Who are we accountable to

[Godsdrummer]

7/30/2010


Accountability

Where do we get the idea that God wants or intends for us to be accountable to to anyone other than himself? In the last two years I have been studying this subject, the more I study the more I realize man has inserted himself into the place God intends for himself.

Let me start from the beginning of my study,

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This verse was preached and taught to me, and I even preached and taught it in my adult ministry. It was used as a control rod much as a parent would use a switch held in their hand to keep a child in line with the idea of a spanking if they did not behave. That thought brings me to another thought and that is our understanding of even that passage is wrong. We must not just translate words into English and think we know what they mean by our 20th century understanding.

Heb. 13:17 is a very good example of what I mean. The Word (obey) hear does not mean obey. As a matter of fact as in many words I have studied this word should not have been translated obey at all.

I will use Strong's concordance Hebrew and Greek dictionary for the base of this study. Although I also use Vines bible dictionary on many occasions to verify one another.

Heb 13:17 ObeyG3982 them that have the rule overG2233 you,G5216 andG2532 submitG5226 yourselves: forG1063 theyG846 watchG69 forG5228 yourG5216 souls,G5590 asG5613 they that must giveG591 account,G3056 thatG2443 they may doG4160 itG5124 withG3326 joy,G5479 andG2532 notG3361 with grief:G4727 forG1063 thatG5124 is unprofitableG255 for you.G5213

G3982
πείθω
peithō
pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

What I find funny is that the translators used the harshest wording here. Using the word obey, over the other words that could have been used. Now I might not think to harsh about this had I not looked at other passages that use the word obey , such as “Children obey you parent”

Eph 6:1 Children,G5043 obeyG5219 yourG5216 parentsG1118 inG1722 the Lord:G2962 forG1063 thisG5124 isG2076 right.G1342


G5219
ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

These are two entirely different Greek words and meanings. Use Hebrews 13:17 as a rod to keep subjects in line is completely adding to the word of God.

To further run this thought out I cannot find any passage of scripture where God directly commands his children at any point to follow a man. He gives and calls men to lead, but he does not command those even to dictate over his children.

As the writer of Hebrews tells us the OT was shadows and figures of the time we live in today. Let me say this slow and clear. If the OT was SHADOWS AND FIGURES examples for us today it is not a RULE BOOK. We are not to take the word and make rules from it. We are to learn from the lessons we see by the examples we read from within. This is the primary problem as I see in religion, man has tried to set a common standard from the bible and in doing so has lost what he is trying to do. But I am getting off the original thought.

Having come across the the definition of the word persuade in Heb 13, I realized I could not be in rebellion if I was not persuaded of something. There for the teaching that so many of these preacher used that if I did not obey them I was in rebellion and God hated rebellion so I was hell bent. Did not apply to me or any one else for that matter. As one could not be in rebellion to something they did not agree with.

Now I could break down Hebrews 13:17 more but I will move on for now. But if one does break it down the verse says something completely different than the way most preach it.

So what really bothers me is this idea built upon this verse (from my view anyway) that we must all be accountable to someone higher, ie saints, teachers, pastors and so on. Or to word it differently we must have someone over us that holds us accountable. The kingdom of God is not a business, the kingdom of God is a theocracy of which the best example would be the time before the crowning of king Saul. The nation of Israel were governed by God. When the people turned from serving God then God would raise up a judge that would lead them back to God and to victory over their enemy's.

Paul teaches us in Ephesians God's plan for his kingdom and the accountability we are to have is to him.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
As we read this chapter nowhere does Paul teach we are to be accountable to anyone other than him. Other than the natural accountability to the family unity.
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

As Paul directs us to submit one to another he does not leave us in the dark as to who or what we are to submit to. This goes back to the theocracy system of OT times before the kings. Wives submit yourselves to your husband as unto to Lord. Rather than use today's rendering of submit let us use the bible to understand what God defines as submit for the wife. To do this we must go all the way back to creation.
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

The Hebrew words for Help Meet, mean (an aid) (counter part) there was not subjection according to our definition. In our society we have suppressed the women to the degree that she is almost a servant. This was never God's intent. Therefor we must look differently at how we read this passage even in Ephesians.

We are given the best example ever, (the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church and gave himself for her. As he is the saviour of her. I don't know if you are following this yet or not.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

The complete understanding of the submission of wives to the husband is finally understood by the way the husband is to treat his wife. Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. I think that says it all if a husband can find a way to treat him wife as a servant or lower class of person than he in the face of the fact that Christ loved us and gave himself on the cross than he is almost hopeless.

Moving on many have taken the next passage of scripture to continue the thought pattern of the continuing reason for accountability to someone other than Christ.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Of course when one take these two verses out of context it is easy to use them to teach that God put what has come to be called the five fold ministry by many. Teaching that God put into the church these five offices of authority to perfect the saints, and to do the work of the (five fold) ministry.

But lets put these verses within the context of the chapter.
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

The first thing we must determine is to whom he is writing to. Note who Paul addresses this letter to.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Wow not to the pastor, or official elder or deacon or even bishop. To the saints, they are to walk worthy of the vocation THEY are called to.


Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Here is a thought if there is only one body, why would God divide the body by putting separate heads over various groups? Regardless of how you look at it this divides the body into separate bodies. We are the body under Christ not a pastor under Christ then the saints. To prove this point,
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
What were these gifts he gave to men?
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
These are gifts given within the body not over the body, for the equipping of the saints to do the work of ministry, and the edification of the body. Not as has been read “to perfect the saints and to minister to the saints” as has been the way we read this passage. A reviling thought, we are not to be ministered to, we are to be ministers to the world.

Much more could me said on this subject as this is just a highlight of what I have found in the study I have done on this, I don't ask that you accept this on my word alone but let the spirit of God direct you in your own study on the subject.

[Amanah]

I'm giving thought to what you said and really have not come to a conclusion on how to respond. At this point I only have a question: Do you fellowship with other believers and if so what are the circumstances?, do you meet in a church building, in a home?

I find it hard to imagine that one person could contain all the facets of the "body of Christ" for ministry.

[Praxeas]

I don't see how the word "obey" is harsh.

Recommendation. Throw away Strongs concordance and invest some money in a real lexicon like BDAG

ⓑ obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing (Hom. et al.; Diod S 4, 31, 5 τῷ χρησμῷ=the oracle; Maximus Tyr. 23, 2d τῷ θεῷ; 36, 6g τ. νόμῳ τοῦ Διός; Appian, Iber. 19 §73 θεῶ; pap; 4 Macc 10:13; 15:10; 18:1; Just., D. 9, 1; Mel., P. 93, 705; π. θεῷ Did., Gen. 225, 17; τῇ ἀδικίᾳ Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 5]) Ro 2:8 (opp. ἀπειθεῖν, as Himerius, Or. 69 [=Or. 22], 7); Gal 3:1 v.l.; 5:7; Hb 13:17; Js 3:3; 2 Cl 17:5; Dg 5:10; IRo 7:2ab; Hm 12, 3, 3.
BDAG

36.12 πείθομαιa; πειθαρχέω: to submit to authority or reason by obeying—‘to obey.’
πείθομαιa: πείθεσθε τοῖς ἡγουμένοις ὑμῶν καὶ ὑπείκετε ‘obey your leaders and submit to them’ He 13:17.
πειθαρχέω: πειθαρχήσαντάς μοι μὴ ἀνάγεσθαι ἀπὸ τῆς Κρήτης ‘you should have listened to me and not have sailed from Crete’ Ac 27:21.
TDNT


You can't just look up a series of definition from strongs and pick one.Strongs does not address issues of grammar such as whether the word is a plural, whether it's first or second person etc etc

I also don't see this as an accountability issue;. Given the word, the intent here is to obey their teaching, not obey their every whim but their teaching of God's word.

This assumes these people are qualified to begin with to teach the word

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't see how the word "obey" is harsh.

Recommendation. Throw away Strongs concordance and invest some money in a real lexicon like BDAG

ⓑ obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing (Hom. et al.; Diod S 4, 31, 5 τῷ χρησμῷ=the oracle; Maximus Tyr. 23, 2d τῷ θεῷ; 36, 6g τ. νόμῳ τοῦ Διός; Appian, Iber. 19 §73 θεῶ; pap; 4 Macc 10:13; 15:10; 18:1; Just., D. 9, 1; Mel., P. 93, 705; π. θεῷ Did., Gen. 225, 17; τῇ ἀδικίᾳ Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 5]) Ro 2:8 (opp. ἀπειθεῖν, as Himerius, Or. 69 [=Or. 22], 7); Gal 3:1 v.l.; 5:7; Hb 13:17; Js 3:3; 2 Cl 17:5; Dg 5:10; IRo 7:2ab; Hm 12, 3, 3.
BDAG

36.12 πείθομαιa; πειθαρχέω: to submit to authority or reason by obeying—‘to obey.’
πείθομαιa: πείθεσθε τοῖς ἡγουμένοις ὑμῶν καὶ ὑπείκετε ‘obey your leaders and submit to them’ He 13:17.
πειθαρχέω: πειθαρχήσαντάς μοι μὴ ἀνάγεσθαι ἀπὸ τῆς Κρήτης ‘you should have listened to me and not have sailed from Crete’ Ac 27:21.
TDNT


You can't just look up a series of definition from strongs and pick one.Strongs does not address issues of grammar such as whether the word is a plural, whether it's first or second person etc etc

I also don't see this as an accountability issue;. Given the word, the intent here is to obey their teaching, not obey their every whim but their teaching of God's word.

This assumes these people are qualified to begin with to teach the word

Actualy I don't rely on Strongs I got this from Vines although all other dictionaries I have checked back this up. Check it out the word for Obey here is not the same word in Greek as say Children obey your parents. I further check other words in the same passage to see it the translaters did in fact follow the context of the passage.

If I may this seems more the proper renering of this verse to me "pursuade them that have the oversight over you for they have been put there to oversee you as they must give an account to God for what they teach whether it be right or wrong."

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Actualy I don't rely on Strongs I got this from Vines although all other dictionaries I have checked back this up. Check it out the word for Obey here is not the same word in Greek as say Children obey your parents. I further check other words in the same passage to see it the translaters did in fact follow the context of the passage.

If I may this seems more the proper renering of this verse to me "pursuade them that have the oversight over you for they have been put there to oversee you as they must give an account to God for what they teach whether it be right or wrong."

That it's not the same word is irrelevant. I quoted some of the best Greek Lexicons you can buy.

As I said it depends on the grammar and context.

Example, para means "with" in greek. Well so does the word pros. One can't say just because they are not the same word that Pros can't mean "with". It can mean other things but again grammar and context play a lot into that.

Why would a "lay" person have to persuade those that are over them? That does not make sense. Who translate it that way anyways?

It would seem more sensical that those that teach and have the over sight are charged with persuading those that hear with sound teaching and doctrine

2Ti 1:13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Tit 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

Tit 1:13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

Tit 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
2Co 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't see how the word "obey" is harsh.

Recommendation. Throw away Strongs concordance and invest some money in a real lexicon like BDAG

You can't just look up a series of definition from strongs and pick one.Strongs does not address issues of grammar such as whether the word is a plural, whether it's first or second person etc etc

I also don't see this as an accountability issue;. Given the word, the intent here is to obey their teaching, not obey their every whim but their teaching of God's word.

That is the other issue you state a contradiction in your own teaching. Are we not to "seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling"? Then where do you get that God then commands us to "obey" the teaching of men? What if in my studies I come to a different conclution than the man/women that have set themselves up as overseer what recourse does one have, and where is the actual bible that says I must fall under their authority or be in rebelion?

As an accountability issue, then go back to my original question, where do we get the idea that we must be accountable to someone other than God?

There is one problem that you are missing, that many bible dicitionaries don't address. That is that when different Greek words are used but we use the same english we lose the meaning in many cases. As in this passage. That is where strongs comes in as it shows where different words are used. If I look up the word obey and just take that defintion as the meaning of the greek word. then I am not rightly dividing the word properly. One must dig deeper to find why and how this changes the meaning of the verse if at all.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

There is one problem that you are missing, that many bible dicitionaries don't address. That is that when different Greek words are used but we use the same english we lose the meaning in many cases. As in this passage. That is where strongs comes in as it shows where different words are used. If I look up the word obey and just take that defintion as the meaning of the greek word. then I am not rightly dividing the word properly. One must dig deeper to find why and how this changes the meaning of the verse if at all.

Again, it depends on the grammar. What tense? Gender? Case? Number? Grammar tells us how a greek word is to be used, or do you know something every Greek scholar does not.

Same word here
Act 27:21 Since they had been without food for a long time, Paul stood up among them and said, "Men, you should have listened to me and not have set sail from Crete and incurred this injury and loss.
Is Paul really saying they should have persuaded Paul? Or been persuaded BY Paul's argument?
Also consider the context
Heb 13:7 Remeand imitate their faith. mber your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life,
Here the person's receiving the actions by those who are to obey the command are in the dative case

ⓑ obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing (Hom. et al.; Diod S 4, 31, 5 τῷ χρησμῷ=the oracle; Maximus Tyr. 23, 2d τῷ θεῷ; 36, 6g τ. νόμῳ τοῦ Διός; Appian, Iber. 19 §73 θεῶ; pap; 4 Macc 10:13; 15:10; 18:1; Just., D. 9, 1; Mel., P. 93, 705; π. θεῷ Did., Gen. 225, 17; τῇ ἀδικίᾳ Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 5]) Ro 2:8 (opp. ἀπειθεῖν, as Himerius, Or. 69 [=Or. 22], 7); Gal 3:1 v.l.; 5:7; Hb 13:17; Js 3:3; 2 Cl 17:5; Dg 5:10; IRo 7:2ab; Hm 12, 3, 3.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (792). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I'm giving thought to what you said and really have not come to a conclusion on how to respond. At this point I only have a question: Do you fellowship with other believers and if so what are the circumstances?, do you meet in a church building, in a home?

I find it hard to imagine that one person could contain all the facets of the "body of Christ" for ministry.

Of course we fellowship with other believers, as we are instructed that we should "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together". As for the circimstances? that varies, the question is what differance should there be whether we meet in a church building or a home. "God does not dwell in buildings made by hands" we are his dwelling place, collectively we are the body.

I find it hard to imagine that one person could contain all the facets of the "body of Christ" for ministry

That is because you and I have been told we cannot, give me bible and verse for that fact. We have been lied to from RCC days that we must have men over us to tell us what the word means that we cannot understand all the ins and outs of God's word. And that is a lie. Or else Paul would never have written "study to show yourself approved" or "Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling", or "Follow me as I follow Christ" . There are no divisions in the body of Christ, Christ is the head and we are all members.

I might remind everyone Gods kingdom is a theocracy that means God rules it without a man in between. Paul teaches us in Ephesians that under God is Christ, under Christ is the husband, and under the husband the wife and children. This is how the word is to come down. Not God, Christ, Pastor, husband, wife, chidren.

Go back to the old testement during the time of the judges. The word was to be taught by the parents to the children. The whole set up from dwelling on their own land, to assembling just a few times a year on the feast days. Was the way God set it up and wanted it. The only times God raised up a leader was when they had strayed from his plan, then God allowed a neighboring nation to come and oppress them till they turned back to God.

When the people wanted a king, it was not the leader that was being rejected it was God.

Bottom line they were never accountable to the judge, or prophet, they were accountable to God. Further they were not subject to the judge or prophet they were subject to the law of God. The judge or prophet might turn them back to God, but that was as far as it went.

[Godsdrummer]

I might add or remind everyone, our commision is not to build church buildings or see how many people we can get to come to our church, neither is it to build denominations "did not Christ say either they are for us or agianst us" we allow doctrinal issues that have no bering on salvation separate us and divide us.

Our commision is to preach (herald) the gospel to every creature, man women and child. The gosple is not our own individual idea of what comprises salvation either. The gosple is the Good News That the Kindom of God has come.

[Aquila]

I believe it means we are to obey elders in the sense of allowing ourselves to be convinced of their labour in the Word, not in regards arbitrary rules and legalistic standards not found in Scripture.