No Heaven Or Hell After Death?

[Blackxeas]

Hello All,

It has been around two years that I began studying the subject of “what after death?” At first, I became confused and concerned after reading and studying a few passages. Were they teaching me incorrectly from my upbringing? I have concluded accepting whatever waits at life’s end.


I would like to share a few ideas and would be interested in reading your input. However, I am only interested in serious answers, as I have seen many jokers here. I was taught that we immediately enter heaven after death, but there were a few biblical scriptures that had me reevaluating those teachings.
I will start by giving a few examples, followed with one or two questions.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16)….and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

We read within these scriptures, those whom are alive at Christ’ return will not precede (come before) those who are asleep (dead) to be with God. That does not mean those who are dead have gone to heaven before those who are alive. The scripture states that those alive will not precede those who are dead, but because the dead will rise first. The dead in Christ will rise first, and then the alive will rise in the air. Would you agree?



Now, let’s talk about:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51)Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
52)in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Take note in verse 52 and 53, the dead “will be changed” for purposes of becoming immortal (never dying: to have eternal life). The bible reads that we shall receive immortal bodies at the sound of the last trumpet. The scripture clearly interprets the dead being asleep until Christ returns. God then resurrects the dead, changes them by giving them an immortal body, and then takes us all to heaven. How can a dead saint be immortal and enter heaven when they haven’t received their immortal body?

Also, take into consideration,

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul”


The scripture reads that God formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathes into him the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Take notice, it was not until God’s breath and Earth’s dust united that Adam became a living soul.

Is it logical to state that the breath can’t exist without the dust, or the dust without the breath? Is it correct to assume that we are only a living conscious while possessing the breath of life? Would that conclude that there is no consciousness after death (e.g. heaven, etc.)?

The bible does read in Ecclesiastes 12:7, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I also know that Paul states in 2 Corinthians 5:8,

2 Corinthians 5:8
“We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”

Being absent from the body and present with the Lord doesn’t necessarily mean one is in heaven with God after death. Can we assume Paul meant, “rather to be absent from the body” (no longer dwelling the mortal body) and present with the Lord (present with the Lord in the new immortal body)? I mean, it was Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 15:51–54, and knew when standing in God’s presence, we will have a new body.

I am still questioning a few scriptures. Therefore, I am here to dialog and receive feedback.

[KeptByTheWord]

Hopefully MTD will weigh in. This is a subject he has studied a lot.

[Michael The Disciple]

Blackxeas,

Right on all counts! This great truth needs people to carry it forth. Why have a resurrection if we already have an immortal soul? No need for it. If the immortal soul is currently enjoying itself in Heaven in the presence of Christ why stick it back in a flesh body as is commonly taught?

The resurrection of the dead is the true gospel! No better "good news" than to have the hope of coming back to life!

[Abiding Now]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

[Lafon]

MTD, a question for you .....

When did God create your soul, and when did it become a "living" soul?

[Lafon]

I would like to respond to this in greater depth, but I think the place for this discussion is in the Debate Room (General Debate & Discussion Topics). How does one go about having Admin initiate such action? Tks!

[Michael The Disciple]

I would like to respond to this in greater depth, but I think the place for this discussion is in the Debate Room (General Debate & Discussion Topics). How does one go about having Admin initiate such action? Tks!

Why not leave it here where peradventure someone just might notice it? A sure way to kill a thread is to put it somewhere besides here IMO.

[Michael The Disciple]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Did you read the verses in Post 1? They are an excellent starting place for they are clear straight doctrine. Practically ALL the scriptures commonly used to support "immortal soul" are visions or parables. In other words symbolic.

In the case of the souls under the altar. Whats an altar for? Its a place of sacrifice. When a sacrifice was made the blood ran under the altar.

Did you know your life or "soul" is IN YOUR BLOOD?

10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:10-11

In the Hebrew life and soul are the same word. Strongs 5315. A breathing creature or animal.

The souls under the altar symbolize the saints offering their lives in sacrifice to Jesus.

They cried out to the Lord the same way Abels blood cried out from the ground.

9 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. Gen. 4:9

Was Abels blood really crying out to God from the ground? Or was God speaking a symbolism?

So when the souls under the altar cried out for vengeance what happens?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are told to REST. Death is many times likened to "sleep" in the Bible.

They must rest or sleep until the resurrection.

Now how can we know this is a correct understanding?

We see the same souls later in Rev. 20.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev. 20:4-5

Here we see that the souls martyred for Christ LIVED at the first resurrection! In other words before then they were NOT LIVING. They were not alive.

In my Interlinear where the KJV says "they lived" it is written they "came to life".

So THEY the souls of martyrs partook of the first resurrection where they came to life. Yet verse 5 tells us the REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN until the 1000 years were finished.

So point being the dead do not live again until they are resurrected by Christ. He is actually encouraging the reader that altho you may be killed for my sake you can be sure the time will come you will live again. Be strong and be patient!

[DaveC519]

Hello All,

It has been around two years that I began studying the subject of “what after death?” At first, I became confused and concerned after reading and studying a few passages. Were they teaching me incorrectly from my upbringing? I have concluded accepting whatever waits at life’s end.


I would like to share a few ideas and would be interested in reading your input. However, I am only interested in serious answers, as I have seen many jokers here. I was taught that we immediately enter heaven after death, but there were a few biblical scriptures that had me reevaluating those teachings.
I will start by giving a few examples, followed with one or two questions.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16)….and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

We read within these scriptures, those whom are alive at Christ’ return will not precede (come before) those who are asleep (dead) to be with God. That does not mean those who are dead have gone to heaven before those who are alive. The scripture states that those alive will not precede those who are dead, but because the dead will rise first. The dead in Christ will rise first, and then the alive will rise in the air. Would you agree?



Now, let’s talk about:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51)Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
52)in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Take note in verse 52 and 53, the dead “will be changed” for purposes of becoming immortal (never dying: to have eternal life). The bible reads that we shall receive immortal bodies at the sound of the last trumpet. The scripture clearly interprets the dead being asleep until Christ returns. God then resurrects the dead, changes them by giving them an immortal body, and then takes us all to heaven. How can a dead saint be immortal and enter heaven when they haven’t received their immortal body?

Also, take into consideration,

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul”


The scripture reads that God formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathes into him the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Take notice, it was not until God’s breath and Earth’s dust united that Adam became a living soul.

Is it logical to state that the breath can’t exist without the dust, or the dust without the breath? Is it correct to assume that we are only a living conscious while possessing the breath of life? Would that conclude that there is no consciousness after death (e.g. heaven, etc.)?

The bible does read in Ecclesiastes 12:7, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I also know that Paul states in 2 Corinthians 5:8,

2 Corinthians 5:8
“We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”

Being absent from the body and present with the Lord doesn’t necessarily mean one is in heaven with God after death. Can we assume Paul meant, “rather to be absent from the body” (no longer dwelling the mortal body) and present with the Lord (present with the Lord in the new immortal body)? I mean, it was Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 15:51–54, and knew when standing in God’s presence, we will have a new body.

I am still questioning a few scriptures. Therefore, I am here to dialog and receive feedback.
Hello Blackxeas,

One very important verse which I didn't see you include would be 1 Th 4:14-

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Two questions arise from this verse: in what way are these "asleep in Jesus" and how will God bring them with him?

1)- This verse pre-supposes that the dead in Christ are already with him, but if their body has not been resurrected, how is that possible? It's possible if Paul's statement in 2Cor 5:8 is taken at face value: upon death, the soul (who we are) is separated from the body and literally goes to be with the Lord.

These who have died before the coming of the Lord can be said to be "asleep in Jesus" because their soul is no longer informed of their surroundings via the physical senses, similar to when we are asleep at night. When we sleep, our consciousness continues to exist, but it is not informed via the physical senses, because the body is not awake but at rest.

2)- When the Lord returns, he is going to bring these souls with him, and use them as the pattern to resurrect their bodies. But when these bodies are resurrected, they will be changed (1Cor 15:51-53) into incorruptible, immortal, glorious bodies. The soul is re-united with the new glorious body- all within a moment, the twinkling of an eye! :)

[Michael The Disciple]

MTD, a question for you .....

When did God create your soul, and when did it become a "living" soul?

Blackxeas answered in post 1.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul”


The scripture reads that God formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathes into him the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Take notice, it was not until God’s breath and Earth’s dust united that Adam became a living soul.

[Michael The Disciple]

Hello Blackxeas,

One very important verse which I didn't see you include would be 1 Th 4:14-

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Two questions arise from this verse: in what way are these "asleep in Jesus" and how will God bring them with him?

1)- This verse pre-supposes that the dead in Christ are already with him, but if their body has not been resurrected, how is that possible? It's possible if Paul's statement in 2Cor 5:8 is taken at face value: upon death, the soul (who we are) is separated from the body and literally goes to be with the Lord.

These who have died before the coming of the Lord can be said to be "asleep in Jesus" because their soul is no longer informed of their surroundings via the physical senses, similar to when we are asleep at night. When we sleep, our consciousness continues to exist, but it is not informed via the physical senses, because the body is not awake but at rest.

2)- When the Lord returns, he is going to bring these souls with him, and use them as the pattern to resurrect their bodies. But when these bodies are resurrected, they will be changed (1Cor 15:51-53) into incorruptible, immortal, glorious bodies. The soul is re-united with the new glorious body- all within a moment, the twinkling of an eye! :)

So when you say the soul is no longer aware of their surroundings via the physical senses are you including all sense of awareness or are you believing like most that you are literally aware in Heaven?

Actually eveyones spirit returns to God when they die.

29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29.

The word "breath" is the same word as "spirit" in Hebrew. So our death occurs when God TAKES AWAY OUR SPIRIT. Aterwards we return to the ground.

So in the sense that HE TAKES our spirit at death everyone's spirit returns to him.

Watch how this is taught.

5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This teaching is concerning ALL men not just the righteous when compared to Psalms 104:29.

I do agree with you that the spirit that returns is what God will use as a pattern to restore our lives at the resurrection.

[Lafon]

Why not leave it here where peradventure someone just might notice it? A sure way to kill a thread is to put it somewhere besides here IMO.

I asked that it be moved because the manner in which the scriptural passages noted are interpreted vary significantly from one individual to another. For example, my understanding is perhaps 180 degrees different from yours, and for me to post what I think about the matter here means surely you will disagree with me, thus the need for debating the matter.

Concerning my question of you, no blackxeas did not answer it. God did not form the "soul" of mankind (male and female) from the dust of the ground, rather He simply spoke into existence this part of the "whole" man, after which He took one male soul (whom He named Adam), and "formed" a visible, substantive body from the dust as its dwelling place. Therefore my question to you remains unanswered.

As written by Paul (I Thessalonians 5:23), the composite nature of the "whole" man consists of "spirit and soul and body" (three parts, elements, or components). Where the confusion arises is when one mistakenly considers the soul and spirit to be synonymous, when, in fact, they're not!

With regards to your response to the scriptural passages noted by Abiding Now, IMHO it is so convoluted as to be utterly ridiculous, and evidences a complete lack of understanding on your part of these important matters. I could tear so many holes in it that it wouldn't hold stones, much less water. I don't say this to demean you, but simply as a way of showing that the Debate Room should be the place where this matter is discussed, thus my request that it be moved there still stands.

[Praxeas]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16)….and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

We read within these scriptures, those whom are alive at Christ’ return will not precede (come before) those who are asleep (dead) to be with God.
That does not mean those who are dead have gone to heaven before those who are alive. The scripture states that those alive will not precede those who are dead, but because the dead will rise first. The dead in Christ will rise first, and then the alive will rise in the air. Would you agree?


This doesn't say to be with God IN HEAVEN. It says to meet the Lord in the air and forever be with the Lord.

Rule of thumb is to never read a verse out of context and never read just part of a verse

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Notice that the Lord is descending FROM Heaven.

The topic here is not going TO heaven. The topic is resurrection. Resurrection is defined as getting our bodies back and changed.

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Being raised again, as Jesus was raised again, is our hope.

So as far as I can see, nothing in this verse speaks of departed spirits not being in heaven awaiting the resurrection.

Now, let’s talk about:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51)Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
52)in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Take note in verse 52 and 53, the dead “will be changed” for purposes of becoming immortal (never dying: to have eternal life). The bible reads that we shall receive immortal bodies at the sound of the last trumpet. The scripture clearly interprets the dead being asleep until Christ returns. God then resurrects the dead, changes them by giving them an immortal body, and then takes us all to heaven. How can a dead saint be immortal and enter heaven when they haven’t received their immortal body?"Asleep" is an idiom or figure of speech referring to being deceased.

Mat 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

Joh 11:11 After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."

It doesn't say "takes us all to heaven".

Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul”

The scripture reads that God formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathes into him the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Take notice, it was not until God’s breath and Earth’s dust united that Adam became a living soul.

Is it logical to state that the breath can’t exist without the dust, or the dust without the breath? The Breath existed because it came from God. The dust existed before God breathed into it.

Is it correct to assume that we are only a living conscious while possessing the breath of life? Would that conclude that there is no consciousness after death (e.g. heaven, etc.)? Paul said we are body, soul and spirit. It says we are made in God's image. God is Spirit and exists without the need of a body then (jn 4:24)

Angels are also spirits and also exist therefore without a body. (Heb 1:14).

Did Jesus cease to exist when he died? If we cease to exist when we die, then we are gone. Something that ceases to exist does not exist anymore. Not in heaven, hell or the grave.

The bible does read in Ecclesiastes 12:7, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."spirit" is often used to mean "life"...that which makes us alive, but where does the soul go?

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

John saw souls who "came to life"..referring to being resurrected

And you see, this verse in Gen also does not say anything about going to heaven or not

I also know that Paul states in 2 Corinthians 5:8,

2 Corinthians 5:8
“We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”

Being absent from the body and present with the Lord doesn’t necessarily mean one is in heaven with God after death.
Why not. If I said "Im not with you, I'm with Bob", you'd conclude that not only am I not with you, I am presently with someone else named Bob". That is simple grammar.

In fact, it might be helpful again to read the context

2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Also notice that it is possible to be absent from our bodies and be with the Lord, which proves conscious existence even without a body

Can we assume Paul meant, “rather to be absent from the body” (no longer dwelling the mortal body) and present with the Lord (present with the Lord in the new immortal body)? I mean, it was Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 15:51–54, and knew when standing in God’s presence, we will have a new body.
No, because we aren't said to be going from one body to another. Rather our old current bodies will be changed. So to be absent FROM that body means to be removed FROM that body.

[Praxeas]

Blackxeas,

Right on all counts! This great truth needs people to carry it forth. Why have a resurrection if we already have an immortal soul? No need for it. If the immortal soul is currently enjoying itself in Heaven in the presence of Christ why stick it back in a flesh body as is commonly taught?

The resurrection of the dead is the true gospel! No better "good news" than to have the hope of coming back to life!
God's great plan was not for us to be disembodied souls floating around heaven. It was to be glorified Humans here on earth, a NEW earth, ruling and reigning with God. God's purpose is never pointless

[Praxeas]

Why not leave it here where peradventure someone just might notice it? A sure way to kill a thread is to put it somewhere besides here IMO.
Because people are to lazy to go to another area?

[Abiding Now]

I asked that it be moved because the manner in which the scriptural passages noted are interpreted vary significantly from one individual to another. For example, my understanding is perhaps 180 degrees different from yours, and for me to post what I think about the matter here means surely you will disagree with me, thus the need for debating the matter.

Concerning my question of you, no blackxeas did not answer it. God did not form the "soul" of mankind (male and female) from the dust of the ground, rather He simply spoke into existence this part of the "whole" man, after which He took one male soul (whom He named Adam), and "formed" a visible, substantive body from the dust as its dwelling place. Therefore my question to you remains unanswered.

As written by Paul (I Thessalonians 5:23), the composite nature of the "whole" man consists of "spirit and soul and body" (three parts, elements, or components). Where the confusion arises is when one mistakenly considers the soul and spirit to be synonymous, when, in fact, they're not!

With regards to your response to the scriptural passages noted by Abiding Now, IMHO it is so convoluted as to be utterly ridiculous, and evidences a complete lack of understanding on your part of these important matters. I could tear so many holes in it that it wouldn't hold stones, much less water. I don't say this to demean you, but simply as a way of showing that the Debate Room should be the place where this matter is discussed, thus my request that it be moved there still stands.


:thumbsup

Thank you.

[Lafon]

Blackxeas,

Right on all counts! This great truth needs people to carry it forth. Why have a resurrection if we already have an immortal soul? No need for it. If the immortal soul is currently enjoying itself in Heaven in the presence of Christ why stick it back in a flesh body as is commonly taught?

The resurrection of the dead is the true gospel! No better "good news" than to have the hope of coming back to life!

MTD, I think the major problem you're encountering in understanding the intermediate state, or condition of reality, which the eternal (immortal) soul of man experiences following the death of the physical body of earthly substance in which it presently resides, centers upon your (misguided) understanding of the word "immortal."

It appears, to me at least, that you hold to the belief that because the soul of man was created "after the likeness" of God, that is to say it is an eternally existing entity, then one should understand this to imply that from the moment it became a "living" thing it will remain so forever. Such an understanding "flies in the face" of that which the Scriptures reveals about the matter for quite the opposite is true! This is why I tendered the question to you in my initial posting of this thread, composing it in the manner I did, for I desired to show you (from the Biblical record) just how amiss you are in your understanding in this matter.

Most assuredly a resurrection from the dead, and the changing of our present vile physical bodies into (a new & different) one that will be likened unto the glorious heavenly body of our Lord Jesus Christ at His soon coming glorious appearance, is the "hope" of every saint of God (see Romans 8:19-25; Titus 2:13; I Corinthians 15:49, 52-53).

However, this is not to assert, or intimate in any manner whatsoever, that at the moment of the death of our physical body, God removes our soul from the flesh and takes it to be present with Him in the heavens, where there it is to await until the coming resurrection. To embrace such a belief is to infer that the soul will never "taste," or experience the devastating effect which the judgment of death imposed upon both soul and body (I'm speaking of the righteous dead here, of course, and not to those who were unrighteous at the moment of their death).

The truth of the matter is that it was because of the insurmountable effect which every soul of man has been compelled to confront as a consequence of God's imposition of the penalty of death upon the physical body in which it resides while "alive" and resident upon the earth, God's infinite and incomprehensible love for mankind prompted Him to devise and effectuate a plan of redemption through which man would be granted the privilege, by obedience thereto, to be reconciled unto Himself. The intimate details of this wondrously indescribable plan of redemption is that which encompasses the glorious "gospel of Jesus Christ."

Truth be told, your understanding of the intermediate state of reality which the eternal, invisible soul of man experiences following the death of the body in which it enjoys "liveliness," that is, its immortality as you believe it to be, implies that the consequences of death only impacts man's flesh but has no negative consequences upon his soul. In fact, quite the opposite is true, and it has everything to do with God's creation of what I prefer to call "The Composite Nature of the Whole Man." Please bear with me for awhile longer as I attempt to explain.

Unlike God's creation of the heavenly host of eternally existing invisible spiritual beings, whom He called angels, and whom He, "after the counsel of His own will" (Ephesians 1:11), created as fully animated, "living" creatures, God ordained that the eternally existing invisible soul of man would NOT be such, rather at its creation it would exist as an inanimate, non-living entity, that is, until its placement in a substantive body, after which He would introduce the "breath of life" (aka, "spirit") into its nostrils, thus causing it to become a "living" soul.

Perhaps you're wondering why I believe it is so important for one understand this aspect of the distinctive difference which prevailed between God's creation of the angelic being and the soul of man. Well, here's why ...

In accord with His infinite wisdom, even before anything was created, God decreed that every creature He would create, both man and angels, would be subjected to His rule or lordship over them. He also decreed that there would be eternally devastating, and altogether insurmountable consequences for any who elected, of their own volition, to reject His dominion over them. The penalty to be imposed for willful disobedience to His lordship was to be death (punishment in a lake of eternal flames).

Because there had never been a time when the angels whom He had created had known a "non-living" condition of reality, then this meant that when God imposed the penalty of death upon Lucifer and the angels which he persuaded to join with him in rebellion, God's "righteousness" (i.e., equality of administering justice) demanded that they be "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6). Simply stated, the penalty of death, which God imposed upon the rebellious angels; because they were created as "living" creatures, meant that they must await final judgment, and the imposition of eternal punishment, all the while being fully animated ("alive").

We find evidence to authenticate this understanding in the record of Christ Jesus' encounter with the "two possessed with devils," that cried out to Him, saying, "What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? Art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (see Matthew 8:28-29, KJV). The "devils" (invisible spirits) that had taken up residence in these two men were fully aware that there was to come a day when the eternal consequences of their rebellion would be imposed, however, they also knew that this encounter with our Lord was not that day, but that it was yet some time in the distant future.

Man also has been made aware that there will be a day of final judgment, however, because the effect of death is different for man than it is for the angels, and this because of the manner of the distinctive difference in their creation, then neither men nor angels know when that great day will be.

The general consensus is that the words of Genesis 1:27 implies that when God created "man in His own image," He (only) created two souls, namely, Adam and Eve. Nothing could be farther from the truth, for we find it written that at the end of the 6th day of the creative week: "Thus the heavens and the earth were FINISHED, and ALL the host of them. And on the seventh day God ENDED his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from ALL his work which he had made" (Genesis 2:1-2, KJV, Emphasis Added).

By these words I am persuaded we MUST believe that when God created mankind on the sixth day, He created not two souls, but a host of them which no man could number. I believe this because there is nothing within the entirety of the scriptural record which follows to disclose that God ever created anything, no, not even the soul of a solitary being, beyond this final day of the creative week.

And so it is, always has been and continues to the present to be, that you, I, and every inanimate, non-living soul that God ever created, were and has been in existence with Him since the sixth day of creation, all the while awaiting placement in a substantive human body, at which time introduces the breath of life from Himself, thereby causing it to become a fully animated, "living" soul. This also implies that after its placement within a fleshly body, and until the soul of man inhales his first breath that "awakens" it from its inanimate condition of reality, it is rendered incapable of awareness; including the passage of time while it remains in this passive state of reality.

To be continued .....

[Revelationist]

No life everlasting for the lost...

[Michael The Disciple]

No life everlasting for the lost...

No they will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Soul and body.

10:28 Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Matt 10:28

[Lafon]

No they will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Soul and body.

10:28 Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Matt 10:28

Oh! I see. If I don't want to live eternally in the perfect bliss of God's paradise, then just rebel against Him in this present life and in the end I will be destroyed, gone, done away with, completely and forevermore, right?

Such a thing is foreign to the doctrine which Jesus Christ and His chosen apostles taught, and reeks of the erroneous teachings of the Jehovah Witnesses! Pure "Hogwash!"

[Abiding Now]

When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Colossians 3:4 KJV

[Abiding Now]

Bro Lafon please finish your post. I find it interesting.

[Abiding Now]

25. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

26. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:52, 53 KJV

[Revelationist]

Oh! I see. If I don't want to live eternally in the perfect bliss of God's paradise, then just rebel against Him in this present life and in the end I will be destroyed, gone, done away with, completely and forevermore, right?

Such a thing is foreign to the doctrine which Jesus Christ and His chosen apostles taught, and reeks of the erroneous teachings of the Jehovah Witnesses! Pure "Hogwash!"

You like the Greek Mytholigy version better?

[Abiding Now]

10. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

11.To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 5:10, 11 KJV


17. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17 KJV



And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10-15 KJV

[Praxeas]

When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Colossians 3:4 KJV
What do you think that means?

[Revelationist]

10. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

11.To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 5:10, 11 KJV


17. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17 KJV



And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.




If you read about Sodom and Gomorrah their smoke it says goes up for ever and for ever also... But do you see it today? It's just describing their utter destruction.

[Lafon]

Bro Lafon please finish your post. I find it interesting.

I'm still composing it and hope to post more later today, if the Lord wills. :) Thanks for your interest in such an important, far-reaching subject.

[Timmy]

When you guys get it figured out, let me know. :heeheehee

[Aquila]

Here are some points refuting the doctrine of soul-sleep:

1. Moses and Elijah talking with Christ on the mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3-4
).
2. Samuel appearing to King Saul right before his death (1 Samuel 28) The rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16). Unless Jesus is just making up stories.
3. The argument of Christ that God is presently the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 22:31-32). He is presented as God of the living and not of the dead. They must be presently alive according to the teaching of Christ.
4.1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
- Those who are asleep in Jesus (v.13) are also up in heaven with God since God brings them with Him when He returns (v.14). Their sleep refers to the temporary state of the body.
5. Joy in the presence of the angels over one sinner that repents (Luke 15:10
).
6. Abraham seeing the day of Christ and being glad (John 8:56
).
7. Hell full of people where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44
, 46, 48). This is not eternity because hell will be emptied into the lake of fire in eternity (Revelation 20).
8. The repentant thief was to be with Christ in paradise "To day" (Luke 23:43
).This would not be possible if the soul were asleep.
9. The souls under the altar that were slain were crying out to God (Revelation 6:9-11
). They were not sleeping.
10. Paul being a strait between life and death because, though he had a work to do on earth, death would be much better. To live is Christ but to die is gain. (Philippians 1:20-24
). Let me ask. How would dying be better than life, if to live was Christ but to die is to sleep until the resurrection? His desire was to depart and to be with Christ. I believe that only a Bible-denier would find this inadequate proof.
11. That still leaves 2 Corinthians 5:8
.

Which brings me to this comment: Every time I have dealt with someone advocating soul sleep, I have found someone who went to the Greek and Hebrew in a Bible-denying way and who exalted the limited, earthly viewpoint of the Old Testament over the clear and fuller revelation of the New Testament. Be careful about these people. If they are not seventh-day adventists, they are teaching their doctrine.

[Lafon]

Here are some points refuting the doctrine of soul-sleep:

1. Moses and Elijah talking with Christ on the mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3-4
).
2. Samuel appearing to King Saul right before his death (1 Samuel 28) The rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16). Unless Jesus is just making up stories.
3. The argument of Christ that God is presently the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 22:31-32). He is presented as God of the living and not of the dead. They must be presently alive according to the teaching of Christ.
4.1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
- Those who are asleep in Jesus (v.13) are also up in heaven with God since God brings them with Him when He returns (v.14). Their sleep refers to the temporary state of the body.
5. Joy in the presence of the angels over one sinner that repents (Luke 15:10
).
6. Abraham seeing the day of Christ and being glad (John 8:56
).
7. Hell full of people where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44
, 46, 48). This is not eternity because hell will be emptied into the lake of fire in eternity (Revelation 20).
8. The repentant thief was to be with Christ in paradise "To day" (Luke 23:43
).This would not be possible if the soul were asleep.
9. The souls under the altar that were slain were crying out to God (Revelation 6:9-11
). They were not sleeping.
10. Paul being a strait between life and death because, though he had a work to do on earth, death would be much better. To live is Christ but to die is gain. (Philippians 1:20-24
). Let me ask. How would dying be better than life, if to live was Christ but to die is to sleep until the resurrection? His desire was to depart and to be with Christ. I believe that only a Bible-denier would find this inadequate proof.
11. That still leaves 2 Corinthians 5:8
.

Which brings me to this comment: Every time I have dealt with someone advocating soul sleep, I have found someone who went to the Greek and Hebrew in a Bible-denying way and who exalted the limited, earthly viewpoint of the Old Testament over the clear and fuller revelation of the New Testament. Be careful about these people. If they are not seventh-day adventists, they are teaching their doctrine.


Aquila, If it be that you're referencing me and the things I've written, I would remind you of this gentle warning from the sacred Writ:

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him" (Proverbs 18:13, KJV).

I would encourage you to wait until I have completed the posting of all that I am persuaded the Lord has revealed to me about the matter before judging me a heretic or reprobate. I think maybe after having done so you perhaps might view this matter quite differently.

Warmest regards, Lafon

[Lafon]

You like the Greek Mytholigy version better?

Sir, because I have absolutely zero interest in it, I've never studied Greek Mythology, nor do I intend to do so. My opinions and beliefs which I express on this forum about the issues being addressed are based exclusively upon the sacred writings of the Scriptures.

[Lafon]

When you guys get it figured out, let me know. :heeheehee

:smack Just exercise patience for awhile longer, Timmy. By the time I complete the composing and posting of the entire exposition of this matter that I am now in the process of doing, (hopefully) you may discover you've learned something new. :nod

[Timmy]

:smack Just exercise patience for awhile longer, Timmy. By the time I complete the composing and posting of the entire exposition of this matter that I am now in the process of doing, (hopefully) you may discover you've learned something new. :nod

OK. :thumbsup

[shazeep]

have you guys covered 1Sam28 yet? It's OT, but culminates in, "...tomorrow you (Saul) and your sons shall be with me (Samuel); wherein Samuel is a type for 'accepted by God,' and Saul is...not. While we are under a different dispensation now, it definitely seems to have some bearing upon our understanding of the afterlife.

[Michael The Disciple]

Which brings me to this comment: Every time I have dealt with someone advocating soul sleep, I have found someone who went to the Greek and Hebrew in a Bible-denying way and who exalted the limited, earthly viewpoint of the Old Testament over the clear and fuller revelation of the New Testament. Be careful about these people. If they are not seventh-day adventists, they are teaching their doctrine.

Whenever I or any Oneness Teacher I ever heard set out to prove our doctrine that God is one and Yeshua is God we ALWAYS start with the Old Testament first. Why? Because therein lies the foundation for the new.

After all if we jumped right into the New Testament the Trins would utterly destroy Oneness teaching. But if FIRST a correct foundation is laid THEN we can see how the statements of Yeshua and the apostles are to be taken.

Some of you guys remind me exactly of the Trins I deal with. By removing the OT foundation they point to things like Jesus being baptized. Jesus praying to the Father. God saying "let us make man". They think they have completely refuted Oneness.

Same as you all. The very same attitude. Always bring up the same points. They are almost always parables or visions symbolizing certain points. And if they are not seen in unity with what was taught as truth beforehand by the Prophets one can become very confused.

I mean the Trins are not really haters of God or people that WANT to be deceived. Its just that they are trying to understand the New Testament by forcing the interpretation they were taught in OPPOSITION to what God first established as true.

So fire away. Its a very important discussion and most Oneness Pentecostals are deceived in this area. They love to think of themselves as having the truth while in crucial foundation teachings they are just as off as the Trins.

So it is clear that some groups like Seventh Day Adventists may actually have more truth than Oneness Pentecostals in some areas. I study and accept what I see as the truth. If Seventh Day Adventists, JW, Charismatic, or whoever believes truth about something good for them. It does not affect what I believe other than Im glad when anyone accepts any truth.

My hope is always that all the pieces of the truth puzzle would be put together into the faith once delivered to the saints before I die. If I live to see that how glorious it would be.

[Michael The Disciple]

How Immortal Soul Doctrine Perverts The Gospel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The gospel is defined as the resurrection of Jesus. Also called "the good news".


1 Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 1 Cor. 15:1-5

So the good news was that Jesus rose from the dead. If "immortal soul" doctrine were true would not that be better news? After all one would instantly find himself in Heaven. He would be immortal apart from the resurrection.



Apostle Paul tells us that immortality was brought to light "revealed" through the gospel!

8 Therefore don’t be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner; but endure hardship for the Good News according to the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Good News. 2 Tim.1:8-10

This says to me that immortality was not yet revealed before the gospel. There are a few places in the OT where the resurrection was mentioned like Daniel chapter 12:1-3 but according to Paul it must have largely still been a mystery up until Jesus rose from the dead.

If immortality was not revealed until the gospel how could the people living before and at the time of Christ been believing men could have been dying and then granted immortality/eternal life based on the Jewish scriptures?

I realize immortality was taught "instant Heaven" in other religons of the day. Apparently some Jewish groups borrowed such teaching from them.

But let us focus for a minute on the meaning of "the good news". Where was the improvment of the resurrection over the doctrine of dying and immediately having etenal life if such were true?

It seems the good news was the fact that men who die are able to live again by means of the resurrection , Jesus being its firstfruits. After all if everyone who had ever died to that point in time was already alive in the paradise of "Abrahams Bosom" how would it really be good news to them? Supposedly they all then went with Jesus back to Heaven.

Now they teach when a Christian dies he goes directly there into the bliss of eternal life. So the resurrection or good news that Jesus revealed seems irrelevant for them does it not?

Which news seems better to you? That when men die they go straight to Heaven into eternal life or that at the coming of Jesus you will rise again and then inherit eternal life?

Which one of these is the "good news" according to the apostles doctrine?

[Praxeas]

A "SOUL" in the OT was not a disembodied spirit. God breathed life into the body and man became a living soul.

Our hope is in the resurrection of our bodies to be immortal "second Adams" like Christ was, not as disembodied spirits

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Act 23:6 Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial."

[Praxeas]

BTW..what is Eternal Life and when do we get it?

[Michael The Disciple]

BTW..what is Eternal Life and when do we get it?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:5-7

Clear enough.

[Aquila]

Whenever I or any Oneness Teacher I ever heard set out to prove our doctrine that God is one and Yeshua is God we ALWAYS start with the Old Testament first. Why? Because therein lies the foundation for the new.

The OT isn't the foundation of the NT. The NT was God's plan from eternity past. The Gospel of Christ's cross was God's plan long before the foundations of the earth were laid. In fact, the OT is full of types and shadows of manifest NT realities.

One CANNOT properly understand the OT without the NT. The NT tells us the actual meaning behind the sacrificial system and it's ordinances. Therefore, the NT defines the OT... the OT doesn't define the NT.

[Aquila]

The OT is limited in scope. It is insufficient to be the final word on mysteries like death and dying. Up until Christ... no man had come into the world knowing the unknowable. Up until Christ, no man had enough understanding of the hereafter to warn of things to come after death.

[Michael The Disciple]

The OT is limited in scope. It is insufficient to be the final word on mysteries like death and dying. Up until Christ... no man had come into the world knowing the unknowable. Up until Christ, no man had enough understanding of the hereafter to warn of things to come after death.

Same things Trins say about the Godhead/Trinity.

[Aquila]

Same things Trins say about the Godhead/Trinity.

Trins aren't wrong about everything Michael. Think about it... Trins believe there is a God right? Are they wrong about that too??? Are you saying that the OT wasn't merely types and shadows of NT realities??? Because that's what your post implies.

[shazeep]

Hmm, ok, if i can't get you guys to bite @ the Saul/Samuel conundrum, what about the numerous references to apparent 'levels' of both heaven and hell? We hold such a B&W view of them, i think.

[Aquila]

Hmm, ok, if i can't get you guys to bite @ the Saul/Samuel conundrum, what about the numerous references to apparent 'levels' of both heaven and hell? We hold such a B&W view of them, i think.

Interesting question. I'd like to see them answer it.

[Timmy]

Interesting question. I'd like to see them answer it.

I'm sure Lafon will address it, in the long awaiting continuation post. You know, the one that will settle this once and for all. :heeheehee

[Aquila]

I'm sure Lafon will address it, in the long awaiting continuation post. You know, the one that will settle this once and for all. :heeheehee

lol

[Blackxeas]

Praxeas, I was thinking about what to respond with, and a thought popped into my mind to tell you. That thought I have written at the end of this post.


No, because we aren't said to be going from one body to another. Rather our old current bodies will be changed. So to be absent FROM that body means to be removed FROM that body.


Take notice that our bodies will be changed. Why will our bodies change? Our bodies will transform so we can live forever. If you read Romans 4:23, it clearly states that the gift of God is eternal life, which is immortality. We can’t live forever until we are transformed. What is the purpose of being transformed and receiving the gift of eternal life if our souls already live forever? The scriptures clearly indicate that eternal life and transformation will not be until the last trumpet sounds. As you put it, “it’s simple grammar to understand.”


This doesn't say to be with God IN HEAVEN. It says to meet the Lord in the air and forever be with the Lord.

Rule of thumb is to never read a verse out of context and never read just part of a verse

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Notice that the Lord is descending FROM Heaven.

The topic here is not going TO heaven. The topic is resurrection. Resurrection is defined as getting our bodies back and changed.

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Being raised again, as Jesus was raised again, is our hope.

So as far as I can see, nothing in this verse speaks of departed spirits not being in heaven awaiting the resurrection.


I never said, “to be with God in heaven.” You probably scanned over my post instead of reading it. The scriptures clearly indicate that we’ll be caught up in the air. I was trying to emphasize that the dead in Christ shall raise first (your scripture above -1 Th4:16). Those alive shall not precede the dead in being raised. It is not until after the trumpet sounding that any human will ascend.

And now I tell you, I can see nothing in these verses that speaks of “the dead” being in heaven awaiting the resurrection. Doesn’t that seem a little illogical? The spirit of a dead person being with God, and when the trumpet sounds, God sends them back to their grave to resurrect them out of the ground?

"Asleep" is an idiom or figure of speech referring to being deceased.
Mat 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Joh 11:11 After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."
It doesn't say "takes us all to heaven".


I know what “asleep” means. Also, take notice, Jesus didn’t say, “hmmm…I need to pull Lazarus’ spirit from some abode and reunite it with his body to revive him.” Jesus simply said, “Lazarus, come forth.”


The Breath existed because it came from God. The dust existed before God breathed into it.


Obviously. Who said anything different? Adam did not become a living soul until God’s breath united with the Earth’s dust.


Paul said we are body, soul and spirit. It says we are made in God's image. God is Spirit and exists without the need of a body then (jn 4:24)


You want utilize the scripture in that method? Ok. According to Genesis 1:12, the spirit of God was hovering the waters. Obviously, body and spirit are two distinct matters. So, where was God’s body when His spirit was hovering over the waters? If we use your interpretation of that scripture, then from the beginning God has possessed a physical and spiritual form. When scripture speaks of being made in God’s likeness, it’s referring to different attributes we possess.


Angels are also spirits and also exist therefore without a body. (Heb 1:14).


How can you compare angels to humans?


Did Jesus cease to exist when he died? If we cease to exist when we die, then we are gone Something that ceases to exist does not exist anymore. Not in heaven, hell or the grave.


Jesus physical body ceased functioning, so technically the man Christ Jesus ceased to exist. God is a spirit. The spirit indwelled flesh. Where the Spirit of God went after the death of the man Christ Jesus, I don’t know.


"spirit" is often used to mean "life"...that which makes us alive, but where does the soul go?

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
John saw souls who "came to life"..referring to being resurrected


You stated above that John saw the souls of those who came to life? How can a soul “return to life” if it hasn’t ceased to exist?


Why not. If I said "Im not with you, I'm with Bob", you'd conclude that not only am I not with you, I am presently with someone else named Bob". That is simple grammar.

In fact, it might be helpful again to read the context

2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Also notice that it is possible to be absent from our bodies and be with the Lord, which proves conscious existence even without a body


Praxeas, as I was thinking about with what to respond a thought popped into my mind. Before I tell you my thought, is it possible that Paul could interpret “rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” as a desire to get out of this Earthly and into his immortal body? Possibly.

Here’s the thought that popped into my mind. Let’s say that’s Paul or other people do go to heaven after their death.

Jesus told his apostles in John 14:3
3)And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am


Let me break this verse down for you. Jesus said, apostles, I am going to prepare a place for you. You can’t come with me now. Do not worry though, I will come back to Earth, and at that time, I will take you with me. However, I first have to prepare a place, because that place will allow you to be where I am. Without me preparing that place, you can’t be where I am. That is why I have to go away and prepare that place, and then come back for you.

Praxeas, since Jesus hasn’t returned, I can’t live in the place he has prepared for me. In addition, according to Jesus, the place he’s preparing will allow me to be where He is. Until then, not even in death can I go to be with him. Why? Because He has not come back for me. Why, maybe he’s not done preparing the place he mentioned. However, what I do know is, Jesus was emphatic about, “I go and prepare a place for you…..that you also may be where I am.”

Praxeas, would you agree that not even in death could we go be with Jesus? He said we can’t be where he is because he first must prepare a place for us. According to scripture, we will not inherit that place until he returns. In the meantime, we will rest in the dirt and wait for the resurrection.

John 14:3…I must prepare a place for you…. that you also may be where I am.

The dead can’t be with Jesus because he said the place he’s preparing is required to be where God is. No dead person can be with Jesus until he’s finish preparing that place. That concludes that the dead are resting in the dirt.

[Lafon]

I'm sure Lafon will address it, in the long awaiting continuation post. You know, the one that will settle this once and for all. :heeheehee


Sorry for the delay, but it seems that a problem developed with my sewer system yesterday morning, and addressing that has been extremely difficult in this cold weather (I live in mid-Michigan). To complicate the problem my house is located approximately 250 ft from the main line of the municipal sewer system and it has taken some doing to clear it up. Thankfully the sewer guys were able to take care of the problem, but it left me with quite a clean-up job in my basement (no raw sewage but lots of water).

As soon as I finish this task I will complete the exposition I have been writing and will post it for consideration of its merits (with lots of comments, both pro and con I'm sure). :)

[Michael The Disciple]

The blessed Hope

15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If one would simply think about verse 18.

He does not comfort them by saying "your loved ones are now in Heaven rejoicing at the throne".

Nope. Not one word about it. The only hope or comfort he gives them about the DEAD are the words he uses in verses 15-18. Just like Yeshua said. He will come again and receive us to himself that we may be always with him.

Oh what a great proof text it would be if Paul had told this Church what you all believe! But alas all thats there is what HE WROTE. So instead we place this in the soul sleep category where it belongs.

[Michael The Disciple]

Praxeas, I was thinking about what to respond with, and a thought popped into my mind to tell you. That thought I have written at the end of this post.





Take notice that our bodies will be changed. Why will our bodies change? Our bodies will transform so we can live forever. If you read Romans 4:23, it clearly states that the gift of God is eternal life, which is immortality. We can’t live forever until we are transformed. What is the purpose of being transformed and receiving the gift of eternal life if our souls already live forever? The scriptures clearly indicate that eternal life and transformation will not be until the last trumpet sounds. As you put it, “it’s simple grammar to understand.”





I never said, “to be with God in heaven.” You probably scanned over my post instead of reading it. The scriptures clearly indicate that we’ll be caught up in the air. I was trying to emphasize that the dead in Christ shall raise first (your scripture above -1 Th4:16). Those alive shall not precede the dead in being raised. It is not until after the trumpet sounding that any human will ascend.

And now I tell you, I can see nothing in these verses that speaks of “the dead” being in heaven awaiting the resurrection. Doesn’t that seem a little illogical? The spirit of a dead person being with God, and when the trumpet sounds, God sends them back to their grave to resurrect them out of the ground?




I know what “asleep” means. Also, take notice, Jesus didn’t say, “hmmm…I need to pull Lazarus’ spirit from some abode and reunite it with his body to revive him.” Jesus simply said, “Lazarus, come forth.”





Obviously. Who said anything different? Adam did not become a living soul until God’s breath united with the Earth’s dust.





You want utilize the scripture in that method? Ok. According to Genesis 1:12, the spirit of God was hovering the waters. Obviously, body and spirit are two distinct matters. So, where was God’s body when His spirit was hovering over the waters? If we use your interpretation of that scripture, then from the beginning God has possessed a physical and spiritual form. When scripture speaks of being made in God’s likeness, it’s referring to different attributes we possess.





How can you compare angels to humans?





Jesus physical body ceased functioning, so technically the man Christ Jesus ceased to exist. God is a spirit. The spirit in indwelled man. Where the Spirit of God went after the death of the man Christ Jesus, I don’t know.





You stated above that John saw the souls of those who came to life? How can a soul “return to life” if it hasn’t ceased to exist?





Praxeas, as I was thinking about with what to respond a thought popped into my mind. Before I tell you my thought, is it possible that Paul could interpret “rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” as a desire to get out of this Earthly and into his immortal body? Possibly.

Here’s the thought that popped into my mind. Let’s say that’s Paul or other people do go to heaven after their death.

Jesus told his apostles in John 14:3
3)And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am


Let me break this verse down for you. Jesus said, apostles, I am going to prepare a place for you. You can’t come with me now. Do not worry though, I will come back to Earth, and at that time, I will take you with me. However, I first have to prepare a place, because that place will allow you to be where I am. Without me preparing that place, you can’t be where I am. That is why I have to go away and prepare that place, and then come back for you.

Praxeas, since Jesus hasn’t returned, I can’t live in the place he has prepared for me. In addition, according to Jesus, the place he’s preparing will allow me to be where He is. Until then, not even in death can I go to be with him. Why? Because He has not come back for me. Why, maybe he’s not done preparing that place he mentioned. However, what I do know is, Jesus was emphatic about, “I go and prepare a place for you…..that you also may be where I am.”

Praxeas, would you agree that not even in death could we go be with Jesus? He said we can’t be where he is because he first must prepare a place for us. According to Scripture, we will not inherit that place until he returns. In the meantime, we will rest in the dirt and wait for the resurrection.

John 14:3…I must prepare a place for you…. that you also may be where I am.

The dead can’t be with Jesus because he said the place he’s preparing is required to be where God is. No dead person can be with Jesus until he’s finish preparing that place. That concludes that the dead are resting in the dirt.

Sound doctrine!:highfive

[Michael The Disciple]

Prax

Angels are also spirits and also exist therefore without a body. (Heb 1:14).

Where do "Apostolics" get the idea angels have no body? Definitely not from the Bible.

They don't have earthly bodies but they have HEAVENLY BODIES.

[Aquila]

Where do "Apostolics" get the idea angels have no body? Definitely not from the Bible.

They don't have earthly bodies but they have HEAVENLY BODIES.

Spirit bodies. After all, they are spirits. And anyone who has ever encountered, conversed, or sensed the presence of an angel knows they are spirit.

[Aquila]

To the "soul sleepers", who also typically believe in Annihilationist theories, man is just a "biobot".... a biological "machine" whose conscience essence ceases to function after death. Man's conscious essence only re-animates upon the resurrection, according to them. Yet... God, angels, demons, are all spiritual realities that have no physical body and yet have a conscious essence. One should ask, Why is man the only sentient being to not have a conscious essence without a physical body? And if man doesn't... is He truly made in the image of God (the man Jesus Christ)? After all... when Jesus died He never ceased to be conscious as God... else one would argue that God's throne was empty for three days. We'd definitely not mirror the image of Jesus if we are merely biological robots. This is a glaring inconsistency.

[Aquila]

Also, one has to take into consideration the spiritual union between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God once one is born again. One becomes one spirit with the Lord. We become branches of the True Vine. Does this union evaporate upon death? Or do we live on to be brought into His presence through this union?

The entire soul sleep doctrine and it's annihilationist leanings is very stretched to deny a reality that is a universal understanding. We live on after death. The body is but a shell that is shed at death. Yet the soul sleeper would have you believe that it is the shell of absolutely nothing that continues on after death.

The soul sleeper also fails to think categorically. When one is dead, it can be said that they are "sleeping" and "know nothing" in the grave, because an aspect of their being is indeed sleeping without any level of consciousness in the grave... their body. One can say that one is in the presence of God, because an aspect of their being is indeed in the presence of God... their spirit. So, one who has died can be said to be both sleeping and fully conscious in the presence of God at the same time.

One cannot neglect categories of ontological reality. Soul sleepers do this constantly.

[Michael The Disciple]

Paul did not say absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he was WILLING TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:8-10

Pauls teaching is we labor to be accepted by Yeshua. Look at the context of WHEN.

Being present with the Lord does NOT precede the day of Christ. Immortal soul doctrine is like pre trib rapture. It puts us with Christ before the time HE appoints.

[Aquila]

Paul did not say absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he was WILLING TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD.


8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:8-10

Why would Paul be willing, even desirous, of being absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord... if that is an impossibility???

Pauls teaching is we labor to be accepted by Yeshua. Look at the context of WHEN.

Being present with the Lord does NOT precede the day of Christ. Immortal soul doctrine is like pre trib rapture. It puts us with Christ before the time HE appoints.

Let's look closely...

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is saying that he and other believers are willing to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. If soul sleep is right... it's impossible to be in God's presence without a body, so Paul would be making a rather foolish statement. It's obvious that Paul is referring to the reality of being absent from the body after death... and present with the Lord.

9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Paul is saying that this is why we labor for Christ. Because whether we are present in the body our absent from the body, we might be acceptable to Him.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:8-10

And being acceptable to Him is important because we must all one day appear before the judgment seat of Jesus, so that every one of us may receive judgment regarding deeds done in the body, each according to what we have done, whether it be good or bad.

Now, here are some points...

Paul and others were willing to be absent from the body, and be present with the Lord. Clearly whatever is "absent" from the body is "present" with the Lord. Now, if we do not move onto the afterlife... what is "absent"??? Clearly if nothing leaves the body, nothing can be said to be "absent".

Next, we are to be judged for the deeds done in our bodies... why specifically in our bodies if that is our only mode of existence???

This verse is so deviously wrested from it's obvious meaning by soul sleep advocates, I'm appalled.

The dynamic translation of the New Living Translation captures an accurate meaning of this text:

2 Corinthians 5:8-10
New Living Translation (NLT)
8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. 10 For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.

[Aquila]

Heresy.

[Michael The Disciple]

Aquila

Paul is saying that this is why we labor for Christ. Because whether we are present in the body our absent from the body, we might be acceptable to Him.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:8-10

Well yes Aquila. We labor to be accepted by him at the day of judgment. THEN we will be accepted by him. Immortal soul believes they are already present IN HEAVEN with Christ BEFORE the day of judgment occurs.

They want to slash the context. Paul is willing to be absent from his earthly body and present with Christ. SO HE LABORS THAT HE MAY BE ACCEPTED BY HIM.

When? At the day of judgment, not before.

[Michael The Disciple]

Lets once again go though the context of 2 Cor. 5.

This is often used against soul sleep teaching. However it fails to take the CONTEXT of 2 Cor.

Paul teaches:

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. The Corinthians. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.

To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.

52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.

What does Paul mean by asking the question "Oh death where is thy sting" and "Oh grave where is thy victory".

The sting of death and the victory over the grave is so plainly LINKED TO THE RESURRECTION.

The erroneous doctrine of eternal life apart from the resurrectionhas no meaning in this light. Until then death has the victory according to Paul.

Christians today only think the grave is already defeated. It is something taken by faith. Yet its reality is NOT UNTIL THIS:

54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

[Praxeas]

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:5-7

Clear enough.
but WHEN?

Do we already have Eternal life? Or when we die do we cease to exist and just disappear?

Or do we continue to exist as disembodied spirits somewhere?

BTW when Jesus died did he cease to exist?

Does Immortality and Eternal Life pertain to being disembodied spirits or to the Resurrection in our new bodies?

BTW that verse doesn't really explain what Eternal Life is.

The bible says we have Eternal Life abiding in us and that the source of that Life is God..His Spirit.

If that is true then in order for us to no longer exist God would have to separate from us upon death.

Here is how I view Eternal Life...I view it as the opposite of Eternal Death

Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Seems Eternal Life is a precondition to being raised on the last day. Let's look at the last day

First Resurrection (Eternal Life)
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The Second death refers to the lake of fire. Eternal Life means these souls were not bound by hell

Mat 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Hades won't over power those that have Eternal Life. It's because they already have Eternal Life that this is so.

Back to Revelation 20. If you notice those who are raised first are not said to be in hell (Grave,Hades) unlike the OTHER dead

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

This is the Second Death mentioned earlier. Notice that this group of people come from "Death and Hades" unlike the first group. Why? Because They have Eternal Life

Death has no hold on the church when we die. We are not affected unlike those not in the church.

Our hope is awaiting the resurrection of our bodies

[shazeep]

but WHEN?

Our hope is awaiting the resurrection of our bodiesyes; and also "before the world was made, i knew you," which must mean you existed in some form. maybe not like we think of it, dunno.

Blackxeas--niiice avatar, btw--i've postulated on this forum before that heaven and hell were not actual places, as we envision a place; and so in a sense at least, it is possible to tell someone "you are not going to heaven or hell when you die" since it is quite likely that they would be coming to you rather than you going to them, if that makes any sense.

I mean, we're told the kingdom of Heaven is within you, and also No one knows where they go when they die; but we're given the impression in church that we're all going somewhere--while praying ...on earth as it is in Heaven... :lol And yet Heaven and hell are very real, imo.

i think it just reduces to another one of those freakydeaky freewill/predestination apparent (to us) dichotomies that God is able to demonstrate.

[shazeep]

hmm, and also possibly reveals a way to remove us from the now, by projecting it all into the future; which i highly suspect...violates Understand I AM.

[Praxeas]

Does "soul sleep" mean ceasing to exist?

This topic is getting confusing. Aren't we discussing whether the dead in Christ are in heaven or not right now?

[Praxeas]

Trins aren't wrong about everything Michael. Think about it... Trins believe there is a God right? Are they wrong about that too??? Are you saying that the OT wasn't merely types and shadows of NT realities??? Because that's what your post implies.
Right. That is a logical fallacy called Guilt by Association.

[Praxeas]

PART ONE

Take notice that our bodies will be changed. Why will our bodies change? Our bodies will transform so we can live forever.
So we can live HERE for ever in our bodies with Jesus. That does not mean though we don't still exist after death, with God.

If you read Romans 4:23, it clearly states that the gift of God is eternal life, which is immortality. Not necessarily.

We will have immortal BODIES. Yet God without an immortal body does not cease to exist or die, does He? Angels? God and angels are said to be spirit (God is Spirit angels are spirits).

God IS Eternal Life because God IS the Eternal Spirit. Having God's Spirit in us is Eternal Life

Notice in the next verse the one spoke of is not only Eternal but immortal

1Ti 1:17 Now to the eternal king, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever! Amen.

The problem here is one of Interpretation and Translation. Words don't always mean the same thing in different contexts. This is why we study Hermeneutics.

Immortality and Eternality are two different words

Immortality refers to our old bodies becoming new bodies that can never die.

Eternal Life though is a spiritual condition. When Adam and Eve sinned, they died spiritually and later physically

Let's put it this way, without having Eternal Life now, there would be no restoration of our bodies later

We can’t live forever until we are transformed. Why not? What do you mean by "live"? Physical living? Sure. But what about spiritual living? Again God (Spirit) and angels (spirits)are alive even without a physical body. In fact "Spirit" carries with it the connotation of LIFE.

God is LIFE. We have LIFE right now
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given us an understanding so that we may know Him who is true. And we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and the everlasting life.

1Jn 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Spirit is Life
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Gal 6:8 For he sowing to his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. But he sowing to the Spirit will reap life everlasting from the Spirit.

See we have that life RIGHT NOW through the Spirit.

When Jesus died, the bible says he "gave up the spirit"...The human spirit or life left the body. Paul said we are body, soul AND spirit...not just bodies.

There is a tripart component

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

See? God can destroy BOTH...separately. When the body dies the soul is not automatically destroyed.

What is the purpose of being transformed and receiving the gift of eternal life if our souls already live forever? I explained that in my last couple posts, One of them to Michael.

The purpose is that God's intent is not for us to live for ever as disembodies spirits in heaven, but as resurrected and glorified humans LIKE Jesus here on earth WITH Him in communion.

That is God's purpose and plan

The scriptures clearly indicate that eternal life and transformation will not be until the last trumpet sounds. As you put it, “it’s simple grammar to understand.” No it doesn't. It indicates we have Eternal Life now through the Spirit but we don't have our restored and immortal bodies yet

I never said, “to be with God in heaven.” You probably scanned over my post instead of reading it. No I read the entire thing. You probably don't understand the point I was making

The scriptures clearly indicate that we’ll be caught up in the air. I was trying to emphasize that the dead in Christ shall raise first (your scripture above -1 Th4:16). Right..to meet Him in the air...but where are we coming from was the issue? Where are the dead in Christ?

Those alive shall not precede the dead in being raised. It is not until after the trumpet sounding that any human will ascend.ascend to the sky? Yes it's not until then that we will meet the Lord in the air but that does not show that the dead in Christ are not in heaven. Remember you said "I never said, “to be with God in heaven.” "

So you must mean "ascend to the sky" and not "to heaven".

So that we will ascend to the sky does not prove those that are already dead in Christ are not in heaven now

And now I tell you, I can see nothing in these verses that speaks of “the dead” being in heaven awaiting the resurrection. That's the point. These verse also don't say the dead AREN'T in heaven.

You see you said this was my verse. Well no it was YOUR verse you used as a proof text in the opening post and I pointed out merely that it does not support the claim that the dead are not already in heaven...alive but not yet with their immortal bodies

Doesn’t that seem a little illogical? The spirit of a dead person being with God, and when the trumpet sounds, God sends them back to their grave to resurrect them out of the ground?No...doesn't sound illogical. Where was Jesus when he was dead? He rose on the third day back in his body right?

So where are the dead right now? We know the body is in the ground, where is the spirit and soul?

BTW that verse doesn't even say that. It just says "And the dead in Christ shall rise first."

The next verse speaks of those still alive meeting us and the Lord in the air. It doesn't mention how ie your idea that we have to go from heaven to earth into the grave and then be raise. So for all you know, we will just appear with Christ in the air already in our new bodies.

I know what “asleep” means. Also, take notice, Jesus didn’t say, “hmmm…I need to pull Lazarus’ spirit from some abode and reunite it with his body to revive him.” Jesus simply said, “Lazarus, come forth.”He also didn't say "Hmm Lazarus does not exist any more so I will have to create a new Lazarus and stick his soul back in his body" :-)

My point was that being asleep simply refers to having physically died. It does not mean we don't continue to exist in heaven or anywhere else outside of our bodies


Obviously. Who said anything different? Adam did not become a living soul until God’s breath united with the Earth’s dust.My point was that we are more than a body. We are tripart, body, soul and spirit.

So again the question is, if our bodies are turning to dust in the ground, where is the rest of us? Do we cease to exist?

You want utilize the scripture in that method? Ok. According to Genesis 1:12, the spirit of God was hovering the waters. Obviously, body and spirit are two distinct matters. Exactly

So, where was God’s body when His spirit was hovering over the waters? He didn't have one. Thats my point...yet He still existed..alive

If we use your interpretation of that scripture, then from the beginning God has possessed a physical and spiritual form. When scripture speaks of being made in God’s likeness, it’s referring to different attributes we possess.You misunderstood something I said and Im not sure what. I didn't say anything about God having a body, just the opposite. That having a body is NOT all there is to existing

How can you compare angels to humans?Because they live. They exist. They are spirit. They speak. They deliver messages. They preach. The bible compares angels and humans. In fact it's said that being human is "a little lower than the angels" and obviously being an angel is lower than being God.

Jesus physical body ceased functioning, so technically the man Christ Jesus ceased to exist. I see...so you DO then believe that when we die our body, soul and spirit all disappear/cease to exist?

God is a spirit. The spirit indwelled flesh. Where the Spirit of God went after the death of the man Christ Jesus, I don’t know.but man is also spirit; body, soul AND spirit.

Man is not a body. Man is a Person with a body, soul and spirit. Did Jesus personally continue to exist after death?

You stated above that John saw the souls of those who came to life? How can a soul “return to life” if it hasn’t ceased to exist?What I said was "John saw souls who "came to life"..referring to being resurrected"

The word resurrected refers to the body coming back to life. Im referring directly to these souls being restored to their bodies.

But how do you address these souls existing if they ceased to exist?

?

[Praxeas]

PART TWO

Praxeas, as I was thinking about with what to respond a thought popped into my mind. Before I tell you my thought, is it possible that Paul could interpret “rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” as a desire to get out of this Earthly and into his immortal body? Possibly. I doubt it. Paul did not say "desire". He is speaking of having confidence of something that will happen. He is assuring the Corinthians about what will happen when they die

2Co 5:6 Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord;
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight;
2Co 5:8 then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.

But let's not stop there. In the same book Paul refers to a peculiar event he experienced where he could not tell if it was in body or out of body.

2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ fourteen years before (whether in the body, I do not know; or outside of the body, I do not know; God knows) such a one was caught up to the third Heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or outside of the body, I do not know; God knows),
2Co 12:4 that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to utter.

Don't you find that odd..we can exist...outside our bodies it seems. What does that refer to?

Perhaps he died when he was stoned and then brought back to life?

Here’s the thought that popped into my mind. Let’s say that’s Paul or other people do go to heaven after their death.

Jesus told his apostles in John 14:3
3)And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am


Let me break this verse down for you. Jesus said, apostles, I am going to prepare a place for you. You can’t come with me now. Do not worry though, I will come back to Earth, and at that time, I will take you with me. However, I first have to prepare a place, because that place will allow you to be where I am. Without me preparing that place, you can’t be where I am. That is why I have to go away and prepare that place, and then come back for you.
He was talking to people who were still alive. Further he was not speaking of "heaven", but of a time He would return to earth and we all would join Him there.

Perhaps "receiving" refers to this?

Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, looking up intently into Heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Act 7:56 And he said, Behold, I see Heaven opened and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 And crying out with a loud voice, they stopped their ears and ran on him with one accord.
Act 7:58 And throwing him outside the city, they stoned him. And the witnesses laid their clothes down at the feet of a young man named Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Praxeas, since Jesus hasn’t returned, I can’t live in the place he has prepared for me. In addition, according to Jesus, the place he’s preparing will allow me to be where He is. Until then, not even in death can I go to be with him. Why? Because He has not come back for me. Why, maybe he’s not done preparing the place he mentioned. However, what I do know is, Jesus was emphatic about, “I go and prepare a place for you…..that you also may be where I am.”I don't think sure the point Jesus is making is he second coming and the New Jerusalem. In the context Jesus is talking about His abiding with us as believers..IN us.

Watch He continues

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans. I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world does not see Me any more. But you see Me. Because I live, you shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

See? "I will come to you" in context refers to the indwelling of the Spirit of truth.

He even uses the word ABODE..that's the same greek word used for Mansions earlier.

monḗ; gen. monḗs, fem. noun from ménō (G3306), to remain, dwell. A mansion, habitation, abode (Joh_14:2, Joh_14:23 [cf. Rev_21:3]). Also related to mónos (G3441), alone, only, single.

Praxeas, would you agree that not even in death could we go be with Jesus? No.

He said we can’t be where he is because he first must prepare a place for us. That's not what he said.

Joh 14:1 "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
Joh 14:4 And you know the way to where I am going."

According to scripture, we will not inherit that place until he returns. In the meantime, we will rest in the dirt and wait for the resurrection.That's not what it says. How can we rest in the dirt if we cease to exist?

John 14:3…I must prepare a place for you…. that you also may be where I am.

The dead can’t be with Jesus because he said the place he’s preparing is required to be where God is. No dead person can be with Jesus until he’s finish preparing that place. That concludes that the dead are resting in the dirt.You think Jesus is still working on that place?

How can the dead rest in dirt if they cease to exist

[Michael The Disciple]

Death has no hold on the church when we die. We are not affected unlike those not in the church.

Our hope is awaiting the resurrection of our bodies

We are unaffected? Paul saw it much different. He said it is ONLY at the resurrection that Christians have the victory over death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor. 15:51-57

The victory over Hades comes at the resurrection. Death says Paul is swallowed up in victory. When? At the resurrection.

Our hope is not the resurrection of the body but of the person. This is the blind spot of the Immortal soul believers. To them the resurrection of THE DEAD never actually means THE DEAD.

It has to ALWAYS be speaking about merely THE BODY because they think their soul is already alive and cannot ever die.

So they change the entire doctrine of the resurrection of THE DEAD to the resurrection of the body.

When Paul gave the foundation doctrines of the faith note what IS THERE and what is NOT there.

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:1-2

Now if eternal life apart from the resurrection was a doctrine of Christ why does Paul totally ignore it? Instead he mentions THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.........not just "the dead bodies"!

Certainly if as soon as we die we had immortality instantly after death that would be greater than awaiting it till the judgment day. After all that's why the immortal soul believers are fighting against this truth.

AND YET Paul does not even mention such a thing as a doctrine of Christ! But rather he points them to the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

The twisting of the foundation doctrine of resurrection of THE DEAD to just merely the resurrection of "dead bodies" is a rejection of one of the foundation teachings of Christ.

[Michael The Disciple]

1Ti 1:17 Now to the eternal king, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever! Amen.

The problem here is one of Interpretation and Translation. Words don't always mean the same thing in different contexts. This is why we study Hermeneutics.

Immortality and Eternality are two different words

Immortality refers to our old bodies becoming new bodies that can never die.

Eternal Life though is a spiritual condition. When Adam and Eve sinned, they died spiritually and later physically

Let's put it this way, without having Eternal Life now, there would be no restoration of our bodies later

The problem with that is this:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:7

Paul puts immortality and eternal life TOGETHER! Tho they are different words they are saying the same thing.

If we have eternal life NOW why does Paul say it is something we receive AFTER PATIENCE AND CONTINUAL WELL DOING?

What the Christian DOES have right now is the down payment of eternal life. The Holy Spirit. That stands in place of eternal life till we actually receive it.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph. 4:30

So Paul says immortality and eternal life is something we are still waiting for.

Also when Paul says Jesus is the eternal king and the only one who has immortality he is putting those two things together AGAIN.

And really that particular verse is the strongest verse in the New Testament that PROVES the doctrine of "soul sleep".

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Paul says in no uncertain terms Jesus is THE ONLY ONE who has immortality. So none of the departed saints have it. They will receive immortality, eternal life on the day Jesus renders every man according to their deeds.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

[Praxeas]

We are unaffected? Paul saw it much different. He said it is ONLY at the resurrection that Christians have the victory over death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor. 15:51-57

The victory over Hades comes at the resurrection. Death says Paul is swallowed up in victory. When? At the resurrection.

Our hope is not the resurrection of the body but of the person. This is the blind spot of the Immortal soul believers. To them the resurrection of THE DEAD never actually means THE DEAD.

It has to ALWAYS be speaking about merely THE BODY because they think their soul is already alive and cannot ever die.

So they change the entire doctrine of the resurrection of THE DEAD to the resurrection of the body.

When Paul gave the foundation doctrines of the faith note what IS THERE and what is NOT there.

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:1-2

Now if eternal life apart from the resurrection was a doctrine of Christ why does Paul totally ignore it? Instead he mentions THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.........not just "the dead bodies"!

Certainly if as soon as we die we had immortality instantly after death that would be greater than awaiting it till the judgment day. After all that's why the immortal soul believers are fighting against this truth.

AND YET Paul does not even mention such a thing as a doctrine of Christ! But rather he points them to the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

The twisting of the foundation doctrine of resurrection of THE DEAD to just merely the resurrection of "dead bodies" is a rejection of one of the foundation teachings of Christ.
I don't see where Paul says "Only at the resurrection"..In fact the resurrection is possible because we are already delivered from Hades by the blood of the lamb

[Michael The Disciple]

Prax

I don't see where Paul says "Only at the resurrection"..In fact the resurrection is possible because we are already delivered from Hades by the blood of the lamb

Nonetheless Christians are there right now awaiting the victory over death till the resurrection.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O HADES, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:52-55

Note the bolded word HADES in verse 55.

Christians are delivered from Hades at the last trump.

[Timmy]

Y'all are heretics! :laffatu

[Praxeas]

Nonetheless Christians are there right now awaiting the victory over death till the resurrection.

Right where? So they still exist?

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O HADES, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:52-55

Note the bolded word HADES in verse 55.

Christians are delivered from Hades at the last trump.
First of all, that can be interpreted as the grave and not keeping them from resurrecting, second it could also just support my argument that the dead in Christ aren't there at all and that is HOW Hades has no victory.

Read Revelation again...the dead who were judged and sent to the Lake of fire also came from Hades....think about that..They were resurrected too! From Hades and yet they are those who are judged and sent to the lake of fire

[Praxeas]

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Is the Church following him?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

[Michael The Disciple]

Right where? So they still exist?


First of all, that can be interpreted as the grave and not keeping them from resurrecting, second it could also just support my argument that the dead in Christ aren't there at all and that is HOW Hades has no victory.

Read Revelation again...the dead who were judged and sent to the Lake of fire also came from Hades....think about that..They were resurrected too! From Hades and yet they are those who are judged and sent to the lake of fire

Well that's my point. Hades is the grave. Presently Hades has the victory over them. But at the resurrection Paul say death is swallowed up in victory.

So its then the saying of Jesus will be fulfilled "the gates of Hades will not prevail against the Church".

The wicked are also raised from Hades. From there (the grave) they are sent on to the Lake Of Fire. Everyone at death goes to Hades.

[Praxeas]

But as I just showed those who are going to the lake of fire are resurrected from hades so this make no sense. Your logic means even the wicked are in the church/have victory over hades

[Michael The Disciple]

But as I just showed those who are going to the lake of fire are resurrected from hades so this make no sense. Your logic means even the wicked are in the church/have victory over hades

Everyone dies and goes to the grave eventually. Some go by way of normal circumstance some by the wrath of God. The saints on gaining resurrection come to life unto the immortal, eternal life with Christ as promised. The wicked are raised to vengeance, destruction in the Lake Of Fire.

[Praxeas]

Everyone dies and goes to the grave eventually. Some go by way of normal circumstance some by the wrath of God. The saints on gaining resurrection come to life unto the immortal, eternal life with Christ as promised. The wicked are raised to vengeance, destruction in the Lake Of Fire.
So evil and the dead in Christ are all in hades, still existing so they must be immortal?

And waiting for ther grave to let them go..

[Esaias]

There is no verse which SAYS anybody goes to heaven or hell upon death, PRIOR TO THE JUDGEMENT DAY.

All scripture speaks as if the wicked will DIE, 'be no more', will 'perish', etc. The righteous are said to 'sleep in Jesus'.

The most famous verse in the entire Bible teaches conditional immortality -

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Jesus taught conditional immortality -

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28

God himself declared conditional immortality -

First, in the Law -

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:22

And in the Psalms -

When the wicked spring as the grass,
and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish;
it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

And in the Prophets -

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. Malachi 4:1-3

In addition, reason demands conditional immortality. Consider -

God alone has immortality. (1 tim 6:16)
Men are not God.
Therefore men do not have immortality - unless God gives it to them.

Therefore, immortality (in humans) is conditional upon the grace of God.

Again, consider -

Immortality is the gift of God (Romans 6:23)
All gifts are given from one who has to one who has not.
Therefore, immortality is given from God (who has) to men (who have not).

And thus, immortality is conditional upon the gift of God.

Again, consider -

Immortality is the reward of the righteous (Romans 2:7).
The wicked are not righteous.
Therefore the wicked do not receive immortality.

Note: to the individual, you will have no consciousness between death and resurrection, therefore TO YOU it will seem that upon death you immediately pass to the Judgement on resurrection day, regardless of how many years or centuries or millennia will have passed 'here under the sun'.

Consider -

Eternal life or damnation is the final result of Judgement Day. One does not go to their reward until they are Judged. Judgement Day is a single event for all mankind, for God hath appointed a DAY in which all will be judged. That day has not happened yet, so therefore nobody has been sent to heaven or hell yet.

Besides, no verse in scripture says the fate of the saints is 'heaven' anyway. This does not mean we will not have access to heaven, as angels do, but it also does not mean we will be gone from earth forever, either. Earth was built for mankind, and there will be a new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

But the wicked will be no more.

[Michael The Disciple]

There is no verse which SAYS anybody goes to heaven or hell upon death, PRIOR TO THE JUDGEMENT DAY.

All scripture speaks as if the wicked will DIE, 'be no more', will 'perish', etc. The righteous are said to 'sleep in Jesus'.

The most famous verse in the entire Bible teaches conditional immortality -

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Jesus taught conditional immortality -

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28

God himself declared conditional immortality -

First, in the Law -

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:22

And in the Psalms -

When the wicked spring as the grass,
and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish;
it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

And in the Prophets -

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. Malachi 4:1-3

In addition, reason demands conditional immortality. Consider -

God alone has immortality. (1 tim 6:16)
Men are not God.
Therefore men do not have immortality - unless God gives it to them.

Therefore, immortality (in humans) is conditional upon the grace of God.

Again, consider -

Immortality is the gift of God (Romans 6:23)
All gifts are given from one who has to one who has not.
Therefore, immortality is given from God (who has) to men (who have not).

And thus, immortality is conditional upon the gift of God.

Again, consider -

Immortality is the reward of the righteous (Romans 2:7).
The wicked are not righteous.
Therefore the wicked do not receive immortality.

Note: to the individual, you will have no consciousness between death and resurrection, therefore TO YOU it will seem that upon death you immediately pass to the Judgement on resurrection day, regardless of how many years or centuries or millennia will have passed 'here under the sun'.

Consider -

Eternal life or damnation is the final result of Judgement Day. One does not go to their reward until they are Judged. Judgement Day is a single event for all mankind, for God hath appointed a DAY in which all will be judged. That day has not happened yet, so therefore nobody has been sent to heaven or hell yet.

Besides, no verse in scripture says the fate of the saints is 'heaven' anyway. This does not mean we will not have access to heaven, as angels do, but it also does not mean we will be gone from earth forever, either. Earth was built for mankind, and there will be a new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

But the wicked will be no more.

Amen to sound doctrine!:thumbsup

[Praxeas]

John 3:18 ESV

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

[Aquila]

Well yes Aquila. We labor to be accepted by him at the day of judgment. THEN we will be accepted by him. Immortal soul believes they are already present IN HEAVEN with Christ BEFORE the day of judgment occurs.

They want to slash the context. Paul is willing to be absent from his earthly body and present with Christ. SO HE LABORS THAT HE MAY BE ACCEPTED BY HIM.

When? At the day of judgment, not before.

Michael... the souls of the martyrs are before the throne awaiting the day of Judgment as we speak...


Revelation 6:9-11
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

[Esaias]

John 3:18 ESV

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

And? Those who believe have, as Paul said, passed from condemnation into life. This is the doctrine of justification. Those who do not believe are condemned already - they are under sentence of death, unless and until they repent.

This simply says that those who believe have assurance of eternal life, and those who do not believe have assurance of eternal damnation. It does NOT say Judgement Day has already occurred, otherwise the lost COULD NEVER BE SAVED, and the believers could NEVER FALL AWAY AND BE LOST.

In other words, the verse you posted does not speak to the issue of whether immortality is conditional, or whether people go straight to heaven or hell upon death, PRIOR to the judgement day.

[Esaias]

Michael... the souls of the martyrs are before the throne awaiting the day of Judgment as we speak...


Revelation 6:9-11
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

1. This is a vision, transmitted using 'signs' ('he signified it...') ie symbols.
2. He does not see the martyrs, he sees 'the souls' of martyrs.
3. The 'souls' are crying out 'how long until we are avenged?'
4. According to Moses, 'the soul is in the blood'. Blood and soul are used synonymously in scripture as representing a person's life.
5. Abel's 'blood cried out' to God after he had been murdered. This is a direct parallel with the passage in Revelation. They say the say thing: When Abel was murdered, his 'blood cried out to God', ie his death demanded satisfaction and justice, ie vengeance from God, restitution and requittal against wickedness. The same thing with the martyrs, their murders demand satisfaction from God's judgement against sin.
6. Notice they are 'under the altar' (at the base), not in any mansions or parading on streets of gold. What is under the altar of sacrifice? According to the instructions in the Law, this is where the blood of the sacrifices were poured out. (see Ex 29:12, Lev 4:7, Lev 4:18, Lev 4:34, etc) Thus, in seeing the 'souls of martyrs under the altar' John is maintaining the typology of blood (which represents life) being poured out under the altar (or at the base of the altar) as a sacrifice to God.
7. Rev 20 proves these martyrs were not then, in ch 6, ALIVE, for it is not until ch 20 (at the FIRST RESURRECTION) that the martyrs 'come alive'. Furthermore, NONE of the rest of the dead were alive at that time until THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT. Therefore, the martyrs of Rev 6:9 are not then currently ALIVE.

Much misunderstanding is possible when people do not maintain consistency in studying Scripture. The typology of Abel, the manner of speaking that the Bible uses in referring to 'his blood cries out', the blood of sacrifices being poured out under the altar according to the Law, all these inform the reader when he/she reads Revelation 6:9 (or should, if they have been studying their Bible). And the message of Revelation 6:9 is then made clear. It is not that 'those who die are alive in heaven immediately upon death', the message of Rev 6:9 is that those who are murdered for the sake of the gospel are well-known to God, will not be forgotten, and will REST until the time of Judgement. Their deaths will be vindicated, their faithful sacrifice for the sake of the Lord will be remembered, they did not die in vain.

[Michael The Disciple]

Michael... the souls of the martyrs are before the throne awaiting the day of Judgment as we speak...


Revelation 6:9-11
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Does not sound like they are enjoying their bliss does it? I guess for thousands of years all they do in Heaven is cry out for vengeance!

[Praxeas]

And? Those who believe have, as Paul said, passed from condemnation into life. This is the doctrine of justification. Those who do not believe are condemned already - they are under sentence of death, unless and until they repent.

This simply says that those who believe have assurance of eternal life, and those who do not believe have assurance of eternal damnation. It does NOT say Judgement Day has already occurred, otherwise the lost COULD NEVER BE SAVED, and the believers could NEVER FALL AWAY AND BE LOST.

In other words, the verse you posted does not speak to the issue of whether immortality is conditional, or whether people go straight to heaven or hell upon death, PRIOR to the judgement day.
And...those who believe area already delivered from a bad judgement and those who do not believe are already judged and condemned.

Even before the "Great White Throne Judgement"

[shazeep]

(Understand I AM)

[Esaias]

And...those who believe area already delivered from a bad judgement and those who do not believe are already judged and condemned.

Even before the "Great White Throne Judgement"

Prax, what are you trying to establish? It sounds like you are saying the Judgement is over and done with already... or at best irrelevant.

A man who is condemned already is not yet currently serving his sentence, Prax. I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. Do you believe believers go to heaven when they die, and sinners go to hell when they die? If so, then your statements about the verse you posted pose no more problem for my position than they do for yours. And conversely, if they pose a problem for my position they pose the exact same problem for yours.

Again, the verse you posted says the non-believer is condemned already - ie is under sentence of death because they have not received pardon through faith in Christ.

Both positions (conditional immortality, inherent immortality) hold to that view.

The verse is saying in effect the lost are, well, LOST, and the saved are, well, SAVED.

I'm looking for a theological equivalent of 'well, duh!' here, help me out...

[Praxeas]

Prax, what are you trying to establish? It sounds like you are saying the Judgement is over and done with already... or at best irrelevant.

Just saying what the bible says

That the sentencing came later does not prevent the fact that those who don't believe are condemned already

[shazeep]

i wonder if it is not only in our minds, in the misinterpretation of tenses here, that this 'someday' judgement is occurring.

[Lafon]

Among disciples of contemporary Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals, there is perhaps no area of doctrinal teachings in which a more significant disparity of beliefs prevails than those concerning the intermediate state of reality which the eternal invisible soul experiences following the death of its physical place of habitation (i.e., the body), and those circumstances which are to precede, and culminate, in the second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ. Certainly the variance of beliefs about these matters expressed by the participants of this forum gives ample evidence of credibility to this observation.

Having noted this, allow me to stress several critically important things which I believe are needful if one is to properly understand that which the Scriptures disclose about these matters.

First, the words of Psalm 145:17 informs that the principles of “righteousness” directs all of God’s relations with His creation. Simply stated, this implies that He always acts with “equality” in administrating justice/judgments. He is prohibited from exercising partiality or respect of persons in anything. Yet it seems that this is the one thing those who are ignorant of the manner in which God operates are quick to charge Him with doing, especially when it comes to the matter of administering the judgment of death which He imposed upon Adam’s body (and consequently, the off-spring of his “seed”). I think this is primarily attributed to a widespread misunderstanding of an oft-cited parable which Christ Jesus uttered concerning the fate of the dead (both the righteous as well as the wicked). I am speaking of the story of “a certain rich man and a certain beggar named Lazarus” (see Luke 16:19-31, KJV), for most believe this to depict a historical event rather than a parable. Here’s some of the reasons why it MUST be construed as a parable:

1.) Jesus Christ NEVER spake “openly” to any except His chosen disciples (see Matthew 13:34 & Mark 4:33, KJV). In the telling of this story He was speaking to the Pharisees (Luke 16:14).

2.) All judgments (and none shall have greater consequences than the destiny of the soul of man) are to be administered by the Son of man, NOT the Spirit (who is the Father) (John 5:22).

3.) God, who is without beginning or ending and therefore not limited by the restrictions imposed by time, alone possesses the ability to “calleth those things which be not as though they were” (see Romans 4:17, KJV).

4.) Satan and the other angels of his wicked band, “which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” (see Jude 6, KJV). Therefore if it were true, as many assume, that “a certain rich man” presently awaits final judgment in a state of “awareness” while being tormented by flames, then such an act would represent a direct violation of God’s righteousness; and this is something which He cannot do

When the “seed” from the male body enters the womb of the female, where there it will receive the needed nourishment as it “changes” its form to a human body; at that precise instance God causes another of the inanimate, invisible, eternal souls which He created in the beginning to indwell that “seed.” And thus begins that soul’s journey to its ultimate destiny, death and the accompanying of the body in which it resides as it returns to the dust of the ground from whence it came.

After the soul’s emergence from the womb and inhaling the “breath of life” into the physical body which is destined to be its eternal place of habitation, it then enjoys an indeterminate period of time (known only to God) in a state of "liveliness" upon the earth, during which it operates in perfect unison and harmony with its substantive body.

Immediately following its allotted time of “liveliness” upon the earth, God causes the removal of this “life giving energetic force” (i.e., the breath of life) from man’s body, at which time the soul returns to its former inanimate state or condition of reality. The language of the Scriptures often uses the phrase “giving/yielded up the ghost” to refer to this experience (see Genesis 25:8, 17; 35:29; Matthew 27:50; Acts 5:5; 12:23, KJV).

This inanimate, non-living state or condition of reality which the soul experiences following death is called “sleep,” or what many today call “soul sleep.” It is destined to remain in this inanimate condition or state of reality until that moment in the future, determined by and known only unto God, when it, together with the body in which it resides, will be restored and be compelled to stand in judgment before the Lord Jesus Christ (I will address this matter in greater depth later during this exposition).

To be continued .....

[Aquila]

Does not sound like they are enjoying their bliss does it? I guess for thousands of years all they do in Heaven is cry out for vengeance!

That's a very robotic view of the text that I don't buy into. The souls are clearly in the presence of the Lord (as Paul states, when one is absent from the body). These souls desire to see justice. They desire to see wickedness judged. They want to see the Kingdom manifest on earth.

[Aquila]

1. This is a vision, transmitted using 'signs' ('he signified it...') ie symbols.
2. He does not see the martyrs, he sees 'the souls' of martyrs.

Yes, their souls. We agree.

3. The 'souls' are crying out 'how long until we are avenged?'

They desire to see divine justice meted out against the wickedness of their persecutors.

4. According to Moses, 'the soul is in the blood'. Blood and soul are used synonymously in scripture as representing a person's life.

We read,

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

When God speaks of the "life" being in the blood, He is not saying that the "soul resides in the blood". Else one who looses a significant amount of blood would loose a significant amount of their soul. Besides, the term "soul" in the NT Greek has a more clear definition, the "soul", is the "psueche", or "psyche", the "mind" the seat of "reason, will, and emotion". The immaterial part of man. When God says that the "life of the flesh" is in the blood, He is saying simply that blood is a necessity for the life of the flesh. Clear, and simple. It doesn't speak of man's immaterial nature.

5. Abel's 'blood cried out' to God after he had been murdered. This is a direct parallel with the passage in Revelation. They say the say thing: When Abel was murdered, his 'blood cried out to God', ie his death demanded satisfaction and justice, ie vengeance from God, restitution and requittal against wickedness. The same thing with the martyrs, their murders demand satisfaction from God's judgement against sin.

Blood doesn't talk. Nor does it stand under God's altar in Heaven. The blood is said to "cry out" in a form of metaphor, it's a literary device, not an ontological statement. Blood is also not told to be patient. Nor is blood afforded a white robe.

6. Notice they are 'under the altar' (at the base), not in any mansions or parading on streets of gold. What is under the altar of sacrifice? According to the instructions in the Law, this is where the blood of the sacrifices were poured out. (see Ex 29:12, Lev 4:7, Lev 4:18, Lev 4:34, etc) Thus, in seeing the 'souls of martyrs under the altar' John is maintaining the typology of blood (which represents life) being poured out under the altar (or at the base of the altar) as a sacrifice to God.

First, again, the Scripture isn't robotic. We clearly see souls and angels gathered in Heaven around the throne. This doesn't mean that they don't have mansions. Also, the "mansions" and "streets of gold" are realities that will be experienced in the New Jerusalem, not the intermediate state. Their positioning under the altar does indeed symbolize their martyrdom being a holy sacrifice of obedience to the Lord, but this doesn't mean that we are to deny them as being a living reality.

7. Rev 20 proves these martyrs were not then, in ch 6, ALIVE, for it is not until ch 20 (at the FIRST RESURRECTION) that the martyrs 'come alive'. Furthermore, NONE of the rest of the dead were alive at that time until THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT. Therefore, the martyrs of Rev 6:9 are not then currently ALIVE.

Again, one has to think categorically, and consider the whole of Scripture. The issue in Revelation is God's victory over the saints oppressors. Therefore, the martyrs specifically mentioned in Revelation 6 are remembered and described as being raised from the dead to "live again" in Revelation 20. In actuality, this is another strong point in favor of recognizing the martyrs as personal realities rather than merely symbols representing the abstract meaning of "blood".

Much misunderstanding is possible when people do not maintain consistency in studying Scripture. The typology of Abel, the manner of speaking that the Bible uses in referring to 'his blood cries out', the blood of sacrifices being poured out under the altar according to the Law, all these inform the reader when he/she reads Revelation 6:9 (or should, if they have been studying their Bible). And the message of Revelation 6:9 is then made clear. It is not that 'those who die are alive in heaven immediately upon death', the message of Rev 6:9 is that those who are murdered for the sake of the gospel are well-known to God, will not be forgotten, and will REST until the time of Judgement. Their deaths will be vindicated, their faithful sacrifice for the sake of the Lord will be remembered, they did not die in vain.

You're taking a metaphor that was applied to Able's blood and transferring it's meaning all the way to a book written thousands of years later to apply it to an entirely different passage. We can't do that. For example, we read that the blind man who received only part of his sight back upon his first touch saw men "as trees". Some Bible expositors have plucked this reference out of it's context in the Gospels and applied it to the passage in Revelation wherein a third of "all green things" are burned up. Their conclusion... a third of men are burned up. This is a glaring hermeneutical error. The passage wherein a man sees "men as trees" and the apocalyptic passage wherein a plague of fire burns up a third of all "green things" are absolutely unrelated (just as Able's blood and the pleas of the martyrs).

Rather you like it or not... the context of the Revelation (without using any other text to twist it up be it "men as trees" or a reference to Able's blood "crying out") demands that we realize that the souls of the martyrs are very much still alive in the presence of the Lord, in Heaven. They desire to see justice meted out against the wickedness of their persecutors. Their thirst for justice coincides with their desire to see all wickedness vanquished and the Kingdom come. Their final destiny is seen in Revelation 20 wherein they are raised from the dead and reign with Christ during the Millennium.

So... if the martyrs of Revelation are symbolic of the blood spilled (as with Able)... I'm sure we can use "men as trees" to claim that the passage regarding a third of all green things being burned up is about a third of mankind being burned up. I wonder... how else could the Revelation be twisted from it's original meaning using other texts to redefine it's rather clear passages?

[Lafon]

Albeit God is not a respecter of persons, and His righteousness demands that the consequences of the judgment of death which he imposed upon Adam’s flesh be equally applied to each soul whom He has created (see Hebrews 9:27, KJV), nevertheless there exists an extremely critical, and mysterious element inherent in the application of this judgment that most fail to recognize. I am referring specifically to the words which apostle Paul was inspired of God to record in I Corinthians 15:51, to wit ... ”Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.” (Please bear in mind that this statement is applicable ONLY to the righteous, and NOT to the wicked.)

Most, and unfortunately, the majority of the members of the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal Church, have been guilty of misrepresenting that which Paul wrote, proclaiming that he was stating that there would be “some” to whom God would grant an “exemption” from the common consequences of the judgment of death, that is, the “sleep of death” (see Psalm 13:3, KJV). If such were the case then it would mean that God was violating His own established guiding principle of righteousness by exempting some while compelling all others to undergo this experience. In fact, nothing could be farther from the truth, for this is NOT what Paul was asserting at all! Well, if not that then what was he endeavoring to have us to know? (I’m so glad you asked :), so please allow me to explain.)

According to the words of such scriptural passages as Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 ”For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; ..., we are made to know that the souls of the dead, regardless of whether they be righteous or wicked, are completely unaware of events which transpire in the world all the while they remain inanimate in the unconscious state of reality of the “sleep of death.” For this reason the passage of time is of NO consequence to the dead, for in fact, they are unaware of all things, not even knowing that they have experienced death!

The point Paul was making in his statement of I Corinthians 15:51 was NOT that God grants an “exemption” to any from experiencing the affects of dead (i.e., the “sleep of death”), rather he was saying that God has granted the very special and unique privilege to “some” of “temporarily” suspending this affect, and instead causing their invisible eternal soul to become disembodied and brought into His presence in the holy city of heaven; where there they would remain (in an awakened state of reality) UNTIL that future moment when the resurrection of the righteous dead would occur. Then at time these souls must also return to their mortal bodies, which in their absence had returned to the dust of the earth, at which time they will also experience the "sleep of death," after which they, like all of the other righteous souls whose dead mortal bodies, would be resurrected to life and undergo a “changing” from mortality to immortality. Immediately following this “changing” these righteous souls would be summoned by the call of the Lord and transported by the angels into His presence upon the clouds of heaven.

Because the souls of the rest of the dead are rendered unconscious (i.e., unaware of all things, even the passage of time) during the entire period of time they rest inanimate together with their mortal substantive bodies in the dust of the earth, then God is NOT violating His righteousness by granting such a "temporary reprieve" from the affects of death to the members of this select group of saints whom He has chosen.

Because Paul had been given the assurance that he was to be among this select group of saints to whom this special privilege was extended, is why we find him writing in II Corinthians 5:8 (referring to himself and the other members of this group): ”We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” He made this fact even more explicit when he penned the following in his letter to the saints of the first century church at Phillipi: ”For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you” (see Philippians 1:21-24, KJV).

Perhaps some would say, “Does the language of the Bible disclose the identity of the other members of such a group?” And the answer is yes, it does, and perhaps because of the mysterious esoteric nature of the language of the Bible that's used to refer to such individuals, only contributes to the depth of the misunderstanding among many of the saints of God about this matter! Lets consider whom just a few of these others are.

To be continued .....

[Carl]

Greetings! I'm an old lurker on this site and finally had to join the discussion. Please explain your fourth paragraph. (I've never before heard this idea. Is there any scripture to back this up? If I understand correctly you are saying certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body and at some future time then die and return to the body only to then be resurrected?) Also the 5th verse of II Corinthians is constantly misunderstood. If the entire chapter is considered leading up to that verse, it is certain that Paul is saying he would rather be absent from the body to be present in his new body with the Lord. Thus the resurrection! He makes the distinction between the old and new bodies just as in the 15th chapter of I Corinthians does. The bible does not support the idea of disembodied spirits or souls or the assembly line of eternal souls as your previous post described. What a tortured existence that would be to have consciousness without a body to manifest the personality of the soul.

[shazeep]

Hmm, i would say that Scripture gives many examples of this? or at least some?

[Lafon]

Correction to Post #94 (Lafon @ 4:19 PM, Friday, January 31, 2014) ....

It appears I inadvertently failed to include several important words in the following sentence (please note its CAPITALIZATION in the edited version) ...

Then at THAT time these souls must also return to their mortal bodies, which in their absence had returned to the dust of the earth, at which time they will also experience the "sleep of death," after which they, like all of the other righteous souls whose dead mortal bodies ,HAD ALSO RETURNED TO THE DUST OF THE EARTH FOLLOWING THEIR DEMISE, would be resurrected to life and undergo a “changing” from mortality to immortality.

[Lafon]

Hmm, i would say that Scripture gives many examples of this? or at least some?

:highfive SPOT ON! (As I think you'll recognize, and also concur, by the things I hope to include in my next posting) :nod

[Carl]

Actually the few examples always given are anomalies to the truth. Samuel, Saul and the witch and the old testament figures on the Mount of Transfiguration are those most cited. God can bring anyone back at any time for any purpose if he so desires. In fact they were seen in a physical body. (How could someone who is disembodied be seen?)They weren't spooks. Should we form a doctrine and apply it to the whole human race based on these isolated instances?

[Praxeas]

Greetings! I'm an old lurker on this site and finally had to join the discussion. Please explain your fourth paragraph. (I've never before heard this idea. Is there any scripture to back this up? If I understand correctly you are saying certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body and at some future time then die and return to the body only to then be resurrected?) Also the 5th verse of II Corinthians is constantly misunderstood. If the entire chapter is considered leading up to that verse, it is certain that Paul is saying he would rather be absent from the body to be present in his new body with the Lord. Thus the resurrection! He makes the distinction between the old and new bodies just as in the 15th chapter of I Corinthians does. The bible does not support the idea of disembodied spirits or souls or the assembly line of eternal souls as your previous post described. What a tortured existence that would be to have consciousness without a body to manifest the personality of the soul.
Carl, please use the quote button to quote people so we know who you are responding to and what they said. The quote button is the Yellow box that looks like a quote box from a cartoon

[Praxeas]

Actually the few examples always given are anomalies to the truth. Samuel, Saul and the witch and the old testament figures on the Mount of Transfiguration are those most cited. God can bring anyone back at any time for any purpose if he so desires. In fact they were seen in a physical body. (How could someone who is disembodied be seen?)They weren't spooks. Should we form a doctrine and apply it to the whole human race based on these isolated instances?
Samuel did not appear as a physical being.

Angels are spirits and also take manifested forms

Elijah was taken up to heaven..

BTW the transfiguration is said to have been a vision.

[Michael The Disciple]

Greetings! I'm an old lurker on this site and finally had to join the discussion. Please explain your fourth paragraph. (I've never before heard this idea. Is there any scripture to back this up? If I understand correctly you are saying certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body and at some future time then die and return to the body only to then be resurrected?) Also the 5th verse of II Corinthians is constantly misunderstood. If the entire chapter is considered leading up to that verse, it is certain that Paul is saying he would rather be absent from the body to be present in his new body with the Lord. Thus the resurrection! He makes the distinction between the old and new bodies just as in the 15th chapter of I Corinthians does. The bible does not support the idea of disembodied spirits or souls or the assembly line of eternal souls as your previous post described. What a tortured existence that would be to have consciousness without a body to manifest the personality of the soul.

Greetings Carl,

Very well put.

[Praxeas]

If the entire chapter is considered leading up to that verse, it is certain that Paul is saying he would rather be absent from the body to be present in his new body with the Lord. .
Show us where he said "rather"

[Lafon]

Greetings! I'm an old lurker on this site and finally had to join the discussion. Please explain your fourth paragraph. (I've never before heard this idea. Is there any scripture to back this up? If I understand correctly you are saying certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body and at some future time then die and return to the body only to then be resurrected?) Also the 5th verse of II Corinthians is constantly misunderstood. If the entire chapter is considered leading up to that verse, it is certain that Paul is saying he would rather be absent from the body to be present in his new body with the Lord. Thus the resurrection! He makes the distinction between the old and new bodies just as in the 15th chapter of I Corinthians does. The bible does not support the idea of disembodied spirits or souls or the assembly line of eternal souls as your previous post described. What a tortured existence that would be to have consciousness without a body to manifest the personality of the soul.


Greetings Carl, and welcome to the forum (& this discussion)!

No, you're not reading what I wrote correctly, for I never said, nor do I believe that "certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body and at some future time then die and return to the body only to then be resurrected." That implies Paul and the others to whom I referred to as being a member of a select group of saints, must die two times, and that is NOT what I wrote! In fact, seeing that these had not experienced the affect of death upon the demise of their mortal bodies, they have, in all reality, never known what death's affects entail, but MUST do so prior to the coming resurrection of the righteous dead.

If you will carefully re-read what I wrote you should discover that my statements concerning Paul, being a member of a very select group of saints to whom God would grant a unique privilege that is not granted to all, realized a "temporary reprieve" from the common affect which death brings, that is, "the sleep of death." This is to say that this "temporary reprieve" from death's affect would only remain in effect UNTIL the 2nd Advent of Christ Jesus.

At that moment (the 2nd Advent of the Son of man), these souls MUST return to their former mortal bodies, with this action taking place so that they can join together with all of the righteous dead at the coming first resurrection, at which time they will undergo the changing of their mortal bodies to one that are immortal.

And yes, there are several examples of others in the scriptural record who have been, or will be, granted this same unique privilege. This is a great mystery that many have failed to search the scriptures to learn about. I believe the time has arrived when this knowledge (which I am fully persuaded the Lord has shown to me and that I am attempting to post on this forum) must be made known to all of God's chosen people, and in that process (hopefully) many will become aware of the numerous errors concerning the matter that has heretofore been embraced and widely propagated as truth (when, in fact, it is not).

As we read Matthew's gospel record which describes those events that took place atop "a high mountain apart" (a phrase used to refer to the kingdom of God located in the heavens), when our Lord was "transfigured," I believe it important to note the circumstances surrounding the deaths of the two men with whom Peter, James, and John his brother witnessed Him talking about His impending death, that is, Moses and Elijah. In Deuteronomy 34:5-6 we find it written that Moses died, an that it was God Himself who buried his mortal body. How could Moses be "alive" and participating in a verbal discourse with our Lord if it be that his soul had remained present with his dead body whenever the LORD buried it? Simply stated, for this to have taken place as Matthew wrote, and as Peter, James, and John his brother witnessed, then Moses' soul had to have been removed and taken to be present with Him in the heavens.

Although the scriptural record doesn't explicitly state that the prophet Elijah experienced the "common" death, this MUST be inferred for the words of Hebrews 9:27 doesn't grant such an exemption to anyone. But what was it that the prophet Elisha witnessed when "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (II Kings 2:11, KJV)? Most assuredly it was NOT Elijah's mortal body, for Jesus Christ Himself made it explicitly clear that "NO man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven," (John 3:13, KJV). Apostle Paul gave credence to our Lord's statement about the matter when he wrote "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption (i.e., mortal human flesh) inherit incorruption" (II Corinthians 15:50, KJV, Emphasis Added).

Now, besides all this, there is absolutely nothing within Paul's statement of II Corinthians 5:8, or any other in which he writes about this matter, that either assert, suggest, or otherwise intimate that Paul was saying that following the death of his mortal body he would rather "be present in his new body with the Lord" as you've written. Such a conclusion is not only erroneous but reeks of being nothing more than speculative nonsense! The ONLY human that has ever undergone a "changing" of their mortal fleshly body into one of heavenly substance, and is present in the heavenly city, is our Lord, Christ Jesus, the Son of man.

I hope to have more to say about this matter in the days ahead, the Lord be willing.

[KeptByTheWord]

If you will carefully re-read what I wrote you should discover that my statements concerning Paul, being a member of a very select group of saints to whom God would grant a unique privilege that is not granted to all, realized a "temporary reprieve" from the common affect which death brings, that is, "the sleep of death." This is to say that this "temporary reprieve" from death's affect would only remain in effect UNTIL the 2nd Advent of Christ Jesus.
What group of people make up this group of people you mention in the above bolded? What scriptures have led you to arrive at such a conclusion?

[Carl]

Samuel did not appear as a physical being.
Actually he did since he came out of the ground and appeared as an old man with a mantle. If he did not appear physically he would not have been seen. The witch was probably expecting to conjure up a demon who sounded like Samuel or impersonate him herself. She and Saul did not expect Samuel to appear. Also Samuel informed Saul that he and his sons would die in battle and be with him that next day. Where would they be with Samuel? In the grave of course. Unless Saul was saved and went to heaven.
Angels are spirits and also take manifested forms
I agree. But I joined the discussion because it was about the issue of our existing without a body after death. The term disembodied usually refers to those who have previously existed with a body but now without.
Elijah was taken up to heaven..
Right, but with his body. This is why he appeared in the transfiguration. He is a type of the believer who is translated at the Lord's coming while alive, whereas Moses is a type of the believer who is dead and in the grave at his coming and is resurrected and translated. They both are given glorified bodies.
BTW the transfiguration is said to have been a vision.
If the transfiguration is only a vision then Moses and Elijah were not really there and that event would not be proof of the intermediate state.
Hey thanks a lot for the response, this is fun!

[Carl]

Greetings Carl, and welcome to the forum (& this discussion)!

No, you're not reading what I wrote correctly, for I never said, nor do I believe that "certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body and at some future time then die and return to the body only to then be resurrected." That implies Paul and the others to whom I referred to as being a member of a select group of saints, must die two times, and that is NOT what I wrote! In fact, seeing that these had not experienced the affect of death upon the demise of their mortal bodies, they have, in all reality, never known what death's affects entail, but MUST do so prior to the coming resurrection of the righteous dead.

If you will carefully re-read what I wrote you should discover that my statements concerning Paul, being a member of a very select group of saints to whom God would grant a unique privilege that is not granted to all, realized a "temporary reprieve" from the common affect which death brings, that is, "the sleep of death." This is to say that this "temporary reprieve" from death's affect would only remain in effect UNTIL the 2nd Advent of Christ Jesus.

At that moment (the 2nd Advent of the Son of man), these souls MUST return to their former mortal bodies, with this action taking place so that they can join together with all of the righteous dead at the coming first resurrection, at which time they will undergo the changing of their mortal bodies to one that are immortal.

And yes, there are several examples of others in the scriptural record who have been, or will be, granted this same unique privilege. This is a great mystery that many have failed to search the scriptures to learn about. I believe the time has arrived when this knowledge (which I am fully persuaded the Lord has shown to me and that I am attempting to post on this forum) must be made known to all of God's chosen people, and in that process (hopefully) many will become aware of the numerous errors concerning the matter that has heretofore been embraced and widely propagated as truth (when, in fact, it is not).

As we read Matthew's gospel record which describes those events that took place atop "a high mountain apart" (a phrase used to refer to the kingdom of God located in the heavens), when our Lord was "transfigured," I believe it important to note the circumstances surrounding the deaths of the two men with whom Peter, James, and John his brother witnessed Him talking about His impending death, that is, Moses and Elijah. In Deuteronomy 34:5-6 we find it written that Moses died, an that it was God Himself who buried his mortal body. How could Moses be "alive" and participating in a verbal discourse with our Lord if it be that his soul had remained present with his dead body whenever the LORD buried it? Simply stated, for this to have taken place as Matthew wrote, and as Peter, James, and John his brother witnessed, then Moses' soul had to have been removed and taken to be present with Him in the heavens.

Although the scriptural record doesn't explicitly state that the prophet Elijah experienced the "common" death, this MUST be inferred for the words of Hebrews 9:27 doesn't grant such an exemption to anyone. But what was it that the prophet Elisha witnessed when "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (II Kings 2:11, KJV)? Most assuredly it was NOT Elijah's mortal body, for Jesus Christ Himself made it explicitly clear that "NO man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven," (John 3:13, KJV). Apostle Paul gave credence to our Lord's statement about the matter when he wrote "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption (i.e., mortal human flesh) inherit incorruption" (II Corinthians 15:50, KJV, Emphasis Added).

Now, besides all this, there is absolutely nothing within Paul's statement of II Corinthians 5:8, or any other in which he writes about this matter, that either assert, suggest, or otherwise intimate that Paul was saying that following the death of his mortal body he would rather "be present in his new body with the Lord" as you've written. Such a conclusion is not only erroneous but reeks of being nothing more than speculative nonsense! The ONLY human that has ever undergone a "changing" of their mortal fleshly body into one of heavenly substance, and is present in the heavenly city, is our Lord, Christ Jesus, the Son of man.

I hope to have more to say about this matter in the days ahead, the Lord be willing.

Thanks Lafon for your response! In II Corinthians chapter 5 Paul actually was talking about the resurrection in which his old body would be changed. In fact he says we do not desire to be naked or unclothed. To paraphrase, he could have said disembodied. I think this is the best scripture in the bible to disprove any disembodied existence. So he desired to be absent from the old body but present with the Lord in his new, glorified body at the Lord's return/appearing. He uses the terms house, tent, habitation in this discussion of the two types of bodies. This is a good follow up to the same things he said in I Cor. chapter 15 regarding the old and new bodies.

[Carl]

Show us where he said "rather"

Verse 8. But it is obviously not referring to a disembodied intermediate existence because in verses 3&4 he explains we don't want to be naked or unclothed but rather clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life. What kind of life? Life immortal, which we receive at his coming when our bodies are changed.

[Michael The Disciple]

Thanks Lafon for your response! In II Corinthians chapter 5 Paul actually was talking about the resurrection in which his old body would be changed. In fact he says we do not desire to be naked or unclothed. To paraphrase, he could have said disembodied. I think this is the best scripture in the bible to disprove any disembodied existence. So he desired to be absent from the old body but present with the Lord in his new, glorified body at the Lord's return/appearing. He uses the terms house, tent, habitation in this discussion of the two types of bodies. This is a good follow up to the same things he said in I Cor. chapter 15 regarding the old and new bodies.

So sound, especially in the light of the fact that no one is accepted by Christ into immortality before the judgment day. That's why Paul said we labor to be ACCEPTED BY HIM.

[Abiding Now]

So, I'm not gonna have a new mansion next door to Jesus on a street of gold? Bummer.

[Praxeas]

If the transfiguration is only a vision then Moses and Elijah were not really there and that event would not be proof of the intermediate state.
Hey thanks a lot for the response, this is fun!
Im not sure I would quote it as proof.

However, being a vision does not mean they did not exist. Jesus was there in the vision too.

[Praxeas]

Verse 8. But it is obviously not referring to a disembodied intermediate existence because in verses 3&4 he explains we don't want to be naked or unclothed but rather clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life. What kind of life? Life immortal, which we receive at his coming when our bodies are changed.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

I'd rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord too but I don't see how that shows that being absent from the body is to be with the Lord...

Compared to

2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,

to NOT be absent from the body is to be away from the Lord.

And since what we wait for is the resurrection of our bodies and transformed into Glorified Bodies vs 3&4 just confirm what I've already said, the totality of our hope and our reward is not simply to be with the Lord away from our bodies but to be with the Lord IN our new bodies.

How can we, "rather" desire to be away from our bodies and be with the Lord instead when it's those bodies that are going to be resurrected?

[Praxeas]

So sound, especially in the light of the fact that no one is accepted by Christ into immortality before the judgment day. That's why Paul said we labor to be ACCEPTED BY HIM.
You are confusing having an immortal body with continued existence outside of the body...which that verse actually proves even if it was merely a desire of Pauls...why would he include the idea of having to be absent from the body in order to be present with the Lord?

[Michael The Disciple]

You are confusing having an immortal body with continued existence outside of the body...which that verse actually proves even if it was merely a desire of Pauls...why would he include the idea of having to be absent from the body in order to be present with the Lord?

Because immortality begins when we are resurrected with a new immortal body. That's what he is teaching.

[Praxeas]

Because immortality begins when we are resurrected with a new immortal body. That's what he is teaching.
No..immortal bodies is being taught.

So, just to be clear. Everyone that has died up until now have ceased to exist? We can't say where they are because something that ceases to exist is not in a location. It doesn't exist anymore at all.

[shazeep]

What group of people make up this group of people you mention in the above bolded? What scriptures have led you to arrive at such a conclusion?i have to agree there; while Scripture may only give hints of this, i am convinced that one may not 'become' an Apostle.

[Carl]

Now, besides all this, there is absolutely nothing within Paul's statement of II Corinthians 5:8, or any other in which he writes about this matter, that either assert, suggest, or otherwise intimate that Paul was saying that following the death of his mortal body he would rather "be present in his new body with the Lord" as you've written. Such a conclusion is not only erroneous but reeks of being nothing more than speculative nonsense! The ONLY human that has ever undergone a "changing" of their mortal fleshly body into one of heavenly substance, and is present in the heavenly city, is our Lord, Christ Jesus, the Son of man.


Sir, I feel you owe me a big apology as it appears you did not read my comments. I mentioned the resurrection. This is the hope of every Christian as it was of Paul. As we all face death we also have a hope of a bodily resurrection to immortality. Paul's writings are full of this hope so I would be very careful about referring to it as erroneous or speculative nonsense!

[Aquila]

If the transfiguration is only a vision then Moses and Elijah were not really there and that event would not be proof of the intermediate state.

Hey thanks a lot for the response, this is fun!

lol

That's the problem with this point of view. It makes what is clear and present only a "vision" and that discounts the very reality of the event.

[Aquila]

I think I'd like to bring up something that might be controversial, but for me it can pertain to this subject. In the OT we have a very mysterious prophecy given:

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

Now, it's important to note that Elijah had not been in the earth for several hundred years when Malachi wrote this. Please note, God Himself promises to send "Elijah the prophet". Note, God doesn't promise to send "one like unto Elijah". For the Jews, this has been a mysterious prophecy that has led them to await the coming of Elijah, the one who would appear before the Messiah.

In the NT we read something peculiar about John the Baptist prior to his birth...

Luke 1:17
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Here, it sounds like John will operate in the "spirit and power of Elias" (Grk. Elijah). When questioning Jesus the Disciples asked...

Matthew 17:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Also, we read that Jesus said...

Matthew 11:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Interestingly, John denied being Elijah...

John 1:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

... interestingly, even John didn't know that he was the coming Elijah.

What do we make out of this? There is a Jewish believe that few know about or truly understand. It is a belief known as "Gilgul". The Jewish understanding was that God may have a mission for a given spirit that would take more than one lifetime to fulfill. Therefore, God would essentially "reincarnate" that soul (for lack of a better term). This mission, calling, or destiny was part of what is known as "tikkun". It was commonly believed that the prophets would return in later incarnations. We see a hint of this in the NT when John is questioned:

Matthew 16:14
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Notice... they are pondering the possibility that John (whose parents and childhood was known) was Elijah, Jeremiah, or "one of the prophets". This statement reveals that the first century Jewish community did indeed believe in "Gilgul".

Now here's an interesting question... if the soul/spirit of a human being "sleeps" with their body in death... how could John have also been Elijah? God promised...

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

That's "Elijah the prophet"... not another. The Jews understood this and embraced it. Those who are downright afraid of mysterious teachings recoil from this reality. But the ultimate issue with the traditional interpretation here is that if God didn't actually send "Elijah the prophet" back... He lied. And since Jesus clearly tells us that John was the expected Elijah, we have to embrace the reality that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated. If the soul sleeps or dies with the body... this would be an impossibility.

Behold, I have shown you a mystery. He that has ears... let him hear.

[Aquila]

Because immortality begins when we are resurrected with a new immortal body. That's what he is teaching.

But either way... no one would ever be "absent" from their bodies if you are correct. Remember, we shall be "changed". Mortality puts on immortality. If you're right... we're never absent from our bodies.

[Aquila]

Christian materialists are only focused on what they can "see" with the natural eyes.

[Lafon]

Never has a more truer statement been written than that of the writer of Hebrews, who penned that he had ”many things to say, and (they were) hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when the time (has come that) ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God” (Heb. 5:10-11, KJV, Emphasis Added). And what are the ”first principles of the oracles of God” the writer mentioned. He enumerated them in the opening passages of chapter 6:

a.) The foundation of repentance from dead works
b.) Faith toward God
c.) Baptisms (note plurality of this word, indicating baptism of water & Spirit)
d.) Laying on of hands
e.) Resurrection of the dead
f.) Eternal judgment

And which of these elementary/fundamental principles of the teaching of Christ (i.e., the first principles of the oracles of God) does there exist the most significant degree of misunderstanding among the members of the contemporary Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal church? It is none other than those teachings which comprise the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. It seems we Oneness Apostolics are able to agree among ourselves with regards to the things that are proclaimed as truth about all of these, but yet disagree significantly when it comes to those principles which comprise this one doctrine. Why is this so, one must wonder. Well, I am persuaded that the answer is found in the very things which I have been writing about so far (and, believe me, I’ve only begun to “scratch the surface” of all the things that should be said).

In the apostle Peter’s 2nd epistle, he noted the primary purpose for his writing: ”Yea, I think it meet as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me” (1:13-14). Was not he stating that he knew he would shortly undergo the experience of death, at which time his soul would be removed from his physical body? Absolutely! And by Peter’s statement we must extrapolate that he was identifying himself as a member of that select group of saints to whom God would grant the unique privilege of “temporarily suspending” the common affect of death, that is, “the sleep of death,” UNTIL that future moment of His 2nd advent.

Yet it was because of Peter’s impending death (and of the departure of his soul to go to be present with the Lord in the heavens), that he desired to remind us to we be ever diligent about retaining in our memory some things which he believed to be of great importance, especially ”the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of the apostles” about these two things: ”the last days” and ”the promise of his coming” (see 3:1-4). (Yes, these are but some of the principles which comprise the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.)

In the closing portion of this 2nd epistle of Peter, he noted that Paul has written about these same matters ”also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction” (see 3:16).

Oh, how so many like to use these words when referring to our Trinitarian friends and their lack of understanding the truth, yet apparently fail to realize that Peter’s words were truly meant for folks like ourselves! We seem to enjoy debating amongst ourselves about the things which the prophets of olden times, as well as the chosen apostles of Jesus Christ, wrote about the events of ”the last days” and ”the promise of his coming,” all the while failing to realize that in so doing we are actually engaging in a “wrestling match” about such matters, and doing so to our own (possible) destruction!

Thus the question arises, What was it that the apostle Paul also wrote about “these things,” that is, the events of ”the last days” and ”the promise of his coming” that we are “wresting” with? Lets expend a while in examining what is perhaps the most significant of them, that is, the disparity of opinions concerning Paul’s statements about the resurrection of the dead that are recorded in his very 1st epistle, I Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Here we discover Paul opening his explanatory remarks about this matter by saying, ”For THIS we say unto by the word of the Lord” (vs #15). Here Paul is appealing to the words which the Lord had previously spoken concerning the statements which he was about to make. And what was “this” of which he was about to state? It was ”that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.” In essence, what Paul has stated here was that himself, as well as all those to whom God had granted the unique privilege of enjoying the “temporary suspension” of the affects of the common death (i.e., “the sleep of death”), would not be granted “preference” in the coming resurrection of the righteous dead over/above those saints whose souls were "asleep."

(Note: When one writes in the ‘first person,’ as Paul here was doing, and employs the word “we,” then it implies that person is including themself as being an integral part of that which they are writing about. Had Paul NOT meant to be including himself, then he would have had to use such words as “them, they, or those,” but he didn’t do that.)

Now the important question comes to the fore: Where is it found written in the scriptures that the Lord explicitly stated He would grant a “temporary suspension” to the affect which death imposes upon the soul to a select group of His saints: a privilege which would terminate at that future moment of the 2nd advent of our Lord Jesus Christ? We find the answer recorded (in explicit language) at three locations in the gospels - Matthew 16:27-28; Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27. Lets examine them now.

When Christ Jesus was conducting a private discourse with His chosen apostles, and telling them of His second coming, He said, “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.” And then He added these important, and extremely revealing words: ”Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall NOT taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (Matthew 16:27-28, KJV, Emphasis Added). (The word “taste” here implies “experience” or “feel.”)

Please note that our Lord did NOT say that there would be “some” of these chosen disciples who would be given an “exemption” from the common experience of death, rather He stated that the “temporary suspension” from death’s affect (the "sleep of death"), would only remain effective “until” the time of His second coming. Should God ever grant an “exemption” from death’s affect (completely) to any, then it would mean that He had willfully violated His established guiding principle of righteousness (equal administration of justice), and this He simply cannot, and will not ever do!

The second thing we must note about the words which our Lord used in speaking of this matter, was that He explicitly asserted that this “temporary suspension” from death’s affect would not be applicable to ALL of those to whom He was speaking (that is, His inner circle of disciples, whom He called apostles), but that it only applied to “some.” Why did He use this word, and who was to be excluded? The answer is rather simple: Judas Iscariot was present on this occasion, therefore its only logical to conclude that he would not be given this unique privilege.

In my next posting, wherein I shall seek to address this matter further, I want to expend some time examining the (possible, and most likely) identities of some of the souls whom the apostle John saw when he was given visions of those things which are in heaven (i.e., those seated upon the 24 thrones around the throne of God, as well as the souls which were under the altar located there).

[Aquila]

Jesus to the thief:

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

"Today", that very day.

It is indeed possible to leave the body and experience heavenly realities, or Paul wouldn't have written:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
English Standard Version (ESV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

[Timmy]

lol. Just sayin'.

[Aquila]

Countless first hand accounts of various individuals demonstrate consciousness after death. We call these "near death experiences". Many report that they were floating above their bodies as medical staff worked on them feverishly because they had no pulse and were not breathing for an extended period of time. Many can recount who was in the room and even what they were wearing. Some have reported even hearing their thoughts through subtle impressions. Many have felt drawn, or carried, into a long tunnel towards a light unlike any light they have seen on earth. They remember a "life review" wherein even their thoughts and intents were laid open to be examined. Some have seen family and loved ones who had passed. Sometimes, without even knowing that those family members had passed. Many were warned, many told that there was more work to be done on earth. Some report very disturbing experiences wherein the "descended" into darkness and encountered terrible spiritual entities that were pure evil. Suddenly their experiences end with being propelled back into their bodies with force or suddenly they find themselves waking up. What's interesting is that many who are of non-Christian traditions describe the same experience. Some even describe a being who is very similar to Jesus and very unlike the gods of their native religions.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
English Standard Version (ESV)
15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 (ESV)
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

Please note, when it speaks of Jesus, "who alone has immortality", it is speak of Jesus being the only man in a glorified body at this point. Remember, Christ is the first fruit of the Resurrection.

[Aquila]

We forget that man is a trifold being. We are body, soul, and spirit. When one dies their body sleeps in the earth. Therefore, it can be said that the person is sleeping. However, the soul continues on and is absent from the body and is, as Paul stated, present with the Lord. Thus one could say that they are sleeping... and this would be correct. Or one could say that they are present with the Lord... and this also would be correct.

The materialist refuses to embrace spiritual realities.

[Aquila]

Men cannot "kill the soul", thus the soul doesn't entire a state of death upon physical death:

Matthew 10:28 ESV
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Please note, the term "destroy" here is taken by some Annihilationists to mean that God destroys the soul in Hell. However, it doesn't say that God will, it states that God can. In addition the word for "destroy" can also mean, "to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed". In that a ship is "destroyed" when it sinks, but it doesn't cease to be. A person can be said to be "destroyed" figuratively after a terrible tragedy, for example, "The loss of her husband destroyed her."

Jesus returns, and just prior to the resurrection, we read...

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

They are definitely not sleeping.

The spirit is not subject to needing flesh and bone:

Luke 24:39-40 ESV
See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

The rich man and Lazarus continued to experience conscious reality after death:

Luke 16:19-31 ESV
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Regarding his looming execution Paul writes,

Philippians 1:23 ESV
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

One who is asleep in the grave can hardly be said to be with Christ, who is very much alive.

Paul also wrote that, "to die is gain", not "sleep":

Philippians 1:21 ESV
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

The souls of the martyrs are very much awake:


Revelation 6:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Notice, it isn't their blood calling out. It is themselves. In fact, they refer to desiring to see their blood avenged. Then white robes are given unto them and they are told to rest for a little season, until their "fellowservants" and also their "brethren", that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. These are described vividly as personal realities who have desires, a sense of justice, a sense of time, speak of their own blood, are given robes, and referred to as having brethren. They are indeed living "souls" in Heaven.

[Lafon]

Most people, when confronted with truths to which they've never been exposed to before, seek to find arguments which they believe justifies the continuation of that which they've always believed about a matter. Few there be that are able, or willing, to set aside, at least temporarily, their beliefs when confronted with the "allegation" that they are wrong, so that they may "objectively" consider its merits, therefore they continue to embrace their "old" belief, not certain whether its scripturally sound or not. Such is the case when it comes to the matters under discussion in this thread.

[Aquila]

Most people, when confronted with truths to which they've never been exposed to before, seek to find arguments which they believe justifies the continuation of that which they've always believed about a matter. Few there be that are able, or willing, to set aside, at least temporarily, their beliefs when confronted with the "allegation" that they are wrong, so that they may "objectively" consider its merits, therefore they continue to embrace their "old" belief, not certain whether its scripturally sound or not. Such is the case when it comes to the matters under discussion in this thread.

Brother, Christian materialism fails to see the spiritual element of man. Paul clearly states that it is possible to be ABSENT from the body and to be PRESENT with the Lord. Your position states that one cannot be "absent" from the body. In addition, it flatly denies that one can be "present with the Lord" while "absent" from the body.

The problem is... you're defining the NT with the limited vision of the OT. Instead, you should accept the NT and turn and interpret the OT through the finished work of Redemption. The NT shares far far more about the intermediate state than the OT. And rightfully so... God was with us in the NT, in Christ Jesus. In the OT the hereafter was rather mysterious and unknown. In the NT God reveals that which was unknown.

[Aquila]

All I know is that these cats are going to be very surprised when they die and realize that they are not turned off like little computers. They will feel really silly when they begin to realize the presence of angelic realities and even the presence of loved ones who have gone on... not to mention... how surprised they will be when they are drawn before God and enter the Heavenly courts wherein the saints are celebrating and worshipping, waiting for their resurrection.

[Aquila]

When one is arrested, they are confined. They await trial. At the end of the trial, the final verdict is handed down. If convicted... it's off to prison.

Same thing... the intermediate state is a place wherein the soul resides in spiritual bliss or confinement, souls in both realities awaiting their final judgment.

[Lafon]

Sir, I feel you owe me a big apology as it appears you did not read my comments. I mentioned the resurrection. This is the hope of every Christian as it was of Paul. As we all face death we also have a hope of a bodily resurrection to immortality. Paul's writings are full of this hope so I would be very careful about referring to it as erroneous or speculative nonsense!

Sorry, my friend, I do not believe an apology is in order. Here' why:

Yes, I did both read, and again just finished re-reading your comments. You wrote,

"If I understand correctly you are saying certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body and at some future time then die and return to the body only to then be resurrected?) Also the 5th verse of II Corinthians is constantly misunderstood. If the entire chapter is considered leading up to that verse, it is certain that Paul is saying he would rather be absent from the body to be present in his new body with the Lord. Thus the resurrection!"

What were you referring to when you mentioned "the 5th verse of II Corinthians"? Seeing that there are 13 chapters in the epistle of II Corinthians, and each has a 5th verse, then its difficult, if not altogether impossible, for me to "speculate" as to which you're referencing. The only one that I could imagine it being is found in the 12th chapter, but even then Paul was not writing about death or the resurrection of the dead, rather he was telling of a time when he was caught up to paradise, but even then he was unable to determine whether that entailed him being taken there bodily or in the Spirit. I believe it was the latter, for at the time when this event transpired Paul's soul was yet alive in a body of flesh and blood, and as he wrote in I Corinthians 15:50, such earthly substance is forbidden entrance there.

Point #1 - I never said that "certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body AND AT SOME FUTURE TIME THEN DIE AND RETURN TO THE BODY ONLY TO THEN BE RESURRECTED." If that were true, as I think I have already stated in a previous posting, then it would imply/mean that those righteous souls whom I noted would be compelled to experience two deaths. That conclusion is simply illogical and altogether erroneous, and yes, omits a foul aroma that's worthy of rejection as "nonsense." (Pardon my words if they offend you, or if it be that I have misunderstood you, but I am simply being as frank and candid about this matter as I know how to be.)

Point #2 - "If" it be true you were referencing the contents of II Corinthians 5 when you wrote that "the entire chapter is considered leading up to that verse" (when the verse you truly meant to reference was #8 instead, for this is what the vagueness of your statement led me to "assume"), then you could not be more wrong!

Beginning with the very first verse of Paul's epistle of II Corinthians, and taking careful consideration to what he writes throughout the WHOLE epistle, especially when he used such words as "we, our, and us," then I believe one MUST conclude that its contents contain a written accounting of the ministries of BOTH Paul and Timothy. Paul is simply, and only, writing to the saints of the church of Corinth, as well as to those in all of Achaia, giving them a written review of THEIR ministry! This was not the case with Paul's 1st epistle to the saints at Corinth, for in it he addressed issues that were specific to them. Such was NOT the case in his 2nd epistle to them, notwithstanding the fact Paul did note that Silvanus was also present with them when they first visited Corinth and preached the gospel (see 1:19).

Point #3 - While it is true that Paul did write of the coming resurrection within the contents of II Corinthians 5:1-8, nevertheless when one takes into consideration his words of verse #9, then it should be understood that the when he penned the words of verse #8 he was actually speaking of himself (and perhaps even including Timothy, but that might be somewhat speculative on my part). The reason why I believe this to be true is because of the things Paul wrote in such places as I Corinthians 15:51, Philippians 1:23, and I Thessalonians 4:15 & 17, where there he also wrote practically the same thing.

Lastly, allow me to state that there is much to be said about these things, and it is my sincere hope that the Lord will give me the time to compose them and post them on this thread for all to see and respond to (if they so choose). I say this because I have been afflicted with a fatal disease, one to which there are no medical remedies, and lest the Lord intervene and heal me, the number of days I have remaining are questionable. I do not write this to solicit sympathy, but simply to inform you of the way it is. I cannot lie about these matters, nor will I, for I am well aware that there is the possibility that I must soon stand before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ and be judged for my words. It is my desire that I be justified.

Warmest regards, Lafon

[Lafon]

We forget that man is a trifold being. We are body, soul, and spirit. When one dies their body sleeps in the earth. Therefore, it can be said that the person is sleeping. However, the soul continues on and is absent from the body and is, as Paul stated, present with the Lord. Thus one could say that they are sleeping... and this would be correct. Or one could say that they are present with the Lord... and this also would be correct.

The materialist refuses to embrace spiritual realities.


Your assertion that "When one dies their body sleeps in the earth" is simply NOT true. The human body was formed from the dust of the earth, and at its death it is to that same element it returns. No sleeping involved for the human body, period!

Secondly, if it were true, as you also assert, that the soul is absent from the body after its death, then just who do you suppose those righteous souls are that will be awakened and caught up to the presence of the Lord at the moment of His second appearing? The souls of the righteous can't be present with Him in the heavens and present with their mortal bodies in the earth at the same time!

As for your classification of me as a "materialist," I haven't the faintest of ideas of what you are implying. Please explain.

[Lafon]

All I know is that these cats are going to be very surprised when they die and realize that they are not turned off like little computers. They will feel really silly when they begin to realize the presence of angelic realities and even the presence of loved ones who have gone on... not to mention... how surprised they will be when they are drawn before God and enter the Heavenly courts wherein the saints are celebrating and worshipping, waiting for their resurrection.

Aquila, have you not read that the apostle Paul explicitly asserted that one's consciousness of the time which elapses between death and judgment is likened to the "twinkling of an eye." Albeit the soul is unaware of the events which transpire following the death of their body (see Ecclesiastes 9:5), yea, not even cognizant of the fact that they have undergone the common experience of death, nevertheless the time between that event and the resurrection and judgment will seem to them as the "twinkling of an eye." It makes no difference the length of time which passes from the moment of one's death until the resurrection, it will seem to the soul that has been resurrected as if but a mere mini-second has elapsed.

Have you not also read that Isaiah, speaking as a spokesman for God, wrote that God has said, "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind" (see Isaiah 65:17, KJV)? If it be, as you've asserted, that "these cats are going to be very surprised when they die and realize that they are not turned off like little computers. They will feel really silly when they begin to realize the presence of angelic realities and even the presence of loved ones who have gone on," yet God has explicitly stated that ALL REMEMBRANCE of former things (including the knowledge that we were ever a resident of the present earth and knew 'loved ones'), then how can your statement be true? It cannot!

The entire contents of the things you've written are without scriptural authentication, for even you did not include a solitary passage in support of your conclusions!

[Lafon]

When one is arrested, they are confined. They await trial. At the end of the trial, the final verdict is handed down. If convicted... it's off to prison.

Same thing... the intermediate state is a place wherein the soul resides in spiritual bliss or confinement, souls in both realities awaiting their final judgment.


Are you stating that there are souls of mankind that presently are confined, in a state of conscious awareness, while they await the coming resurrection and judgment? If so, and seeing that Satan and his wicked band were not so confined following their rebellion against God, then where is the righteousness of God in such a speculative scenario? It simply isn't there, therefore your statement is absurd and utterly false!

Again, no scriptural passages to substantiate your "allegation," therefore they must be considered absurd, and do nothing to advance the gospel of Christ!

[Lafon]

Christian materialists are only focused on what they can "see" with the natural eyes.

Aquila, I've always tried to read and follow just about everything you've posted on this forum since becoming a member. I believe you to be a sincere person that seeks to help other saints and so to please God. However, there is just some things which you write that go so far beyond the realm of "believability," and, in fact, seem to be so downright foolish, that you leave me in stunned amazement (and generally silent).

I fear you depend far too much upon the carnal mind, and not enough upon the leading of the Spirit, in making many extremely critical and important observations concerning the highly esoteric principles of the teachings of our Lord, the prophets of old, and His chosen apostles. At least many of the things you've written about the matters which this thread addresses (as well as others) that it has caused me to arrive at this conclusion.

I pray you do not accept this as condemnation, but rather as just a "tad bit" of sound "constructive criticism" from an elder. Please forgive me if I have offended you in writing in this manner.

Warmest regards, Lafon

[Praxeas]

Are you stating that there are souls of mankind that presently are confined, in a state of conscious awareness, while they await the coming resurrection and judgment? If so, and seeing that Satan and his wicked band were not so confined following their rebellion against God, then where is the righteousness of God in such a speculative scenario? It simply isn't there, therefore your statement is absurd and utterly false!

Again, no scriptural passages to substantiate your "allegation," therefore they must be considered absurd, and do nothing to advance the gospel of Christ! non sequitor. Please explain "where is the righteousness of God?

[Lafon]

Just a brief moment of "musing" before I quit for the day (I'm getting increasingly tired & must take rest) ....

Almost 30 years ago, when I was yet a youngster of 45 and studying to become a Minister in the Church of Christ, I chanced to encounter a UPCI Minister who refused to accept my hand in fellowship as a "brother in Christ" following more than an hour of debate concerning the need to "speak in tongues" as evidence that one has received the baptism of the Spirit. Needless to say, but I was deeply offended by his action.

Instead of attempting to engage him in a debate about this as well, I spent a considerable amount of time afterwards pondering the matter. This prompted me to realize that I was confronting an important decision: Would I continue to believe as I had since my early youth about the matter of "tongues," or would I exert my best efforts to sit them aside, at least for awhile, so that I might, in an un-biased, objective manner, examine the scriptural record to determine the merits of the things this UPCI Minister had stated. I chose to do the latter, albeit not the easiest thing to do.

The results of this crucial decision? I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost while lying atop my bed in the early hours of Sunday, May 3, 1987. I had only attended one event at a UPCI assembly prior to this, and that was perhaps more than 2 years previously. The very first person I contacted after this event was the UPCI Minister, inviting him to visit me in my home to help be to better understand what this meant, for it was unlike anything that I had ever experienced before. When he came several days later, and I told him all that had transpired, he then explained water baptism "in the name of the Lord" to me, and I asked that he baptize me as he had shown me that Peter had explained to the Jews who heard his first sermon nearly 2,000 years ago. I never returned to the Church of Christ and have been a devout Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal since that time.

Now I have said all that so I might state this. When hearing something which opposes the things you've accepted as truth for an extended period of time, instead of refuting it forthwith, choose to make an investment of some of your time to compare it to the scriptural record to prove its merits. If that "new thing" which you've confronted aligns with the scriptures, then discard the "old" which has been proven wrong. If the "new thing" cannot be proven valid, then by all means, discard it.

Warmest regards, Lafon

[Lafon]

non sequitor. Please explain "where is the righteousness of God?

Tks, Praxeas, for your inquiry. Please allow me to respond, perhaps tomorrow, for I am just too exhausted to continue sitting here B4 this monitor at this time.

Warmest regards, Lafon

[Johnny]

Hello Lafon. I feel so good now that we had a good phone conversaion today. Thanks for reminding me that I was still on AFF, even though i have not visited here in some longtime.

[Aquila]

Your assertion that "When one dies their body sleeps in the earth" is simply NOT true. The human body was formed from the dust of the earth, and at its death it is to that same element it returns. No sleeping involved for the human body, period!

To say that the body sleeps is a metaphor. :smack LOL

Secondly, if it were true, as you also assert, that the soul is absent from the body after its death,

Those are Paul's words, not mine.

...then just who do you suppose those righteous souls are that will be awakened and caught up to the presence of the Lord at the moment of His second appearing? The souls of the righteous can't be present with Him in the heavens and present with their mortal bodies in the earth at the same time!

When Christ returns, the souls of the righteous return with Him and their bodies are resurrected. Then both Christ, and the elect, will have glorified bodies.

As for your classification of me as a "materialist," I haven't the faintest of ideas of what you are implying. Please explain.

You deny spiritual realities relating to man's ontological existence. Instead, you're fixated on the physical. Essentially, in your theological framework, man is nothing but a biological robot without soul or spirit that lives on apart from the physical body. Death is like shutting a computer off.

[Aquila]

Aquila, have you not read that the apostle Paul explicitly asserted that one's consciousness of the time which elapses between death and judgment is likened to the "twinkling of an eye."

I disagree. Let's look at the text itself...

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul didn't say that the period known as death would seem like a twinkling of an eye. Paul is talking about the resurrection. At the resurrection, we all shall be changed. The change at the moment of resurrection will take place in the twinkling of an eye... at the last trump. Until then, the souls of the dead are present with the Lord. Remember the martyrs in Revelation? Note what they say...

Revelation 6:9-10
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The martyrs say, "How long, O Lord...". This statement demands a definite sense of the passage of time. They are very much aware of being in Heaven. They are also very much aware of the passage of time. Death doesn't seem like the twinkling of an eye to them. However, when Christ returns with them, their bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye as Paul clearly described.

Albeit the soul is unaware of the events which transpire following the death of their body (see Ecclesiastes 9:5), yea, not even cognizant of the fact that they have undergone the common experience of death, nevertheless the time between that event and the resurrection and judgment will seem to them as the "twinkling of an eye." It makes no difference the length of time which passes from the moment of one's death until the resurrection, it will seem to the soul that has been resurrected as if but a mere mini-second has elapsed.

Wrong, as I explained above. However, I want to address the text you referenced...

Ecclesiastes 9:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Remember, this is OT. The Bible is a progressive revelation of spiritual realities that culminates in the NT. Also, the writer is merely addressing the dead as it relates to their physical existence. In one categorical sense, the dead know nothing as it relates to physical reality. However, this doesn't disprove any spiritual realities they may be experiencing beyond the grave. Notice the focus is earthly. They have no reward, and even their memory fades from among men. For example, I don't even know the name of my great-great-great-grandpa. Think about it... if you take this hyper-literally... the dead "have no reward". That means... anyone who experiences death wouldn't be raised from the dead to receive their eternal reward. This text ISN'T the full picture. It's a statement made related to the context of the author's work. The vanity of life on earth.

Have you not also read that Isaiah, speaking as a spokesman for God, wrote that God has said, "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind" (see Isaiah 65:17, KJV)? If it be, as you've asserted, that "these cats are going to be very surprised when they die and realize that they are not turned off like little computers. They will feel really silly when they begin to realize the presence of angelic realities and even the presence of loved ones who have gone on," yet God has explicitly stated that ALL REMEMBRANCE of former things (including the knowledge that we were ever a resident of the present earth and knew 'loved ones'), then how can your statement be true? It cannot!

You can't read the Bible like a comic book or a cook book. You're being so "hyper-literal". God isn't going to wipe our memories clean like re-imaging a computer. You'd not know who you were! You'd not even know who God was! You'd not even remember the name Jesus! Why? Because all of these are things that you've come to know on this plane. Your theory has eternity opening with the elect having a form of DIVINE AMNESIA! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

When God says, "...and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind...", it's not a didactic statement. It's a literary device. God is saying that the new heavens and the new earth will be so wonderful, our light and temporary trials will not even be on our minds. It's like telling a kid, "Look Johnny, I know it's going to hurt while I pull this splinter out. But once it's out, you'll be fine. You'll be playing in the yard and you won't even be thinking about it."

The entire contents of the things you've written are without scriptural authentication, for even you did not include a solitary passage in support of your conclusions!

They've been offered to you ad nauseam. You've embraced this materialistic teaching that fails to acknowledge the clear literary devices of the Hebrew language and the limited scope of the OT.

[shag]

I'm sure you good brethren have already gone in depth way beyond this verse, but while I was reading last night and ran across it, I thought of this thread. And as interested as I am, I don't have time right now to read it so I have to catch up on it later and hopefully learn something.


Probably already beenn brought up, but:

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[Aquila]

Have you not also read that Isaiah, speaking as a spokesman for God, wrote that God has said, "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind" (see Isaiah 65:17, KJV)? If it be, as you've asserted, that "these cats are going to be very surprised when they die and realize that they are not turned off like little computers. They will feel really silly when they begin to realize the presence of angelic realities and even the presence of loved ones who have gone on," yet God has explicitly stated that ALL REMEMBRANCE of former things (including the knowledge that we were ever a resident of the present earth and knew 'loved ones'), then how can your statement be true? It cannot!

I have to share this...

After reading this my mind went on a tangent. I pictured myself in the resurrection getting rewards for things I never knew I did. I then pictured myself asking God, "What are these rewards for? Who are you? And what's my name?" lol

I sincerely offer you an opportunity. There is a book titled, Heaven, by Randy Alcorn. He spent over 20 years researching the subject and the book is magnificent. My friend... there will be a memory of this world, who we are, who Jesus is, and yes... we'll even remember those who love and our families. In fact, God promises something so tender, so beautiful, it's promise is longed for. The context of this verse is what is theologically called by most, the "eternal state" ( after the Parousia and the Millennium)....

Revelation 21:3-5
English Standard Version (ESV)
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

The little gem here is the statement, "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes..." They say that there will be absolutely no tears in Heaven. If that's so, what is God wiping away? Oh, friend, God will not dehumanize you by wiping your memory clean. You will have a memory. You will remember the things of our present world, friends, family, and loved ones. Surely, being tender hearted and like Jesus, you'll weep for the fate of the lost. However, God promises to wipe those tears a way. He will make a new heavens and a new earth wherein He will bestow mercies upon you that are unheard of. In the light of His glory, majesty, and love... your heart will heal. He'll wipe those tears away. And you'll understand it better by and by.

I wouldn't want a monstrous God who would wipe my memory clean. My memories make me who I am. My memories are a resource from which I praise God for His goodness to me as I have experienced it. To wipe my memory clean would be a most terrible thing. The fear and disorientation of anyone who has ever suffered from amnesia should be a clue as to how terrible of an idea this is. To not even remember being baptized in His name, remember my spouse, my kids, my family, my job on earth... that's dehumanizing. I would be the shell of a person who... never was. I'd HATE a Heaven like that. I need my memories, no matter how painful... because my pain makes me who I am. My pain is also something through which I praise God and bring Him glory. And though that pain might bring me to weep... I know that my God will tenderly wipe away every tear.

I'm reminded of a scene from Star Trek. In this scene a deceived "false prophet" attempts to "minister" to the officers of the Enterprise by "taking their pain"... I agree with the character James T. Kirk when it comes to this sort of thing... I need my pain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvfRYD3ZPHA

Don't promise me that I won't remember a thing. To me, the implications of not remembering are worse than dealing with 75 years of memories... as I progress through eternity. After a while... life on earth will seem like a mere blip on the radar. The friends and family I will have in the New Heavens and Earth will one day overshadow any that I've had on earth. One day... I'll have been with Jesus 10,000 times longer than all the years I'd had known my own mother and father... the soul will heal.

[Aquila]

I'm sure you good brethren have already gone in depth way beyond this verse, but while I was reading last night and ran across it, I thought of this thread. And as interested as I am, I don't have time right now to read it so I have to catch up on it later and hopefully learn something.


Probably already beenn brought up, but:

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Broncos got destroyed. lol

[Timmy]

The Broncos got destroyed. lol

Maybe they will "resurrect" next year. ;)

[Aquila]

Maybe they will "resurrect" next year. ;)

Maybe. Unless, they are found "sleeping". LOL

[Dordrecht]

Maybe. Unless, they are found "sleeping". LOL

Yes, sleeping….like most people.
And yes, there is a real hell, where they will wake up
and find out it's to late.

[Aquila]

Yes, sleeping….like most people.
And yes, there is a real hell, where they will wake up
and find out it's to late.

The unsaved dead are currently in Hell as we speak. The lake of fire will be the result of the final judgment. Death and Hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

That's a good point... if souls don't go to Hell (Hades)... then what is being cast into the lake of fire after the final judgment?

[justlookin]

The unsaved dead are currently in Hell as we speak. The lake of fire will be the result of the final judgment. Death and Hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

That's a good point... if souls don't go to Hell (Hades)... then what is being cast into the lake of fire after the final judgment?

Which hell will be thrown into the lake of fire?

[Aquila]

Which hell will be thrown into the lake of fire?

Please be more specific. Thanks.

[Lafon]

non sequitor. Please explain “where is the righteousness of God?


Non sequitur? What? Are you serious? Is God a “respecter” of persons?

Does God exhibit partiality, or favor one member of His creation over another in the administration or rendering of justice in His judgments?

Do not the words of Psalm 145:17 give counsel that ”The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works”?

Is it not written that ”righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne” (Psalms 89:14 & 97:2)?

For the enlightenment of those occasioning to read this and are unfamiliar, or do not know what the Latin term “non sequitur” implies, allow me to define it .... it means ”an inference (i.e., conclusion) that does not follow from the premises (i.e., statements of fact or suppositions made or implied as a basis of argument).” So the onus actually rests with you to show how my response to Aquila's statement did not follow the argument I make that he was grossly amiss.

What is “God’s righteousness”? Is it not the principle upon which His actions in the administrating of His judgments according to the principle of just behavior and treatment is, and will be accomplished? Absolutely, for it is written, ”I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD” (Jeremiah 9:24).

Acknowledging that ”... the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. (for) He loveth righteousness and judgment...” (Psalm 33:4-5), then should one not conclude that it would represent an act of “unrighteousness” for God to inflict a greater (or lesser) degree of punishment upon one member of His creation that He imposes upon another, and that this is something which God cannot do? This is precisely that which Aquila endeavors to have others believe by alleging that the souls of the wicked dead presently experience confinement in a place of torment while awaiting resurrection and final judgment.

Did not our Lord Jesus Christ command that we ”Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24)?

Have you ever pondered why God decreed that the death of Adam’s body would be the penalty (punishment) to be imposed should he choose to disobey the commandment prohibiting his eating the forbidden fruit from? Why did God decree death instead of some other type of punishment for Adam’s willful disobedience? Why was the death of Adam’s body the ONLY punishment that God could, in accordance with the dictates of righteousness, impose for disobedience to that commandment? Was it not because death was the same penalty He had imposed upon Satan and the members of his wicked band that were first in willful rebellion against Him, and righteousness decreed that He impose the same punishment upon wicked mankind? Of course!

Because the angelic host which God created in the beginning were created as fully animated, living spirit beings, then when He imposed a penalty of death upon those who elected to rebel against Him, a precedent was established. This precedent meant that in every instance thereafter in which any other member of His creation also rebelled against His commandments, then the SAME punishment MUST be imposed, and this without exception!

However, seeing that no member of the angelic host had ever known an inanimate, non-living state of reality, then the principles inherent in righteousness prohibited God from imposing such a condition upon those who rebelled against Him. Instead, as Peter and Jude so aptly wrote, God ”... hath reserved (them) in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” (see II Peter 2:4 & Jude 6, KJV, Emphasis Added).

Therefore Satan and his wicked band have remained animated, and because they are aware of their ultimate destiny (Matthew 8:28-29), they continually seek to prevent mankind from enjoying the eternal bliss of God’s kingdom which they forsook. Had God cast Satan and his wicked band immediately into the lake of fire at the time He imposed this judgment upon them, not only would He have violated the decrees prescribed by righteousness, but mankind, whom He had not yet created, would never have been exposed to sin. The soul of man, on the other hand, after the death of the body wherein it resides, returns to its former inanimate, non-living state (both the righteous and unrighteous), and will remain there until the coming resurrection and final judgment (excepting, of course, those whom I have noted).

[justlookin]

Please be more specific. Thanks.

Will the burning hell or the non burning, yet torturous hell, be thrown into the lake of fire. Or some other hell?

[Praxeas]

Non sequitur? What? Are you serious? Is God a “respecter” of persons?

Yes but what does that have to do with me saying non sequitur? Do you know what a non-sequitur is?

Does God exhibit partiality, or favor one member of His creation over another in the administration or rendering of justice in His judgments?

Do not the words of Psalm 145:17 give counsel that ”The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works”?

Is it not written that ”righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne” (Psalms 89:14 & 97:2)?

For the enlightenment of those occasioning to read this and are unfamiliar, or do not know what the Latin term “non sequitur” implies, allow me to define it .... it means ”an inference (i.e., conclusion) that does not follow from the premises (i.e., statements of fact or suppositions made or implied as a basis of argument).” So the onus actually rests with you to show how my response to Aquila's statement did not follow the argument I make that he was grossly amiss.
Sure...you just made an assertion with out showing HOW it's related. Merely asserting something is true does not make it true. Let me re quote what you said

Are you stating that there are souls of mankind that presently are confined, in a state of conscious awareness, while they await the coming resurrection and judgment? If so, and seeing that Satan and his wicked band were not so confined following their rebellion against God, then where is the righteousness of God in such a speculative scenario? It simply isn't there, therefore your statement is absurd and utterly false!

You don't state HOW that is unrighteous on God's part. You assume it and there isn't anything in the premise that supports God is not righteous.

Lastly that you don't actually support that assertion is the basis of your saying "therefore your statement is absurd and utterly false!"..based on an unsupported assertion.

What is “God’s righteousness”? Is it not the principle upon which His actions in the administrating of His judgments according to the principle of just behavior and treatment is, and will be accomplished? Absolutely, for it is written, ”I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD” (Jeremiah 9:24).
God's righteousness is based on God's own principles, not yours. God doesn't need to check in with Lafon on why he allows Satan and his minions to roam free while the righteous dead still exist somewhere.

You seem to associate them existing in a conscious state with being in prison where Satan and his minions should be. But that is another assumption. Why not assume they are merely at an intermediate location...a "between place"?

You also, another logical fallacy, perverted what Aquila argued. He seems to argue the dead are consciously RESTING...you changed what he said to the dead are CONFINED.

Lastly, the argument also implies that if the dead are confined Satan should be confined, therefore if Satan is not confined the dead must not be. But that is another false view of the word. Satan may not be confined NOW but he will be! So ask yourself...WHY didn't God confine Satan NOW? Why does He do it later?

Well it seems that based on what you have said, you would have to conclude God is unrighteous.

Rom 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, "That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged."
Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Rom 3:6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

Acknowledging that ”... the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. (for) He loveth righteousness and judgment...” (Psalm 33:4-5), then should one not conclude that it would represent an act of “unrighteousness” for God to inflict a greater (or lesser) degree of punishment upon one member of His creation that He imposes upon another, and that this is something which God cannot do? This is precisely that which Aquila endeavors to have others believe by alleging that the souls of the wicked dead presently experience confinement in a place of torment while awaiting resurrection and final judgment.
See? You assumed Aquila is saying the dead right now are being punished. You also assumed when he said their bodies slept that he was being literal. I knew he was using a figure of speech.

Being dead and consciously aware is not punishment. The bible also makes it clear there is a punishment reserved for Satan. The times God puts in His own will is not your business.

Here is what Aquila said...please note how he distinguishes PRISON from CONFINEMENT and characterizes that confinement as spiritual BLISS but never torment

"When one is arrested, they are confined. They await trial. At the end of the trial, the final verdict is handed down. If convicted... it's off to prison.

Same thing... the intermediate state is a place wherein the soul resides in spiritual bliss or confinement, souls in both realities awaiting their final judgment"

Notice he did not stipulate any punishment or torment yet. They were awaiting blissfully the judgement

Did not our Lord Jesus Christ command that we ”Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24)?

Have you ever pondered why God decreed that the death of Adam’s body would be the penalty (punishment) to be imposed should he choose to disobey the commandment prohibiting his eating the forbidden fruit from?
It wasn't just the death of his body. He experienced spiritual death.

Second, again you are mis-characterizing what Aquila wrote. He did NOT say the dead are being punished RIGHT NOW.

Why did God decree death instead of some other type of punishment for Adam’s willful disobedience? Why was the death of Adam’s body the ONLY punishment that God could, in accordance with the dictates of righteousness, impose for disobedience to that commandment? Was it not because death was the same penalty He had imposed upon Satan and the members of his wicked band that were first in willful rebellion against Him, and righteousness decreed that He impose the same punishment upon wicked mankind? Of course!
Aquila did not say the dead are being punished right now.

Because the angelic host which God created in the beginning were created as fully animated, living spirit beings, then when He imposed a penalty of death upon those who elected to rebel against Him, a precedent was established. This precedent meant that in every instance thereafter in which any other member of His creation also rebelled against His commandments, then the SAME punishment MUST be imposed, and this without exception!
Aquila didn't say the dead are being punished right now...

However, seeing that no member of the angelic host had ever known an inanimate, non-living state of reality, then the principles inherent in righteousness prohibited God from imposing such a condition upon those who rebelled against Him. Instead, as Peter and Jude so aptly wrote, God ”... hath reserved (them) in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” (see II Peter 2:4 & Jude 6, KJV, Emphasis Added).
Reserved! Exactly...that is what Aquila seems to be saying about the dead! They are "reserved" somewhere WAITING for the final day of Judgement

Therefore Satan and his wicked band have remained animated, and because they are aware of their ultimate destiny (Matthew 8:28-29), they continually seek to prevent mankind from enjoying the eternal bliss of God’s kingdom which they forsook. Had God cast Satan and his wicked band immediately into the lake of fire at the time He imposed this judgment upon them, not only would He have violated the decrees prescribed by righteousness, but mankind, whom He had not yet created, would never have been exposed to sin. The soul of man, on the other hand, after the death of the body wherein it resides, returns to its former inanimate, non-living state (both the righteous and unrighteous), and will remain there until the coming resurrection and final judgment (excepting, of course, those whom I have noted).
You need to reread what Aquila wrote....

He did not say they are being punished right now

[Lafon]

Yes but what does that have to do with me saying non sequitur? Do you know what a non-sequitur is?

Sure...you just made an assertion with out showing HOW it's related. Merely asserting something is true does not make it true. Let me re quote what you said



You don't state HOW that is unrighteous on God's part. You assume it and there isn't anything in the premise that supports God is not righteous.

Lastly that you don't actually support that assertion is the basis of your saying "therefore your statement is absurd and utterly false!"..based on an unsupported assertion.


God's righteousness is based on God's own principles, not yours. God doesn't need to check in with Lafon on why he allows Satan and his minions to roam free while the righteous dead still exist somewhere.

You seem to associate them existing in a conscious state with being in prison where Satan and his minions should be. But that is another assumption. Why not assume they are merely at an intermediate location...a "between place"?

You also, another logical fallacy, perverted what Aquila argued. He seems to argue the dead are consciously RESTING...you changed what he said to the dead are CONFINED.

Lastly, the argument also implies that if the dead are confined Satan should be confined, therefore if Satan is not confined the dead must not be. But that is another false view of the word. Satan may not be confined NOW but he will be! So ask yourself...WHY didn't God confine Satan NOW? Why does He do it later?

Well it seems that based on what you have said, you would have to conclude God is unrighteous.

Rom 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, "That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged."
Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Rom 3:6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?


See? You assumed Aquila is saying the dead right now are being punished. You also assumed when he said their bodies slept that he was being literal. I knew he was using a figure of speech.

Being dead and consciously aware is not punishment. The bible also makes it clear there is a punishment reserved for Satan. The times God puts in His own will is not your business.

Here is what Aquila said...please note how he distinguishes PRISON from CONFINEMENT and characterizes that confinement as spiritual BLISS but never torment

"When one is arrested, they are confined. They await trial. At the end of the trial, the final verdict is handed down. If convicted... it's off to prison.

Same thing... the intermediate state is a place wherein the soul resides in spiritual bliss or confinement, souls in both realities awaiting their final judgment"

Notice he did not stipulate any punishment or torment yet. They were awaiting blissfully the judgement


It wasn't just the death of his body. He experienced spiritual death.

Second, again you are mis-characterizing what Aquila wrote. He did NOT say the dead are being punished RIGHT NOW.


Aquila did not say the dead are being punished right now.


Aquila didn't say the dead are being punished right now...


Reserved! Exactly...that is what Aquila seems to be saying about the dead! They are "reserved" somewhere WAITING for the final day of Judgement


You need to reread what Aquila wrote....

He did not say they are being punished right now


About what I expected .... lots of words but little scriptural support!

Regarding Adam experiencing a "spiritual death," if this subject wasn't so serious, such a statement would be hilariously funny.

What does the word death imply? Does it not refer to the total cessation of ALL functions without hope of recovery? Of course! Now add the descriptive word "spiritual" to it, and what does it infer? Seeing that the word "spiritual" indicates a mindset in which the things of God dominates, then the use of this word in describing the consequences of the judgment of death that God imposed upon Adam's body (NOT his soul - read Genesis 3:19 slowly & very carefully to be enlightened about the matter), causes it to imply that Adam had NO "mental thoughts" afterwards which would have enabled him to repent of his wicked deed and be reconciled to God. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and the scriptural record proves it!

If Adam did, in fact, experience a "spiritual death" when God passed judgment upon his body, then how did men discover the "name of the LORD" afterwards (see Genesis 4:26)? There is no scriptural record which indicates that God informed anyone of His name, and neither is there scriptural evidence which tells of who instructed Cain and Abel the manner of offering a sacrifice to God. How did these two sons of Adam know to do this? Is it unreasonable, and altogether logical for one to conclude that Cain and Abel learned what was required of them from the mouth of their father Adam? I think so, therefore in view of these things then it defies logic to conclude that Adam experienced a "spiritual death," as you allege!

I must also not be hesitant to call your attention to the words of II Peter 3:9 which also serves to refute your assertion ... "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

If your assertion were true, then it would mean that God failed to exercise patience with Adam following his wicked deed, but immediately, without delay, "slammed the door shut" on any chance for him to be saved.

I shall not even waste my time in responding to any of the other rebuffs of my statements, to which you penned a lot, but gave little, or in most instances, no support for them. As Paul wrote, "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" (Galatians 5:9). Therefore the "leaven" in your response that I have described above, is sufficient reason for me to elect to disregard the rest.

[Dordrecht]

No heaven or hell?
Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCnQQLUJHb8

[Praxeas]

About what I expected .... lots of words but little scriptural support!


You don't need scriptures to point out you didn't understand what Aquila was saying.

And clearly you don't understand what I was saying either. I didn't bother reading what you wrote because of the way you started off it's clear you just want to be argumentative.

[Lafon]

You don't need scriptures to point out you didn't understand what Aquila was saying.

And clearly you don't understand what I was saying either. I didn't bother reading what you wrote because of the way you started off it's clear you just want to be argumentative.

Oh, but I did, in fact, understood fully what Aquila was saying. Perhaps you should change your mind and read what I wrote, for you just might discover that your understanding of this matter is not quite as perfect as you think.

Aquila apparently believes that by Jesus' telling of the circumstances of the soul of a certain rich man following the death of his body, one should infer that the souls of all the wicked dead are also presently in hell while in a conscious state, "being in torments" until the coming resurrection and judgment. I am confident that most who has kept abreast of the things written in this thread by Aquila about this matter would also agree with this conclusion. My statement, to which you disagree, was based upon that understanding of Aquila's words.

For you to accuse me of being argumentative because you don't agree with the things I write shows conceitedness.

Why have you chosen to depart from a discussion of the issues involved and begin to attack my integrity, suggesting that God should consult with me concerning His righteous behavior? That is insulting and certainly doesn't speak well of you. If I am guilty of doing that to you, please accept my apology, for that has not been, nor will ever be, my intention.

I entertained suspicions that it would eventually come to this, and it is why, in my initial postings, I requested that this discussion be moved to the Debate Section.

Warmest regards, Lafon

[shazeep]

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

[crakjak]

The unsaved dead are currently in Hell as we speak. The lake of fire will be the result of the final judgment. Death and Hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

That's a good point... if souls don't go to Hell (Hades)... then what is being cast into the lake of fire after the final judgment?

Death and Hell, then ALL death will be destroyed, including the second death (the lake of fire) "...the last enemy....that God may be ALL in ALL...!" Jesus' righteous act brings about the final victory!!!!

Where a person "sleeps" a day, or a thousand years, it will be instantaneous from this life to the next.

[Aquila]

One thing I don't understand...

When we receive the Holy Ghost we become "branches of the Vine". We become "one spirit" with the Lord. Jesus now becomes "our life". How is it that this union of spirit between our human spirits and the Holy Ghost becomes terminated upon death??? Seeing that we are "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption, it stands to reason that we will never be separated from this union. Thus... eternal life clearly continues to flow through the spiritual being of the elect saint of God, even after death. Also, by definition... "eternal life"... is partaking in a "life" that never ends. The notion of soul sleep and annihilationism reduces "eternal life" to "postponed eternal life".

[Aquila]

And the notion that God wipes our memories clean of this life upon resurrection is absolutely ludicrous. We'd cease to be who we are as human beings. And we'd never remember our sin, what Jesus did for us, and when we entered into this marvelous light.

This doctrine is rife with problems that massive implications. I think people don't like the idea of an eternal Hell. Many choose universalism. Others choose this soul sleep annihilationist stuff. As though utter destruction is more desirable. Many also think this makes Christianity more likeable and hope more people will embrace it. However, if all one has to face is annihilation, their fate is no worse than if atheism were true.

[Aquila]

I'd like to relate a story about a beloved pastor who passed away several years ago. He had a heart condition. He suffered a massive heart attack and ended up hospitalized. During that period his condition worsened. It looked as though he wasn't going to stabilize. During his last night on earth he was in and out of consciousness. He made statements about various family members who had passed on and stated that they were standing in the room waiting for him. He even stated that he saw angels, heard beautiful music, and could smell "roses". At one point he claimed that his father & and mother had told him that this was the last time he'd be awake before passing and that they were going to escort him home. After he lost consciousness he remained stable for some time... then he went into tachycardia. A few moments later his heart stopped and he passed.

Are we to believe that he saw nothing?

We have countless near death experiences wherein people near death or who had been dead for some time report conscious existence. They report seeing loved ones and family, a tunnel, angels, "the light", an indescribable city, sometimes a pit of darkness, demonic entities, etc. Sometimes, people have reported that while clinically dead, or dying, they've been "out of body" and able to see the events transpiring around their body; leaving them capable of describing what was done, statements made, who was present, what they were wearing, etc. Some have even been "out of body" and discovered that they were in another location wherein they could see their grown children and what they were doing at exactly that moment... along with details of what they were wearing, etc. Are we to believe that they are simply lying or making "lucky guesses"???

The theory of soul sleep and annihilationism don't offer any serious explanation for these occurrences. Those who research these experience have concluded that while we have many reports so far... nearly 40% or more are never reported because the experience was so personal, frightening, or unbelievable people don't want to talk about them.

The point is... there is a conscious reality after death. I firmly believe in life after death, doctrinally known as... a conscious Intermediate State.

Psalm 49:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

The apostle Paul looks forward to being with Christ upon death (Philippians 1:20-24 ) and believed that Christ would bring with him those who had previously died (1 Thess. 4:14 ). Paul also says that at the second coming the dead in Christ will rise first ( 1 Thess. 4:17 ). These are not contradictory ideas. To Paul, those who die in Christ go immediately into Christ's presence in a non-complete (unresurrected) form, there to await his second coming when their soul will be reunited with a resurrected body. Those who are alive at that moment will be instantly transformed ( 1 Cor. 15:50-53 ; 1 Thess. 4:17 ).


2 Corinthians 5:2-4
English Standard Version (ESV)
2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

[Praxeas]

Oh, but I did, in fact, understood fully what Aquila was saying
No you didn't and showed you how and rather than dialog on that you got snotty with me.

The fact is not only did you misunderstand what he said, you also misunderstood what he said about our bodies being asleep in the ground and I pointed that out to you too.

He was speaking metaphorically.

You approached what Aquila said as if he said the dead are being punished right now. He did not say that.

[Praxeas]

Aquila am I wrong? It seems Lafon totally misrepresented what you said.

[Timmy]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/c0/c0be9a3abf38346cc0ccb13baed1a9335ef36144dd2570051b 58019f12b6fd99.jpg

[Aquila]

Aquila am I wrong? It seems Lafon totally misrepresented what you said.

No, you didn't misrepresent me. However, perhaps I should clarify. I do believe that the wicked are "in torments". However, that "flame" isn't "punishment" per se. It's the result of guilt, shame, regret, fear, loneliness, etc. Actual "punishment" comes after the final judgment when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire.

[Abiding Now]

No heaven or hell?
Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCnQQLUJHb8

Well, now there's a REAL old time hell-fire Baptist preacher. :thumbsup

[Michael The Disciple]

No, you didn't misrepresent me. However, perhaps I should clarify. I do believe that the wicked are "in torments". However, that "flame" isn't "punishment" per se. It's the result of guilt, shame, regret, fear, loneliness, etc. Actual "punishment" comes after the final judgment when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire.

Funny how "traditionalists" make it up as they go along.

[Lafon]

Funny how "traditionalists" make it up as they go along.


:highfive

[Lafon]

Hello Lafon. I feel so good now that we had a good phone conversaion today. Thanks for reminding me that I was still on AFF, even though i have not visited here in some longtime.

Thanks, my friend! It was such a great gesture of brotherly love for you and your wife to pray for my healing while on the phone with you yesterday. Its always a pleasure to speak with you. Glad to have you back here on the forum. :happydance

[Lafon]

Where a person "sleeps" a day, or a thousand years, it will be instantaneous from this life to the next.

:highfive

[justlookin]

Did anyone answer about what hell was thrown into the lake of fire?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[Praxeas]

Did anyone answer about what hell was thrown into the lake of fire?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Hell is a bad translation.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

People confuse the grave/Hades with the lake of fire

[justlookin]

Hell is a bad translation.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

People confuse the grave/Hades with the lake of fire

What is the hell/hades thrown into the lake of fire though? Something is being thrown into something else, I'm just curious what the hell/hades is that's being thrown into the lake of fire.

[Praxeas]

What is the hell/hades thrown into the lake of fire though? Something is being thrown into something else, I'm just curious what the hell/hades is that's being thrown into the lake of fire.
People who have died

[justlookin]

People who have died

Hell/hades is people who have died? I don't think I've ever heard of that view before.

[Praxeas]

Hell/hades is people who have died? I don't think I've ever heard of that view before.
You said "what is the hell/hades that are thrown into the Lake of fire"

I said "People who have died"...

You never heard that before?

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

[votivesoul]

There are a lot of pages devoted to this post, and I haven't gotten through all of them. So maybe this has already been addressed???

In keeping with the Scriptures, which I know you all know, I can say with confidence the following two statements:

1.) I am dead, and yet, my life is hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3)

2.) I sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6)

I would like to read comments about these two statements, both for and against each position, in regards to what way, if any, these two verses apply to the discussion at hand.

And while I continue to read the post, I submit this verse:

Ephesians 1:10,

10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him...

There are things which are in heaven and things which are on earth, which, in the fulness of times, are to be gathered together in one in Christ.

Do any of these "things" include humans, as appears to be strongly implied by the rest of the chapter?

If so, how so?

If not, how not?

[justlookin]

You said "what is the hell/hades that are thrown into the Lake of fire"

I said "People who have died"...

You never heard that before?

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

No, I've never heard hell/hades defined as people. I've heard there were people in hell/hades, but not that hell/hades were persons. I have heard that hell/hades was a place of existence though and I'm just curious what what the hell/hades was which was thrown into the lake of fire.

[Praxeas]

No, I've never heard hell/hades defined as people. I've heard there were people in hell/hades, but not that hell/hades were persons. I have heard that hell/hades was a place of existence though and I'm just curious what what the hell/hades was which was thrown into the lake of fire.
I didn't define hell/hades as people..

I repeat, you asked "what is the hell/hades that are thrown into the Lake of fire"

And I answered people who are dead.

You're curious and I just answered you..twice.

Third time is the charm they say :heeheehee

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Dead people...

[A239]

I didn't define hell/hades as people..

I repeat, you asked "what is the hell/hades that are thrown into the Lake of fire"

And I answered people who are dead.

You're curious and I just answered you..twice.

Third time is the charm they say :heeheehee

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Dead people...

Death, as you can see, is capitalized, meaning it's not death as in the absence of life but is the name of a person or thing. Same as Hades.

[Praxeas]

Death, as you can see, is capitalized, meaning it's not death as in the absence of life but is the name of a person or thing. Same as Hades.
Read the context, not the one word "death"

It refers to the DEAD that were IN Hades

BTW Names of places are capitalized too and there are no capitals distinguished in the greek.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

[shazeep]

um, how can the dead deliver the dead? I am persuaded by Death personified here, capital D, personally. Not that the passage makes much better sense that way :lol
and, doesn't the Greek article determine proper or common? And one has to wonder why Death (or death, whichever) is not translated 'Grave' here?

[Praxeas]

um, how can the dead deliver the dead? I am persuaded by Death personified here, capital D, personally. Not that the passage makes much better sense that way :lol
and, doesn't the Greek article determine proper or common? And one has to wonder why Death (or death, whichever) is not translated 'Grave' here?

The article would not turn a place into a person.

Again the context says the DEAD that were IN IT.

Personifying non-personal things is common in Hebraic thought.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened — the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.

[shazeep]

ok, then from that angle, it seems strange to want to personify death, which i would say "the Grave" (what is the term? Sheol? i think) does already?

Also, we (naturally) assume that these people are physically dead, is that correct?

[Dordrecht]

ok, then from that angle, it seems strange to want to personify death, which i would say "the Grave" (what is the term? Sheol? i think) does already?

Also, we (naturally) assume that these people are physically dead, is that correct?

They died, not walking the earth anymore.

[shazeep]

All of them? I'm ignorant here--i ask because i wonder if Death might not be associated with spiritual death.

[Praxeas]

ok, then from that angle, it seems strange to want to personify death, which i would say "the Grave" (what is the term? Sheol? i think) does already?

Also, we (naturally) assume that these people are physically dead, is that correct?
Why is it strange to personify anything? It's a literary device. WE do it with ships we refer to as "She".

It just says they are dead and in Hades

[shazeep]

Why is it strange to personify anything?Well, my meaning was why personify it again, when we have Sheol already. Gahenna? whatever

[Michael The Disciple]

Literally speaking "Hades" is the name of a Greek god. The Hebrew term was sheol meaning the grave.

[Praxeas]

HADES hāʹdēz [Gk há̧dēs]; AV HELL; NEB also DEATH (Mt. 16:18; Acts 2:27, 31), DEPTHS (Mt. 11:23; Lk. 10:15), DEATH’S DOMAIN (Rev. 1:18). The underworld or realm of the dead.

In Greek mythology Hades was originally the proper name of the god of the underworld (HomerIl xv.188), and the underworld was called “the house of Hades” (Il. vii.330; xxiii.389; xxiv.593). The regular use of Hades as the name of the place of the dead may have originated with Homer (Il. xxiii.244; cf. LSJ, p. 21). The LXX used Hades almost exclusively to translate Heb še˒ôl, the most common OT term for the realm of the dead. The OT says little about SHEOL; it was apparently a gloomy underworld (Isa. 7:11) where all the dead went (Gen. 42:38; Eccl. 9:10).

In the intertestamental period the idea of the afterlife underwent some development. In Jewish apocalyptic literature Hades was an intermediate place (12En 51:1) where all the souls of the dead awaited judgment (22:3f). The dead were separated into compartments, the righteous staying in an apparently pleasant place (v 9) and various classes of sinners undergoing punishments in other compartments (vv 10–13). The Pharisees also believed that the righteous were rewarded and the wicked punished (Josephus Ant. xviii.1.3 [14]; PsSol 14:6f; 15:11f).

The NT description of Hades resembles that of the OT and intertestamental portrayals. The depths of Hades are contrasted with the heights of heaven (Mt. 11:23 par Lk. 10:15; cf. Isa. 7:11). Like the Babylonian (ANET, pp. 107–110) and Greek (HomerIl v.646) mythologies, the NT Hades has gates like a city (RSV mg, Mt. 16:18; cf. Isa. 38:10; Job 38:17), although as Jeremias points out, this is figurative language, and the gates represent the “ungodly powers of the underworld” (TDNT, VI, 927). Thus the RSV’s “powers of death,” though not a literal translation, conveys the sense of the passage. In the book of Revelation Hades and Death are always paired and personified (1:18; 6:8; 20:13f; an exception to this personification may occur in 1:18 if the genitives are understood as objective; cf. R. H. Charles, comm on Revelation [ICC, 1920], I, 32). Christ has the keys of Death and Hades (1:18; Jeremias, TDNT, III, 746f, notes the rabbinic parallel in TB Taanith 2a). In 6:8 the personified Death and Hades seem to represent the ungodly powers of the underworld as they are loosed on the earth after the opening of the fourth seal.


. Vol. 2: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised. 1979–1988 (G. W. Bromiley, Ed.) (591–592). Wm. B. Eerdmans.

[Carl]

Sorry, my friend, I do not believe an apology is in order. Here' why:

Yes, I did both read, and again just finished re-reading your comments. You wrote,

"If I understand correctly you are saying certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body and at some future time then die and return to the body only to then be resurrected?) Also the 5th verse of II Corinthians is constantly misunderstood. If the entire chapter is considered leading up to that verse, it is certain that Paul is saying he would rather be absent from the body to be present in his new body with the Lord. Thus the resurrection!"

What were you referring to when you mentioned "the 5th verse of II Corinthians"? Seeing that there are 13 chapters in the epistle of II Corinthians, and each has a 5th verse, then its difficult, if not altogether impossible, for me to "speculate" as to which you're referencing. The only one that I could imagine it being is found in the 12th chapter, but even then Paul was not writing about death or the resurrection of the dead, rather he was telling of a time when he was caught up to paradise, but even then he was unable to determine whether that entailed him being taken there bodily or in the Spirit. I believe it was the latter, for at the time when this event transpired Paul's soul was yet alive in a body of flesh and blood, and as he wrote in I Corinthians 15:50, such earthly substance is forbidden entrance there.

Point #1 - I never said that "certain righteous souls go to heaven upon death of the body AND AT SOME FUTURE TIME THEN DIE AND RETURN TO THE BODY ONLY TO THEN BE RESURRECTED." If that were true, as I think I have already stated in a previous posting, then it would imply/mean that those righteous souls whom I noted would be compelled to experience two deaths. That conclusion is simply illogical and altogether erroneous, and yes, omits a foul aroma that's worthy of rejection as "nonsense." (Pardon my words if they offend you, or if it be that I have misunderstood you, but I am simply being as frank and candid about this matter as I know how to be.)

Point #2 - "If" it be true you were referencing the contents of II Corinthians 5 when you wrote that "the entire chapter is considered leading up to that verse" (when the verse you truly meant to reference was #8 instead, for this is what the vagueness of your statement led me to "assume"), then you could not be more wrong!

Beginning with the very first verse of Paul's epistle of II Corinthians, and taking careful consideration to what he writes throughout the WHOLE epistle, especially when he used such words as "we, our, and us," then I believe one MUST conclude that its contents contain a written accounting of the ministries of BOTH Paul and Timothy. Paul is simply, and only, writing to the saints of the church of Corinth, as well as to those in all of Achaia, giving them a written review of THEIR ministry! This was not the case with Paul's 1st epistle to the saints at Corinth, for in it he addressed issues that were specific to them. Such was NOT the case in his 2nd epistle to them, notwithstanding the fact Paul did note that Silvanus was also present with them when they first visited Corinth and preached the gospel (see 1:19).

Point #3 - While it is true that Paul did write of the coming resurrection within the contents of II Corinthians 5:1-8, nevertheless when one takes into consideration his words of verse #9, then it should be understood that the when he penned the words of verse #8 he was actually speaking of himself (and perhaps even including Timothy, but that might be somewhat speculative on my part). The reason why I believe this to be true is because of the things Paul wrote in such places as I Corinthians 15:51, Philippians 1:23, and I Thessalonians 4:15 & 17, where there he also wrote practically the same thing.

Lastly, allow me to state that there is much to be said about these things, and it is my sincere hope that the Lord will give me the time to compose them and post them on this thread for all to see and respond to (if they so choose). I say this because I have been afflicted with a fatal disease, one to which there are no medical remedies, and lest the Lord intervene and heal me, the number of days I have remaining are questionable. I do not write this to solicit sympathy, but simply to inform you of the way it is. I cannot lie about these matters, nor will I, for I am well aware that there is the possibility that I must soon stand before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ and be judged for my words. It is my desire that I be justified.

Warmest regards, Lafon
Sorry about the misunderstanding, I meant the 5th chapter of II Cor. I do believe he is talking about the mortal putting on immortality as it applies to all believers. At least we both agree the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable.

[justlookin]

I didn't define hell/hades as people..

I repeat, you asked "what is the hell/hades that are thrown into the Lake of fire"

And I answered people who are dead.

You're curious and I just answered you..twice.

Third time is the charm they say :heeheehee

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Dead people...

No, read it again. I didn't ask who was thrown into the lake of fire, I asked
what is the hell/hades which is thrown into the lake of fire. I'm speaking of hell/hades itself, not the inhabitants.

People aren't hell/hades, people are in hell/hades. So the question remains.

[Praxeas]

No, read it again. I didn't ask who was thrown into the lake of fire, I asked
what is the hell/hades which is thrown into the lake of fire. I'm speaking of hell/hades itself, not the inhabitants.

People aren't hell/hades, people are in hell/hades. So the question remains.
Right...and clearly when it says THAT in THAT verse it's referring to DEAD People..as can be seen from the context :icecream

Let me repeat it differently When it says "death and hades were cast into the lake of fire" it's referring to those dead IN death and hell

[justlookin]

Right...and clearly when it says THAT in THAT verse it's referring to DEAD People..as can be seen from the context :icecream

Let me repeat it differently When it says "death and hades were cast into the lake of fire" it's referring to those dead IN death and hell

The passage says that hell/hades will be thrown into the lake of fire, the place itself, whatever hell/hades is. Yes, that would include the inhabitants, I agree with that, but the passage specifically indicates that hell/hades is a place, whatever it is, where people go when they die and this place will be thrown into the lake of fire. Hell/hades is part of the "them" which was thrown into the lake of fire. Not a 'they', but a "them". Something, not someone, which exists.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Praxeas]

The passage says that hell/hades will be thrown into the lake of fire, the place itself, whatever hell/hades is. Yes, that would include the inhabitants, I agree with that, but the passage specifically indicates that hell/hades is a place, whatever it is, where people go when they die and this place will be thrown into the lake of fire. Hell/hades is part of the "them" which was thrown into the lake of fire. Not a 'they', but a "them". Something, not someone, which exists.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
the CONTEXT says "death and hell gave up the DEAD that were in them".."and whosoever (the dead people) were not found written in the book they were cast INTO the Lake of fire"..

Gotta read the context not one verse out of context.

It's clear that when it says death and hell it is referring to the DEAD

I don't see how that is hard to understand..

During the elections we might have said "California voted for Obama"..does that mean a large piece of LAND voted? No. It's referring to the PEOPLE who are IN California.

Read the context. The context explains the text. Text out of context is pretext.

Basic hermeneutics.

[Aquila]

the CONTEXT says "death and hell gave up the DEAD that were in them".."and whosoever (the dead people) were not found written in the book they were cast INTO the Lake of fire"..

Gotta read the context not one verse out of context.

It's clear that when it says death and hell it is referring to the DEAD

I don't see how that is hard to understand..

During the elections we might have said "California voted for Obama"..does that mean a large piece of LAND voted? No. It's referring to the PEOPLE who are IN California.

Read the context. The context explains the text. Text out of context is pretext.

Basic hermeneutics.

:thumbsup

[justlookin]

During the elections we might have said "California voted for Obama"..does that mean a large piece of LAND voted? No. It's referring to the PEOPLE who are IN California.

Conversely, one could say that San Francisco was destroyed by an earthquake. While people in San Francisco would be affected, it's speaking of the city being destroyed, not the people.

Rev 20:13 And the sea (a place) gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (a place) delivered up the dead which were in them (not referring to people): and they (people) were judged every man according to their works.

The sea and death and hell gave up people, but the sea and death and hell were not people, the sea and death and hell contained people.

What is this hell which is giving up people, as the sea gave up people?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell (not people...people aren't death nor are people hell) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Esaias]

From immortal soul-ism to reincarnation?

lol

People will believe whatever they want to believe, on any and every side of any and every issue.

For me, the Scriptures are plain. Immortality is conditioned upon receiving the grace of God. The 'not saved' have no hope of immortality, they will perish, be destroyed, killed, be no more, be ashes under the saints' feet, etc etc. It was the serpent who said 'you shall not die' whereas God said 'dying, you shall die', and again 'the soul that sinneth shall SURELY die'.

It is interesting to me that the New Testament says nothing about 'going to heaven at death' the way all the immortal soul-ists speak. Nor does it speak of 'those dear dead saints having a good time up yonder' right now, like the immortal soul-ists sing about and speak about and preach about.

Once again, for me anyway, it shows the religion of the apostles and of Jesus Christ is NOT the religion of modern Christendom, largely speaking - which I see is in fact prophesied to be the case, as Jesus and his apostles warned about repeatedly.

It was the Pharisees who apparently injected the immortal soul concept into Judaism during the Seleucid era. We are told to beware of the doctrine (teaching) of the Pharisees, as well as of the Sadducees (who were materialists, like modern atheism and humanism, and who denied spirit and the resurrection). Two extremes modern man has fallen into - immortal soul-ism, and hardcore materialism, which will be avoided by the student of Jesus Christ.

[Praxeas]

Conversely, one could say that San Francisco was destroyed by an earthquake. While people in San Francisco would be affected, it's speaking of the city being destroyed, not the people.

Rev 20:13 And the sea (a place) gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (a place) delivered up the dead which were in them (not referring to people): and they (people) were judged every man according to their works.

The sea and death and hell gave up people, but the sea and death and hell were not people, the sea and death and hell contained people.

What is this hell which is giving up people, as the sea gave up people?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell (not people...people aren't death nor are people hell) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Already answered several times

[justlookin]

Already answered several times

I think your answer is equating people giving up people instead of places giving up people. In the passage, the sea and death and hell (places) gave up people, not people giving up people.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[shazeep]

i think Esaias LP is cogent, here, and ties in with just's lp, above, in the sense that we look at this with human perspective, like small children discussing where babies come from lol. i think some clarity is possibly obtained when Death and Hell are viewed as conditions, rather than places--which still does not answer why we have a 'Death' if we already have a Sheol?

Also, note, "and they were judged every MAN according to their works." uh, but wait--there are no "men" or "people" here, if they are all 'dead,' right? how can that be? We're totally disregarding Understand I AM there, etc.

[shazeep]

From immortal soul-ism to reincarnation?

lolalthough i mostly consider what i'm about to say as heresy, and do not bring it up to congregants, i have always found it interesting that Scripture never comes right out and says that there is no such thing as reincarnation. It is given to a man to die once, and Do not teach reincarnation are as close as we get, am i right? Why phrase it in just these specifically ambiguous ways, i wonder--and then provide several examples of reincarnation :lol

[shazeep]

i have a total of about...11 minutes study into this, and already i am having serious issues just with the terms. i think you guys might need a lexicon. What is 'The sea gave up the dead that were in it?' A person who drowned, and was lost at sea, would be considered (by us) to be in Sheol, would they not? The Grave. Also...those burned at the stake, considered to be in Sheol or Gahenna--the essential idea being the spirit has departed, and worm-food is all that is left. Is Sea an alliteration to masses of people here? probable; but then the whole sea is coming, yes?

[shazeep]

sorry to overpost here--y'all don't need to reply, but

The kingdom of heaven is beside you, and
No one knows where they go when they die (possibly debatable), combined with
Understand I AM, and the knowledge that one may be 'dead' as far as God is concerned
(dying you will die), while still perfectly capable of walking around and procreating, lean me in Esaias' direction here, if i get him.

[justlookin]

i have a total of about...11 minutes study into this, and already i am having serious issues just with the terms. i think you guys might need a lexicon. What is 'The sea gave up the dead that were in it?' A person who drowned, and was lost at sea, would be considered (by us) to be in Sheol, would they not? The Grave. Also...those burned at the stake, considered to be in Sheol or Gahenna--the essential idea being the spirit has departed, and worm-food is all that is left. Is Sea an alliteration to masses of people here? probable; but then the whole sea is coming, yes?

One of the main issues is the accepted, by many, view that unsaved folks who die will go to hell which is a literal place of abode in that scenario, yet when scripture speaks of hell giving up the dead it's suddenly not a place but people. I see inconsistency in the view.

You're right, it could be a terminology issue. Is the sea literally the sea or is it a metaphor for something else? A sea of people maybe? Thing is, if one is to view the sea in the passages literally, as a literal place of abode, then one must believe that folks who were lost at sea thousands of years ago still reside in the literal sea and the literal sea will literally give them up to be thrown into the lake of fire (another metaphor or literal?). Extrapolate all that to death and hell giving up their dead and there are interesting scenarios. If one views death and hell as literal places of abode, but view the sea is a metaphor, not a literal place of abode, then death and hell are also metaphors, not literal, and the giving up of people to be cast into the lake of fire (metaphor?) isn't literal either?

[Dordrecht]

Some misguided preachers say that hell should not be mentioned because it frightens people.

In that case, someone should have told Jesus, because He illustrated the fact and horror of this place as no other.

Hell is mentioned some 53 times in the Bible.

[justlookin]

Some misguided preachers say that hell should not be mentioned because it frightens people.

In that case, someone should have told Jesus, because He illustrated the fact and horror of this place as no other.

Hell is mentioned some 53 times in the Bible.

13 times in my NASB, all in the NT. In my KJV, 54 times, 23 in the NT.

I'm still attempting to find what the hell was which was cast into the lake of fire. Would that be one hell cast into another hell?

[Dordrecht]

I'm still attempting to find what the hell was which was cast into the lake of fire. Would that be one hell cast into another hell?


That happens after judgement day.
The unsaved go into the lake of fire.
Before judgement day they are in hell but not the lake of fire.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[justlookin]

That happens after judgement day.
The unsaved go into the lake of fire.
Before judgement day they are in hell but not the lake of fire.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

What's the difference between hell and the lake of fire?

[Dordrecht]

What's the difference between hell and the lake of fire?

This is how I see it:

Those who have rejected Christ are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol.

After judgement day they have the lake of fire as their final destination.

[Praxeas]

I think your answer is equating people giving up people instead of places giving up people. In the passage, the sea and death and hell (places) gave up people, not people giving up people.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
No...that is not what I am saying...

Those Locations gave up the dead people that were IN them (BTW I said that already before) and what it MEANS when it says "death and hades were cast into the lake of fire" is that those people who were IN those locations were cast into the lake of fire.

Death and hell did not cast them in. Locations did not cast them in. Locations were not cast in. The dead were cast in FROM those locations.

Who did it was never an issue of discussion.

Again I answered what it means when it says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" as a reference to the dead that were IN those places being cast into the lake of fire.

Why does it say "death and hell"? Like I said, same reason why we say "California voted for Obama"..referring to the people that live IN California.

It's very very common in the bible to speak that way. It's called "Personification"

[votivesoul]

I don't think "death and hell" are personifications for the people delivered into the lake of fire.

I think they are real, albeit metaphysical concepts, one being a thing, the other being a place.

Death, as a concept, will be no more. True immortality will be achieved by all saved souls. There will be no more death (Revelation 21:4), not as a place (since death isn't a place) nor yet as a personification for dead souls.

But as a non-living entity and spectre that haunts all living things (through the introduction of sin by Adam a la Romans 5), there will come a time when that non-living spectre will haunt us no more. When death is cast into the lake of fire, it will be universally impossible for living souls to die.

As far as hell being cast into the lake of fire...

Hell is a metaphysical reality, a "place", if you will, on the immaterial plane of existence, where the dead abide. From this "place", all the dead who are there will be given up to the Great White Throne for Judgment, and those of the dead that were in hell, will be judged according to their works by the books. After judgment, if their name is not found in the Book of Life, they will cast into the lake of fire, i.e. the second death, or permanent, eternal damnation.

Then, along with all those souls who were in hell, hell, as a concept and place, like a container, if you will, will also, spiritually speaking, be cast in with them.

Does this answer your question, justlookin?

In this way, the lake of fire, or the valley of hinnom/gehenna, is not the same as hades/sheol, even as tartarus is not either, either.

It reduces to this:

- Hell (or hades/sheol): the abode of the dead (both a literal reality, i.e. graveyard, while also being metaphyiscal, as well)
- Tartarus: where fallen angels are interred in chains of everlasting darkness (See 2 Peter 2:4)
- Lake of fire (or valley of hinnom/gehenna): the final solution of God to eradicate all wickedness in the universe through the everlasting destruction He forces upon it

The problem stems from English translators using "hell" for three totally different words and concepts.

[shazeep]

One of the main issues is the accepted, by many, view that unsaved folks who die will go to hell which is a literal place of abode in that scenario, yet when scripture speaks of hell giving up the dead it's suddenly not a place but people. I see inconsistency in the view.

You're right, it could be a terminology issue. Is the sea literally the sea or is it a metaphor for something else? A sea of people maybe? Thing is, if one is to view the sea in the passages literally, as a literal place of abode, then one must believe that folks who were lost at sea thousands of years ago still reside in the literal sea and the literal sea will literally give them up to be thrown into the lake of fire (another metaphor or literal?). Extrapolate all that to death and hell giving up their dead and there are interesting scenarios. If one views death and hell as literal places of abode, but view the sea is a metaphor, not a literal place of abode, then death and hell are also metaphors, not literal, and the giving up of people to be cast into the lake of fire (metaphor?) isn't literal either?i personally find a literal lake of fire ridiculous. Fire is a chemical reaction, and we are talking about 'in the spiritual realm.' But then i've pretty much rejected all the yack that comes from the doctrine of Original Sin. If someone insists on a literal lake of fire, fine with me, as i'm sure the alliteration is pretty accurate.

[shazeep]

This is how I see it:

Those who have rejected Christ are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol.isn't Scripture pretty plain in stating that we all go to Sheol, the Grave?

[justlookin]

No...that is not what I am saying...

Those Locations gave up the dead people that were IN them (BTW I said that already before) and what it MEANS when it says "death and hades were cast into the lake of fire" is that those people who were IN those locations were cast into the lake of fire.

Death and hell did not cast them in. Locations did not cast them in. Locations were not cast in. The dead were cast in FROM those locations.

That doesn't agree with the passage.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The sea was a place, and this place gave up the dead which were in IT (a place). Death and hell delivered up, gave up, the dead which were in THEM (places, not people). The people which were given up were judged according to their works. So the passage first has places, then it speaks of the people in those places.

Who did it was never an issue of discussion.

Again I answered what it means when it says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" as a reference to the dead that were IN those places being cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, you gave your view that death and hell, and I'm assuming that you have the same view concerning the sea which gave up it's dead, that those are people, not places. I don't believe scripture supports your view.

Why does it say "death and hell"? Like I said, same reason why we say "California voted for Obama"..referring to the people that live IN California.

The same could be said for "San Francisco was destroyed by an earthquake". That doesn't mean that all the people in San Francisco were destroyed by an earthquake, it's speaking of the city of San Francisco.

It's very very common in the bible to speak that way. It's called "Personification"

Do you also personify "sea" in the passage?

[justlookin]

This is how I see it:

Those who have rejected Christ are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol.

After judgement day they have the lake of fire as their final destination.

You view then is that hell is a place where individuals dwell? If so, what puts them there?

I'm examining the issue of heaven, hell, lake of fire, destruction and so on, and I'm coming up with more questions than answers, to be honest. For example, if hell is a temporary destination, why do some people who die go to hell while others go to another place of abode, I'm assuming heaven.

Not trying to be argumentative, just attempting to settle a few questions I have.

[justlookin]

I don't think "death and hell" are personifications for the people delivered into the lake of fire.

I think they are real, albeit metaphysical concepts, one being a thing, the other being a place.

Yes, that seems to be true. As you said, they're mystical concepts, thus the difficulty of describing mystical concepts with words.

Death, as a concept, will be no more. True immortality will be achieved by all saved souls. There will be no more death (Revelation 21:4), not as a place (since death isn't a place) nor yet as a personification for dead souls.

But as a non-living entity and spectre that haunts all living things (through the introduction of sin by Adam a la Romans 5), there will come a time when that non-living spectre will haunt us no more. When death is cast into the lake of fire, it will be universally impossible for living souls to die.

Yes, death is destroyed at some point in time.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

As far as hell being cast into the lake of fire...

Hell is a metaphysical reality, a "place", if you will, on the immaterial plane of existence, where the dead abide. From this "place", all the dead who are there will be given up to the Great White Throne for Judgment, and those of the dead that were in hell, will be judged according to their works by the books. After judgment, if their name is not found in the Book of Life, they will cast into the lake of fire, i.e. the second death, or permanent, eternal damnation.

Then, along with all those souls who were in hell, hell, as a concept and place, like a container, if you will, will also, spiritually speaking, be cast in with them.

Does this answer your question, justlookin?

Yes, I appreciate your input, but not everything is cleared up. :)

If hell is a literal place, somewhere that people (spirit souls?) are now literally dwelling by the billions (or whatever number one wishes to use), then a place is thrown into the lake of fire. I'm having trouble comprehending how hell, a literal place, is being destroyed in a non-literal place. Unless the lake of fire is also a literal, albeit mystical, place.

In this way, the lake of fire, or the valley of hinnom/gehenna, is not the same as hades/sheol, even as tartarus is not either, either.

I agree. Gehenna and tartarus seem to be yet more places/hells.

It reduces to this:

- Hell (or hades/sheol): the abode of the dead (both a literal reality, i.e. graveyard, while also being metaphyiscal, as well)
- Tartarus: where fallen angels are interred in chains of everlasting darkness (See 2 Peter 2:4)
- Lake of fire (or valley of hinnom/gehenna): the final solution of God to eradicate all wickedness in the universe through the everlasting destruction He forces upon it

The problem stems from English translators using "hell" for three totally different words and concepts.

Yes, no doubt about that. In Revelation 20:13 the passage speaks of hell/hades/sheol, i.e, the grave, and that's what is cast into the lake of fire, not gehenna or tartarus. That means, in my opinion, that folks in graves are in some place of existence called hell/hades/sheol, and that place, wherever and whatever it is, will eventually be destroyed in another place of existence which may or may not now currently exist, the lake of fire.

[justlookin]

isn't Scripture pretty plain in stating that we all go to Sheol, the Grave?

Yes. :)

[shazeep]

you might speak with some E Orthodox types, for a fuller understanding here. They're available, http://www.christianforums.com/f145/

[Dordrecht]

By Justlookin: You view then is that hell is a place where individuals dwell? If so, what puts them there?

What puts them there?
They put themselves there by rejecting Jesus Christ.

[justlookin]

What puts them there?
They put themselves there by rejecting Jesus Christ.

If hell/hades/sheol is the grave/abode of the dead, wouldn't every one, Christian and non-Christian, sinner and saint alike go to hell when they die? This hell spoken of in Revelation 20:13?

[Dordrecht]

If hell/hades/sheol is the grave/abode of the dead, wouldn't every one, Christian and non-Christian, sinner and saint alike go to hell when they die? This hell spoken of in Revelation 20:13?

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Every unsaved person who has ever died, even from the very beginning, their soul and spirit are in hell, while their body has gone back to dust. At that time, hell will give up their soul and spirit, and God will give them an indestructible body, which is the second resurrection of damnation. the graves give up the bodies, in land or sea, and hell gives up the souls of the lost and they come together in the last resurrection to stand before God, there to receive the final word of destiny. God takes it very, very, seriously.
A great price was paid, that men might be redeemed: Jesus Christ.

[Dordrecht]

Well, now there's a REAL old time hell-fire Baptist preacher. :thumbsup

I watched it 2x. It will scare the hell right out of you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCnQQLUJHb8

[justlookin]

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Every unsaved person who has ever died, even from the very beginning, their soul and spirit are in hell, while their body has gone back to dust. At that time, hell will give up their soul and spirit, and God will give them an indestructible body, which is the second resurrection of damnation. the graves give up the bodies, in land or sea, and hell gives up the souls of the lost and they come together in the last resurrection to stand before God, there to receive the final word of destiny. God takes it very, very, seriously.
A great price was paid, that men might be redeemed: Jesus Christ.

I ask again, if hell/hades/sheol is the grave/abode of the dead, wouldn't every one, Christian and non-Christian, sinner and saint alike go to hell when they die?

[Dordrecht]

The answer is simple and you can find it in the gospels:

Born again Christians don't go to hell.

[justlookin]

The saved don't go to hell.

If hell/hades/sheol is the abode of departed souls (per Strong's), why don't the saved go to hell when they die? Doesn't everyone go to the abode of departed souls?

Not trying to be argumentative, just attempting to clear up the questions about hell/hades/sheol.

[Dordrecht]

Justlookin:why don't the saved go to hell when they die?

Because Jesus said so.
And that's good enough for me.

[shazeep]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCnQQLUJHb8this guy has not a clue, imo, sorry. he is a legalist, looking for someone to be better than.

[shazeep]

If hell/hades/sheol is the abode of departed souls (per Strong's), why don't the saved go to hell when they die? Doesn't everyone go to the abode of departed souls?

Not trying to be argumentative, just attempting to clear up the questions about hell/hades/sheol."No one knows where they go when they die," according to Ecclesiastes 5:16, although Dordt would maybe prefer not to admit this. I know it may be difficult to get the connection, but see that any Western Christian you talk to is condemned by the doctrine of Original Sin.

[justlookin]

Because Jesus said so.
And that's good enough for me.

To be fair, that's only a portion of my question and isn't what I asked. I'm not sure why you would modify my question/viewpoint and then reply to your own modified portion.

[Dordrecht]

"No one knows where they go when they die," according to Ecclesiastes 5:16, although Dordt would maybe prefer not to admit this.

A lie of satan: Nobody knows where he goes when he dies.

If that's true than Jesus was a liar.


Ecclesiastes 5:16

And this also is a sore evil, that in all points as he came, so shall he go: and what profit hath he that hath laboured for the wind?



This is what that means:

Man is born naked, and he leaves naked.
If he has all of this world's goods and none of God,
he will have "laboured for the wind".

That is the reason that Jesus instead told us to lay up treasures in heaven.

Mat. 6:19-20

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal."
--------------------------------------------------

Justlookin, …….. it crossed my mind that you are trying to be argumentative.

[Michael The Disciple]

The answer is simple and you can find it in the gospels:

Born again Christians don't go to hell.

Born again Christians go to Hades like everyone else does. At the resurrection of the dead they will come back alive and will have victory over death.

1 Cor 15:51-55

51 Behold,‡ I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”✡

55 Death, where is your sting?

Hades,§ where is your victory?”✡

Note in verse 55 after the resurrection Paul asks where is Hades victory?

Obviously saints were being held by Hades. It is at that time (resurrection) the saying of Yeshua will be fulfilled the GATES OF HADES WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST THE CHURCH.

After all he has the keys to Hades.

Rev. 1:17-18

He laid his right hand on me, saying, “Don’t be afraid. I am the first and the last, 18 and the Living one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever. Amen. I have the keys of Death and of Hades.‡‡

[Blackxeas]

55 Death, where is your sting?
Hades,§ where is your victory?”✡

Note in verse 55 after the resurrection Paul asks where is Hades victory?

Obviously saints were being held by Hades. It is at that time (resurrection) the saying of Yeshua will be fulfilled the GATES OF HADES WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST THE CHURCH.

After all he has the keys to Hades.

Rev. 1:17-18

An interesting for those believing we enter heaven after death. What is Hades prevailing against?

[Praxeas]

That doesn't agree with the passage.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The sea was a place, and this place gave up the dead which were in IT (a place). Death and hell delivered up, gave up, the dead which were in THEM (places, not people). The people which were given up were judged according to their works. So the passage first has places, then it speaks of the people in those places.


Uh...everything you wrote here is what I just said! You aren't reading what Im writing.

I said they are places. I said there are people IN those places..so I have no idea what you read but it wasn't what I wrote.

Yes, you gave your view that death and hell, and I'm assuming that you have the same view concerning the sea which gave up it's dead, that those are people, not places. I don't believe scripture supports your view.
Thats not what I said dude. I said those are LOCATIONS or PLACES the DEAD are IN..wow..Here I will even quote myself saying so..in fact you quoted me calling them LOCATIONS..

Praxeas: Those Locations gave up the dead people that were IN them (BTW I said that already before) and what it MEANS when it says "death and hades were cast into the lake of fire" is that those people who were IN those locations were cast into the lake of fire.

Do you see that? That means you aren't reading what I write or you aren't reading correctly. I clearly called them LOCATIONS. Wow...

The same could be said for "San Francisco was destroyed by an earthquake". That doesn't mean that all the people in San Francisco were destroyed by an earthquake, it's speaking of the city of San Francisco.
Thats nice and all but that's not an example of personification...so it isn't an example

Do you also personify "sea" in the passage?
I don't personify anything. Do you know what it means to PERSONIFY something?

Personification is a literary device used in the bible many times where a non person is spoken of as if it were a person.

That was why I used the example of California to show you what it means and how "Death and Hades" being cast into the Lake of Fire really refers to those souls IN those locations.

Its no different than saying California voted for Obama when California is a LOCATION but the figure of speech is referring to the people IN California..

wow..this is exhausting rewording myself over and over and explaining this to you.

Ok I never said those weren't places. I don't know what you read but it wasn't my post

[Praxeas]

I don't think "death and hell" are personifications for the people delivered into the lake of fire.

I think they are real, albeit metaphysical concepts, one being a thing, the other being a place.


You guys must not understand what "Personification" means. Yes Death and Hades are locations.

Yes they are real. Yes death is not just a location but a quality or state of being

To refer to those Locations as if they are people is a common literary device called Personification. It's undeniable.

Here is another example

1Co 15:55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

Speaking to "death" as if it can hear is a figure of speech called Personification. It does not mean there isn't a real place called Death. It doesn't mean there aren't people IN that location and state of being either.

No that does not mean there weren't real people IN those locations who were cast into the Lake of fire. It just means that it's a figure of speech to personify a location to refer to the PEOPLE who are IN that location

[Dordrecht]

People can make things as complicated as they want.
Churches are full of weird psychology these days.

And we can talk till hell freezes over, which will never ever happen….


This is enough for me:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

[justlookin]

Born again Christians go to Hades like everyone else does. At the resurrection of the dead they will come back alive and will have victory over death.

Yes, that seems to be the case. If hell/hades/sheol is a place of abode for the dead, then that's where all people, including Christians, go when they die.

That really doesn't address the issue why the sea and death/hell are distinguished from each other as separate places of abode of the dead, but I agree with your point that the saved and the lost go to the same place when they die. Whatever and whereever those places are.

[justlookin]

Uh...everything you wrote here is what I just said! You aren't reading what Im writing.

I said they are places. I said there are people IN those places..so I have no idea what you read but it wasn't what I wrote.


Thats not what I said dude. I said those are LOCATIONS or PLACES the DEAD are IN..wow..Here I will even quote myself saying so..in fact you quoted me calling them LOCATIONS..

Praxeas: Those Locations gave up the dead people that were IN them (BTW I said that already before) and what it MEANS when it says "death and hades were cast into the lake of fire" is that those people who were IN those locations were cast into the lake of fire.

Do you see that? That means you aren't reading what I write or you aren't reading correctly. I clearly called them LOCATIONS. Wow...


Thats nice and all but that's not an example of personification...so it isn't an example


I don't personify anything. Do you know what it means to PERSONIFY something?

Personification is a literary device used in the bible many times where a non person is spoken of as if it were a person.

That was why I used the example of California to show you what it means and how "Death and Hades" being cast into the Lake of Fire really refers to those souls IN those locations.

Its no different than saying California voted for Obama when California is a LOCATION but the figure of speech is referring to the people IN California..

wow..this is exhausting rewording myself over and over and explaining this to you.

Ok I never said those weren't places. I don't know what you read but it wasn't my post

Ok, they are places, we can agree on that. And we agree that people in those places end up in the lake of fire. I think our point of disagreement is that the place of death/hell/hades/sheol itself is or isn't thrown into the lake of fire.

Thank you for input in the discussion.

[justlookin]

An interesting for those believing we enter heaven after death. What is Hades prevailing against?

That's a good question.

[Carl]

Born again Christians go to Hades like everyone else does. At the resurrection of the dead they will come back alive and will have victory over death.

1 Cor 15:51-55

51 Behold,‡ I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”✡

55 Death, where is your sting?

Hades,§ where is your victory?”✡

Note in verse 55 after the resurrection Paul asks where is Hades victory?

Obviously saints were being held by Hades. It is at that time (resurrection) the saying of Yeshua will be fulfilled the GATES OF HADES WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST THE CHURCH.

After all he has the keys to Hades.

Rev. 1:17-18

He laid his right hand on me, saying, “Don’t be afraid. I am the first and the last, 18 and the Living one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever. Amen. I have the keys of Death and of Hades.‡‡

Good sound doctrine. The gates of hades not prevailing against the church is usually preached as a call to spiritual warfare. (It never made sense to me why we would want to break down the gates. If it is the enemy that is confined behind them we should leave him there.) But as you explained it is the grave not holding back the saints. I've rarely heard it preached in this correct context. There are some verses in Psalms and Job which also refer to the "bars of the grave or death", which sounds similar. The resurrection will be the greatest event since creation and demonstrate the ultimate glory of God!

[shazeep]

A lie of satan: Nobody knows where he goes when he dies.

If that's true than Jesus was a liar.


Ecclesiastes 5:16

And this also is a sore evil, that in all points as he came, so shall he go: and what profit hath he that hath laboured for the wind?



This is what that means:

Man is born naked, and he leaves naked.
If he has all of this world's goods and none of God,
he will have "laboured for the wind".Hmm, i know you aren't fond of that interpretation--but nevertheless, it is as valid as yours. i don't really try to make sense of it, as it already makes sense to me, either way. And it only means Jesus was lying if you insist on shoehorning it into some whack theology, i think.

Do you have free will, or has God predestined you, which is true? Since both are true, i personally am comfortable not knowing, at Ecc 5:16.

But since you aren't, i wonder then if you would answer this, in keeping with your interpretation of the verse--since you feel qualified to describe where you are going, where did you come from? Can you describe that? And see that this is a rhetorical Q, i don't want to start anything; my point is that maybe the answers aren't so cut and dried.

[Dordrecht]

Where I came from?
I came out of the gutter and know where I'm going: Heaven.

[votivesoul]

Yes, that seems to be true. As you said, they're mystical concepts, thus the difficulty of describing mystical concepts with words.



Yes, death is destroyed at some point in time.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.



Yes, I appreciate your input, but not everything is cleared up. :)

If hell is a literal place, somewhere that people (spirit souls?) are now literally dwelling by the billions (or whatever number one wishes to use), then a place is thrown into the lake of fire. I'm having trouble comprehending how hell, a literal place, is being destroyed in a non-literal place. Unless the lake of fire is also a literal, albeit mystical, place.



I agree. Gehenna and tartarus seem to be yet more places/hells.



Yes, no doubt about that. In Revelation 20:13 the passage speaks of hell/hades/sheol, i.e, the grave, and that's what is cast into the lake of fire, not gehenna or tartarus. That means, in my opinion, that folks in graves are in some place of existence called hell/hades/sheol, and that place, wherever and whatever it is, will eventually be destroyed in another place of existence which may or may not now currently exist, the lake of fire.

I am of the view that the lake of fire is a literal place, albeit as a metaphysical reality, just as hell/hades/sheol is. I do not believe the fire is literal, but stands in as a symbol for torment. It creates a mental picture of how bad it must be, vis a vis, what it would be like to be immolated in real life.

[votivesoul]

You guys must not understand what "Personification" means. Yes Death and Hades are locations.

Yes they are real. Yes death is not just a location but a quality or state of being

To refer to those Locations as if they are people is a common literary device called Personification. It's undeniable.

Here is another example

1Co 15:55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

Speaking to "death" as if it can hear is a figure of speech called Personification. It does not mean there isn't a real place called Death. It doesn't mean there aren't people IN that location and state of being either.

No that does not mean there weren't real people IN those locations who were cast into the Lake of fire. It just means that it's a figure of speech to personify a location to refer to the PEOPLE who are IN that location

I am aware of what personification is as a literary device, i.e. what it means and how it is used, and agree that in 1 Corinthians 15:55, "death" is personified.

But I do not agree that "death" in Revelation 20:14 is personified in any way, or that it merely represents the dead that are in hell/hades/sheol.

In Revelation 20:14, no one is "speaking" to death, as in 1 Corinthians 15:55. "Death", as a concept, isn't being treated as a person in any way at all. Rather, it's merely a thing (with no personified qualities) being cast into the lake of fire.

[Praxeas]

Ok, they are places, we can agree on that. And we agree that people in those places end up in the lake of fire. I think our point of disagreement is that the place of death/hell/hades/sheol itself is or isn't thrown into the lake of fire.

Thank you for input in the discussion.
Right..when it says 'death and hell' that is a personification, a figure of speech. What was actually thrown in were the dead.

[Praxeas]

I am aware of what personification is as a literary device, i.e. what it means and how it is used, and agree that in 1 Corinthians 15:55, "death" is personified.

But I do not agree that "death" in Revelation 20:14 is personified in any way, or that it merely represents the dead that are in hell/hades/sheol.

In Revelation 20:14, no one is "speaking" to death, as in 1 Corinthians 15:55. "Death", as a concept, isn't being treated as a person in any way at all. Rather, it's merely a thing (with no personified qualities) being cast into the lake of fire.
You don't have to be speaking TO something in order for a personification to be made.

Many things are personified in the bible.

Wisdom, The church, the day, Babylon, hands, eyes etc etc and in most cases someone isn't talking to those non-person things

To personify something is NOT to deny something is a concept or non-person. Personifying death is NOT a denial that death is a thing..

To personify something is NOT the act of denying it's a non person.

[votivesoul]

To personify something, or when something is personified, means that whatever "it" is, is given or takes on some quality of personhood, and all that that entails.

Death in Revelation 20:14 is neither given or takes on any quality of personhood.

Wisdom, as you mentioned, is given and takes on many qualities of personhood. It is referred to as a "she", she "cries out" in the streets, and etc.

These are easily identifiable qualities of personhood (e.g gender assignment and demarcation, vociferation, and etc.). Death and hell, however, in the case of Revelation 20:14, demonstrate no such qualities.