The verse that tells the other side

[shazeep]

It seems like there is always a verse that ameliorates, if not apparently contradicts, most any verse you might name. Prolly any two such might become a decent thread topic. Dordrecht has one warmed up for

"No one knows where they go when they die" i guess. Phillippians? Sorry, i forgot, i'll come back with it next time

[votivesoul]

Well, you could go to the one that gave Martin Luther such a headache. See here:

James 2:21-24,

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

and

Romans 4:1-5,

1. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Well, you could go to the one that gave Martin Luther such a headache. See here:

James 2:21-24,

and

Romans 4:1-5,

In context... what kind of "works" did James talk about??? We often quote the verse about faith "without works" being dead... but we seem to always assume those are religious works of the law or legalistic standards. What "works" is James actually calling his readers to perform in the very context of the verse in question???

James 2:14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

What works is James calling us to, so that our faith might be said to be living and not dead???

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Aquila

In context... what kind of "works" did James talk about??? We often quote the verse about faith "without works" being dead... but we seem to always assume those are religious works of the law or legalistic standards. What "works" is James actually calling his readers to perform in the very context of the verse in question???

James 2:14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

What works is James calling us to, so that our faith might be said to be living and not dead???

shooting from the hip here, and going by the couple examples in those verses...i'd say works that produce fruit, obviously--fruit 'of the Spirit,' so..."the stuff no one wants to do!"

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by shazeep

shooting from the hip here, and going by the couple examples in those verses...i'd say works that produce fruit, obviously--fruit 'of the Spirit,' so..."the stuff no one wants to do!"

I don't believe the fruit are the works that are expected. The reason being... fruit aren't works. Fruit is a byproduct of nature, not effort. For example, an apple tree simply produces apples without much thought or focus. The fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in a person's life as a byproduct of having the Holy Spirit residing in them in ever increasing degrees as they walk in the Spirit.

James is talking about "works". And in context, the examples that James happens to give are works that are acts of mercy and acts of faith.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don't believe the fruit are the works that are expected. The reason being... fruit aren't works. Fruit is a byproduct of nature, not effort. For example, an apple tree simply produces apples without much thought or focus. The fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in a person's life as a byproduct of having the Holy Spirit residing in them in ever increasing degrees as they walk in the Spirit.

James is talking about "works". And in context, the examples that James happens to give are works that are acts of mercy and acts of faith.

hmm. aren't mercy (restated) and faith fruits of the spirit? i'll have to dig up a copy of the tree here, i forgot...and, seems like i am arguing this point with you on another thread already, @ "basically, what people don't want to do"...i think my argument will be essentially that works arise from the fruit of the spirit, which aren't natural to us, but become natural with practice, or something--but i can only get to AFF in Tor, which makes referencing a real pain, so i'll be back for this later too.

[shazeep]

ok, but i meant for this thread to illuminate contrasting verses--although the digression is no biggie--but i guess Dordrecht is taking a break or something? So i'll complete

No one knows where they go when they die for him, with, um...hmm, actually I'm kind of stuck here! How would an Apo/Pent contrast this verse? The one about meeting Christ in the air that is so freely mistranslated? Or the Mansion one? What do you think?

[shazeep]

Dante actually gave me this thread idea, with

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thess. 2.15

which reminded me of

Seek your own salvation, with fear and trembling.

[Abiding Now]

When you have the Author of the Bible within you, there aren't any contradictions.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

When you have the Author of the Bible within you, there aren't any contradictions.

hmm; you mean to tell me that you have resolved every apparent Scriptural contradiction to your everlasting satisfaction? I'll (eventually) get a couple posted here that i'd love a candid pov on, for sure.