The verse that tells the other side

[shazeep]

It seems like there is always a verse that ameliorates, if not apparently contradicts, most any verse you might name. Prolly any two such might become a decent thread topic. Dordrecht has one warmed up for

"No one knows where they go when they die" i guess. Phillippians? Sorry, i forgot, i'll come back with it next time :D

[votivesoul]

Well, you could go to the one that gave Martin Luther such a headache. See here:

James 2:21-24,

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

and

Romans 4:1-5,

1. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[Aquila]

Well, you could go to the one that gave Martin Luther such a headache. See here:

James 2:21-24,

and

Romans 4:1-5,

In context... what kind of "works" did James talk about??? We often quote the verse about faith "without works" being dead... but we seem to always assume those are religious works of the law or legalistic standards. What "works" is James actually calling his readers to perform in the very context of the verse in question???

James 2:14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

What works is James calling us to, so that our faith might be said to be living and not dead???

[shazeep]

In context... what kind of "works" did James talk about??? We often quote the verse about faith "without works" being dead... but we seem to always assume those are religious works of the law or legalistic standards. What "works" is James actually calling his readers to perform in the very context of the verse in question???

James 2:14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

What works is James calling us to, so that our faith might be said to be living and not dead???shooting from the hip here, and going by the couple examples in those verses...i'd say works that produce fruit, obviously--fruit 'of the Spirit,' so..."the stuff no one wants to do!" :lol

[shazeep]

ok, but i meant for this thread to illuminate contrasting verses--although the digression is no biggie--but i guess Dordrecht is taking a break or something? So i'll complete

No one knows where they go when they die for him, with, um...hmm, actually I'm kind of stuck here! How would an Apo/Pent contrast this verse? The one about meeting Christ in the air that is so freely mistranslated? Or the Mansion one? What do you think?

[shazeep]

Dante actually gave me this thread idea, with

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thess. 2.15

which reminded me of

Seek your own salvation, with fear and trembling.

[Abiding Now]

When you have the Author of the Bible within you, there aren't any contradictions.

[shazeep]

When you have the Author of the Bible within you, there aren't any contradictions.hmm; you mean to tell me that you have resolved every apparent Scriptural contradiction to your everlasting satisfaction? I'll (eventually) get a couple posted here that i'd love a candid pov on, for sure.

[Aquila]

hmm; you mean to tell me that you have resolved every apparent Scriptural contradiction to your everlasting satisfaction? I'll (eventually) get a couple posted here that i'd love a candid pov on, for sure.

If you'd like to post them, I'd be willing to share my thoughts.

[Aquila]

shooting from the hip here, and going by the couple examples in those verses...i'd say works that produce fruit, obviously--fruit 'of the Spirit,' so..."the stuff no one wants to do!" :lol

I don't believe the fruit are the works that are expected. The reason being... fruit aren't works. Fruit is a byproduct of nature, not effort. For example, an apple tree simply produces apples without much thought or focus. The fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in a person's life as a byproduct of having the Holy Spirit residing in them in ever increasing degrees as they walk in the Spirit.

James is talking about "works". And in context, the examples that James happens to give are works that are acts of mercy and acts of faith.

[shazeep]

If you'd like to post them, I'd be willing to share my thoughts.ok, i will, might be a couple days, i'm packing for Florida as we speak.

And i guess i should prolly say that i stress the apparent in the contradictions, meaning that i don't believe there are any actual contradictions either.

[shazeep]

I don't believe the fruit are the works that are expected. The reason being... fruit aren't works. Fruit is a byproduct of nature, not effort. For example, an apple tree simply produces apples without much thought or focus. The fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in a person's life as a byproduct of having the Holy Spirit residing in them in ever increasing degrees as they walk in the Spirit.

James is talking about "works". And in context, the examples that James happens to give are works that are acts of mercy and acts of faith.hmm. aren't mercy (restated) and faith fruits of the spirit? i'll have to dig up a copy of the tree here, i forgot...and, seems like i am arguing this point with you on another thread already, @ "basically, what people don't want to do"...i think my argument will be essentially that works arise from the fruit of the spirit, which aren't natural to us, but become natural with practice, or something--but i can only get to AFF in Tor, which makes referencing a real pain, so i'll be back for this later too.

[justlookin]

I'll just throw these out there for discussions sake.

-------------------------------------------------

"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)

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2SA 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2SA 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:

------------------------------------------------

2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2CH 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

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[shazeep]

Very nice. i have taken the first one to mean that Elijah was a type for Christ, a la Melchezidek--but that is on my own, and i haven't studied it. The other two i have heard some believable explanations for, but have kind of forgotten--the first (middle) one may hinge on the whom she brought up for Adriel, and the second, bottom one i have completely forgotten.

[Carl]

[QUOTE=justlookin;1301295]I'll just throw these out there for discussions sake.

-------------------------------------------------

"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)

One explanation is that he did not go to the abode of God but the heaven where the celestial bodies are. Maybe he is still flying around up there.

[shazeep]

hmm, nice--maybe he even just died that way, going up into outer space. it would be a cool way to go--but seems lacking as an explanation.

[Aquila]

[QUOTE=justlookin;1301295]I'll just throw these out there for discussions sake.

-------------------------------------------------

"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)

One explanation is that he did not go to the abode of God but the heaven where the celestial bodies are. Maybe he is still flying around up there.

Or being taking to Heaven was simply being carried away to another location on Earth.

[justlookin]

[QUOTE=Carl;1301318]

Or being taking to Heaven was simply being carried away to another location on Earth.

What basis are you using to support that view?

[Aquila]

[QUOTE=Aquila;1301498]

What basis are you using to support that view?

Well, we can note that the fifty men that searched for Elijah for three days to no avail were sure he had been dropped by the whirlwind somewhere in the direction they had seen him taken. (2 Kings 2:17)

Another very important point many overlook is when Joram (king of Israel) begins to reign. (2 Kings 1:17, 3:1) This appears to be just before or just after Elijah had already been taken, because Joram and Jehoshaphat (king of Judah) join forces and are consulting the prophet Elisha. (2 Kings 3:8-11)

After Joram had been king of Israel for a few years, Jehoshaphat died and his son Jehoram began his eight year reign in Judah. After five or six years, Elijah sent a writing by messenger scolding Jehoram for the wrong things he had been doing while king. (2 Chronicles 21:12-15) The message also pronounced a judgment from the Lord upon him, his people and his family. The letter came true when Jehoram was stricken with a bowel disease the last two years of his life. (2 Chron. 21:16-20) His family was taken except for his youngest son Ahaziah, who reigned after Jehoram for one year.

After Joram had reigned for twelve years and Ahaziah had reigned one year after Jehoram died; Jehu slew them both. (2 Kings 9:24-28) The letter from Elijah could have been seven years after Elijah was taken by the whirlwind. Bible commentaries also agree that it was after Elijah had been taken away by the whirlwind.

Also, with regards to this letter, Josephus states: "For he was yet upon the earth". (Antiquities of the Jews 9, 5:2)

In Harper's Bible Dictionary numerous fasts and feasts of the Jewish calendar are listed. It states the tenth day of the second month Ziv was a fast to commemorate the death of Elijah. If he was taken to Heaven, why would the Jews commemorate his death???

Evidently, after the whirlwind, Elijah was close enough that he could get information about what had taken place where he had previously been. He was also close enough to send a messenger with the writing of reprimand.

In this case, the event of Elijah's death would be considered as being not documented. There is nothing in the Bible that tells of him going straight to the throne room of God.

[shazeep]

here's one for you, Aquila:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Jesus prayed that his followers would be one, but....

Well, Acts testifies that they were, right? For a brief time. These were some of the last recorded 'miracles' in Scripture; I've always wondered why no tongues recorded at this point (the 'Ananias' time) and also, why, at the very inception of the dispensation of Grace, we have two deaths that seem to be OT?

[shazeep]

here's one for you, Aquila:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Jesus prayed that his followers would be one, but....

Well, Acts testifies that they were, right? For a brief time. These were some of the last recorded 'miracles' in Scripture; I've always wondered why no tongues recorded at this point (the 'Ananias' time) and also, why, at the very inception of the dispensation of Grace, we have two deaths that seem to be OT?
(edit) ok, i guess there was one instance of tongues in there, earlier--but how do you get from a bruised reed He will not break to if you're lyin', you're dyin?

[shazeep]

Aquila? Ok, here's another:

i often ponder Christ's advice to buy a 'sword,' here

He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one

in the light of

... Then Jesus told him, "Put your sword back in its place because
all who take up a sword will perish by a sword. ...

His obvious admonishment of Peter (at 'the Ear' incident)

?