View Full Version : A Wrecked Church!
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 10:02 AM
Some of you may be familiar with this situation involving a pastor who recently passed away. He was a strong leader and didn't have a board. All decisions and finances were handled by him and his family. His daughter handled the finances of the church, some of which were invested to buy rental homes for extra income.
The pastor didn't have a successor in place as he held all power until he passed, even though he could hardly speak or walk in his final months. When he became incapacitated, his daughter held full power.
Well...a church vote was held for the daughter's choice to be pastor, and he was voted down. Last week she sent certified letters to all the families that weren't in agreement with her (a majority), and told them they were no longer welcome and were no longer considered members of the church. She essentially kicked them out of the church!
IMO, her strategy is to have another vote with the remaining families that voted with her! How sad to manipulate a good group of people to get what you want!
Anyway, last week she decided to give herself a $200 a week raise as church manager. She didn't need to ask for permission as she has absolute power to do as she pleases.
I hate to see what was once a great influential Apostolic church decline to this type of behavior and power struggle! A truly sad story of how absolute power can absolutely corrupt! This happens even in an Acts 2:38, Oneness, strict standards type church.
The church is no longer tied to any Apostolic organization, so there in nobody to help them get thru this problem. Other pastors that were close friends to the church are afraid to get in the middle of this church fight!
acerrak
07-09-2012, 10:08 AM
simply stop paying ties and offerings and that should brake the camels back
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 10:15 AM
simply stop paying ties and offerings and that should brake the camels back
Deleted.
Sounds like maybe her Daddy told her who he wanted to pastor and she feels like she has to make that happen. Wouldn't surprise me.
Cindy
07-09-2012, 10:26 AM
Wow, how sad.
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 10:30 AM
Sounds like maybe her Daddy told her who he wanted to pastor and she feels like she has to make that happen. Wouldn't surprise me.
Dad didn't believe in woman preachers! :eek:
RandyWayne
07-09-2012, 10:32 AM
Perhaps a lesson could be learned here concerning a pastor having ALL power and the eventual issues it creates, even if the current person doesn't abuse it.
Sister Alvear
07-09-2012, 10:33 AM
sad but wished it was not on the web...I deeply loved the family...is there not anything other family members can do?
Dad didn't believe in woman preachers! :eek:
What I mean is, maybe he told her WHO he wanted to pastor, as in the man she is trying to get in.
endtimer
07-09-2012, 10:50 AM
sad but wished it was not on the web...I deeply loved the family...is there not anything other family members can do?
I agree whole heartedly. This is a subject for much prayer not internet fodder.
AreYouReady?
07-09-2012, 11:09 AM
I hate to say this, but situations like this need to be on the web and to be out in the open as a warning to all of God's people that things like this can and do happen to even the "best" of churches. The pastor knew that he was getting old and he should have gone before the church people to see what actions they wanted to take concerning the five-fold ministry.
I am both shocked and not at the same time because I have long recognized even the churches that appear to be strong may have a control issue. It was not the pastor's right to decide, along with his daughter who should succeed him. This is the makings of a "kingdom" and not the body of Christ.
I've said not long ago that many Oneness churches do not have the five-fold ministry operating in them. This appears to be one of them when there are no spiritual checks and balances within the body.
What is portrayed here is a true Jezebel spirit. She appears to be operating in the flesh on what she thinks may be her daddy's wishes instead of humbling herself down and asking God what to do.
If the monies come from the congregants tithe and offerings, then it is not hers to decide anything.
The people who were kicked out have some choices. They can go to court, which is not a biblical solution imo. The other pastors who were close and are afraid to get in the middle of the church fight are shirking their duties as men of God since it IS biblical for the saints to settle their own differences out of secular court.
The people who were kicked out should gather together in homes or a rented building and truly pray about their next move. This cannot be from God, but God can fix this problem if the people are given over to seeking His will through prayer.
The absolute worse thing that can happen for her is for the people to pray to God and let her fall into the hands of God. She should be more fearful of this than of any other remedy.
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 11:15 AM
sad but wished it was not on the web...I deeply loved the family...is there not anything other family members can do?
Other members of the family are embarrassed of the situation (I'm told) and are powerless to do anything or don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole!
The people being kicked out of the church have faithfully attended the church for many years even when the pastor was in bad health. My intention was to give them a voice and let the truth be told.
acerrak
07-09-2012, 11:38 AM
Other members of the family are embarrassed of the situation (I'm told) and are powerless to do anything or don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole!
The people being kicked out of the church have faithfully attended the church for many years even when the pastor was in bad health. My intention was to give them a voice and let the truth be told.
the power of the church is in the church not in some one who declares it.
I attend a non denominational church. the pastor is also the owner, however with out tithes and offerings the church would crumble. But he is not abusive in power cause he opens his Pullpit. While the deed may remain in his family its up to the church to move on after Him and find the Leader God wants. not what the owner dictates.
Cause what will happen will be a split and the building will be lost. The building needs the body of believers. It doesnt need some one trying to step up to be a dictator. That is why there needs to be a set of elders in place, but the former pastor failed at this and this is now the result. a church divided.
what needs to happen is first have the body elect godly men to step up and start running this church until God sends them some one into the role of pastor.
Just my thoughts
AreYouReady?
07-09-2012, 12:10 PM
the power of the church is in the church not in some one who declares it.
I attend a non denominational church. the pastor is also the owner, however with out tithes and offerings the church would crumble. But he is not abusive in power cause he opens his Pullpit. While the deed may remain in his family its up to the church to move on after Him and find the Leader God wants. not what the owner dictates.
Cause what will happen will be a split and the building will be lost. The building needs the body of believers. It doesnt need some one trying to step up to be a dictator. That is why there needs to be a set of elders in place, but the former pastor failed at this and this is now the result. a church divided.
what needs to happen is first have the body elect godly men to step up and start running this church until God sends them some one into the role of pastor.
Just my thoughts
Acerrak, you do not know just how much I agree with your post!
We are living in a time when people think more of property and material belongings. This is a dangerous thought process because all of this stuff is going to burn up or be stolen.
What is important is the unity of God's people in a local assembly. She simply will not stand. It is not in God's order of the church for anybody to act this way.
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 12:15 PM
the power of the church is in the church not in some one who declares it.
I attend a non denominational church. the pastor is also the owner, however with out tithes and offerings the church would crumble. But he is not abusive in power cause he opens his Pullpit. While the deed may remain in his family its up to the church to move on after Him and find the Leader God wants. not what the owner dictates.
Cause what will happen will be a split and the building will be lost. The building needs the body of believers. It doesnt need some one trying to step up to be a dictator. That is why there needs to be a set of elders in place, but the former pastor failed at this and this is now the result. a church divided.
what needs to happen is first have the body elect godly men to step up and start running this church until God sends them some one into the role of pastor.
Just my thoughts
It's a sad situation, and I don't want to put myself in the middle! Good and faithful saints are being bullied! Very sad!
It's a sad situation, and I don't want to put myself in the middle! Good and faithful saints are being bullied! Very sad!
"good and faithful"???? They are witches!!!! They have rebelled against the daughter's choice of pastor. The daughter's power was at the direction of her father. Therefore those not toeing the line and voting for the daughter's choice are rebellious and we all know that the bible says that rebellion "is as the sin of witchcraft". Witches I say!!!
(isn't good old time Pentecostal logic great. No end to the ways you can twist things!!!)
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 12:24 PM
"good and faithful"???? They are witches!!!! They have rebelled against the daughter's choice of pastor. The daughter's power was at the direction of her father. Therefore those not toeing the line and voting for the daughter's choice are rebellious and we all know that the bible says that rebellion "is as the sin of witchcraft". Witches I say!!!
(isn't good old time Pentecostal logic great. No end to the ways you can twist things!!!)
:thumbsup
Esaias
07-09-2012, 12:25 PM
A church got deleted?
Oh the humanity!!!!
:icecream
acerrak
07-09-2012, 12:35 PM
It's a sad situation, and I don't want to put myself in the middle! Good and faithful saints are being bullied! Very sad!
i agree there shoudnt be any bullying. My point is if you cut off what powers the bully, which in this case is money, the bullying will stop.
the church doesnt need her directions. It needs to get biblical. Its very sad.
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 01:51 PM
i agree there shoudnt be any bullying. My point is if you cut off what powers the bully, which in this case is money, the bullying will stop.
the church doesnt need her directions. It needs to get biblical. Its very sad.
A good deal of the income for the church comes from property rentals which the church owns IN THE FORMER PASTOR'S NAME! If the church is dissolved, she can inherit the property and the rental income.
seguidordejesus
07-09-2012, 01:58 PM
A good deal of the income for the church comes from property rentals which the church owns IN THE FORMER PASTOR'S NAME! If the church is dissolved, she can inherit the property and the rental income.
Well that's just a mess right there! How is that even legal?? Who does the taxes for these people? lol
hometown guy
07-09-2012, 02:01 PM
"good and faithful"???? They are witches!!!! They have rebelled against the daughter's choice of pastor. The daughter's power was at the direction of her father. Therefore those not toeing the line and voting for the daughter's choice are rebellious and we all know that the bible says that rebellion "is as the sin of witchcraft". Witches I say!!!
(isn't good old time Pentecostal logic great. No end to the ways you can twist things!!!)
Haha.. Your still wrong... Cause true Pentecostals don't believe in women with authority :icecream
rgcraig
07-09-2012, 02:01 PM
A good deal of the income for the church comes from property rentals which the church owns IN THE FORMER PASTOR'S NAME! If the church is dissolved, she can inherit the property and the rental income.
Wow! So, she has a lot to gain if everyone gets mad and the church is dissolved. Interesting!
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 02:18 PM
Well that's just a mess right there! How is that even legal?? Who does the taxes for these people? lol
Who do you think does the taxes? :girlytantrum
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 02:20 PM
Wow! So, she has a lot to gain if everyone gets mad and the church is dissolved. Interesting!
It certainly appears that way! IMO, she's fighting for what she considers her rightful inheritance. If she has to destroy a church in the process....so be it!
Sister Alvear
07-09-2012, 02:21 PM
This pastor was a wonderful man and I am so sorry this is happening...I have a good friend that pastor's in Memphis.
Churches should be set up in a way that things will go on AFTER the pastor passes...It has been many years since I have been to Grey Road however I am deeply sorry...
This pastor and his wife were wonderful people....wish someone could have carried on...we all need to remember we are human and we will all pass off the scene...Moses needs Joshua...pass the mantel while you can don't wait until it is too late....
Admin
07-09-2012, 02:33 PM
ATTENTION ALL POSTERS ON THIS THREAD:
The person starting this thread has deleted the original post starting it that outlined the situation and included names and location.
Admin has gone through this thead and edited responses that included any of these names or locations to remove them. All posts were left intact other than removing these references to names and location.
Those of you who saw the original post before it was deleted please refrain from referring to the church, pastor, or persons involved by name. If you are aware of the situation and are able to deduce specifics, please refrain from posting them on the forum. A sanitized version of the original post has now been restored to allow clarity in the discussion.
Michael Phelps
07-09-2012, 02:35 PM
ATTENTION ALL POSTERS ON THIS THREAD:
The person starting this thread has deleted the original post starting it that outlined the situation and included names and location.
Admin has gone through this thead and edited responses that included any of these names or locations to remove them. All posts were left intact other than removing these references to names and location.
Those of you who saw the original post before it was deleted please refrain from referring to the church, pastor, or persons involved by name. A sanitized version of the original post has now been restored to allow clarity in the discussion.
What about those of us who came in late and have no idea what the issue even is?? :heeheehee
Sister Alvear
07-09-2012, 02:35 PM
Praying for all involved.
AreYouReady?
07-09-2012, 02:39 PM
It certainly appears that way! IMO, she's fighting for what she considers her rightful inheritance. If she has to destroy a church in the process....so be it!
StillStanding, I know that you already know this, but never underestimate the power of prayer.
She does not want to fall into the hands of the Living God. It won't be pretty for her.
If he was one of those pastors who believe the entire tithe was his to keep and he bought rental homes in his name with it, then there is probably very little the people can do about it legally, except to get out of there. Maybe the eviction is a God-given blessing? They can gather together for fasting and prayer and have a new body of believers spring up. It is better that this happens than to stay in that situation. God can bring a five-fold ministry to that group.
But this is what happens when there is an independent church with a pastor who runs things his way without oversight from a board or five-fold ministry.
This is the kind of thing that happens when district boards and churches ALLOW pastors to not run churches according to the law.
Esaias
07-09-2012, 03:19 PM
What about those of us who came in late and have no idea what the issue even is?? :heeheehee
Let me help you out, bro...
Apparently, a church got deleted. As a result, some deleted deleted redacted deleted redacted deleted, and then deleted redacted deleted for national security purposes deleted redacted BUT THEN deleted deleted deleted deleted redacted.
But now deleted deleted redacted deleted TOP SECRET!! deleted over in deleted by redacted.
Redacted deleted deleted redacted redacted shredded deleted redacted in deleted by redacted but deleted deleted redacted.
Got that?
Pass it on.
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 03:34 PM
To fill some of you in. There's a strict traditional Apostolic Oneness church that was founded and pastored for several years (50?) who had authoritarian type control. He didn't have a board and ran everything himself, including all of the finances. When he got older, he had his daughter do all of the finances, but he remained in total control of the church until his death a few weeks ago.
When he became incapacitated, his daughter was in full control doing whatever he wished.
When he died, it left a vacuum of power which the daughter gladly took to herself! She was being paid very well for her services to the church, and she politicked for a local preacher to be pastor who had agreed that she could keep her position. She is divorced and the local preacher is single, so there are rumors that they are romantically involved. Just a rumor.
Last week, the daughter gave herself a raise of $200 per week as there is nobody in power to oppose. If she keeps her position of office manager, she would remain at the "current" salary of $50,000. Keep in mind that the church runs less than 100 people!
Well, last week she sent out certified letters to many of the families that voted against her choice as pastor, telling them that they are no longer members of the church and are not invited back! The are saints that have been loyal members for many years!
It appears that she is doing "scorched earth" to the church to keep her position. You see, all of the church property is in the former pastor's name, since he never had a church board for legal matters. If the church is dissolved, she might claim the church property as an inheritance.
Esaias
07-09-2012, 03:46 PM
To fill some of you in. There's a strict traditional Apostolic Oneness church that was founded and pastored for several years (50?) who had authoritarian type control. He didn't have a board and ran everything himself, including all of the finances. When he got older, he had his daughter do all of the finances, but he remained in total control of the church until his death a few weeks ago.
When he became incapacitated, his daughter was in full control doing whatever he wished.
When he died, it left a vacuum of power which the daughter gladly took to herself! She was being paid very well for her services to the church, and she politicked for a local preacher to be pastor who had agreed that she could keep her position. She is divorced and the local preacher is single, so there are rumors that they are romantically involved. Just a rumor.
Last week, the daughter gave herself a raise of $200 per week as there is nobody in power to oppose. If she keeps her position of office manager, she would remain at the "current" salary of $50,000. Keep in mind that the church runs less than 100 people!
Well, last week she sent out certified letters to many of the families that voted against her choice as pastor, telling them that they are no longer members of the church and are not invited back! The are saints that have been loyal members for many years!
It appears that she is doing "scorched earth" to the church to keep her position. You see, all of the church property is in the former pastor's name, since he never had a church board for legal matters. If the church is dissolved, she might claim the church property as an inheritance.
Do you play a keyboard out on the west coast?
:foottap
rgcraig
07-09-2012, 03:51 PM
Do you play a keyboard out on the west coast?
:foottap
Lol - - no, he's not. That person would have made the title something like this:
********NEWS FLASH......A WRECKED CHURCH************
Esaias
07-09-2012, 03:56 PM
Lol - - no, he's not. That person would have made the title something like this:
********NEWS FLASH......A WRECKED CHURCH************
I was just hoping he got hooked on phonics...
:happydance
Cindy
07-09-2012, 03:57 PM
Good grief.
Esaias
07-09-2012, 03:58 PM
Good grief.
What??? I'm just saying that IF it was who i SUSPECTED it might be, his spelling/typing had improved dramatically! I was going to congratulate him!!
:bigbaby
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 03:59 PM
Do you play a keyboard out on the west coast?
:foottap
:lol:lol:ursofunny:ursofunny
rgcraig
07-09-2012, 04:00 PM
What??? I'm just saying that IF it was who i SUSPECTED it might be, his spelling/typing had improved dramatically! I was going to congratulate him!!
:bigbaby
I think she was responding to the Steinman post.
It's not always about you.
Cindy
07-09-2012, 04:00 PM
What??? I'm just saying that IF it was who i SUSPECTED it might be, his spelling/typing had improved dramatically! I was going to congratulate him!!
:bigbaby
Not at you, about the whole situation.
Esaias
07-09-2012, 04:04 PM
I gotta remember that.
'It's not always about me. It's not always about me. It's not always about me.'
Ahh... serenity!
:bigbaby
What about those of us who came in late and have no idea what the issue even is?? :heeheehee
Mr. Phelps,
Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to figure out this situation.
The best I can tell this thread is about a church that is in a motor home and they had a wreck.:happydance
Steve Epley
07-09-2012, 04:59 PM
Such a sad situation for such a wonderful church in it's time. To help some understand years ago it was very hard for struggling churches to borrow money so many preachers would borrow the money to do whatever but generally whenever the church would grow and get on it's feet they would make it more business like. However some men of that era which motives and hearts were pure as gold just didn't keep up to date and then a horrid situation like this happens. Every church needs trustees to keep the properties in trust. I am very sadden over this. We had no fellowship for years since they moved in a more liberal circle but I do feel for the saints who have been faithful and given their lives to this church. Outside of going to law I don't know what can be done and that may even be futile?
KeptByTheWord
07-09-2012, 05:14 PM
Such a sad situation for such a wonderful church in it's time. To help some understand years ago it was very hard for struggling churches to borrow money so many preachers would borrow the money to do whatever but generally whenever the church would grow and get on it's feet they would make it more business like. However some men of that era which motives and hearts were pure as gold just didn't keep up to date and then a horrid situation like this happens. Every church needs trustees to keep the properties in trust. I am very sadden over this. We had no fellowship for years since they moved in a more liberal circle but I do feel for the saints who have been faithful and given their lives to this church. Outside of going to law I don't know what can be done and that may even be futile?
Amen!
This pastor and family were some of the sweetest people, and we loved them dearly. It saddens us also to hear of this. We can only pray that something good will come out of this. Sometimes things have to come to a head, in order to resolve underlying issues. Will continue to hold these people up before the Lord.
MissBrattified
07-09-2012, 05:34 PM
Do you play a keyboard out on the west coast?
:foottap
*insert smirking emoticon here*
Such a sad situation for such a wonderful church in it's time. To help some understand years ago it was very hard for struggling churches to borrow money so many preachers would borrow the money to do whatever but generally whenever the church would grow and get on it's feet they would make it more business like. However some men of that era which motives and hearts were pure as gold just didn't keep up to date and then a horrid situation like this happens. Every church needs trustees to keep the properties in trust. I am very sadden over this. We had no fellowship for years since they moved in a more liberal circle but I do feel for the saints who have been faithful and given their lives to this church. Outside of going to law I don't know what can be done and that may even be futile?
If everything is in the deceased pastor's name then I believe it would be futile to legally challenge the situation. Not to mention the attorney fees would most likely be something a church of less than a 100 people could afford. Looks like the majority of the income of the church is in the rental properties that the daughter controls.
Hopefully this story will be a warning to any pastors or saints who have a similar situation and have not addressed it.
Your analysis of how this kind of situation could have evolved is spot on. Similar to the stories of pastors who take 100% of the tithe because many years ago 100% of the tithe was still little or nothing. However as some churches grew into hundreds or thousands of members some pastors continued to receive 100% of the tithe personally then paid the church expenses out of that and kept the difference. The pastor of a medium sized church could pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. A 100% tithe to the pastor personally has paid for many an investment property!
MissBrattified
07-09-2012, 05:49 PM
Such a sad situation for such a wonderful church in it's time. To help some understand years ago it was very hard for struggling churches to borrow money so many preachers would borrow the money to do whatever but generally whenever the church would grow and get on it's feet they would make it more business like. However some men of that era which motives and hearts were pure as gold just didn't keep up to date and then a horrid situation like this happens. Every church needs trustees to keep the properties in trust. I am very sadden over this. We had no fellowship for years since they moved in a more liberal circle but I do feel for the saints who have been faithful and given their lives to this church. Outside of going to law I don't know what can be done and that may even be futile?
I agree with your assessment as well. I know my Dad had full control over his church's finances, but over the years he took out several loans to support the church and would routinely dump tithes money back into the church account to pay bills. I also know that he often paid evangelists out of his own pocket. I think what would have worried him most about having a board would have been that they wouldn't have been generous enough with visiting preachers or with people in the community who needed handouts.
Esaias
07-09-2012, 05:49 PM
Outside of going to law I don't know what can be done and that may even be futile?
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1cor. 6:1
MissBrattified
07-09-2012, 05:54 PM
StillStanding, check your PM's please! :)
AreYouReady?
07-09-2012, 05:56 PM
Good grief.
:)
Such a sad situation for such a wonderful church in it's time. To help some understand years ago it was very hard for struggling churches to borrow money so many preachers would borrow the money to do whatever but generally whenever the church would grow and get on it's feet they would make it more business like. However some men of that era which motives and hearts were pure as gold just didn't keep up to date and then a horrid situation like this happens. Every church needs trustees to keep the properties in trust. I am very sadden over this. We had no fellowship for years since they moved in a more liberal circle but I do feel for the saints who have been faithful and given their lives to this church. Outside of going to law I don't know what can be done and that may even be futile?
SE,
Could you please elaborate a bit on what you are saying here? You see, in the situation we were in, there were things that did not look good at all. When we took the church there were no records and a number of things that had been done that we were taught strictly against. We were taught to do everything by the law and by the books.
We took the issue to the district board. They swept everything under the rug which made our situation HORRIBLE. They left us to rot and sort everything out which made things so, so much worse. We were WILLING to listen to them and do what they wanted but they gave us NO direction. We were left to flounder. This confused the whole church and because my husband put everything in order according to law, they accused us of changing everything and even of stealing money. The district did NOTHING, even when my husband showed up with a packet of information that we had worked three hours to compile, he did not even look at it.
For the first time, after reading your post about things being different in that era and how things were done, it occurred to me that MAYBE the district assumed everyone just went with the flow on these things as they tried (or DIDN'T, in this case, try to determine whether there was any wrongdoing.....it was assumed automatically by the board that there was not any wrongdoing based ONLY on the reputation of the previous pastor when we had records to the contrary). This helps me to MAYBE, JUST MAYBE understand a little bit the actions of the board who should have talked to us as we were so willing to listen and heed their direction.
People in the church sued my husband and the church when the previous pastor told them they "had no choice" but to sue us because we were supposedly destroying the church. After dragging us through two lawsuits and destroying our lives, they finally dropped it because they had absolutely no evidence that we had done anything wrong whatsoever.
Take heed anyone who throws accusations of any kind around, it gets scary. Take heed before you say the words lawsuit.
AreYouReady?
07-09-2012, 06:05 PM
SE,
Could you please elaborate a bit on what you are saying here? You see, in the situation we were in, there were things that did not look good at all. When we took the church there were no records and a number of things that had been done that we were taught strictly against. We were taught to do everything by the law and by the books.
We took the issue to the district board. They swept everything under the rug which made our situation HORRIBLE. They left us to rot and sort everything out which made things so, so much worse. We were WILLING to listen to them and do what they wanted but they gave us NO direction. We were left to flounder. This confused the whole church and because my husband put everything in order according to law, they accused us of changing everything and even of stealing money. The district did NOTHING, even when my husband showed up with a packet of information that we had worked three hours to compile, he did not even look at it.
For the first time, after reading your post about things being different in that era and how things were done, it occurred to me that MAYBE the district assumed everyone just went with the flow on these things as they tried (or DIDN'T, in this case, try to determine whether there was any wrongdoing.....it was assumed automatically by the board that there was not any wrongdoing based ONLY on the reputation of the previous pastor when we had records to the contrary). This helps me to MAYBE, JUST MAYBE understand a little bit the actions of the board who should have talked to us as we were so willing to listen and heed their direction.
People in the church sued my husband and the church when the previous pastor told them they "had no choice" but to sue us because we were supposedly destroying the church. After dragging us through two lawsuits and destroying our lives, they finally dropped it because they had absolutely no evidence that we had done anything wrong whatsoever.
Take heed anyone who throws accusations of any kind around, it gets scary. Take heed before you say the words lawsuit.
ILG, from what I am reading here, it sounds like the District Board dropped the ball. If they did not even look at the compilation your husband did, then they can (dis)honestly say that they have not seen anything...right?
ILG, from what I am reading here, it sounds like the District Board dropped the ball. If they did not even look at the compilation your husband did, then they can (dis)honestly say that they have not seen anything...right?
It was really the district superintendent and the presbyter. The board never even had a chance to see anything. The district superintendent kept the board from seeing the compilation that my husband took off of work and drove three hours to show them. He told my husband outside the door that "we aren't going to look at that today".
At a later meeting the district superintendent and presbyter took a cursory glance at it before ripping into my husband about some decisions he made. Decisions which were based on decisions the district superintendent had made and didn't follow through on.
At any rate, I would really like to hear from Steve Epley, who would know more about how things were done in the older days, how these things were done. It doesn't excuse what the district superintendent and presbyster did but it helps me understand more why they would not just jump into the situation like we thought they would. Even so, we expected they may not jump in but we at least expected some sort of explanation or discussion on what they might do. At the time, it looked to me like a cover up but that hopefully was not their intent. Of course, I will probably never know.
Cindy
07-09-2012, 06:50 PM
ILG, do you think outside help should have been brought in? Like an accountant to go over the books?
ILG, do you think outside help should have been brought in? Like an accountant to go over the books?
Hmm...I guess at the time, we expected the district board would have been the appropriate people to look things over so we did not call in an accountant. Maybe that would have been a good idea.
What it ended up being was lawyers looking it over.
When I hear stories like this "wrecked church", I just have no idea what to think either pro or con.
AreYouReady?
07-09-2012, 07:57 PM
I know what to think. I know that I do not ever want to be caught in church split situations like this ever again. Been there and done that before.
Most church splits are over mammon and power.
The Matt
07-09-2012, 08:24 PM
Some of you may be familiar with this situation involving a pastor who recently passed away. He was a strong leader and didn't have a board. All decisions and finances were handled by him and his family. His daughter handled the finances of the church, some of which were invested to buy rental homes for extra income.
The pastor didn't have a successor in place as he held all power until he passed, even though he could hardly speak or walk in his final months. When he became incapacitated, his daughter held full power.
Well...a church vote was held for the daughter's choice to be pastor, and he was voted down. Last week she sent certified letters to all the families that weren't in agreement with her (a majority), and told them they were no longer welcome and were no longer considered members of the church. She essentially kicked them out of the church!
IMO, her strategy is to have another vote with the remaining families that voted with her! How sad to manipulate a good group of people to get what you want!
Anyway, last week she decided to give herself a $200 a week raise as church manager. She didn't need to ask for permission as she has absolute power to do as she pleases.
I hate to see what was once a great influential Apostolic church decline to this type of behavior and power struggle! A truly sad story of how absolute power can absolutely corrupt! This happens even in an Acts 2:38, Oneness, strict standards type church.
The church is no longer tied to any Apostolic organization, so there in nobody to help them get thru this problem. Other pastors that were close friends to the church are afraid to get in the middle of this church fight!
This is exactly why a church needs to have a system where the church goers play a part in it, with a system of checks and balances. The only thing you can do about that situation is pray and fast about it. God can intervene in hopeless situations. I will pray that God puts His perfect will on that church, and it's people.
This is exactly why a church needs to have a system where the church goers play a part in it, with a system of checks and balances. The only thing you can do about that situation is pray and fast about it. God can intervene in hopeless situations. I will pray that God puts His perfect will on that church, and it's people.
In the old days (when I was young) this concept was considered "the board running the church" and looked down on.
Apparently to counter the possibility of a carnal board trying to control a pastor preachers decided the solution was a one man show with a pastor answering to no one. In many instances churches have had token boards made up of men who are there to rubber stamp whatever decisions the pastor makes. No real dissent allowed.
Thankfully I think more and more churches realize there has to be checks and balances when it comes to finances and other areas so they do have pastors answerable to godly men when it comes to that. It protects both the pastor and the church.
"good and faithful"???? They are witches!!!! They have rebelled against the daughter's choice of pastor. The daughter's power was at the direction of her father. Therefore those not toeing the line and voting for the daughter's choice are rebellious and we all know that the bible says that rebellion "is as the sin of witchcraft". Witches I say!!!
(isn't good old time Pentecostal logic great. No end to the ways you can twist things!!!)
Oh that Apostolic people could just know what witches know!!!
I know what to think. I know that I do not ever want to be caught in church split situations like this ever again. Been there and done that before.
Most church splits are over mammon and power.
Yeah, I know what you mean there! I was referring to who is at fault for what and all that. I guess I wonder what the facts really are. Not that I really want to know or care, but things can get very convoluted sometimes.
AreYouReady?
07-09-2012, 09:24 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean there! I was referring to who is at fault for what and all that. I guess I wonder what the facts really are. Not that I really want to know or care, but things can get very convoluted sometimes.
Yes, I knew what you mean. I was just adding my 0.02 :D.
I don't think Christ wants his bride to be torn apart limb by limb. I don't believe He expects us to live in those circumstances. In all cases of church splits, the people are forced to take sides. People who were once friends become enemies if they are not on the same side. This sort of stuff complicates one's walk. I shy away from such stuff. Maybe it is easier to live for God being an Island than to participate in tribal wars on an Island? :D
StillStanding
07-09-2012, 09:41 PM
Update: I found out tonight that not ALL who opposed the local preacher to be pastor were given letters. They kicked out just enough people to change the balance of power!
Steve Epley
07-09-2012, 09:45 PM
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1cor. 6:1
I agree I was just stating a fact.
acerrak
07-10-2012, 05:51 AM
Update: I found out tonight that not ALL who opposed the local preacher to be pastor were given letters. They kicked out just enough people to change the balance of power!
we hope that those that was kicked out will find a church where God is and be blessed for it.
Esther
07-10-2012, 08:16 AM
I would think that if the church can proved the money came from church funds to make the purchases they could stop the "inheritance " of church property. Also, if there is a history of the income going into the church treasury would give even more credence for the church ownership.
On a more serious note seems to me from the one side we have heard from indicates some do not fear God. A much more troubling factor as this affects souls.
Also, just an observation if the daughter is this controlling perhaps explains why she is divorced, but could be other reasons as well.
Yes, I knew what you mean. I was just adding my 0.02 :D.
I don't think Christ wants his bride to be torn apart limb by limb. I don't believe He expects us to live in those circumstances. In all cases of church splits, the people are forced to take sides. People who were once friends become enemies if they are not on the same side. This sort of stuff complicates one's walk. I shy away from such stuff. Maybe it is easier to live for God being an Island than to participate in tribal wars on an Island? :D
I am sure it is. I wish I could have walked away but the only way for me to have done that was to leave my husband!
The response I have gotten from SE so far is the same response we got from the district superintendent and presbyter. It feels hauntingly familiar while I have stuck my neck out here trying to understand. Oh well.
Update: I found out tonight that not ALL who opposed the local preacher to be pastor were given letters. They kicked out just enough people to change the balance of power!
I guess I wonder if that is all there is to it. If so, shame on those people. If not, there are a lot of things that happen behind the scenes that people are not privy to.
MissBrattified
07-10-2012, 08:41 AM
Okay, here's my take:
First of all, it sounds like the daughter is trying to be fiercely loyal to her Dad's wishes. Right, wrong or indifferent, it sounds like she's using whatever power that she has to make sure what HE wants is what takes place--even if she has to kick objectors to the curb to get it done.
Secondly, there's always more than one side to a story, and respectfully, we only have one side represented on this thread.
I've just been imagining how I might act in the same circumstance. If I had power and knew my Dad had certain wishes and people in the church were trying to overturn his wishes with their vote (at least, in my perspective) I can't say that I might not react badly. Granted, it's the wrong reaction for several reasons, but I can empathize. People start being stubborn for the sake of it and it becomes a power struggle rather than negotiating what is best for the church as a whole.
On a final note, I think the personal life of the daughter is irrelevant to this conversation and everything that has been alluded to in that regard has been supposition and "rumor." It's best to leave that kind of stuff out of the equation. Stick to the facts.
Okay, here's my take:
First of all, it sounds like the daughter is trying to be fiercely loyal to her Dad's wishes. Right, wrong or indifferent, it sounds like she's using whatever power that she has to make sure what HE wants is what takes place--even if she has to kick objectors to the curb to get it done.
Secondly, there's always more than one side to a story, and respectfully, we only have one side represented on this thread.
I've just been imagining how I might act in the same circumstance. If I had power and knew my Dad had certain wishes and people in the church were trying to overturn his wishes with their vote (at least, in my perspective) I can't say that I might not react badly. Granted, it's the wrong reaction for several reasons, but I can empathize. People start being stubborn for the sake of it and it becomes a power struggle rather than negotiating what is best for the church as a whole.
On a final note, I think the personal life of the daughter is irrelevant to this conversation and everything that has been alluded to in that regard has been supposition and "rumor." It's best to leave that kind of stuff out of the equation. Stick to the facts.
As usual, Miss B strikes the correct balance!
I also definitely agree her marital status needs to be left out of the equation.
AreYouReady?
07-10-2012, 09:08 AM
If the church is a 501 C 3 tax exempt entity, she cannot do what she is doing. She will be in trouble with the IRS for not following the outline they established.
There are laws that say to be tax exempt, you must have a board, secretary etc because you are considered to be a corporation. Offices in the church system are to be elected. There are to be "business meetings".
If the church is NOT a 501 C 3 tax exempt entity, then they might be without legal remedy. In this case the people will just learn a lesson about placing trust in man.
I am not an advocate of transforming a church into a corporation. We are supposed to be separate from the world. But it is a sad state of affairs if the church cannot honestly deal with the money that the people contribute to it.
If the church is a 501 C 3 tax exempt entity, she cannot do what she is doing. She will be in trouble with the IRS for not following the outline they established.
There are laws that say to be tax exempt, you must have a board, secretary etc because you are considered to be a corporation. Offices in the church system are to be elected. There are to be "business meetings".
If the church is NOT a 501 C 3 tax exempt entity, then they might be without legal remedy. In this case the people will just learn a lesson about placing trust in man.
I am not an advocate of transforming a church into a corporation. We are supposed to be separate from the world. But it is a sad state of affairs if the church cannot honestly deal with the money that the people contribute to it.
See, this is interesting. I never realized that there were differences of opinion on this. What we were taught, is that you set up things according to law. When we got to the church we went to, it was not a legal corporation but only because the previous pastor had not done the paperwork. It had been voted in to be a corporation previous to that. There were no roster rolls of who was a member, nothing set up that could be solidly stated what was legitimate and what was not. We were aghast. The district superintendent shrugged and didn't care. (There had been a church split at this church two years before we got there over finances.) But the District Sup never really explained what he was thinking.
My husband set everything up legally, made legal records with income and outgo, set up the corporation and by-laws correctly, voted in a board, made a legal voting roster etc. However, some people in the church viewed this as anathema, particularly when my husband disallowed ONE member (for his behavior until we could get things figured out as to what was going on in the church with the finances). The dis-allowance of this one member became a backlash of people saying my husband was making a power grab and they eventually sued. They told everyone my husband was picking and choosing members and not allowing people (plural) to be members. There was, in truth, only one he temporarily disallowed because he lied about something.
I never knew that it was accepted in some circles to be against putting together a corporation and having boards etc. This might actually explain why the district superintendent did not do much. But no one ever explained this to us. Wow, lo these many years later, I am seeing some things maybe a bit differently. They still handled it horribly. The fact that they could not account for thousands of dollars the church spent, and that the previous pastor was paying for his harley davidson with the "expense account" etc, the fact the church property had a loan for 14% interest with an individual because they could not obtain a bank loan etc. and the fact there had been a church split over finances and that the previous pastor had told members not to speak to one another meant they should have looked at it rather than ignored us and let us be slaughtered.
Anyhoo....
AreYouReady?
07-10-2012, 09:41 AM
ILG, please read my PM.
AreYouReady?
07-10-2012, 09:44 AM
Even if a church is not a 501 c 3 tax-exempt corporation, it is still best for the church itself to have board members and an account of all monies vs a one man show.
It saves the people from experiencing a lot of grief later and it is an attempt to unify the people knowing everything is on the up and up.
Perhaps the problem there is that they voted it in, but they changed their mind and did not really want to become corporate? Somebody should have told ya'll and then proceedings could have taken place to hold another vote. This is on them and their lack of communication.
rgcraig
07-10-2012, 09:51 AM
Okay, here's my take:
First of all, it sounds like the daughter is trying to be fiercely loyal to her Dad's wishes. Right, wrong or indifferent, it sounds like she's using whatever power that she has to make sure what HE wants is what takes place--even if she has to kick objectors to the curb to get it done.
Secondly, there's always more than one side to a story, and respectfully, we only have one side represented on this thread.
I've just been imagining how I might act in the same circumstance. If I had power and knew my Dad had certain wishes and people in the church were trying to overturn his wishes with their vote (at least, in my perspective) I can't say that I might not react badly. Granted, it's the wrong reaction for several reasons, but I can empathize. People start being stubborn for the sake of it and it becomes a power struggle rather than negotiating what is best for the church as a whole.
On a final note, I think the personal life of the daughter is irrelevant to this conversation and everything that has been alluded to in that regard has been supposition and "rumor." It's best to leave that kind of stuff out of the equation. Stick to the facts.
One fact - the vote for pastor was for the daughter's choice.
Falla39
07-10-2012, 09:58 AM
Jesus said in Matt.15:13 that every plant that his Father hath not plant would be uprooted. I believe very "plant", whether it be an individual, church, organization, nation, etc., will in time, be tried/tested, as if by fire.
Could it be that IF those involved would pray and fast and allow the LORD to fight their battle, it might turn out differently. After all, IF the people of GOD paid for the church, it should belong to GOD. GOD CAN take care of that which belongs to HIM!!
HE IS the WONDERFUL COUNCELLOR, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, AND THE PRINCE OF PEACE!!!
Seems that most cannot trust these kind of things into the HANDS of Someone they CANNOT SEE in flesh! Jesus said, "Blessed are they which have not SEEN, yet have BELIEVED"! Faith is NOT what we see now, but that which we take hold of, HOPE for, until that which is not seen appears! We don't need faith for what we CAN SEE!
Victory, victory shall be mine, Victory, victory shall be mine.
If I hold my peace and let (allow, permit) the LORD to
fight my battles; victory, victory shall be mine!
Falla39
Truthseeker
07-10-2012, 10:00 AM
Why is daughter even running the church? Family runned businesses is not a church model.
Falla39
07-10-2012, 10:41 AM
Why is daughter even running the church? Family runned businesses is not a church model.
I wonder what God thought about Family run ARKS! LOL!
Even if a church is not a 501 c 3 tax-exempt corporation, it is still best for the church itself to have board members and an account of all monies vs a one man show.
It saves the people from experiencing a lot of grief later and it is an attempt to unify the people knowing everything is on the up and up.
Perhaps the problem there is that they voted it in, but they changed their mind and did not really want to become corporate? Somebody should have told ya'll and then proceedings could have taken place to hold another vote. This is on them and their lack of communication.
When my husband called the previous pastor, which he did numerous times, he never responded. And then when the superintendent asked him why he never responded, he said he had been "too busy". He was "too busy" for years and this was supposed to be an accepted answer to us.
The response I have gotten from SE so far is the same response we got from the district superintendent and presbyter. It feels hauntingly familiar while I have stuck my neck out here trying to understand. Oh well.
I realized I should put: "which is no response at all" in case there were any confusion. I realized I did not write this clearly.
AreYouReady?
07-10-2012, 10:48 AM
Jesus said in Matt.15:13 that every plant that his Father hath not plant would be uprooted. I believe very "plant", whether it be an individual, church, organization, nation, etc., will in time, be tried/tested, as if by fire.
Could it be that IF those involved would pray and fast and allow the LORD to fight their battle, it might turn out differently. After all, IF the people of GOD paid for the church, it should belong to GOD. GOD CAN take care of that which belongs to HIM!!
HE IS the WONDERFUL COUNCELLOR, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, AND THE PRINCE OF PEACE!!!
Seems that most cannot trust these kind of things into the HANDS of Someone they CANNOT SEE in flesh! Jesus said, "Blessed are they which have not SEEN, yet have BELIEVED"! Faith is NOT what we see now, but that which we take hold of, HOPE for, until that which is not seen appears! We don't need faith for what we CAN SEE!
Victory, victory shall be mine, Victory, victory shall be mine.
If I hold my peace and let (allow, permit) the LORD to
fight my battles; victory, victory shall be mine!
Falla39
:thumbsup
Timmy
07-10-2012, 10:54 AM
. . . How sad to manipulate a good group of people to get what you want! . . .
Unless it's what God wants. Of course. Just sayin'. ;)
Timmy
07-10-2012, 11:04 AM
SE,
Could you please elaborate a bit on what you are saying here? You see, in the situation we were in, there were things that did not look good at all. When we took the church there were no records and a number of things that had been done that we were taught strictly against. We were taught to do everything by the law and by the books.
We took the issue to the district board. They swept everything under the rug which made our situation HORRIBLE. They left us to rot and sort everything out which made things so, so much worse. We were WILLING to listen to them and do what they wanted but they gave us NO direction. We were left to flounder. This confused the whole church and because my husband put everything in order according to law, they accused us of changing everything and even of stealing money. The district did NOTHING, even when my husband showed up with a packet of information that we had worked three hours to compile, he did not even look at it.
For the first time, after reading your post about things being different in that era and how things were done, it occurred to me that MAYBE the district assumed everyone just went with the flow on these things as they tried (or DIDN'T, in this case, try to determine whether there was any wrongdoing.....it was assumed automatically by the board that there was not any wrongdoing based ONLY on the reputation of the previous pastor when we had records to the contrary). This helps me to MAYBE, JUST MAYBE understand a little bit the actions of the board who should have talked to us as we were so willing to listen and heed their direction.
People in the church sued my husband and the church when the previous pastor told them they "had no choice" but to sue us because we were supposedly destroying the church. After dragging us through two lawsuits and destroying our lives, they finally dropped it because they had absolutely no evidence that we had done anything wrong whatsoever.
Take heed anyone who throws accusations of any kind around, it gets scary. Take heed before you say the words lawsuit.
In my experience (A of G), the district/section will almost always side with the pastor. (Misuse of fund, and a number of other issues; ended up with him resigning just before it went to a vote to remove him; 1/3 of the congregation left with him, and he started a new church, now defunct, in the same city.)
But I guess it's more a matter of not wanting to take any action. We (the board) went to them, and they sided with the pastor so they wouldn't have to do anything. In your case, you (the pastors?) went to the district, who didn't want to do anything.
They love the status quo, I guess.
Truthseeker
07-10-2012, 11:36 AM
I wonder what God thought about Family run ARKS! LOL!
Yeah, look what happend with the family runned ark.
Falla39
07-10-2012, 11:37 AM
In 1958 our late father founded a work for GOD in a small town in North Central Texas. It began with GOD, a man, a woman and their eleven children. The "Ark" GOD had Daddy build for the saving of his own house, has grown and many others have joined us.
BUT it began with one man, his wife and their children. It had to start with someone! Thank GOD it did, for it now is a place of worship for most of "our house".
My husband and I will celebrate 53 yrs. of marriage tomorrow. We have raised six children, who married and have 22 children among themselves. Our eldest child, a daughter, and her husband's eldest son, has given us our two Great-granddaughters.
We married in 1959, eight months after the church doors opened. We have remained through the years, our roots growing down deep! We two, who became one, in 1959, have grown in number to 39. This includes our six children's original spouses, and a grand-daughter in law, married to our eldest grandson.
Even though the LORD used our father to BEGIN the work here in this city, HE will decide who HE will use to put the FINISHING touches on it! LOOKING UNTO JESUS, the Author and The Finisher of our faith!
Although God "gave" our father and mother this city many years ago, we have only been "laborers together WITH GOD". HE allowed us to "work in His field or vineyard". The earth is the LORD'S and the FULNESS thereof".
Falla39
Cindy
07-10-2012, 11:40 AM
When my husband called the previous pastor, which he did numerous times, he never responded. And then when the superintendent asked him why he never responded, he said he had been "too busy". He was "too busy" for years and this was supposed to be an accepted answer to us.
I think y'all just got the run around, and nobody wanted to help. Was the previous pastor related to or friends with the DS?
Margies3
07-10-2012, 11:41 AM
A good deal of the income for the church comes from property rentals which the church owns IN THE FORMER PASTOR'S NAME! If the church is dissolved, she can inherit the property and the rental income.
Looks to me as if she had a plan all along........... but then that's just MY observation.
The thing I don't understand is how in the world this thing could happen to begin with. I was never involved at the Board level in the Apostolic churches I went to (not even sure if all of them had a board. and those that did were all male.) But I've been on the Board at both the Methodist Church where we attended for 23 years and now at the Alliance Church (where we've been for the past 8 years or so). In both cases, one of the safeguards we had in place is an annual audit of the church finances done by someone from OUTSIDE of the church. Do Apostolic churches not do audits???
Falla39
07-10-2012, 11:42 AM
Yeah, look what happend with the family runned ark.
God called Noah to build an ark to the saving of his OWN
house. HE saved Noah's familiy, and started over!
Sister Alvear
07-10-2012, 11:42 AM
sad...sad day when things like this happen...
Steve Epley
07-10-2012, 11:48 AM
Some thoughts(since I am a pastor and have known the pastor this is some observations maybe not thought of)
1. The former pastor was a demanded preacher and singer for which he recieved I would say a sizable income from his preaching out also he was an organizational official for year that probably(?) netted some income. Like mpst preachers of that era he probably dumped it all right back into the church. Pastor who teach the tithes belongs to the ministry(I believe that also) the majority pay most of the church bills and improvements and guest preachers out of the tithe. Years ago the tax professionals were telling us do NOT have two accounts. That has changed but I can see how a man 20 years or more to my senior might not comprehend the changes in the tax laws? Thus this unfortunate ordeal.
2. I wonder if the members thought of asking those prominent men who fellowshipped the church and pastor about coming in and trying to reconcile this situation? I know some of the men that were close to the pastor and church maybe their influence could help?
3. Some church in the area is getting ready to have revival.
4. I feel so sad for the saints who have been faithful.
5. I do NOT believe the church should be set up like a family business where the family decides who is going to be the pastor.
Steve Epley
07-10-2012, 11:49 AM
Also unless things changed in these later years the pastor lived a modest life and was a very humble loving man.
Sister Alvear
07-10-2012, 12:15 PM
So true Elder Epley...I too knew the pastor and his wife...they were awesome people. I am sad that this is happening if it is...wish we knew both sides of the story...However and whatever...we can pray....
Falla39
07-10-2012, 12:21 PM
Above all, it is imparative that each member KEEP their heart
and spirit right!
Falla39
Cindy
07-10-2012, 12:28 PM
Above all, it is imparative that each member KEEP their heart
and spirit right!
Falla39
Yes!
AreYouReady?
07-10-2012, 12:57 PM
Some thoughts(since I am a pastor and have known the pastor this is some observations maybe not thought of)
1. The former pastor was a demanded preacher and singer for which he recieved I would say a sizable income from his preaching out also he was an organizational official for year that probably(?) netted some income. Like mpst preachers of that era he probably dumped it all right back into the church. Pastor who teach the tithes belongs to the ministry(I believe that also) the majority pay most of the church bills and improvements and guest preachers out of the tithe. Years ago the tax professionals were telling us do NOT have two accounts. That has changed but I can see how a man 20 years or more to my senior might not comprehend the changes in the tax laws? Thus this unfortunate ordeal.
2. I wonder if the members thought of asking those prominent men who fellowshipped the church and pastor about coming in and trying to reconcile this situation? I know some of the men that were close to the pastor and church maybe their influence could help?
3. Some church in the area is getting ready to have revival.
4. I feel so sad for the saints who have been faithful.
5. I do NOT believe the church should be set up like a family business where the family decides who is going to be the pastor.
1. The tax law allows for no excuse. However, that is why he let his daughter be office manager? She should have known what the tax laws are and informed him.
2. Didn't Mr. Steinway post that none of them wanted to get involved?
3. :thumbsup
4. They certainly did not deserve this, which is why the leadership should be seeking God in this matter.
5. :thumbsup:thumbsup
rgcraig
07-10-2012, 01:13 PM
Some thoughts(since I am a pastor and have known the pastor this is some observations maybe not thought of)
1. The former pastor was a demanded preacher and singer for which he recieved I would say a sizable income from his preaching out also he was an organizational official for year that probably(?) netted some income. Like mpst preachers of that era he probably dumped it all right back into the church. Pastor who teach the tithes belongs to the ministry(I believe that also) the majority pay most of the church bills and improvements and guest preachers out of the tithe. Years ago the tax professionals were telling us do NOT have two accounts. That has changed but I can see how a man 20 years or more to my senior might not comprehend the changes in the tax laws? Thus this unfortunate ordeal.
2. I wonder if the members thought of asking those prominent men who fellowshipped the church and pastor about coming in and trying to reconcile this situation? I know some of the men that were close to the pastor and church maybe their influence could help?
3. Some church in the area is getting ready to have revival.
4. I feel so sad for the saints who have been faithful.
5. I do NOT believe the church should be set up like a family business where the family decides who is going to be the pastor.
Bro. E,
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I agree with your post!!
Truthseeker
07-10-2012, 01:16 PM
God called Noah to build an ark to the saving of his OWN
house. HE saved Noah's familiy, and started over!
Look what happened after the ark. Son saw is father nakedness. Besides, it was not a serious statement. Noah would be more a type of Christ then a model for a family runned church(business)
MissBrattified
07-10-2012, 01:47 PM
One fact - the vote for pastor was for the daughter's choice.
:hmmm
MissBrattified
07-10-2012, 01:48 PM
Some thoughts(since I am a pastor and have known the pastor this is some observations maybe not thought of)
1. The former pastor was a demanded preacher and singer for which he recieved I would say a sizable income from his preaching out also he was an organizational official for year that probably(?) netted some income. Like mpst preachers of that era he probably dumped it all right back into the church. Pastor who teach the tithes belongs to the ministry(I believe that also) the majority pay most of the church bills and improvements and guest preachers out of the tithe. Years ago the tax professionals were telling us do NOT have two accounts. That has changed but I can see how a man 20 years or more to my senior might not comprehend the changes in the tax laws? Thus this unfortunate ordeal.
2. I wonder if the members thought of asking those prominent men who fellowshipped the church and pastor about coming in and trying to reconcile this situation? I know some of the men that were close to the pastor and church maybe their influence could help?
3. Some church in the area is getting ready to have revival.
4. I feel so sad for the saints who have been faithful.
5. I do NOT believe the church should be set up like a family business where the family decides who is going to be the pastor.
:yourock
Praxeas
07-10-2012, 02:26 PM
BTW aside from family run churches, could this also be a problem of churches that leave organizations and become independent? There isn't really anyone one can go to to complain
StillStanding
07-10-2012, 04:12 PM
Questions:
If the local preacher was the pastor's choice as next pastor, why didn't he mention it to the congregation, or to anybody else besides his daughter?
Why is the relationship between the daughter and the would- be pastor not relevant to this situation? Everyone in the church knows about it and talks about it. The previous pastor was very anti-remarriage, so wouldn't the daughter try keep any romantic relationship as secret as possible?
Comment
I would LOVE to hear the other side of this story! Will they allow an independent audit of the church's finances? I would LOVE to hear their explanation why they sent out the certified letters kicking out long time members of the church who happened to vote against the local preacher as pastor! I would LOVE to know why no unbiased outside preacher friend is being brought in to handle the process of finding a new pastor for the church!
I was told that it has gotten to he point where some members won't talk to each other, and the pro-local guy crowd is sitting on one side of the church and the anti-local guy crowd are sitting on the other side of the church! I can't help but smile thinking about how one side might try to out-spiritualize the other side! How will tongues and interpretation be handled?
Esther
07-10-2012, 04:15 PM
I wonder what God thought about Family run ARKS! LOL!
That would not be apple to apples. There was no one else to choose. Today there is more than just family.:highfive
I was told that it has gotten to he point where some members won't talk to each other, and the pro-local guy crowd is sitting on one side of the church and the anti-local guy crowd are sitting on the other side of the church! I can't help but smile thinking about how one side might try to out-spiritualize the other side! How will tongues and interpretation be handled?
Sounds like a recipe for revival to me!!!!
Amanah
07-10-2012, 04:32 PM
God bless this church family, lead and guide them in Jesus Name.
I can't even imagine how torn and hurt many of these people are.
StillStanding
07-10-2012, 07:16 PM
I just found out that they are bringing the local preacher, who was previously voted down, up for another vote to be pastor! (minus all the saints who were given the certified letter of dismissal as church members!)
The plan works to perfection! No other alternate was ever offered! :foottap
RandyWayne
07-10-2012, 08:12 PM
I just found out that they are bringing the local preacher, who was previously voted down, up for another vote to be pastor! (minus all the saints who were given the certified letter of dismissal as church members!)
The plan works to perfection! No other alternate was ever offered! :foottap
A plan worthy of the Imperial President himself.
I think y'all just got the run around, and nobody wanted to help. Was the previous pastor related to or friends with the DS?
He had been on the district board for 18 years and his wife was the ladies auxiliary president. See what a mess it would have been if they would have looked?
AreYouReady?
07-10-2012, 09:22 PM
Yeah...if one does not look, then they do not know. ;) Gee....we just had no idea! :ignore
HolyFire
07-10-2012, 10:52 PM
It was really the district superintendent and the presbyter. The board never even had a chance to see anything. The district superintendent kept the board from seeing the compilation that my husband took off of work and drove three hours to show them. He told my husband outside the door that "we aren't going to look at that today".
At a later meeting the district superintendent and presbyter took a cursory glance at it before ripping into my husband about some decisions he made. Decisions which were based on decisions the district superintendent had made and didn't follow through on.
At any rate, I would really like to hear from Steve Epley, who would know more about how things were done in the older days, how these things were done. It doesn't excuse what the district superintendent and presbyster did but it helps me understand more why they would not just jump into the situation like we thought they would. Even so, we expected they may not jump in but we at least expected some sort of explanation or discussion on what they might do. At the time, it looked to me like a cover up but that hopefully was not their intent. Of course, I will probably never know.
Were y'all not able to appeal beyond the district?
Esaias
07-10-2012, 10:57 PM
BTW aside from family run churches, could this also be a problem of churches that leave organizations and become independent? There isn't really anyone one can go to to complain
Actually, seems to me the problem would be solved if there was any actual unity in the local church body. They could just meet somewhere else without the power grabbers and let them be, and follow on with God.
All this squabbling over real estate, money, 'the position'... bleh.
HolyFire
07-10-2012, 10:58 PM
To fill some of you in. There's a strict traditional Apostolic Oneness church that was founded and pastored for several years (50?) who had authoritarian type control. He didn't have a board and ran everything himself, including all of the finances. When he got older, he had his daughter do all of the finances, but he remained in total control of the church until his death a few weeks ago.
When he became incapacitated, his daughter was in full control doing whatever he wished.
When he died, it left a vacuum of power which the daughter gladly took to herself! She was being paid very well for her services to the church, and she politicked for a local preacher to be pastor who had agreed that she could keep her position. She is divorced and the local preacher is single, so there are rumors that they are romantically involved. Just a rumor.
Last week, the daughter gave herself a raise of $200 per week as there is nobody in power to oppose. If she keeps her position of office manager, she would remain at the "current" salary of $50,000. Keep in mind that the church runs less than 100 people!
Well, last week she sent out certified letters to many of the families that voted against her choice as pastor, telling them that they are no longer members of the church and are not invited back! The are saints that have been loyal members for many years!
It appears that she is doing "scorched earth" to the church to keep her position. You see, all of the church property is in the former pastor's name, since he never had a church board for legal matters. If the church is dissolved, she might claim the church property as an inheritance.
Been to this church, if it's the one I'm thinking about. Down to 100? I remember when the congregation ran 400-500.
Been to this church, if it's the one I'm thinking about. Down to 100? I remember when the congregation ran 400-500.
400-500 might be a tad evangelistic. My sources who are out of that church say that at its peak it ran around 300 maybe 350. Which would mean on Easter Sunday they might have hit the low end of your estimate I guess!
AreYouReady?
07-10-2012, 11:20 PM
Actually, seems to me the problem would be solved if there was any actual unity in the local church body. They could just meet somewhere else without the power grabbers and let them be, and follow on with God.
All this squabbling over real estate, money, 'the position'... bleh.
:highfive
All the money in the world is not worth going through this stuff. Gather in a home, a rented building, someone's garage etc. and give this all over to the Lord. Ask Him to raise up a leader in the group.
StillStanding
07-11-2012, 06:13 AM
:highfive
All the money in the world is not worth going through this stuff. Gather in a home, a rented building, someone's garage etc. and give this all over to the Lord. Ask Him to raise up a leader in the group.
I was told that an official of ALJC has spoken with the group that was kicked out, and they will help them start a new work. The problem is that many of these are elderly people with little income, some of which have attended that church for a great part of their life. Their whole religious identity is with that church and the former pastor! One can understand why this is such an emotional moment for them!
I visited this church over a year ago, and it is a shell of it's former glory.
Esther
07-11-2012, 06:53 AM
I was told that an official of ALJC has spoken with the group that was kicked out, and they will help them start a new work. The problem is that many of these are elderly people with little income, some of which have attended that church for a great part of their life. Their whole religious identity is with that church and the former pastor! One can understand why this is such an emotional moment for them!
I visited this church over a year ago, and it is a shell of it's former glory.
Truly sad.
Some thoughts(since I am a pastor and have known the pastor this is some observations maybe not thought of)
1. The former pastor was a demanded preacher and singer for which he recieved I would say a sizable income from his preaching out also he was an organizational official for year that probably(?) netted some income. Like mpst preachers of that era he probably dumped it all right back into the church. Pastor who teach the tithes belongs to the ministry(I believe that also) the majority pay most of the church bills and improvements and guest preachers out of the tithe. Years ago the tax professionals were telling us do NOT have two accounts. That has changed but I can see how a man 20 years or more to my senior might not comprehend the changes in the tax laws? Thus this unfortunate ordeal.
Hmm. Interesting. I am not sure that this post was intended to be written to me but nevertheless, I will answer.
I have never heard this before. The previous pastor in the church we pastored is probably 65 or so now. Pretty much the same age as the pastor who taught us carefully to abide by all the tax laws. The people who sued us were demanding that my husband pay the church land payment of $350.00 at 14% interest out of the tithe of $700.00 a month. We had just come from Home Missions, having started a church and paying all the bills for five years. We told them we were unable to carry another church and that we had been told we would be paid tithes when we took the church. To make a very long story short, we sold the land with a lawful vote of the church to get the church out from under the burden of it. The building they were in was falling apart and needed repairs. There was no money to fix it. Before the church split that happened a couple years before we arrived (over finances), the pastor and his wife were making around $45,000 a year with what I could piece together. They had drawn blueprints for a new building on the property, a huge building along with a school and many other things. What the pastor did not tell the congregation was that when he left all the funds were drained, all income was gone (there had been another income stream that had also dried up) and that there was less than $2000.00 in the coffers. When we got there, we simply had to be honest. There was no money. This was shocking to them and preachers in the area were also shocked. We were pretty much blamed for the lack of funds and sued.
I have an honest question. I hope that your position will not prevent you from answering honestly. Do you ever feel that in a church that has completely drained funds, that is it right and proper for a pastor to be spending funds from the expense account for his harley davidson motorcycle and american express bills in excess of $1000.00 a month (he was spending $4000.00 a month that we could piece together before the funds were drained)? Is there ever any excuse for this? To our way of thinking, it is ILLEGAL for a pastor to write personal checks from an expense account for personal items. This is what we had been taught. Is there any reason a district board would turn a blind eye to this? Would this be viewed as ILLEGAL, as we viewed it? Or would it be viewed as foolish and tsk, tsk. But not something they are going to delve into as a serious issue? If they did not delve into it, why not? Why would this not be seen as serious?
One thing I don't think I will ever understand is the lack of explanation, lack of returned phone calls, lack of communication on the parts of the previous pastor, district superintendent and presbyter.
My husband was ready to file a grievance against this pastor and take him before the district board when the presbyter called my husband and asked him not to because his wife had be diagnosed with stage four cancer. Well, then, what do you do? We washed our hands of it. Five months after his wife died, the previous pastor married his AIM interpreter.
Questions:
If the local preacher was the pastor's choice as next pastor, why didn't he mention it to the congregation, or to anybody else besides his daughter?
Why is the relationship between the daughter and the would- be pastor not relevant to this situation? Everyone in the church knows about it and talks about it. The previous pastor was very anti-remarriage, so wouldn't the daughter try keep any romantic relationship as secret as possible?
Comment
I would LOVE to hear the other side of this story! Will they allow an independent audit of the church's finances? I would LOVE to hear their explanation why they sent out the certified letters kicking out long time members of the church who happened to vote against the local preacher as pastor! I would LOVE to know why no unbiased outside preacher friend is being brought in to handle the process of finding a new pastor for the church!
I was told that it has gotten to he point where some members won't talk to each other, and the pro-local guy crowd is sitting on one side of the church and the anti-local guy crowd are sitting on the other side of the church! I can't help but smile thinking about how one side might try to out-spiritualize the other side! How will tongues and interpretation be handled?
That is relevant. Speculation about being domineering being the cause of her divorce isn't.
Amanah
07-11-2012, 08:25 AM
I was told that an official of ALJC has spoken with the group that was kicked out, and they will help them start a new work. The problem is that many of these are elderly people with little income, some of which have attended that church for a great part of their life. Their whole religious identity is with that church and the former pastor! One can understand why this is such an emotional moment for them!
I visited this church over a year ago, and it is a shell of it's former glory.
This is very sad indeed, if the group is small enough, maybe they can start out in someone's home as a bible study group in the meantime.
I just found out that they are bringing the local preacher, who was previously voted down, up for another vote to be pastor! (minus all the saints who were given the certified letter of dismissal as church members!)
The plan works to perfection! No other alternate was ever offered! :foottap
Same thing happened when we left the church we pastored. The district sent ONE man. We didn't care for him but we had to leave. We were done. He was voted in. In a couple years he resigned and the church folded. Of course, that was our fault too.
Were y'all not able to appeal beyond the district?
To who?
AreYouReady?
07-11-2012, 09:25 AM
I was told that an official of ALJC has spoken with the group that was kicked out, and they will help them start a new work. The problem is that many of these are elderly people with little income, some of which have attended that church for a great part of their life. Their whole religious identity is with that church and the former pastor! One can understand why this is such an emotional moment for them!
I visited this church over a year ago, and it is a shell of it's former glory.
While I have little faith in man, I do have faith in God in that He is of tender mercy for these elderly people. I hope that they can keep the faith in God only and just watch what miracles He can perform on their behalf! :nod
Who knows who God will send their way to help them?
KeptByTheWord
07-11-2012, 09:56 AM
This is a terribly sad situation. Yet, I see the Lord working here in the midst of it all.
Whenever people stake too much in one man, one family, one group, or one organization, it generally comes crumbling down, just as is happening to this establishment. We must remember that the church belongs to Jesus Christ, and Him alone. It is not a business enterprise, or a kingdom. It is a living, breathing, alive group of people who are dedicated to serving Christ, and not a man/group/kingdom/organization.
When we begin to get the mindset that the church building does not constitute necessarily a place where we can only meet with God, and we put on the mindset that wherever 2-3 are gathered together in His name, that this is CHURCH, then perhaps a healing work will be done in people's lives everywhere.
It is indeed so sad to hear that it is the elderly affected in this situation, because they don't possess the strength, energy, or even financial resources needed to begin to build a new fellowship.
I hope and pray that through this situation, that people will begin to understand that church is not a building. It is not with a pastor. It is not with a denomination. It is not a business. But it is people meeting together loving God, and sharing the love of God with their fellow man, and reaching out to those in need.
James 1:7 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
MissBrattified
07-11-2012, 10:06 AM
I was told that an official of ALJC has spoken with the group that was kicked out, and they will help them start a new work. The problem is that many of these are elderly people with little income, some of which have attended that church for a great part of their life. Their whole religious identity is with that church and the former pastor! One can understand why this is such an emotional moment for them!
I visited this church over a year ago, and it is a shell of it's former glory.
If this report is accurate, then :thumbsup
Steve Epley
07-11-2012, 12:32 PM
I do know for a season the former left the org. he was an official of for years and joined another then went back to the former org. Nearly all his closest associates were in the former org anf preached with him for years. I owuld hope maybe an old family friend could help? But remember a good man with a good name does not mean the children will be the same. And are we sure she is carrying out his wishes or just claiming she is? She might have hyjacked his so-called wishes tto get her wishes. AND remember he was elderly when he passed NONE of us will think as clearly in advanced years as we do now. I certainly am making this a matter of prayer.
houston
07-11-2012, 12:56 PM
Um. He's dead. Can't pastor from the grave.
HolyFire
07-11-2012, 02:44 PM
To who?
There's not anyone above the district? Someone at Hazlewood? This really seems like something that NEEDS to be out in the open - a pastor who feels entitled pilfering funds from a church. He bleeds it dry, leaves the church when there's nothing left and goes on to another church, assumingly pilfering that one? I'd have made sure HQ knew because there is now a city without a Jesus name church.
There's not anyone above the district? Someone at Hazlewood? This really seems like something that NEEDS to be out in the open - a pastor who feels entitled pilfering funds from a church. He bleeds it dry, leaves the church when there's nothing left and goes on to another church, assumingly pilfering that one? I'd have made sure HQ knew because there is now a city without a Jesus name church.
We were so destroyed and tired out from all this and the lawsuits and everything that I would go to bed and literally shiver and shake for a half an hour after getting a letter from the attorneys or any other shake-up. My husband was waking up in the mornings unable to hear and then his hearing would return after a while awake. We left the church and my husband got cancer. We were done fighting. We left the UPC altogether. My opinion was that they said "Give us Barabbas" so we gave them Barabbas. Perhaps, had we been stronger, we could have done more. We were just utterly destroyed. This was a long time ago and I am just now having the guts to really speak about it. When it was going on, I alluded to things on forums but I always figured it was not for forum fodder because I believed that ultimately things would work out. Later, I did not really delve into it on forums because I was so tired and scared that these people would come after us and beat us some more. We had people who drove by our house and beeped the horn for weeks on end at 3:00 in the morning and people smashed out the headlights and taillights on my husband's truck. We could never prove who it was, of course. But we had to leave to save our own lives. It took me years to recover from post traumatic stress disorder and even today my nervous system is pretty delicate.
AreYouReady?
07-11-2012, 03:26 PM
I do know for a season the former left the org. he was an official of for years and joined another then went back to the former org. Nearly all his closest associates were in the former org anf preached with him for years. I owuld hope maybe an old family friend could help? But remember a good man with a good name does not mean the children will be the same. And are we sure she is carrying out his wishes or just claiming she is? She might have hyjacked his so-called wishes tto get her wishes. AND remember he was elderly when he passed NONE of us will think as clearly in advanced years as we do now. I certainly am making this a matter of prayer.
Brother *** was a respected and well thought of man. I don't think anybody is blaming him for this debacle. Some of us are just surprised that prior advanced directives were not taken before his death.
She could very well be just making claims. And we do not know for sure that there might just be some advanced directives that might be kept hidden? After all she was office manager and could very well have just did things her own way. Who knows?
I feel badly for the people who have been members of this assembly for so long, contributed to monetarily and physically to this church who essentially have no say now that their Pastor is gone.
But I know the God that I serve is a just God and He knows exactly what is going on right now. He will take care of these people and give them new leadership because His will is not to be messed with.
Truthseeker
07-11-2012, 03:36 PM
Another example that shows one man ministry is a broken system.
my kids mom
07-11-2012, 04:38 PM
My parents are and have been members of this church for over 30 years. Myself, my brothers and sisters also grew up in this church. It was once a. Mighty church, with strong leadership and a true passion for Christ. My parents stayed there while their shepherd was fading with age and recollection of who he even was, much less that he had sheep. They loved their first family and supported them with tithes, offerings, love and respect. Now that they are standing up for what is right, and trying to protect the church they. helped build,they are being kicked out. As far as what is right and what is wrong, its Gods final judgement, but I will tell you when a man leaves his wife because he is in a relationship with the pastors daughter and then wants to become pastor, there is a problem. What this church needs is someone who will stand up against this evil and bring this church back together.
HolyFire
07-11-2012, 04:46 PM
We were so destroyed and tired out from all this and the lawsuits and everything that I would go to bed and literally shiver and shake for a half an hour after getting a letter from the attorneys or any other shake-up. My husband was waking up in the mornings unable to hear and then his hearing would return after a while awake. We left the church and my husband got cancer. We were done fighting. We left the UPC altogether. My opinion was that they said "Give us Barabbas" so we gave them Barabbas. Perhaps, had we been stronger, we could have done more. We were just utterly destroyed. This was a long time ago and I am just now having the guts to really speak about it. When it was going on, I alluded to things on forums but I always figured it was not for forum fodder because I believed that ultimately things would work out. Later, I did not really delve into it on forums because I was so tired and scared that these people would come after us and beat us some more. We had people who drove by our house and beeped the horn for weeks on end at 3:00 in the morning and people smashed out the headlights and taillights on my husband's truck. We could never prove who it was, of course. But we had to leave to save our own lives. It took me years to recover from post traumatic stress disorder and even today my nervous system is pretty delicate.
My heart hurts for you and your husband. Glad you are better in spite of abusive people.
Esther
07-11-2012, 04:54 PM
My parents are and have been members of this church for over 30 years. Myself, my brothers and sisters also grew up in this church. It was once a. Mighty church, with strong leadership and a true passion for Christ. My parents stayed there while their shepherd was fading with age and recollection of who he even was, much less that he had sheep. They loved their first family and supported them with tithes, offerings, love and respect. Now that they are standing up for what is right, and trying to protect the church they. helped build,they are being kicked out. As far as what is right and what is wrong, its Gods final judgement, but I will tell you when a man leaves his wife because he is in a relationship with the pastors daughter and then wants to become pastor, there is a problem. What this church needs is someone who will stand up against this evil and bring this church back together.
Judgement begins at the house of God. Unfortunately, a lot of innocent people get hurt when peoples motives are not God's motives.
Amanah
07-11-2012, 05:05 PM
My parents are and have been members of this church for over 30 years. Myself, my brothers and sisters also grew up in this church. It was once a. Mighty church, with strong leadership and a true passion for Christ. My parents stayed there while their shepherd was fading with age and recollection of who he even was, much less that he had sheep. They loved their first family and supported them with tithes, offerings, love and respect. Now that they are standing up for what is right, and trying to protect the church they. helped build,they are being kicked out. As far as what is right and what is wrong, its Gods final judgement, but I will tell you when a man leaves his wife because he is in a relationship with the pastors daughter and then wants to become pastor, there is a problem. What this church needs is someone who will stand up against this evil and bring this church back together.
God's church is made up of imperfect people, who sometimes fail. But God will not fail us. I'm so sad that your parents and others are suffering through this fiery trial. Remember though that the church is not a building, and the body of Christ is larger then a local assembly. Wait on the Lord and see where he will lead and how he will guide and protect his children. God bless you dear Sister, and bless your parents and this church in Jesus name.
Esther
07-11-2012, 05:06 PM
My parents are and have been members of this church for over 30 years. Myself, my brothers and sisters also grew up in this church. It was once a. Mighty church, with strong leadership and a true passion for Christ. My parents stayed there while their shepherd was fading with age and recollection of who he even was, much less that he had sheep. They loved their first family and supported them with tithes, offerings, love and respect. Now that they are standing up for what is right, and trying to protect the church they. helped build,they are being kicked out. As far as what is right and what is wrong, its Gods final judgement, but I will tell you when a man leaves his wife because he is in a relationship with the pastors daughter and then wants to become pastor, there is a problem. What this church needs is someone who will stand up against this evil and bring this church back together.
I am reminded of when the early believers were prescuted they were force to split up and it caused the church to mulitiply.
God can still use this for His Glory.
KeptByTheWord
07-11-2012, 06:31 PM
I am reminded of when the early believers were prescuted they were force to split up and it caused the church to mulitiply.
God can still use this for His Glory.
Amen. Believing and praying with all my heart that this sad situation will resolve in a way that will bring those involved in this situation to a greater and deeper knowledge of Jesus.
My heart hurts for you and your husband. Glad you are better in spite of abusive people.
Thanks. Time does heal.
My parents are and have been members of this church for over 30 years. Myself, my brothers and sisters also grew up in this church. It was once a. Mighty church, with strong leadership and a true passion for Christ. My parents stayed there while their shepherd was fading with age and recollection of who he even was, much less that he had sheep. They loved their first family and supported them with tithes, offerings, love and respect. Now that they are standing up for what is right, and trying to protect the church they. helped build,they are being kicked out. As far as what is right and what is wrong, its Gods final judgement, but I will tell you when a man leaves his wife because he is in a relationship with the pastors daughter and then wants to become pastor, there is a problem. What this church needs is someone who will stand up against this evil and bring this church back together.
Sorry you are going through this. It certainly doesn't sound right. Hard to say if anything can or will be done.
StillStanding
07-11-2012, 07:37 PM
My parents are and have been members of this church for over 30 years. Myself, my brothers and sisters also grew up in this church. It was once a. Mighty church, with strong leadership and a true passion for Christ. My parents stayed there while their shepherd was fading with age and recollection of who he even was, much less that he had sheep. They loved their first family and supported them with tithes, offerings, love and respect. Now that they are standing up for what is right, and trying to protect the church they. helped build,they are being kicked out. As far as what is right and what is wrong, its Gods final judgement, but I will tell you when a man leaves his wife because he is in a relationship with the pastors daughter and then wants to become pastor, there is a problem. What this church needs is someone who will stand up against this evil and bring this church back together.
Wow! I don't know who you are, but my thoughts and prayers are with your family. It is truly sad to see what was once a great church come down to this type of thing. It's tragic, actually!
AreYouReady?
07-11-2012, 08:30 PM
My parents are and have been members of this church for over 30 years. Myself, my brothers and sisters also grew up in this church. It was once a. Mighty church, with strong leadership and a true passion for Christ. My parents stayed there while their shepherd was fading with age and recollection of who he even was, much less that he had sheep. They loved their first family and supported them with tithes, offerings, love and respect. Now that they are standing up for what is right, and trying to protect the church they. helped build,they are being kicked out. As far as what is right and what is wrong, its Gods final judgement, but I will tell you when a man leaves his wife because he is in a relationship with the pastors daughter and then wants to become pastor, there is a problem. What this church needs is someone who will stand up against this evil and bring this church back together.
Wow. This brings to light a few things. IF this is true, then her earthly father would be extremely upset to know this. If this is true, then how can some in the church who support her uphold this nasty situation?
BroJoe
07-12-2012, 01:52 AM
In my opinion, this entire thread is gossip.
Just sayin'.
Amanah
07-12-2012, 04:30 AM
In my opinion, this entire thread is gossip.
Just sayin'.
you read the entire thread? :spit
HolyFire
07-12-2012, 06:31 AM
you read the entire thread? :spit
Not to me, I've visited this church several times. They need serious prayer.
StillStanding
07-12-2012, 07:04 AM
In my opinion, this entire thread is gossip.
Just sayin'.
I knew I might get this type of response. That's OK! I wavered between appearing to spread gossip by exposing a travesty, or keeping quiet about good people being bullied and kicked out of the church that they have supported and identified with for decades. I finally decided that these people, many who are elderly, needed a voice.
Amanah
07-12-2012, 07:05 AM
I agree that they need serious prayer and my heart aches for them, my comment was teasing Joe for calling the thread gossip while admiting he had read every post.
I knew I might get this type of response. That's OK! I wavered between appearing to spread gossip by exposing a travesty, or keeping quiet about good people being bullied and kicked out of the church that they have supported and identified with for decades. I finally decided that these people, many who are elderly, needed a voice.
I agree in part, Piano Guy...just wish folks didn't know particulars, but that's not really you're fault either.
I came to this thread after details were deleted, yet though I wasn't privy to the happenings there, I knew whererof you speak.
It is tragic all around. The pastor was a good man...my brother knew him well...sang at his funeral.
AreYouReady?
07-12-2012, 08:28 AM
I knew I might get this type of response. That's OK! I wavered between appearing to spread gossip by exposing a travesty, or keeping quiet about good people being bullied and kicked out of the church that they have supported and identified with for decades. I finally decided that these people, many who are elderly, needed a voice.
I agree. Far to often there are some rogue people in power who bully and mistreat people who cannot defend themselves. I find it a travesty that there are elderly people being mistreated here.
Sometimes exposing those who willingly and deliberately push their weight around to obtain power is what keeps integrity and honesty upfront in any situation where people contribute money to support it.
Exposure is designed to foment shame and possibly bring the offender to repentance for the dirty deeds.
Abuse of power example....one of the main reasons; a desire to avoid bad publicity:
http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/12/12699159-report-finds-penn-state-president-paterno-concealed-facts-about-sandusky-sex-abuse?lite
aegsm76
07-12-2012, 09:11 AM
Transparency is a good thing.
Those in power often wish to hide their misdeeds by stating, "That's just gossip".
There is a difference between gossip and accountability/exposure.
Steve Epley
07-12-2012, 09:11 AM
Pianoman was raised in the city so no doubt he has friends and acquaintances in the church and maybe even family. It hurts to see a life's work destroyed by those who really have no Biblical authority to have any say. The Pastor's family though they should desire to see their Father's work go forward and blossom are not in authority particularly any woman. This is not a woman's role. Shoot me but there it is.
StillStanding
07-12-2012, 09:13 AM
Abuse of power example....one of the main reasons; a desire to avoid bad publicity:
http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/12/12699159-report-finds-penn-state-president-paterno-concealed-facts-about-sandusky-sex-abuse?lite
How many times do you think this type of cover-up to avoid bad publicity or reputation happens in our Apostolic churches? :eek:
How many times do you think this type of cover-up to avoid bad publicity or reputation happens in our Apostolic churches? :eek:
Well, having seen it first hand in the way I did......I'm afraid it happens more often than we care to admit or know about. This is why when people tell me to be quiet about things I know and have seen, I have a tendency to blow them off.
Think about it a minute. Think about what Paterno and those guys had to lose if the cat got out of the bag and what a mess it would have made. It was so much easier to just throw those kids under the bus.
Likewise, it is much easier to throw people who have little voice under the bus than address issues.
The real challenge is in figuring out WHO is abusing the power when you have little facts. We were accused of the ones abusing the power but we WANTED to talk about it so the truth could be shown and known. In our case, the lawsuits were simply dropped. When we tried to depose the previous pastor he had an absolute fit and because of a turn of events (the people suing us dropped him as their "expert witness") we were not allowed to subpoena him. Subpoenaing him would have been the best we could have hoped for.
People who hide the truth and want it swept under the rug are the people to suspect.
AND people who do not directly answer questions and refuse to engage in conversation about issues are also suspect.
AreYouReady?
07-12-2012, 09:37 AM
Pianoman was raised in the city so no doubt he has friends and acquaintances in the church and maybe even family. It hurts to see a life's work destroyed by those who really have no Biblical authority to have any say. The Pastor's family though they should desire to see their Father's work go forward and blossom are not in authority particularly any woman. This is not a woman's role. Shoot me but there it is.
Well Elder Epley, as much as I dislike being discounted because I am female, I have to agree with you here. I know that there are some things that God has placed in order and as a woman, I hope to be in obedience to God's order as outlined in scripture. The local assembly decisions of leadership are not hers alone to make.
This woman, being the daughter of a man of God and one who grew up in the church should know this. Yet, it looks as though she is deliberately disobeying scriptures...hence the reason why I say that if all this is happening, she is displaying a true Jezebel spirit...doesn't care who she hurts to get her way.
God has a way of dealing with people who run rough-shod over others, especially the vulnerable.
I hope that she is even reading this thread because she does not want to fall into the hands of the living God. I would be very afraid for her if she does not humble herself and let the people have the say in the church.
rgcraig
07-12-2012, 09:42 AM
Pianoman was raised in the city so no doubt he has friends and acquaintances in the church and maybe even family. It hurts to see a life's work destroyed by those who really have no Biblical authority to have any say. The Pastor's family though they should desire to see their Father's work go forward and blossom are not in authority particularly any woman. This is not a woman's role. Shoot me but there it is.
No shooting from me - - I agree with you!
No shooting from me - - I agree with you!
Although I think putting a woman in a secondary position is ridiculous, in this case, in a church where her father taught against it, she should not be in charge, if indeed she is. She should respect the institution and the people in it.
KeptByTheWord
07-12-2012, 10:16 AM
No shooting from me - - I agree with you!
Me second... :)
I would like to add that often the abused do not talk out of fear. This creates great difficulty in getting to the bottom of the truth in situations. And people will often emotionally abuse the abused to get them to not speak up with terms like "gossip" and "bitterness" etc.
The abused NEED to speak. The abusers will often use spiritual platitudes that in normal situations are good advice, like respecting your elders and not rebuking them etc. to keep the abused from speaking up. Unknowing good people who just aren't familiar with the pattern will be used by the abusers to keep the abused from speaking as well. The unknowing will think they are serving God by speaking against "gossiping" etc. They are usually good people, they just don't realize they are being manipulated by abusers in a distortion of what a religious leader should really guide a person to do.
StillStanding
07-12-2012, 10:34 AM
I agree in part, Piano Guy...just wish folks didn't know particulars, but that's not really you're fault either.
I came to this thread after details were deleted, yet though I wasn't privy to the happenings there, I knew whererof you speak.
It is tragic all around. The pastor was a good man...my brother knew him well...sang at his funeral.
Everyone, that I know of, loved and admired the former pastor. His only fault (but it's a big one!) was to not have a succession in place as he entered his elderly years, especially when his health began to fail. Maybe this story can serve as an example for other elderly pastors to begin to think about what will happen to the local church after they are gone. If there is no church board, put in place a pastor friend to help oversee the process of finding a new pastor.
Steve Epley
07-12-2012, 10:36 AM
I have known situations where the former Pastor's wife(he had died) had too much input into who was the next pastor. That is out of Bible order. The pastor should instruct his family while he is living the church is NOT a family business it is the Lord's work. If a family member has been faithful and the will of God is to place them in as Pastor wonderful it keeps some continuity in the process.
I have known situations where the former Pastor's wife(he had died) had too much input into who was the next pastor. That is out of Bible order. The pastor should instruct his family while he is living the church is NOT a family business it is the Lord's work.
I agree with this. I also think it is sad that the pastor's wife not only lost her husband, but her position and income. The church should leave no room for anybody to step in when a pastor dies to take over out of order. Protocol should be in place for all of it so it can happen in an orderly fashion. And, I hope the pastor also provided for his wife in the event of his death so she has not lost her husband, is out of her position, perhaps her home (parsonage) and loss of all her income.
HolyFire
07-12-2012, 10:41 AM
Everyone, that I know of, loved and admired the former pastor. His only fault (but it's a big one!) was to not have a succession in place as he entered his elderly years, especially when his health began to fail. Maybe this story can serve as an example for other elderly pastors to begin to think about what will happen to the local church after they are gone. If there is no church board, put in place a pastor friend to help oversee the process of finding a new pastor.
What happened to the son? Didn't he asst him at one time?
StillStanding
07-12-2012, 10:43 AM
I would like to add that often the abused do not talk out of fear. This creates great difficulty in getting to the bottom of the truth in situations. And people will often emotionally abuse the abused to get them to not speak up with terms like "gossip" and "bitterness" etc.
The abused NEED to speak. The abusers will often use spiritual platitudes that in normal situations are good advice, like respecting your elders and not rebuking them etc. to keep the abused from speaking up. Unknowing good people who just aren't familiar with the pattern will be used by the abusers to keep the abused from speaking as well. The unknowing will think they are serving God by speaking against "gossiping" etc. They are usually good people, they just don't realize they are being manipulated by abusers in a distortion of what a religious leader should really guide a person to do.
Well said! :thumbsup
StillStanding
07-12-2012, 10:49 AM
What happened to the son? Didn't he asst him at one time?
There are two sons that now pastor their own churches. Both were assistants at one time, but left to start their own work. Neither are interested in returning to be pastor of this congregation. In fact, I'm told that they are both embarrassed about what is going on! Neither want to touch this with a ten foot pole!
rgcraig
07-12-2012, 11:03 AM
There are two sons that now pastor their own churches. Both were assistants at one time, but left to start their own work. Neither are interested in returning to be pastor of this congregation. In fact, I'm told that they are both embarrassed about what is going on! Neither want to touch this with a ten foot pole!
I was going to ask where they were in all this - - they need at least try to talk some sense into their sister.
Sister Alvear
07-12-2012, 11:05 AM
It seems to me that they have a responsibility to stand for what is right...they are awesome men and maybe they need someone to talk with them about this...it may be hard but it is always right....to do the RIGHT thing....
PASTOR'S WIFE
07-12-2012, 11:45 AM
I understand that names have been deleted. Would someone at least let me know (PM)who you are discussing (length 17 pages). Just out of curiousity - would names have been deleted if it were a Charasmatic or trinity church, Protestant, Catholic? I feel sad for these church people. What a shame? Sounds like that daughter has a Jezebel (controling spirit).
Everyone, that I know of, loved and admired the former pastor. His only fault (but it's a big one!) was to not have a succession in place as he entered his elderly years, especially when his health began to fail. Maybe this story can serve as an example for other elderly pastors to begin to think about what will happen to the local church after they are gone. If there is no church board, put in place a pastor friend to help oversee the process of finding a new pastor.
so, somewhere between a "sole proprietorship" and a "board run church" there is a sane middle ground?
HolyFire
07-12-2012, 01:38 PM
There are two sons that now pastor their own churches. Both were assistants at one time, but left to start their own work. Neither are interested in returning to be pastor of this congregation. In fact, I'm told that they are both embarrassed about what is going on! Neither want to touch this with a ten foot pole!
THAT's right, Jr's church has my friend's parents.
MemTNApostolic
07-12-2012, 03:13 PM
I wish I could say what I know. Just know this: it will get worse before it gets better. I will say this: her mother would not be happy about what she's doing. God definitely is not. Just pray about this. I have gotten peace about this.
rgcraig
07-12-2012, 03:48 PM
So sad.
StillStanding
07-12-2012, 04:33 PM
I wish I could say what I know. Just know this: it will get worse before it gets better. I will say this: her mother would not be happy about what she's doing. God definitely is not. Just pray about this. I have gotten peace about this.
Prayers going up!
HeavenBound
07-12-2012, 04:41 PM
As a member of the Church, let me say a few things. The deceased Pastor did tell the Church that he was leaving his assistant Pastor as the Pastor, the congregation said No, but he insisted, he was so sick that we left it alone so as not to cause him undo alarm. The assistant Pastor called for a vote May 6, agreed that all members could vote, was voted out. 22 voted for him to be Pastor 39 voted for him not to be Pastor. 8 did not vote at all. He was the one of the ones who told the results of the vote. He now claims it was an illegal vote..remember he called for the vote and agreed to the terms of the vote...but, he lost, so now wants another secret vote (by invitation only) and nobody not invited can be on the property. Also, they have sent letters to people that dared to disagree with them and said they are no longer welcome and not to come back on the Church property. I was one of these and have been a member since 1990. The letter at the top list our deceased Pastor as the Pastor. The only member of The Trustee Board who was opposed to him being Pastor was put off the Board and told his voting rights were terminated. It was a vote where we were given slips of paper told to write yes if we wanted him for Pastor or No if we didn't and told to sign our names, which we did, they kept those pieces of paper and now everyone that voted against are not being invited to vote. Does this sound like a man you'd want for a Pastor, in two and a half months him and his cohorts have destroyed a Church that the last Pastor spent 55 years building. People are leaving and hoping to find a Church they can call home.
BroJoe
07-12-2012, 04:42 PM
you read the entire thread? :spit
More like skimmed through it. Caught enough of the topic to know it's all gossip.
StillStanding
07-12-2012, 06:04 PM
As a member of the Church, let me say a few things. The deceased Pastor did tell the Church that he was leaving his assistant Pastor as the Pastor, the congregation said No, but he insisted, he was so sick that we left it alone so as not to cause him undo alarm. The assistant Pastor called for a vote May 6, agreed that all members could vote, was voted out. 22 voted for him to be Pastor 39 voted for him not to be Pastor. 8 did not vote at all. He was the one of the ones who told the results of the vote. He now claims it was an illegal vote..remember he called for the vote and agreed to the terms of the vote...but, he lost, so now wants another secret vote (by invitation only) and nobody not invited can be on the property. Also, they have sent letters to people that dared to disagree with them and said they are no longer welcome and not to come back on the Church property. I was one of these and have been a member since 1990. The letter at the top list our deceased Pastor as the Pastor. The only member of The Trustee Board who was opposed to him being Pastor was put off the Board and told his voting rights were terminated. It was a vote where we were given slips of paper told to write yes if we wanted him for Pastor or No if we didn't and told to sign our names, which we did, they kept those pieces of paper and now everyone that voted against are not being invited to vote. Does this sound like a man you'd want for a Pastor, in two and a half months him and his cohorts have destroyed a Church that the last Pastor spent 55 years building. People are leaving and hoping to find a Church they can call home.
Thanks for the clarification! I stand corrected on a few points.
AreYouReady?
07-12-2012, 06:17 PM
As a member of the Church, let me say a few things. The deceased Pastor did tell the Church that he was leaving his assistant Pastor as the Pastor, the congregation said No, but he insisted, he was so sick that we left it alone so as not to cause him undo alarm. The assistant Pastor called for a vote May 6, agreed that all members could vote, was voted out. 22 voted for him to be Pastor 39 voted for him not to be Pastor. 8 did not vote at all. He was the one of the ones who told the results of the vote. He now claims it was an illegal vote..remember he called for the vote and agreed to the terms of the vote...but, he lost, so now wants another secret vote (by invitation only) and nobody not invited can be on the property. Also, they have sent letters to people that dared to disagree with them and said they are no longer welcome and not to come back on the Church property. I was one of these and have been a member since 1990. The letter at the top list our deceased Pastor as the Pastor. The only member of The Trustee Board who was opposed to him being Pastor was put off the Board and told his voting rights were terminated. It was a vote where we were given slips of paper told to write yes if we wanted him for Pastor or No if we didn't and told to sign our names, which we did, they kept those pieces of paper and now everyone that voted against are not being invited to vote. Does this sound like a man you'd want for a Pastor, in two and a half months him and his cohorts have destroyed a Church that the last Pastor spent 55 years building. People are leaving and hoping to find a Church they can call home.
It does clarify what is happening. All I can say is that it sounds like the rules are being made up as they go and that the vote was compromised from the beginning. Names were not needed in a vote for a pastor.
I am so sorry that you all have to go through this.
Dadofmykids
07-12-2012, 06:33 PM
Dear friends,
I am sorry to those who have been so deeply hurt by the actions of Bishop's daughter and her boyfriend, I mean, new pastor. Really I am.
Many of you have emotional ties to the Church, like me. However, I want to encourage you all to leave those people to their own demise. The Church is world-wide, not embodied in one congregation. You know that already, but you aren't acting like it. If our Lord wants to fix it, he will. Move on.
Shame on all you who anonymously gossip in this thread. Especially Mr. Steinway. Why the secrecy? What good have you done? What hope have you given?
Let's all pray for this pitiful situation, then in faith, forget about it.
God bless you all,
Andy Brasfield
Former member of the Church, 1981-1987.
Admin
07-12-2012, 06:55 PM
Specific names are not to be used in this thread for privacy issues.
Dadofmykids
07-12-2012, 07:13 PM
Dear admin,
I disagree with you. You should have left the names in my post.
You are propagating gossip rather than Gospel.
Shame on you, too!
Andy
StillStanding
07-12-2012, 07:29 PM
Dear admin,
I disagree with you. You should have left the names in my post.
You are propagating gossip rather than Gospel.
Shame on you, too!
Andy
Sir, you don't know me and I don't know who you are. You did however throw out the name of an innocent pastor who I'm sure has no idea about this thread! Why did you feel the need to do that?
I wanted to tell the story for all of those saints that are being disenfranchised and bullied. You obviously have a problem with that. That's OK. Be angry with me and leave the innocent out of the conversation please. Thank you!
rgcraig
07-12-2012, 07:30 PM
Dear admin,
I disagree with you. You should have left the names in my post.
You are propagating gossip rather than Gospel.
Shame on you, too!
Andy
Keeping names anonymous doesn't make it gossip.
AreYouReady?
07-12-2012, 07:34 PM
Continued secrecy of abuse in institutions is what propagates abuse.
All who post here must abide by forum rules whether we agree or disagree. The rules are not grevious.
Praxeas
07-12-2012, 07:40 PM
Keeping names anonymous doesn't make it gossip.nor does dropping names make it gospel rofl...what a winner we got here
HeavenBound
07-12-2012, 07:46 PM
Keeping names anonymous doesn't make it gossip.
I've always said don't write it if you're not willing to sign your name to it. My name is Betty Meeks, I don't gossip. If I say or write it, I believe it to be true.
Praxeas
07-12-2012, 07:48 PM
Here is a fellow that came to confirm the gossip as TRUE. Well done!
Dadofmykids
07-12-2012, 07:52 PM
StillStanding,
My apologies to Dennis if he indeed is not you..
I still wonder why you hide behind your computer screen. Respectfully, I asked that you reveal your identity and clarify your intent to heal the hurting.
God bless you all,
Andy.
rgcraig
07-12-2012, 07:55 PM
StillStanding,
My apologies to Dennis if he indeed is not you..
I still wonder why you hide behind your computer screen. Respectfully, I asked that you reveal your identity and clarify your intent to heal the hurting.
God bless you all,
Andy.
Andy,
Why is it important to you who they are? They have the right to remain anonymous.
RandyWayne
07-12-2012, 07:58 PM
I'm Batman
rgcraig
07-12-2012, 08:00 PM
I'm Batman
Bruce, you didn't have to reveal that!
AreYouReady?
07-12-2012, 08:07 PM
Bahahaha!
Praxeas
07-12-2012, 08:14 PM
StillStanding,
My apologies to Dennis if he indeed is not you..
I still wonder why you hide behind your computer screen. Respectfully, I asked that you reveal your identity and clarify your intent to heal the hurting.
God bless you all,
Andy.
are you saying what he posted is not true?
Dadofmykids
07-12-2012, 08:16 PM
Andy,
Why is it important to you who they are? They have the right to remain anonymous.
I don't care who they are. I am calling them out for gossip - making a point. This thread is getting a lot of attention in the apostolic community both online and off. I hope that we can turn this to help and hope.
I agree with Betty who said if its worth writing, it's worth signing your name.
rgcraig
07-12-2012, 08:20 PM
I don't care who they are. I am calling them out for gossip - making a point. This thread is getting a lot of attention in the apostolic community both online and off. I hope that we can turn this to help and hope.
I agree with Betty who said if its worth writing, it's worth signing your name.
It needs a lot of attention in the apostolic community!
KeptByTheWord
07-12-2012, 08:22 PM
I hope that we can turn this to help and hope.
I believe this was entirely the reason behind the original post - to get the word out there that this mess is taking place, and hopefully it won't be shoved under the carpet, but dealt with in a way that will bring healing to a hurting group of people.
Dadofmykids
07-12-2012, 08:23 PM
are you saying what he posted is not true?
Not at all. Go back to the original post at the very beginning of this thread. There was no plea for prayer, no offer for help or support. It's gossip.
That is what I am saying.
Praxeas
07-12-2012, 08:24 PM
I don't care who they are. I am calling them out for gossip - making a point. This thread is getting a lot of attention in the apostolic community both online and off. I hope that we can turn this to help and hope.
I agree with Betty who said if its worth writing, it's worth signing your name.
If you are sincere and you want this to be about help, why are you being so belligerent?
What difference does it make if this person says their names? How is that help or hope? It sounds more like you are trying to pick a fight
Praxeas
07-12-2012, 08:26 PM
Not at all. Go back to the original post at the very beginning of this thread. There was no plea for prayer, no offer for help or support. It's gossip.
That is what I am saying.
Then why don't YOU make a plea for prayer, help and support and get off the man's back?
And the irony is you came on and posted information yourself and dropped names...How is that not gossip???? You did the same thing!
rgcraig
07-12-2012, 08:28 PM
Not at all. Go back to the original post at the very beginning of this thread. There was no plea for prayer, no offer for help or support. It's gossip.
That is what I am saying.
That's not all you're saying. You seem to be a part of the gossip by saying something about the bishop's daughter and her "boyfriend/pastor". If you read further you will see many are concerned and are offering prayers!
Praxeas
07-12-2012, 08:33 PM
Prayers going up!
Yes he DID ask for prayers
As a member of the Church, let me say a few things. The deceased Pastor did tell the Church that he was leaving his assistant Pastor as the Pastor, the congregation said No, but he insisted, he was so sick that we left it alone so as not to cause him undo alarm. The assistant Pastor called for a vote May 6, agreed that all members could vote, was voted out. 22 voted for him to be Pastor 39 voted for him not to be Pastor. 8 did not vote at all. He was the one of the ones who told the results of the vote. He now claims it was an illegal vote..remember he called for the vote and agreed to the terms of the vote...but, he lost, so now wants another secret vote (by invitation only) and nobody not invited can be on the property. Also, they have sent letters to people that dared to disagree with them and said they are no longer welcome and not to come back on the Church property. I was one of these and have been a member since 1990. The letter at the top list our deceased Pastor as the Pastor. The only member of The Trustee Board who was opposed to him being Pastor was put off the Board and told his voting rights were terminated. It was a vote where we were given slips of paper told to write yes if we wanted him for Pastor or No if we didn't and told to sign our names, which we did, they kept those pieces of paper and now everyone that voted against are not being invited to vote. Does this sound like a man you'd want for a Pastor, in two and a half months him and his cohorts have destroyed a Church that the last Pastor spent 55 years building. People are leaving and hoping to find a Church they can call home.
Was THIS gossip too Mr Dadofmykids???
Dear friends,
I am sorry to those who have been so deeply hurt by the actions of Bishop's daughter and her boyfriend, I mean, new pastor. Really I am.
Many of you have emotional ties to the Church, like me. However, I want to encourage you all to leave those people to their own demise. The Church is world-wide, not embodied in one congregation. You know that already, but you aren't acting like it. If our Lord wants to fix it, he will. Move on.
Shame on all you who anonymously gossip in this thread. Especially Mr. Steinway. Why the secrecy? What good have you done? What hope have you given?
Let's all pray for this pitiful situation, then in faith, forget about it.
God bless you all,
Andy Brasfield
Former member of the Church, 1981-1987.
Or THIS? It seems Andy is OK with Gossiping as long as a name is attached. What difference does it make Andy?
Dear admin,
I disagree with you. You should have left the names in my post.
You are propagating gossip rather than Gospel.
Shame on you, too!
Andy
Not attaching a name does not make something gossip and attaching a name not gossip.
Not at all. Go back to the original post at the very beginning of this thread. There was no plea for prayer, no offer for help or support. It's gossip.
That is what I am saying.
That is NOT what you are saying. Andy perhaps you just are not sure. You made it seem as though the issue was gossip, then it was gossiping anonymously now you say the real issue is no plea for prayer or offer for help or support?
Andy may I suggest perhaps you are hurt and angry and your attacks on MrSteinway are misguided? You don't really seem to know what the problem is
Praxeas
07-12-2012, 08:33 PM
That's not all you're saying. You seem to be a part of the gossip by saying something about the bishop's daughter and her "boyfriend/pastor". If you read further you will see many are concerned and are offering prayers!
BINGO but it's the good kind of gossip because he signed his name :heeheehee
For you new posters who seem to have a hard time comprehending some things, names were used in the orignial post and us admins deleted them and said that the situation could be discussed as a general situation because it is a situation that is not new in Pentecost and needs to be discussed.
If an elderly pastor or saints or board members of a church with an elderly pastor read of this situation it might prompt them to take steps to make sure this does not happen in their church.
The purpose of removing the location and names was to remove personalities from it and specific people. To discuss the situation not the people. I have no idea how your logic makes you think this is gossip.
The originator of this thread has family members in this church. He is not speculating or gossiping about the fundamental facts in the case. Current church members have posted confirming the situation.
Hate to tell you this but sometimes ugly things happen in churches and that does not make them gossip. Just because you don't want to hear about a bad situation does not make it gossip.
Cindy
07-12-2012, 08:46 PM
Everybody and their dog knows who I am...........And I don't gossip!!
Cindy
07-12-2012, 08:47 PM
For you new posters who seem to have a hard time comprehending some things, names were used in the orignial post and us admins deleted them and said that the situation could be discussed as a general situation because it is a situation that is not new in Pentecost and needs to be discussed.
If an elderly pastor or saints or board members of a church with an elderly pastor read of this situation it might prompt them to take steps to make sure this does not happen in their church.
The purpose of removing the location and names was to remove personalities from it and specific people. To discuss the situation not the people. I have no idea how your logic makes you think this is gossip.
The originator of this thread has family members in this church. He is not speculating or gossiping about the fundamental facts in the case. Current church members have posted confirming the situation.
Hate to tell you this but sometimes ugly things happen in churches and that does not make them gossip. Just because you don't want to hear about a bad situation does not make it gossip.
:thumbsup
Steve Epley
07-12-2012, 09:03 PM
For those who are just posting anew on this thread and do not understand forum life it is the choice of the poster to use a moniker or their name. I have always used my name that is my choice. I have respected those who have used monikers that is their choice. I assure you Steinway is a reputable man of character and is concerned about this matter. He was raised in the city named.
He is NOT a slanderer nor rumormonger. He and I disagree on most points on this forum. I personally have prayed and am praying about the situation y'all folks are in. I truly feel for you.
Cindy
07-12-2012, 09:07 PM
For those who are just posting anew on this thread and do not understand forum life it is the choice of the poster to use a moniker or their name. I have always used my name that is my choice. I have respected those who have used monikers that is their choice. I assure you Steinway is a reputable man of character and is concerned about this matter. He was raised in the city named.
He is NOT a slanderer nor rumormonger. He and I disagree on most points on this forum. I personally have prayed and am praying about the situation y'all folks are in. I truly feel for you.
We love you, Elder. :thumbsup :yourock
Prayers going up!
Nice feet, dude!
Cindy
07-12-2012, 09:13 PM
This thread has made me more compassionate. And truly understanding ILG better now. It really makes me angry that y'all went through that meanness, and the uncaring attitude y'all received from the District.
StillStanding
07-12-2012, 09:16 PM
Nice feet, dude!
:thumbsup
BroJoe
07-12-2012, 09:19 PM
For you new posters who seem to have a hard time comprehending some things, names were used in the orignial post and us admins deleted them and said that the situation could be discussed as a general situation because it is a situation that is not new in Pentecost and needs to be discussed.
If an elderly pastor or saints or board members of a church with an elderly pastor read of this situation it might prompt them to take steps to make sure this does not happen in their church.
The purpose of removing the location and names was to remove personalities from it and specific people. To discuss the situation not the people. I have no idea how your logic makes you think this is gossip.
The originator of this thread has family members in this church. He is not speculating or gossiping about the fundamental facts in the case. Current church members have posted confirming the situation.
Hate to tell you this but sometimes ugly things happen in churches and that does not make them gossip. Just because you don't want to hear about a bad situation does not make it gossip.
Gossip: idle talk or rumor, especially about the personal or private affairs of others
I could be wrong, but I don't see anyone on this thread that are intimately involved with this situation.
If you're not involved with the situation, all your comments are based upon rumors. Therefore. Gossip.
Furthermore, these comments are being made specifically to those who have called out names and places, yet are no longer apart of the congregation nor apparent issues.
Gos bless.
This thread has made me more compassionate. And truly understanding ILG better now. It really makes me angry that y'all went through that meanness, and the uncaring attitude y'all received from the District.
Thanks Cindy. I hope this church gets some healing but only the district or people with some power can help. To the rest, I think it's best to move on, sadly. It is just a building and power struggles can be horrible.
Margies3
07-12-2012, 09:22 PM
This thread has made me more compassionate. And truly understanding ILG better now. It really makes me angry that y'all went through that meanness, and the uncaring attitude y'all received from the District.
:thumbsup yep, me too!
And, our church as been without a pastor almost 2 years now ever. I'm on the Board and we are very concerned about this situation. But I'd much rather be in OUR situation than to be in the middle of the mess that these poor people are dealing with! On the other hand, I can't see that daughter getting away with this at our church because we have some very strong personalities who would be moving HER on instead of her moving us on. Why don't these people do that at this church??
AreYouReady?
07-12-2012, 09:23 PM
Yes Cindy I agree wholeheartedly.
Honking horns at 3 am and vandalism to another person's vehicle is criminal and not Christian. Not to mention lawsuits directed at the wrong people and the district not having a fair and impartial inquiry into the matter. It smacks of favoritism and injustice.
True stories are not gossiping. They are someone's account of what happened to them while they placed a measure of trust in what is touted as elders and presbyter overseers. When that trust is betrayed, a simple "get over it" will never get it.
Cindy
07-12-2012, 09:24 PM
:thumbsup yep, me too!
And, our church as been without a pastor almost 2 years now ever. I'm on the Board and we are very concerned about this situation. But I'd much rather be in OUR situation than to be in the middle of the mess that these poor people are dealing with! On the other hand, I can't see that daughter getting away with this at our church because we have some very strong personalities who would be moving HER on instead of her moving us on. Why don't these people do that at this church??
I have no idea my friend, it just makes me sad.
AreYouReady?
07-12-2012, 09:25 PM
:thumbsup yep, me too!
Why don't these people do that at this church??
I wondered that myself? Who gave this woman all this authority?
Notify the IRS. That will stop the hanky panky in a heart beat.
Some of you may be familiar with this situation involving a pastor who recently passed away. He was a strong leader and didn't have a board. All decisions and finances were handled by him and his family. His daughter handled the finances of the church, some of which were invested to buy rental homes for extra income.
The pastor didn't have a successor in place as he held all power until he passed, even though he could hardly speak or walk in his final months. When he became incapacitated, his daughter held full power.
Well...a church vote was held for the daughter's choice to be pastor, and he was voted down. Last week she sent certified letters to all the families that weren't in agreement with her (a majority), and told them they were no longer welcome and were no longer considered members of the church. She essentially kicked them out of the church!
IMO, her strategy is to have another vote with the remaining families that voted with her! How sad to manipulate a good group of people to get what you want!
Anyway, last week she decided to give herself a $200 a week raise as church manager. She didn't need to ask for permission as she has absolute power to do as she pleases.
I hate to see what was once a great influential Apostolic church decline to this type of behavior and power struggle! A truly sad story of how absolute power can absolutely corrupt! This happens even in an Acts 2:38, Oneness, strict standards type church.
FYI, my wife was raised in this church and her aunt still attends there. The church is no longer tied to any Apostolic organization, so there in nobody to help them get thru this problem. Other pastors that were close friends to the church are afraid to get in the middle of this church fight!
Sarah
07-13-2012, 07:36 AM
If saints of God would only pray and seek the face of God when it comes time to elect a new pastor, we wouldn't have this problem. After all, God is not the author of confusion. We might sometimes be surprised who God might chose to be the leader over His people!
Sometimes I think that maybe we should be like the Methodists and other organizations....let them send pastors from those in authority. Isn't that what Paul did?
Even then, I'm sure a few 'lemons' would slip through.
If saints of God would only pray and seek the face of God when it comes time to elect a new pastor, we wouldn't have this problem. After all, God is not the author of confusion. We might sometimes be surprised who God might chose to be the leader over His people!
Sometimes I think that maybe we should be like the Methodists and other organizations....let them send pastors from those in authority. Isn't that what Paul did?
Even then, I'm sure a few 'lemons' would slip through.
Uh.....did you read the thread? They did pray and have a vote. The daughter's candidate for pastor was voted down. That vote was not honored. Instead enough of the ones voting against him were sent letters by the daughter kicking them out of the church so that when they hold a second vote he is assured to be elected!
So the element of the saints seeking Gods will, etc has been taken out of the equkation by the actions of the daughter.
Steve Epley
07-13-2012, 07:58 AM
If saints of God would only pray and seek the face of God when it comes time to elect a new pastor, we wouldn't have this problem. After all, God is not the author of confusion. We might sometimes be surprised who God might chose to be the leader over His people!
Sometimes I think that maybe we should be like the Methodists and other organizations....let them send pastors from those in authority. Isn't that what Paul did?
Even then, I'm sure a few 'lemons' would slip through.
The Methodist aren't related to Paul.:heeheehee Paul was an Apostle not an elected official of some man made org. just saying........................
It seems clear that this pastor's posterity and legacy in the ministry will be carried on by his sons ministries in other cities.
The only consoliation is that this church has been going down for some time due to the pastors health, etc so instead of the daughter blowing up a church with 300 people involved she is blowing up a church of less than a 100 people with many of them elderly.
I believe many of the younger members and families in the church had left over the past few years. I am sure the decison to do so has been reinforiced by these shenanigans.
All of us human beings are flawed and we have to look at situations like these with two things in mind;
First to learn from the situation and make sure we or loved ones are not in a situation that could end up like this.
Secondly to remember that we are all human beings and flawed. We should not let errors in judgement in setting up a succession plan,etc in the latter years of this pastors life take away from the many great things looking at the entire body of his ministry on earth. That does not excuse mistakes but it puts them in context.
Sometimes I think that maybe we should be like the Methodists and other organizations....let them send pastors from those in authority. Isn't that what Paul did?
I had an uncle, deceased now, who was a Methodist in a small church in a small town. He very sincerely told me one day many years ago that they changed pastors every two or three years (I forget which) because if a pastor stayed any longer than that they got to know too much about you! LOL!!!
Titus2woman
07-13-2012, 08:17 AM
I am greatly saddened and praying for these people.
HeavenBound
07-13-2012, 09:24 AM
:thumbsup yep, me too!
And, our church as been without a pastor almost 2 years now ever. I'm on the Board and we are very concerned about this situation. But I'd much rather be in OUR situation than to be in the middle of the mess that these poor people are dealing with! On the other hand, I can't see that daughter getting away with this at our church because we have some very strong personalities who would be moving HER on instead of her moving us on. Why don't these people do that at this church??
If you have a suggestion on how to get the daughter and the self appointed Pastor and his appointed Trustee Board to leave without resorting to violence please tell us how. I call him self-appointed now because he was voted out but refuses to step down.
Amanah
07-13-2012, 09:25 AM
If you have a suggestion on how to get the daughter and the self appointed Pastor and his appointed Trustee Board to leave without resorting to violence please tell us how. I call him self-appointed now because he was voted out but refuses to step down.
boycott them, don't attend, don't pay them.
rgcraig
07-13-2012, 09:27 AM
boycott them, don't attend, don't pay them.
That's one way.
HeavenBound
07-13-2012, 09:28 AM
I am greatly saddened and praying for these people.
TY, all prayers are welcome. I appeal to all reading these remarks to please pray for our congregation it is a sad day when this happens to a Church of this caliber.
AreYouReady?
07-13-2012, 09:33 AM
If you have a suggestion on how to get the daughter and the self appointed Pastor and his appointed Trustee Board to leave without resorting to violence please tell us how. I call him self-appointed now because he was voted out but refuses to step down.
My only suggestion is to quit contributing for expenses. I don't see how a church with 70 members can afford to pay someone $50,000 anyway, plus pay a tithe to the pastor, plus pay expenses. She will have to live off the rental property income and pay the bills out of that income if people quit contributing to something they feel is not of God.
bishoph
07-13-2012, 09:36 AM
If you have a suggestion on how to get the daughter and the self appointed Pastor and his appointed Trustee Board to leave without resorting to violence please tell us how. I call him self-appointed now because he was voted out but refuses to step down.
PM coming
AreYouReady?
07-13-2012, 09:38 AM
TY, all prayers are welcome. I appeal to all reading these remarks to please pray for our congregation it is a sad day when this happens to a Church of this caliber.
I agree H-B. I remember Brother ***** when he came to our church for revival. We loved his songs and preaching.
Although we no longer attend a Oneness church, the Apostle's doctrine will always be in our hearts. It's who we are. It is hard to see things like this happen even when we do not attend. I hope it can be resolved quickly.
StillStanding
07-13-2012, 09:42 AM
My reason for starting this thread was not to start gossip. It is perceived as such by some, and for those people I apologize.
My reason was to give a voice to the disenfranchised and bullied in a church situation that I believe to be a travesty. I have nothing personal to gain, but there's a lot I could lose. (friendships) That is why I choose to remain anonymous.
The only way that I saw to combat the powers that be, was to bring shame and perhaps political pressure from the outside. The church may go on as orchestrated, but at least I didn't stay silent while watching the church go up in flames.
I apologize for a couple of wrong assumptions:
1. The church has no board. The church has a Trustee board in place. Trustees are guardians of the church's assets. This means that all the church's properties may not be in the former pastor's name as was told to me.
2. No succession plan was in place. We were told by a member that it was the former pastor's wishes for the local pastor to take over as pastor. For one reason or another, the majority of church members were not receptive to this choice.
The motivation from current leadership is getting clearer to me. This local preacher was given the mantle from the former pastor, and the rebellious and gossiping members voted him down! They sincerely believe he is God's choice, and they will go to any and all means to accomplish what they feel is God's plan for the church. It's really amazing to see the lengths they have gone by sending certified letters to those who voted against the local preacher, telling them that they are no longer members of the church and they aren't welcomed back! They will soon have an "invitation only" church vote, and it appears that the cards are stacked.
Please help me pray for this church. A lot of people are hurting and it's a very emotional time for them. God bless!
Truthseeker
07-13-2012, 09:54 AM
boycott them, don't attend, don't pay them.
Money or no money changes things. :)
Margies3
07-13-2012, 10:13 AM
I had an uncle, deceased now, who was a Methodist in a small church in a small town. He very sincerely told me one day many years ago that they changed pastors every two or three years (I forget which) because if a pastor stayed any longer than that they got to know too much about you! LOL!!!
My husband grew up in a Methodist Church and we attended together for about 20 years. In this church, pastors typically stay for an average of 5-7 years. It all depends on the District Supt. and how they operate. We left this church because of the pastor about 8 or 9 years ago. The DS had brought someone in who was the worst pastor I have ever dealt with and then refused to move him out. When he came the church was running over 300. When he left 6 years later, the church is down to about 40 very elderly people.
As far as how to get the pastor out of the church we are discussing, my suggestions include:
1) Hold all tithes and offerings. Each person can put their money in a bank account of their own and then when the situation gets resolved, the money would be available to bail out the mess that will obviously happen when the church doesn't have the income it is accustomed to having. But don't give anything until the situation is resolved.
2) nothing says you have to stay for the sermon. When he gets up to preach, get up and leave.
3) I would suggest that the people hold onto all the positions they currently hold in the church and even try to get other positions. And then, dig your heals in. Do the things they way they SHOULD be done - legal and above-board, with excellence! Do it as unto the Lord and don't let this pastor or the daughter ram over-top of you. Make sure you have a strong backbone! It's gonna take one. Do NOT let this pastor or the daughter run things. Run things as a democracy - not a dictatorship.
That's the best I can think of. Praying for all of those involved. I understand how hard it is to be involved in a mess like this in a church. Been there, done that. :(
Margies3
07-13-2012, 10:15 AM
The other suggestion I would have is to find out who is above this man and implore them to help you! Lay out the facts like they've been laid out here. Surely anyone who has a lick of spiritual sense would be able to see what's happened and what's needed!
RandyWayne
07-13-2012, 10:22 AM
My husband grew up in a Methodist Church and we attended together for about 20 years. In this church, pastors typically stay for an average of 5-7 years. It all depends on the District Supt. and how they operate. We left this church because of the pastor about 8 or 9 years ago. The DS had brought someone in who was the worst pastor I have ever dealt with and then refused to move him out. When he came the church was running over 300. When he left 6 years later, the church is down to about 40 very elderly people.
As far as how to get the pastor out of the church we are discussing, my suggestions include:
1) Hold all tithes and offerings. Each person can put their money in a bank account of their own and then when the situation gets resolved, the money would be available to bail out the mess that will obviously happen when the church doesn't have the income it is accustomed to having. But don't give anything until the situation is resolved.
2) nothing says you have to stay for the sermon. When he gets up to preach, get up and leave.
3) I would suggest that the people hold onto all the positions they currently hold in the church and even try to get other positions. And then, dig your heals in. Do the things they way they SHOULD be done - legal and above-board, with excellence! Do it as unto the Lord and don't let this pastor or the daughter ram over-top of you. Make sure you have a strong backbone! It's gonna take one. Do NOT let this pastor or the daughter run things. Run things as a democracy - not a dictatorship.
That's the best I can think of. Praying for all of those involved. I understand how hard it is to be involved in a mess like this in a church. Been there, done that. :(
Along these lines, I've found that relentless heckling from the audience also gets the job done in short order. Watching some old stand up footage of Don Rickles should give anyone great material to get started.
KeptByTheWord
07-13-2012, 10:31 AM
My husband grew up in a Methodist Church and we attended together for about 20 years. In this church, pastors typically stay for an average of 5-7 years. It all depends on the District Supt. and how they operate. We left this church because of the pastor about 8 or 9 years ago. The DS had brought someone in who was the worst pastor I have ever dealt with and then refused to move him out. When he came the church was running over 300. When he left 6 years later, the church is down to about 40 very elderly people.
As far as how to get the pastor out of the church we are discussing, my suggestions include:
1) Hold all tithes and offerings. Each person can put their money in a bank account of their own and then when the situation gets resolved, the money would be available to bail out the mess that will obviously happen when the church doesn't have the income it is accustomed to having. But don't give anything until the situation is resolved.
2) nothing says you have to stay for the sermon. When he gets up to preach, get up and leave.
3) I would suggest that the people hold onto all the positions they currently hold in the church and even try to get other positions. And then, dig your heals in. Do the things they way they SHOULD be done - legal and above-board, with excellence! Do it as unto the Lord and don't let this pastor or the daughter ram over-top of you. Make sure you have a strong backbone! It's gonna take one. Do NOT let this pastor or the daughter run things. Run things as a democracy - not a dictatorship.
That's the best I can think of. Praying for all of those involved. I understand how hard it is to be involved in a mess like this in a church. Been there, done that. :(
Great suggestions Margie! Praying that the Lord will reign in this situation.
StillStanding
07-13-2012, 11:55 AM
Along these lines, I've found that relentless heckling from the audience also gets the job done in short order. Watching some old stand up footage of Don Rickles should give anyone great material to get started.
Funny response! :heeheehee
Uh.....did you read the thread? They did pray and have a vote. The daughter's candidate for pastor was voted down. That vote was not honored. Instead enough of the ones voting against him were sent letters by the daughter kicking them out of the church so that when they hold a second vote he is assured to be elected!
So the element of the saints seeking Gods will, etc has been taken out of the equkation by the actions of the daughter.
You would think it would just be a whole lot easier for the daughter to have counted the ballots herself and avoided the whole "kicking out" part. ;)
Sarah
07-13-2012, 05:18 PM
Uh.....did you read the thread? They did pray and have a vote. The daughter's candidate for pastor was voted down. That vote was not honored. Instead enough of the ones voting against him were sent letters by the daughter kicking them out of the church so that when they hold a second vote he is assured to be elected!
So the element of the saints seeking Gods will, etc has been taken out of the equkation by the actions of the daughter.
Yes, I did read the thread, CC1. Evidently everyone didn't pray and seek God's will. Namely the daughter! You're going to always have those who are troublemakers....and don't seek God. Hence the trouble they're going through...
My reason for starting this thread was not to start gossip. It is perceived as such by some, and for those people I apologize.
My reason was to give a voice to the disenfranchised and bullied in a church situation that I believe to be a travesty. I have nothing personal to gain, but there's a lot I could lose. (friendships) That is why I choose to remain anonymous.
The only way that I saw to combat the powers that be, was to bring shame and perhaps political pressure from the outside. The church may go on as orchestrated, but at least I didn't stay silent while watching the church go up in flames.
I apologize for a couple of wrong assumptions:
1. The church has no board. The church has a Trustee board in place. Trustees are guardians of the church's assets. This means that all the church's properties may not be in the former pastor's name as was told to me.
2. No succession plan was in place. We were told by a member that it was the former pastor's wishes for the local pastor to take over as pastor. For one reason or another, the majority of church members were not receptive to this choice.
The motivation from current leadership is getting clearer to me. This local preacher was given the mantle from the former pastor, and the rebellious and gossiping members voted him down! They sincerely believe he is God's choice, and they will go to any and all means to accomplish what they feel is God's plan for the church. It's really amazing to see the lengths they have gone by sending certified letters to those who voted against the local preacher, telling them that they are no longer members of the church and they aren't welcomed back! They will soon have an "invitation only" church vote, and it appears that the cards are stacked.
Please help me pray for this church. A lot of people are hurting and it's a very emotional time for them. God bless!
The picture is becoming clearer. The daughter believes that her father's word (who she feels is the "man of God" whose word is law) is higher than any carnal vote. Apparently.
Along these lines, I've found that relentless heckling from the audience also gets the job done in short order. Watching some old stand up footage of Don Rickles should give anyone great material to get started.
Oh, that made me shudder. We've been on the receiving end of that relentless heckling. :(
I think people should just decide whether to stay and support the current ministry or leave. If 90% of the people leave and if the preacher and the daughter are in it for the money, they will move on.
AreYouReady?
07-13-2012, 08:40 PM
My reason for starting this thread was not to start gossip. It is perceived as such by some, and for those people I apologize.
My reason was to give a voice to the disenfranchised and bullied in a church situation that I believe to be a travesty. I have nothing personal to gain, but there's a lot I could lose. (friendships) That is why I choose to remain anonymous.
The only way that I saw to combat the powers that be, was to bring shame and perhaps political pressure from the outside. The church may go on as orchestrated, but at least I didn't stay silent while watching the church go up in flames.
I apologize for a couple of wrong assumptions:
1. The church has no board. The church has a Trustee board in place. Trustees are guardians of the church's assets. This means that all the church's properties may not be in the former pastor's name as was told to me.
2. No succession plan was in place. We were told by a member that it was the former pastor's wishes for the local pastor to take over as pastor. For one reason or another, the majority of church members were not receptive to this choice.
The motivation from current leadership is getting clearer to me. This local preacher was given the mantle from the former pastor, and the rebellious and gossiping members voted him down! They sincerely believe he is God's choice, and they will go to any and all means to accomplish what they feel is God's plan for the church. It's really amazing to see the lengths they have gone by sending certified letters to those who voted against the local preacher, telling them that they are no longer members of the church and they aren't welcomed back! They will soon have an "invitation only" church vote, and it appears that the cards are stacked.
Please help me pray for this church. A lot of people are hurting and it's a very emotional time for them. God bless!
Stillstanding, it occurred to me that those feet you posted as your avatar is the type of feet that Jesus would wash.
You have received the scorn and criticism of speaking out in this thread, but you did so on behalf of those who are being run over roughshod. Keep the faith. Romans 8:28 is in progress here.
Peace to you brother.
You would think it would just be a whole lot easier for the daughter to have counted the ballots herself and avoided the whole "kicking out" part. ;)
LOL!!! Good point.
Oh, that made me shudder. We've been on the receiving end of that relentless heckling. :(
I have a great heckling story. I was at a UPC revival in London England in 1977. (I don't want to give details of this story because I still have some portion of anonymity on here) and one night a young man and two young women probably in their early 20's showed up for the service.
During the preaching the young man began to heckle the UPC preacher visiting from the United States. Rather than kick the young man out or get angry the preacher (who is a really cool guy)used his sense of humor to respond directly back to the young man in a humorous but kind way.
This went on for a few minutes but eventually the young man shut up. Fast forward years later and after some big UPC meeting in the USA a man came up to this preacher and said "you don't know who I am do you?" To which my preacher friend replied no. The guy went on to say he was that young man who had heckled the preacher in London. He had been so moved by the message and the kind godly way this preacher handled his heckling that not too long after that meeting he gave his life to the Lord and became a Christian. Not an every day occurrence in London I assure you. When we were passing out fliers inviting people to that revival I had never met so many agnostic and atheist people in my life!
RandyWayne
07-13-2012, 09:43 PM
I have a great heckling story. I was at a UPC revival in London England in 1977. (I don't want to give details of this story because I still have some portion of anonymity on here) and one night a young man and two young women probably in their early 20's showed up for the service.
During the preaching the young man began to heckle the UPC preacher visiting from the United States. Rather than kick the young man out or get angry the preacher (who is a really cool guy)used his sense of humor to respond directly back to the young man in a humorous but kind way.
This went on for a few minutes but eventually the young man shut up. Fast forward years later and after some big UPC meeting in the USA a man came up to this preacher and said "you don't know who I am do you?" To which my preacher friend replied no. The guy went on to say he was that young man who had heckled the preacher in London. He had been so moved by the message and the kind godly way this preacher handled his heckling that not too long after that meeting he gave his life to the Lord and became a Christian. Not an every day occurrence in London I assure you. When we were passing out fliers inviting people to that revival I had never met so many agnostic and atheist people in my life!
:thumbsup
Rapture 1
07-14-2012, 11:39 AM
I want everyone to continue to pray for the people of the "wrecked Church". They are in desperate need of prayer. These are spirit feeled, lovely, sweet, mostly older people of God. Pray, not just that they can keep their church, but for the healing of their souls, minds and health. People are saying this is gossip, but I'm telling you, it is the truth. Call some of the faithful warriors in the church and they will tell you. The truth needs to be told, so this can not happen anywhere else. People's souls are at risk, and life is too short, whe never know when our time will come. Some of these saints have been at this church since the beginning, 58 yrs ago, in an old small house. They have raised their children and grandchildren, and lost their husbands there. After working to build the church and going and being faithful all these years, they are told now that they do not have a say in anything. Only the men are allowed to vote, by invitation only, Monday night. Anyone that didn't receive an invitation will not be allowed on the property. Here goes:
The pastor, who everyone loved ,died. He had picked an assistant pastor of his daughter's choice, a good friend of hers. She would not let him put one of his family in. She would remind him that he promised. And, people did
hear this, each time. After he died, she had the church to vote on him as pastor, For several reasons they did not want him. Her, and him had a vote with the members anyway. They had everyone to put their names on the ballot. Even after throwing out some votes by her, he lost. Thy continued on as before. The majority of the people wrote a letter and signed a petition for a very well respected Bishop from MI to come and be the interium pastor. The daughter called him and threatened to sue if he came down. He backed off. Now, they have come up with a solution to put her friend in. They have sent out invitation only to the men to vote. They say they are going by the by-laws written in the 50's when the church was in an organization. One of the laws, are that the secretary has to be man. The daughter isn't a man, and has handled the books, and money, after leaving her job as RN many,many years ago.
Some of the members that have spoken out, have been sent letters informing them they are no longer allowed to be on the property. Some because they got up and left when a preacher was chastizing them. There are 4 members on the board. The board was appointed by the late pastor, never voted on by the church. The one trying to get voted on for pastor is on the board. One of the other, admits he has never had the Holy Ghost. No preacher will come in and take up for the saints. They say they don't want to get involved.
Like I said, they are heart broken, but are planning on leaving there, because of the leadership. They are going for the last time tomorrow. We need your prayers for strength. The bible says "In the last days the love of many will wax cold", and thats why they will treat the saints like they do.
I want everyone to continue to pray for the people of the "wrecked Church". They are in desperate need of prayer. These are spirit feeled, lovely, sweet, mostly older people of God. Pray, not just that they can keep their church, but for the healing of their souls, minds and health. People are saying this is gossip, but I'm telling you, it is the truth. Call some of the faithful warriors in the church and they will tell you. The truth needs to be told, so this can not happen anywhere else. People's souls are at risk, and life is too short, whe never know when our time will come. Some of these saints have been at this church since the beginning, 58 yrs ago, in an old small house. They have raised their children and grandchildren, and lost their husbands there. After working to build the church and going and being faithful all these years, they are told now that they do not have a say in anything. Only the men are allowed to vote, by invitation only, Monday night. Anyone that didn't receive an invitation will not be allowed on the property. Here goes:
The pastor, who everyone loved ,died. He had picked an assistant pastor of his daughter's choice, a good friend of hers. She would not let him put one of his family in. She would remind him that he promised. And, people did
hear this, each time. After he died, she had the church to vote on him as pastor, For several reasons they did not want him. Her, and him had a vote with the members anyway. They had everyone to put their names on the ballot. Even after throwing out some votes by her, he lost. Thy continued on as before. The majority of the people wrote a letter and signed a petition for a very well respected Bishop from MI to come and be the interium pastor. The daughter called him and threatened to sue if he came down. He backed off. Now, they have come up with a solution to put her friend in. They have sent out invitation only to the men to vote. They say they are going by the by-laws written in the 50's when the church was in an organization. One of the laws, are that the secretary has to be man. The daughter isn't a man, and has handled the books, and money, after leaving her job as RN many,many years ago.
Some of the members that have spoken out, have been sent letters informing them they are no longer allowed to be on the property. Some because they got up and left when a preacher was chastizing them. There are 4 members on the board. The board was appointed by the late pastor, never voted on by the church. The one trying to get voted on for pastor is on the board. One of the other, admits he has never had the Holy Ghost. No preacher will come in and take up for the saints. They say they don't want to get involved.
Like I said, they are heart broken, but are planning on leaving there, because of the leadership. They are going for the last time tomorrow. We need your prayers for strength. The bible says "In the last days the love of many will wax cold", and thats why they will treat the saints like they do.
We will continue to pray for the saints in this church. I know it is easier said than done after you have invested many years in a particular church but the important thing is for them to keep their eyes on Christ and his work. Church buildings will pass away but God and His work will not. They will find a church home where they will be able to worship God in peace and without strife.
Rapture 1
07-14-2012, 01:31 PM
The former late pastor did not give the mantle to the "local" preacher. The late pastor had been sick for quiet some time, some dementia even. This was his daughter's choice. He even said to the members that he did not think ***** was able to pastor a church. But, he always did what his daughter wanted.
I know this is none of my business but what organization was this church in when it had those bylaws? If the bylaws are still valid and the person (daughter) who has taken over and is running things now is in violation of those bylaws, and there is now no higher organizational level they can appeal to, this may have to go into a secular court. People who have invested time and money in that building have something coming to them. If they are split into two groups, one group may have to buy the other out in order to retain use of the building. This may have gone as far as it can without outside legal intervention.
We had a situation here in Cincinnati with an ALJC church where one member asked to see the books. He wanted to know what some of the salaries were. When he requested this he was disfellowshipped and then told he could not see the books because he was no longer a member. He wound up going to court and the church had to give him he information he requested.
A church in a nearby city had a split over doctrine. Branhamism came in and some accepted it and some did not. It wound up going to civil court. One group got to keep the building but they had to pay the other group for their equity in the building.
I know this is going before secular courts but we're already involved with secular law the way we are organized with tax exempt status, etc.
Steve Epley
07-14-2012, 03:33 PM
I know this is none of my business but what organization was this church in when it had those bylaws? If the bylaws are still valid and the person (daughter) who has taken over and is running things now is in violation of those bylaws, and there is now no higher organizational level they can appeal to, this may have to go into a secular court. People who have invested time and money in that building have something coming to them. If they are split into two groups, one group may have to buy the other out in order to retain use of the building. This may have gone as far as it can without outside legal intervention.
We had a situation here in Cincinnati with an ALJC church where one member asked to see the books. He wanted to know what some of the salaries were. When he requested this he was disfellowshipped and then told he could not see the books because he was no longer a member. He wound up going to court and the church had to give him he information he requested.
A church in a nearby city had a split over doctrine. Branhamism came in and some accepted it and some did not. It wound up going to civil court. One group got to keep the building but they had to pay the other group for their equity in the building.
I know this is going before secular courts but we're already involved with secular law the way we are organized with tax exempt status, etc.
This was an ALJC church which has great latitude on internal local church policy. Really more of a minister's fellowship than church organization. I would think the the org would have no legal standing in the matter? I was hoping some fellow ministers friends of the former pastor could have some influence but it looks doubtful to what I am reading. My suggestion though it is painful find another home. This is horrible long standing members have to do that but sometimes things are take out of our control just ask Steinway who has been faithful for years but had no choice but to leave his church?
Rapture 1
07-14-2012, 03:42 PM
They were in the ALJC for many years. The members didn't know they were out of it until shortly before the pastor died. A lawyer said the by-laws where not worth the paper they are written on. He also said everything "they are doing is illegal". This lawyer is a very well known and very busy lawyer, and is out of town a lot. He can't take the case, because he has left to go to WA, for some time, and we need someone now. Talking with another one, but you have to have a certain kind of lawyer.
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