Swaggart implosion 26th anniversary

[Originalist]

This past weekend was the 26th anniversary of Jimmy Swaggart's summoning to Springfield, Missouri to give an account to AoG officials. Two days later Jimmy's infamous "I have sinned" speech was broadcast around the globe.


I'd like to consider a question...


Is not true repentance accompanied by restitution when possible? If you lied about someone and destroyed their reputation and ministry, would not true repentance over such a deed include setting the record straight in the public arena to help restore the reputation you helped to destroy?

On a related subject, has anyone ever heard Jimmy Swaggart even acknowledge his sin against Marvin Gorman, much less apologize for it?

This video tells the story. It was made before Jimmy's second scandal of 1991. it explains the Gorman situation fairly well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BeWPkoxi98


Secondly, I found something interesting in the archives. It is a letter that a JSBC professor wrote to Jimmy Swaggart at the height of the scandal. As a result of this letter, this professor was yanked as a Summer Missions leader. You do NOT question the Swag.





[quote]

Dear Brother Swaggart,

I came to JSBC some 3 1/2 years ago and I felt then, and still do, that it was of God. Your message and philosophy have always borne witness with my spirit. For the first time in my religious life, I had found a company of like minded people with whom I could identify. When I came here, I felt that I had entered the New Jerusalem and, after being here for some time. I had no reason to change my mind. This has without doubt been the highlight of my Christian life. I have loved every minute of it, and have no desire or inclination to leave now. However, the events of the past few weeks have completely pulled the rug from under my feet. And the reason, Brother Swaggart, is not your sin, which is now under the blood of Jesus and forgiven, but events that have been unfolding for some time, but only now are apparent; events that I have tried to overlook, to wink at as though I were not seeing what I was seeing, or hearing what I was hearing. Yet, it was true. You were changing, and not for the good, as I saw it. Let me explain in more detail.

But first, let me preface this by saying that if you really believe that this ministry is of God, then submit to the decision of Springfield. I do not say this as your enemy, but only that I might "speak the truth in love." Solzhenitsyn once said that " ...truth is seldom pleasant, it is almost invariably bitter. " I believe this is true; but I am not telling you this as an enemy, rather I am saying this as a friend.Solzhenitsyn quotes a Russian proverb: "The yes man is your enemy; but your friend will argue with you." Please listen to my argument.

Brother Swaggart, God is the One that has set this ministry back, and He has done it for a reason. I think Paul gives us the best clue when he talks of a thorn in his flesh:

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelation, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I SHOULD BE EXALTED ABOVE MEASURE. " (2COR. 12:7)

God has been behind this whole sordid mess because you were be- coming too proud (Is it possible God would bring down a ministry to save a man?) . You had become so popular world wide that you had virtually taken the position of infallibility and were speaking ex cathedra. For example:

"...As the great Paul was called to take the gospel to the Gentile world, I have been called to reach the masses with the gospel of Jesus Christ as well. If you think there are many others out there--or even one other person--who can do it, you are so sadly mistaken. I would to God it were so. I wish there were thousands who could do it, but I know they aren't there. So if I do not do it, it will not be done. I know that to be the truth." (Evangelist, March, 1988, p.33)

This statement expresses the ultimate in self-confidence and pre- sumption. Not even Paul, who you compared yourself with made such statements, even though at times he boasted of his suffering for Christ (2COR, chapters 10-12, PHIL 3). Certainly, Peter's state- ment would not apply in your situation:

"For what glory is it, if, when you are buffeted for your faults, ye take it patiently. " (lPETER 2:20)

You have not endured you "buffeting" patiently. Rather you have ignored what God is trying to do in your life and ministry, and you are planning to move full speed ahead to do what you imagine that God has given to you, and to you alone. You are going to remove the thorn, yourself. In the past few months you have been "hearing" from God continuously. Yet, it has not been a year since you were warning about those preachers who continually use the phrase "God told me. " Only this past week, you indicated that it was not easy to differentiate between thoughts in your mind that were a product of your own thinking and that which was from God. I do not believe there is any Biblical precedent for such rationale. Paul speaks of " ...bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2COR 10:5).

Thinking is a product of the human mind. And every thought should not be sorted out as either from God or the devil. Rather, each thought should be considered as either in line with obedience to Christ, or just a product of selfish or carnal thinking. To be sure, you are prefacing everything you say with a form of humility, yet your actions are not bearing this out.

The attitude that you are the only one that can reach the world for Christ started back a year or so ago when you received a vision of the "harvest." You made the statement then that God told you that if you did not do it there was no one else that could. Now, whatever you meant by that statement then has been confirmed in the recent statement quoted above. Yet, in the past few years, I have heard no less than 3 different evangelists state that God had given them a mandate to take the gospel into all the world. Are these "missing" God if you are the only one that can do it? In the past, you have always sounded the alarm when a brother was getting carried away with this "thus saith the lord" mania. This kind of talk will be perceived by others as presumptuous and arrogant .




One other area of pride that I might mention is in the area of the staff and the congregation. Due to the fact that the church has been bought and paid for by ministry money, there is little or no real commitment on the part of the people. Just one example is to inquire into the "great" numbers that turn out for all night prayer meetings to undergird your crusades. This is but one reaction on the part of the congregation, but is it any wonder when they are treated as dumb sheep? For instance, when a much loved, and very popular singer on the crusade team suddenly disap..pears, there is no explanation whatsoever to the congregation. Again, "the greatest campmeeting preacher in America," and the man that, "I had rather hear preach than eat," is no longer with us. Again, no explanation to the congregation. It is left up to the sheep to speculate and gossip as to what happened to them.* No one has a voice in the affairs of the church, no annual financial re..port, no vote, no input whatsoever. There is no accountability whatever on the part of the ministry. We are treated as children that are just supposed to be obedient and not ask questions. Isn't this somewhat like our Catholic friends?

In chapel last week, we were told that the school would grow bigger and bigger, and that the "best" professors and "best" students would stay here. What kind of statement is this that comes from the lips of a broken man? When a young professor challenges past statements which contradict present actions, is it humility to revert to at.. tacking him rather than the issue at hand, and then asking him what he is teaching the students in his classroom? I realize that these are trying times for you and the ministry. But, they are also trying times for us as well. Brother Swaggart, let me repeat here that it is not forgiveness that is questioned; rather, it is subsequent actions that do not represent "fruit meet for repentance," nor is there any sign of restitution.

Another area of concern is that of theology. Obviously statements that are now being made are indicative of a theological change in your thinking. I refer once again to the discussion with the young professor who queried you on your change of theol..ogy from recent articles on the Bakker case. You completely reversed yourself on the traditional teaching of Timothy and Titus in regard to qualifications for bishops and elders (Evangelist. September, 1987). You then defended your position by referring to Jesus' statement to Peter: "When thou are converted, strengthen thy brethren"(Luke 22:32). This is a weak argument to say the least. Peter's sin(s) here was that of pride and arrogance which was a result of lack of faith (v. 32). Jesus had anticipated Peter's presumptuous spirit and had replied to Peter even before Peter spoke. Listen to Peter's presumptive remarks: "I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and into death"(Luke 22:33). Matthew records two more in the same context:"Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended" (Matt. 26:33). And again, " ...though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee" (Matt. 26:35). Obviously these were pre.. sumptuous statements with little or no forethought. Certainly, they were not inspired by God. Also, the Greek word here for "converted" means to "turn again" (epistrepho), and is different from the word "repent" (Gr. metanoeo) which means to "change one's mind. " The subject of the context in Luke is that of faith. Jesus knew that Peter's faith was about to be tried as never be.. fore, and that Peter's presumptuous boasting was nothing more than self-righteous rhetoric. Faith that will not stand under pressure is not true faith. Therefore, after Peter's fall , he would see his sin of presumption and subsequent fall, and "turn back" from self-confidence to true faith in Christ . Jesus said as much to Peter: "Your vain glorious confidence will cause you to back.. slide, but when you are turned back recovered, your special mission will be to strengthen the brethren, and help them to keep from backsliding." Brother Swaggart, would it not be better to stick by your original statement that "I have sinned," rather than reverting to a theology of "situation ethics"; i.e. , applying the scripture to fit the situation?

[Originalist]

Let us now consider one area that I believe represents a double standard. An area that you either honestly do not see or that you do not know exists. This is the area of music. The past few years, in article after article, you have attacked so-called rock and roll music in the church. Yet student after student has told me, and I agree, that they cannot see any difference in the type of music that is played at Crossfire and so-called rock and roll. Pick up any tape of Crossfire and listen to the beat, it all comes out the same. It boils down to a matter of definitions. Stryper and others are defined as "rock," but ours is defined as "gospel." Why can't we get back to basic honesty? If we are
going to use the flesh and music to win them, we are going to have to keep it up to keep them. When Steve Fatter is told to fire it up, or some such language, in a Sunday evening service, and all of a sudden guitars begin to make the same beat as "rock," and the song is sung six times over in order to work up a "dead" (as you categorized them) congregation into some kind of emotional frenzy, or to induce them to dancing, even to the extreme of bringing out a young black student to teach us how to "dance in the spirit," isn't this carrying a double standard a little too far? What would those who believe and practice "interpretive dancing" and rock and rollers think if they had been here?

Our worship is no longer spontaneous, rather it is mostly induced and manipulative. The last few weeks should have been a time of sorrow, repentance, and mourning. Rather, when a "mighty man" has fallen, we are given over to shouting the victory. What victory? What are we shouting about anyway? The devil has kicked our teeth down our throats, and has virtually taken over the visible church, and the last great bastion of defense has been greatly weakened, and we are shouting.

One final area I wish to cover is that of stewardship. A good steward is one who is accountable. It seems that there is little accountability here in regard to the outlandish spending that has been so apparent. Much of the rationale for the extrav..agant spending is that people with money will give when they see their money spent qualitatively; i.e., extravagantly. Is this not pursuing carnal means to reach the purse of carnal people? Have we come to the place where the end justifies the means? Should not a race track owner be struck with fear of God and conviction of sin, rather than feeling such a pity for the "fallen" man of God that he gives him a million dollars? Should not Johnny Camp's special a little over a year ago at least have called for a self.. examination? It is an old adage that when someone lives in a glass house, they should not throw stones. I know it bothers you and makes you feel guilty when you see and hear so much criticism over your lavish lifestyle, while at the same time, you are asking others to give sacrificially. This has to be true, else you would not apologize so often and play down your home, watches, cars, etc. Why do you do it? You are too much a man of God, and know the word of God too well, not to know this is true. Wesley once said that if a man can afford, in essence, a $300 suit, then he can afford to buy a $100 suit and give the other $200 to the poor and needy. Did not Jesus teach this: "..take no thought for your life...what you shall put on .. ," "where your treasure is there is your heart also," and John's statement to "love not the world, neither the things that are in the world." Are the many warnings of Jesus and Paul that the riches of the world will cor..rupt the man of God no longer relevant in this materialistic and secularized world? Can we really condemn the prosperity message when we are living it? Brother Swaggart, I know that in your heart you see these things. I believe that one of the greatest causes of the present situation has stemmed from riches and fame, which engenders pride and leads to self-confidence, which is a result of inbred sin, and in turn, is one characteristic of the unsanctified Christian. This was exactly the cause of the demise of the Bakkers.


Brother Swaggart, if you really believe that this ministry is of God, then submit to the brethren in Springfield. Don't compromise everything that you have preached and stood for over the years. No man is expendable.You have to know this. There are hundreds of people who will stand by you. True, the ministry will decline, maybe go bankrupt. But who built it, you or God? If God built it, He will raise it up out of the rubble and make it greater than it ever was. Pride will be destroyed and true humility will reign. I mentioned earlier that when I came here, I came to spend the rest of my days here, if that was God's will. I still feel that way. Others on this faculty feel the same. However, under
the present circumstances, I cannot do so with conviction. I feel that to do so is to compromise everything that I have stood for. Just as I feel that you will be doing (compromising all you have preached) . But, whatever your decision, Brother Swaggart, I want you to know that I love you as a brother, and have spent 3 1/2 of the happiest years of my life here on this campus. I will be eternally grateful. Whatever your decision will be, my attitude will remain the same. Thank you so much for indulging yourself to this harsh criticism.

In his service,

XXXXXXXXX

Phil. 1:3-6 "I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making re..quest with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"[/quote]


(* a reference to Don Brankel who preached a message at FWC about a week after Jimmy's "I have sinned" sermon. In this message, Brankel's text was Proverbs 28:13....He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy..

We all noticed Donnie seathing and turning red, though the message was not aimed at Jimmy. After the service Donnie slipped Brankel a note telling him that "if he didn't like it at JSM he should leave".
brankel did just that. Jimmy, realizing that Brankel was one of the few draws he had left that would keep people interested in his ministry, asked Brankel to stay. Brankel refused. Jimmy replied, "Wait. You don't know how much I'm going to pay you yet!" Brankel responded, "I'm not for sale" and walked out the door.)

[CC1]

One of the things that made the Jimmy Swagart debacle so interesting at the time was the aspect of it in relation to his response to Jim Bakker's fall a short time before (he made a public statement that being AOG Bakker had a process to go through that meant submitting to AOG officials. Something a short time later JS refused to do himself) and also that his undoing was by Marvin Gorman whose ministry he had destroyed by revealing Gorman's sexual sin.

I can't remember what it was that made Gorman suspicious that JS was sinning himself but as I recall he either was following JS himself or had hired a private detective to do so when the photo's were taken of JS with that street hooker in that run down hotel.

Several years after all of it I read an exhaustive investigational article that detailed it all. Pretty amazing. Then after all of the puppy dog tears just a few years later JS was pulled over for speeding in CA and the officier found a bunch of pornographic magazines in the rental car. Yet people still blindly follow him. Not as many as before but enough to keep him living well.

[justlookin]

Will there be a Terry Black anniversary also? I doubt it.

There's a passage in the bible about throwing the first stone, you know. And to gloat over the failure of a weak Christian isn't pretty either.

[Originalist]

Will there be a Terry Black anniversary also? I doubt it.

There's a passage in the bible about throwing the first stone, you know. And to gloat over the failure of a weak Christian isn't pretty either.

Who is gloating? I asked a simple question, has Jimmy repented and apologized to Gorman? Swaggart lovers always like to build this strawman of 'throwing stones at poor Jimmy over his sexual sins". That is exactly what you are doing. I never mentioned his lust problem. Get over it.

[justlookin]

Who is gloating? I asked a simple question, has Jimmy repented and apologized to Gorman? Swaggart lovers always like to build this strawman of 'throwing stones at poor Jimmy over his sexual sins". That is exactly what you are doing. I never mentioned his lust problem. Get over it.

No, you're gloating over the failure of a weak Christian who isn't part of the oneness movement.

I ask again, are you going to have a Terry Black anniversary? Are you going to keep posting Terry Black's sins, his failures, his weaknesses year after year.
Of course you aren't. You're going to keep picking on non-oneness folks who fail.

26 years later you're bringing it up. Makes me to wonder what spirit you're of.

[Praxeas]

It's amazing how someone can look at the camera and talk about the sexual sins of others and not bat an eye when they themselves were living in the middle of what he was preaching against..

[Originalist]

No, you're gloating over the failure of a weak Christian who isn't part of the oneness movement.

I ask again, are you going to have a Terry Black anniversary? Are you going to keep posting Terry Black's sins, his failures, his weaknesses year after year.
Of course you aren't. You're going to keep picking on non-oneness folks who fail.

26 years later you're bringing it up. Makes me to wonder what spirit you're of.

Number one I do not know who Terry Black is.

Number two, I could not care less if someone is oneness or trinity when it comes to matters of failure and restoration. You obviously do not know me well. I do not "glory" in being Oneness. Rather, i glory in the cross of Jesus Christ. Your snide remark only proves you have some sort of chip on your shoulder against Oneness folk. The point of this thread is not Jimmy's sexual sin. Rather, the point of this thread is "what constitutes true repentance". Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard and others are humble and openly talk about how they fell and try to help others from doing the same. Plus, they take full responsibility. Have we seen this same fruit in Jimmy?

Number three, I am a former employee of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries and am the only one on this forum who ever sat across from Jimmy Swaggart in his office and pleaded with him to step down to get help.

You really should know your facts before speaking presumptuously.

[CC1]

It's amazing how someone can look at the camera and talk about the sexual sins of others and not bat an eye when they themselves were living in the middle of what he was preaching against..

That was my takeaway at the time. Here was a preacher who commented quite a bit on Jim Bakker's sexual sin including outlining the pathway to restoration within their org. (AOG). In addition he orchestrated a rival Louisiana AOG preacher's downfall by publicizing his sexual sin. All the while he himself was engaging in adultery! Pretty astounding to me.

As far as the poster who whined that this thread was Oneness folks trying to highlight the sin of non Oneness ones that his hogwash. JS was one of the most famous religious personalities in America at the time and to act like the whole situation was not news and did not have huge implications on the perception of Pentecostal / Evangelical Christians in this country is absurd.

My biggest gripe with Pastors who fall into adultery both in and out of Oneness Pentecostalism is that I have yet to personally know of a single one who came forward on their own and showed repentance and remorse. It is only when they are caught and their livelihood is threatened that they show remorse and repentance.

[justlookin]

Number one I do not know who Terry Black is.

Terry Black was a prominent UPC minister who fell because of various sins. Just curious if his sins will be remembered year after year. Some sort of special anniversary posting as you've done with Jimmy Swaggart.

Number two, I could not care less if someone is oneness or trinity when it comes to matters of failure and restoration. You obviously do not know me well. I do not "glory" in being Oneness. Rather, i glory in the cross of Jesus Christ. Your snide remark only proves you have some sort of chip on your shoulder against Oneness folk.

Nope, that charge is a false charge about me. My issue is that you, 26 years later, made a special anniversary post once again detailing the sins of Jimmy Swaggart. Would this occur with oneness ministers who also fell? There are many of them you know. Why not have an anniversary posting detailing their past sins and questioning their relationship with God?

I too could not care less if the minister is oneness or trinity. If you have a need to post past sins, be consistent. Have anniversary postings for everyone who has sinned in the past.

The point of this thread is not Jimmy's sexual sin. Rather, the point of this thread is "what constitutes true repentance". Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard and others are humble and openly talk about how they fell and try to help others from doing the same. Plus, they take full responsibility. Have we seen this same fruit in Jimmy?

Jimmy Swaggart must have hurt you very very deeply in the past. A hurt, a disappointment you can't let go. You're demanding personal satisfaction from him, you wish for him to prove to YOU that he's truly repented, truly gone to God and performed as you would deem properly. The thing is, Jimmy Swaggart doesn't have to please you concerning his repentence or relationship with God.

Let it go. The root of bitterness you've been carrying for 26 years now doesn't have to be there. Forgive him.

Number three, I am a former employee of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries and am the only one on this forum who ever sat across from Jimmy Swaggart in his office and pleaded with him to step down to get help.

That's commendable of you. You were right, he was wrong. You were righteous, he was unrighteous. You win, he loses. Honestly, what are you seeking from him? What does he need to do to you personally so that his sins doesn't own you?

You really should know your facts before speaking presumptuously.

The fact is, after 26 years you still bring up his sin. After 26 years, he still owns you by his failure.

You need to be free of that bondage, brother. Forgive him. God has.

[justlookin]

That was my takeaway at the time. Here was a preacher who commented quite a bit on Jim Bakker's sexual sin including outlining the pathway to restoration within their org. (AOG). In addition he orchestrated a rival Louisiana AOG preacher's downfall by publicizing his sexual sin. All the while he himself was engaging in adultery! Pretty astounding to me.

Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

As far as the poster who whined that this thread was Oneness folks trying to highlight the sin of non Oneness ones that his hogwash. JS was one of the most famous religious personalities in America at the time and to act like the whole situation was not news and did not have huge implications on the perception of Pentecostal / Evangelical Christians in this country is absurd.

I just find it strange that after 26 years, twenty six years, the sins of Jimmy Swaggart is still being brought up before the people. Would that happen with a oneness minister? I seriously doubt it.

As I said, let's see if Terry Blacks' sins (or anyone who has fallen in the past) are brought up over and over. Could be there's an anniversary celebration of them, a celebration of look how he fell and look how good I am in comparison to him. But I doubt that will occur.

And I'm not "whining" about oneness folks. I'm simply astounded that Jimmy Swaggart's sins are still being celebrated 26 years later.

My biggest gripe with Pastors who fall into adultery both in and out of Oneness Pentecostalism is that I have yet to personally know of a single one who came forward on their own and showed repentance and remorse. It is only when they are caught and their livelihood is threatened that they show remorse and repentance.

That may be the case, but to say they didn't honestly repent before God isn't our call to make. I can forgive them and I know God can too.

[Abiding Now]

Me, I hope JS and MG really and truly repent and put their sins under the Blood. No one benefited by their sins and or their exposures. Lose/Lose.

[pilgram]

@ "justlookin" Your posting style seems awfully familiar did you post here under another name before?

[justlookin]

Me, I hope JS and MG really and truly repent and put their sins under the Blood. No one benefited by their sins and or their exposures. Lose/Lose.

Exactly.

[justlookin]

@ "justlookin" Your posting style seems awfully familiar did you post here under another name before?

It's been quite a while since I posted here. What style are you talking about?

[bishoph]

Hypocrisy knows no bounds.



I just find it strange that after 26 years, twenty six years, the sins of Jimmy Swaggart is still being brought up before the people. Would that happen with a oneness minister? I seriously doubt it.

Let's see.....King David was most likely more oneness than most and he's been dead ......mmmmmm 4000 years? And while he killed Goliath and did many exploits it is rare that his name is mentioned and his adultery is not remembered. Adultery is a sin of reproach and one which according to the bible (you know that little black book that reveals God's thoughts and will) it is a sin who's reproach is NEVER removed. (Prov. 6:32-33)

[KWSS1976]

Bishoph, 1 John 1:9 states diffrently....(If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness). It clearly states All unrighteousness

Cross references:
1 John 1:9 : Ps. 32:5; 51:3; Prov. 28:13
1 John 1:9 : [Ps. 143:1; Rom. 3:26]
1 John 1:9 : [See ver. 7 above]; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 1:19; Rev. 5:9; 7:14; 12:11

[justlookin]

Let's see.....King David was most likely more oneness than most and he's been dead ......mmmmmm 4000 years? And while he killed Goliath and did many exploits it is rare that his name is mentioned and his adultery is not remembered. Adultery is a sin of reproach and one which according to the bible (you know that little black book that reveals God's thoughts and will) it is a sin who's reproach is NEVER removed. (Prov. 6:32-33)

This isn't about oneness or trinitarian, this is about bringing up someone's failures 26 years after it happened. One questions if the same thing would be brought up 26 years later if it had been a oneness minister who failed. I'd guess the answer would be no since that hasn't occurred so far.

Let me get this straight though. You're saying David's, Jimmy Swaggart's and Terry Blacks' sins cannot be removed? I don't think you're following scripture, brother.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Do you have any sins that cannot be removed? Have you enjoyed the blessedness of God as David apparently did? I have.

[justlookin]

Maybe we can have an annual remembrance of Jimmy Swaggart's sins here on the forum. Or have a social with refreshments and have a speaker enumerate them.

[CC1]

Maybe we can have an annual remembrance of Jimmy Swaggart's sins here on the forum. Or have a social with refreshments and have a speaker enumerate them.

You are being absurd. I have not seen posts on here replaying the details of his sin. If you are trying to make a point you are not doing it very well.

[justlookin]

You are being absurd. I have not seen posts on here replaying the details of his sin. If you are trying to make a point you are not doing it very well.

The point is, after 26 years some folks are still obsessed with Jimmy Swaggart's sins. Twenty six years. Two and a half decades.

Why are folks still so obsessed with Jimmy Swaggart's sins?

[bishoph]

Bishoph, 1 John 1:9 states diffrently....(If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness). It clearly states All unrighteousness

Cross references:
1 John 1:9 : Ps. 32:5; 51:3; Prov. 28:13
1 John 1:9 : [Ps. 143:1; Rom. 3:26]
1 John 1:9 : [See ver. 7 above]; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 1:19; Rev. 5:9; 7:14; 12:11

Both of you overlook a simple yet very profound fact.....IF we repent/confess and forsake......God does forgive and cleanse.......otherwise salvation would be impossible. However, that does NOT remove the reproach. You can tell me otherwise all you want, but we all know......ANY preacher you have ever known who fell morally.....when their name is mentioned at some point (if not immediately) you will remember their failure.......That is the reproach the Bible is referring to.

This isn't about oneness or trinitarian, this is about bringing up someone's failures 26 years after it happened. One questions if the same thing would be brought up 26 years later if it had been a oneness minister who failed. I'd guess the answer would be no since that hasn't occurred so far.

Let me get this straight though. You're saying David's, Jimmy Swaggart's and Terry Blacks' sins cannot be removed? I don't think you're following scripture, brother.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Do you have any sins that cannot be removed? Have you enjoyed the blessedness of God as David apparently did? I have.

My good friend, you are the one who is confused.....in your opening sentence you say it's NOT about a oneness or trinitarian......and in the next sentence you say it is.

BTW EVERY sin, except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, can be forgiven/covered.......but that does not necessarily mean it will not be reproachful to one's reputation.

[Ferd]

i just want to know why Apostolics care about this junk? he aint one of us.

[justlookin]

i just want to know why Apostolics care about this junk? he aint one of us.

Exactly. Why?

[bishoph]

i just want to know why Apostolics care about this junk? he aint one of us.

As a whole I don't think WE do......the OP was a former staff member there and I think the question stems from that experience. Also I think the real question was sidestepped/got sidetracked......it was about genuine repentance/restitution.

[KWSS1976]

Swaggart just though he had some Swag left yall leave this extreamly old issue alone..

[Ferd]

As a whole I don't think WE do......the OP was a former staff member there and I think the question stems from that experience.

well the former staff member there either is one of us or needs to get baptized right.


getting right seperates us from the world.

Jimm-ay and the AOG are Of The World... and therefore to be rejected...even when they arent knocking boots with prostitutes.

[KWSS1976]

Ferd thats Harsh seeing how we baptise in Jesus name just like the oneness crowd does

[justlookin]

Both of you overlook a simple yet very profound fact.....IF we repent/confess and forsake......God does forgive and cleanse.......otherwise salvation would be impossible. However, that does NOT remove the reproach. You can tell me otherwise all you want, but we all know......ANY preacher you have ever known who fell morally.....when their name is mentioned at some point (if not immediately) you will remember their failure.......That is the reproach the Bible is referring to.

Yes, folks remember and remember and remember and remember the sins and failures of others. Of course we don't want to remember and remember and remember and remember our sins and have someone post them every anniversary, including 26 years later. Generally speaking, we seem to like remembering the sins of others while hoping our failures and shortcomings will be forgotten.

What will the 27th anniversary of Swaggart's sins bring? Just another year of remembrance by some who claim to follow Christ.

Maybe there could be a special 50th anniversary service with the playing of newsclips and the reading of selected writings concerning Swaggart's sins. By ministers who have never sinned of course.

My good friend, you are the one who is confused.....in your opening sentence you say it's NOT about a oneness or trinitarian......and in the next sentence you say it is.

You misread the post. After being erroneously accused of attacking oneness folks, I was pointing out that for ME, it wasn't about oneness or trinitarian who was celebrating the 26th anniversary of Swaggart's fall. On the other hand, it does seem to be about oneness in their celebration of a trinitarian who fell 26 years ago.

BTW EVERY sin, except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, can be forgiven/covered.......but that does not necessarily mean it will not be reproachful to one's reputation.

So, everything's good between God and Jimmy? If so, why celebrate the 26th anniversary of his failures? Someone is attempting to make sure that the reproach to his reputation is kept alive and well, it seems. Enjoyment of bringing it up year after year after year after year. Honestly now, what spirit would be behind bringing up Jimmy's sins over and over, year after years? Would it be the same spirit that would bring up your or my sins over and over and over, year after year after year?

Why would anyone entertain that spirit?

[Praxeas]

Terry Black was a prominent UPC minister who fell because of various sins. Just curious if his sins will be remembered year after year. Some sort of special anniversary posting as you've done with Jimmy Swaggart.



Who knows. We have a topic on that issue which makes this one seem tame. But as for revisiting it, it may not be as easy to do without the same sort of Video investigation. Now, if you'd like to do a news worthy expose' on Terry Black and sign your name next to it, I'm sure we can post the video here several years down the road like this one

[justlookin]

Who knows. We have a topic on that issue which makes this one seem tame. But as for revisiting it, it may not be as easy to do without the same sort of Video investigation. Now, if you'd like to do a news worthy expose' on Terry Black and sign your name next to it, I'm sure we can post the video here several years down the road like this one

Here's another idea. Maybe we could all just list our top lifetime 2 or 3 sins and we could all revisit our sins every year. I'm not talking about run of the mill, minor sins, but the major stuff in our life.

I know it would be edifying to remember others sins every year, wouldn't it?

[Ferd]

Ferd thats Harsh seeing how we baptise in Jesus name just like the oneness crowd does

So one AOG church isnt utterly out in the cold. (I think that is great by the way)

But Jimm-ay dont like you doing that... and as a general rule the AOG has a different perspective.

Im glad you baptize right. Its important. Even if you dont think it is.


back to the matter at hand. Jimm-ay was LOST as two boys kissing before he started knocking boots with prostitutes and he is just as lost today.

He needs the real Holy Ghost and he needs to get baptized in a meaningful manner that includes invoking the only name under heaven whereby we must be saved.

plus a good deal of repentance for a life mis-lived.

[Praxeas]

Here's another idea. Maybe we could all just list our top lifetime 2 or 3 sins and we could all revisit our sins every year. I'm not talking about run of the mill, minor sins, but the major stuff in our life.

I know it would be edifying to remember others sins every year, wouldn't it?
Lead the way...

[Originalist]

The point is, after 26 years some folks are still obsessed with Jimmy Swaggart's sins. Twenty six years. Two and a half decades.

Why are folks still so obsessed with Jimmy Swaggart's sins?

Why after 26 years is Jimmy Swaggart still so obsessed with his past failure? i know why. Because he repented on HIS terms and has not made restitution to those he hurt. He has never found release. He's so obsessed with his past sins that his PRESENT doctrine of "the cross" was invented by him to white wash what he did. Yes, he is willing to distort the sacrifice of Calvary to make himself feel justified and to keep the money coming in.


I can smell a Swaggart cult follower a mile away. You just can't stand somebody pointing out the continuing sin of your favorite rock star.


God bless men like Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker who humble themselves and try to lead by example. When Jimmy does the same, I will most definitely applaud him and support his ministry. Until then i will keep bringing the events of 26 years ago into proper context as a way to save unsuspecting Christians of our time who don't know the truth of what happened back then from being deceived by the cult forming in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

[Originalist]

i just want to know why Apostolics care about this junk? he aint one of us.

So one has to be of "us" for us to care or glean from?

[Originalist]

So one AOG church isnt utterly out in the cold. (I think that is great by the way)

But Jimm-ay dont like you doing that... and as a general rule the AOG has a different perspective.

Im glad you baptize right. Its important. Even if you dont think it is.


back to the matter at hand. Jimm-ay was LOST as two boys kissing before he started knocking boots with prostitutes and he is just as lost today.

He needs the real Holy Ghost and he needs to get baptized in a meaningful manner that includes invoking the only name under heaven whereby we must be saved.

plus a good deal of repentance for a life mis-lived.

i was a licensed AoG minister when i joined the UPC in 1993. I thought I brought the "real" Holy Ghost with me. So all this time I've been a licensed UPC minister without the real Holy Ghost? Brother, I'm sorry, but I'm SSSOO glad I did not encounter oneness folk with your attitude back in 1992.

[Originalist]

As a whole I don't think WE do......the OP was a former staff member there and I think the question stems from that experience. Also I think the real question was sidestepped/got sidetracked......it was about genuine repentance/restitution.

Exactly, and "JustLookin"has been busy arguing with straw men since i created this thread. I do not even think about Jimmy's sexual sin. i'm a man. i know what temptation is like. I minister in a group that deals with sexual addiction. We are very transparent about things in this ministry. It's so great to see a place where brothers can find release without getting stones thrown at them.

This thread is about true repentance and what it looks like. JustLookin simply has no idea what he is talking about. He has no idea of the many lives that have been crushed by the absolute cruelty of JSM. That cruelty and lack of concern for people continues to this day. That is not the fruit of a truly repentant heart.

[CC1]

i was a licensed AoG minister when i joined the UPC in 1993. I thought I brought the "real" Holy Ghost with me. So all this time I've been a licensed UPC minister without the real Holy Ghost? Brother, I'm sorry, but I'm SSSOO glad I did not encounter oneness folk with your attitude back in 1992.

Yup. I was a little surprised at Ferd's strident position as I know him to be a reasonable man.*

BTW, I don't know if it was true then or now but many decades ago when I was in a UPC Bible College they said that a study had shown that something like 30% of AOG churches included "Jesus Name" in their baptismal formulas. Usually something along the line of "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost which is Jesus Christ or alternately "and" the name of Jesus Christ."

*NOTE - I do want to point out that while reasonable most times Ferd did once make me eat Texas BBQ outside in a parking lot when it was at least 100 degrees outside!

[Originalist]

Yup. I was a little surprised at Ferd's strident position as I know him to be a reasonable man.

BTW, I don't know if it was true then or now but many decades ago when I was in a UPC Bible College they said that a study had shown that something like 30% of AOG churches included "Jesus Name" in their baptismal formulas. Usually something along the line of "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost which is Jesus Christ or alternately "and" the name of Jesus Christ."

Very accurate!!

[justlookin]

Why after 26 years is Jimmy Swaggart still so obsessed with his past failure? i know why. Because he repented on HIS terms and has not made restitution to those he hurt. He has never found release. He's so obsessed with his past sins that his PRESENT doctrine of "the cross" was invented by him to white wash what he did. Yes, he is willing to distort the sacrifice of Calvary to make himself feel justified and to keep the money coming in.

You're still obsessed with his past failure and you're unable to cope with his present success. You make absolutely baseless accusations like "he repented on his terms" and "he has never found release". Those are such baseless and unprovable claims by you. Because he hasn't behaved as you demand him to behave toward you, you've carried unforgiveness and bitterness for 26 years now and apparently you like it so much you'll carry it another 26 years. You need him to address you and satisfy you so that you can be released from the hurt, the tremendous hurt, he apparently caused you 26 years ago. It's not Jimmy that's needing forgiveness, it's you needing to forgive Jimmy for hurting you. How on earth can you preach grace and forgiveness with a heart like yours?

I can smell a Swaggart cult follower a mile away. You just can't stand somebody pointing out the continuing sin of your favorite rock star.

I'm assuming that you're making the accusation against me. I've never been a Jimmy Swaggart follower, have never listened to a Jimmy Swaggart sermon and have no plans in the future to listen to Jimmy Swaggart or follow him.

So, if you're talking about me, you apparently can't smell a Jimmy Swaggart cult follower a mile away. You're outta control with your Jimmy Swaggart hatred and your heart of unforgiveness and bitterness you've cuddled and embraced for 26 years now is causing you to make wild baseless statements.

God bless men like Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker who humble themselves and try to lead by example. When Jimmy does the same, I will most definitely applaud him and support his ministry.

As a United Pentecostal minister, do you support Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker's ministries? If Jimmy does the same as Haggard and Bakker, why would you as a United Pentecostal minister support Jimmy Swaggart, a trinitarian?

Until then i will keep bringing the events of 26 years ago into proper context as a way to save unsuspecting Christians of our time who don't know the truth of what happened back then from being deceived by the cult forming in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

I doubt very seriously that anyone on this board would be a Jimmy Swaggart follower or would consider being a Jimmy Swaggart follower. The truth is, you were crushed, devastated, by a man's moral failure and you aren't healed from that two and half decades later.

[justlookin]

Lead the way...

No, I prefer my brother first! :)

[Ferd]

i was a licensed AoG minister when i joined the UPC in 1993. I thought I brought the "real" Holy Ghost with me. So all this time I've been a licensed UPC minister without the real Holy Ghost? Brother, I'm sorry, but I'm SSSOO glad I did not encounter oneness folk with your attitude back in 1992.

Bro, go back and read what I wrote. I was talking about Jimm-ay. That dude needs the real Holy Ghost!

I was not talking about you! LOL

Bro, last summer I took my little guy to a mens fellowship from an AOG church. I have a friend at work who is AOG and he has walked with me thru my sons heart issues. He invited me to this gathering so the men of his church could meet the little guy they had been praying for for 5 years. We went. They prayed for Little Ferd right there in the park we met at with boldness and I know they touched God for us that day. Just a few weeks later my little guy had heart surgery and is now perfectly fine.

my comments here may have grated, that was intentional for several reasons, none of which have to do with an attitude that you think you saw in my posts, as grating as they were intended to be.

Here are a few of my reasons.
1. Jimm-ay was and is a self possessed knucklehead who just happens to be blessed with the gift of gab and some serious musical talent. He is still a knucklehead
2. He isn't apostolic, some AOG folk are pretty much…. but the one in question here isn't.
3. I heard him preach HARD against Oneness people when I was a kid on the radio.
4. I really don't have any desire to dog pile a guy who is lost.
5. there are enough fallen men from the Apostolic ranks to pick from that an Apostolic board doesn't need to rehash the life of a never saved idiot. (Yea I said that about Jimm-Ay)

oh and sometimes its just good to say things that folks find grating.

we good now?

[Ferd]

Yup. I was a little surprised at Ferd's strident position as I know him to be a reasonable man.*

BTW, I don't know if it was true then or now but many decades ago when I was in a UPC Bible College they said that a study had shown that something like 30% of AOG churches included "Jesus Name" in their baptismal formulas. Usually something along the line of "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost which is Jesus Christ or alternately "and" the name of Jesus Christ."

*NOTE - I do want to point out that while reasonable most times Ferd did once make me eat Texas BBQ outside in a parking lot when it was at least 100 degrees outside!

I did! man it was HOT! that was terrible and I am still sorry. but the food was good!

(i have personally never once liked Jimm-ay. He has always been HARD against the UPCI… unlike a lot of AOG people that i have never had issues with. )

[Originalist]

Bro, go back and read what I wrote. I was talking about Jimm-ay. That dude needs the real Holy Ghost!

I was not talking about you! LOL

Bro, last summer I took my little guy to a mens fellowship from an AOG church. I have a friend at work who is AOG and he has walked with me thru my sons heart issues. He invited me to this gathering so the men of his church could meet the little guy they had been praying for for 5 years. We went. They prayed for Little Ferd right there in the park we met at with boldness and I know they touched God for us that day. Just a few weeks later my little guy had heart surgery and is now perfectly fine.

my comments here may have grated, that was intentional for several reasons, none of which have to do with an attitude that you think you saw in my posts, as grating as they were intended to be.

Here are a few of my reasons.
1. Jimm-ay was and is a self possessed knucklehead who just happens to be blessed with the gift of gab and some serious musical talent. He is still a knucklehead
2. He isn't apostolic, some AOG folk are pretty much…. but the one in question here isn't.
3. I heard him preach HARD against Oneness people when I was a kid on the radio.
4. I really don't have any desire to dog pile a guy who is lost.
5. there are enough fallen men from the Apostolic ranks to pick from that an Apostolic board doesn't need to rehash the life of a never saved idiot. (Yea I said that about Jimm-Ay)

oh and sometimes its just good to say things that folks find grating.

we good now?

Now you have me smiling. Sorry for the mix up!:heeheehee

I do believe Jimmy had the touch of God in his life in earlier years. But what I saw in the 4 years I was with him was an inexcusably rude and hurtful soul.

[Originalist]

You're still obsessed with his past failure and you're unable to cope with his present success.

The slanderer on here is you. I've explained myself concerning Jimmy's failure. You just can't handle it.

You make absolutely baseless accusations like "he repented on his terms" and "he has never found release". Those are such baseless and unprovable claims by you.

Baseless and unprovable? Hmm. Let's see. I was there, you were not. I know what I'm talking about. Did that group of men who met with him about a week after his confession lie to me when they quoted Jimmy as saying to them, "I have not sinned. I realize now it was my flesh that sinned but my spirit remained pure".

Because he hasn't behaved as you demand him to behave toward you, you've carried unforgiveness and bitterness for 26 years now and apparently you like it so much you'll carry it another 26 years. You need him to address you and satisfy you so that you can be released from the hurt, the tremendous hurt, he apparently caused you 26 years ago. It's not Jimmy that's needing forgiveness, it's you needing to forgive Jimmy for hurting you. How on earth can you preach grace and forgiveness with a heart like yours?

You are so totally clueless. I have never held animosity towards the man, even after he screamed in my face at the top of his lungs. I pity the man. But i will warn people of his false doctrine and expose the falseness of his repentance which I witnessed first hand.



I'm assuming that you're making the accusation against me. I've never been a Jimmy Swaggart follower, have never listened to a Jimmy Swaggart sermon and have no plans in the future to listen to Jimmy Swaggart or follow him.

Then you really are not qualified to even comment.


As a United Pentecostal minister, do you support Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker's ministries? If Jimmy does the same as Haggard and Bakker, why would you as a United Pentecostal minister support Jimmy Swaggart, a trinitarian?

Again coming on here with superior attitude. I, like many of our Apostolic founders, consider many Trinitarians to be true brothers in Christ and fellowship with them. You really should not paint us all with such a broad brush.



I doubt very seriously that anyone on this board would be a Jimmy Swaggart follower or would consider being a Jimmy Swaggart follower. The truth is, you were crushed, devastated, by a man's moral failure and you aren't healed from that two and half decades later.

if it somehow makes you feel better to feel that way about me, then go right ahead. God and i know the truth on the matter. I have unique insight to a man that apostatized doctrinally before my very eyes and refused to repent on God's terms. My eyes were squarely on Jesus Christ when it happened and it surprised me very little, much less devastate me. I saw the warning signs back in 1985. I could not accept what God was showing me, but it turned out to be right. Again, you are talking like you are some kind of expert when you are totally clueless.

And as far as being "jealous of his success".......BBBWWWAAAHHHAAAHHAA................I hardly call putting up black curtains to hide the fact that only 300 people are worshiping in your once packed 7000 seat auditorium as the kind of "success" one would be jealous of.

[votivesoul]

My take on repentance:

Private sins committed against God alone require only private confession and repentance to God alone.

Sins that include or were against other people and God require confession and repentance to the other people and God.

Public sins against a multitude and God require public confession and repentance to the multitude and God.

Repentance starts first as a heart change coming under the conviction that sin has been committed. First, confession and repentance should be made to God. When He grants repentance and remission, a moral inventory of any other people hurt by the sin needs to be taken, and those people, to the best of one's ability, should be sought out, confessed to, apologized to, and asked for forgiveness.

Any damage done that can be restored (i.e. restitution) ought to be offered up to the best of one's ability.

Complete forsaking of the sin with accountability to God and others must also be present.

Lacking these criteria, I think it is legitimate to at least question and wonder if repentance has fully taken place, since fruits meet for repentance are required. That is, proof beyond mere say so, should be available for inspection, especially by those against whom the sin was committed.

Consider an unknown person attending a church service for the first time asking to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Shouldn't the elders of that assembly at least wonder if this person has truly repented of their sins? Don't they have a right to make inquiries into this person's background and experience in Christianity?

How much more so should a person who used to have a mega-ministry be thoroughly investigated and so, if the correct thing to do, have the stigma of his sin removed?

Being cleared of the reproach of sin is Biblical. Paul commended the Corinthians for clearing themselves in the matter of the un-repentant fornicator (See 2 Corinthians 7).

The bottom-line is: God can forgive sin, but it doesn't mean He does so promiscuously just for the joy of it.

Forgiveness isn't our simply for the taking. Conditions apply.

[Originalist]

My take on repentance:

Private sins committed against God alone require only private confession and repentance to God alone.

Sins that include or were against other people and God require confession and repentance to the other people and God.

Public sins against a multitude and God require public confession and repentance to the multitude and God.

Repentance starts first as a heart change coming under the conviction that sin has been committed. First, confession and repentance should be made to God. When He grants repentance and remission, a moral inventory of any other people hurt by the sin needs to be taken, and those people, to the best of one's ability, should be sought out, confessed to, apologized to, and asked for forgiveness.

Any damage done that can be restored (i.e. restitution) ought to be offered up to the best of one's ability.

Complete forsaking of the sin with accountability to God and others must also be present.

Lacking these criteria, I think it is legitimate to at least question and wonder if repentance has fully taken place, since fruits meet for repentance are required. That is, proof beyond mere say so, should be available for inspection, especially by those against whom the sin was committed.

Consider an unknown person attending a church service for the first time asking to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Shouldn't the elders of that assembly at least wonder if this person has truly repented of their sins? Don't they have a right to make inquiries into this person's background and experience in Christianity?

How much more so should a person who used to have a mega-ministry be thoroughly investigated and so, if the correct thing to do, have the stigma of his sin removed?

Being cleared of the reproach of sin is Biblical. Paul commended the Corinthians for clearing themselves in the matter of the un-repentant fornicator (See 2 Corinthians 7).

The bottom-line is: God can forgive sin, but it doesn't mean He does so promiscuously just for the joy of it.

Forgiveness isn't our simply for the taking. Conditions apply.



:thumbsup

[Jermyn Davidson]

No, you're gloating over the failure of a weak Christian who isn't part of the oneness movement.

I ask again, are you going to have a Terry Black anniversary? Are you going to keep posting Terry Black's sins, his failures, his weaknesses year after year.
Of course you aren't. You're going to keep picking on non-oneness folks who fail.

26 years later you're bringing it up. Makes me to wonder what spirit you're of.

WOW!
I can't believe how far out in left field you are with this and your other responses towards Originalist in this thread.

It is so obvious that you don't know what you're talking about at all.

:(

[houston]

i was a licensed AoG minister when i joined the UPC in 1993. I thought I brought the "real" Holy Ghost with me. So all this time I've been a licensed UPC minister without the real Holy Ghost? Brother, I'm sorry, but I'm SSSOO glad I did not encounter oneness folk with your attitude back in 1992.

Amen

[CC1]

I did! man it was HOT! that was terrible and I am still sorry. but the food was good!

(i have personally never once liked Jimm-ay. He has always been HARD against the UPCI… unlike a lot of AOG people that i have never had issues with. )

You better be glad it was indeed very good BBQ or I would have never forgiven you!:happydance

[Originalist]

WOW!
I can't believe how far out in left field you are with this and your other responses towards Originalist in this thread.

It is so obvious that you don't know what you're talking about at all.

:(

Thank you brother. I appreciate your remarks. I have had invitations to speak publicly on this subject over the years but have chosen not to. I even had a chance to be on Heraldo program. I didn't do it. I'm not out to hurt the Swaggarts.