 or 12 years old I was involved in a lot of sin... I think watching Dukes of Hazzard on television at my grandpa's house on Friday nights or wishing that I could go without my shirt like all the other neighborhood boys must have really been horrible in the eyes of God... after begging and pleading for months or possibly years as per the formula I eventually spoke in tongues, but I don't remember the specific date or even where it was at for that matter (since everyone else seems to remember the exact moment it happened).

[Timmy]

Jesus also said, "Ask and ye shall receive." Here the only requirement is to ask, but we all know that there are other requirements. James said, "ye ask and ye do not receive, because ye ask amiss." So when we ask God for the Holy Ghost, we should receive it even if we ask amiss? That doesn't make sense. (This question is not for Jeffrey)

Does the Bible have to make sense?

:heeheehee

[Timmy]

Yeah, at 10 or 12 years old I was involved in a lot of sin... I think watching Dukes of Hazzard on television at my grandpa's house on Friday nights or wishing that I could go without my shirt like all the other neighborhood boys must have really been horrible in the eyes of God... after begging and pleading for months or possibly years as per the formula I eventually spoke in tongues, but I don't remember the specific date or even where it was at for that matter (since everyone else seems to remember the exact moment it happened).

And I bet you don't remember all the sins that you finally repented of! :lol

[Timmy]

Does the Bible have to make sense?

:heeheehee

(This question is for everyone. :D)

[Brad Murphy]

And I bet you don't remember all the sins that you finally repented of! :lol


Being totally serious here... even at that age I tried to word things as blanket statements to make sure things would be covered,

"God, please forgive me if I have sinned and didn't realize I sinned and for anything else I may have done wrong, or if even thinking this or praying this way is wrong forgive me for that too.".

[Brad Murphy]

(This question is for everyone. :D)

I think the textbook answer is that if the Bible doesn't make sense, you aren't spiritual enough and need to get down on your knees and get the carpet soggy with your tears until you do understand it...

[deltaguitar]

Yeah, at 10 or 12 years old I was involved in a lot of sin... I think watching Dukes of Hazzard on television at my grandpa's house on Friday nights or wishing that I could go without my shirt like all the other neighborhood boys must have really been horrible in the eyes of God... after begging and pleading for months or possibly years as per the formula I eventually spoke in tongues, but I don't remember the specific date or even where it was at for that matter (since everyone else seems to remember the exact moment it happened).

I finally just admitted that I never really spoke in tongues. Maybe I did at one time or another but I am honestly not 100% sure that I ever did.

[proudfather]

(This question is for everyone. :D)

Timmy, are you a believer? I think you just like to get people stirred up. You're question is...weird.

:stirpot

[Timmy]

Timmy, are you a believer? I think you just like to get people stirred up. You're question is...weird.

:stirpot

I believe. Lots of things. :lol

[proudfather]

I believe. Lots of things. :lol

Of that I have no doubt. :)

[notofworks]

Thy fellows is a reference to the associates in the priestly office. The people wonder at these men and their devotion to God. The branch is a reference to Christ. What's your point?


You don't see it??? Look how this reconciles with Amos 3:9 (NLT)

"Announce this to the leaders of Philistia and Egypt: "Take your seats now on the hills around Samaria, and witness the scandalous spectacle of all Israel's crimes."

[proudfather]

You don't see it??? Look how this reconciles with Amos 3:9 (NLT)

"Announce this to the leaders of Philistia and Egypt: "Take your seats now on the hills around Samaria, and witness the scandalous spectacle of all Israel's crimes."

Oh yeah...I see it. It's as plain as the nose on my face. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC! :toofunny

[Jeffrey]

Only beef with Timmy at times is the way he antagonizes believers. He doesn't take anyone sincerely and he often times comes off very insincere himself. Just my impressions.

I don't sense that he's on a journey moving toward or away from anything, but sometimes more of a peanut gallery on the sidelines. Sorry, Timmy. Keeping it real and honest. That's what rubs some people the wrong way. I know NOW adores you, and to an extent I can understand why. Heck, I enjoy interacting with you sometimes too.

[Jeffrey]

Oh yeah...I see it. It's as plain as the nose on my face. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC! :toofunny

You're not getting it.

[proudfather]

You're not getting it.

I guess not. You want to explain it to me?

[Timmy]

Only beef with Timmy at times is the way he antagonizes believers. He doesn't take anyone sincerely and he often times comes off very insincere himself. Just my impressions.

I don't sense that he's on a journey moving toward or away from anything, but sometimes more of a peanut gallery on the sidelines. Sorry, Timmy. Keeping it real and honest. That's what rubs some people the wrong way. I know NOW adores you, and to an extent I can understand why. Heck, I enjoy interacting with you sometimes too.

Well, if that's your only beef with me, that's not too bad. :lol

[Jeffrey]

Well, if that's your only beef with me, that's not too bad. :lol

:razz

Maybe "beef" was too harsh hahahaha

[notofworks]

Oh yeah...I see it. It's as plain as the nose on my face. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC! :toofunny


Well, since you're not able to connect those verses from Zechariah & Amos, let me explain it to you.

Those two verses have as much to do with seeking for the Holy Ghost and not getting Him, as those meaningless verses you cited in Acts. No one, anywhere in the bible every "tried to get the Holy Ghost" was rejected...for any reason.

You can quote and blab 'til the cows come home and that's not gonna change.

[proudfather]

Well, since you're not able to connect those verses from Zechariah & Amos, let me explain it to you.

Those two verses have as much to do with seeking for the Holy Ghost and not getting Him, as those meaningless verses you cited in Acts. No one, anywhere in the bible every "tried to get the Holy Ghost" was rejected...for any reason.

You can quote and blab 'til the cows come home and that's not gonna change.

I figured that's what you were trying to do.

You can ignore what I write...that's fine. In the meantime, I'll just go and study the Bible in my little corner.

[notofworks]

I figured that's what you were trying to do.

You can ignore what I write...that's fine. In the meantime, I'll just go and study the Bible in my little corner.

You sure need to!!!!! Maybe you'll find something that will help you understand.

[proudfather]

You sure need to!!!!! Maybe you'll find something that will help you understand.

Ah, yes. It's the old, "We can't answer his questions, so we'll just make him look stupid" tactic. Joey was right about this forum. -

[NotforSale]

Ah, yes. It's the old, "We can't answer his questions, so we'll just make him look stupid" tactic. Joey was right about this forum. -


:violin:tissue

[LadyRev]

The problem lies between our ears. God doesn't have a problem giving the gift of the Holy Ghost to anyone.

But just as God isn't going to give the gift of eternal life to someone who hasn't repented, likewise, hes not going to give the Holy Ghost to someone who hasn't repented. Thats just plain ole common sense.

Some of you post like God is just in the gift giving business with no requirements.

[Jeffrey]

The problem lies between our ears. God doesn't have a problem giving the gift of the Holy Ghost to anyone.

But just as God isn't going to give the gift of eternal life to someone who hasn't repented, likewise, hes not going to give the Holy Ghost to someone who hasn't repented. Thats just plain ole common sense.

Some of you post like God is just in the gift giving business with no requirements.

Then I've been successful! :)

He definitely gives gifts, not as a reward for something we've earned, but because that's his nature. His gifts are always undeserved.

Now that doesn't mean, independent of his gift, that he doesn't expect things of us. He wants our devotion, trust and heart. He's a lover wooing us in.

Proudfather, continue to post. You won't like how everyone disagrees on here, some won't get into the fine details with you, others will. Then again, those who enjoy the details may feel like you aren't wanting to go there with them either. So, just stick around.

[ouden katakrim]

Hmmm...the idea of us asking God for His Spirit by faith and Him not giving it is a degradation of God's character.

I know the OP songbook on this subject note by note and it is egregious in it's representation of God.

ouden

[Aquila]

Once. I went to the altar, repented, and prayed for the Holy Ghost. I got it and spoke in tongues for nearly 45 minutes. My memory of the service is very hazy. Almost like my memory of a certain New Years Eve party... but that's an entirely different story. lol

[notofworks]

Ah, yes. It's the old, "We can't answer his questions, so we'll just make him look stupid" tactic. Joey was right about this forum. -

Joey is my good friend. I like him.

So far, you haven't asked me any questions, that I know of. I've been asking one for many pages here and you, my dear proudfather, have not answered it.

I think it's important, that if you're going to participate in an action pattern within the culture of your religious beliefs, that you should have some biblical foundation for it. I'm just simply asking this....don't you think it's important, if you're going to try to "pray people through to the Holy Ghost" unsuccessfully,that someone in the bible should have "prayed through to the Holy Ghost" unsuccessfully?

[On The Wheel]

The problem lies between our ears. God doesn't have a problem giving the gift of the Holy Ghost to anyone.

But just as God isn't going to give the gift of eternal life to someone who hasn't repented, likewise, hes not going to give the Holy Ghost to someone who hasn't repented. Thats just plain ole common sense.

Some of you post like God is just in the gift giving business with no requirements.

That is true. However, speaking from my own personal experience receiving the Baptism of the HG and from observations of others assaying to do the same, I've observed some things that do give me pause.

I repented of everything I could ever think of and not think of and still did not speak in tongues. I think in my desperation, I even repented for what my friends had done. The sincere and the penitent often leave the altar without speaking in tongues, including children, like my own (see a previous post for elucidation).

Of course now we have altar workers, HG coaches, folks who know how to "pray people through", and so forth. I thought the HG descended as a result of the confession of the seekers faith, not the faith of the surrounding crowd?

I know we've heard from those who say scripture can't be held accountable to broach every subject that will ever face mankind in the church, and that is true. However, the actual moment of conversion is pretty important. If we don't fully understand how that happens, then all the rest of scripture is in vain. I just can't imagine the apostolic writers neglecting to mention long tarrying services (other than the first group awaiting the promise) or giving encouragement to those who left the altar dejected because they were not able to speak in tongues. Why did Peter not instruct the churches in proper altar working techniques?

Perhaps because we are demanding a physical experience that is not required?

[noeticknight]

To reiterate my main point earlier, I believe the difficulty for me accepting “Initial Evidence” becomes clearer when viewed in light of Christianity’s core virtues. What is the cornerstone of all Christianity? It is love. Period. This is what should motivate every spiritual pilgrim, and draw him closer to God with every step of the journey. However, there is another force that compels…fear. It is by understanding why certain religious groups who value strong external identifiers, who think in terms of “black and white” (or binary thinking as Pel puts it,) and who have aligned the framework of their spiritual motivation with fear and emotionalism, that we may gain more clues as to why this doctrine is widely acceptable to them, (in spite of more theoretical holes than a house-sized block of Swiss cheese). I have observed folks in the past (myself included) who have developed a tendency to measure spirituality by external devices or outward behavior. Many of us have been able to correctly recognize that this is wrong, specifically regarding teachings about “outward holiness standards,” separation (asceticism,) etc. However, it is my opinion that the aggregate mindset has bled over into how groups interpret and view their basic approach to God.

I will preface my next statements by saying this: I believe in obedience to God 100%. It has its specific meaning and purpose, but I suppose I may disagree with many on the significance of it. As mentioned above, and for Christianity to work, I believe obedience must be a direct result of love. When one comes to God believing with faith in the heart and mind, I believe it imperative that the individual receive encouragement to build a relationship with Christ. This is crucial, because if that individual is trained that coming to God is a long list of steps before you can “get accepted,” then a warped concept of His benevolent character and unconditional love has already been established. This undermines future spiritual growth, because now the seeker has become just that, a seeker who is depending on their own ability to “get rid of sin first,” extinguish doubt, or deal with a “million” other little “unknowable” things that must be limiting God’s grace from reaching. A performance-based relationship fails later on when the signs are absent, or when the flesh cannot muster the Spirit by force of will. The idea seems to obtain all the marks of a Christian without first realizing that the benefits, gifts, and power do not precede the New Birth, but naturally follow. It must be the cause before the effect, not the reverse. “But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name” (John 1:12) John tells us that we are reconciled and made heirs, based on this underlying premise of relationship.

This is why I believe “Initial Evidence” is the moralist’s version of approaching the Father. They view the Gospel as steps existing after belief/conversion unto Christ as the means which merits salvation. Again, they are placing the effects before the cause. The Spirit of Christ causes us to seek HIM, not the signs or miracles that He is able to produce. The outward “signs and wonders” are not the regenerative force, but God’s Spirit indwelling. And yet, this is precisely what “Initial Evidence” tells us, “you do not belong to, or are not accepted of Christ until you produce the sign first." Paul writes, “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,” (Ephesians 1:13). We are baptized by His Spirit as a result of faith within. We are baptized in water as result of our pledge to His burial, and as obedience to the command of Christ. We are not saved by our record, but we are justified and redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

“Initial Evidence” elevates the sign of tongues above all others, as the supreme indicator of God’s stamp of approval on a person’s life. The advocates for it teach simple logic which suggests, if you do not exhibit tongues, you do not have Christ. However, they are unable to produce one explicit commandment or demonstrate how this was actively involved in the Early Church, other than the specific corporate examples which were, btw, significant for their time and purpose. Never mind the accounts of God’s initial Spirit outpourings which were diverse in signs, with and without. Never mind the history of the doctrine, which popped up recently, and has been horribly struggling for burden of proof. Never mind the rest of Christianity. Never mind the “rejected” faithful who go months and years (or even a lifetime) without experiencing the sign, and yet, will travel to far off lands and be executed for Christ’s sake. Never mind your experience, because “my experience trumps yours!” (I would ask: Did our Lord honor you also with “tongues of fire” above your head)? Never mind reality. Never mind the precious millions who cannot physically speak, or have never spoken, because fate has apparently predestined their path to Hell. Never mind the innocent children who do not break the magic code. Never mind God’s sovereignty, others are now able to conjure it up. Never mind the fakes, for it cannot really be told objectively one way or the other. Never mind charity, after all doesn’t that come after?

[mfblume]

Occam's Razor also says that there is one type of tongues in Acts and that it is the same as the one in 1 Corinthians 12. Thus, Occam's Razor also says that not all speak in tongues as those in Acts did.

EDIT: Of course I'm sure you'll claim that what I am calling the simplest explanation isn't really the simplest... Of course that would only further prove that simplicity is subjective and that as long as simplicity is subjective then Occam's Razor is also subjective...

No, on the contrary, you are right about tongues and 1 Cor 14. Occam's razor DOES propose that.

[jfrog]

No, on the contrary, you are right about tongues and 1 Cor 14. Occam's razor DOES propose that.

Please elaborate, because if you are saying what I think you are saying then I am amazed!