View Full Version : Ultra Cons Quitting Church
answers
10-04-2011, 12:35 AM
How many of you know of our more conservative(judgemental) brethren that have became so set in their ways they refuse to attend a church of any kind and in turn begin to stay home and passing on church meetings and christian fellowship altogether?
Is this person backslid such as the people they have cast judgement who may have decided that their extra biblical ideologies were not in accordance with the word of God and so they decided to take their families and move on?
How much of going to church or having a church service/Bible Study actually makes you a christian? How much of a lack of it makes you backslid?
answers
10-04-2011, 12:58 AM
:reaper This would be a great thread to name drop....
maybe they would come out of the wood work and surprise some of us.
Narrow Is The Way
10-04-2011, 01:02 AM
How many of you know of our more conservative(judgemental) brethren that have became so set in their ways they refuse to attend a church of any kind and in turn begin to stay home and passing on church meetings and christian fellowship altogether?
Is this person backslid such as the people they have cast judgement who may have decided that their extra biblical ideologies were not in accordance with the word of God and so they decided to take their families and move on?
How much of going to church or having a church service/Bible Study actually makes you a christian? How much of a lack of it makes you backslid?
It anybody quits attending an Apostolic Church he is lost. I don't care if they are a Conservative or an Ultra Conservative they are still forsaking the assembling of themselves together.
answers
10-04-2011, 01:05 AM
It anybody quits attending an Apostolic Church he is lost. I don't care if they are a Conservative or an Ultra Conservative they are still forsaking the assembling of themselves together.
those were my thoughts. I must extend mercy though if one is in a location where a church does not necessarily meet their standards. Ideally their standards would be in line with God's standard but I ponder over why they don't start a church themselves and attempt to build rather than locking themselves away in fear of what the world might do to them.
This is a trend among ultra-conservatives. They call it separation. I call it backsliding.
Narrow Is The Way
10-04-2011, 01:19 AM
those were my thoughts. I must extend mercy though if one is in a location where a church does not necessarily meet their standards. Ideally their standards would be in line with God's standard but I ponder over why they don't start a church themselves and attempt to build rather than locking themselves away in fear of what the world might do to them.
This is a trend among ultra-conservatives. They call it separation. I call it backsliding.
I think every Husband and Father has an obligation to make sure his family is in a good Apostolic Church, no matter the size. Everybody needs Church.
Michael The Disciple
10-04-2011, 02:27 AM
I think every Husband and Father has an obligation to make sure his family is in a good Apostolic Church, no matter the size. Everybody needs Church.
A good Apostolic Church? So is that defined ONLY by their belief in Oneness and Acts 2:38? Or does being a "good" Apostolic Church include teaching the FULL GOSPEL in accuracy?
You know on things like the rapture? The resurrection? The gifts? Holiness and perfection? The 1000 year reign? Loving the Lord our God with ALL our heart?
Can you recommend such a Church?
It seems Paul taught that ONLY the Church that taught the truth was really the Church.
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 1 Tim. 3:15
Dagwood
10-04-2011, 05:51 AM
Based on some of the comments above (and even spread out to other threads/posts), one of the biggest problems with some people in the traditional apostolic churches, at least some within those I've known of, is this: someone, or a family, who's been "going to church" for however long start showing up less often. Thus the gossip begins. Immediately, some "saints" start backsliding that person or family without even knowing all the details (like they really need to know anyway, right?). For the other "saints" of us, all we might know is that person or family had a genuine spirit with a good heart and loved God. After all, they were faithful and transparent, not only "at church," but also away from it in the community.
"Oh, but did you see Suzie-Q (or Billy Bob)? Wearing those shorts/pants, etc?"
"Suzie-Q (or Billy Bob) just won't ever make it. They got that TV in their house and Lord knows what they watch! Can you believe it?"
"Ya know? I was walking down the street past Billy Joe's house the other day. He was working on his car and that devil music coming from his radio!" Ugh, no wonder he always struggles.
Three examples above are not word for word, however not very far from it. So, while I'm not broadbrushing (as I don't firmly believe all people of the Faith are the same way), it's an alarming issue going on among some circles of people. At some point, it has to stop. We weren't called to "call it like it is," or "well, that's just how I see it." No, it's how God sees it; we're simply His messenger, and a vessel for His message. An imperfect one at that. So, while we wonder why the "Ultra cons" (or ANYONE for that matter) are quitting church, perhaps if we stopped and listened to all the ridiculous murmurings going on within and amongst ourselves, we'd actually allow God to do His work and will without even having to call into question some of the very minute issues we create and enable. God is still working on every person He created...NONE of us "have arrived."
As God could be saying to us, "Just shut-up and listen to me," from the bottom up, and from the top down. (my blunt-version of "Be still and know that I am God..."
:)
John 1:17
10-04-2011, 06:51 AM
How many of you know of our more conservative(judgemental) brethren that have became so set in their ways they refuse to attend a church of any kind and in turn begin to stay home and passing on church meetings and christian fellowship altogether?
Is this person backslid such as the people they have cast judgement who may have decided that their extra biblical ideologies were not in accordance with the word of God and so they decided to take their families and move on?
How much of going to church or having a church service/Bible Study actually makes you a christian? How much of a lack of it makes you backslid?
This sure sounds a whole like judging folks.
Where's the mercy?
Where's the kindness?
Aquila
10-04-2011, 07:01 AM
Going to "church" doesn't make one any more a "Christian" than sitting in a garage for two hours three times a week makes one a "car".
"Church" as they call it is good for learning and corporate worship on occasions. More times than not, it's just emotional hype demanding more money to keep the "system" alive. Many believe in this "system"... I don't.
I think of Christian families on the frontier. They would settle some land and on Sunday mornings Paw would give a reading from the Bible and he'd teach his family. They'd have confession, discussions, and prayer. Periodically they’d get a circuit rider in the area and they’d gather in someone’s home or construct a small chapel.
I new a guy from Tennessee named Scott. Scott was a pastor in a small “bapticostal” church down in Tennessee and he resigned from ministry because he felt like all the “corporate” demands were killing his spirituality and even alienating his family from the congregation (politics). After resigning from the pastorate he became an advocate for house church networks and moved to Ohio. The last time I saw Scott was at a house church meeting in Dayton about three and a half years ago. At that time he hadn’t graced the doors of a traditional “church” for over 6 or 7 years. But on Saturday and sometimes Sunday afternoons…his home was packed with guests and saints from all over town. The grill would be going, kids in the swimming pool, and Scott greeting guests. Scott would open with prayer, we’d have dinner, break bread (the Lord’s Supper), sing as many songs as we desired to sing, and then Scott would sit in his recliner and open up the Scriptures to us. We’d be sitting on couches, love seats, folding chairs, some saints sitting or laying in the floor by the hearth. Scott would open up a text, the background, the context, the language…and we’d not only learn… we’d ask questions and share our understandings. EVERYONE taught EVERYONE. After the meetings got going, you’d not even know if Scott was “in charge” or not… truth is… Jesus was leading through His people. Prophetic gifts would be in operation and many times a guest would just break down and weep. None of these attending were “members”. No dues or tithes were collected. We are admonished to look out for one another and be generous to one another. A woman’s car broke down. A few brothers went in to get her some wheels that she could use AND helped her pay for her car’s repairs. It was precious. No positions. No buildings. No money. It was all Jesus. The “elders” were like spiritual fathers or mentors. They weren’t men with a “position”. They were men with a ministry. A good number of those who would attend were from different churches. They’d come to Scotts for real fellowship and participation (things they weren’t getting at their traditional churches). Scott worked as a truck driver for a local company making local deliveries during the week. If you so much as TRIED to offer him money… he’d politely turn it down and tell you who would really be able to benefit from the gift. Scott didn’t want a salary. Scott opened his home, his family, and his life to share the gospel… and he wanted nothing in return.
For me… that was “CHURCH”. This systematic meeting in a sterilized building with offices, a theater (or sanctuary), the pre-service Christian concert, the offering plates, the financial portfolios, positions, licenses, salaries, pastoral car allowances, everyone dressed in their Sunday “costumes”, that we’re all familiar with is so PHONY to me. I attend a church today that is basically a house church network. I could do without the big institutional system and just thrive in the house churches. It’s real, it’s gritty, and it’s organic Christianity.
When I was just getting into the house church movement, Scott’s house church would occasionally meet at coffee shops, malls, and parks. We’d do all the things we’d do in Scott’s house…but now it was in public. We’d invite total strangers to sit in with us and “join the conversation”. Scott’s favorite was to invite a stranger in and ask the stranger to share with us what they think about Jesus. We had a time! Lol
And there have been occasions when due to work I can’t attend anything. That’s when I break out the bread and the wine and partake in the Lord’s Supper quietly in my living room. Then I’ll study the Scriptures and pray until I feel one step closer to being conformed into the image of Christ. Sometimes I’ve included my son (when I have him) and my lady friend and her daughter (when visiting). I allow the kids to share the meaning behind the Lord’s Supper.
Does a Christian need “traditional church”? No.
But to grow and have fellowship a Christian must gather with other Christians. Those Christians can be from a traditional church, the neighborhood, a work Bible study group, a house church, or even their Christian family members. You see… where ever two or more are gathered in His name, Jesus is there in their very midst.
Folks, technically speaking… one doesn’t need the Sunday show.
I’m reminded of a quote that I dearly love,
"Let not him who worships under a steeple condemn him who worships under a chimney." ~ John Newton
John 1:17
10-04-2011, 07:07 AM
Sounds like someone thinks the church needs to install a swimming pool and a grill.
:D
Aquila
10-04-2011, 07:08 AM
Sounds like someone thinks the church needs to install a swimming pool and a grill.
:D
lol
It might be a nice start...
Fellowship is more than sitting in a row of noses to hear a Sunday morning rant.
:D
Digging4Truth
10-04-2011, 07:09 AM
Based on some of the comments above (and even spread out to other threads/posts), one of the biggest problems with some people in the traditional apostolic churches, at least some within those I've known of, is this: someone, or a family, who's been "going to church" for however long start showing up less often. Thus the gossip begins. Immediately, some "saints" start backsliding that person or family without even knowing all the details (like they really need to know anyway, right?). For the other "saints" of us, all we might know is that person or family had a genuine spirit with a good heart and loved God. After all, they were faithful and transparent, not only "at church," but also away from it in the community.
"Oh, but did you see Suzie-Q (or Billy Bob)? Wearing those shorts/pants, etc?"
"Suzie-Q (or Billy Bob) just won't ever make it. They got that TV in their house and Lord knows what they watch! Can you believe it?"
"Ya know? I was walking down the street past Billy Joe's house the other day. He was working on his car and that devil music coming from his radio!" Ugh, no wonder he always struggles.
Three examples above are not word for word, however not very far from it. So, while I'm not broadbrushing (as I don't firmly believe all people of the Faith are the same way), it's an alarming issue going on among some circles of people. At some point, it has to stop. We weren't called to "call it like it is," or "well, that's just how I see it." No, it's how God sees it; we're simply His messenger, and a vessel for His message. An imperfect one at that. So, while we wonder why the "Ultra cons" (or ANYONE for that matter) are quitting church, perhaps if we stopped and listened to all the ridiculous murmurings going on within and amongst ourselves, we'd actually allow God to do His work and will without even having to call into question some of the very minute issues we create and enable. God is still working on every person He created...NONE of us "have arrived."
As God could be saying to us, "Just shut-up and listen to me," from the bottom up, and from the top down. (my blunt-version of "Be still and know that I am God..."
:)
I wasn't going to comment on this thread because of the tone of the opening post. I just didn't like the "feel" of the way it was worded.
Then I read your post and I had to interject just a little bit.
You are so right about many things in your post.
I so tire of seeing people who walk around taking measurement of everyone around them and then when their constant measuring causes someone to no longer be able to attend then they judge one last time and say "Yeah... I've seen this coming for a while".
Yeah... you saw it coming because you helped cause it.
The interesting thing, to me, is that you have pointed out one of the big problems in the issues presented by this thread and the opening post made for a pretty good example of how that goes down.
So many see the issue... but miss the point entirely.
John 1:17
10-04-2011, 07:12 AM
lol
It might be a nice start...
Fellowship is more than sitting in a row of noses to hear a Sunday morning rant.
:D
RANT!
Reckon folks that heard your brother "Scott", might have though the same thing?
But it would have been a less formal church setting, so it would have been ok...
Digging4Truth
10-04-2011, 07:15 AM
lol
It might be a nice start...
Fellowship is more than sitting in a row of noses to hear a Sunday morning rant.
:D
At our church I have been making a push in the last 6 months for a major key to revival.
It isn't prayer... although prayer is one.
It isn't fasting... although fasting is one.
It's a sense of family.
We have had an Elders Appreciation Night put on by our youth where our youth each chose an elder and got up before the group and said why they appreciated and admire them. This was followed by fun games and good snacks and we're going to do it more often.
The importance of building a sense of family within a local congregation could not be overstated. When the hard trials come to a church body it is the sense of family that will give them added strength to come through as one.
Where there were riffs before there is now strength, unity and mutual respect.
Not just from this one event but from all the things we have done over the last 6 months people in our church who once were very gripy about just about everything the young people did are not some of their biggest fans and they support them with vigor.
But that began with continual shows of repsect from the youth and from good teaching on building relationship.
I don't know about a swimming pool... but i do plan on building a small park in the shaded around beside the church because the importance of building a sense of family in the church escapes far too many people.
Aquila
10-04-2011, 07:23 AM
At our church I have been making a push in the last 6 months for a major key to revival.
It isn't prayer... although prayer is one.
It isn't fasting... although fasting is one.
It's a sense of family.
We have had an Elders Appreciation Night put on by our youth where our youth each chose an elder and got up before the group and said why they appreciated and admire them. This was followed by fun games and good snacks and we're going to do it more often.
The importance of building a sense of family within a local congregation could not be overstated. When the hard trials come to a church body it is the sense of family that will give them added strength to come through as one.
Where there were riffs before there is now strength, unity and mutual respect.
Not just from this one event but from all the things we have done over the last 6 months people in our church who once were very gripy about just about everything the young people did are not some of their biggest fans and they support them with vigor.
But that began with continual shows of repsect from the youth and from good teaching on building relationship.
I don't know about a swimming pool... but i do plan on building a small park in the shaded around beside the church because the importance of building a sense of family in the church escapes far too many people.
:thumbsup
scotty
10-04-2011, 07:28 AM
At our church I have been making a push in the last 6 months for a major key to revival.
It isn't prayer... although prayer is one.
It isn't fasting... although fasting is one.
It's a sense of family.
We have had an Elders Appreciation Night put on by our youth where our youth each chose an elder and got up before the group and said why they appreciated and admire them. This was followed by fun games and good snacks and we're going to do it more often.
The importance of building a sense of family within a local congregation could not be overstated. When the hard trials come to a church body it is the sense of family that will give them added strength to come through as one.
Where there were riffs before there is now strength, unity and mutual respect.
Not just from this one event but from all the things we have done over the last 6 months people in our church who once were very gripy about just about everything the young people did are not some of their biggest fans and they support them with vigor.
But that began with continual shows of repsect from the youth and from good teaching on building relationship.
I don't know about a swimming pool... but i do plan on building a small park in the shaded around beside the church because the importance of building a sense of family in the church escapes far too many people.
This is awesome. I wrote a blog not too long ago on this very topic. I'm proud of where the youth are taking the church. I'm glad to see their passion for God. But I'm afraid many of them will forget or not understand where the battlefield really is and those who are still fighting there today.
Digging4Truth
10-04-2011, 07:52 AM
This is awesome. I wrote a blog not too long ago on this very topic. I'm proud of where the youth are taking the church. I'm glad to see their passion for God. But I'm afraid many of them will forget or not understand where the battlefield really is and those who are still fighting there today.
Yes sir... and that's another reason why we're doing what we're doing.
I teach the young people (and old alike) the importance of letting people know that you love and appreciate them. There are 2 reasons.
1. It reminds them.
2. It reminds you.
When our youth make a habit of speaking highly of our elders then they are reminded of the worth of those who have come ahead of us. When they have to put some thought into what they're going to say about that elder they let their mind go back and realize that all that we have was provided by these elders hard work, prayer and dedication.
When we move forward without a healthy understanding of how we got here our movement is empty and lacking in balance.
When we move forward understanding how we got here and what it took to get here our movement is rich in history, understanding, balance and respect.
We also find ourselves much more likely to consult an elder when we are at a point of decision because we have kept the field of respect freshly tilled and our view of their wisdom is keen.
Let me just say... I love what is going on at our church. God is good and so are His people.
Falla39
10-04-2011, 08:11 AM
At our church I have been making a push in the last 6 months for a major key to revival.
It isn't prayer... although prayer is one.
It isn't fasting... although fasting is one.
It's a sense of family.
We have had an Elders Appreciation Night put on by our youth where our youth each chose an elder and got up before the group and said why they appreciated and admire them. This was followed by fun games and good snacks and we're going to do it more often.
The importance of building a sense of family within a local congregation could not be overstated. When the hard trials come to a church body it is the sense of family that will give them added strength to come through as one.
Where there were riffs before there is now strength, unity and mutual respect.
Not just from this one event but from all the things we have done over the last 6 months people in our church who once were very gripy about just about everything the young people did are not some of their biggest fans and they support them with vigor.
But that began with continual shows of repsect from the youth and from good teaching on building relationship.
I don't know about a swimming pool... but i do plan on building a small park in the shaded around beside the church because the importance of building a sense of family in the church escapes far too many people.
The bolded reminded me of what our Youth did a few months ago. They designated
a Sunday service and called it "HOSS". HONORING OUR SENIOR SAINTS? The
Youth, under the direction of the Youth Pastor and wife, prepared a lovely
lunch for the senior saints in the church. Served immediately after the Sunday
service. The had white tablecloths, napkins, even a small floral arrangement
for each table. We felt like it was a banquet, seeing our young people going
to such effort to make sure we felt special...and we did.
We make BIG deals when our young people receive honors in school, graduate,
go to college (bible school, etc.). We support them when they marry or have
babies. The support is such that is is much like FAMILY! We all worship together
in Spirit and in TRUTH! We're part of the Family of GOD.
http://youtu.be/oH783EfujsM
http://youtu.be/Q1p7j3TLlyw
Falla39
aegsm76
10-04-2011, 08:15 AM
I do not know of any ultra-cons that have quit church to stay home.
I do know of several formerly ultra-cons who quit church and started very liberal "home" churches.
Digging4Truth
10-04-2011, 08:31 AM
The bolded reminded me of what our Youth did a few months ago. They designated
a Sunday service and called it "HOSS". HONORING OUR SENIOR SAINTS? The
Youth, under the direction of the Youth Pastor and wife, prepared a lovely
lunch for the senior saints in the church. Served immediately after the Sunday
service. The had white tablecloths, napkins, even a small floral arrangement
for each table. We felt like it was a banquet, seeing our young people going
to such effort to make sure we felt special...and we did.
We make BIG deals when our young people receive honors in school, graduate,
go to college (bible school, etc.). We support them when they marry or have
babies. The support is such that is is much like FAMILY! We all worship together
in Spirit and in TRUTH! We're part of the Family of GOD.
http://youtu.be/oH783EfujsM
http://youtu.be/Q1p7j3TLlyw
Falla39
That's a wonderful post Sister. These things are so very important. I believe that if more people and more churches could grasp the importance of building family in the church, there would be less fodder for threads on who quit what church.
Sarah
10-04-2011, 08:53 AM
Going to "church" doesn't make one any more a "Christian" than sitting in a garage for two hours three times a week makes one a "car".
"Church" as they call it is good for learning and corporate worship on occasions. More times than not, it's just emotional hype demanding more money to keep the "system" alive. Many believe in this "system"... I don't.
I think of Christian families on the frontier. They would settle some land and on Sunday mornings Paw would give a reading from the Bible and he'd teach his family. They'd have confession, discussions, and prayer. Periodically they’d get a circuit rider in the area and they’d gather in someone’s home or construct a small chapel.
I new a guy from Tennessee named Scott. Scott was a pastor in a small “bapticostal” church down in Tennessee and he resigned from ministry because he felt like all the “corporate” demands were killing his spirituality and even alienating his family from the congregation (politics). After resigning from the pastorate he became an advocate for house church networks and moved to Ohio. The last time I saw Scott was at a house church meeting in Dayton about three and a half years ago. At that time he hadn’t graced the doors of a traditional “church” for over 6 or 7 years. But on Saturday and sometimes Sunday afternoons…his home was packed with guests and saints from all over town. The grill would be going, kids in the swimming pool, and Scott greeting guests. Scott would open with prayer, we’d have dinner, break bread (the Lord’s Supper), sing as many songs as we desired to sing, and then Scott would sit in his recliner and open up the Scriptures to us. We’d be sitting on couches, love seats, folding chairs, some saints sitting or laying in the floor by the hearth. Scott would open up a text, the background, the context, the language…and we’d not only learn… we’d ask questions and share our understandings. EVERYONE taught EVERYONE. After the meetings got going, you’d not even know if Scott was “in charge” or not… truth is… Jesus was leading through His people. Prophetic gifts would be in operation and many times a guest would just break down and weep. None of these attending were “members”. No dues or tithes were collected. We are admonished to look out for one another and be generous to one another. A woman’s car broke down. A few brothers went in to get her some wheels that she could use AND helped her pay for her car’s repairs. It was precious. No positions. No buildings. No money. It was all Jesus. The “elders” were like spiritual fathers or mentors. They weren’t men with a “position”. They were men with a ministry. A good number of those who would attend were from different churches. They’d come to Scotts for real fellowship and participation (things they weren’t getting at their traditional churches). Scott worked as a truck driver for a local company making local deliveries during the week. If you so much as TRIED to offer him money… he’d politely turn it down and tell you who would really be able to benefit from the gift. Scott didn’t want a salary. Scott opened his home, his family, and his life to share the gospel… and he wanted nothing in return.
For me… that was “CHURCH”. This systematic meeting in a sterilized building with offices, a theater (or sanctuary), the pre-service Christian concert, the offering plates, the financial portfolios, positions, licenses, salaries, pastoral car allowances, everyone dressed in their Sunday “costumes”, that we’re all familiar with is so PHONY to me. I attend a church today that is basically a house church network. I could do without the big institutional system and just thrive in the house churches. It’s real, it’s gritty, and it’s organic Christianity.
When I was just getting into the house church movement, Scott’s house church would occasionally meet at coffee shops, malls, and parks. We’d do all the things we’d do in Scott’s house…but now it was in public. We’d invite total strangers to sit in with us and “join the conversation”. Scott’s favorite was to invite a stranger in and ask the stranger to share with us what they think about Jesus. We had a time! Lol
And there have been occasions when due to work I can’t attend anything. That’s when I break out the bread and the wine and partake in the Lord’s Supper quietly in my living room. Then I’ll study the Scriptures and pray until I feel one step closer to being conformed into the image of Christ. Sometimes I’ve included my son (when I have him) and my lady friend and her daughter (when visiting). I allow the kids to share the meaning behind the Lord’s Supper.
Does a Christian need “traditional church”? No.
But to grow and have fellowship a Christian must gather with other Christians. Those Christians can be from a traditional church, the neighborhood, a work Bible study group, a house church, or even their Christian family members. You see… where ever two or more are gathered in His name, Jesus is there in their very midst.
Folks, technically speaking… one doesn’t need the Sunday show.
I’m reminded of a quote that I dearly love,
"Let not him who worships under a steeple condemn him who worships under a chimney." ~ John Newton
We started a home missions church in our home. Some of my fondest, sweetest memories are from that time. But we soon outgrew our living room, and had to get a larger building. We took the same 'sense of family' to the new building.
I really think it's up to the leaders of the church to set the atmosphere for having church.
We attend a large church now, and I still feel that sense of family. We love, help and support each other. Just on a larger scale!
Aquila
10-04-2011, 09:01 AM
We started a home missions church in our home. Some of my fondest, sweetest memories are from that time. But we soon outgrew our living room, and had to get a larger building. We took the same 'sense of family' to the new building.
I really think it's up to the leaders of the church to set the atmosphere for having church.
We attend a large church now, and I still feel that sense of family. We love, help and support each other. Just on a larger scale!
Sometimes it can really work well. Do you guys have home fellowship groups?
How many of you know of our more conservative(judgemental) brethren that have became so set in their ways they refuse to attend a church of any kind and in turn begin to stay home and passing on church meetings and christian fellowship altogether?
Is this person backslid such as the people they have cast judgement who may have decided that their extra biblical ideologies were not in accordance with the word of God and so they decided to take their families and move on?
How much of going to church or having a church service/Bible Study actually makes you a christian? How much of a lack of it makes you backslid?
answers,
My experience is that this is not a conservative or liberal issue. It is a people issue. Folks who are always critical and unhappy with churches crosses the entire spectrum from ultra con to ultra liberal.
These are generally very critical people who will never be happy until everything is done exactly as they think it should be. A lot of these folks end up in "home fellowships" with other malcontents. (I am not saying there are not genuine situations where home fellowship groups are appropriate but I am saying a lot of them are made up of these folks I have described).
Aquila
10-04-2011, 10:48 AM
answers,
My experience is that this is not a conservative or liberal issue. It is a people issue. Folks who are always critical and unhappy with churches crosses the entire spectrum from ultra con to ultra liberal.
These are generally very critical people who will never be happy until everything is done exactly as they think it should be. A lot of these folks end up in "home fellowships" with other malcontents. (I am not saying there are not genuine situations where home fellowship groups are appropriate but I am saying a lot of them are made up of these folks I have described).
:thumbsup
Amen. Being personally involved in house churching, I can testify that there is a disproportionate number of malcontents in house churches and home fellowship groups. I myself arived in house churching feeling used and abused, with a LOT of hurt and anymosity against the traditional church. However, I've learned that individuals who foster these emotions are even unhealthy for house church groups. They bring their attitudes and personal issues with them. I had to let go of a lot... and I'm still working on it. Where I used to "hate" institutional church, today I'm just leery and distrusting. I see much good in traditional models of church... but I can testify that the fellowship and ministry in a well equiped house church blows the traditional model's I've known away. Sharing life together, discussing the deeper issues of Scripture openly, confessing sin, and praying for one another throughout the gathering sure beats what I call the "Sunday Show" where one is relegated to sitting in a congregation and is left to basically listen and cheer lead the preacher. Some folks like that. For some, that's all they know. But for me... I'd go to a traditional church... but c'mon... at least provide a home fellowship group where we do more than just shake hands and talk in the lobby for 10 minutes and call it "Christian fellowship".
Praxeas
10-04-2011, 02:31 PM
How many of you know of our more conservative(judgemental) brethren that have became so set in their ways they refuse to attend a church of any kind and in turn begin to stay home and passing on church meetings and christian fellowship altogether?
Is this person backslid such as the people they have cast judgement who may have decided that their extra biblical ideologies were not in accordance with the word of God and so they decided to take their families and move on?
How much of going to church or having a church service/Bible Study actually makes you a christian? How much of a lack of it makes you backslid?
I know of people who quit going to their church because they could not stand the pastor any more but because of years of pyschological manipulation could not bring themselves to attend any other Apostolic church, even a conservative one.
answers
10-04-2011, 03:03 PM
answers,
My experience is that this is not a conservative or liberal issue. It is a people issue. Folks who are always critical and unhappy with churches crosses the entire spectrum from ultra con to ultra liberal.
These are generally very critical people who will never be happy until everything is done exactly as they think it should be. A lot of these folks end up in "home fellowships" with other malcontents. (I am not saying there are not genuine situations where home fellowship groups are appropriate but I am saying a lot of them are made up of these folks I have described).
Given your reasoning I understand. I do find it particular though that of the cons that I know that do not attend church are the most critical of others walk with God. Is it possible to put God in so much of a box we make our ownselves strangers in his house?
Given your reasoning I understand. I do find it particular though that of the cons that I know that do not attend church are the most critical of others walk with God. Is it possible to put God in so much of a box we make our ownselves strangers in his house?
Absolutely. For those folks no one can measure up to their standard. For libs it is usually same spirit / attitude but wrapped around different issues other than a holiness "standard".
Narrow Is The Way
10-04-2011, 05:26 PM
A good Apostolic Church? So is that defined ONLY by their belief in Oneness and Acts 2:38? Or does being a "good" Apostolic Church include teaching the FULL GOSPEL in accuracy?
You know on things like the rapture? The resurrection? The gifts? Holiness and perfection? The 1000 year reign? Loving the Lord our God with ALL our heart?
Can you recommend such a Church?
It seems Paul taught that ONLY the Church that taught the truth was really the Church.
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 1 Tim. 3:15
The belief in One God and Acts 2:38 are only the foundation of a Good Apostolic Church.
Then you must go on to live a pure and holy life both within and without.
A Church that teaches these things, is a good church to go to.
Aquila
10-05-2011, 06:31 AM
Is it possible that form some personality types... smaller, more intimate, and more centered fellowships are ideal?
I mean... we often "do church" like it's one size fits all. It would appear that for the vast majority of Americans... traditional church doesn't meet their spiritual needs... so they'd rather stay home, and if believers, read their Bibles and listen to their favorite teachers over television, radio, or internet. In a sense... American Christians have been "house churching" for a couple generations now.
Aquila
10-05-2011, 06:35 AM
I love the scene in the movie, When Love Comes Softly, when the male character is sitting out on a small wooden bench (or stump?) alone and singing. His lady friend asks his daughter what he's doing... and the little girl answers that her paw is going to church. :)
That's a relationship with God.
Truthseeker
10-05-2011, 06:36 AM
I love the scene in the movie, When Love Comes Softly, when the male character is sitting out on a small wooden bench (or stump?) alone singing and his lady friend asks his daughter what he's doing... and she answers that he's going to church. :)
That's a relationship with God.
Singing by yourself is going to church? Now I've heard everything!:heeheehee
Orthodoxy
10-05-2011, 06:38 AM
answers,
My experience is that this is not a conservative or liberal issue. It is a people issue. Folks who are always critical and unhappy with churches crosses the entire spectrum from ultra con to ultra liberal.
These are generally very critical people who will never be happy until everything is done exactly as they think it should be. A lot of these folks end up in "home fellowships" with other malcontents. (I am not saying there are not genuine situations where home fellowship groups are appropriate but I am saying a lot of them are made up of these folks I have described).
Yes, I've seen groups from both sides start house churching, liberal and conservative.
Orthodoxy
10-05-2011, 06:44 AM
I love the scene in the movie, When Love Comes Softly, when the male character is sitting out on a small wooden bench (or stump?) alone and singing. His lady friend asks his daughter what he's doing... and the little girl answers that her paw is going to church. :)
That's a relationship with God.
Aquila, I have to disagree. Being alone is not going to church. That's meditation.
Also, going to an unorganized house church without biblical elders who oversee the group should not be considered going to church either. That's a Bible study.
What would the apostles say?
Truthseeker
10-05-2011, 06:46 AM
Aquila, I have to disagree. Being alone is not going to church. That's meditation.
Also, going to an unorganized house church without biblical elders who oversee the group should not be considered going to church either. That's a Bible study.
What would the apostles say?
:thumbsup
Reminds of the time this lady told me "this is my preacher" refering to a book she had, i think it was christian scientist or something.
Aquila
10-05-2011, 07:56 AM
Singing by yourself is going to church? Now I've heard everything!:heeheehee
lol
What's wrong with a personal relationship with God? Wasn't that how David "churched" when he was a shepherd boy?
Aquila
10-05-2011, 08:00 AM
Aquila, I have to disagree. Being alone is not going to church. That's meditation.
I see your angle. To "church" is to assemble with other believers. But... does that mean a pioneer will lose their soul if they have no one to worship with or aren't spiritually at peace worshiping with the assembly he could attend? I don't think so. Imagine being the only Apostolic in a town hundreds of miles from any Pentecostal type of church. In this town are nothing but Presbyterian churches. Do you go? Or do you maintain your walk with God personally?
Also, going to an unorganized house church without biblical elders who oversee the group should not be considered going to church either. That's a Bible study.
What would the apostles say?
I agree. However, we might differ on what a biblical elder is. An elder needs no ecclesiastical "position"... he must be a spiritual father and mentor that is recognized by the body.
Orthodoxy
10-05-2011, 05:28 PM
I see your angle. To "church" is to assemble with other believers. But... does that mean a pioneer will lose their soul if they have no one to worship with or aren't spiritually at peace worshiping with the assembly he could attend? I don't think so.
No, of course the pioneer would not lose his soul if there were no other believers to assemble with. But that is an exceptional and less-than-ideal situation. The normative, biblical pattern for spiritual growth is to assemble with the Body.
Imagine being the only Apostolic in a town hundreds of miles from any Pentecostal type of church. In this town are nothing but Presbyterian churches. Do you go? Or do you maintain your walk with God personally?
Well, that's an interesting question... :heeheehee Two points:
(1) I am not an "Apostolic" as most people on this forum understand the term. So I have no idea how I would think or act if I were one.
(2) Although I am not Presbyterian either, I would choose to fellowship with the Presbyterians in a heartbeat if that were my only other choice.
I agree. However, we might differ on what a biblical elder is. An elder needs no ecclesiastical "position"... he must be a spiritual father and mentor that is recognized by the body.
Yes, and an elder must also have the authority to discipline and/or expel members for unrepentant behavior. Not quite sure what you mean about "ecclesiastical position."
Praxeas
10-05-2011, 07:28 PM
Singing by yourself is going to church? Now I've heard everything!:heeheehee
lol
What's wrong with a personal relationship with God? Wasn't that how David "churched" when he was a shepherd boy?
Aquila does this all the time. Ignores what you said and puts words in your mouth
Aquila
10-06-2011, 06:21 AM
No, of course the pioneer would not lose his soul if there were no other believers to assemble with. But that is an exceptional and less-than-ideal situation. The normative, biblical pattern for spiritual growth is to assemble with the Body.
Well, that's an interesting question... :heeheehee Two points:
(1) I am not an "Apostolic" as most people on this forum understand the term. So I have no idea how I would think or act if I were one.
(2) Although I am not Presbyterian either, I would choose to fellowship with the Presbyterians in a heartbeat if that were my only other choice.
Yes, and an elder must also have the authority to discipline and/or expel members for unrepentant behavior. Not quite sure what you mean about "ecclesiastical position."
I too believe an elder should have authority to discipline and guide the church. I do not believe it has to be a licensed, salaried, registered, denominational position with a tax exemption status. If a man is recognized by his community of faith as being a trusted elder, meeting the biblical requirements stated in the Epistles, he's an elder.
I also feel that Scripture emphasizes how an elder runs their home... not as a qualification for a spiritual CEO position. But because in practice an elder is a spiritual father and mentor. The traditional church is structured like a corporation. I believe churches should be structured like a family.
Sister Alvear
10-06-2011, 09:48 AM
In Communist prisons christians forget brands and all pray together....I once hear Richard Wurmbrand say...yeah...and for communion they held up empty hands and broke nothing...yet they all wept in the presence of the Lord....
mfblume
10-06-2011, 10:33 AM
I know ultra cons who left a pentecostal church since they thought it was too worldly and went instead to a baptist church that held strict and high dress standards. lololol
Aquila
10-06-2011, 02:35 PM
In Communist prisons christians forget brands and all pray together....I once hear Richard Wurmbrand say...yeah...and for communion they held up empty hands and broke nothing...yet they all wept in the presence of the Lord....
:thumbsup
Aquila
10-06-2011, 02:35 PM
I know ultra cons who left a pentecostal church since they thought it was too worldly and went instead to a baptist church that held strict and high dress standards. lololol
Wow... lol
Sabby
10-06-2011, 02:49 PM
It anybody quits attending an Apostolic Church he is lost. I don't care if they are a Conservative or an Ultra Conservative they are still forsaking the assembling of themselves together.
WHOA!
NisW, you are funny!
Sabby
10-06-2011, 02:54 PM
WHOA!
NisW, you are funny!
What do YOU mean by assembling?
Do you mean denominational assembling, christian ACE school assembling, potluck assembling, footwashing assembling, communion assembling, after church fellowship or going to the same building to hear the same preacher?
Sister Alvear
10-06-2011, 02:59 PM
God's body is very big....much bigger than the UPCI although they are a part of it.
Jacob's Ladder
10-06-2011, 05:20 PM
It anybody quits attending an Apostolic Church he is lost. I don't care if they are a Conservative or an Ultra Conservative they are still forsaking the assembling of themselves together.
What about if they're moderate or liberal churches? Is that person lost too if they leave those Apostolic churches?
Sister Alvear
10-06-2011, 05:22 PM
Not all Apostolic churches are the some...The word Apostolic saves NO ONE....
Aquila
10-07-2011, 06:22 AM
I think Jesus was neither liberal or conservative. Jesus was a radical. The liberals (Sadducees) and conservatives (Pharisees) both hated Jesus.
pelathais
10-07-2011, 12:30 PM
How many of you know of our more conservative(judgemental) brethren that have became so set in their ways they refuse to attend a church of any kind and in turn begin to stay home and passing on church meetings and christian fellowship altogether?
Is this person backslid such as the people they have cast judgement who may have decided that their extra biblical ideologies were not in accordance with the word of God and so they decided to take their families and move on?
How much of going to church or having a church service/Bible Study actually makes you a christian? How much of a lack of it makes you backslid?
My wife's family is replete with examples of this (the ultra-UC who refuses any fellowship). Ditching a meeting or even church entirely is the time-honored way of saying, "I'm better than you!"
Esther
10-07-2011, 02:50 PM
It anybody quits attending an Apostolic Church he is lost. I don't care if they are a Conservative or an Ultra Conservative they are still forsaking the assembling of themselves together.
What scripture backs up this statement?
vBulletin® v3.8.5, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.