Shouting at NAYC

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yes! Great post EB ! I had not heard the Nimrods rocket one before! That is funny!

It wasn't Brother Stoneking, but a preacher on Holy Ghost Radio (https://holyghostradio.com/). :)

[Thinker]

What Did I Miss???????

[Pendragon]

Lee Stoneking is an eccentric man who has devoted his entire life to following Jesus. He is also deeply spiritual in the sense that he is constantly looking for the working of God here on earth. This almost monk-like existence and his eccentricity result in some very strange beliefs that he shares from the pulpit. It does not mean he is a bad person who is trying to lead anyone astray. If you have half a brain you can see separate the wheat from the chaff in his sermons. Despite his eccentricity, his life bears the Fruit of the Spirit and he does amazing things for God.

There are many here who are extremely quick to stick a knife in the back of any preacher who doesn't precisely line up with their idea of what a man of God should be. I have never met a single preacher, prophet, teacher, evangelist who didn't have at least some flaws, and I've heard every single preacher say something from across the pulpit that wasn't quite right. Most of the time it is urban legends they are passing on from Facebook, sometimes they are incorrectly interpreting the scripture, and other times they are sharing some Biblically unsound personal belief, such as HMH. There are no perfect ministers. A minister is no different than any other believer, they just have a different job. Look at your own unwashed sepulchers and stop criticizing so much. If the minister is bearing fruit and correctly teaching fundamental doctrines, cut them some slack and separate the wheat from the chaff. If you think you have actually found a preacher who never says anything incorrect from across the pulpit, maybe you should get your ears checked.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Lee Stoneking is an eccentric man who has devoted his entire life to following Jesus. He is also deeply spiritual in the sense that he is constantly looking for the working of God here on earth. This almost monk-like existence and his eccentricity result in some very strange beliefs that he shares from the pulpit. It does not mean he is a bad person who is trying to lead anyone astray. If you have half a brain you can see separate the wheat from the chaff in his sermons. Despite his eccentricity, his life bears the Fruit of the Spirit and he does amazing things for God.

There are many here who are extremely quick to stick a knife in the back of any preacher who doesn't precisely line up with their idea of what a man of God should be. I have never met a single preacher, prophet, teacher, evangelist who didn't have at least some flaws, and I've heard every single preacher say something from across the pulpit that wasn't quite right. Most of the time it is urban legends they are passing on from Facebook, sometimes they are incorrectly interpreting the scripture, and other times they are sharing some Biblically unsound personal belief, such as HMH. There are no perfect ministers. A minister is no different than any other believer, they just have a different job. Look at your own unwashed sepulchers and stop criticizing so much. If the minister is bearing fruit and correctly teaching fundamental doctrines, cut them some slack and separate the wheat from the chaff. If you think you have actually found a preacher who never says anything incorrect from across the pulpit, maybe you should get your ears checked.

:highfive :thumbsup :yourock :nod :amen :bliss :yahoo :clap :cheer :woohoo :happydance

[Pressing-On]

This almost monk-like existence and his eccentricity result in some very strange beliefs that he shares from the pulpit.
.

:hmmm

[houston]

Lots of excuses going around.

[houston]

If I were a minister I would want to be held accountable. I wouldn't want people to make excuses for me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

If I were a minister I would want to be held accountable. I wouldn't want people to make excuses for me.

It happens, but I'm not in his circle of influence so his talking to has to come from "his" elders.

[n david]

Lee Stoneking is an eccentric man who has devoted his entire life to following Jesus. He is also deeply spiritual in the sense that he is constantly looking for the working of God here on earth. This almost monk-like existence and his eccentricity result in some very strange beliefs that he shares from the pulpit. It does not mean he is a bad person who is trying to lead anyone astray. If you have half a brain you can see separate the wheat from the chaff in his sermons. Despite his eccentricity, his life bears the Fruit of the Spirit and he does amazing things for God.

There are many here who are extremely quick to stick a knife in the back of any preacher who doesn't precisely line up with their idea of what a man of God should be. I have never met a single preacher, prophet, teacher, evangelist who didn't have at least some flaws, and I've heard every single preacher say something from across the pulpit that wasn't quite right. Most of the time it is urban legends they are passing on from Facebook, sometimes they are incorrectly interpreting the scripture, and other times they are sharing some Biblically unsound personal belief, such as HMH. There are no perfect ministers. A minister is no different than any other believer, they just have a different job. Look at your own unwashed sepulchers and stop criticizing so much. If the minister is bearing fruit and correctly teaching fundamental doctrines, cut them some slack and separate the wheat from the chaff. If you think you have actually found a preacher who never says anything incorrect from across the pulpit, maybe you should get your ears checked.
*drops mic

:thumbsup :yourock

[Pressing-On]

It happens, but I'm not in his circle of influence so his talking to has to come from "his" elders.

That's interesting. In your previous post you have a zillion Smilies to indicate, along with David, that you agree, anyone who thinks LS needs a talking to is an "unwashed sepulcher".

I get that God can use us, even when we are wrong about some things. We could use Peter and Paul as an example. Peter needed a better understanding between the Old Covenant and the New. Paul provides that and they move along.

Pendragon agrees that LS shares some very strange beliefs from the pulpit, but that is a-okay - let it stand.

I can't wrap my brain around that.

I agree with Houston. I would want someone to correct me. :thumbsup

And I am thinking, being LS is a grown man, that might be a-okay to do that.

After all, Daniel Segraves thought it was necessary on the "magic hair" issue. So, if LS keeps steamrolling the "strange beliefs from the pulpit", it might be necessary to shuck the unfounded and accusatory accusation on the "unwashed sepulcher".

Perhaps Pendragon, you and David, believe that Daniel Segraves is an "unwashed sepulcher"?

[Steve Epley]

The shout did not hurt anyone and may have helped someone you wasn't there so why would you care? They shouted in the Bible sometimes it brought victory other times it accomplished nothing. It is Biblical that is the bottom line.

[houston]

The shout did not hurt anyone and may have helped someone you wasn't there so why would you care? They shouted in the Bible sometimes it brought victory other times it accomplished nothing. It is Biblical that is the bottom line.

The ends always justify the means with you people.

[n david]

The ends always justify the means with you people.
Are you drunk again? Perhaps you should wait to criticize a minister until you're sober.

[n david]

The shout did not hurt anyone and may have helped someone you wasn't there so why would you care? They shouted in the Bible sometimes it brought victory other times it accomplished nothing. It is Biblical that is the bottom line.
Exactly. :thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

The shout did not hurt anyone and may have helped someone you wasn't there so why would you care? They shouted in the Bible sometimes it brought victory other times it accomplished nothing. It is Biblical that is the bottom line.

Brother Epley, I always love and respect you, and I understand what you and Ferd are saying, but there is still a problem with advocating an emotional appeal that is not founded on truth. The air molecule concept is not factual.

Are we advocating the position that we don't care what is said, it's only important if we get a response?

You simply cannot stand up in a crowd of emotional young people and place the focus on their "voices shredding the air'.

It was disappointing to me that a group of young people came back and talked about their "decibel level" fighting the "prince of the power of the air".

It is our faith and the power of the Holy Ghost.

I agree with my husband. We should never teach people that you must make noise to get something from God, it doesn't have a lasting effect, and it can cause a person to become weak in their faith during a time of testing.

[Pressing-On]

Are you drunk again? Perhaps you should wait to criticize a minister until you're sober.

Well, thank you for acting like a jerk today.

[n david]

Perhaps Pendragon, you and David, believe that Daniel Segraves is an "unwashed sepulcher"?
No, he was pretty specific in who was being referred to as an unwashed sepulcher. :lol :nod

[Pressing-On]

The ends always justify the means with you people.

What it reminds me of is a message I heard at BOTT. Billy Cole says, in a regular tone, "God is doing great things." Barely a response. Then he yells, "GOD IS DOING GREAT THINGS!!!!!" The crowd goes wild.

He said, "Do you see what you did? You didn't respond to what I said, you responded to how I said it."

He speaks a little while and does the same thing. The audience responds the same way.

He says, "See? You did it again, but we will learn."

I'm afraid we haven't learned a thing.

[Pressing-On]

No, he was pretty specific in who was being referred to as an unwashed sepulcher. :lol :nod

Yes, I got that - anyone who points out an obvious and fanciful error.

[houston]

What it reminds me of is a message I heard at BOTT. Billy Cole says, in a regular tone, "God is doing great things." Barely a response. Then he yells, "GOD IS DOING GREAT THINGS!!!!!" The crowd goes wild.

He said, "Do you see what you did? You didn't respond to what I said, you responded to how I said it."

He speaks a little while and does the same thing. The audience responds the same way.

He says, "See? You did it again, but we will learn."

I'm afraid we haven't learned a thing.
Not a thing.

[Pressing-On]

Not a thing.

We just had a guest, who we had invited so that this person could be saved, not come back because they were challenged, "If you don't get out in the aisle and lift your voice, there is something wrong with your walk with God."

The excuse. "Yes, I know, newcomers don't understand our ways. They weren't raised in this."

I could have simply died. My guest is here? Hello! The effects of "shredding the air molecules". Go figure.

[n david]

It was disappointing to me that a group of young people came back and talked about their "decibel level" fighting the "prince of the power of the air".
Here we go again. You're accusing LS of something which he didn't even say. If someone misinterprets what was said, it's their issue, not LS'. Show me where LS said anything about a "decibel level." You keep accusing him of this "decibel level" phrase, so please show us where LS said it. If not, please refrain from falsely accusing the man. Good grief. If I did that to you, you would be incensed! Yet, you continue to do so, even after I've pointed out your error.

It is our faith and the power of the Holy Ghost.
LS believes and preaches this. Nearly every message he preaches is on faith or power of the Name of Jesus.

And, again, if these kids don't know about faith or power of the Holy Ghost, there's a much bigger issue.

[n david]

Well, thank you for acting like a jerk today.
Because I'm the one making false accusations? :nah

[Pressing-On]

Here we go again. You're accusing LS of something which he didn't even say. If someone misinterprets what was said, it's their issue, not LS'. Show me where LS said anything about a "decibel level." You keep accusing him of this "decibel level" phrase, so please show us where LS said it. If not, please refrain from falsely accusing the man. Good grief. If I did that to you, you would be incensed! Yet, you continue to do so, even after I've pointed out your error.
Excuse me. Do you need glasses or a reading comprehension course? I said, this is what the understanding the young people came away with.


LS believes and preaches this. Nearly every message he preaches is on faith or power of the Name of Jesus.

And, again, if these kids don't know about faith or power of the Holy Ghost, there's a much bigger issue.

Do me a favor. Line out your Bible study. I will provide the title:

"With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."

Do it! :D

[Pressing-On]

Because I'm the one making false accusations? :nah

Houston's observation is not a false accusation. You accused him of being drunk. Isn't that a false accusation? Can you prove that he is drunk? Or can you prove you are acting like a jerk? My guess is you can prove the last point. :heeheehee

[n david]

We just had a guest, who we had invited so that this person could be saved, not come back because they were challenged, "If you don't get out in the aisle and lift your voice, there is something wrong with your walk with God."

The excuse. "Yes, I know, newcomers don't understand our ways. They weren't raised in this."

I could have simply died. My guest is here? Hello! The effects of "shredding the air molecules". Go figure.
:Toofunny

How absurd! That wasn't LS' fault! Good grief. That kind of phrase has been used in churches for years, Iooong before LS was around or preaching.

For what else will you blame on LS? You're like the libs blaming Bush for every stupid and ignorant thing imaginable...just because, Bush.

[n david]

Houston's observation is not a false accusation. You accused him of being drunk. Isn't that a false accusation? Can you prove that he is drunk? Or can you prove you are acting like a jerk? My guess is you can prove the last point. :heeheehee
Did you see the question mark? It was a question, not a statement.

[n david]

Excuse me. Do you need glasses or a reading comprehension course? I said, this is what the understanding the young people came away with.
The young people's misunderstand is not LS' problem. You admit he didn't say anything about decibel levels, so stop accusing him of it and, if you want to do something helpful, correct the misunderstand.

Do me a favor. Line out your Bible study. I will provide the title:

"With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."

Do it! :D
You need brain surgery.

:lol

[Pressing-On]

Did you see the question mark? It was a question, not a statement.

You didn't have to ask a question. You know it was his observation. You need to apologize to him. You might not agree with where he is in life personally, but when I pray for him, all I get is what God tells me - "His life is valuable to me, and there is in him the ability to affect great change for the Kingdom of God."

[Pressing-On]

The young people's misunderstand is not LS' problem. You admit he didn't say anything about decibel levels, so stop accusing him of it and, if you want to do something helpful, correct the misunderstand.


You need brain surgery.

:lol

David, Give me a Bible study. I'm waiting. It's been my point all along. I WANT a Bible study with this topic - air molecules shred the air. :D

[Pressing-On]

:Toofunny

How absurd! That wasn't LS' fault! Good grief. That kind of phrase has been used in churches for years, Iooong before LS was around or preaching.

For what else will you blame on LS? You're like the libs blaming Bush for every stupid and ignorant thing imaginable...just because, Bush.

Yes, it was. Why? Because he said, "With a little STUDY, I FOUND OUT..."

Again, not yelling at you, just focusing on wording. :D

So, give me a Bible study on that "information". I'm waiting.

[n david]

You didn't have to ask a question. You know it was his observation. You need to apologize to him. You might not agree with where he is in life personally, but when I pray for him, all I get is what God tells me - "His life is valuable to me, and there is in him the ability to affect great change for the Kingdom of God."
I'll apologize after you apologize for your false accusations and personal vendetta against LS. I mean, now you're even falsely accusing him of being the reason your visitors haven't been back to church. Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

You may not agree with LS' use of an example, but the man's fruit bears witness of itself.

[Pressing-On]

I'll apologize after you apologize for your false accusations and personal vendetta against LS. I mean, now you're even falsely accusing him of being the reason your visitors haven't been back to church. Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

You may not agree with LS' use of an example, but the man's fruit bears witness of itself.

Well, JA has also born fruit, but you didn't mind running him through the ringer.

And, yes, things we say have far reaching effects, i.e., "magic hair". Hello.

[n david]

Yes, it was. Why? Because he said, "With a little STUDY, I FOUND OUT..."

Again, not yelling at you, just focusing on wording. :D
Oh, was LS at your church, giving that message again?

No, it was someone else saying a generic, Pentecostal quote which has been said in various forms for years before LS ever mentioned anything about sound waves displacing molecules? Then it's not his fault!

Your intense dislike of LS is making you make some pretty stupid accusations.

[n david]

Well, JA has also born fruit, but you didn't mind running him through the ringer.
He attacked another minister. I would run LS or any other minister through the ringer if they publicly attacked and insulted another minister. JA apologized and it's in the past.

Apples and bowling balls.

I mean unless you believe LS insulted and attacked a minister with that message.

And I remember you went on and on about how hard it must be for JA to be in the spotlight all the time with so much intense scrutiny on everything he says, so you wouldn't dare join the criticism against him.

Yet you falsely accuse LS.

Flip flop much?

[Pressing-On]

Oh, was LS at your church, giving that message again?

No, it was someone else saying a generic, Pentecostal quote which has been said in various forms for years before LS ever mentioned anything about sound waves displacing molecules? Then it's not his fault!

Your intense dislike of LS is making you make some pretty stupid accusations.

I don't dislike him at all, David. You are getting way to emotional about this.

I have a profound problem with this statement and equating it with the Word of God:

"With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."

Quoting again, from Pendragon:

This almost monk-like existence and his eccentricity result in some very strange beliefs that he shares from the pulpit. .

I'm wondering if Apostle Paul would allow that excuse from Peter. I'm thinking he wouldn't.

Again, if this is part of his character, someone needs to speak to him about it.

[Pressing-On]

He attacked another minister. I would run LS or any other minister through the ringer if they publicly attacked and insulted another minister. JA apologized and it's in the past.

Apples and bowling balls.

I mean unless you believe LS insulted and attacked a minister with that message.

And I remember you went on and on about how hard it must be for JA to be in the spotlight all the time with so much intense scrutiny on everything he says, so you wouldn't dare join the criticism against him.

Yet you falsely accuse LS.

Flip flop much?

So what if JS commented on a quote he thought was stupid. Did Apostle Paul confront Peter? Yes, he sure did.

[n david]

And, yes, things we say have far reaching effects, i.e., "magic hair". Hello.
Have you, or anyone else here for that matter, heard LS talk of HMH in the past few years, since his public reprimand by Bro Seagraves in the Herald?

I've watched several messages of LS from within the past year to two years and haven't heard anymore about it. I haven't heard every message, so it's possible he may have.

If he's not preaching it anymore, how long are you all going to hold it against him?

[n david]

I don't dislike him at all, David.
You do dislike LS, which is why you've now accused him of being the reason for a couple visitors not returning to your church.

You have an intense dislike for him. If not, you would've let this go already. But you can't because you don't like LS.

Let it go, let it go...

[Pressing-On]

Have you, or anyone else here for that matter, heard LS talk of HMH in the past few years, since his public reprimand by Bro Seagraves in the Herald?

I've watched several messages of LS from within the past year to two years and haven't heard anymore about it. I haven't heard every message, so it's possible he may have.

If he's not preaching it anymore, how long are you all going to hold it against him?

That isn't the point. He isn't preaching it because it has been addressed!

Anyway, we are still talking about this because Pendragon brought the thread up again.

There isn't anything new you and I have to say and we haven't changed our minds.

So, let's enjoy the day today.

[Pressing-On]

You do dislike LS, which is why you've now accused him of being the reason for a couple visitors not returning to your church.

You have an intense dislike for him. If not, you would've let this go already. But you can't because you don't like LS.

Let it go, let it go...

You sure seemed like you had your "dislike" on for JA, David. :heeheehee

[n david]

So what if JS commented on a quote he thought was stupid. Did Apostle Paul confront Peter? Yes, he sure did.
JA wasn't calling the quote an idiot which needed brain surgery. Nice try. JA recognized his error and apologized. Had it been about the quote, no apology would have been needed.

JA attacking and insulting another minister is not comparable to Paul and Peter.

You can offer excuses, but anyone can go back and view your posts to see your double standard and flip flop here.

No one is under more scrutiny than LS, and rightfully so. Yet unlike JA, whom you refused to call out for his error, you're more than willing to call out and even falsely accuse LS. And LS didn't attack and insult another minister. LS' unpardonable sin was using an example you don't like or agree with.

[n david]

You sure seemed like you had your "dislike" on for JA, David. :heeheehee
Again, there was cause. He attacked another minister. How many times must this be said. Also, I've let it go and have been blessed by several messages preached by JA since his unfortunate outburst.

As I previously posted, I would do the same with LS or any other minister who did what JA did.

Please show me where LS attacked a minister or committed some unpardonable sin?

[Pressing-On]

JA wasn't calling the quote an idiot which needed brain surgery. Nice try. JA recognized his error and apologized. Had it been about the quote, no apology would have been needed.

JA attacking and insulting another minister is not comparable to Paul and Peter.

You can offer excuses, but anyone can go back and view your posts to see your double standard and flip flop here.

No one is under more scrutiny than LS, and rightfully so. Yet unlike JA, whom you refused to call out for his error, you're more than willing to call out and even falsely accuse LS. And LS didn't attack and insult another minister. LS' unpardonable sin was using an example you don't like or agree with.

:blah:blah:blah

[n david]

:blah:blah:blah
Can't argue the truth. :lol

[n david]

Houston, I apologize for my post. It was rude and wrong. You didn't deserve that.

[Pressing-On]

Houston, I apologize for my post. It was rude and wrong. You didn't deserve that.

Lovely! :highfive

[votivesoul]

Deuteronomy 18:22,

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

It doesn't matter how much a prophet invokes the name of the Lord, if what they promise doesn't come to pass, that prophet need not be revered as an actual messenger of the Lord.

Young people ride the high of every conference and camp until about a month later, it wears off, until the next fix comes along. When God delivers someone, it is permanent, unless the delivered soul allows themselves to be drawn away again by their own lusts, back to the very thing from which God delivered them.

Forget air molecules, the human voice, and all that. Promises were made to the people of God:

1.) That they would be delivered from all fear and inhibition. Testimony has been shared that some youth have experienced this. Praise God. But is it a true deliverance, or a result of a temporary supernatural high?

Time will tell, but as with so many young people in the Apostolic Pentecostal Church, they suffer from the equivalent of an addiction. Each conference and camp acts like a fix to get them through, until they crash a few weeks or a month later, and the youth pastor/worker has to try to scrape them off the floor. Then the next camp or conference occurs, and they are riding high again.

This isn't true of every single young person, but of many. Too many are not being taught daily discipleship and victorious living. They are just being taught to go from camp to camp, swing their ties around during the altar call, jump and sweat a whole bunch, and wash, rinse, and repeat.

Being a camp junkie is a constant issue all over the movement. If we can't see it, maybe it's because we're a camp junkie?

2.) They were told "It's on you!". The "it" was the power to heal the eyes of the blind, to open the ears of the deaf, to cause the lame to walk, and even to raise the dead. Forget what I believe about the subject of gifts and apostleship, and ask yourself, if in the shout God had really delivered them all of all fear and inhibition, then once He put this nation-changing, large scale revival-sparking power to do 1st century miracles upon His young people, then why have none of them apparently been used by God to do so? Are they too afraid and inhibited to step out in faith and do the greater works?

Where are the testimonies? We've heard that some have come back charged up and rearing to go (are they still?), and some have come back confused. But someone somewhere, who comes to this message board, have you heard of a single major miracle regarding the blind, the deaf, the lame, or the dead since NAYC?

Just one, and I'll take it all back!

If none are forthcoming, it's just another promise made to people that didn't come to pass.

That, brethren, is the real faith killer, to cause people to believe something that God didn't promise.

Ask yourself a question, if God is doing all this speaking, and specifically so, to give line by line instruction of His will, why is He seemingly silent regarding telling someone that what they believe about a subject isn't true?

If I was preaching 2+2=22, and was going around claiming "God told me..." about other things, why in the world would God ignore the OBVIOUS real issue---that I'm deceived---to keep filling my head with those other things?

We may as well preach evolution as to say the human voice shreds air molecules. And yet, with all of this stuff floating around, from pulpit to pulpit, God never once takes the time, in ALL OF HIS SPEAKING, to mention the fact that this other stuff is bunk?

The "God told me" card is destroying the movement. We are spiritual enough without having to throw God under the bus for everything we say or do. Jeremiah was a prophet for 33 years, and in all that time, we only have a record of the Word of the Lord coming to him between 40-50 times.

The way we act, some of us think God speaks that much to us (or others) individually speaking, in just one year (for example: every sermon).

A prophet of old called to write forever settled in heaven Holy Scripture gets to hear God's voice that many times in his life, and we, not called to that level, get to have God talk to us, over the course of a life, thousands of times?

[votivesoul]

I just purchased Voice of a Prophet by A.W. Tozer.

How thankful I am and how helpful this book has been. It's a reminder, even a breath of fresh air. I didn't know what I was buying last Thursday, it just seemed interesting, but boy oh boy has it been timely.

From the first chapter "Whose Church, Is It, Really?", he mentions how various sons of the prophets (who never produce another actual prophet like Elisha) can disguise the message that is supposed to be preached, with the following:

1.) Make it sensational
2.) Make it emotional
3.) Make it entertaining

If that doesn't summarize so much of what we see in our movement, then ban me.

Some other quotes:

"The sons of the prophets...are very selective about the truth they present. What they present is true, but what they leave out is devastating" (pg. 22, emphasis mine).

"Nowadays, the messenger is more important than the message. The message depends upon celebrities to carry it..." (pg. 23).

Any and all can disagree with me to the grave, but if this isn't an indictment against the modern Apostolic Pentecostal Church, then what is?

[Pressing-On]

Deuteronomy 18:22,



It doesn't matter how much a prophet invokes the name of the Lord, if what they promise doesn't come to pass, that prophet need not be revered as an actual messenger of the Lord.

Young people ride the high of every conference and camp until about a month later, it wears off, until the next fix comes along. When God delivers someone, it is permanent, unless the delivered soul allows themselves to be drawn away again by their own lusts, back to the very thing from which God delivered them.

Forget air molecules, the human voice, and all that. Promises were made to the people of God:

1.) That they would be delivered from all fear and inhibition. Testimony has been shared that some youth have experienced this. Praise God. But is it a true deliverance, or a result of a temporary supernatural high?

Time will tell, but as with so many young people in the Apostolic Pentecostal Church, they suffer from the equivalent of an addiction. Each conference and camp acts like a fix to get them through, until they crash a few weeks or a month later, and the youth pastor/worker has to try to scrape them off the floor. Then the next camp or conference occurs, and they are riding high again.

This isn't true of every single young person, but of many. Too many are not being taught daily discipleship and victorious living. They are just being taught to go from camp to camp, swing their ties around during the altar call, jump and sweat a whole bunch, and wash, rinse, and repeat.

Being a camp junkie is a constant issue all over the movement. If we can't see it, maybe it's because we're a camp junkie?

2.) They were told "It's on you!". The "it" was the power to heal the eyes of the blind, to open the ears of the deaf, to cause the lame to walk, and even to raise the dead. Forget what I believe about the subject of gifts and apostleship, and ask yourself, if in the shout God had really delivered them all of all fear and inhibition, then once He put this nation-changing, large scale revival-sparking power to do 1st century miracles upon His young people, then why have none of them apparently been used by God to do so? Are they too afraid and inhibited to step out in faith and do the greater works?

Where are the testimonies? We've heard that some have come back charged up and rearing to go (are they still?), and some have come back confused. But someone somewhere, who comes to this message board, have you heard of a single major miracle regarding the blind, the deaf, the lame, or the dead since NAYC?

Just one, and I'll take it all back!

If none are forthcoming, it's just another promise made to people that didn't come to pass.

That, brethren, is the real faith killer, to cause people to believe something that God didn't promise.

Ask yourself a question, if God is doing all this speaking, and specifically so, to give line by line instruction of His will, why is He seemingly silent regarding telling someone that what they believe about a subject isn't true?

If I was preaching 2+2=22, and was going around claiming "God told me..." about other things, why in the world would God ignore the OBVIOUS real issue---that I'm deceived---to keep filling my head with those other things?

We may as well preach evolution as to say the human voice shreds air molecules. And yet, with all of this stuff floating around, from pulpit to pulpit, God never once takes the time, in ALL OF HIS SPEAKING, to mention the fact that this other stuff is bunk?

The "God told me" card is destroying the movement. We are spiritual enough without having to throw God under the bus for everything we say or do. Jeremiah was a prophet for 33 years, and in all that time, we only have a record of the Word of the Lord coming to him between 40-50 times.

The way we act, some of us think God speaks that much to us (or others) individually speaking, in just one year (for example: every sermon).

A prophet of old called to write forever settled in heaven Holy Scripture gets to hear God's voice that many times in his life, and we, not called to that level, get to have God talk to us, over the course of a life, thousands of times?
Excellent!!! :thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

I just purchased Voice of a Prophet by A.W. Tozer.

How thankful I am and how helpful this book has been. It's a reminder, even a breath of fresh air. I didn't know what I was buying last Thursday, it just seemed interesting, but boy oh boy has it been timely.

From the first chapter "Whose Church, Is It, Really?", he mentions how various sons of the prophets (who never produce another actual prophet like Elisha) can disguise the message that is supposed to be preached, with the following:

1.) Make it sensational
2.) Make it emotional
3.) Make it entertaining

If that doesn't summarize so much of what we see in our movement, then ban me.

Some other quotes:

"The sons of the prophets...are very selective about the truth they present. What they present is true, but what they leave out is devastating" (pg. 22, emphasis mine).

"Nowadays, the messenger is more important than the message. The message depends upon celebrities to carry it..." (pg. 23).

Any and all can disagree with me to the grave, but if this isn't an indictment against the modern Apostolic Pentecostal Church, then what is?

:yourock

[Steve Epley]

The ends always justify the means with you people.

The BIBLE is the BOTTOM LINE with us people unlike YOU people!!!!!

[n david]

It doesn't matter how much a prophet invokes the name of the Lord, if what they promise doesn't come to pass, that prophet need not be revered as an actual messenger of the Lord.
Did LS claim to be a prophet? Has anyone claimed LS to be a prophet?

2.) They were told "It's on you!". The "it" was the power to heal the eyes of the blind, to open the ears of the deaf, to cause the lame to walk, and even to raise the dead. Forget what I believe about the subject of gifts and apostleship, and ask yourself, if in the shout God had really delivered them all of all fear and inhibition, then once He put this nation-changing, large scale revival-sparking power to do 1st century miracles upon His young people, then why have none of them apparently been used by God to do so? Are they too afraid and inhibited to step out in faith and do the greater works?
Do you know for a fact this has not happened? Unless you know, absolutely 100% know beyond any doubt, then you need to shut up and stop mocking.

Where are the testimonies? We've heard that some have come back charged up and rearing to go (are they still?), and some have come back confused. But someone somewhere, who comes to this message board, have you heard of a single major miracle regarding the blind, the deaf, the lame, or the dead since NAYC?
Just who in the devil's hell do you think you are? Certainly no minister or man of God. The devil is using you in these posts. And yes, I'm absolutely serious. And no, I won't apologize.

Just one, and I'll take it all back!
No, you'd just say it was a lie, or make some excuse. You don't want this to be true.

If none are forthcoming, it's just another promise made to people that didn't come to pass.
"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers (you!), walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as..they were..from the beginning of the creation."

Mock on, but this will come to pass, and you will stand in judgement for your unbelief.

The "God told me" card is destroying the movement. We are spiritual enough without having to throw God under the bus for everything we say or do. Jeremiah was a prophet for 33 years, and in all that time, we only have a record of the Word of the Lord coming to him between 40-50 times.
Again, who in the devil's hell do you think you are claiming God really didn't speak to LS.

Are you God?

[n david]

Excellent!!! :thumbsup
That wasn't excellent. It was pathetic. It's what the devil wants people to believe.

The devil wants us to believe that God doesn't speak to us; that the miraculous doesn't happen; that if something doesn't happen immediately after impartation then it must not be true.

The devil (and Votive) is a liar!

[n david]

Is the Bible a lie, votive? It says Jesus was coming back again, but it hasn't happened.

Is God a liar, Votive? Is the Bible a lie?

Thousands of years have passed since the Bible claims Jesus said He would come back in clouds of glory. Hasn't happened.

According to you, God is a liar. The Bible is a lie. A promise was made THOUSANDS of years ago and NOTHING!

So, omniscient one, what is it?

[n david]

God does speak to His people even today. He does perform the miraculous.

I'm not allowing some cynical doubter post lies and deception.

[Pressing-On]

That wasn't excellent. It was pathetic. It's what the devil wants people to believe.

The devil wants us to believe that God doesn't speak to us; that the miraculous doesn't happen; that if something doesn't happen immediately after impartation then it must not be true.

The devil (and Votive) is a liar!

David, That wasn't votivesoul's point. He was concerned about three things - sensationalism, emotionalism and entertainment.

You are pretty much calling Votivesoul a liar while taking his words out of context. You aren't having a good day. :heeheehee

No one is surprised that the youth had a great time at NAYC. They always do.

What votivesoul was focusing on is the results and lasting affects that normally accompany these meetings. Call me a skeptic, but from years of observation, we have our kids during the summer and have to fight to reign them in when school starts. Which means, for many of them, there wasn't any depth that grabbed them during the conference. No, we don't like to talk about these things, but it's the truth.

That doesn't mean that it didn't affect some. It's a no-brainer. The average of numbers works in business as much as it works in church.

Whoever said when they grow up they will remember those good times, great, that is what we want to take place. I have no problem with that.

However, when you bring in "shredding air molecules", it kind of shreds the argument that it's not sensationalism. :heeheehee

The Bible is the bottom line, sensationalism isn't - ever.

Tell me to shout with the voice of triumph - it's Bible, but when you bring in "shredding air molecules", I'm going to look at you, shake my head and say - WUT?

[n david]

David, That wasn't votivesoul's point. He was concerned about three things - sensationalism, emotionalism and entertainment.
His whole rant was based on God not really speaking to LS and that the miraculous isn't happening, ergo LS is a liar and false prophet.

You are pretty much calling Votivesoul a liar while taking his words out of context.
When Votive claims God didn't really speak to LS, when he claims God isn't doing the miraculous... you betcha, I'm going to call him a liar. And no, I'm not taking his words out of context.

[Pressing-On]

His whole rant was based on God not really speaking to LS and that the miraculous isn't happening, ergo LS is a liar and false prophet.


When Votive claims God didn't really speak to LS, when he claims God isn't doing the miraculous... you betcha, I'm going to call him a liar. And no, I'm not taking his words out of context.

No it wasn't his point. And, yes, you are taking his words out of context, but I will let him defend his own statements. I got his point.

And I don't care what anyone is saying here, and I don't care about the 2 or 3 day experience. The only and whole point is - "Shredding air molecules" does not have and never has had ANYTHING to do with the Word of God, the moving of His Spirit, miracles, healings, raising the dead, etc., etc. - nada!

It is fanciful, emotional, sensationalist tripe.

[n david]

No it wasn't his point. And, yes, you are taking his words out of context, but I will let him defend his own statements. I got his point.

And I don't care what anyone is saying here, and I don't care about the 2 or 3 day experience. The only and whole point is - "Shredding air molecules" does not have and never has had ANYTHING to do with the Word of God, the moving of His Spirit, miracles, healings, raising the dead, etc., etc. - nada!

It is fanciful, emotional, sensationalist tripe.
To use your eloquent emojis

:blah :blah :blah

[n david]

No it wasn't his point. And, yes, you are taking his words out of context, but I will let him defend his own statements. I got his point.
The whole of his post was LS is a liar and though the Bible promises the miraculous, there haven't been any done...of which he knows.

.
Read the post. Obviously you didn't get his point.

[Pressing-On]

To use your eloquent emojis

:blah :blah :blah

I'll just repeat your words:

Can't argue the truth. :lol

:toofunny

[n david]

JA wasn't calling the quote an idiot which needed brain surgery. Nice try. JA recognized his error and apologized. Had it been about the quote, no apology would have been needed.

JA attacking and insulting another minister is not comparable to Paul and Peter.

You can offer excuses, but anyone can go back and view your posts to see your double standard and flip flop here.

No one is under more scrutiny than LS, and rightfully so. Yet unlike JA, whom you refused to call out for his error, you're more than willing to call out and even falsely accuse LS. And LS didn't attack and insult another minister. LS' unpardonable sin was using an example you don't like or agree with.
Bump

[n david]

Let God, and His Word, be true and every man a liar.

If you don't believe God can speak to His people, if you don't believe the miraculous can happen... Let God's Word be true.

It is written.

God's Word is true! The devil is a liar, as is anyone who claims otherwise.

[Pressing-On]

Let God, and His Word, be true and every man a liar.

If you don't believe God can speak to His people, if you don't believe the miraculous can happen... Let God's Word be true.

It is written.

God's Word is true! The devil is a liar, as is anyone who claims otherwise.

Ummm....not the point. :rolleyes2

[n david]

Ummm....not the point. :rolleyes2
Perhaps not your point, but it's definitely Votive's point. Several posts of his have been about this.

Roll your eyes all you want.

[Esaias]

What votivesoul was focusing on is the results and lasting affects that normally accompany these meetings. Call me a skeptic, but from years of observation, we have our kids during the summer and have to fight to reign them in when school starts. Which means, for many of them, there wasn't any depth that grabbed them during the conference. No, we don't like to talk about these things, but it's the truth.

That doesn't mean that it didn't affect some. It's a no-brainer. The average of numbers works in business as much as it works in church.

Whoever said when they grow up they will remember those good times, great, that is what we want to take place. I have no problem with that.



Which means, for many of them, there wasn't any depth that grabbed them during the conference. No, we don't like to talk about these things, but it's the truth.

So then why continue sending the kids to these types of meetings? A form of daycare? Pentecostal baseball camp?

[n david]

Which means, for many of them, there wasn't any depth that grabbed them during the conference. No, we don't like to talk about these things, but it's the truth.
Please keep this in perspective. This was 5 minutes of one service at NAYC, not the whole thing. Also, consider the cynical and jaded source of the post to which you responded. I've read many testimonies of kids who were impacted by the whole conference.

So then why continue sending the kids to these types of meetings? A form of daycare? Pentecostal baseball camp?
Because it's a great place for kids to be impacted and recharged.

[Pressing-On]

Which means, for many of them, there wasn't any depth that grabbed them during the conference. No, we don't like to talk about these things, but it's the truth.

So then why continue sending the kids to these types of meetings? A form of daycare? Pentecostal baseball camp?

Being around people of like faith is always a very good idea, allowing for friendships to be forged. They know who is paying attention and who isn't, who is serious and who isn't. And I think that even in those times when commitments are made, but not especially taken seriously after the lights fade, it is still good to have the memory and to have had the experience.

[Esaias]

Please keep this in perspective. This was 5 minutes of one service at NAYC, not the whole thing. Also, consider the cynical and jaded source of the post to which you responded. I've read many testimonies of kids who were impacted by the whole conference.


Because it's a great place for kids to be impacted and recharged.

I'm not making any judgment calls about the meeting. I don't know anyone who went so have no opinion on its impact or lack thereof. I was just wondering why PO feels there is little to no return on investment, so why continue sending kids there? Why not develop an alternative?

BTW, I watched the clip I posted. LS didn't really hype anyone up, he just rode the wave of what was happening , but that's just my opinion. In fact, I had way more of an issue with the guy who introduced him than with LS' words. THAT guy seemed to be hyping things quite a bit, verging on 'man worship'.

(And no, PO, I am not saying LS didn't say a few beginning words that got people excited and noisy. I am just saying he wasn't just hyping and hyping people up into a frenzy, the crowd seemed like it was already ready to take off before he ever opened his mouth...)

[Pressing-On]

I'm not making any judgment calls about the meeting. I don't know anyone who went so have no opinion on its impact or lack thereof. I was just wondering why PO feels there is little to no return on investment, so why continue sending kids there? Why not develop an alternative?

BTW, I watched the clip I posted. LS didn't really hype anyone up, he just rode the wave of what was happening , but that's just my opinion. In fact, I had way more of an issue with the guy who introduced him than with LS' words. THAT guy seemed to be hyping things quite a bit, verging on 'man worship'.

(And no, PO, I am not saying LS didn't say a few beginning words that got people excited and noisy. I am just saying he wasn't just hyping and hyping people up into a frenzy, the crowd seemed like it was already ready to take off before he ever opened his mouth...)
I don't think I meant there was little and especially no return on the whole experience. I am sure I didn't convey that well at all. I just know that on the aspect of hype, it usually doesn't have a lasting effect. Only that aspect of a meeting has little or no return. There are plenty of other things said that do.

I agree with you and especially your last paragraph. In one of my posts, I stated that after listening to the clip, it appeared the youth knew that if they moved, God would move. I also had the impression they were already there.

I don't have a problem with the conference in general and I don't have a problem with the shout. I have been a willing participant through the years. I have a huge problem with adding unnecessary verbiage to God's Word, i.e., our voices shredding the air. There are some things that are so weird, I just want to pound sand with it. :heeheehee

This air molecule thing should be challenged, just like the magic hair.

[Esaias]

I first heard of LS from a friend of ours who gave us a cassette tape (remember those? lol) of a youth conference or some other youth-oriented message by LS. He was speaking of how if a person fornicates it literally tears off a piece of their soul and joins it to the other's. So if you fornicate, you are joining in with ALL the people that other person ever fornicated with, PLUS all the people all those people ever fornicated with, and so on and so forth. All their demons, too, would get in you if any single one of them people had a demon.

I just thought it was rather weird.

[n david]

I first heard of LS from a friend of ours who gave us a cassette tape (remember those? lol) of a youth conference or some other youth-oriented message by LS. He was speaking of how if a person fornicates it literally tears off a piece of their soul and joins it to the other's. So if you fornicate, you are joining in with ALL the people that other person ever fornicated with, PLUS all the people all those people ever fornicated with, and so on and so forth. All their demons, too, would get in you if any single one of them people had a demon.

I just thought it was rather weird.
I've heard that before, too. Not from LS, it was another minister at a youth camp I attended.

[votivesoul]

For anyone, and I mean ANYONE, to say "God told me" and then, relay whatever it was that God allegedly said, is the modern day equivalent to "Thus saith the LORD" or "The Word of the LORD came unto me, saying...", both of which are introductory statements made by those who, whether righteously or not, intend to act as a mouthpiece or spokesman for God, aka a prophet.

No one has to ever assume the title for themselves. Agabus never called himself a prophet, as far as we can tell, and yet the Scriptures declare him to be one, and guess what, he spoke in the name of the Lord, and said "God said".

We can't run away from this. To speak of God's behalf is either the height of true spirituality and communion with Him, or is the stupidest, most dangerous thing a person can do.

Adding to or taking away from God's words is more than just the Bible. It's the sum total of all that God ever has, ever will, or currently is speaking.

Woe upon woe has been pronounced upon people who have claimed to speak for God and were not doing so. God flat out killed some of them.

To call anyone into question, especially when the testimony of one man is not true, according to THE SON OF GOD, if they say "God told me", is one of the wisest things a person can do.

Does God speak to people?

Yes! I said it. YES HE DOES, YES HE DOES.

That is not in doubt, and it never has been.

Does God perform miracles?

Yes! YES HE DOES, YES HE DOES.

That is not in doubt, and it never has been.

Paul and Silas were God commissioned apostles with signs and wonders following them, especially Paul, and Scripture declares Silas was a prophet. And yet, when they both came to Berea, they didn't take their word for anything regarding what they said about Jesus. And they were called noble.

The men prior to them, from Thessalonica, had a letter written to them to "Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.". Why? Because as Scripture declares about them, they were less "noble" than the Bereans.

Which means what? The Bereans fact checked every thing Paul and Silas said, with the Word.

We dare fact check one of our celeb preachers in Pentecost and we're condemned as liars, unbelievers, and satanist.

Get your head out of the clouds. Jesus warned us to be aware of false prophets. John commanded us to test the spirits. After Simon Peter wrote that they didn't use cunningly devised fables to testify of the power of the Lord Jesus Christ, after he explained that the transfiguration of Christ and the voice from heaven didn't compare to the testimony of Holy Scripture, he went into an immediate warning against false prophets in the church.

This idea that we should just "respect the man of God" and not question, speculate, or try to find the truth about EVERYTHING they claim and say, is antichrist.

If Creflo Dollar had, at some big conference, claimed that God had spoken to him and that if the people would do a certain something, He would deliver them from all financial burden and hardship, then referred to some texts he admitted to not understanding, about tithing, and etc. then instructed the people to empty their wallets onto the altar, then claimed someone pseudo-scientific idea about money, the economy, or whatever, and I called him on it here at AFF, no one would care.

But because I'm dealing with one of our own, to even dare speak up once in contradiction, to dare speak up once to make a claim against the man and what he said, somehow turns me into some dishonorable degenerate.

When men came before the king declaring "The LORD says..." Jeremiah stood up and said "The LORD did not say...".

And look what he got for it.

I do the same thing, and look what I'm getting for it.

Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal, and they went nuts with rage, and started cutting themselves.

I put down claims made by Lee Stoneking, and some are going nuts with rage. I hope you aren't cutting yourself.

I am neither Jeremiah or Elijah. I speak only of the principles behind the issues.

King Asa was a righteous king until his last days, and turned from his righteousness when he became diseased in his feet. Ezekiel warns us that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness, all his previous righteousness will not be remembered.

Whatever Brother Stoneking was or has been, why is he constantly getting duped into believing the weirdest, easily falsifiable ideas about woman's hair, the human voice, and air molecules and etc., and preaching them as facts, no less? Especially if he's a conduit through whom God speaks?

Have we at all any consideration that something isn't right with the man? Simon Peter in his diatribe against false prophets in 2 Peter 2, warned about men who draw people after them through the flesh, for carnal pleasures.

Sensational, emotional, entertaining are all things that lead a person to the flesh. And let's just pull the bandage off and admit it: We Apostolic Pentecostals like our sensational, emotional, entertaining conferences. We judge all things by the amount of tears shed, the amount of snot ran down, the amount of bobbi pins on the floor, how hoarse our voices are, how much our hands hurt from clapping, or our legs and feet hurt from stomping and dancing, and etc.

The sign of good preaching in our movement, is how good the preacher makes us feel.

To all, I urge you in the fear of God, to consider what I say:

The tables of the Lord in our movement are full of vomit.

Detest me for that at your leisure. Ban me for that if you must. Pray holy imprecations upon me, if you like. It doesn't change anything.

[Pressing-On]

I first heard of LS from a friend of ours who gave us a cassette tape (remember those? lol) of a youth conference or some other youth-oriented message by LS. He was speaking of how if a person fornicates it literally tears off a piece of their soul and joins it to the other's. So if you fornicate, you are joining in with ALL the people that other person ever fornicated with, PLUS all the people all those people ever fornicated with, and so on and so forth. All their demons, too, would get in you if any single one of them people had a demon.

I just thought it was rather weird.

Please don't throw wood on the fire. :heeheehee David is going to have a heart attack and I am going to end up bald. It makes me want to pull my hair out. :girlytantrum :toofunny

[n david]

Show your proof that LS is a false prophet then. You continue to claim he's a false prophet, where is your proof?

I've been in services with LS and saw God do things with my own eyes.

Show your proof.

JUST ONE! JUST ONE PROOF THAT LS IS A FALSE PROPHET!

[n david]

If Creflo Dollar had, at some big conference, claimed that God had spoken to him and that if the people would do a certain something, He would deliver them from all financial burden and hardship, then referred to some texts he admitted to not understanding, about tithing, and etc. then instructed the people to empty their wallets onto the altar, then claimed someone pseudo-scientific idea about money, the economy, or whatever, and I called him on it here at AFF, no one would care.
Apples and bowling balls. Good grief.

[Pressing-On]

I first heard of LS from a friend of ours who gave us a cassette tape (remember those? lol) of a youth conference or some other youth-oriented message by LS. He was speaking of how if a person fornicates it literally tears off a piece of their soul and joins it to the other's. So if you fornicate, you are joining in with ALL the people that other person ever fornicated with, PLUS all the people all those people ever fornicated with, and so on and so forth. All their demons, too, would get in you if any single one of them people had a demon.

I just thought it was rather weird.

So, David is saying the tape you listened to is not LS speaking. Can you confirm that either way? LS or no on the tape?

[n david]

Does God speak to people?

Yes! I said it. YES HE DOES, YES HE DOES.

That is not in doubt, and it never has been.

Does God perform miracles?

Yes! YES HE DOES, YES HE DOES.

That is not in doubt, and it never has been.
Oh really? Your posts have done nothing BUT put doubt on those things.

You claim to know that God did not, in fact, speak to LS. Apparently, God told you such...or you're omniscient.

And you've claimed the miraculous doesn't happen, except by a select group of men. You've gone on to mock and ask where the miracles are happening since NAYC.

So, yeah, you've done nothing but post doubt and skepticism.

[Esaias]

Show your proof that LS is a false prophet then. You continue to claim he's a false prophet, where is your proof?

I've been in services with LS and saw God do things with my own eyes.

Show your proof.

JUST ONE! JUST ONE PROOF THAT LS IS A FALSE PROPHET!

I think he is saying a prophet of God (or anyone who is talked to by God on an apparently regular basis) would certainly be told by God that hair has no power itself and that the human voice does not shred air molecules. Therefore, the question he is asking is 'If God is speaking to him, why isn't God telling him to correct these verifiably false ideas and statements?'

Kind of like asking 'if those charismatic trinitarians are really hearing from God in their meetings, how come God ain't telling them who Jesus is and to get baptised the Bible way?'

That's what I am getting from Votive's posts on this. I don't think he is declaring LS is a false prophet, I think he is rather asking, that is, 'TRYING THOSE' who are claimed to be hearing from God, whether it be so or not. At least that is how I am seeing it.

[n david]

So, David is saying the tape you listened to is not LS speaking. Can you confirm that either way? LS or no on the tape?
That is NOT what I said. Look back at my post and quote where I said anything like what you just claimed I said. Good grief. Reading comprehension much?


I've heard that before, too. Not from LS, it was another minister at a youth camp I attended.
I was in attendance at a youth camp where the day speaker said the same thing. He also claimed the DNA of every person we kiss remains in our mouths the rest of our lives.

[Esaias]

So, David is saying the tape you listened to is not LS speaking. Can you confirm that either way? LS or no on the tape?

What? Where is David's claim on that? I don;t think he even mentioned it???

But yes, it was most assuredly Lee Stoneking on the tape I listened to. Can't forget that 'manner of speaking' he has. Plus the person who gave my wife and I the tape was all about 'check this out, this is Lee Stoneking, he's awesome!'

I didn't listen to the whole thing, I just remember that little bit and I also remember thinking 'what's up with that accent? Is he being over dramatic or something?' lol

[Pressing-On]

Whatever Brother Stoneking was or has been, why is he constantly getting duped into believing the weirdest, easily falsifiable ideas about woman's hair, the human voice, and air molecules and etc., and preaching them as facts, no less? Especially if he's a conduit through whom God speaks?

Aside from everything else you wrote, this is what I would like to know. Why?

[n david]

What? Where is David's claim on that? I don't think he even mentioned it???
I didn't. She's lying. Anyone with a first grade reading level can read my post and understand what I wrote.

[n david]

I think he is saying a prophet of God (or anyone who is talked to by God on an apparently regular basis) would certainly be told by God that hair has no power itself and that the human voice does not shred air molecules. Therefore, the question he is asking is 'If God is speaking to him, why isn't God telling him to correct these verifiably false ideas and statements?'

Kind of like asking 'if those charismatic trinitarians are really hearing from God in their meetings, how come God ain't telling them who Jesus is and to get baptised the Bible way?'

That's what I am getting from Votive's posts on this. I don't think he is declaring LS is a false prophet, I think he is rather asking, that is, 'TRYING THOSE' who are claimed to be hearing from God, whether it be so or not. At least that is how I am seeing it.
I understand. And if LS said God told him about decibel levels or sound waves displacing molecules, I would question it just as I did his doctrine of HMH.

But he didn't do that.

All LS said God told him was that if people would shout, God would deliver them.

For anyone to claim God didn't really say that to LS is incredibly arrogant and wrong. They don't know, nor do they have any proof of their accusation.

[Esaias]

I've heard that before, too. Not from LS, it was another minister at a youth camp I attended.

Wow, for some reason I never saw this post! lol

Maybe the youth minister heard it from LS?

I can actually see an exegesis on this one, though.... being joined to the Lord is one spirit, man and woman become one flesh... it's not too far of a leap to go to the idea that if you fornicate with one person you fornicate with all their previous partners, and all THEIR previous partners, etc etc.

In fact, I think I remember hearing back in high school a health teacher or something saying basically the same thing, in relation to STDs... if you have sex with a person you are in effect having sex with every partner they've ever had plus all THEIR partners etc etc... because if just one of them introduce an STD into the ring YOU can wind up with it... or something like that.

Of course, the health teacher didn't say anything about pieces of human soul being stuck to yours, along with hundreds of other pieces of human souls.... lol

[Esaias]

I understand. And if LS said God told him about decibel levels or sound waves displacing molecules, I would question it just as I did his doctrine of HMH.

But he didn't do that.

All LS said God told him was that if people would shout, God would deliver them.

For anyone to claim God didn't really say that to LS is incredibly arrogant and wrong. They don't know, nor do they have any proof of their accusation.

I just want to know how to get over that accent of his. He just don't SOUND Pentecostal...

:happydance

[Pressing-On]

I was in attendance at a youth camp where the day speaker said the same thing. He also claimed the DNA of every person we kiss remains in our mouths the rest of our lives.
Okay. You've thrown your body over him throughout this discussion, so I thought you were saying that it was some other minister and not LS. :heeheehee

What? Where is David's claim on that? I don;t think he even mentioned it???
Right, as you can see, he explained my misconception.

But yes, it was most assuredly Lee Stoneking on the tape I listened to. Can't forget that 'manner of speaking' he has. Plus the person who gave my wife and I the tape was all about 'check this out, this is Lee Stoneking, he's awesome!'

I didn't listen to the whole thing, I just remember that little bit and I also remember thinking 'what's up with that accent? Is he being over dramatic or something?' lol

LOL! Oh my goodness. What else is going to be shared? And you should see how people turn red and blistery, like David, if you question some of these things. :heeheehee

[Pressing-On]

Wow, for some reason I never saw this post! lol

Maybe the youth minister heard it from LS?

I can actually see an exegesis on this one, though.... being joined to the Lord is one spirit, man and woman become one flesh... it's not too far of a leap to go to the idea that if you fornicate with one person you fornicate with all their previous partners, and all THEIR previous partners, etc etc.
And if you get really loud during the process, your voice will shred air molecules. :heeheehee

In fact, I think I remember hearing back in high school a health teacher or something saying basically the same thing, in relation to STDs... if you have sex with a person you are in effect having sex with every partner they've ever had plus all THEIR partners etc etc... because if just one of them introduce an STD into the ring YOU can wind up with it... or something like that.

Of course, the health teacher didn't say anything about pieces of human soul being stuck to yours, along with hundreds of other pieces of human souls.... lol

Well, you could be doing that mentally.

[n david]

Maybe the youth minister heard it from LS?
Maybe, I don't know. I do know nothing new is under the sun. I've heard many messages or examples given by more than one minister.

Just the other day, I was discussing a message preached at BOTT and my friend said he heard the same exact message from a different, well known UPC minister and HQ official.

[Pressing-On]

I think he is saying a prophet of God (or anyone who is talked to by God on an apparently regular basis) would certainly be told by God that hair has no power itself and that the human voice does not shred air molecules. Therefore, the question he is asking is 'If God is speaking to him, why isn't God telling him to correct these verifiably false ideas and statements?'

Kind of like asking 'if those charismatic trinitarians are really hearing from God in their meetings, how come God ain't telling them who Jesus is and to get baptised the Bible way?'

That's what I am getting from Votive's posts on this. I don't think he is declaring LS is a false prophet, I think he is rather asking, that is, 'TRYING THOSE' who are claimed to be hearing from God, whether it be so or not. At least that is how I am seeing it.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[n david]

I've heard that before, too. Not from LS, it was another minister at a youth camp I attended.

So, David is saying the tape you listened to is not LS speaking. Can you confirm that either way? LS or no on the tape?
How in the world you get this from my quote above... Either you didn't read the post, or your bias has blinded you.

Right, as you can see, he explained my misconception.
Pretty bad misconception. Puts the rest of your criticism of LS into perspective.

[Pressing-On]

How in the world you get this from my quote above... Either you didn't read the post, or your bias has blinded you.

Pretty bad misconception. Puts the rest of your criticism of LS into perspective.

Yea, because our voices shredding the air and laying our hair on stuff is so credible. :heeheehee

[n david]

Yea, because our voices shredding the air and laying our hair on stuff is so credible. :heeheehee
No one is talking about HMH except you. You should try letting that go. It's been years since he last was preaching that, and he's been publicly reprimanded and crucified over it enough.

Should people hold JA's attack on SG against him forever as you are LS and his HMH?

Get over it. Stop being so bitter about it.

[Pressing-On]

No one is talking about HMH except you. You should try letting that go. It's been years since he last was preaching that, and he's been publicly reprimanded and crucified over it enough.

Should people hold JA's attack on SG against him forever as you are LS and his HMH?

Get over it. Stop being so bitter about it.

It is still a lasting teaching (I know people who still teach this) AND is among the list of his other strange doctrinal views he brings to the pulpit.

[CC1]

Lee Stoneking is an eccentric man who has devoted his entire life to following Jesus. He is also deeply spiritual in the sense that he is constantly looking for the working of God here on earth. This almost monk-like existence and his eccentricity result in some very strange beliefs that he shares from the pulpit. It does not mean he is a bad person who is trying to lead anyone astray. If you have half a brain you can see separate the wheat from the chaff in his sermons. Despite his eccentricity, his life bears the Fruit of the Spirit and he does amazing things for God.

There are many here who are extremely quick to stick a knife in the back of any preacher who doesn't precisely line up with their idea of what a man of God should be. I have never met a single preacher, prophet, teacher, evangelist who didn't have at least some flaws, and I've heard every single preacher say something from across the pulpit that wasn't quite right. Most of the time it is urban legends they are passing on from Facebook, sometimes they are incorrectly interpreting the scripture, and other times they are sharing some Biblically unsound personal belief, such as HMH. There are no perfect ministers. A minister is no different than any other believer, they just have a different job. Look at your own unwashed sepulchers and stop criticizing so much. If the minister is bearing fruit and correctly teaching fundamental doctrines, cut them some slack and separate the wheat from the chaff. If you think you have actually found a preacher who never says anything incorrect from across the pulpit, maybe you should get your ears checked.

I think it is sad you make excuses for men of God who repeatedly do the things you list. We are not talking about misspeaking once or twice but a way of life and style of preaching in the men who do the things you listed.

Of courses no man is perfect and all preachers will make mistakes but it is the same as looking at sin. There are willful repeat sinners and then there are those who are trying their best do do right and not sin but because of their human nature sometimes they fall short despite their best efforts. These preachers aren't making the occasional mistake but embrace the errors and repeat them over and over.

Whether they are doing it to intentionally mislead people or out of intellectual or spiritual sloppiness doesn't matter. There is no excuse.

[CC1]

No one is talking about HMH except you. You should try letting that go. It's been years since he last was preaching that, and he's been publicly reprimanded and crucified over it enough.

Should people hold JA's attack on SG against him forever as you are LS and his HMH?

Get over it. Stop being so bitter about it.

I was unaware that anybody within the UPC has ever remprimanded LS for HMH. From what I can tell it was almost universally embraced. Not only from him but his student Ruth Harvey who has been the guest speaker at almost every districts womens meeting at one time or another.

Who reprimanded him and when?

[n david]

It is still a lasting teaching (I know people who still teach this) AND is among the list of his other strange doctrinal views he brings to the pulpit.
So what you're saying is any time LS is mentioned, you will bitterly bring up HMH, and, by extension, any time JA is mentioned, his attack on SG should be brought into remembrance from now til eternity.

As I posted previously... just get over it. You're better than that. Only a bitter person holds onto something like this.

[n david]

I was unaware that anybody within the UPC has ever remprimanded LS for HMH. From what I can tell it was almost universally embraced. Not only from him but his student Ruth Harvey who has been the guest speaker at almost every districts womens meeting at one time or another.

Who reprimanded him and when?
Daniel Seagraves wrote an article in the Herald about it, publicly admonishing the belief. He didn't name LS, but it was clearly written about LS and his HMH belief.

I haven't heard of Harvey for years either. Could be mistaken, since I don't pay a lot of attention to women's meetings.

[Evang.Benincasa]

That's interesting. In your previous post you have a zillion Smilies to indicate, along with David, that you agree, anyone who thinks LS needs a talking to is an "unwashed sepulcher".

I must of missed that part?


I get that God can use us, even when we are wrong about some things. We could use Peter and Paul as an example. Peter needed a better understanding between the Old Covenant and the New. Paul provides that and they move along.

Yep, and Paul had to put him on blast, but still Peter was around long enough to write 2 Peter 3:15-16.


Pendragon agrees that LS shares some very strange beliefs from the pulpit, but that is a-okay - let it stand.

I can't wrap my brain around that.

I agree with Houston. I would want someone to correct me. :thumbsup

Same here, I can't justify me missing the "unwashed sepulchre" comment. But I did feel Pendragon was saying the the same thing I said in a previous post. Just missed the part that if anyone wanted to expound the word of the Lord more perfectly to Brother Stonking then they are a lost potato.


And I am thinking, being LS is a grown man, that might be a-okay to do that.

Amen, but he does have his own sphere of influence, and there are a huge group of men who he trusts and they trust him. I'm on a forum with you, while you and I go back and forth over Brother Stonking, and Ted Cruz, Brother Stoneking doesn't miss a beat. You pray that those who are his influential elders take him on the side an point him the way to the woodshed. That's all we can do about it, but after that is all said and done, have faith that Brother Stoneking loves God, and the Apostolic message, so when the student is ready, the teacher will come.


After all, Daniel Segraves thought it was necessary on the "magic hair" issue. So, if LS keeps steamrolling the "strange beliefs from the pulpit", it might be necessary to shuck the unfounded and accusatory accusation on the "unwashed sepulcher".

Perhaps Pendragon, you and David, believe that Daniel Segraves is an "unwashed sepulcher"?

No, because I would have to be as unwashed a sepulcher as DS.
Everyone who knows me (especially my daughter who happens to like LS) that my reviews are hard. Yet, I must allow Jesus to take care of His servant. Because down here with the rest of you little people, there ain't a whole lot for us to do but add pages to this thread. :)

Another thing, the doctrine of "Superpowered Hair" is pretty prevalent down here in South Florida. I never believed it, but there is a whole lot of individuals who do. So, if you tell them that it was false doctrine they would just turn to you and say, "what yu talkin bout Willis?" Going through a Bible study with them on that particular subject takes a bit of finesse, and care, so you don't loose the patient. ;)

[Pressing-On]

I was unaware that anybody within the UPC has ever remprimanded LS for HMH. From what I can tell it was almost universally embraced. Not only from him but his student Ruth Harvey who has been the guest speaker at almost every districts womens meeting at one time or another.

Who reprimanded him and when?

You can add singer KH to that list of people teaching the HMH. I attended a ladies meeting where she talked about having just left a meeting with LS and proceeded to speak on our power in the hair. David thinks this is a done deal, it isn't.

And David is speaking of an article in the Herald by Segraves, A Plea for Caution, which hardly any one reads. It is probably listed in the archives here.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Daniel Seagraves wrote an article in the Herald about it, publicly admonishing the belief. He didn't name LS, but it was clearly written about LS and his HMH belief.

I haven't heard of Harvey for years either. Could be mistaken, since I don't pay a lot of attention to women's meetings.

Sister Golden Hair surprise is still alive and well. :heeheehee

There are many who still hold to that teaching.

[Sweet Pea]

No one is talking about HMH except you. You should try letting that go. It's been years since he last was preaching that, and he's been publicly reprimanded and crucified over it enough.

Should people hold JA's attack on SG against him forever as you are LS and his HMH?

Get over it. Stop being so bitter about it.

Daniel Seagraves wrote an article in the Herald about it, publicly admonishing the belief. He didn't name LS, but it was clearly written about LS and his HMH belief.

I haven't heard of Harvey for years either. Could be mistaken, since I don't pay a lot of attention to women's meetings.


You are wrong on the above red bolded. I know for a fact that he continues to preach about the power that women have due to uncut hair. He also has propagated this message so far and so wide that it continues to be promoted widely among the UPC. I also know for a fact that he has preached it since Daniel Segraves' article in the Herald.

[Pressing-On]

I must of missed that part?



Yep, and Paul had to put him on blast, but still Peter was around long enough to write 2 Peter 3:15-16.



Same here, I can't justify me missing the "unwashed sepulchre" comment. But I did feel Pendragon was saying the the same thing I said in a previous post. Just missed the part that if anyone wanted to expound the word of the Lord more perfectly to Brother Stonking then they are a lost potato.



Amen, but he does have his own sphere of influence, and there are a huge group of men who he trusts and they trust him. I'm on a forum with you, while you and I go back and forth over Brother Stonking, and Ted Cruz, Brother Stoneking doesn't miss a beat. You pray that those who are his influential elders take him on the side an point him the way to the woodshed. That's all we can do about it, but after that is all said and done, have faith that Brother Stoneking loves God, and the Apostolic message, so when the student is ready, the teacher will come.



No, because I would have to be as unwashed a sepulcher as DS.
Everyone who knows me (especially my daughter who happens to like LS) that my reviews are hard. Yet, I must allow Jesus to take care of His servant. Because down here with the rest of you little people, there ain't a whole lot for us to do but add pages to this thread. :)

Another thing, the doctrine of "Superpowered Hair" is pretty prevalent down here in South Florida. I never believed it, but there is a whole lot of individuals who do. So, if you tell them that it was false doctrine they would just turn to you and say, "what yu talkin bout Willis?" Going through a Bible study with them on that particular subject takes a bit of finesse, and care, so you don't loose the patient. ;)
Lol! You are right about there ain't a whole lot for us to do but add pages to this thread.

[Pressing-On]

You are wrong on the above red bolded. I know for a fact that he continues to preach about the power that women have due to uncut hair. He also has propagated this message so far and so wide that it continues to be promoted widely among the UPC. I also know for a fact that he has preached it since Daniel Segraves' article in the Herald.

:thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

Sister Golden Hair surprise is still alive and well. :heeheehee

There are many who still hold to that teaching.

:toofunny :toofunny

[Evang.Benincasa]

You can add singer KH to that list of people teaching the HMH. I attended a ladies meeting where she talked about having just left a meeting with LS and proceeded to speak on our power in the hair. David thinks this is a done deal, it isn't.

And David is speaking of an article in the Herald by Segraves, A Plea for Caution, which hardly any one reads. It is probably listed in the archives here.

I had a preacher and wife (I will never divulge) go into shock (I was sitting in the back of their car) when I said a woman's uncut long hair doesn't have power to command angels. They both almost broke their necks to look at me in the back seat. Needless to say that was the longest I ever spent talking about 1st Corinthians 11 over cold turnip greens in a Cracker Barrell. :)

[n david]

You can add singer KH to that list of people teaching the HMH. I attended a ladies meeting where she talked about having just left a meeting with LS and proceeded to speak on our power in the hair. David thinks this is a done deal, it isn't.
How long ago was this meeting you attended? Also, I never said the belief has died. Don't try and claim something else I didn't really say. What I first asked is when the last time it was anyone heard LS talk about HMH. I also stated I've heard dozens of his messages from the past year to two years and haven't heard him mention it. I did NOT say or imply the belief is dead.

And David is speaking of an article in the Herald by Segraves, A Plea for Caution, which hardly any one reads. It is probably listed in the archives here.
With what would your bitterness and intense dislike for LS be satisfied? Would you let it go were LS to be publicly attacked and insulted a la JA/SG? Would LS standing in front of general conference, weeping and asking forgiveness satisfy your blood thirst?

[Pressing-On]

I had a preacher and wife (I will never divulge) go into shock (I was sitting in the back of their car) when I said a woman's uncut long hair doesn't have power to command angels. They both almost broke their necks to look at me in the back seat. Needless to say that was the longest I ever spent talking about 1st Corinthians 11 over cold turnip greens in a Cracker Barrell. :)

Would have loved to be a fly on the roof. :heeheehee You should see how hateful women can be when you don't buy into the nonsense. In searching for God's power, people desire to find magical things, sadly.

[n david]

You are wrong on the above red bolded. I know for a fact that he continues to preach about the power that women have due to uncut hair. He also has propagated this message so far and so wide that it continues to be promoted widely among the UPC. I also know for a fact that he has preached it since Daniel Segraves' article in the Herald.
When was the last you heard him preach this?

[Pressing-On]

How long ago was this meeting you attended? Also, I never said the belief has died. Don't try and claim something else I didn't really say. What I first asked is when the last time it was anyone heard LS talk about HMH. I also stated I've heard dozens of his messages from the past year to two years and haven't heard him mention it. I did NOT say or imply the belief is dead.


With what would your bitterness and intense dislike for LS be satisfied? Would you let it go were LS to be publicly attacked and insulted a la JA/SG? Would LS standing in front of general conference, weeping and asking forgiveness satisfy your blood thirst?

I haven't attended a service with him as speaker since, around, 1990. I can only not divulge the people I know that teach this.

[n david]

I haven't attended a service with him as speaker since, around, 1990. I can only not divulge the people I know that teach this.Sorry, meant the meeting with KH.

[Pressing-On]

Sorry, meant the meeting with KH.

I don't remember. A couple of years ago, maybe.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Would have loved to be a fly on the roof. :heeheehee You should see how hateful women can be when you don't buy into the nonsense. In searching for God's power, people desire to find magical things, sadly.

I didn't get to really touch my food, and I sure love greens, and I had a plate of catfish. Yet, they were very concerned about why I didn't believe in the power of the hair to command angels. Again, when we started the discussion the dining room was full, we stayed until the waitresses and waiters kept clearing their throats to get our attention, because they were closing. Everything went well, we had a good discussion, the table behind us wanted to know how they could get more information on what we were talking about, and I went back to my hotel room hungry.

[Pressing-On]

I didn't get to really touch my food, and I sure love greens, and I had a plate of catfish. Yet, they were very concerned about why I didn't believe in the power of the hair to command angels. Again, when we started the discussion the dining room was full, we stayed until the waitresses and waiters kept clearing their throats to get our attention, because they were closing. Everything went well, we had a good discussion, the table behind us wanted to know how they could get more information on what we were talking about, and I went back to my hotel room hungry.

I have always wondered, if her hair can command angels, what is her husband's role?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I have always wondered, if her hair can command angels, what is her husband's role?

He got the check at the end of the night. :)

[Pressing-On]

He got the check at the end of the night. :)

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Don't they all?! Hahahahahahahahaha!

[Esaias]

I didn't get to really touch my food, and I sure love greens, and I had a plate of catfish. Yet, they were very concerned about why I didn't believe in the power of the hair to command angels. Again, when we started the discussion the dining room was full, we stayed until the waitresses and waiters kept clearing their throats to get our attention, because they were closing. Everything went well, we had a good discussion, the table behind us wanted to know how they could get more information on what we were talking about, and I went back to my hotel room hungry.

When I had dinner with brother Strange and his gracious wife, during the meal she asked me about my position regarding head coverings. Neither of us held back our hearts, and yet by the grace of God I got to finish that plate of baked chicken, rice, okra, tomatoes, and even had seconds I believe. She knows how to cook Southern, naturally due to her being a true Southern lady and all. Afterwards we all went to their big porch (I must repent, I feel some envy coming on) and had a nice time enjoying the Piney Woods on a warm and peaceful Texas afternoon.

:icecream

[Evang.Benincasa]

When I had dinner with brother Strange and his gracious wife, during the meal she asked me about my position regarding head coverings. Neither of us held back our hearts, and yet by the grace of God I got to finish that plate of baked chicken, rice, okra, tomatoes, and even had seconds I believe. She knows how to cook Southern, naturally due to her being a true Southern lady and all. Afterwards we all went to their big porch (I must repent, I feel some envy coming on) and had a nice time enjoying the Piney Woods on a warm and peaceful Texas afternoon.

:icecream

I was just fortunate that they parked the car, and we made it pass the rocking chairs. We laughed while we waited to be seated, then ordered our meals. Once, my food was placed in front of me then began the debate, it was pleasant, with only two snags, but I was able to bring them back from the brink. The table behind us (after their meal was done :foottap) turned around and ask us where they can get information on what we were discussing. I thought at that moment I could shove a fork in my mouth, but no such luck. The preacher's wife's kung fu was very good, and she slid a torrent of questions in at me, as her husband was handing the group at the table behind us my information. I laid my fork in the plate sat back in the chair, then with a noded smile at the group I started to answer the questions again. All, and all it turned out really well. Only my stomach grumbled on the way back to the hotel room. I'm glad you got to finish your meal. :nod

[Pendragon]

Re: my 'unwashed sepulcher' comment - I want to clarify that particular statement, which wasn't even accurately presented (sorry). The text I referenced is 'whitewashed sepulcher'; 'unwashed sepulcher' doesn't even make sense as this is an analogy to a grave that is clean on the outside but full of decay on the inside. I think most of you got the reference I was making though.

I shouldn't have left that at a single line and called it good. The point I was attempting to convey is that those engaging in disparagement of LS need to examine their own hearts first. For those of you who merely disagree with some of his teachings (without disparaging remarks), I didn't intend to direct the 'whitewashed sepulcher' comment toward you.

To those who ask 'why doesn't God tell him he's wrong about [fill in the blank]', I would point out that God uses willing vessels. The key is God uses existing vessels; he doesn't craft The Perfect Vessel and send it to your home town to be your minister, or to Hazelwood, MO. I don't know any better way to put it than that God uses People. He uses human beings, exactly like you or I. We are all a work in progress, and being filled with the Spirt and ordained doesn't automatically bump up our IQ, research skills, or enhance our B.S. detectors when reading urban legends on Facebook. Furthermore, comparing our brothers and sisters to the examples we have in the apostles who wrote the inspired scriptures is an unfair comparison. How about comparing your own self to the Apostles, eh?

However, I can think of a couple of examples of odd or flawed behavior and beliefs from Apostles. The first is Peter, prior to his vision of the sheet filled with unclean animals. Was he unworthy of his position in the church prior to his correction from God regarding unclean meat? In his unenlightened, 'flawed' state prior to this revelation, would he be a valid target for derisive messageboard comments regarding his legitimacy as a minister of the Gospel? The second example is Paul. In Acts 18, Paul takes what appears to be a Nazirite vow. This is in direct juxtaposition to the Holy Magic Hair argument much debated on this forum, so I'm sure there are many Hair Experts who are fully qualified to take up the crusade against Paul for his silly little Old Testament vow. How does Paul's personal use of the Nazirite vow affect his status as a minister of the Gospel? If you heard Lee Stoneking had taken up an Old Testament vow, would you consider this to be further ammunition to be used against him?

How do we know someone is a true believer? By their fruits you will know them. Everything I know of Brother Stoneking (and I have heard him preach many times and also spent personal time with him) lets me know he is a disciple of Jesus. I have no doubts about it. On the other hand, I have heard him say some silly things that he read on the Internet, and a quick Google search from my pew caused me to sigh - but I still listened to his message and got much out of it, and saw many others praying in the altar afterwards and receiving the Holy Spirit. God uses flawed people. We all have flaws and even strange beliefs. If you have a problem with his flaws and beliefs, fine, but it is extraordinarily unwise to disparage his character and heap disdainful words upon him.

[Esaias]

Paul wasn't corrected about his diet.

[Esaias]

Anyway, I did some searching. The oldest uto0b video I could find of LS was a BOTT video from 1988.

When did he show up on the scene? Anyone know his history in the UPC?

[votivesoul]

He was a student at ABI in the '60's.

http://www.leestoneking.com/biography.htm

[votivesoul]

Anyway, I did some searching. The oldest uto0b video I could find of LS was a BOTT video from 1988.

When did he show up on the scene? Anyone know his history in the UPC?

Also try http://www.apostoliclive.com.

[CC1]

You can add singer KH to that list of people teaching the HMH. I attended a ladies meeting where she talked about having just left a meeting with LS and proceeded to speak on our power in the hair. David thinks this is a done deal, it isn't.

And David is speaking of an article in the Herald by Segraves, A Plea for Caution, which hardly any one reads. It is probably listed in the archives here.

That kind of surprises me about KH. I don't know her well but I do know her. She has so much interaction and contact outside of the UPC (I first met her years ago when she visited Christ Church during some musical event).

[n david]

Re: my 'unwashed sepulcher' comment - I want to clarify that particular statement, which wasn't even accurately presented (sorry). The text I referenced is 'whitewashed sepulcher'; 'unwashed sepulcher' doesn't even make sense as this is an analogy to a grave that is clean on the outside but full of decay on the inside. I think most of you got the reference I was making though.

I shouldn't have left that at a single line and called it good. The point I was attempting to convey is that those engaging in disparagement of LS need to examine their own hearts first. For those of you who merely disagree with some of his teachings (without disparaging remarks), I didn't intend to direct the 'whitewashed sepulcher' comment toward you.

To those who ask 'why doesn't God tell him he's wrong about [fill in the blank]', I would point out that God uses willing vessels. The key is God uses existing vessels; he doesn't craft The Perfect Vessel and send it to your home town to be your minister, or to Hazelwood, MO. I don't know any better way to put it than that God uses People. He uses human beings, exactly like you or I. We are all a work in progress, and being filled with the Spirt and ordained doesn't automatically bump up our IQ, research skills, or enhance our B.S. detectors when reading urban legends on Facebook. Furthermore, comparing our brothers and sisters to the examples we have in the apostles who wrote the inspired scriptures is an unfair comparison. How about comparing your own self to the Apostles, eh?

However, I can think of a couple of examples of odd or flawed behavior and beliefs from Apostles. The first is Peter, prior to his vision of the sheet filled with unclean animals. Was he unworthy of his position in the church prior to his correction from God regarding unclean meat? In his unenlightened, 'flawed' state prior to this revelation, would he be a valid target for derisive messageboard comments regarding his legitimacy as a minister of the Gospel? The second example is Paul. In Acts 18, Paul takes what appears to be a Nazirite vow. This is in direct juxtaposition to the Holy Magic Hair argument much debated on this forum, so I'm sure there are many Hair Experts who are fully qualified to take up the crusade against Paul for his silly little Old Testament vow. How does Paul's personal use of the Nazirite vow affect his status as a minister of the Gospel? If you heard Lee Stoneking had taken up an Old Testament vow, would you consider this to be further ammunition to be used against him?

How do we know someone is a true believer? By their fruits you will know them. Everything I know of Brother Stoneking (and I have heard him preach many times and also spent personal time with him) lets me know he is a disciple of Jesus. I have no doubts about it. On the other hand, I have heard him say some silly things that he read on the Internet, and a quick Google search from my pew caused me to sigh - but I still listened to his message and got much out of it, and saw many others praying in the altar afterwards and receiving the Holy Spirit. God uses flawed people. We all have flaws and even strange beliefs. If you have a problem with his flaws and beliefs, fine, but it is extraordinarily unwise to disparage his character and heap disdainful words upon him.
Great post. :thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

That kind of surprises me about KH. I don't know her well but I do know her. She has so much interaction and contact outside of the UPC (I first met her years ago when she visited Christ Church during some musical event).

She was speaking at a ladies meeting and I was surprised myself. I did have an amazing experience when I left the meeting that night. I was staying at a family member's house, while in town, and as I was driving away the presence of God was so strong in my vehicle. He showed me the two parts of I Cor 11. The first part regarding man and woman, directing me to Genesis where they were created and He called it good. He then showed me the second part - gender distinction regarding the hair. There is nothing magical about it. It is simply God, man, woman and our respective places in the grand scheme of things here on earth. Everything we are and everything we do should point UP - our focus on Jesus Christ alone - not our hair or our voices.

[Pressing-On]

Re: my 'unwashed sepulcher' comment - I want to clarify that particular statement, which wasn't even accurately presented (sorry). The text I referenced is 'whitewashed sepulcher'; 'unwashed sepulcher' doesn't even make sense as this is an analogy to a grave that is clean on the outside but full of decay on the inside. I think most of you got the reference I was making though.

I shouldn't have left that at a single line and called it good. The point I was attempting to convey is that those engaging in disparagement of LS need to examine their own hearts first. For those of you who merely disagree with some of his teachings (without disparaging remarks), I didn't intend to direct the 'whitewashed sepulcher' comment toward you.

To those who ask 'why doesn't God tell him he's wrong about [fill in the blank]', I would point out that God uses willing vessels. The key is God uses existing vessels; he doesn't craft The Perfect Vessel and send it to your home town to be your minister, or to Hazelwood, MO. I don't know any better way to put it than that God uses People. He uses human beings, exactly like you or I. We are all a work in progress, and being filled with the Spirt and ordained doesn't automatically bump up our IQ, research skills, or enhance our B.S. detectors when reading urban legends on Facebook. Furthermore, comparing our brothers and sisters to the examples we have in the apostles who wrote the inspired scriptures is an unfair comparison. How about comparing your own self to the Apostles, eh?

However, I can think of a couple of examples of odd or flawed behavior and beliefs from Apostles. The first is Peter, prior to his vision of the sheet filled with unclean animals. Was he unworthy of his position in the church prior to his correction from God regarding unclean meat? In his unenlightened, 'flawed' state prior to this revelation, would he be a valid target for derisive messageboard comments regarding his legitimacy as a minister of the Gospel? The second example is Paul. In Acts 18, Paul takes what appears to be a Nazirite vow. This is in direct juxtaposition to the Holy Magic Hair argument much debated on this forum, so I'm sure there are many Hair Experts who are fully qualified to take up the crusade against Paul for his silly little Old Testament vow. How does Paul's personal use of the Nazirite vow affect his status as a minister of the Gospel? If you heard Lee Stoneking had taken up an Old Testament vow, would you consider this to be further ammunition to be used against him?

How do we know someone is a true believer? By their fruits you will know them. Everything I know of Brother Stoneking (and I have heard him preach many times and also spent personal time with him) lets me know he is a disciple of Jesus. I have no doubts about it. On the other hand, I have heard him say some silly things that he read on the Internet, and a quick Google search from my pew caused me to sigh - but I still listened to his message and got much out of it, and saw many others praying in the altar afterwards and receiving the Holy Spirit. God uses flawed people. We all have flaws and even strange beliefs. If you have a problem with his flaws and beliefs, fine, but it is extraordinarily unwise to disparage his character and heap disdainful words upon him.

Okie Dokie. We are doing it on a forum and you were doing it at church. I see we have all come to the same conclusion. :heeheehee

[Sarah]

Bro Benincasa, I would like your opinion on 1 Cor 11:10...after Paul had been talking to the Corinthians about authority and hair, he said this...'for this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels'. What does this mean to you? Forget about the holy magic hair junk...a phrase I believe was coined right here on this message board.

[Pressing-On]

Bro Benincasa, I would like your opinion on 1 Cor 11:10...after Paul had been talking to the Corinthians about authority and hair, he said this...'for this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels'. What does this mean to you? Forget about the holy magic hair junk...a phrase I believe was coined right here on this message board.

I would begin with the grammatical part of I Cor 11:10 - "For this cause..." The "cause" refers to the previous verses.

11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

[Esaias]

It means she ought to wear a head covering.