Who are we accountable to

[Godsdrummer]

7/30/2010


Accountability

Where do we get the idea that God wants or intends for us to be accountable to to anyone other than himself? In the last two years I have been studying this subject, the more I study the more I realize man has inserted himself into the place God intends for himself.

Let me start from the beginning of my study,

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This verse was preached and taught to me, and I even preached and taught it in my adult ministry. It was used as a control rod much as a parent would use a switch held in their hand to keep a child in line with the idea of a spanking if they did not behave. That thought brings me to another thought and that is our understanding of even that passage is wrong. We must not just translate words into English and think we know what they mean by our 20th century understanding.

Heb. 13:17 is a very good example of what I mean. The Word (obey) hear does not mean obey. As a matter of fact as in many words I have studied this word should not have been translated obey at all.

I will use Strong's concordance Hebrew and Greek dictionary for the base of this study. Although I also use Vines bible dictionary on many occasions to verify one another.

Heb 13:17 ObeyG3982 them that have the rule overG2233 you,G5216 andG2532 submitG5226 yourselves: forG1063 theyG846 watchG69 forG5228 yourG5216 souls,G5590 asG5613 they that must giveG591 account,G3056 thatG2443 they may doG4160 itG5124 withG3326 joy,G5479 andG2532 notG3361 with grief:G4727 forG1063 thatG5124 is unprofitableG255 for you.G5213

G3982
πείθω
peithō
pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

What I find funny is that the translators used the harshest wording here. Using the word obey, over the other words that could have been used. Now I might not think to harsh about this had I not looked at other passages that use the word obey , such as “Children obey you parent”

Eph 6:1 Children,G5043 obeyG5219 yourG5216 parentsG1118 inG1722 the Lord:G2962 forG1063 thisG5124 isG2076 right.G1342


G5219
ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

These are two entirely different Greek words and meanings. Use Hebrews 13:17 as a rod to keep subjects in line is completely adding to the word of God.

To further run this thought out I cannot find any passage of scripture where God directly commands his children at any point to follow a man. He gives and calls men to lead, but he does not command those even to dictate over his children.

As the writer of Hebrews tells us the OT was shadows and figures of the time we live in today. Let me say this slow and clear. If the OT was SHADOWS AND FIGURES examples for us today it is not a RULE BOOK. We are not to take the word and make rules from it. We are to learn from the lessons we see by the examples we read from within. This is the primary problem as I see in religion, man has tried to set a common standard from the bible and in doing so has lost what he is trying to do. But I am getting off the original thought.

Having come across the the definition of the word persuade in Heb 13, I realized I could not be in rebellion if I was not persuaded of something. There for the teaching that so many of these preacher used that if I did not obey them I was in rebellion and God hated rebellion so I was hell bent. Did not apply to me or any one else for that matter. As one could not be in rebellion to something they did not agree with.

Now I could break down Hebrews 13:17 more but I will move on for now. But if one does break it down the verse says something completely different than the way most preach it.

So what really bothers me is this idea built upon this verse (from my view anyway) that we must all be accountable to someone higher, ie saints, teachers, pastors and so on. Or to word it differently we must have someone over us that holds us accountable. The kingdom of God is not a business, the kingdom of God is a theocracy of which the best example would be the time before the crowning of king Saul. The nation of Israel were governed by God. When the people turned from serving God then God would raise up a judge that would lead them back to God and to victory over their enemy's.

Paul teaches us in Ephesians God's plan for his kingdom and the accountability we are to have is to him.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
As we read this chapter nowhere does Paul teach we are to be accountable to anyone other than him. Other than the natural accountability to the family unity.
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

As Paul directs us to submit one to another he does not leave us in the dark as to who or what we are to submit to. This goes back to the theocracy system of OT times before the kings. Wives submit yourselves to your husband as unto to Lord. Rather than use today's rendering of submit let us use the bible to understand what God defines as submit for the wife. To do this we must go all the way back to creation.
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

The Hebrew words for Help Meet, mean (an aid) (counter part) there was not subjection according to our definition. In our society we have suppressed the women to the degree that she is almost a servant. This was never God's intent. Therefor we must look differently at how we read this passage even in Ephesians.

We are given the best example ever, (the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church and gave himself for her. As he is the saviour of her. I don't know if you are following this yet or not.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

The complete understanding of the submission of wives to the husband is finally understood by the way the husband is to treat his wife. Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. I think that says it all if a husband can find a way to treat him wife as a servant or lower class of person than he in the face of the fact that Christ loved us and gave himself on the cross than he is almost hopeless.

Moving on many have taken the next passage of scripture to continue the thought pattern of the continuing reason for accountability to someone other than Christ.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Of course when one take these two verses out of context it is easy to use them to teach that God put what has come to be called the five fold ministry by many. Teaching that God put into the church these five offices of authority to perfect the saints, and to do the work of the (five fold) ministry.

But lets put these verses within the context of the chapter.
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

The first thing we must determine is to whom he is writing to. Note who Paul addresses this letter to.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Wow not to the pastor, or official elder or deacon or even bishop. To the saints, they are to walk worthy of the vocation THEY are called to.


Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Here is a thought if there is only one body, why would God divide the body by putting separate heads over various groups? Regardless of how you look at it this divides the body into separate bodies. We are the body under Christ not a pastor under Christ then the saints. To prove this point,
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
What were these gifts he gave to men?
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
These are gifts given within the body not over the body, for the equipping of the saints to do the work of ministry, and the edification of the body. Not as has been read “to perfect the saints and to minister to the saints” as has been the way we read this passage. A reviling thought, we are not to be ministered to, we are to be ministers to the world.

Much more could me said on this subject as this is just a highlight of what I have found in the study I have done on this, I don't ask that you accept this on my word alone but let the spirit of God direct you in your own study on the subject.

[Amanah]

I'm giving thought to what you said and really have not come to a conclusion on how to respond. At this point I only have a question: Do you fellowship with other believers and if so what are the circumstances?, do you meet in a church building, in a home?

I find it hard to imagine that one person could contain all the facets of the "body of Christ" for ministry.

[Praxeas]

I don't see how the word "obey" is harsh.

Recommendation. Throw away Strongs concordance and invest some money in a real lexicon like BDAG

ⓑ obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing (Hom. et al.; Diod S 4, 31, 5 τῷ χρησμῷ=the oracle; Maximus Tyr. 23, 2d τῷ θεῷ; 36, 6g τ. νόμῳ τοῦ Διός; Appian, Iber. 19 §73 θεῶ; pap; 4 Macc 10:13; 15:10; 18:1; Just., D. 9, 1; Mel., P. 93, 705; π. θεῷ Did., Gen. 225, 17; τῇ ἀδικίᾳ Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 5]) Ro 2:8 (opp. ἀπειθεῖν, as Himerius, Or. 69 [=Or. 22], 7); Gal 3:1 v.l.; 5:7; Hb 13:17; Js 3:3; 2 Cl 17:5; Dg 5:10; IRo 7:2ab; Hm 12, 3, 3.
BDAG

36.12 πείθομαιa; πειθαρχέω: to submit to authority or reason by obeying—‘to obey.’
πείθομαιa: πείθεσθε τοῖς ἡγουμένοις ὑμῶν καὶ ὑπείκετε ‘obey your leaders and submit to them’ He 13:17.
πειθαρχέω: πειθαρχήσαντάς μοι μὴ ἀνάγεσθαι ἀπὸ τῆς Κρήτης ‘you should have listened to me and not have sailed from Crete’ Ac 27:21.
TDNT


You can't just look up a series of definition from strongs and pick one.Strongs does not address issues of grammar such as whether the word is a plural, whether it's first or second person etc etc

I also don't see this as an accountability issue;. Given the word, the intent here is to obey their teaching, not obey their every whim but their teaching of God's word.

This assumes these people are qualified to begin with to teach the word :thumbsup

[Aquila]

I believe it means we are to obey elders in the sense of allowing ourselves to be convinced of their labour in the Word, not in regards arbitrary rules and legalistic standards not found in Scripture.

[Godsdrummer]

I don't see how the word "obey" is harsh.

Recommendation. Throw away Strongs concordance and invest some money in a real lexicon like BDAG

ⓑ obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing (Hom. et al.; Diod S 4, 31, 5 τῷ χρησμῷ=the oracle; Maximus Tyr. 23, 2d τῷ θεῷ; 36, 6g τ. νόμῳ τοῦ Διός; Appian, Iber. 19 §73 θεῶ; pap; 4 Macc 10:13; 15:10; 18:1; Just., D. 9, 1; Mel., P. 93, 705; π. θεῷ Did., Gen. 225, 17; τῇ ἀδικίᾳ Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 5]) Ro 2:8 (opp. ἀπειθεῖν, as Himerius, Or. 69 [=Or. 22], 7); Gal 3:1 v.l.; 5:7; Hb 13:17; Js 3:3; 2 Cl 17:5; Dg 5:10; IRo 7:2ab; Hm 12, 3, 3.
BDAG

36.12 πείθομαιa; πειθαρχέω: to submit to authority or reason by obeying—‘to obey.’
πείθομαιa: πείθεσθε τοῖς ἡγουμένοις ὑμῶν καὶ ὑπείκετε ‘obey your leaders and submit to them’ He 13:17.
πειθαρχέω: πειθαρχήσαντάς μοι μὴ ἀνάγεσθαι ἀπὸ τῆς Κρήτης ‘you should have listened to me and not have sailed from Crete’ Ac 27:21.
TDNT


You can't just look up a series of definition from strongs and pick one.Strongs does not address issues of grammar such as whether the word is a plural, whether it's first or second person etc etc

I also don't see this as an accountability issue;. Given the word, the intent here is to obey their teaching, not obey their every whim but their teaching of God's word.

This assumes these people are qualified to begin with to teach the word :thumbsup





Actualy I don't rely on Strongs I got this from Vines although all other dictionaries I have checked back this up. Check it out the word for Obey here is not the same word in Greek as say Children obey your parents. I further check other words in the same passage to see it the translaters did in fact follow the context of the passage.

If I may this seems more the proper renering of this verse to me "pursuade them that have the oversight over you for they have been put there to oversee you as they must give an account to God for what they teach whether it be right or wrong."

[Aquila]

Even if one takes the strongest position on "obey", elders have the sacred obligation to minister in the Word, not issue arbitrary commands of opinion. Obedience is to the Word, not men.

[Godsdrummer]

Even if one takes the strongest position on "obey", elders have the sacred obligation to minister in the Word, not issue arbitrary commands of opinion. Obedience is to the Word, not men.

That is the point, where does the word give the command that there is one group over another group, (saints, ministers) where the one group is suppost to hold a higher place than the other in understanding the word? Are we not all called to minister and be ministers to the lost?

Further, elders are just that those that have been in the faith longer and they should lead by example, and teaching. One should note that even if you accept what has come to be called the five fold ministry as offices, not one of them are offices or position of authority.

As for the position of "obey" I think you miss my point. The word in Hebrews 13:17 is peitho not hupakouō as in Ephesians 6:1.

[Godsdrummer]

I don't see how the word "obey" is harsh.

Recommendation. Throw away Strongs concordance and invest some money in a real lexicon like BDAG

You can't just look up a series of definition from strongs and pick one.Strongs does not address issues of grammar such as whether the word is a plural, whether it's first or second person etc etc

I also don't see this as an accountability issue;. Given the word, the intent here is to obey their teaching, not obey their every whim but their teaching of God's word.

That is the other issue you state a contradiction in your own teaching. Are we not to "seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling"? Then where do you get that God then commands us to "obey" the teaching of men? What if in my studies I come to a different conclution than the man/women that have set themselves up as overseer what recourse does one have, and where is the actual bible that says I must fall under their authority or be in rebelion?

As an accountability issue, then go back to my original question, where do we get the idea that we must be accountable to someone other than God?



There is one problem that you are missing, that many bible dicitionaries don't address. That is that when different Greek words are used but we use the same english we lose the meaning in many cases. As in this passage. That is where strongs comes in as it shows where different words are used. If I look up the word obey and just take that defintion as the meaning of the greek word. then I am not rightly dividing the word properly. One must dig deeper to find why and how this changes the meaning of the verse if at all.

[Aquila]

That is the point, where does the word give the command that there is one group over another group, (saints, ministers) where the one group is suppost to hold a higher place than the other in understanding the word? Are we not all called to minister and be ministers to the lost?

Further, elders are just that those that have been in the faith longer and they should lead by example, and teaching. One should note that even if you accept what has come to be called the five fold ministry as offices, not one of them are offices or position of authority.

As for the position of "obey" I think you miss my point. The word in Hebrews 13:17 is peitho not hupakouō as in Ephesians 6:1.

Regarding elders functioning with the gift of prophecy, those attending the meeting are to understand that the prophets are subject to the spirit of the prophets. That means, those testifying and using prophetic gifts in their smaller interactive assemblies are to remain subject to the established elders.

Luke states,

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

There are obviously overseers.

In addition, Paul states,

1 Timothy 3:1-5
1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

There is clearly oversight in the church. And elders are responsible for that oversight. However, the church is more akin to a family than a corporation. Elders aren't to lord over the Lord's flock like CEO's. But rather they are to govern the church as a father governs a family. Also, when an elder does "lay down the line", I believe it should be with regards to things which have biblical precedent. For example, fornication...not facial hair.

I think we have to understand something else. Not all Apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, and pastors hold the office of "elder". We all function within a given ministry. Apostles are essentially missional, spreading the gospel where it hasn't been heard. Evangelists preach the message of the Gospel among those who have heard and even among the saints for edification. Prophets speak "for God". Teachers teach essential doctrines and truths of Scripture. Pastors are spiritual mentors who guide others in beging a disciple of Jesus. All of us have one or more of these giftings, even if we dont' have an official "office" in the church.

[Godsdrummer]

I'm giving thought to what you said and really have not come to a conclusion on how to respond. At this point I only have a question: Do you fellowship with other believers and if so what are the circumstances?, do you meet in a church building, in a home?

I find it hard to imagine that one person could contain all the facets of the "body of Christ" for ministry.

Of course we fellowship with other believers, as we are instructed that we should "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together". As for the circimstances? that varies, the question is what differance should there be whether we meet in a church building or a home. "God does not dwell in buildings made by hands" we are his dwelling place, collectively we are the body.

I find it hard to imagine that one person could contain all the facets of the "body of Christ" for ministry

That is because you and I have been told we cannot, give me bible and verse for that fact. We have been lied to from RCC days that we must have men over us to tell us what the word means that we cannot understand all the ins and outs of God's word. And that is a lie. Or else Paul would never have written "study to show yourself approved" or "Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling", or "Follow me as I follow Christ" . There are no divisions in the body of Christ, Christ is the head and we are all members.

I might remind everyone Gods kingdom is a theocracy that means God rules it without a man in between. Paul teaches us in Ephesians that under God is Christ, under Christ is the husband, and under the husband the wife and children. This is how the word is to come down. Not God, Christ, Pastor, husband, wife, chidren.

Go back to the old testement during the time of the judges. The word was to be taught by the parents to the children. The whole set up from dwelling on their own land, to assembling just a few times a year on the feast days. Was the way God set it up and wanted it. The only times God raised up a leader was when they had strayed from his plan, then God allowed a neighboring nation to come and oppress them till they turned back to God.

When the people wanted a king, it was not the leader that was being rejected it was God.

Bottom line they were never accountable to the judge, or prophet, they were accountable to God. Further they were not subject to the judge or prophet they were subject to the law of God. The judge or prophet might turn them back to God, but that was as far as it went.

[Godsdrummer]

I might add or remind everyone, our commision is not to build church buildings or see how many people we can get to come to our church, neither is it to build denominations "did not Christ say either they are for us or agianst us" we allow doctrinal issues that have no bering on salvation separate us and divide us.

Our commision is to preach (herald) the gospel to every creature, man women and child. The gosple is not our own individual idea of what comprises salvation either. The gosple is the Good News That the Kindom of God has come.

[TJJJ]

Obey your pastor G Drummer, by the way, you missed your tithes this week.

[MissBrattified]

IMO, we can (and should) make ourselves accountable to our leaders and elders. However, it's voluntary on our part, from my understanding of scripture, and they hold no actual authority over us. Some people believe, for instance, that you don't have the ability to leave a church and go somewhere else should you disagree with your current pastor. While I do believe in loyalty and faithfulness, I also believe that we choose our own authorities, and then we make ourselves accountable to them and submit to their authority. So long as that authority is godly, there's no problem.

I don't believe there's anything scriptural about pastors involving themselves in the minute details of saints' lives and dictating things that they have no business dictating (such as what car they should buy or whether or not they can go on vacation). However, I do believe they should oversee the assembly and try to guide saints in a godly direction. In most cases, saints should follow that leadership respectfully.

[Sister Alvear]

IMO, we can (and should) make ourselves accountable to our leaders and elders. However, it's voluntary on our part, from my understanding of scripture, and they hold no actual authority over us. Some people believe, for instance, that you don't have the ability to leave a church and go somewhere else should you disagree with your current pastor. While I do believe in loyalty and faithfulness, I also believe that we choose our own authorities, and then we make ourselves accountable to them and submit to their authority. So long as that authority is godly, there's no problem.

I don't believe there's anything scriptural about pastors involving themselves in the minute details of saints' lives and dictating things that they have no business dictating (such as what car they should buy or whether or not they can go on vacation). However, I do believe they should oversee the assembly and try to guide saints in a godly direction. In most cases, saints should follow that leadership respectfully.
:highfive

[Godsdrummer]

IMO, we can (and should) make ourselves accountable to our leaders and elders. However, it's voluntary on our part, from my understanding of scripture, and they hold no actual authority over us. Some people believe, for instance, that you don't have the ability to leave a church and go somewhere else should you disagree with your current pastor. While I do believe in loyalty and faithfulness, I also believe that we choose our own authorities, and then we make ourselves accountable to them and submit to their authority. So long as that authority is godly, there's no problem.

I don't believe there's anything scriptural about pastors involving themselves in the minute details of saints' lives and dictating things that they have no business dictating (such as what car they should buy or whether or not they can go on vacation). However, I do believe they should oversee the assembly and try to guide saints in a godly direction. In most cases, saints should follow that leadership respectfully.


Stop and look at what you just said, "choose your authority, then make yourself accountable to them" I ask you why? When Israel wanted a king they were turning from God and the personal relationship he had and wanted with his chosen people. We say give me a pastor we don't want to hear direct from God. The children of Israel said to Moses, you speak and listen and we will obey.
Ever wonder when the cloud by day and pillor of fire by night left them?

You said you make yourself accountable to your pastor, why not make yourself accounable to God and submit to him. Jesus nor the apostles taught submit to one group of authority. Jesus taught we are to submit to one another and the greatest in the kingdom was the servant of all. Scripture never teaches to submit to ONE individual anywhere.

I say all this talk about being accountable is just another way to keep the group under the leadership. Let me tell you many churches today are governed more on a totalitarian concept and so far from theocracy it is scary no wonder so many cults spring up and people become followers.

[Sister Alvear]

Somebody has to be over us...I am deeply thankful for my pastor...

[Praxeas]

Actualy I don't rely on Strongs I got this from Vines although all other dictionaries I have checked back this up. Check it out the word for Obey here is not the same word in Greek as say Children obey your parents. I further check other words in the same passage to see it the translaters did in fact follow the context of the passage.

If I may this seems more the proper renering of this verse to me "pursuade them that have the oversight over you for they have been put there to oversee you as they must give an account to God for what they teach whether it be right or wrong."
That it's not the same word is irrelevant. I quoted some of the best Greek Lexicons you can buy.

As I said it depends on the grammar and context.

Example, para means "with" in greek. Well so does the word pros. One can't say just because they are not the same word that Pros can't mean "with". It can mean other things but again grammar and context play a lot into that.

Why would a "lay" person have to persuade those that are over them? That does not make sense. Who translate it that way anyways?

It would seem more sensical that those that teach and have the over sight are charged with persuading those that hear with sound teaching and doctrine

2Ti 1:13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Tit 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

Tit 1:13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

Tit 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
2Co 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience.

[Praxeas]

Even if one takes the strongest position on "obey", elders have the sacred obligation to minister in the Word, not issue arbitrary commands of opinion. Obedience is to the Word, not men.
Right

But we are also supposed to follow them as they follow the word

1Co 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.

1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
We are obeying the teaching of the word through them that are over us

[Praxeas]

That is the point, where does the word give the command that there is one group over another group, (saints, ministers) where the one group is suppost to hold a higher place than the other in understanding the word? Are we not all called to minister and be ministers to the lost?

Further, elders are just that those that have been in the faith longer and they should lead by example, and teaching. One should note that even if you accept what has come to be called the five fold ministry as offices, not one of them are offices or position of authority.

As for the position of "obey" I think you miss my point. The word in Hebrews 13:17 is peitho not hupakouō as in Ephesians 6:1.
We are all called to minister but not everyone is a leader

Look at your verse again
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Your leaders. If we are all leaders this is nonsensical.

Submit to THEM. Again if we are all leaders then the author of Hebrews is not making any sense

THEY are keeping watch. Who? "Your Leaders"

Again, as before, just because it's not the same greek word is irrelevant

[Praxeas]

There is one problem that you are missing, that many bible dicitionaries don't address. That is that when different Greek words are used but we use the same english we lose the meaning in many cases. As in this passage. That is where strongs comes in as it shows where different words are used. If I look up the word obey and just take that defintion as the meaning of the greek word. then I am not rightly dividing the word properly. One must dig deeper to find why and how this changes the meaning of the verse if at all.

Again, it depends on the grammar. What tense? Gender? Case? Number? Grammar tells us how a greek word is to be used, or do you know something every Greek scholar does not.

Same word here
Act 27:21 Since they had been without food for a long time, Paul stood up among them and said, "Men, you should have listened to me and not have set sail from Crete and incurred this injury and loss.
Is Paul really saying they should have persuaded Paul? Or been persuaded BY Paul's argument?
Also consider the context
Heb 13:7 Remeand imitate their faith. mber your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life,
Here the person's receiving the actions by those who are to obey the command are in the dative case

ⓑ obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing (Hom. et al.; Diod S 4, 31, 5 τῷ χρησμῷ=the oracle; Maximus Tyr. 23, 2d τῷ θεῷ; 36, 6g τ. νόμῳ τοῦ Διός; Appian, Iber. 19 §73 θεῶ; pap; 4 Macc 10:13; 15:10; 18:1; Just., D. 9, 1; Mel., P. 93, 705; π. θεῷ Did., Gen. 225, 17; τῇ ἀδικίᾳ Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 5]) Ro 2:8 (opp. ἀπειθεῖν, as Himerius, Or. 69 [=Or. 22], 7); Gal 3:1 v.l.; 5:7; Hb 13:17; Js 3:3; 2 Cl 17:5; Dg 5:10; IRo 7:2ab; Hm 12, 3, 3.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (792). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

[Amanah]

I guess we are ultimately accountable to Jesus through the bible; and, we follow spiritual leadership as long as they follow the word of God.

This is where it obviously becomes tricky, as reading these forums shows that sincere people can read the bible and come up with variant interpretations.

This is where we either decide to tow the line and stand on our head and gargle peanut butter if the pastor requires it.

Or we decide to go it alone since we can't find a church that teaches things the way we believe.

Or we find a church that is a reasonable fit and deign to live with contradictions between what you believe and what others believe.

[Godsdrummer]

We are all called to minister but not everyone is a leader

Look at your verse again
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Your leaders. If we are all leaders this is nonsensical.

Submit to THEM. Again if we are all leaders then the author of Hebrews is not making any sense

THEY are keeping watch. Who? "Your Leaders"

Again, as before, just because it's not the same greek word is irrelevant

Praxeas
I consede your point to a degree, yes he is speaking of leaders, yes they watch for your soul, and yes God will hold them acountable as to whether they teach the right word.

Here is where we disagree, studing the use of the word peitho in other scriptures we find it is never use in the context that the word obey is used here.

Mat 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:


Act 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

These are just a few scriptures where the word "peitho" is used as you can see it is a softer term than hupakouo as is used in Ephesians 6:1
Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

Heb 13:17 Yield to those leading you, and be submissive, for they watch for your souls, as those who must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you.

The previous is the MKJV as you can see they use the softer use of the wording, is it any wonder that most of the greek lexicons tend to utillize the ideas that they have been influance by? I used to stand strong on the KJV over all others because I was told by those over me that it was the only translation that was unbiased. What they ment those leaders that were over me was it was unbiased in the areas of trinity. They did not care about the rest of the scripture as it was biased in the areas that those leaders that I was raised under agreed with.

Praxeas where do we get this idea that we must have a pastor over us? First none of the verses used to teach this speak in the singular, nor do they use the term pastor. They speak in the plural and use terms like elders, leaders etc.

Further and I am sure you know this as you seem to be a very studied person, the OT preist did not and were not the spiritual overseers of Israel. Their job was the ministering in the tabernacle and what that detailed. God gave them the commandment to teach the law to the children the first time. Then God commanded the parents to teach thier children. After that the only time the priest hood came into the scene were if Israel backslid.

The only place we see preist control is within the Idol worship temples, when Constitine make Christianity the national religion he alowed the influance of the idol worshipers to set many of the standards. We see hence temples build more like idolitrous temple rather than Christian assemblies. The understanding of the deity of God, in multiples rather than singular. The worship of things rather than God, ie, Mary the mother of God, kissing the ring of the preist, praying to mary, or the saints, those other than Jesus. The list goes on, but one of the biggest in MHO is the influance of preist control. The RCC state that only the church has the power to translate the "holy scripture" and that thier translation must stand over any other. The pastoral control over the individual body comes from the RCC not scripture.

Yes we are to have leaders, those that have been chosen by the body because they are full of the spirit and have a good report. But they do not and are not to exersize authoritive spritiual control over the body. Their job is to teach the word.

Here is one final point, I would like to lay out here. When leaders put themselve into postion. In the system we have today. Who holds them accountable? Other leaders withing the same beleif system they have? What happenes when they teach a doctrine that is not bible? Much like many of the erronious doctrines in UPCI and other performance based religions. When a saint comes to them the saint either must leave or tow under the teaching of the pastor, or else be called rebelious. Where then is the submition one to another?

[Godsdrummer]

I guess we are ultimately accountable to Jesus through the bible; and, we follow spiritual leadership as long as they follow the word of God.

This is where it obviously becomes tricky, as reading these forums shows that sincere people can read the bible and come up with variant interpretations.

This is where we either decide to tow the line and stand on our head and gargle peanut butter if the pastor requires it.

Or we decide to go it alone since we can't find a church that teaches things the way we believe.

Or we find a church that is a reasonable fit and deign to live with contradictions between what you believe and what others believe.

Is that all that hard to live with, as more and more true followers of Christ move out of permormance based releigions and into churches that teach the word and less their own personal opinions you will find there are alot less contradictions than one might think. I have found in the last 10 years there are less differances between even AOG, 4 square, and many nondenominal churches than what one think. Having attened several over the last several years and talking with pastors. The trend being to teach the word not personal opinions.

I was taught growing up they did not teach the word because they did not have the whole truth ie baptism in Jesus name, understanding of the Godhead ect. the truth is they teach the word more than the organization I grew up in.

[acerrak]

Is that all that hard to live with, as more and more true followers of Christ move out of permormance based releigions and into churches that teach the word and less their own personal opinions you will find there are alot less contradictions than one might think. I have found in the last 10 years there are less differances between even AOG, 4 square, and many nondenominal churches than what one think. Having attened several over the last several years and talking with pastors. The trend being to teach the word not personal opinions.

I was taught growing up they did not teach the word because they did not have the whole truth ie baptism in Jesus name, understanding of the Godhead ect. the truth is they teach the word more than the organization I grew up in.


agreed. last night i was pondering on my old church of God and my childhood and teenage years. I remember the fun it was to go to church, how i didnt want to miss a service.

The preacher just preached the word. It seemed like every message was for me. Old testament stories was brought alive. Huge alter calls, great moves of the Spirit.. Last night i was longing for it, Spent about 45 mins in prayer, even to the point of fighting sleep.

it was triggered by a song i grew up with as a teenager. I remember my Zeal, my vibrancy. I felt more at home there than i do now. I sit in a upci and listen to preaching you must speak in tounges or your not saved, you dont have the holy ghost.

I would pull away but my wife is likes the church, but she doesnt believe like the upci either. So tolerance can be a good and bad thing

[Amanah]

is there a church like the one you are yearning for in your area?

[acerrak]

is there a church like the one you are yearning for in your area?

please do not misunderstand me the people at the upci are very carring and loving, one of the reasons we have stayed there.

and yes there is a church of God in the city, I have been to it twice.

The first time i went to it was with my brother. There pastor was at some conference and a evangelist was there filling in. This man who we never met, had the Spirit working in him. He lined everyone one up in a line and spoke to them.

He was reading our mail. The gift of prophecy was active in him. He told me stuff that no one except my brother should have known, and he did the same with my brother. Accurate and true, and what he spoke to me came true.

the second time i went with my family. My wife did enjoy it. However there was a big divide of people age wise and not many our age, many was older.

The church i spoke of as a youth, The pastor left after 16 years. one of the men who put there name in the hat for election was a good friend of mine. He did not get voted. The denomination wouldnt allow it.

so he broke off and started his own church ( non denominational) its a drive but i would like to go there. They started out in a double wide, now they are laying a foundation and have been building a church building.

the man is open, all finances are available for viewing, no secretes, and his ideas of out reach go along with what i believe churches should do.

just the drive is along ways away.
and i have dropped many hints to my wife that i want to go and visit. but again the drive is the factor

[Godsdrummer]

Ace

One of the things I see having been raise UPCI and carried licence with them for 10 years, and the list goes on. I won't bore you or others with the details.

Many have been led by God into oneness churches to receive a deeper infilling of his spirit, and a better understanding of his deity. But because the teaching of many oneness groups put fear into the hearts of their saints and hold them under a false authority God never intended organizations to have over their people. Mnay people get stuck within the oneness group for fear that if they leave they will be lost!!!

When I feel God wants them to take what they have learned and go back into the denominal groups and let the spirit spread.

One thing that came as a light to me about 4 years ago. I realzed that many things oneness groups preached were not true bible doctrines. I realized how can one group accuse the other of going to hell when both are wrong about things. Example i was taught trinitarian people were going to hell because they did not beleive or understand the oneness of the Godhead. Think where in scripture does it say one has to have a complete understanding of the deity of God to be saved?

When I was 17 I had a girlfriend that was AOG, I went to her church on Sunday night as she had been comming to ours. I felt the spirit of God there, and the service wonderful along with the people. I was so indoctinated that they were lost that I talked myself into beleiving that what I felt was not the spirit of God but a spirit of Love. Or something else. This happened on more than one occations with different denomination.

Bottom line oneness do not have the monopoly on the spirit of God, and salvation. We may have a better understanding of who God is.

[Lafon]

...where in scripture does it say one has to have a complete understanding of the deity of God to be saved?

John 8:22-24
Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath: I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

How might you interpret our Lord's closing remarks of verse #24?

It would seem (to me, at least) that Jesus was informing us that unless we believe He was God manifested in human flesh (if this is what you interpret the word "deity" to imply) we are NOT saved, as I am irrevocably persuaded that it does, then I must concede that anyone who does not hold to such a belief is lost.

There should be no doubting that it is possible for one to "feel" the presence of the Spirit in gatherings (churches, assemblies, denominations or whatever term one might use to refer to a group of people who have come together as a corporate entity for the purpose of worshipping God) where those in attendance do not possess knowledge of the oneness of God, but this, in an of itself, should never be interpreted to mean that everyone in attendance are saved.

I believe it of extreme importance to recognize and fully understand, that the pathway which leads to life eternal is "strait" (defined as rigid and exacting), and NOT "wide" (broad, general, or varied). If the apostles, those who were specially chosen of the Lord to deliver the saving message of the gospel to the unsaved, taught that one MUST take heed to and obey the commandments of Acts 2:38, then there simply cannot be any other pathway to eternal life, period! This is why "many" are called, but only a "few" are chosen, as well as why we are instructed to "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24) Those are Jesus' words - not mine.

And that is my final answer! :nod:amen

[Godsdrummer]

John 8:22-24
Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath: I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

How might you interpret our Lord's closing remarks of verse #24?

It would seem (to me, at least) that Jesus was informing us that unless we believe He was God manifested in human flesh (if this is what you interpret the word "deity" to imply) we are NOT saved, as I am irrevocably persuaded that it does, then I must concede that anyone who does not hold to such a belief is lost.

There should be no doubting that it is possible for one to "feel" the presence of the Spirit in gatherings (churches, assemblies, denominations or whatever term one might use to refer to a group of people who have come together as a corporate entity for the purpose of worshipping God) where those in attendance do not possess knowledge of the oneness of God, but this, in an of itself, should never be interpreted to mean that everyone in attendance are saved.

I believe it of extreme importance to recognize and fully understand, that the pathway which leads to life eternal is "strait" (defined as rigid and exacting), and NOT "wide" (broad, general, or varied). If the apostles, those who were specially chosen of the Lord to deliver the saving message of the gospel to the unsaved, taught that one MUST take heed to and obey the commandments of Acts 2:38, then there simply cannot be any other pathway to eternal life, period! This is why "many" are called, but only a "few" are chosen, as well as why we are instructed to "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24) Those are Jesus' words - not mine.

And that is my final answer! :nod:amen

This answer is not just for lafon, but in response to all that will read this quote.

So let me just direct your eyes to a few passages of scripture, as lafon has quoted passages that are always quoted in referance to this idea.
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Trinitarians beleive Jesus was God come to earth, yet they do not understand the ins and outs or the deity of God. Even oneness do not have a complete understanding of the deity of God in many circles, yet they are saved you say because they reject any other understanding.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The primary understanding is that "Jesus Came In the Flesh" What does this mean? Does it mean as Lafon has implied that it is a hard understanding of of the Godhead? Or does it simply mean as scripture implies to beleive and profess that Messiah has come in the flesh. Which to the Jewish religious leaders did not mean spiritual salvation, but rather an earthly kingdom that would deliver them from earthly governements and set them up as world control.

To beleive that Jesus came in the flesh was not an understanding that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, but rather that the Messiah had come and that his kingdom was here now and that it was a spritiual kingdom not an earthly kingdom, one that freed one from the laws of leagalism setting one in personal relationship with God, rather than the dictates of religious leaders.

Those that rejected this looking rather for an earthly kingdom were the anti-christ. And those that came into the kingdom of God and then returned to law keeping.

There should be no doubting that it is possible for one to "feel" the presence of the Spirit in gatherings (churches, assemblies, denominations or whatever term one might use to refer to a group of people who have come together as a corporate entity for the purpose of worshipping God) where those in attendance do not possess knowledge of the oneness of God, but this, in an of itself, should never be interpreted to mean that everyone in attendance are saved.

I beg to differ on this too as in the passage we are quoting John does not say to determine if they have a understanding of the oneness of God, but rather instrcts us to TRY THE SPIRITS, whether they be of God or not.

Too many times in the ignorance of our own understanding we judge others by our own standars of recognition rather than trying the spirits and caused many to fall and become discouraged, and Jesus says it would be better for us to have a millstone tied around our necks and be cast into the sea.