View Full Version : A Wrecked Church!
StillStanding
08-04-2012, 06:20 AM
I thought you weren't posting on this thread!:icecream:happydance
Wife eased up on me! :)
Rapture 1
08-04-2012, 10:55 AM
Wife eased up on me! :)
Tell her to go shopping, you have things to do!!!!!!
StillStanding
08-04-2012, 10:56 AM
Tell her to go shopping, you have things to do!!!!!!
:thumbsup:heeheehee
Rapture 1
08-04-2012, 11:43 AM
We found an attorney who will take this case but we don't have the funds to pay him. Found out money that was collected for the Church to buy some property in 2006 somehow the deed is in the name of the deceased Pastor and the one who is saying he is the new Pastor. May not be the only property like this. Makes a person wonder what else is askew.
Who collected the money to buy this property that is in the deceased Pastor's name, and, is there more property involved? So, the "boyfriend" owns some of the property, and, of course if he marries the "daughter" he gets all of it. What happens if he gets a new "girlfriend"? What will the daughter do then? WOW!! You can't make up this stuff. Forget watching "DALLAS"!!!
RandyWayne
08-04-2012, 12:19 PM
Who collected the money to buy this property that is in the deceased Pastor's name, and, is there more property involved? So, the "boyfriend" owns some of the property, and, of course if he marries the "daughter" he gets all of it. What happens if he gets a new "girlfriend"? What will the daughter do then? WOW!! You can't make up this stuff. Forget watching "DALLAS"!!!
Gee thanks. Now I have THAT theme running through my head.
Just watch. In two weeks the question everyone will be asking is "Who shot <name of pastors daughter boyfriend>?"
HeavenBound
08-04-2012, 03:43 PM
Who collected the money to buy this property that is in the deceased Pastor's name, and, is there more property involved? So, the "boyfriend" owns some of the property, and, of course if he marries the "daughter" he gets all of it. What happens if he gets a new "girlfriend"? What will the daughter do then? WOW!! You can't make up this stuff. Forget watching "DALLAS"!!!
The deceased Pastor ask the Church members to contribute the money so the Church could buy the property. Not sure if there is more that is not in the Church's name. Checking into that. My faith is being very much put to the test at this point.
rosie
08-04-2012, 04:09 PM
:girlytantrumSome of you may be familiar with this situation involving a pastor who recently passed away. He was a strong leader and didn't have a board. All decisions and finances were handled by him and his family. His daughter handled the finances of the church, some of which were invested to buy rental homes for extra income.
The pastor didn't have a successor in place as he held all power until he passed, even though he could hardly speak or walk in his final months. When he became incapacitated, his daughter held full power.
Well...a church vote was held for the daughter's choice to be pastor, and he was voted down. Last week she sent certified letters to all the families that weren't in agreement with her (a majority), and told them they were no longer welcome and were no longer considered members of the church. She essentially kicked them out of the church!
IMO, her strategy is to have another vote with the remaining families that voted with her! How sad to manipulate a good group of people to get what you want!
Anyway, last week she decided to give herself a $200 a week raise as church manager. She didn't need to ask for permission as she has absolute power to do as she pleases.
I hate to see what was once a great influential Apostolic church decline to this type of behavior and power struggle! A truly sad story of how absolute power can absolutely corrupt! This happens even in an Acts 2:38, Oneness, strict standards type church.
The church is no longer tied to any Apostolic organization, so there in nobody to help them get thru this problem. Other pastors that were close friends to the church are afraid to get in the middle of this church fight!
:girlytantrum
Rosie, you are a woman of few words for your first post! (and I have not met many of those in my life) Welcome to AFF.
Rapture 1
08-04-2012, 07:50 PM
:girlytantrum
Rosie, a lot has happened since then. (And continues to happen every day) They did have another vote, men only, by invitation only. Women were not allowed on the property that night. It was 12-2, favoring Bro DF, (of course). It was overseen and carried out by the "Bishop" of OB. Since he won by such a landslide, there is going to be a big celebration Aug 25. Everyone is invited (although the "Bishop" from OB had already said in one of his rules, that no visitor, that has a home church, is allowed there.) Oh well, I guess being a Bishop you can make up the rules as you go along. I never did understand (as old as I am), what the requirements are to being a Bishop. I have only known a couple, and I always thought it was when a preacher gets so only he can't preach, and that may be right. Someone please let me know.
Amanah
08-05-2012, 05:13 AM
To be a bishop
I think if you are still married to your original wife
and your kids are still in church,
and you exhibit the fruit of the Spirit
and are a teacher of The Word of God.
then you are in the realm of bishop.
Rapture 1
08-05-2012, 06:33 AM
Rosie, a lot has happened since then. (And continues to happen every day) They did have another vote, men only, by invitation only. Women were not allowed on the property that night. It was 12-2, favoring Bro DF, (of course). It was overseen and carried out by the "Bishop" of OB. Since he won by such a landslide, there is going to be a big celebration Aug 25. Everyone is invited (although the "Bishop" from OB had already said in one of his rules, that no visitor, that has a home church, is allowed there.) Oh well, I guess being a Bishop you can make up the rules as you go along. I never did understand (as old as I am), what the requirements are to being a Bishop. I have only known a couple, and I always thought it was when a preacher gets so old that he can't preach, and that may be right. Someone please let me know. :foottap
StillStanding
08-05-2012, 07:39 AM
Rosie, a lot has happened since then. (And continues to happen every day) They did have another vote, men only, by invitation only. Women were not allowed on the property that night. It was 12-2, favoring Bro DF, (of course). It was overseen and carried out by the "Bishop" of OB. Since he won by such a landslide, there is going to be a big celebration Aug 25. Everyone is invited (although the "Bishop" from OB had already said in one of his rules, that no visitor, that has a home church, is allowed there.) Oh well, I guess being a Bishop you can make up the rules as you go along. I never did understand (as old as I am), what the requirements are to being a Bishop. I have only known a couple, and I always thought it was when a preacher gets so only he can't preach, and that may be right. Someone please let me know.
So.....I big celebration of the new pastor (who won by a landslide) is planned, but nobody from other churches are welcome? This just gets stranger!
I guess the 18 people still at the church will party hardy! Maybe they can share a cake.
Rapture 1
08-05-2012, 08:16 AM
So.....I big celebration of the new pastor (who won by a landslide) is planned, but nobody from other churches are welcome? This just gets stranger!
I guess the 18 people still at the church will party hardy! Maybe they can share a cake.
Well, the "bishop", when he read the new ''rules of the church" a month ago, said, No one is allowed at the church that has a home church, if you have a home church, then go to it! So that being said, how is anyone to come? There are only 18-20 there. The choir from HS, Ms is supposed to sing. And, a preacher, who has big ties to UPC, is supposed to do his thing, (whatever that is, to make it legal). I don't know why, nothing has been done legal yet!! I cannot understand why any church, esp an apostolic church will condone this. And any PREACHER that does attend, something is wrong with them. I would not have any confidence in him or her. Even tho some people say a lot of this is gossip, the parties involved (Bro DF, the "daughter" some of her family and very few friends, and everyone else, know better. It's going to be an interesting party!!!
Sweet Pea
08-05-2012, 08:26 AM
Well, the "bishop", when he read the new ''rules of the church" a month ago, said, No one is allowed at the church that has a home church, if you have a home church, then go to it! So that being said, how is anyone to come? There are only 18-20 there. The choir from HS, Ms is supposed to sing. And, a preacher, who has big ties to UPC, is supposed to do his thing, (whatever that is, to make it legal). I don't know why, nothing has been done legal yet!! I cannot understand why any church, esp an apostolic church will condone this. And any PREACHER that does attend, something is wrong with them. I would not have any confidence in him or her. Even tho some people say a lot of this is gossip, the parties involved (Bro DF, the "daughter" some of her family and very few friends, and everyone else, know better. It's going to be an interesting party!!!
Isn't it possible that he meant for regular services? NOT special services?
Rapture 1
08-05-2012, 08:50 AM
Isn't it possible that he meant for regular services? NOT special services?
Could be, but some of the other rules, I can't figure! No gossiping( how is that possible?), and no meeting together outside of church.:smack
HeavenBound
08-05-2012, 11:54 AM
:foottap
The date for the Pastor Installation Service is Aug.24th at 7pm according to the Church bulletin I received last Sunday. The Dixie Echoes are singing there today at 2PM. Counting my husband and myself there were 27 people at Grey Road last Sunday. That was also counting Bro.DF, Sister KK, and Bishop DC. The other members of this Church had more at the worship they held at the motel6. The cream of the crop has a more moving service in the meeting room than the dry service I attended in this very nice building. Of course I didn't stay through the entire service and listen to Bishop DC talk about the devils who are posting on here. That's what his sermon was about. He forgot to mention the devil's that were sitting there listening to him and himself.
AreYouReady?
08-05-2012, 01:24 PM
Devils eh? We will let Christ decide who the devils are.
My own personal opinion is:
If I were a member of that church, I'd count my monetary losses and walk away in a heartbeat.
Anybody who has to go to the great lengths to steal from the people like it appears these folks have done deserve an empty building.
RandyWayne
08-05-2012, 01:27 PM
Devils eh? We will let Christ decide who the devils are.
My own personal opinion is:
If I were a member of that church, I'd count my monetary losses and walk away in a heartbeat.
Anybody who has to go to the great lengths to steal from the people like it appears these folks have done deserve an empty building.
Ya, this is the part I always find so amazing. The difficulty that so many people have in simply walking/running/swimming away from a sinking (or sunk!) ship. But then again I always marvel at women who stay with horribly abusive boyfriends and husbands, so it's probably the exact same dynamics.
AreYouReady?
08-05-2012, 01:58 PM
Some people must like abuse...or they sanction what those two have done to a body of believers.
I can tell right now is that only the lawyers will get the money.
FWIW: The best thing people can do is to take what money they have and start a new fellowship. Elect a new board and find themselves a God-fearing Pastor who believes in a five-fold ministry. Pray and ask God to bless their new fellowship with an outpouring of His Spirit. Enjoy fellowship with one another.
Leave that empty building behind because Jesus is coming soon and what God-fearing body of believers want to be found in a place like that when He returns?
Rapture 1
08-05-2012, 04:44 PM
The date for the Pastor Installation Service is Aug.24th at 7pm according to the Church bulletin I received last Sunday. The Dixie Echoes are singing there today at 2PM. Counting my husband and myself there were 27 people at Grey Road last Sunday. That was also counting Bro.DF, Sister KK, and Bishop DC. The other members of this Church had more at the worship they held at the motel6. The cream of the crop has a more moving service in the meeting room than the dry service I attended in this very nice building. Of course I didn't stay through the entire service and listen to Bishop DC talk about the devils who are posting on here. That's what his sermon was about. He forgot to mention the devil's that were sitting there listening to him and himself.
I had heard there were about 20 there last week. I guess that kid couldn't count that high. Oh, well, at the "other church", there were about 40 last week and today about 50. They had a good service with lots of singing, shouting and good fellowship. And good preaching by Bro SG. He use to pastor years ago in Dyersburg. These people haven't been fed in a very long time. They are like a bird out of a cage. The people that are still at Grey Rd have a problem. Why would anyone want to sit through a DRY service,( and give your money), and listen to someone like "Bishop DC", talk such hate messages. I'm glad most of the people have gone, and are enjoying themselves. The 10 that have remained with the "bad guys", I think, are still looking for a miracle. And, of course that could happen, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.:happydance
Rapture 1
08-05-2012, 05:20 PM
Some people must like abuse...or they sanction what those two have done to a body of believers.
I can tell right now is that only the lawyers will get the money.
FWIW: The best thing people can do is to take what money they have and start a new fellowship. Elect a new board and find themselves a God-fearing Pastor who believes in a five-fold ministry. Pray and ask God to bless their new fellowship with an outpouring of His Spirit. Enjoy fellowship with one another.
Leave that empty building behind because Jesus is coming soon and what God-fearing body of believers want to be found in a place like that when He returns?
I do agree with you, life is too short. I believe Jesus is coming soon! Not only that, most at Grey Rd are not getting any younger. They deserve, like everyone, to have a place to go and worship and feel free, without someone "preaching" to you about everything you're supposedly doing wrong, and then saying, "I don't care if you don't like me".:foottap
Rapture 1
08-05-2012, 05:28 PM
Devils eh? We will let Christ decide who the devils are.
My own personal opinion is:
If I were a member of that church, I'd count my monetary losses and walk away in a heartbeat.
Anybody who has to go to the great lengths to steal from the people like it appears these folks have done deserve an empty building.
I agree!! And most have left, and having services in a nice place. If "they" had of let the first vote stand (no to Bro DF), it would have been a smooth transition. They would have had a new pastor now, with about 70 in the congregation. BUT, KK (the daughter) and Bro DF would not have been in charge. Now then, they don't have any singers and only an organ player. And few members. Oh well, as they say, you get what you pay for!!:laffatu
I think when all of the dust settles everything will be fine. If the folks who have been alienated have the right attitude towards God they will realize that buildings are temporary and will crumble some day but their relationship with God is on an eternal foundation that will not.
It is easier said than done but those folks will have to understand that they were in that church for a season and that season is over. That God is still on the throne, that they will just be enjoying his word and Spirit in a new physical meeting place.
The danger is not to become bitter or resentful over the behavior of imperfect human beings or the loss of material things like a building no matter how much time, energy, and money you may have in it. You have to remember that all of that was done for God and the disposition of it is in his hands.
Steve Epley
08-05-2012, 10:23 PM
I think when all of the dust settles everything will be fine. If the folks who have been alienated have the right attitude towards God they will realize that buildings are temporary and will crumble some day but their relationship with God is on an eternal foundation that will not.
It is easier said than done but those folks will have to understand that they were in that church for a season and that season is over. That God is still on the throne, that they will just be enjoying his word and Spirit in a new physical meeting place.
The danger is not to become bitter or resentful over the behavior of imperfect human beings or the loss of material things like a building no matter how much time, energy, and money you may have in it. You have to remember that all of that was done for God and the disposition of it is in his hands.
Remember the money you gave you gave it to the Lord and he keeps perfect records. Just go on with your life and close the door on the past.
StillStanding
08-06-2012, 07:36 AM
I think when all of the dust settles everything will be fine. If the folks who have been alienated have the right attitude towards God they will realize that buildings are temporary and will crumble some day but their relationship with God is on an eternal foundation that will not.
It is easier said than done but those folks will have to understand that they were in that church for a season and that season is over. That God is still on the throne, that they will just be enjoying his word and Spirit in a new physical meeting place.
The danger is not to become bitter or resentful over the behavior of imperfect human beings or the loss of material things like a building no matter how much time, energy, and money you may have in it. You have to remember that all of that was done for God and the disposition of it is in his hands.
Well said! Praying for this wonderful group of people!
StillStanding
08-06-2012, 07:37 AM
Remember the money you gave you gave it to the Lord and he keeps perfect records. Just go on with your life and close the door on the past.
Good advice, as always!
Steve Epley
08-06-2012, 08:01 AM
Good advice, as always!
If y'all have 40 -50 folks meeting find a pastor and start buidling another work for the name of the Lord.
Sister Alvear
08-06-2012, 08:17 AM
The most important thing is to keep our spirits right...life will always bring us ups and downs and even curve balls...Hold your head up ...be prayerful and always be a christian...Right will come out on top in the end...
Rapture 1
08-06-2012, 08:47 AM
Remember the money you gave you gave it to the Lord and he keeps perfect records. Just go on with your life and close the door on the past.
Well said, couldn't have said it better!!!
StillStanding
08-06-2012, 09:14 AM
The most important thing is to keep our spirits right...life will always bring us ups and downs and even curve balls...Hold your head up ...be prayerful and always be a christian...Right will come out on top in the end...
:thumbsup
OHappyDay
08-06-2012, 01:57 PM
I am not related to J family and I have nothing personally to gain by the posts that I have made. I simply tried to "right" some obvious, glaring "wrongs". There are several more that are on the site but that is for another post. My heart is with the elderly saints of GR. They have had to endure way more than anyone should. What they have had to endure and are enduring to me is personally sickening. Although many have walked away, I am still concerned for most of them. Because there are men among them that do not have their best interest at heart.
Rapture 1
08-06-2012, 02:49 PM
I am not related to J family and I have nothing personally to gain by the posts that I have made. I simply tried to "right" some obvious, glaring "wrongs". There are several more that are on the site but that is for another post. My heart is with the elderly saints of GR. They have had to endure way more than anyone should. What they have had to endure and are enduring to me is personally sickening. Although many have walked away, I am still concerned for most of them. Because there are men among them that do not have their best interest at heart.
You are so right, but what can they, and anyone else do about it? All they can do, is go on with their lives as best they can. They are heart broken, yes! There are 5 in particular, elderly, that some of us are very concerned about. They, and others are very heartbroken. It's helps them to know that some care. The elderly don't know which way to turn and are looking for someone to lead them. One thing that hurts so much for them, is that they have been let down so badly by the "J" family, and, some "preachers", who have, in their way of thinking, run them off by not speaking up for them. Again, most will get on with their lives. The "ones left" at Grey Rd, I believe, could care less about what happens to them. Some will go on, but die of a broken heart as sure as loosing a lifelong spouse or child. All we can do is pray for them and try to be a "friend"!
OHappyDay
08-06-2012, 03:25 PM
32) The * family, at least the ones with *'s still on their names, have not let the people down. It is the daughter, her family and the "boyfriend" that has done the "letting down", the harm and the pain that it has caused. 33.) If you look at the daughter's friends, some of them come out of a church where this has already happened once before. In fact, most of this is right out of the pastor from Arlington's script. 34.) Because of the daughter's threat to sue and because of certain legal standing, publically it tied many ministers/preachers hands. So, what could be done had to be done behind the scenes. The ** people that left hopefully understand this legal dilemma and do not hold it against these preachers/ministers. 35) It is also clearly apparent that there was a "mole" inside the group of people at the ** church that was feeding back information to the daughter which allowed her to stay one step ahead of the ones that left. The "mole" is clearly two-faced. Showing one face to the people and another face to the daughter.
Rapture 1
08-06-2012, 04:09 PM
32) The * family, at least the ones with *'s still on their names, have not let the people down. It is the daughter, her family and the "boyfriend" that has done the "letting down", the harm and the pain that it has caused. 33.) If you look at the daughter's friends, some of them come out of a church where this has already happened once before. In fact, most of this is right out of the pastor from Arlington's script. 34.) Because of the daughter's threat to sue and because of certain legal standing, publically it tied many ministers/preachers hands. So, what could be done had to be done behind the scenes. The ** people that left hopefully understand this legal dilemma and do not hold it against these preachers/ministers. 35) It is also clearly apparent that there was a "mole" inside the group of people at the ** church that was feeding back information to the daughter which allowed her to stay one step ahead of the ones that left. The "mole" is clearly two-faced. Showing one face to the people and another face to the daughter.
I agree with everything you say. I know it to be true, but, I have a problem, and some others do also, about the preacher's hands being tied. I can't understand that. I know what you are saying, but, I would defend ANYONE who was being wronged in this way. If I were a preacher, even if I had to loose my license, I would defend them in every kind of way!! The ministers and the "*" family could, if they had wanted to,have stepped in and taken control of the situation. It's hard to believe that they are that afraid of the sister and boyfriend, and SUPERCOP and others. (Oh, yes, you're right about the "mole" also.) I do need to say, tho, that everyone does still love the "*" family (the ones with the "*" still on their name), and I think thats one thing that hurts so much. It's like being let down by your family!!
StillStanding
08-07-2012, 08:03 AM
I agree with everything you say. I know it to be true, but, I have a problem, and some others do also, about the preacher's hands being tied. I can't understand that. I know what you are saying, but, I would defend ANYONE who was being wronged in this way. If I were a preacher, even if I had to loose my license, I would defend them in every kind of way!! The ministers and the "J" family could, if they had wanted to,have stepped in and taken control of the situation. It's hard to believe that they are that afraid of the sister and boyfriend, and SUPERCOP and others. (Oh, yes, you're right about the "mole" also.) I do need to say, tho, that everyone does still love the "J" family (the ones with the "J" still on their name), and I think thats one thing that hurts so much. It's like being let down by your family!!
Perhaps the bishop's sons and other family members were threatened if they tried to intervene! It's one thing to want to help, but another if you would face a lawsuit that could cost you lots of $$$.
I'm still perplexed how SUPERCOP got involved! It's my understanding that he refused to talk to any of the saints, and never listened to their point of view. Maybe the former pastor told him his personal wishes, and he was merely following his direction. If true, it shouldn't have mattered anyway when it went against the will of the people. I'm just trying to figure out the bizarre mindset.
Rapture 1
08-07-2012, 02:18 PM
Perhaps the bishop's sons and other family members were threatened if they tried to intervene! It's one thing to want to help, but another if you would face a lawsuit that could cost you lots of $$$.
I'm still perplexed how SUPERCOP got involved! It's my understanding that he refused to talk to any of the saints, and never listened to their point of view. Maybe the former pastor told him his personal wishes, and he was merely following his direction. If true, it shouldn't have mattered anyway when it went against the will of the people. I'm just trying to figure out the bizarre mindset.
That's his character. It happend at the "A" church. He hasn't even been in church long, even tho he grew up apostolic. He has been given authority to do everthing he's doing. How many times have you heard of a sweet couple who never caused anyone any problem, and no threat to the church whatsoever, being escorted out the door when they came in and told by "the cop" and Bro DF, that if they don't leave quietly they will call 911? Everyone who knows this couple, knows they had nothing to fear from them. It was a matter of showing authority. And, you may be right about the suing part with the family. I have not thought of that, but, it's hard to believe "she" would go so far as to sue her brothers. But, then, I don't know many people who REALLY know her. Also, when "the cop" was put on the board, the late pastor asked from the pulpit (which wasn't long ago) how many want ****** to be on the board? A few hands went up. The church didn't vote on it. So, that's how he got on the "board". And of course, it helps, that he is a "friend" of the daughter. So, I ask you, why would anyone want to stick around, even tho it kills them to leave?
OHappyDay
08-07-2012, 02:56 PM
36) If the * family, the ones with *'s still on their names, are like family as have been stated then treat them like family and give them a chance to explain themselves in person, face-to-face. I am sure that there has been PLENTY of things that have happened behind the scenes and over a long period of time of which you may not aware. I am sure that they would be open to a face-to-face sit down because they dearly love the ** family and are close, I mean "family" close, to many of them.
Rapture 1
08-07-2012, 03:02 PM
36) If the J family, the ones with J's still on their names, are like family as have been stated then treat them like family and give them a chance to explain themselves in person, face-to-face. I am sure that there has been PLENTY of things that have happened behind the scenes and over a long period of time of which you may not aware. I am sure that they would be open to a face-to-face sit down because they dearly love the GR family and are close, I mean "family" close, to many of them.
Everyone is gone now, except the few remaining, so, there is no one to discuss this with the "family". People's memories will die with the older ones and the younger ones will soon forget. Besides, most of the "older ones don't believe (that they are dearly loved by the "family"). I know, I've talked with them. If you know them, you can ask them. They love the "J" family, but they do not believe their love is returned. Believe me, they know PLENTY of things behind the scenes. Why do you think so MANY people have left over the years?
HeavenBound
08-07-2012, 07:33 PM
That's his character. It happend at the "A" church. He hasn't even been in church long, even tho he grew up apostolic. He has been given authority to do everthing he's doing. How many times have you heard of a sweet couple who never caused anyone any problem, and no threat to the church whatsoever, being escorted out the door when they came in and told by "the cop" and Bro DF, that if they don't leave quietly they will call 911? Everyone who knows this couple, knows they had nothing to fear from them. It was a matter of showing authority. And, you may be right about the suing part with the family. I have not thought of that, but, it's hard to believe "she" would go so far as to sue her brothers. But, then, I don't know many people who REALLY know her. Also, when "the cop" was put on the board, the late pastor asked from the pulpit (which wasn't long ago) how many want ****** to be on the board? A few hands went up. The church didn't vote on it. So, that's how he got on the "board". And of course, it helps, that he is a "friend" of the daughter. So, I ask you, why would anyone want to stick around, even tho it kills them to leave?
They only did this to that couple because they knew they could intimidate them. I was sent a letter and told not to come back on the property and I went back and nobody said anything to me. The people who left have the right to go to court to get their Church building back. They have not gave up their rights, but their Leader doesn't think they should pursue it, Personally I think he shoud not be advising them to give up their birth right. He's already dividing the people at this new place, some have left him and are going some where else. I think the mole is still causing the flock problems.
AreYouReady?
08-07-2012, 07:41 PM
...what a mess...
stony ground
08-08-2012, 12:14 AM
I just have one question: has any of the tale-bearing here in this thread helped the situation at the church? IMHO, this thread has gone from genuine concern to gossip and cheap-shots.
I'm not accusing anyone of lying, because I don't know the whole story...but we are only getting one side.
StillStanding
08-08-2012, 07:49 AM
The fine people that were essentially kicked out of their own church are simply going through the process of shock, anger, then acceptance. They are now angry and need an outlet to vent. Accepting what has happened will be a drawn out process. My prayers are with them as they move on to another chapter of their life.
This is like a divorce. They were jilted and the ex-spouse has taken 100% of the property and assets. A travesty like this takes time to get past.
I doubt there was genuine concern at all.
I just have one question: has any of the tale-bearing here in this thread helped the situation at the church? IMHO, this thread has gone from genuine concern to gossip and cheap-shots.
I'm not accusing anyone of lying, because I don't know the whole story...but we are only getting one side.
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 09:03 AM
I just have one question: has any of the tale-bearing here in this thread helped the situation at the church? IMHO, this thread has gone from genuine concern to gossip and cheap-shots.
I'm not accusing anyone of lying, because I don't know the whole story...but we are only getting one side.
The "discussion" of this situation hasn't helped, because the damage had already been done. "Heaven Bound" was the only one with guts to speak up. This could have been prevented at the first vote against the "boyfriend", but instead, they let him keep getting up, leading the services, preaching, and having his and the daughter's preacher friends to "preach". They all sit back waiting for something to happen and it did. Another vote!! Invitation only, for men. The rest is history. Talk about "talebearing", you can't make up the stuff that has gone on there. It's all about POWER, MONEY,SEX, you name it!And, everyone that goes there know it!! Hopefully, this will make people aware that these things can happen. Even tho this will happen again somewhere, there are still some great men of God ministers who preach the apostolic truth that have great families.
We found an attorney who will take this case but we don't have the funds to pay him. Found out money that was collected for the Church to buy some property in 2006 somehow the deed is in the name of the deceased Pastor and the one who is saying he is the new Pastor. May not be the only property like this. Makes a person wonder what else is askew.
I'm afraid you may need to begin to question your deceased beloved pastor. I don't mean to sound disrespectful but you seriously need to consider what was going on here. Unless he had severe dementia and was manipulated maybe he was not all you believed. The fact that while he still had his faculties he did "nothing" to make sure he was able to have a successor put in, makes me think maybe he *did* do what he wanted to put a successor in, all without any church input.........
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 09:11 AM
The fine people that were essentially kicked out of their own church are simply going through the process of shock, anger, then acceptance. They are now angry and need an outlet to vent. Accepting what has happened will be a drawn out process. My prayers are with them as they move on to another chapter of their life.
This is like a divorce. They were jilted and the ex-spouse has taken 100% of the property and assets. A travesty like this takes time to get past.
You are right again, and it will take time. Only some, as they remind me don't have much time. But, at the same time, I'm amazed at how it has made some more determined than ever to just make heaven their home. If the "new church" will just let someone come in and try out for a pastor, I think they could make it. Other wise, it will be lilke other great churches in the area that have folded in the last 60 years, that a lot of great Apostolic people have come out of.
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 09:13 AM
I'm afraid you may need to begin to question your deceased beloved pastor. I don't mean to sound disrespectful but you seriously need to consider what was going on here. Unless he had severe dementia and was manipulated maybe he was not all you believed. The fact that while he still had his faculties he did "nothing" to make sure he was able to have a successor put in, makes me think maybe he *did* do what he wanted to out a successor in, all without any church input.........
To much POWER and CONTROL is not a good thing anywhere!!!
Devils eh? We will let Christ decide who the devils are.
My own personal opinion is:
If I were a member of that church, I'd count my monetary losses and walk away in a heartbeat.
Anybody who has to go to the great lengths to steal from the people like it appears these folks have done deserve an empty building.
Bingo. I still say run to the nearest door. 1 Cor 6:7:
"Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?"
You have been defrauded. But you may defraud yourselves and others much more if you sue.
The fine people that were essentially kicked out of their own church are simply going through the process of shock, anger, then acceptance. They are now angry and need an outlet to vent. Accepting what has happened will be a drawn out process. My prayers are with them as they move on to another chapter of their life.
This is like a divorce. They were jilted and the ex-spouse has taken 100% of the property and assets. A travesty like this takes time to get past.
Yes, absolutely. Nothing good comes from silencing people at this point. People need to talk. Sometimes people don't get all the facts straight but everyone should know and be aware that this is discussion that comes from grief, it is not facts lined up, it is not mediation, it is not both sides telling their story. It is simply an avenue of reflection, to express grief, to get a back rub, to help take a deep breath and move forward.
Too often, people are told to suck it up when they have guts hanging all over the place. It is too soon to suck it up.
To much POWER and CONTROL is not a good thing anywhere!!!
Right.
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 09:56 AM
Yes, absolutely. Nothing good comes from silencing people at this point. People need to talk. Sometimes people don't get all the facts straight but everyone should know and be aware that this is discussion that comes from grief, it is not facts lined up, it is not mediation, it is not both sides telling their story. It is simply an avenue of reflection, to express grief, to get a back rub, to help take a deep breath and move forward.
Too often, people are told to suck it up when they have guts hanging all over the place. It is too soon to suck it up.
You have problably never met anyone like the "daughter". There was a "meeting" to discuss and vote on the boyfriend. It got ugly. When different ones spoke out, the "daughter" and boyfriend got very loud, told them to sit down, asked the ushers to sit them down, said things about people in the congregation ,about their finances, that everyone knew wasn't true. The daughter should not have even discussed a members giving in front of the church. Most of the people just sat there shocked. I would have just left, and said GOODBYE!! They won't get off that easy tho. I'm sure the IRS is looking!
StillStanding
08-08-2012, 11:20 AM
I doubt there was genuine concern at all.
Really? Your discernment is in need of repair!
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 11:39 AM
The church sign in front of "GR" last month, said "Don't judge me because my sins are different than yours". Now, what does that mean?
Not quite sorry your colon's twisted. It is obvious. I know how pentecostals work. Been there. Done that. Bought the t-shirt. Sold it in a yard sale.
Proof? Thread started in Fellowship Hall. There is a Prayer Request section. People are using this thread as an excuse to "trash" people. The IRS has ramped up investigating churches. Let the IRS do the dirty work.
Really? Your discernment is in need of repair!
StillStanding
08-08-2012, 12:27 PM
Not quite sorry your colon's twisted. It is obvious. I know how pentecostals work. Been there. Done that. Bought the t-shirt. Sold it in a yard sale.
Proof? Thread started in Fellowship Hall. There is a Prayer Request section. People are using this thread as an excuse to "trash" people. The IRS has ramped up investigating churches. Let the IRS do the dirty work.
To say that there is no genuine concern is very judgmental and w-a-a-a-a-a-y off base! Work on that discernment thing!
This thread wasn't started as a prayer request, although prayer is welcomed and sought. This thread was started to INFORM those in the Apostolic community that a travesty was taking place at this church, and that innocent saints were being abused! Do people need to know that things like this can happen in some of our churches? YES!!
You are apparently questioning my motives and the motives of others. I can't speak for the others, but you are not even in the same zip code as to what my motives were and are.
Maybe being judgmental is your thing, but at least you could work on being more hearty.
I personally appreciate this thread. I've said some things I've needed to get off my chest for years.....
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 12:51 PM
Not quite sorry your colon's twisted. It is obvious. I know how pentecostals work. Been there. Done that. Bought the t-shirt. Sold it in a yard sale.
Proof? Thread started in Fellowship Hall. There is a Prayer Request section. People are using this thread as an excuse to "trash" people. The IRS has ramped up investigating churches. Let the IRS do the dirty work.
WOW!!! You sound like someone I do my best to stay away from!!!!
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 12:52 PM
I personally appreciate this thread. I've said some things I've needed to get off my chest for years.....
You don't know how much I've enjoyed reading your comments!!
As some one put so eloquently. What good has this thread done? Pursue legal action? The Bible says we shouldn't take things to court. The main focus is lost in this situation. Bothe sides need to figure out what's more important. Winning the lost or getting in a peeing contest over power and property.
Lost souls are the real losers in this war.
To say that there is no genuine concern is very judgmental and w-a-a-a-a-a-y off base! Work on that discernment thing!
This thread wasn't started as a prayer request, although prayer is welcomed and sought. This thread was started to INFORM those in the Apostolic community that a travesty was taking place at this church, and that innocent saints were being abused! Do people need to know that things like this can happen in some of our churches? YES!!
You are apparently questioning my motives and the motives of others. I can't speak for the others, but you are not even in the same zip code as to what my motives were and are.
Maybe being judgmental is your thing, but at least you could work on being more hearty.
As some one put so eloquently. What good has this thread done? Pursue legal action? The Bible says we shouldn't take things to court. The main focus is lost in this situation. Bothe sides need to figure out what's more important. Winning the lost or getting in a peeing contest over power and property.
Lost souls are the real losers in this war.
To say that there is no genuine concern is very judgmental and w-a-a-a-a-a-y off base! Work on that discernment thing!
This thread wasn't started as a prayer request, although prayer is welcomed and sought. This thread was started to INFORM those in the Apostolic community that a travesty was taking place at this church, and that innocent saints were being abused! Do people need to know that things like this can happen in some of our churches? YES!!
You are apparently questioning my motives and the motives of others. I can't speak for the others, but you are not even in the same zip code as to what my motives were and are.
Maybe being judgmental is your thing, but at least you could work on being more hearty.
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 01:20 PM
As some one put so eloquently. What good has this thread done? Pursue legal action? The Bible says we shouldn't take things to court. The main focus is lost in this situation. Bothe sides need to figure out what's more important. Winning the lost or getting in a peeing contest over power and property.
Lost souls are the real losers in this war.
Your comments are not worth reading or answering. Grow up!!!!
As some one put so eloquently. What good has this thread done? Pursue legal action? The Bible says we shouldn't take things to court. The main focus is lost in this situation. Bothe sides need to figure out what's more important. Winning the lost or getting in a peeing contest over power and property.
Lost souls are the real losers in this war.
Why are you so flippant and uncaring about this situation? There are people who have been truly hurt here. This is not about having, as you put it, a "peeing" contest.
StillStanding
08-08-2012, 03:13 PM
Why are you so flippant and uncaring about this situation? There are people who have been truly hurt here. This is not about having, as you put it, a "peeing" contest.
Maybe it takes someone who has gone through this type of thing before to understand the hurt that the saints of this church are feeling.
I do know this: What the devil meant to harm and destroy this church, God can use for his glory! Who knows? Maybe a seed is being sown for the greatest revival and church this city has ever known!
Got to look at the bigger picture. From what I read there huge Biblical infractions from both sides. Armchair commentators haven't offered sound biblical advise. My opinion is based on observation. If you aren't offering solutions, you're part of the problem. That's why I mention let the IRS handle the situation. Looks like both sides are intent winning thr battle but losing the war.
Sorry you feel intimidated by not conversing with me in the future. Drama quenns/kings and I don't converse well.
What's your problem?? Why are you even on here? You sound like a very bitter person. Definitely not someone I will waste my time talking with again!!
Maybe it takes someone who has gone through this type of thing before to understand the hurt that the saints of this church are feeling.
I do know this: What the devil meant to harm and destroy this church, God can use for his glory! Who knows? Maybe a seed is being sown for the greatest revival and church this city has ever known!
Very often, they will claim they too have been "hurt" and have simply risen above it, unlike pitiful little you. ;)
They are fighting over buildings, money and power. Oh my.
It's all going to burn anyway. People are hurt. The best thing you can do to help healing is the right thing. That way when time passes, you won't have regrets. I care more about the lost than I do about a group of people fighting over trivial things. The leadership didn't have the foresight to establish a succession plan. Every good business has a plan in place in case of leadership change. This is the Father's business. His business is kingdom building. Yeah I'm flippant at grown babies fighting over things the world fights over.
Why are you so flippant and uncaring about this situation? There are people who have been truly hurt here. This is not about having, as you put it, a "peeing" contest.
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 03:49 PM
They are fighting over buildings, money and power. Oh my.
It's all going to burn anyway. People are hurt. The best thing you can do to help healing is the right thing. That way when time passes, you won't have regrets. I care more about the lost than I do about a group of people fighting over trivial things. The leadership didn't have the foresight to establish a succession plan. Every good business has a plan in place in case of leadership change. This is the Father's business. His business is kingdom building. Yeah I'm flippant at grown babies fighting over things the world fights over.
You don't care about the lost!! Give me a break. Do you honestly think we haven't run across your kind millions of time? And we sure don't feel intimidated by people like you. You arn't worth wasting time talking to!!:happydance:happydance
They are fighting over buildings, money and power. Oh my.
It's all going to burn anyway. People are hurt. The best thing you can do to help healing is the right thing. That way when time passes, you won't have regrets. I care more about the lost than I do about a group of people fighting over trivial things. The leadership didn't have the foresight to establish a succession plan. Every good business has a plan in place in case of leadership change. This is the Father's business. His business is kingdom building. Yeah I'm flippant at grown babies fighting over things the world fights over.
Then why are you wasting your time on this thread? Maybe you should be out "winning the lost".
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 03:59 PM
Got to look at the bigger picture. From what I read there huge Biblical infractions from both sides. Armchair commentators haven't offered sound biblical advise. My opinion is based on observation. If you aren't offering solutions, you're part of the problem. That's why I mention let the IRS handle the situation. Looks like both sides are intent winning thr battle but losing the war.
Sorry you feel intimidated by not conversing with me in the future. Drama quenns/kings and I don't converse well.
I've heard several solutions!!!
StillStanding
08-08-2012, 04:02 PM
The fine folks who stayed at this church, even when the elderly pastor was incapacitated, were TOO loyal in my opinion! I personally would have moved on when the pastor, because of age, could no longer physically function adequately, especially when dementia set in. I'm surprised that the members didn't request a new pastor! All I know is that they had the highest respect for him through the years, and didn't want to force him into retirement if he didn't want to.
That's why I say that these saints are the best of the best when it comes to loyalty!
StillStanding
08-08-2012, 04:06 PM
You don't care about the lost!! Give me a break. Do you honestly think we haven't run across your kind millions of time? And we sure don't feel intimidated by people like you. You arn't worth wasting time talking to!!:happydance:happydance
Don't feed the troll! :nah
Several non biblical solutions. I've heard several solutions!!!
Don't flatter yourself You haven't come across anyone close to me. The Bible says tale bearers will not make it to heaven. 1 Corinthians 6:7 says it's better to be defrauded than to embarass Christ in a public setting. Call me naïve, but I tend to believe the Bible means what it says.
Kudos to the congregation for sticking with the pastor.
Why do you feel intimidated? I'm not worth talking to? Do you feel more comfrtable with gossipers, trouble makers and tale bearers? If so you're wasting your time with me. You can't clean a pig who wants to wallow around in misery.
You don't care about the lost!! Give me a break. Do you honestly think we haven't run across your kind millions of time? And we sure don't feel intimidated by people like you. You arn't worth wasting time talking to!!:happydance:happydance
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 05:26 PM
Don't flatter yourself You haven't come across anyone close to me. The Bible says tale bearers will not make it to heaven. 1 Corinthians 6:7 says it's better to be defrauded than to embarass Christ in a public setting. Call me naïve, but I tend to believe the Bible means what it says.
Kudos to the congregation for sticking with the pastor.
Why do you feel intimidated? I'm not worth talking to? Do you feel more comfrtable with gossipers, trouble makers and tale bearers? If so you're wasting your time with me. You can't clean a pig who wants to wallow around in misery.
:blah
Don't flatter yourself You haven't come across anyone close to me. The Bible says tale bearers will not make it to heaven. 1 Corinthians 6:7 says it's better to be defrauded than to embarass Christ in a public setting. Call me naïve, but I tend to believe the Bible means what it says.
Kudos to the congregation for sticking with the pastor.
Why do you feel intimidated? I'm not worth talking to? Do you feel more comfrtable with gossipers, trouble makers and tale bearers? If so you're wasting your time with me. You can't clean a pig who wants to wallow around in misery.
Why kudos for sticking with the pastor? Do you know the situation well?
There's something to be said for a congregation that doesn't kick its pastor to the curb. You can tell the pastor was loved by the congregation. With that said something should have been done to ensure a smooth transition. It didn't happen. Mistakes were made and this is the result.
Why kudos for sticking with the pastor? Do you know the situation well?
You need to sue the doctor for malpractice for messing up your lobotomy.
:blah
It is rare church splits do NOT happen when leadership changes. Some splits are more severe than others. Larger churches can absorb the loss. But splits devestates the local congregation. I think it is okay if people leave without causing a fuss if they don't like the direction the leadership is going. I think God will honor your decision if you leave early with the right attitude. The last church I left was the church I grew up in 20 years ago. I got married and started attending the church my wife went. I left without any regrets.
Rapture 1
08-08-2012, 07:53 PM
You need to sue the doctor for malpractice for messing up your lobotomy.
I will give you CREDIT today. You have made me laugh. I don't think you are as bad as you come across!!!!:thumbsup
I remember way back in Bible College in the late 70's I was in a class where they talked about the importance of a pastor knowing when to retire. The sad truth at that time and even much later is that many Pentecostal churches were not funding any kind of retirement for their pastor and many pastors opted out of paying into Social Security because they could.
This meant for many pastors either no income or a significant drop in income if they retired. Sometimes churches who had not funded any kind of retirement for their pastor would find arrangements negotiated between his successor and him to give a portion of the tithes to the retired pastor for some period of time. Of course many smaller churches could not bear this burden as they could hardly pay the current pastor.
Pentecost has really changed as it has grown through the years. From preachers barely getting by to ones who now make triple digit incomes and use it to invest in real estate, income properties, etc.
Probably the strangest investment I heard about was when about 20 years ago a UPC pastor friend of mine told me of a conversation he had with a neighboring pastor who was so conservative he didn't even wear a watch. That pastor was sharing his investment portfolio with my pastor friend and mentioned that he had just invested in a movie video rental vending machine at a local factory! Of course none of his church members knew about it.
RandyWayne
08-08-2012, 11:46 PM
I remember way back in Bible College in the late 70's I was in a class where they talked about the importance of a pastor knowing when to retire. The sad truth at that time and even much later is that many Pentecostal churches were not funding any kind of retirement for their pastor and many pastors opted out of paying into Social Security because they could.
This meant for many pastors either no income or a significant drop in income if they retired. Sometimes churches who had not funded any kind of retirement for their pastor would find arrangements negotiated between his successor and him to give a portion of the tithes to the retired pastor for some period of time. Of course many smaller churches could not bear this burden as they could hardly pay the current pastor.
Pentecost has really changed as it has grown through the years. From preachers barely getting by to ones who now make triple digit incomes and use it to invest in real estate, income properties, etc.
Probably the strangest investment I heard about was when about 20 years ago a UPC pastor friend of mine told me of a conversation he had with a neighboring pastor who was so conservative he didn't even wear a watch. That pastor was sharing his investment portfolio with my pastor friend and mentioned that he had just invested in a movie video rental vending machine at a local factory! Of course none of his church members knew about it.
I am not sure when you define it changing but being in the UPC from the early 80's to about 90 I remember ALL pastors (who had churches of over 100) driving Lincolns. It is what Pentecostal Pastors Drove! Now at the same time, those who pastored smaller churches lived like paupers. They weren't part of the official royalty and you could even tell how uncomfortable they were when asked to sit behind the pulpit area when visiting the larger churches.
The Lemon
08-09-2012, 07:07 AM
I do believe as Christians we should be liberal in our giving - be that to each other, the Pastor, various charities etc., etc.
Having said that, I can certainly see how a full time Pastor for many years who has opted out of Social Security, as well as having any kind of investment portfolio for retirement, would be in a very serious financial condition should they officially "retire".
At the same time, this scenario just causes me to be that more insistant upon really planning for retirement - and to take it a step further, I am a huge advocate of working a secular job in addition to pastoring or evangelizing etc.
I know there are sooooo many opinions on the above statement concerning secular work, but to me, Paul showed us the value of such in his own ministry. I had the privilege of serving uder a Pastor who also owned his own plumbing business and his business did NOT hinder his ability to be an effective leader and Pastor...not one bit. Now, he did not Pastor a HUGE congregation, but nevertheless, he was effective, personable, and most of all..annointed.
The bigger the church, and the more it is ran like a business, the more "business" responsibilities come with it.....I heard it said by a Pastor once..."big church, equals big problems". What makes this discussion even more sad to me is the lack of personal fiscal responsibility of ministers who in some cases totally neglect their own responsiblity to save and supply for their own. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail...
StillStanding
08-09-2012, 07:49 AM
I do believe as Christians we should be liberal in our giving - be that to each other, the Pastor, various charities etc., etc.
Having said that, I can certainly see how a full time Pastor for many years who has opted out of Social Security, as well as having any kind of investment portfolio for retirement, would be in a very serious financial condition should they officially "retire".
At the same time, this scenario just causes me to be that more insistant upon really planning for retirement - and to take it a step further, I am a huge advocate of working a secular job in addition to pastoring or evangelizing etc.
I know there are sooooo many opinions on the above statement concerning secular work, but to me, Paul showed us the value of such in his own ministry. I had the privilege of serving uder a Pastor who also owned his own plumbing business and his business did NOT hinder his ability to be an effective leader and Pastor...not one bit. Now, he did not Pastor a HUGE congregation, but nevertheless, he was effective, personable, and most of all..annointed.
The bigger the church, and the more it is ran like a business, the more "business" responsibilities come with it.....I heard it said by a Pastor once..."big church, equals big problems". What makes this discussion even more sad to me is the lack of personal fiscal responsibility of ministers who in some cases totally neglect their own responsiblity to save and supply for their own. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail...
It is my understanding that a wealthy member of this church offered to pay the former pastor a salary if he would retire, but the pastor refused. Maybe someone can confirm or deny.
I do believe as Christians we should be liberal in our giving - be that to each other, the Pastor, various charities etc., etc.
Having said that, I can certainly see how a full time Pastor for many years who has opted out of Social Security, as well as having any kind of investment portfolio for retirement, would be in a very serious financial condition should they officially "retire".
At the same time, this scenario just causes me to be that more insistant upon really planning for retirement - and to take it a step further, I am a huge advocate of working a secular job in addition to pastoring or evangelizing etc.
I know there are sooooo many opinions on the above statement concerning secular work, but to me, Paul showed us the value of such in his own ministry. I had the privilege of serving uder a Pastor who also owned his own plumbing business and his business did NOT hinder his ability to be an effective leader and Pastor...not one bit. Now, he did not Pastor a HUGE congregation, but nevertheless, he was effective, personable, and most of all..annointed.
The bigger the church, and the more it is ran like a business, the more "business" responsibilities come with it.....I heard it said by a Pastor once..."big church, equals big problems". What makes this discussion even more sad to me is the lack of personal fiscal responsibility of ministers who in some cases totally neglect their own responsiblity to save and supply for their own. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail...
Yes, and what happens to his wife should he die? Does he just believe "God will provide?"
The Lemon
08-09-2012, 09:45 AM
ILG,
I agree...sometimes we all can be a little "super spiritual", and sacrifice common sense. There is room in the body for diversity and application in the call, if someone feels to go in a direction and a huge building with a large congreation is the eventual result..so be it - as long as people are saved and growing in Christ...wonderful!
I do think also, that there is still merit in a smaller assembly. I also realize that different people have different capacity levels within their respective ministries. In all that, there still is a very real and very fine line between being a spiritual house and being profit center. If the focus is not on Jesus, it can easily turn to the pastor and or leadership, and then in my opinion it eventually cascades down.
As I have said before, I am not bashing the traditional church structure of bulidings etc., but at the same time I will argue the absolute necessity of such. If ministry is a blessing, then all of the five fold ministry should eat at the same alter, not just the pastor. Sometimes we fuel our own fire by design, and wonder why so many preachers seek so earnestly for a pastorate, called or not.
I remember awhile back in my old assembly, when the pastor resigned, I and another minister sat down with the board of directors and the comment was made to the effect that with a church of this size and income, if they broadcasted a need for a pastor, they would easily have canidates lined up for a mile. The point I got was that the income potential would be the main draw, and secondly the size or the power/ control would be another factor.
What was not said in that conversation was a person actually "called" by God to lead that flock. That was the beginning of my eyes being opened to the very real political side of ministry...
What was not said in that conversation was a person actually "called" by God to lead that flock. That was the beginning of my eyes being opened to the very real political side of ministry...
Yes, I once had a very pristine view of ministry and the political side came as a shocker. But it is certainly there.
Not the first time I used that line. Used that line on Charles Couch. A so-called faith healer who came to the conclusion I was gay after looking at my Facebook photos. He said God was homophobic. I mentioned God saves gay people. I told him Paul had a church with former gays. Still didn't deter his opinio that gay people can't be converted.
I will give you CREDIT today. You have made me laugh. I don't think you are as bad as you come across!!!!:thumbsup
Politics was evident in the First Century Church. Started off with a business meeting to replace Judas. Paul constantly struggled with church politics in Corinth and Galatia. It is the nature of the beast.
AreYouReady?
08-09-2012, 03:01 PM
Not the first time I used that line. Used that line on Charles Couch. A so-called faith healer who came to the conclusion I was gay after looking at my Facebook photos.
Did he explain how he can tell just by looking at pictures?
He said God was homophobic. I mentioned God saves gay people. I told him Paul had a church with former gays. Still didn't deter his opinio that gay people can't be converted.
This is in line with your signature lines.
I am not sure when you define it changing but being in the UPC from the early 80's to about 90 I remember ALL pastors (who had churches of over 100) driving Lincolns. It is what Pentecostal Pastors Drove! Now at the same time, those who pastored smaller churches lived like paupers. They weren't part of the official royalty and you could even tell how uncomfortable they were when asked to sit behind the pulpit area when visiting the larger churches.
RandyWayne / BillyBob,
I do think the late 70's and then the 80's is when it started changing. OP churches were just then starting to grow to the point they were no longer in survival mode. Where once a pastor receiving 100% of the tithe was really not enough to take care of him, his family and the church plant now churches were growing to be in the hundreds and some in the thousands of members with many pastors still receiving 100% of the tithe to parcel out between their personal income and what was spent on the church as they desired.
Of course a lot of ethical preachers moved to salaries or a percentage of the tithes as churches grew. I don't begrudge a pastor having an income enough to support a family. I also think it is every churches responsibility to have a retirement program in place for a pastor. A formal one that he could take with him if he ever leaves to minister elsewhere. Many of the problems in Pentecost have been because pastors pastor too long or insist on handing down a church to a family member both out of pride and financial consideration.
...Many of the problems in Pentecost have been because pastors pastor too long or insist on handing down a church to a family member both out of pride and financial consideration.
Some times the church is considered a "family business" and is handed down from father to son (or son-in-law) to keep it in the family. Some times those sons or sons-in-law do not have the vision, qualifications, burden etc of the father and things just go downhill.
More importantly it lines up with the Bible.
Did he explain how he can tell just by looking at pictures?
This is in line with your signature lines.
Sister Alvear
08-10-2012, 10:28 AM
Back to the original subject. I would like to say I have known the ** family all my life. Brother ** preached my graduation service, visited Brazil, supported us for many years. I am very sad good people are going through this problem but I can assure you that neither Brother ** or Brother ** can do anything other than what we can do...pray...and that is the most important thing at this point. I hate things like this are discussed on the web for the guilty have their minds made up and the innocent suffer...Bishop was a good man I know he may have failed in getting someone before he passed however he is not alive to defend himself...
AreYouReady?
08-10-2012, 10:53 AM
I know he was a good man...but he did know at some point during his elderly years that he would not live forever.
Sister Alvear
08-10-2012, 10:59 AM
Sometimes it is hard to let go...and that must have been his problem...We are in the process of letting go in Brazil...let me tell you first hand it is VERY hard...but yes, it is the thing to do...we are not here forever....
Steve Epley
08-11-2012, 12:11 AM
Back to the original subject. I would like to say I have known the ** family all my life. Brother ** preached my graduation service, visited Brazil, supported us for many years. I am very sad good people are going through this problem but I can assure you that neither Brother ** or Brother ** can do anything other than what we can do...pray...and that is the most important thing at this point. I hate things like this are discussed on the web for the guilty have their minds made up and the innocent suffer...Bishop was a good man I know he may have failed in getting someone before he passed however he is not alive to defend himself...
Amen. Preachers are human not divine so we fail and age will affect us all.
AreYouReady?
08-11-2012, 12:32 AM
Sometimes it is hard to let go...and that must have been his problem...We are in the process of letting go in Brazil...let me tell you first hand it is VERY hard...but yes, it is the thing to do...we are not here forever....
Amen. Preachers are human not divine so we fail and age will affect us all.
I agree. We are all human and it is hard to let go.
I look in the Obituaries and see people my age and younger dying everyday. It has prompted my husband and I to seriously talk with our children about what they specifically want in regards to our possessions after our death. We are going to do this so that they can be specific and that the "Will" will be ironclad and hopefully they will not have any 'surprises' to fight over material possessions. They will know beforehand exactly how the estate will be divided out equally and fairly.
This is why I am having a hard time wondering why this situation happened to all these people. Christ built the church through the labor and the generosity of the people. It just does not seem right that one or two people call the shots on property, has property in individual names because the property should belong to the people of the church.
If nothing else comes from this...it will be a lesson for all people, not just independent churches to get their house in order before they pass away. That is a biblical principle to do such things while we have sound mind.
Sis Alvear, it IS hard to let go of people and places we love. I can only imagine that the missions your husband and you worked so hard building would be as hard to let go as when your children grew up and left home.
Why is it that "women with bobbed hair are going to hell" but preachers who put their congregations through all kinds of horrors because they don't do things right are simply human?
Why is it that "women with bobbed hair are going to hell" but preachers who put their congregations through all kinds of horrors because they don't do things right are simply human?
we have to justify the "good ole boys club"
AreYouReady?
08-11-2012, 10:26 AM
we have to justify the "good ole boys club"
:spit
we have to justify the "good ole boys club"
I already knew that but I had to say something. ;)
Steve Epley
08-11-2012, 02:06 PM
Why is it that "women with bobbed hair are going to hell" but preachers who put their congregations through all kinds of horrors because they don't do things right are simply human?
It is simple we have clear instructions about women's hair we do not have clear instructions on a procedure of pastoral transitions.
Praxeas
08-11-2012, 02:21 PM
It is simple we have clear instructions about women's hair we do not have clear instructions on a procedure of pastoral transitions.
The hair deal is not that "clear". There are a lot of clear teachings in the bible but what Paul said is not one of them
It is simple we have clear instructions about women's hair we do not have clear instructions on a procedure of pastoral transitions.
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;Romans 12:11
That sounds pretty clear to me. Also, the bible says long not uncut. I think you just want to think that one is clear and the other is not because it's more convenient for you.
Steve Epley
08-11-2012, 02:52 PM
The hair deal is not that "clear". There are a lot of clear teachings in the bible but what Paul said is not one of them
Clear to me. Would you like a cd of my teaching on the subject?:heeheehee
Rapture 1
08-11-2012, 02:57 PM
It is simple we have clear instructions about women's hair we do not have clear instructions on a procedure of pastoral transitions.
What is a procedure of pastoral transitions?
1 Thessalonians 4:6
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
Romans 12:11
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
John 2:16 To those who sold the doves, he said, "Take these things out of here! Don't make my Father's house a marketplace!"
Acts 6:3 Therefore select from among you, brothers, seven men of good report, full of the Holy Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Romans 12:17 Do not give evil for evil to any man. Let all your business be well ordered in the eyes of all men.
2 Peter 2:3 And in their desire for profit they will come to you with words of deceit, like traders doing business in souls: whose punishment has been ready for a long time and their destruction is watching for them.
Proverbs 22:29 Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; he shall not stand before mean men.
Ecclesiastes 3:1 For everything there is a fixed time, and a time for every business under the sun.
I am sure MUCH MUCH more could be put together concerning the rightful running of business than a sketchy little verse about long (not uncut) hair that there is NO "in the mouths of two or three witnesses" whatsoever.
bbyrd009
08-11-2012, 03:15 PM
The hair deal is not that "clear". There are a lot of clear teachings in the bible but what Paul said is not one of themHmm; seems manifestly clear to this guy. "...because of the angels," explained?
http://www.biblenews1.com/marriage/marriagg.htm
way better than any explanation I've heard so far...
last page, I think.
Rapture 1
08-11-2012, 03:50 PM
Hmm; seems manifestly clear to this guy. "...because of the angels," explained?
http://www.biblenews1.com/marriage/marriagg.htm
way better than any explanation I've heard so far...
last page, I think.
Nothing seems CLEAR today!!!:foottap
Steve Epley
08-11-2012, 05:39 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:6
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
Romans 12:11
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
John 2:16 To those who sold the doves, he said, "Take these things out of here! Don't make my Father's house a marketplace!"
Acts 6:3 Therefore select from among you, brothers, seven men of good report, full of the Holy Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Romans 12:17 Do not give evil for evil to any man. Let all your business be well ordered in the eyes of all men.
2 Peter 2:3 And in their desire for profit they will come to you with words of deceit, like traders doing business in souls: whose punishment has been ready for a long time and their destruction is watching for them.
Proverbs 22:29 Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; he shall not stand before mean men.
Ecclesiastes 3:1 For everything there is a fixed time, and a time for every business under the sun.
I am sure MUCH MUCH more could be put together concerning the rightful running of business than a sketchy little verse about long (not uncut) hair that there is NO "in the mouths of two or three witnesses" whatsoever.
And these verses apply to pastoral transitions?
AreYouReady?
08-11-2012, 05:43 PM
Brother Epley, just what are the Biblical duties of a pastor?
And these verses apply to pastoral transitions?
SE,
Obviously, they apply to a wide variety of business, including church business. If a man is slothful in business, including a pastor, he is disobedient. And in my opinion much more disobedient than a woman who cuts her hair since there is much more admonition concerning business than hair. The Bible says that in the mouths of two or three witnesses let every word be established. You only have one witness for long hair and then it doesn't even say uncut but many, many admonitions concerning business and the taking care of finances and not worshipping mammon and also being good stewards.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
Jason B
08-11-2012, 10:54 PM
Neither Steve Epley nor any of his posse have any solid Bible for their view on hair, but with typical Biblical inconsistency gross violations and contradictions are swept under the rug, while all of the gnats are strained out.
Sister Alvear
08-11-2012, 11:22 PM
What does Brother Epley's view on hair have anything to do with what is going on at **? Brother ** believed the same about hair.
AreYouReady?
08-11-2012, 11:45 PM
Sis Alvear, I respect you a lot so I want to to say this as nice as I can.
I think the point is that some people get by with doing things far worse than a woman cutting her hair. Some people hurt others terribly...the effect of those actions ripple around the church and sometimes outside the perimeters of the church and into the community. The consequences of those deeds are low-to-none by some church leaders is the let's forgive and forget attitude...everybody makes mistakes. Yet, in some churches when a woman cuts her hair, she is sat down, ignored, shunned, talked to in a condescending way and lectured about the path to hell. Even if this were true, it does not affect other people...she just hurts herself.
I've seen it happen...but when the pastor's daughter cut her hair and started wearing makeup...the rules changed...now it is ok for the women to cut their hair, when before it was not. When the pastor's daughter ran away to another state because the marriage age was under 18 at that time, the answer to the people was....let's forgive and forget. There were public consequences to the woman who cut her hair before the pastor's daughter cut hers. Little public consequences came to the daughter except perhaps privately.
So...it just seems nutz that some things like emotional brutality, theft of the people's church building and funds, being kicked out of your church that you spent a lifetime in just because you did not vote "the right vote" etc are more easily dismissed while the fiery flames of hell is licking at the neck of the lady who cut and styled her hair.
Praxeas
08-12-2012, 01:05 AM
Clear to me. Would you like a cd of my teaching on the subject?:heeheehee
You do CDs? I was sure you were still using cassette tapes :yourock
Love you Bro
Rapture 1
08-12-2012, 06:36 AM
What does Brother Epley's view on hair have anything to do with what is going on at **? Brother ** believed the same about hair.
Bro ** did preach against cutting hair, and if most women or young girls did, he would let them know and they couldn't sing in the choir or any other position. But, there were a "few" that was an exception. And everyone always knew "they" kept it cut to their shoulders. They wouldn't hide the fact, except to him. Years ago, the "daughter", who always wore her hair long and straight, cut it straight across. It was very obvious. A lady in the church (whose in-laws have a strong heritage in another apostolic church), confronted the pastor about it. It was at a dinner in the back. The pastor was sitting at the end of the table. He denied she had cut her hair. He said, "she said she didn't". There were some words. The lady and her family left. She has never gone back to a oneness church again, and thats been about 35 yrs ago. Also, I have found that the" daughter" will not listen to any of her brothers or family. Thats why they couldn't help out at GR. She won't let them.
Sis Alvear, I respect you a lot so I want to to say this as nice as I can.
I think the point is that some people get by with doing things far worse than a woman cutting her hair. Some people hurt others terribly...the effect of those actions ripple around the church and sometimes outside the perimeters of the church and into the community. The consequences of those deeds are low-to-none by some church leaders is the let's forgive and forget attitude...everybody makes mistakes. Yet, in some churches when a woman cuts her hair, she is sat down, ignored, shunned, talked to in a condescending way and lectured about the path to hell. Even if this were true, it does not affect other people...she just hurts herself.
I've seen it happen...but when the pastor's daughter cut her hair and started wearing makeup...the rules changed...now it is ok for the women to cut their hair, when before it was not. When the pastor's daughter ran away to another state because the marriage age was under 18 at that time, the answer to the people was....let's forgive and forget. There were public consequences to the woman who cut her hair before the pastor's daughter cut hers. Little public consequences came to the daughter except perhaps privately.
So...it just seems nutz that some things like emotional brutality, theft of the people's church building and funds, being kicked out of your church that you spent a lifetime in just because you did not vote "the right vote" etc are more easily dismissed while the fiery flames of hell is licking at the neck of the lady who cut and styled her hair.
Some of that stuff falls under the "strain out a gnat but swallow a camel" view of holiness where we have our own set of mortal and venial sins. Some falls under "the grandfather clause" i.e. it's a sin when anyone else does it, but it's OK when someone from the pastor's family (or inner circle clique) do it.
You do CDs? I was sure you were still using cassette tapes :yourock
Love you Bro
or maybe 8 tracks or victrola cylinders.
Sister Alvear
08-12-2012, 07:05 AM
Oh ok...I couldn't see how cutting hair got into this subject...Sometimes I don't catch on...sorry...
Walks_in_islam
08-12-2012, 07:19 AM
Yes you do have them. Your clear instructions are to cover it. Do you follow them?
I see that you have wandered into written specifics again. Bad move Epley.
It was advised awhile back that maybe you should stick to shirt sleeves, hemlines, sideburn, and the specific length of hair relative to the collar rather than what is specifically written.
A thought for you to consider: What might be a cool thing to do is to teach against and condemn others for television while keeping an open path for yourself to the internet where all that is on television and more is within easy reach and accessible with a click of a mouse.
Now you can think up something smart, witty, and insulting to say and I declare it fairly earned.
wii
It is simple we have clear instructions about women's hair we do not have clear instructions on a procedure of pastoral transitions.
So...it just seems nutz that some things like emotional brutality, theft of the people's church building and funds, being kicked out of your church that you spent a lifetime in just because you did not vote "the right vote" etc are more easily dismissed while the fiery flames of hell is licking at the neck of the lady who cut and styled her hair.
Exactly, and, although it may seem to some that the subjects are not interconnected, they very much are because often, the ministry will have this "let's forgive and forget" attitude about the emotional brutality, theft and these things that ministers and pastors do and can't for the life of them figure out why church people can't just let it go. They can't figure it out to the extent that they call the hurt people bitter and unforgiving adding to the emotional brutality that they have already experienced rather than lightening the load. What they forget is that they are using an unjust balance which, according to the Bible, is an abomination unto God.
"A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, But a just weight is His delight." Proverbs 11:1
It is time for many preachers and pastors to use a just balance rather than being disobedient and using a false weight which is an abomination to the Lord, according to the Bible.
This subject is very much tied into the discussion of this topic for the simple reason that many in leadership make the fault and blame lie solely with the people when, in fact, the fault lies firstly with the leadership who wants to use one measurement of forgiveness and being human with the leadership themselves and another with the people underneath them.
Oh ok...I couldn't see how cutting hair got into this subject...Sometimes I don't catch on...sorry...
You are a sweetie, Sis. A. ;)
Rapture 1
08-12-2012, 10:11 AM
Exactly, and, although it may seem to some that the subjects are not interconnected, they very much are because often, the ministry will have this "let's forgive and forget" attitude about the emotional brutality, theft and these things that ministers and pastors do and can't for the life of them figure out why church people can't just let it go. They can't figure it out to the extent that they call the hurt people bitter and unforgiving adding to the emotional brutality that they have already experienced rather than lightening the load. What they forget is that they are using an unjust balance which, according to the Bible, is an abomination unto God.
"A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, But a just weight is His delight." Proverbs 11:1
It is time for many preachers and pastors to use a just balance rather than being disobedient and using a false weight which is an abomination to the Lord, according to the Bible.
This subject is very much tied into the discussion of this topic for the simple reason that many in leadership make the fault and blame lie solely with the people when, in fact, the fault lies firstly with the leadership who wants to use one measurement of forgiveness and being human with the leadership themselves and another with the people underneath them.
Well said!!
AreYouReady?
08-12-2012, 10:29 AM
Some of that stuff falls under the "strain out a gnat but swallow a camel" view of holiness where we have our own set of mortal and venial sins. Some falls under "the grandfather clause" i.e. it's a sin when anyone else does it, but it's OK when someone from the pastor's family (or inner circle clique) do it.
Yep.
AreYouReady?
08-12-2012, 11:05 AM
Oh ok...I couldn't see how cutting hair got into this subject...Sometimes I don't catch on...sorry...
Sister, you have a pure heart. I appreciate you immensely!
Always wished I could do missionary work.
LOVE JESUS
08-12-2012, 11:20 AM
Sister, you have a pure heart. I appreciate you immensely!
Always wished I could do missionary work.
She does have a genuine heart - PURE LOVE flows from her and I don't even know her except I see her work on here.
Same goes for SAM too.
The first Thomas Edison recording was an Epley sermon about hair.
or maybe 8 tracks or victrola cylinders.
bbyrd009
08-12-2012, 12:13 PM
:lol
But seriously. Sad to watch the church
one grew up in implode.
Steve Epley
08-12-2012, 02:44 PM
SE,
Obviously, they apply to a wide variety of business, including church business. If a man is slothful in business, including a pastor, he is disobedient. And in my opinion much more disobedient than a woman who cuts her hair since there is much more admonition concerning business than hair. The Bible says that in the mouths of two or three witnesses let every word be established. You only have one witness for long hair and then it doesn't even say uncut but many, many admonitions concerning business and the taking care of finances and not worshipping mammon and also being good stewards.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
Evidently I agree with all those passages that pertain to business and it a general principle they could apply I was only saying there is no specific order given for a pastoral transition out side of ordaining elders in every city(which was original instead of transition) and the qualifications for bishops are given.
AreYouReady?
08-12-2012, 03:28 PM
Bro. Epley, what are the scriptural duties of a pastor?
Evidently I agree with all those passages that pertain to business and it a general principle they could apply I was only saying there is no specific order given for a pastoral transition out side of ordaining elders in every city(which was original instead of transition) and the qualifications for bishops are given.
Okay, well it sounds like we agree in principle in part. I assume that you do not condone a pastor being slothful in business. Where you and I disagree, I think, is that I believe it is wrong to not take care of a church that is relying on you (you and I agree on this) but you believe that this falls under the "simply human" and "forgivable" and "let by-gone's be bygone's" category whereas you define a woman cutting her hair as hell-fire territory. I, on the other hand, find not taking care of a church that has been entrusted to you as much more serious and much more anti-biblical than a woman trimming her hair (which I admittedly find cutting of a woman's hair to be fine).
Where I find fault in your assessment (and in the assessment of what seems to be many pastors in ultra con thought processes) is the horrible off-balance of a woman cutting her hair to be hell-fire anathema and a pastor hurting scores of people by not taking care of business to be something easily forgiven.
It seems to me that if you do believe that a woman cutting her hair to be hell-fire fodder (and I know you do) then you should also believe that your brethren who are slothful in business to be at the least worthy of the same if not worse especially since there are scores of scriptures about doing right in business and one scant scripture about long hair on women.
kingsmen
08-13-2012, 01:27 PM
I see there is some talk about a "mole" or two. The two people that are considered "moles", both of them had their own agendas. The first 'mole', the one that spent time in federal prison, he seems to be a "true mole" in that he was relaying information back and forth. You will note that he has not even left the church nor was he given a certified letter to leave the church. You must ask yourself a question...how could a person be so close to the people that have left yet he chose to stay when they chose to leave? And the "daughter" did not force him to leave??
As for the second "mole", he has been in this for himself the whole time. He does not work for the daughter and does not work for the people or their best interest. He has had his own personal motivation the whole time. For example, after the election where the "boyfriend" was voted down, he (the mole) was supposed to call for a vote against the "daughter" immediately but he chose not to do this because if he did and she were voted out the "bishop from Michigan" would have immediately come in and taken control. He did not want the bishop to come in because he wanted to be the pastor of the people. Next example, when the people wanted to retain an attorney he rose up against that, again because he has his own motivations. This mole knew if they got an attorney and won he might not remain in power. He wants to pastor badly, at any cost. Mark my word, it won't be two long before he has his brother in there prophesying over people. (Side note: his brother has been divorced and has never been faithful to any church, he is a prolific church-hopper. He is not qualified to prophesy over anybody. No respectable church would have him in their pulpit.)
If the "people that left the church" knew the real circumstances and were aware of these examples, they would not follow this man.
BeenThinkin
08-13-2012, 02:35 PM
I see there is some talk about a "mole" or two. The two people that are considered "moles", both of them had their own agendas. The first 'mole', the one that spent time in federal prison, he seems to be a "true mole" in that he was relaying information back and forth. You will note that he has not even left the church nor was he given a certified letter to leave the church. You must ask yourself a question...how could a person be so close to the people that have left yet he chose to stay when they chose to leave? And the "daughter" did not force him to leave??
As for the second "mole", he has been in this for himself the whole time. He does not work for the daughter and does not work for the people or their best interest. He has had his own personal motivation the whole time. For example, after the election where the "boyfriend" was voted down, he (the mole) was supposed to call for a vote against the "daughter" immediately but he chose not to do this because if he did and she were voted out the "bishop from Michigan" would have immediately come in and taken control. He did not want the bishop to come in because he wanted to be the pastor of the people. Next example, when the people wanted to retain an attorney he rose up against that, again because he has his own motivations. This mole knew if they got an attorney and won he might not remain in power. He wants to pastor badly, at any cost. Mark my word, it won't be two long before he has his brother in there prophesying over people. (Side note: his brother has been divorced and has never been faithful to any church, he is a prolific church-hopper. He is not qualified to prophesy over anybody. No respectable church would have him in their pulpit.)
If the "people that left the church" knew the real circumstances and were aware of these examples, they would not follow this man.
"And the plot thickens!" WOW!
StillStanding
08-13-2012, 03:29 PM
I see there is some talk about a "mole" or two. The two people that are considered "moles", both of them had their own agendas. The first 'mole', the one that spent time in federal prison, he seems to be a "true mole" in that he was relaying information back and forth. You will note that he has not even left the church nor was he given a certified letter to leave the church. You must ask yourself a question...how could a person be so close to the people that have left yet he chose to stay when they chose to leave? And the "daughter" did not force him to leave??
As for the second "mole", he has been in this for himself the whole time. He does not work for the daughter and does not work for the people or their best interest. He has had his own personal motivation the whole time. For example, after the election where the "boyfriend" was voted down, he (the mole) was supposed to call for a vote against the "daughter" immediately but he chose not to do this because if he did and she were voted out the "bishop from Michigan" would have immediately come in and taken control. He did not want the bishop to come in because he wanted to be the pastor of the people. Next example, when the people wanted to retain an attorney he rose up against that, again because he has his own motivations. This mole knew if they got an attorney and won he might not remain in power. He wants to pastor badly, at any cost. Mark my word, it won't be two long before he has his brother in there prophesying over people. (Side note: his brother has been divorced and has never been faithful to any church, he is a prolific church-hopper. He is not qualified to prophesy over anybody. No respectable church would have him in their pulpit.)
If the "people that left the church" knew the real circumstances and were aware of these examples, they would not follow this man.
http://www.united-vision-entertainment.com/wp-content/uploads/shocked.jpg
I was cleaning out my emails today (I am an email hoarder. ;)) when I came across an old email of someone accusing me of being a hypocrite for money's sake. This was not someone who attended the church when we pastored there but he had assisted the previous pastor before we got there. Wow, I had forgotten I had gotten that. This was a few years after we left there that I got the email. It still boggles my mind that people actually think we stole money. It hurts every time I run across something like that. And then I wonder if I should write about the hurt or just try to forget it all ever happened.....
AreYouReady?
08-13-2012, 06:00 PM
The only way out is through it.
Your brain will never let you forget about it. It will continue to come back and haunt you every time you find yourself in a situation that reminds you of what you endured.
Start another thread if you want to discuss it or if not, then get out your writing tablet and write yourself through it.
Just remember that God knows you never stole any money from that church. Now you just have to convince yourself not to succumb to Satan trying to make you feel guilty over something you never did.
The only way out is through it.
Your brain will never let you forget about it. It will continue to come back and haunt you every time you find yourself in a situation that reminds you of what you endured.
Start another thread if you want to discuss it or if not, then get out your writing tablet and write yourself through it.
Just remember that God knows you never stole any money from that church. Now you just have to convince yourself not to succumb to Satan trying to make you feel guilty over something you never did.
Thanks, AYR. I was so scared to write what I did on this thread today. I get so scared of opening up about this. My brain seems to think things are like they were then when I start to open up and that scores of people will avalanche me with accusations and beat me mercilessly. Your answer brought tears to my eyes. Just having someone not yell at me for talking about it helps a lot. I don't think I can start a thread about the subject. It makes me feel too raw but I greatly appreciate your response. Thanks. It seems I can only talk in little spurts. ;)
deacon blues
08-13-2012, 07:47 PM
Amazing a thread like this gets 25,000+ views in a few weeks...
Other threads with substance and that are uplifting/inspirational get very few...
And we wonder why things happen in churches like this? I read about 3 pages worth and I decided I need to go take a shower...
I wish I hadn't read any of it...
As sand through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.
Amazing a thread like this gets 25,000+ views in a few weeks...
Other threads with substance and that are uplifting/inspirational get very few...
And we wonder why things happen in churches like this? I read about 3 pages worth and I decided I need to go take a shower...
I wish I hadn't read any of it...
HeavenBound
08-13-2012, 08:22 PM
I see there is some talk about a "mole" or two. The two people that are considered "moles", both of them had their own agendas. The first 'mole', the one that spent time in federal prison, he seems to be a "true mole" in that he was relaying information back and forth. You will note that he has not even left the church nor was he given a certified letter to leave the church. You must ask yourself a question...how could a person be so close to the people that have left yet he chose to stay when they chose to leave? And the "daughter" did not force him to leave??
As for the second "mole", he has been in this for himself the whole time. He does not work for the daughter and does not work for the people or their best interest. He has had his own personal motivation the whole time. For example, after the election where the "boyfriend" was voted down, he (the mole) was supposed to call for a vote against the "daughter" immediately but he chose not to do this because if he did and she were voted out the "bishop from Michigan" would have immediately come in and taken control. He did not want the bishop to come in because he wanted to be the pastor of the people. Next example, when the people wanted to retain an attorney he rose up against that, again because he has his own motivations. This mole knew if they got an attorney and won he might not remain in power. He wants to pastor badly, at any cost. Mark my word, it won't be two long before he has his brother in there prophesying over people. (Side note: his brother has been divorced and has never been faithful to any church, he is a prolific church-hopper. He is not qualified to prophesy over anybody. No respectable church would have him in their pulpit.)
If the "people that left the church" knew the real circumstances and were aware of these examples, they would not follow this man.
I was given a letter saying I could not step foot on the property, but I do every Sunday. Some people, I am one are still waiting on a miracle. We are waiting for God to move on this problem. You should be ashamed to talk about a good man like you have. He is waiting on God not you or I to tell him what he should do. He advised the ones that left , that they were making a mistake but they were convinced otherwise. As for *** he should be ashamed of himself. He has done as much as Bro. ** to cause problems at the church. He is causing a 3 way split now. As for a vote being called about ** you are wrong we don't have to vote about her.
:foottap
Margies3
08-13-2012, 08:34 PM
Amazing a thread like this gets 25,000+ views in a few weeks...
Other threads with substance and that are uplifting/inspirational get very few...
And we wonder why things happen in churches like this? I read about 3 pages worth and I decided I need to go take a shower...
I wish I hadn't read any of it...
and yet you felt the need to respond? If you feel that strongly that something like this should not be discussed here, then wouldn't it make more sense for you to just step back and let it die a slow death? By responding you are keeping it alive.
And for the record, I have a feeling that there are some people who need to talk thru this. I can't even imagine the pain that those people are in right now. Maybe they won't get any answers here but at least they can get if off their chests.
Ok, I'm backing back out now. This is not my fight.
HeavenBound
08-13-2012, 08:36 PM
Back to the original subject. I would like to say I have known the Johnson family all my life. Brother Johnson preached my graduation service, visited Brazil, supported us for many years. I am very sad good people are going through this problem but I can assure you that neither Brother Charles or Brother David can do anything other than what we can do...pray...and that is the most important thing at this point. I hate things like this are discussed on the web for the guilty have their minds made up and the innocent suffer...Bishop was a good man I know he may have failed in getting someone before he passed however he is not alive to defend himself...
The problem is not that *name removed by admin* didn't provide us with someone. The problem is he is not wanted as the Pastor by the majority of the Church.
Dordrecht
08-13-2012, 10:13 PM
The problem is he is not wanted as the Pastor by the majority of the Church.
What if the Lord wants him there?
Would the majority leave the church?
kingsmen
08-14-2012, 08:10 AM
I see that the first part of my post was not well liked by somebody. It must have been the part about prison. But tell me really, name one thing in my post that is factually incorrect. You can't. Its all true.
As for the second part, his ambition outweighs his shame.
I have seen it said that the Bishop "did not provide" someone to take over the church or that he provided the "boyfriend". Let's clear that up for everybody right now. The Bishop said mulitple times, before he was "mentally diminished", that the "boyfriend" was not annointed to pastor the church and could not handle the job. It was only after he was "mentally diminished" and "under the control of the daughter" that the "boyfriend" was nominated. You put enough pills in a man that has Alzheimer's, give him a script and rehearse it with him, he will say what you want.
As far as the Bishop not having someone in place before he became "mentally diminished", he attempted to put somebody in place several times, but he was always worked against and double teamed by the "daughter" and "boyfriend".
Timmy
08-14-2012, 08:42 AM
What if the Lord wants him there?
Good question. (I think I asked it early in the thread.) But, how could you tell? :hmmm
Timmy
08-14-2012, 08:44 AM
This thread is less than two months old, and already it's threatening to overtake Timmy Talk (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=25404) in views. :lol
HeavenBound
08-14-2012, 09:17 AM
What if the Lord wants him there?
Would the majority leave the church?
They left
HeavenBound
08-14-2012, 09:27 AM
I see that the first part of my post was not well liked by somebody. It must have been the part about prison. But tell me really, name one thing in my post that is factually incorrect. You can't. Its all true.
As for the second part, his ambition outweighs his shame.
I have seen it said that the Bishop "did not provide" someone to take over the church or that he provided the "boyfriend". Let's clear that up for everybody right now. The Bishop said mulitple times, before he was "mentally diminished", that the "boyfriend" was not annointed to pastor the church and could not handle the job. It was only after he was "mentally diminished" and "under the control of the daughter" that the "boyfriend" was nominated. You put enough pills in a man that has Alzheimer's, give him a script and rehearse it with him, he will say what you want.
As far as the Bishop not having someone in place before he became "mentally diminished", he attempted to put somebody in place several times, but he was always worked against and double teamed by the "daughter" and "boyfriend".
Could you please give me proof of the evidence of what you say? Anyone can just say such as this happened but I would love to have some substantiated PROOF. I can tell by your words you are a mud slinger from way back. Sounds like you are saying ** doped her Father up. Shame on you for being a tale bearer if you didn't see it with your own eyes or hear it with your own ears don't let it be said that you spread it with your writings or your big mouth. Who were these people that *name removed by admin* attempted to put in place, I must have slept through that. Because, *name removed by admin* was not the kind to attempt to do things, He did them. Also, my name is Betty Meeks and I don't hide behind a made up name, can you say the same?
my kids mom
08-14-2012, 10:39 AM
I Have been asked by members of HEART OF PRAISE EVERLASTING to set the record straight once and for all. First of all, the amazing group that left, has been through the fire, but has finally come out. They were hurt by the people they called friends, but not one of them has a bad word to say about any of them. They have left GR and have started a new family. They were not lead by any one person, it was a group decision, and one that was made after many sleepless nights spent in prayer and fasting. They want you all to know they have no hard feelings toward anyone, but at the same time, they no longer have a concern about anything pertaining to GR. Not the building, the pastor, or any properties that may be attached to GR. The man that has been under such scrutiny, the man they are bashing for "splitting the church" RH has never one time said or led anyone to believe he wanted to become pastor. His response and attitude this entire time has always been, whatever the people want and whatever the will of God is. They have had visiting preachers every Sunday and the power of God has been amazing. One prayed back through, one filled with the Holy Ghost, and praying and singing that is under the powerful anointing. They have a new location, a new name and God is blessing their integrity to worship together as a body. This has brought them to their knees, which has sweetened their relationship with their God and with their fellow worshipers. Thanks to everyone that has been praying for this group of people, they have made it through. They do NOT feel like the victims, they feel like they are in the perfect will of GOD!!!!!!!
Good question. (I think I asked it early in the thread.) But, how could you tell? :hmmm
Cast lots.
Timmy
08-14-2012, 11:26 AM
Cast lots.
Why didn't I think of that? :lol
Why didn't I think of that? :lol
It's the biblical way!!!
I Have been asked by members of HEART OF PRAISE EVERLASTING to set the record straight once and for all. First of all, the amazing group that left, has been through the fire, but has finally come out. They were hurt by the people they called friends, but not one of them has a bad word to say about any of them. They have left GR and have started a new family. They were not lead by any one person, it was a group decision, and one that was made after many sleepless nights spent in prayer and fasting. They want you all to know they have no hard feelings toward anyone, but at the same time, they no longer have a concern about anything pertaining to GR. Not the building, the pastor, or any properties that may be attached to GR. The man that has been under such scrutiny, the man they are bashing for "splitting the church" RH has never one time said or led anyone to believe he wanted to become pastor. His response and attitude this entire time has always been, whatever the people want and whatever the will of God is. They have had visiting preachers every Sunday and the power of God has been amazing. One prayed back through, one filled with the Holy Ghost, and praying and singing that is under the powerful anointing. They have a new location, a new name and God is blessing their integrity to worship together as a body. This has brought them to their knees, which has sweetened their relationship with their God and with their fellow worshipers. Thanks to everyone that has been praying for this group of people, they have made it through. They do NOT feel like the victims, they feel like they are in the perfect will of GOD!!!!!!!
YourKidsMom,
Thanks for this report. I am glad that the group who left are not allowing any attachments to buildings, location, or other earthly things come between them and continuing to worship and serve God.
HeavenBound
08-14-2012, 01:17 PM
I Have been asked by members of HEART OF PRAISE EVERLASTING to set the record straight once and for all. First of all, the amazing group that left, has been through the fire, but has finally come out. They were hurt by the people they called friends, but not one of them has a bad word to say about any of them. They have left GR and have started a new family. They were not lead by any one person, it was a group decision, and one that was made after many sleepless nights spent in prayer and fasting. They want you all to know they have no hard feelings toward anyone, but at the same time, they no longer have a concern about anything pertaining to GR. Not the building, the pastor, or any properties that may be attached to GR. The man that has been under such scrutiny, the man they are bashing for "splitting the church" RH has never one time said or led anyone to believe he wanted to become pastor. His response and attitude this entire time has always been, whatever the people want and whatever the will of God is. They have had visiting preachers every Sunday and the power of God has been amazing. One prayed back through, one filled with the Holy Ghost, and praying and singing that is under the powerful anointing. They have a new location, a new name and God is blessing their integrity to worship together as a body. This has brought them to their knees, which has sweetened their relationship with their God and with their fellow worshipers. Thanks to everyone that has been praying for this group of people, they have made it through. They do NOT feel like the victims, they feel like they are in the perfect will of GOD!!!!!!!
I am totally amazed at this since several of the people from HOPE have called me today asking if it is to late to get GR back. The visiting preacher this Sunday did not preach, RH did. Glad that things are doing so well though. But, next time you speak for everyone please make sure you are.
HeavenBound
08-14-2012, 01:20 PM
Jeremiah 23..1-4:foottap
bbyrd009
08-14-2012, 09:03 PM
It's the biblical way!!!zing!
my kids mom
08-14-2012, 09:10 PM
I am totally amazed at this since several of the people from HOPE have called me today asking if it is to late to get GR back. The visiting preacher this Sunday did not preach, RH did. Glad that things are doing so well though. But, next time you speak for everyone please make sure you are.
With all respect, Betty, If you will read my comment, I did not say I was speaking for ALL members. I said I was speaking for Members of H.O.P.E I could not speak for all members since I do not know the heart of others, Only the ones that have asked me to speak on their behalf. Yes, R.H. did preach Sunday, but there was a visiting preacher there, as has been every Sunday service. Honestly, no one is trying to "one up" anyone. These people love the members of G.R. they have worshiped together for years. They have watched their children grow up together, they have built buildings together, and have buried loved ones. I am only letting anyone interested in knowing, that this body of worshipers has moved on. No hard feelings, no resentment, no looking back. They left all baggage at the door, and the power of God is honoring their strength to do so. I also am not afraid to tell you who I am, I am Pam Hook, formerly known as Pam Adams. I am the very proud daughter of Bobby and Nancy Adams, and I speak for them. I have not heard my parents utter one bad word against anyone of you, not once. They have spent hours in prayer and looking to God for the right thing to do. I have seen the joy on their faces that has been missing for some time. The reason we are here is to worship God and Glorify Him FOREVER!!!!!! Speaking ill against the people we call our "friends" brings Him no Glory. Their message is simply this. We are happy, we are a new church and we have a new beginning. We love G.R and always will. We love the people, and always will. It was just time for change for us....It's time to let it go, and be a loyal member to whichever church you decide. Love these people instead of playing both sides... As for my parents, they have made their choice and they are being blessed as a result. Get in the Word and on your knees, and God will also direct you to make the right choice. He never fails you, never.
PossiblyHeavenBound and YourKidsMom,
Hopefully now that the dust has settled and the group staying got their daughter / boyfriend Pastor and the group leaving has moved on without bitter feelings of having to leave the church they invested so much time, energy, and emotion in, people can act like adults and not only adults but Christain adults and forgive and love each other.
I have a feeling about now would be a good time for some good sermons on the fruit of the Spirit at both churches after such an emotional roller coaster.
One thing is certain and that is that Gods justice may not be immediate but it is ultimate. If I were guilty of manipulating a church for financial gain or any other reason I would be in fear for the consequences. Thankfully those consequences will be meted out by God. It is our jobs as humans to forgive and move on.
HeavenBound
08-15-2012, 06:43 AM
With all respect, Betty, If you will read my comment, I did not say I was speaking for ALL members. I said I was speaking for Members of H.O.P.E I could not speak for all members since I do not know the heart of others, Only the ones that have asked me to speak on their behalf. Yes, R.H. did preach Sunday, but there was a visiting preacher there, as has been every Sunday service. Honestly, no one is trying to "one up" anyone. These people love the members of G.R. they have worshiped together for years. They have watched their children grow up together, they have built buildings together, and have buried loved ones. I am only letting anyone interested in knowing, that this body of worshipers has moved on. No hard feelings, no resentment, no looking back. They left all baggage at the door, and the power of God is honoring their strength to do so. I also am not afraid to tell you who I am, I am Pam Hook, formerly known as Pam Adams. I am the very proud daughter of Bobby and Nancy Adams, and I speak for them. I have not heard my parents utter one bad word against anyone of you, not once. They have spent hours in prayer and looking to God for the right thing to do. I have seen the joy on their faces that has been missing for some time. The reason we are here is to worship God and Glorify Him FOREVER!!!!!! Speaking ill against the people we call our "friends" brings Him no Glory. Their message is simply this. We are happy, we are a new church and we have a new beginning. We love G.R and always will. We love the people, and always will. It was just time for change for us....It's time to let it go, and be a loyal member to whichever church you decide. Love these people instead of playing both sides... As for my parents, they have made their choice and they are being blessed as a result. Get in the Word and on your knees, and God will also direct you to make the right choice. He never fails you, never.
Excuse me but you weren't a member of Grey Road Church. Your parents were and they chose to leave and there was nothing wrong with their choice, as there is nothing wrong with my choice to stay and wait for God to move on this situation, also the whole congregation which I am one of them did not leave. Just because I stayed does not mean I approve of the situation, means I am where I think God wants me to be. But, you did make it sound as if you were speaking for the whole congregation and I just pointed out you weren't. Sorry if I was wrong. You don't know me or you wouldn't tell me to quit playing both sides, there is only one side and that is what is Right. I do love these people that is why this injustice to the cream of the crop hurts me so. I have not spoken "ill" of people, I have told of some wrongs that were done to some saints. Some people have thanked me for this and then there are the ones like you. Have a Blessed day and yes stay in the Word and on your knees and you will always be directed to the right choice.
God Bless the next chapter of your lives.
I Have been asked by members of HEART OF PRAISE EVERLASTING to set the record straight once and for all. First of all, the amazing group that left, has been through the fire, but has finally come out. They were hurt by the people they called friends, but not one of them has a bad word to say about any of them. They have left GR and have started a new family. They were not lead by any one person, it was a group decision, and one that was made after many sleepless nights spent in prayer and fasting. They want you all to know they have no hard feelings toward anyone, but at the same time, they no longer have a concern about anything pertaining to GR. Not the building, the pastor, or any properties that may be attached to GR. The man that has been under such scrutiny, the man they are bashing for "splitting the church" RH has never one time said or led anyone to believe he wanted to become pastor. His response and attitude this entire time has always been, whatever the people want and whatever the will of God is. They have had visiting preachers every Sunday and the power of God has been amazing. One prayed back through, one filled with the Holy Ghost, and praying and singing that is under the powerful anointing. They have a new location, a new name and God is blessing their integrity to worship together as a body. This has brought them to their knees, which has sweetened their relationship with their God and with their fellow worshipers. Thanks to everyone that has been praying for this group of people, they have made it through. They do NOT feel like the victims, they feel like they are in the perfect will of GOD!!!!!!!
With all respect, Betty, If you will read my comment, I did not say I was speaking for ALL members. I said I was speaking for Members of H.O.P.E I could not speak for all members since I do not know the heart of others, Only the ones that have asked me to speak on their behalf. Yes, R.H. did preach Sunday, but there was a visiting preacher there, as has been every Sunday service. Honestly, no one is trying to "one up" anyone. These people love the members of G.R. they have worshiped together for years. They have watched their children grow up together, they have built buildings together, and have buried loved ones. I am only letting anyone interested in knowing, that this body of worshipers has moved on. No hard feelings, no resentment, no looking back. They left all baggage at the door, and the power of God is honoring their strength to do so. I also am not afraid to tell you who I am, I am Pam Hook, formerly known as Pam Adams. I am the very proud daughter of Bobby and Nancy Adams, and I speak for them. I have not heard my parents utter one bad word against anyone of you, not once. They have spent hours in prayer and looking to God for the right thing to do. I have seen the joy on their faces that has been missing for some time. The reason we are here is to worship God and Glorify Him FOREVER!!!!!! Speaking ill against the people we call our "friends" brings Him no Glory. Their message is simply this. We are happy, we are a new church and we have a new beginning. We love G.R and always will. We love the people, and always will. It was just time for change for us....It's time to let it go, and be a loyal member to whichever church you decide. Love these people instead of playing both sides... As for my parents, they have made their choice and they are being blessed as a result. Get in the Word and on your knees, and God will also direct you to make the right choice. He never fails you, never.
I really appreciate the spirit you write this in. It sounds like your parents and some others have made some good choices.
Rapture 1
08-15-2012, 11:10 AM
I see there is some talk about a "mole" or two. The two people that are considered "moles", both of them had their own agendas. The first 'mole', the one that spent time in federal prison, he seems to be a "true mole" in that he was relaying information back and forth. You will note that he has not even left the church nor was he given a certified letter to leave the church. You must ask yourself a question...how could a person be so close to the people that have left yet he chose to stay when they chose to leave? And the "daughter" did not force him to leave??
As for the second "mole", he has been in this for himself the whole time. He does not work for the daughter and does not work for the people or their best interest. He has had his own personal motivation the whole time. For example, after the election where the "boyfriend" was voted down, he (the mole) was supposed to call for a vote against the "daughter" immediately but he chose not to do this because if he did and she were voted out the "bishop from Michigan" would have immediately come in and taken control. He did not want the bishop to come in because he wanted to be the pastor of the people. Next example, when the people wanted to retain an attorney he rose up against that, again because he has his own motivations. This mole knew if they got an attorney and won he might not remain in power. He wants to pastor badly, at any cost. Mark my word, it won't be two long before he has his brother in there prophesying over people. (Side note: his brother has been divorced and has never been faithful to any church, he is a prolific church-hopper. He is not qualified to prophesy over anybody. No respectable church would have him in their pulpit.)
If the "people that left the church" knew the real circumstances and were aware of these examples, they would not follow this man.
Shame on you!!!! Saying something about one of the men at church. So what if he spent some time in Federal Prison. That dosn't mean he was guilty, just made wrong choices in picking his buisness associates. And the fact that he has stayed, if he says he's waiting for a miracle, then I BELIEVE in miracles. Some of your other information is wrong, also. It wasn't discussed about voting out the "daughter", she dosn't hold a position to vote on(she just runs the place). I think you are one, of the ones who have found out the truth about the "daughter and boyfriend" and are turning turn-coat. So you are angry with "them" and the others that have left. In other words you are just ANGRY! :foottap:
Charnock
08-15-2012, 11:54 AM
This thread is an abomination.
Reading this, why would anyone want to be Apostolic?
RandyWayne
08-15-2012, 12:34 PM
This thread is an abomination.
Reading this, why would anyone want to be Apostolic?
Well, I've gone to some restaurants and had horrible steaks. I mean just plain bad!
But I still love steak!
bbyrd009
08-15-2012, 12:49 PM
The term is essentially meaningless.
People are people.
Rapture 1
08-15-2012, 02:54 PM
This thread is an abomination.
Reading this, why would anyone want to be Apostolic?
This is not a reflection on the Apostolic truth!! This is about PEOPLE and what happens when they don't have a pastor. What happens to sheep when they lose their shepherd? GR church hasn't had a shepherd in a long time. This is not the first time this has happened and won't be the last. People need to be aware of this and not let it happen. This could have been prevented and a lot of people would not have been hurt if someone had of stepped up and done something. But when so many of the men of the church die off or move off and not many members left,it's hard to tell your pastor he needs to step down and let someone else lead. The Apostolic truth is the same as it has always been and always will be. I would not trade it for anything!!
This is not a reflection on the Apostolic truth!! This is about PEOPLE and what happens when they don't have a pastor. What happens to sheep when they lose their shepherd? GR church hasn't had a shepherd in a long time. This is not the first time this has happened and won't be the last. People need to be aware of this and not let it happen. This could have been prevented and a lot of people would not have been hurt if someone had of stepped up and done something. But when so many of the men of the church die off or move off and not many members left,it's hard to tell your pastor he needs to step down and let someone else lead. The Apostolic truth is the same as it has always been and always will be. I would not trade it for anything!!
Your post is the 666th in this thread. Gasp!:runhills
Rapture 1
08-15-2012, 03:16 PM
Your post is the 666th in this thread. Gasp!:runhills
WOW!!! I wish I had of known!!!
AreYouReady?
08-15-2012, 03:16 PM
Hahahahaha!
WOW!!! I wish I had of known!!!
Maybe you could delete it! LOL!
HeavenBound
08-15-2012, 03:42 PM
:foottap
HeavenBound
08-15-2012, 04:15 PM
I see there is some talk about a "mole" or two. The two people that are considered "moles", both of them had their own agendas. The first 'mole', the one that spent time in federal prison, he seems to be a "true mole" in that he was relaying information back and forth. You will note that he has not even left the church nor was he given a certified letter to leave the church. You must ask yourself a question...how could a person be so close to the people that have left yet he chose to stay when they chose to leave? And the "daughter" did not force him to leave??
As for the second "mole", he has been in this for himself the whole time. He does not work for the daughter and does not work for the people or their best interest. He has had his own personal motivation the whole time. For example, after the election where the "boyfriend" was voted down, he (the mole) was supposed to call for a vote against the "daughter" immediately but he chose not to do this because if he did and she were voted out the "bishop from Michigan" would have immediately come in and taken control. He did not want the bishop to come in because he wanted to be the pastor of the people. Next example, when the people wanted to retain an attorney he rose up against that, again because he has his own motivations. This mole knew if they got an attorney and won he might not remain in power. He wants to pastor badly, at any cost. Mark my word, it won't be two long before he has his brother in there prophesying over people. (Side note: his brother has been divorced and has never been faithful to any church, he is a prolific church-hopper. He is not qualified to prophesy over anybody. No respectable church would have him in their pulpit.)
If the "people that left the church" knew the real circumstances and were aware of these examples, they would not follow this man.
Shame on you for talking about a good man of God,so he went to prison (so did a lot of the apostle's Peter, Paul, John are a few that come to mind). He and his wife are waiting for God to take care of the situation,I and my husband are waiting also. We still believe in a God who performs miracles. We prayed and until we feel God wants us in a different place this is where we will stay. "God has a perfect plan for us. He never does it all at once, just step by step because he wants to teach us to walk by Faith not by sight".
You sound very bitter , I know how easy it is to slip into a bitter frame of mind over this, I had to do a lot of praying and soul searching today because I was headed that way. I want to say I apologize if I offended anyone with any of these posts, and ask for forgiveness, especially from the Hayse family. I was speaking from anger that we weren't in agreement over how some things should be dealt with and lashed out when I should have been praying.
Oh heavens, now this thread has degenerated into battling posts between the leavers and the stayers!
Both sides need to just hush up and be happy with their decision about what to do.
If you want to nitpick each other about details of what is going on then just PM each other. No need to share it with the world on a public forum.
I am sure we have all already formed our opinions based on the information published. I know I have. In my case my opinion is that anybody who would stay after the kind of manipulation the church leadership has shown is out of their mind.
Yes as much as I am for allowing people to emote....discussion between members who disagree should be private IMO....the forum should be for emoting and getting some support or figuring out where you stand etc. But battles between members, I don't think should be public. Just my two cents....
StillStanding
08-15-2012, 06:58 PM
My view from the bleachers:
Many of the ones that left are at the beginning stages of accepting things and moving on in another direction. I do believe they would probably all return to GR if things were to change soon!
The ones who are sticking around and hoping for a miracle aren't happy with those who abandoned GR. They feel that they are taking the high moral and spiritual ground by waiting for God to make the crooked way straight.
All if these folks are good people. They all agree with the solution, but disagree on how and when to hold on or let go. I just don't like to see them turn on each other. Let's keep the main thing the main thing!
My view from the bleachers:
Many of the ones that left are at the beginning stages of accepting things and moving on in another direction. I do believe they would probably all return to GR if things were to change soon!
The ones who are sticking around and hoping for a miracle aren't happy with those who abandoned GR. They feel that they are taking the high moral and spiritual ground by waiting for God to make the crooked way straight.
All if these folks are good people. They all agree with the solution, but disagree on how and when to hold on or let go. I just don't like to see them turn on each other. Let's keep the main thing the main thing!
Those sticking around hoping for a miracle will probably have better look finding a pony at the bottom of a pile......... The bottom line is that the two people creating this nightmare through control and manipulation are not going to suddenly see the error of their ways, repent, and become good upstanding citizens with the best interest of the church in mind. To hang around for that is people deluding themselves I am sad to say. Hopefully if they don't see their "miracle" in a reasonable amount of time they will remove themselves from this mess.
AreYouReady?
08-15-2012, 08:19 PM
The term is essentially meaningless.
People are people.
Quite true. I see no difference, as a whole in people as far as tolerance, love, hate, indifference, zeal for their beliefs etc.
As I look a little deeper into the pool of humans, I can find loving, kind Christians, but they are not all "Apostolic". I've met some people who genuinely love Christ and live their life for Him....and they are not "apostolic".
AreYouReady?
08-15-2012, 08:20 PM
Oh heavens, now this thread has degenerated into battling posts between the leavers and the stayers!
Both sides need to just hush up and be happy with their decision about what to do.
If you want to nitpick each other about details of what is going on then just PM each other. No need to share it with the world on a public forum.
I am sure we have all already formed our opinions based on the information published. I know I have. In my case my opinion is that anybody who would stay after the kind of manipulation the church leadership has shown is out of their mind.
:thumbsup
Rapture 1
08-16-2012, 07:13 AM
Quite true. I see no difference, as a whole in people as far as tolerance, love, hate, indifference, zeal for their beliefs etc.
As I look a little deeper into the pool of humans, I can find loving, kind Christians, but they are not all "Apostolic". I've met some people who genuinely love Christ and live their life for Him....and they are not "apostolic".
When I use the name "apostolic" I'm referring to the apostles doctrine, according to the book of Acts, not the name of a church. And, you are right about people as a whole. I'm amazed a lot of times at the loving, kind people who don't even go to a church, and then I look at some who do and their mean hateful attitude. It does make you stop and think!
Timmy
08-16-2012, 08:46 AM
When I use the name "apostolic" I'm referring to the apostles doctrine, according to the book of Acts, not the name of a church. And, you are right about people as a whole. I'm amazed a lot of times at the loving, kind people who don't even go to a church, and then I look at some who do and their mean hateful attitude. It does make you stop and think!
Don't think about it too much. :winkgrin
HeavenBound
08-16-2012, 09:42 AM
[QUOTE=ILG;1182173]Yes as much as I am for allowing people to emote....discussion between members who disagree should be private IMO....the forum should be for emoting and getting some support or figuring out where you stand etc. But battles between members, I don't think should be public. Just my two cents....[/Q
I, personally don't think just members are posting. Some are posting that have not been to GR since they were 18 years old except to visit. But, they know everything or so they say. :blah
Michael Phelps
08-16-2012, 09:49 AM
I, personally don't think just members are posting. Some are posting that have not been to GR since they were 18 years old except to visit. But, they know everything or so they say. :blah
Here, let me see if I can put this fire out with this gasoline! :happydance
Sister Alvear
08-16-2012, 09:53 AM
I really hate threads like this or even started...because in the end the sheep end up suffering...the wolves don't care...
HeavenBound
08-16-2012, 10:22 AM
This will be my last post as this has not really helped. Yes, it let us vent and get it out there what is going on, but no real solution has been found except the one we already had and that is prayer. I have tried to be truthful in the things I posted . I slipped up once and again I apologize and hope for forgiveness. I hold no bitterness toward anyone and love and miss the members who left and want to say that I am happy for them, that they are having Holy Ghost filled services. Obviously God is smiling on their endeavors as they are growing in members. Praise the Lord!! I feel they did what they feel God wanted them to do and us who stayed are doing what we feel God wants us to do. They also serve who only stand and wait. Also to the person who posted that us waiting on a miracle was like expecting to find a pony at the bottom of a well, God can put one there ye of little faith.
If everyone were clothed in integrity, if every heart were just,frank,kindly, the other virtues would be almost useless,since their chief purpose is to make us bear with patience the injustice of our fellowman.
He who slings mud loses ground.:nod
StillStanding
08-16-2012, 10:55 AM
This will be my last post as this has not really helped. Yes, it let us vent and get it out there what is going on, but no real solution has been found except the one we already had and that is prayer. I have tried to be truthful in the things I posted . I slipped up once and again I apologize and hope for forgiveness. I hold no bitterness toward anyone and love and miss the members who left and want to say that I am happy for them, that they are having Holy Ghost filled services. Obviously God is smiling on their endeavors as they are growing in members. Praise the Lord!! I feel they did what they feel God wanted them to do and us who stayed are doing what we feel God wants us to do. They also serve who only stand and wait. Also to the person who posted that us waiting on a miracle was like expecting to find a pony at the bottom of a well, God can put one there ye of little faith.
If everyone were clothed in integrity, if every heart were just,frank,kindly, the other virtues would be almost useless,since their chief purpose is to make us bear with patience the injustice of our fellowman.
He who slings mud loses ground.:nod
All of us just want to be in the will of God by doing what we believe to be the right thing. It's all OK, as long as we accept the fact that others can look at the same circumstances with the same heart for God, and come to a different conclusion. Many blessings to all of the GR saints!:praying
Rapture 1
08-16-2012, 05:03 PM
Don't think about it too much. :winkgrin
Okay! I'm not thinking!!!:nod
Rapture 1
08-16-2012, 05:04 PM
Maybe you could delete it! LOL!
I tried!! :girlytantrum
I tried!! :girlytantrum
Ah, well, it's buried now.....
Rapture 1
08-17-2012, 09:16 AM
Ah, well, it's buried now.....
Does that erase the 666???:angelsad
Does that erase the 666???:angelsad
No, so sorry. Maybe you can confess to the priest and do penance. ;)
Rapture 1
08-17-2012, 11:26 AM
No, so sorry. Maybe you can confess to the priest and do penance. ;)
Ha!! Funny!! LOL!:thumbsup
Rapture 1
08-21-2012, 06:21 AM
Well, they are planning a big celebration Friday night and Saturday, to install ** in as pastor. The "Bishop" has been going around to other churches to try to get people to come to it. That's the only way they will have any people there. There were only about 20 people there Sunday. The "daughter's" son-in-law is going to be the assistant pastor. The only time he has ever been on the pulpit is to make announcements. He is not even a good speaker, and is not a preacher. Like ** he dosn't give eye contact, he has to read from a script.
AreYouReady?
08-21-2012, 10:04 AM
A teleprompter preacher?
:toofunny
BeenThinkin
08-21-2012, 10:34 AM
A teleprompter preacher?
:toofunny
I've seen a few that I wished they had a teleprompter! :happydance
Been Thinkin
Michael Phelps
08-21-2012, 10:35 AM
Well, they are planning a big celebration Friday night and Saturday, to install ** in as pastor. The "Bishop" has been going around to other churches to try to get people to come to it. That's the only way they will have any people there. There were only about 20 people there Sunday. The "daughter's" son-in-law is going to be the assistant pastor. The only time he has ever been on the pulpit is to make announcements. He is not even a good speaker, and is not a preacher. Like ** he dosn't give eye contact, he has to read from a script.
And we we are continuing on with this public narrative why?
Margies3
08-21-2012, 12:24 PM
And we we are continuing on with this public narrative why?
Just in case you felt the urge to drive from Omaha to be at this service, Michael. It's your private invitation.
Rapture 1
08-21-2012, 01:35 PM
And we we are continuing on with this public narrative why?
Maybe it's because of some like you, who can't understand it the first time. Get out of the water, Michael, and get some oxygen. LOL.:heeheehee
Rapture 1
08-21-2012, 01:39 PM
A teleprompter preacher?
:toofunny
We have known this "son-in-law" for many years and just found out he is a preacher. Surprise!! Well, he fits right in, because I've never seen him preach without standing in one place, reading from some notes, and sometimes never looking up once.:poetic
Michael Phelps
08-21-2012, 01:50 PM
Maybe it's because of some like you, who can't understand it the first time. Get out of the water, Michael, and get some oxygen. LOL.:heeheehee
I don't need to understand it, don't want to understand it, but apparently, you feel the overwhelming urge to shove it down our throats. Why don't you and your buddy Heavenbound take it behind closed doors?
Rapture 1
08-21-2012, 03:12 PM
I don't need to understand it, don't want to understand it, but apparently, you feel the overwhelming urge to shove it down our throats. Why don't you and your buddy Heavenbound take it behind closed doors?
Why do you bother reading this?????:foottap
Michael Phelps
08-21-2012, 03:17 PM
Why do you bother reading this?????:foottap
I don't give two flips about it, but I hate for the new members of this forum to be introduced to it.
Why do you bother posting it?????
rgcraig
08-21-2012, 03:19 PM
Why do you bother reading this?????:foottap
Could be because he's an admin and they tend to skim through many threads.
Michael Phelps
08-21-2012, 03:21 PM
Could be because he's an admin and they tend to skim through many threads.
Retired Admin :heeheehee
But, old habits die hard!
rgcraig
08-21-2012, 03:24 PM
Retired Admin :heeheehee
But, old habits die hard!
Ah, I didn't realize you gave up the mantle. Guess we can start a retired admin's club!
But, you are so right. I catch myself at times.
Rapture 1
08-21-2012, 04:56 PM
I don't give two flips about it, but I hate for the new members of this forum to be introduced to it.
Why do you bother posting it?????
This is about a wrecked church!!! There are plenty of other things on the forum that you can read about, if you want to!!! But since there isn't anything else to talk about on this subject, then I won't bore you!! Have a good day, Michael!!:surrender
stony ground
08-22-2012, 12:49 AM
I agree with Michael.
Aside from the fact that I feel badly for any of the church's saints who have been hurt in this process, IMHO this thread has long ceased to be about healing and has devolved into gossip and character assassination.
HeavenBound
08-22-2012, 05:39 AM
I don't need to understand it, don't want to understand it, but apparently, you feel the overwhelming urge to shove it down our throats. Why don't you and your buddy Heavenbound take it behind closed doors?
Really Michael? I went into retirement but you just had to bring me out. Instead of skimming maybe you should read everything. Thank you and have a blessed day.
Maybe someone could tell me how to delete posts.
If everyone were clothed with integrity, if every heart were just, frank, kindly, the other virtues would be almost useless, since their chief purpose is to make us bear with patience the injustice of our fellowman.
:amen
Nitehawk013
08-22-2012, 05:56 AM
I hate to say it, but Michael is right. This thread stopped being about askign for help and prayers and turned into a daily update on the gossip vine a while ago.
If there were anythign we could do to fix the mess then there would be merit to it, but no one here can do anything but pray for the situation.
Michael Phelps
08-22-2012, 06:35 AM
I agree with Michael.
Aside from the fact that I feel badly for any of the church's saints who have been hurt in this process, IMHO this thread has long ceased to be about healing and has devolved into gossip and character assassination.
:happydance
Michael Phelps
08-22-2012, 06:37 AM
Really Michael? I went into retirement but you just had to bring me out. Instead of skimming maybe you should read everything. Thank you and have a blessed day.
Maybe someone could tell me how to delete posts.
If everyone were clothed with integrity, if every heart were just, frank, kindly, the other virtues would be almost useless, since their chief purpose is to make us bear with patience the injustice of our fellowman.
:amen
I have read all the posts. And, sorry to say, every time you said you were going to take the high road, you ended your post with a dig against Rapture, and/or the other side. It's very obvious that you two are the main antagonists over this subject, and that's fine, you're both very close to it. That's why you guys should discuss this privately and hope to come to some type of resolution.
The rest of the forum members who may happen to stumble across this thread don't need to be drug into this mudslinging marathon.
No offense, I don't know you, and am not speaking to your character....only to your public dialogue.
deacon blues
08-22-2012, 08:08 AM
I'm a neighboring pastor and the little bit I've heard and know is sickening. I hate church trouble on any front, because it defames the character of Christ and disgraces His Holy Name. Nobody wins with church trouble. I read the first three pages and realized what was being discussed and decided to stop. I don't need to soil my spirit with church gossip. And gossip is anything that is controversial of which I am neither the solution nor the problem. Other churches in the area may benefit by picking up some departing church members (we've had some visit, but we aren't anything close to being traditional, so they haven't returned), but the truth is those people are hurting and need some TLC. The legacy of the Bishop is tarnished by all of this and I hate it for him and his sons and grandsons who are friends of mine. Bishop was a wonderful man. Had coffee with him from time to time and he and I as neighboring pastors had a great relationship. Prayers for all involved.
But this thread needs to die. What is a shame is that there's 30,000 views for this gossip thread, but other threads that are uplifting and encouraging barely get looked at. I guess that's why the National Enquirer, People, Us Weekly and other tabloids sell in the millions while traditional newspapers are going out of business.
OHappyDay
08-23-2012, 02:29 PM
I appreciate what has been said in the last few posts especially from Pastor Mark but this thread has created a particular voice to the people have been done a GREAT WRONG. The thing about darkness is that light must shine and although it is painful and uncomfortable this thread serves to shine a light into this terrible darkness. I have said a couple of times that I feel terrible for the saints that have been forced from the church and the family, the ones with ** still in their names and to the legacy of the Bishop and the Bishop's wife. BUT WE DID NOT CAUSE THIS, IT WAS THE DAUGHTER AND HER BOYFRIEND THAT STARTED THIS AND KEEPS DOING TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE THINGS. This has been her goal and what she planned to do and what she has been doing for several, several years. This is nothing new.
Now their plan is to put on a big production to "anoint" the boyfriend and the son-in-law as pastor and assistant pastor. And it doesn't matter what you and I think or what the Bishop really wanted or what the by-laws said (because they were destroyed); none of this matters because this is what the daughter wants. I find it very ironic that the big guest speaker that they are bringing in for this sham is a man who used to pastor in the area and lost his church because of a moral failure with a woman. I also find it ironic that the only way they will have a crowd for this sham is because the treacherous dog from another state is calling and trying to work up anybody and everybody just to show up, but no descent pastor would be a part of this. I am also sure that the family, will not take kindly to the ones that show up nor will they forget it. Nor will they ever forget what the treacherous dog from another state has done. By the way, might I ask, what does the treacherous dog get out of all of this? What is his motivation? How does he benefit from all of this?
stony ground
08-24-2012, 03:10 AM
Gossip, slander, now schoolyard name-calling. I'm embarrassed that this forum continues to allow such unseemly behavior. Saying your peace is one thing, continuing to try to stir things up and defaming those who aren't here to defend themselves are quite another.
Love keeps no track of wrong. Love is kind. Love doesn't gossip. Love doesn't hold grudges.
I appreciate what has been said in the last few posts especially from Pastor Mark but this thread has created a particular voice to the people have been done a GREAT WRONG. The thing about darkness is that light must shine and although it is painful and uncomfortable this thread serves to shine a light into this terrible darkness. I have said a couple of times that I feel terrible for the saints that have been forced from the church and the family, the ones with ** still in their names and to the legacy of the Bishop and the Bishop's wife. BUT WE DID NOT CAUSE THIS, IT WAS THE DAUGHTER AND HER BOYFRIEND THAT STARTED THIS AND KEEPS DOING TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE THINGS. This has been her goal and what she planned to do and what she has been doing for several, several years. This is nothing new.
Now their plan is to put on a big production to "anoint" the boyfriend and the son-in-law as pastor and assistant pastor. And it doesn't matter what you and I think or what the Bishop really wanted or what the by-laws said (because they were destroyed); none of this matters because this is what the daughter wants. I find it very ironic that the big guest speaker that they are bringing in for this sham is a man who used to pastor in the area and lost his church because of a moral failure with a woman. I also find it ironic that the only way they will have a crowd for this sham is because the treacherous dog from another state is calling and trying to work up anybody and everybody just to show up, but no descent pastor would be a part of this. I am also sure that the family, will not take kindly to the ones that show up nor will they forget it. Nor will they ever forget what the treacherous dog from another state has done. By the way, might I ask, what does the treacherous dog get out of all of this? What is his motivation? How does he benefit from all of this?
Michael Phelps
08-24-2012, 08:45 AM
Gossip, slander, now schoolyard name-calling. I'm embarrassed that this forum continues to allow such unseemly behavior. Saying your peace is one thing, continuing to try to stir things up and defaming those who aren't here to defend themselves are quite another.
Agreed, I'm going to appeal to Admin.
MissBrattified
08-24-2012, 12:59 PM
In fairness to the AFF, as long as names and locations are kept out of the posts, only people who ALREADY know about this situation will know to whom (and where) this thread refers.
Also, 30,000 views doesn't refer to 30,000 unique visitors. 218 AFF members have viewed this thread multiple times. While I'm sure some guests have viewed it as well, I would guess that most of the views are by members.
Michael Phelps
08-25-2012, 07:34 AM
In fairness to the AFF, as long as names and locations are kept out of the posts, only people who ALREADY know about this situation will know to whom (and where) this thread refers.
Also, 30,000 views doesn't refer to 30,000 unique visitors. 218 AFF members have viewed this thread multiple times. While I'm sure some guests have viewed it as well, I would guess that most of the views are by members.
Well, even those who already know the situation are reading the allegations and accusations contained in the posts. And those who don't know don't have to go back in the thread very far to figure it out.
Just when I thought this thread had run its course someone has to post again. Arghhhh.
I really don't think any more can be said or added to this thread. What occurred has been laid out and is a warning to pastors and saints as to what can happen if;
1. A pastor continues to pastor after his health directs otherwise
2. No plan of succession is in place before a pastors health fails
The intent of this thread was not to be a running commentary on what is happening in the specific incident cited. If someone is going to update it needs to be in a calm, rational manner without referring to people as "dogs" etc even if names are not involved. A little Christian charity and common sense would be greatly appreciated when posting in this thread.
kingsmen
08-29-2012, 08:37 AM
Let me respond to the last 2 to post. First of all, what is said about "no plan of succession before the pastor's health fails" is not true nor is it true that the Bishop, of his own will, tried to continue pastoring. He attempted several times to bring in help but was blocked. So you contradict yourself when you use statements like "a little Christian charity and common sense" when you are blatantly dishonest and clearly dont know what you are talking about. In fact there were a set of by-laws, that were destroyed, that did set forth a plan of succession. And in fact, the reason people keep posting is because things still keep happening.
I see that the ones that are complaining so much about the thread and what is said are a) not involved in this situation so they have nothing at stake b) have derrogatory signature/tag lines on their posts toward Apostolics. This forum is called Apostolic Friends Forum not Pentecostal Friends Forum... there is a difference you know.
This is not gossip, slander or name calling it is simply the events that have happened. And if you are "so embarrassed" then simply don't read it. But this thread needs to be about the truth and the truth needs to be told.
Michael Phelps
08-29-2012, 08:40 AM
Let me respond to the last 2 to post. First of all, what is said about "no plan of succession before the pastor's health fails" is not true nor is it true that the Bishop, of his own will, tried to continue pastoring. He attempted several times to bring in help but was blocked. So you contradict yourself when you use statements like "a little Christian charity and common sense" when you are blatantly dishonest and clearly dont know what you are talking about. In fact there were a set of by-laws, that were destroyed, that did set forth a plan of succession. And in fact, the reason people keep posting is because things still keep happening.
I see that the ones that are complaining so much about the thread and what is said are a) not involved in this situation so they have nothing at stake b) have derrogatory signature/tag lines on their posts toward Apostolics. This forum is called Apostolic Friends Forum not Pentecostal Friends Forum... there is a difference you know.
This is not gossip, slander or name calling it is simply the events that have happened. And if you are "so embarrassed" then simply don't read it. But this thread needs to be about the truth and the truth needs to be told.
So, who's "truth" do we believe? Yours?
kingsmen
08-29-2012, 08:44 AM
At least I know what I am talking about. Can you say the same? And if this thread offends you so greatly then just bug out!
Michael Phelps
08-29-2012, 08:45 AM
At least I know what I am talking about. Can you say the same?
Funny, your buddies on the other side of the fence say the same thing.
So, what good do you think could possibly come from this thread?
And by the way, your attitude sucks.
kingsmen
08-29-2012, 08:48 AM
Funny, your buddies on the other side of the fence say the same thing.
So, what good do you think could possibly come from this thread?
And by the way, your attitude sucks.
Apostolics don't talk that way. But we do tell the truth. Is that what you are offended by? I think you just showed your "true colors". Maybe that is why you are no longer an administrator.
houston
08-29-2012, 08:52 AM
This is the thread that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on my friend. Some people started typing it not knowing what it was, And they'll continue typing it forever just because...
houston
08-29-2012, 08:53 AM
Apostolics don't talk that way. But we do tell the truth. Is that what you are offended by? I think you just showed your "true colors". Maybe that is why you are no longer an administrator.
Well...
Michael Phelps
08-29-2012, 08:55 AM
Apostolics don't talk that way. But we do tell the truth. Is that what you are offended by? I think you just showed your "true colors". Maybe that is why you are no longer an administrator.
I just told the truth. Sorry that it offended you.
You go ahead and propogate your perception of "truth" and do it angrily, and keep hoping and wishing that somehow your venemous spewing here actually does some good in the real world. Keep dreaming.....
kingsmen
08-29-2012, 09:01 AM
Your language offends me. I have not spoken angrily or with venom but I am curious as to why you fight this thread so badly. This thread was created to help people that could not help themselves and to give a voice to those that were wronged. What do you have against that?
Michael Phelps
08-29-2012, 09:35 AM
Your language offends me. I have not spoken angrily or with venom but I am curious as to why you fight this thread so badly. This thread was created to help people that could not help themselves and to give a voice to those that were wronged. What do you have against that?
Ok, let's step back for a minute:
1.) Notice that I said your attitude sucks, I didn't say anything about you personally.
2.) The reason I said that is because you accused another poster of being blatantly dishonest when all they were doing was stating a hypothetical situation, and you are claiming to be the sole speaker of "Truth" on this thread, and anyone else (especially those who disagree) are clueless morons.
3.) You made some comment about this not being a "Pentecostal" friends forum, but an "Apostolic" friends forum, and then you made some snide remarks about our signature lines, inferring that we shouldn't even be allowed to participate.
4.) Then, when I ask a simple question like "Who's truth to believe" you won't respond in a civil tone, but instead you make another snide remark "At least I know what I"m talking about, can you say the same?"
So, yes, your attitude sucks, and I don't apologize for that statement.
Finally, I do care about this thread, because I don't want to see this forum turned into a gossip column, and this thread is the epitome of pure gossip. And you are one of the most vocal proponents.
This thread is not helping anyone, it's an affront to Biblical conflict resolution, and you are a happy participant. Therefore I post on it.
Timmy
08-29-2012, 10:02 AM
So, who's "truth" do we believe? Yours?
Believe the real truth. Use discernment. If you don't have that gift, find someone that does. Simple!
Rapture 1
08-29-2012, 10:46 AM
Let me respond to the last 2 to post. First of all, what is said about "no plan of succession before the pastor's health fails" is not true nor is it true that the Bishop, of his own will, tried to continue pastoring. He attempted several times to bring in help but was blocked. So you contradict yourself when you use statements like "a little Christian charity and common sense" when you are blatantly dishonest and clearly dont know what you are talking about. In fact there were a set of by-laws, that were destroyed, that did set forth a plan of succession. And in fact, the reason people keep posting is because things still keep happening.
I see that the ones that are complaining so much about the thread and what is said are a) not involved in this situation so they have nothing at stake b) have derrogatory signature/tag lines on their posts toward Apostolics. This forum is called Apostolic Friends Forum not Pentecostal Friends Forum... there is a difference you know.
This is not gossip, slander or name calling it is simply the events that have happened. And if you are "so embarrassed" then simply don't read it. But this thread needs to be about the truth and the truth needs to be told.
No disrespect to you, but, the pastor did try twice to "bring in someone", as a matter of fact, it was family, but when that person got here he changed his mind, (because of the daughter). Anyone who is or was on the board at that time can tell you, If he will. The set of by-laws that was mentioned was not signed by anyone, wasn't lost, but as one very good lawyer said, they don't make sense, that if we took it to court, Tn has a set of by-laws that they would go by. As I said, this is no disrespect to what you are saying, just stating a fact from some, who have been there for many, many years.
Rapture 1
08-29-2012, 10:50 AM
Your language offends me. I have not spoken angrily or with venom but I am curious as to why you fight this thread so badly. This thread was created to help people that could not help themselves and to give a voice to those that were wronged. What do you have against that?
I can't understand why "Michael" keeps reading this. Why does it hit home so much? I am beginning to believe it is someone we would know!!!!
Chateau d'If
08-29-2012, 10:57 AM
http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1184038&postcount=15
Ok, let's step back for a minute:
1.) Notice that I said your attitude sucks, I didn't say anything about you personally.
2.) The reason I said that is because you accused another poster of being blatantly dishonest when all they were doing was stating a hypothetical situation, and you are claiming to be the sole speaker of "Truth" on this thread, and anyone else (especially those who disagree) are clueless morons.
3.) You made some comment about this not being a "Pentecostal" friends forum, but an "Apostolic" friends forum, and then you made some snide remarks about our signature lines, inferring that we shouldn't even be allowed to participate.
4.) Then, when I ask a simple question like "Who's truth to believe" you won't respond in a civil tone, but instead you make another snide remark "At least I know what I"m talking about, can you say the same?"
So, yes, your attitude sucks, and I don't apologize for that statement.
Finally, I do care about this thread, because I don't want to see this forum turned into a gossip column, and this thread is the epitome of pure gossip. And you are one of the most vocal proponents.
This thread is not helping anyone, it's an affront to Biblical conflict resolution, and you are a happy participant. Therefore I post on it.
I guess it all depends on who is posting and whether or not we agree with what they post. :nod
Michael Phelps
08-29-2012, 11:06 AM
http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1184038&postcount=15
I guess it all depends on who is posting and whether or not we agree with what they post. :nod
What's the reference?
Chateau d'If
08-29-2012, 11:16 AM
Ok, let's step back for a minute:
1.) Notice that I said your attitude sucks, I didn't say anything about you personally.
2.) The reason I said that is because you accused another poster of being blatantly dishonest when all they were doing was stating a hypothetical situation, and you are claiming to be the sole speaker of "Truth" on this thread, and anyone else (especially those who disagree) are clueless morons.
3.) You made some comment about this not being a "Pentecostal" friends forum, but an "Apostolic" friends forum, and then you made some snide remarks about our signature lines, inferring that we shouldn't even be allowed to participate.
4.) Then, when I ask a simple question like "Who's truth to believe" you won't respond in a civil tone, but instead you make another snide remark "At least I know what I"m talking about, can you say the same?"
So, yes, your attitude sucks, and I don't apologize for that statement.
Finally, I do care about this thread, because I don't want to see this forum turned into a gossip column, and this thread is the epitome of pure gossip. And you are one of the most vocal proponents.
This thread is not helping anyone, it's an affront to Biblical conflict resolution, and you are a happy participant. Therefore I post on it.
What's the reference?
I used the word "screws" and was spanked. You used the word "sucks" and was not.
I feel abused.
Apostolic is a subjective term. Catholics and charismatics can make the same apostolic claim. Apostolic means more than getting turned on by women's hair and what garments they choose to wear to cover areas below the waist
The thread has gone past the point of reconciliation or at least amiacable parting. The reason Michael Phelps and others speak up is to remind the reader this behavior is not acceptable for Christians.
At least I know what I am talking about. Can you say the same? And if this thread offends you so greatly then just bug out!
Michael Phelps
08-29-2012, 12:06 PM
I used the word "screws" and was spanked. You used the word "sucks" and was not.
I feel abused.
Ah, well, there's a reason for that - your word was much worse :happydance
Seriously, if Admin feels I was out of line, I would be happy to change my use of the word to "stinks". But, in my mind, they both mean the same thing!
navygoat1998
08-29-2012, 12:09 PM
Ah, well, there's a reason for that - your word was much worse :happydance
Seriously, if Admin feels I was out of line, I would be happy to change my use of the word to "stinks". But, in my mind, they both mean the same thing!
Is that confirmed in the Greek????:heeheehee
Michael Phelps
08-29-2012, 12:21 PM
Is that confirmed in the Greek????:heeheehee
Strongs Exhaustive......:heeheehee
Cindy
08-29-2012, 12:46 PM
I used the word "screws" and was spanked. You used the word "sucks" and was not.
I feel abused.
Y'all are grown men, clean up your language.
Cindy
08-29-2012, 12:46 PM
Ah, well, there's a reason for that - your word was much worse :happydance
Seriously, if Admin feels I was out of line, I would be happy to change my use of the word to "stinks". But, in my mind, they both mean the same thing!
Clean it up, please. If you can't I will do it.
navygoat1998
08-29-2012, 12:47 PM
Y'all are grown men, clean up your language.
Yes mam :dogkiss
MissBrattified
08-29-2012, 12:48 PM
I used the word "screws" and was spanked. You used the word "sucks" and was not.
I feel abused.
Did you report the post? AFF Admin doesn't read every single post on the forum. If you want a post reviewed, you must report it.
HeavenBound
08-29-2012, 03:44 PM
So, who's "truth" do we believe? Yours?
Don't believe anyone's but your own Michael. I think most of us are just telling what we feel and how we hurt. I don't think anyone is purposely lying. Some just see things in a different way. Why are YOU trying to antagonize the people who are writing these things? Do you have some kind of investment in this? I would say No if you are not from TN. or Miss. Your writings make me think this is personal to you. You ask who's "truth" do we believe, I have a question is your TRUE name Michael Phelps or is your true name one that those involved in this might easily recognize? So, who's "truth" do we believe? Yours?
Let us not love with words or tongue, but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
:amen
Michael Phelps
08-29-2012, 05:23 PM
Don't believe anyone's but your own Michael. I think most of us are just telling what we feel and how we hurt. I don't think anyone is purposely lying. Some just see things in a different way. Why are YOU trying to antagonize the people who are writing these things? Do you have some kind of investment in this? I would say No if you are not from TN. or Miss. Your writings make me think this is personal to you. You ask who's "truth" do we believe, I have a question is your TRUE name Michael Phelps or is your true name one that those involved in this might easily recognize? So, who's "truth" do we believe? Yours?
Let us not love with words or tongue, but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
:amen
Not that I have to justify myself to you, or anyone else, but yes, my real name IS Michael Phelps, and what ticks me off about this thread is that you guys are airing your gripes in a public forum instead of going to each other privately, which is what the Bible teaches. I have no dog in this fight, but I have a huge dog in the fight against airing church problems, most of which are gossip at worst, and perception at best......why do you guys feel compelled to keep kicking the snot out of each other publicly? What do you think you are accomplishing?
Please just answer that one question and I will shut up.
Ok, let's step back for a minute:
1.) Notice that I said your attitude sucks, I didn't say anything about you personally.
2.) The reason I said that is because you accused another poster of being blatantly dishonest when all they were doing was stating a hypothetical situation, and you are claiming to be the sole speaker of "Truth" on this thread, and anyone else (especially those who disagree) are clueless morons.
3.) You made some comment about this not being a "Pentecostal" friends forum, but an "Apostolic" friends forum, and then you made some snide remarks about our signature lines, inferring that we shouldn't even be allowed to participate.
4.) Then, when I ask a simple question like "Who's truth to believe" you won't respond in a civil tone, but instead you make another snide remark "At least I know what I"m talking about, can you say the same?"
So, yes, your attitude sucks, and I don't apologize for that statement.
Finally, I do care about this thread, because I don't want to see this forum turned into a gossip column, and this thread is the epitome of pure gossip. And you are one of the most vocal proponents.
This thread is not helping anyone, it's an affront to Biblical conflict resolution, and you are a happy participant. Therefore I post on it.
Michael,
I think there is enough fighting going on. Please don't join the fray....
Michael Phelps
08-30-2012, 06:34 AM
Michael,
I think there is enough fighting going on. Please don't join the fray....
ILG, I am simply asking the question "What do the contenders feel will be accomplished here?" And the attitudes stink.....they feel the need to air all the dirty laundry on a public forum, I feel the need to challenge them.
ILG, I am simply asking the question "What do the contenders feel will be accomplished here?" And the attitudes stink.....they feel the need to air all the dirty laundry on a public forum, I feel the need to challenge them.
Michael,
Are you sure you are not confusing feeling the need for coffee and donuts?
Michael Phelps
08-30-2012, 08:19 AM
Michael,
Are you sure you are not confusing feeling the need for coffee and donuts?
Well, there is that!:happydance
Michael Phelps
08-30-2012, 09:19 AM
Ok, gang, here's the deal.
I was saddened when I read this thread, because I do know one of the pastor's sons, although it's been a long time since I've had any interaction with him. I remember him to be a true Christian gentleman, and I have no reason to believe anything's changed.
When I first read this thread, I viewed it as an information stream, but the more I read, I realized it had become a cyber pulpit for representatives of both sides to relate their account of what had happened. Ok, still not too bad....
But, then the mudslinging started, replete with judgments against the other side, and some choice names being thrown around.
That's when I got irritated with it. I've pastored a church before, so trust me, I know all about the perceptions of both sides, and how each side is thoroughly convinced THEY are right, and everyone else is wrong.
But, this is not the place to continue this sordid saga.....and, when I questioned the benefit of such dialogue, I was accused of being an imposter, not telling the truth, et al, which I'm ok with that too, I've been called a lot worse.
I just had one SIMPLE question- what do both parties think will be accomplished by this? Are folks going to be converted to the truth? Will this settle the controversy? Will folks be won to the Lord? The answer to all is "NO".
However, since I have wasted way more time on this than I ever should have, I'm bowing out now.......carry on, Hatfields and McCoys! :)
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