Shouting at NAYC

[amh]

http://stuffapostolicslike.blogspot.com/2015/08/286-stoneking-hypothesis-sound-vs-air.html

I actually do not understand what this guy's problem is and I have been a fan of his blog for quite some time.

I would like to know where Stoneking got his sources though.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I am thinking the writer of this blog despises most if not all things related to 21st century Apostolic church.

I could be wrong.

If he has been around the Apostolics at all, he should know that prayer, praise and worship are some of the few things that makes being Apostolic even tolerable.

[amh]

Well, you're not wrong. The other new post about NAYC was even more upsetting. Read it too if you get the time.

I do want to know if shouting scientifically shreds the air,

[Evang.Benincasa]

I am thinking the writer of this blog despises most if not all things related to 21st century Apostolic church.

I could be wrong.

If he has been around the Apostolics at all, he should know that prayer, praise and worship are some of the few things that makes being Apostolic even tolerable.

For real?

Why are you posting here if Apostolics are so miserable?

Good...grief. :lol

[CC1]

I listened live to Stoneking talk the shredding air nonsense. I am amazed that people revere him and the nutty stuff he espouses. I guess people never change throughout the ages and are attracted to the wild and crazy stuff no matter how far removed from reality it is.

[houston]

I am thinking the writer of this blog despises most if not all things related to 21st century Apostolic church.

I could be wrong.



You are wrong.

[TJJJ]

You are wrong.

Bwahahahahaha

Short, sweet and to the point!

[houston]

Bwahahahahaha

Short, sweet and to the point!

:happydance

[Pressing-On]

I listened live to Stoneking talk the shredding air nonsense. I am amazed that people revere him and the nutty stuff he espouses. I guess people never change throughout the ages and are attracted to the wild and crazy stuff no matter how far removed from reality it is.

Do people not even realize that if it is OUR voice shredding the air to combat the prince of the power of the air, it's not God's Spirit doing the work, it's our own humanity. Hello!

Someone shared the message with me and said that they "tear up" every time they listen to it. I was thinking, "Please, could you find a bridge and jump off so that I don't have to ever hear you talk about this again?" J/K!!!! :heeheehee

I haven't heard the message, but the decibel thing made it certain I wouldn't.

[n david]

If y'all don't believe shouting, or the sound waves emitted by shouting, does anything to molecules of air, then you should look into it.

Before criticizing Stoneking and calling him an idiot, you should read about the effects sound waves have on molecules.

Sound waves are energy. By claiming they shred the air, he's just saying the energy released by sound waves causes molecules to react. Some even claim sound waves could heat objects or emit enough energy to light a light bulb.

Bottom line is it does affect air molecules. He's correct. Y'all haters should read before bashing the man.

[barry72]

I was only able to attend 1 night of NAYC this year, but it seems like the biggest take away was that they almost broke a world record for breaking the loudest decibel from an arena.....Who cares?

This is why I'm concerned. The noise level was the most visited status on Facebook concerning Congress.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Brother Lee Stoneking would be proud.

[Pressing-On]

If y'all don't believe shouting, or the sound waves emitted by shouting, does anything to molecules of air, then you should look into it.

Before criticizing Stoneking and calling him an idiot, you should read about the effects sound waves have on molecules.

Sound waves are energy. By claiming they shred the air, he's just saying the energy released by sound waves causes molecules to react. Some even claim sound waves could heat objects or emit enough energy to light a light bulb.

Bottom line is it does affect air molecules. He's correct. Y'all haters should read before bashing the man.

What does that have to do with fighting the good fight of faith? The louder the stronger?

[Evang.Benincasa]

What does that have to do with fighting the good fight of faith? The louder the stronger?

Sister when was the last time you shouted? :)

[MawMaw]

I think God loves loud praise!!! ❤❤

[Steve Epley]

Folks complain about this then go to some sports arena? Have rock music at church? Rock and rap music on their iPods?
Just wondering?

[Ferd]

Folks complain about this then go to some sports arena? Have rock music at church? Rock and rap music on their iPods?
Just wondering?

Amen elder.



As a student of history, let me say that there has never been a battle that did not include a good bit of shouting. that release of energy has two effects.
1. it encourages the individual
2. it discourages the opponent.

Im not a Stonking fan and can and have discussed from a purely theological perspective his doctrinal foibles.

This is not one of those. the blogger is a hater. So... what does light have to do with darkness?

[Ferd]

There is plenty of scripture related to raising ones voice to the lord in praise. In fact there is plenty of scripture that relates shouting to the Lord as a form of warfare. both physical and spiritual.

Joshua 6:20


So the people shouted, and priests blew the trumpets; and when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted with a great shout and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight ahead, and they took the city.

2 Chron 13:15
Then the men of Judah raised a war cry, and when the men of Judah raised the war cry, then it was that God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.

[Ferd]

Is 12:6
Cry aloud and shout for joy, O inhabitant of Zion, For great in your midst is the Holy One of Israel

Ps 47:1
O clap your hands, all peoples; Shout to God with the voice of joy.

[Ferd]

In fact the Psalmist David enjoins ALL THE EARTH to raise its collective voices in praise to God.

He tells the sea to clap its hands, to raise its voice. He intones the people to shout "with the voice of many waters".

He instructs the mountains to speak out and to fall on their faces. David in fact states that if the people will not Praise God, the ROCKS WILL CRY OUT.

[Pressing-On]

If your worship doesn't lead you into obedience to Jesus Christ, you are simply making noise.

I remember being instructed that to get God's attention, you need to make some noise. So, I am praying at home, lifting my voice in praise, clapping my hands... Becoming a bit tired with this outward display, I say, "Oh, forget it." I then kneel by my bed and whisper, "I love you, Jesus." The spirit of the Lord fills the room. He doesn't require us to slam and shout to get His attention is all I am saying.

[n david]

I believe the issue is because Stoneking said it. People either love him or really, really hate him. Had Bernard or some other preacher said what Stoneking said, there wouldn't be much question about it, because what was said was true. Sure, it wasn't eloquent or explained in scientific terms, but sound waves affect molecules. It's scientifically proven. It's also true that in the OT people shouted when God commanded and victories were won.

You don't want to raise your voice, fine. But don't bash the man just because he stated a biblical and scientific fact.

[Ferd]

The ONLY place in scripture that deals with the idea of tamping down worship is where Sauls daughter Micah, also the wife of David was disgusted with David dancing before the Lord.

God did not agree with her and dealt with her harshly.

Stoneking did not call satain the Prince of the Air. The bible states that.

Anyone seeking to fill satans principality with PRAISE TO GOD gets my support. Not because I like getting loud for geebus. That's silly. NO. I fill that space with Praise because my God is worthy of it. I support it because ITS BIBLICAL. Because God INJOINS his people to do so, and because doing so does in fact serve notice both to The Children of God AND to Satan, that there is no comfort for Satan, not even in his principality.


God love you folks who like your polite Jesus. But when you politeness extends to the battlefield, im sorry, but really... im not looking for you to be the guy(or gal) standing next to me holding that shield of faith that is supposed to help protect me....

[Ferd]

If your worship doesn't lead you into obedience to Jesus Christ, you are simply making noise.
I remember being instructed that to get God's attention, you need to make some noise. So, I am praying at home, lifting my voice in praise, clapping my hands... Becoming a bit tired with this outward display, I say, "Oh, forget it." I then kneel by my bed and whisper, "I love you, Jesus." The spirit of the Lord fills the room. He doesn't require us to slam and shout to get His attention is all I am saying.

well that's sound doctrine!

Im all for that. but lets not toss the baby out with the bathwater!

The bible also says BE STILL (quiet) and know that I am God"

There is a time and place for ALL THINGS.

When I teach on prayer, you better believe that I instruct Apostolics that prayer isn't ALL telling God stuff! if you don't spend time LISTENING you are not going anywhere.

BUT put STONEKINGs comments at NAYC in CONTEXT. He wasn't teaching. Those kids in general are REALLY GOOD at saying nothing. At being quiet at church. There is nothing wrong with teaching them that there is a time and place for a war shout.

[Ferd]

I believe the issue is because Stoneking said it. People either love him or really, really hate him. Had Bernard or some other preacher said what Stoneking said, there wouldn't be much question about it, because what was said was true. Sure, it wasn't eloquent or explained in scientific terms, but sound waves affect molecules. It's scientifically proven. It's also true that in the OT people shouted when God commanded and victories were won.

You don't want to raise your voice, fine. But don't bash the man just because he stated a biblical and scientific fact.

/\ this right here...

Amen

Anyone who has been around here knows ive spoken harshly about some of his doctrinal views. But THIS is NOT one of those.

[Evang.Benincasa]

If your worship doesn't lead you into obedience to Jesus Christ, you are simply making noise.

I remember being instructed that to get God's attention, you need to make some noise. So, I am praying at home, lifting my voice in praise, clapping my hands... Becoming a bit tired with this outward display, I say, "Oh, forget it." I then kneel by my bed and whisper, "I love you, Jesus." The spirit of the Lord fills the room. He doesn't require us to slam and shout to get His attention is all I am saying.

Sure doesn't hurt.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I believe the issue is because Stoneking said it. People either love him or really, really hate him.

Whoa, really HATE HIM.

That's a bit flipped out, don't you agree?

An Apostolic who really hates his brother has more issues then the one who he is hating. :)

[Ferd]

If your worship doesn't lead you into obedience to Jesus Christ, you are simply making noise.

I remember being instructed that to get God's attention, you need to make some noise. So, I am praying at home, lifting my voice in praise, clapping my hands... Becoming a bit tired with this outward display, I say, "Oh, forget it." I then kneel by my bed and whisper, "I love you, Jesus." The spirit of the Lord fills the room. He doesn't require us to slam and shout to get His attention is all I am saying.

you know I love and respect you...

I agree, God does not require us to "slam".... im pretty sure he instructs us to shout... considering all the scripture that speaks to the subject.

[n david]

Whoa, really HATE HIM.

That's a bit flipped out, don't you agree?
Flipped out? No. Look at any thread about Stoneking or one of his statements and you'll find a lot of venom and hatred towards him.

An Apostolic who really hates his brother has more issues then the one who he is hating. :)
This is true.

[n david]

The ONLY place in scripture that deals with the idea of tamping down worship is where Sauls daughter Micah, also the wife of David was disgusted with David dancing before the Lord.

God did not agree with her and dealt with her harshly.

Stoneking did not call satain the Prince of the Air. The bible states that.

Anyone seeking to fill satans principality with PRAISE TO GOD gets my support. Not because I like getting loud for geebus. That's silly. NO. I fill that space with Praise because my God is worthy of it. I support it because ITS BIBLICAL. Because God INJOINS his people to do so, and because doing so does in fact serve notice both to The Children of God AND to Satan, that there is no comfort for Satan, not even in his principality.


God love you folks who like your polite Jesus. But when you politeness extends to the battlefield, im sorry, but really... im not looking for you to be the guy(or gal) standing next to me holding that shield of faith that is supposed to help protect me....

:thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

Shout with a voice of triumph!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/84d684ac3860e2db5433b6903a948a1f/tumblr_miyk19GFDT1qfmdlzo3_250.gif

[Evang.Benincasa]

Flipped out? No. Look at any thread about Stoneking or one of his statements and you'll find a lot of venom and hatred towards him.


This is true.

Where is there a statement made that has venom and hatred?

[Pressing-On]

well that's sound doctrine!

Im all for that. but lets not toss the baby out with the bathwater!

The bible also says BE STILL (quiet) and know that I am God"

There is a time and place for ALL THINGS.

When I teach on prayer, you better believe that I instruct Apostolics that prayer isn't ALL telling God stuff! if you don't spend time LISTENING you are not going anywhere.

BUT put STONEKINGs comments at NAYC in CONTEXT. He wasn't teaching. Those kids in general are REALLY GOOD at saying nothing. At being quiet at church. There is nothing wrong with teaching them that there is a time and place for a war shout.
I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around focusing on decibel levels. I can't quite see the Apostles preaching or focusing on that issue.

I don't mind the boisterous praise and the shout. I am also a participant. What I want us to be careful of is leaning too much on the element of making noise and not getting as excited when the scriptures are read. That is what brings me to my feet more than anything. I have seen young people shout, but not be made strong by it. Something appeared to be surface noise with no depth. That is all I fear the most - noise with no depth of commitment to God.

Pulled over to respond to your post. Better get back on the highway before a police officer thinks I am in trouble or waiting to pick up a stash of illegals. Lol

[n david]

Where is there a statement made that has venom and hatred?
The thread which immediately comes to mind was deleted pretty quickly. Using the pure definition of the word "hate," there are many posts which show deep, intense or emotional dislike towards Stoneking. There's even a thread in which someone had to make a qualifying statement before stating they would pray for Stoneking while he was having surgery.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The thread which immediately comes to mind was deleted pretty quickly. Using the pure definition of the word "hate," there are many posts which show deep, intense or emotional dislike towards Stoneking. There's even a thread in which someone had to make a qualifying statement before stating they would pray for Stoneking while he was having surgery.

Yet, people haven't done that recently?

This was back in the bad old days when this place was overrun with trolling haters? Haters who were disgruntled ex-Apostolics who not only had ill feelings about the movement, but also despised anyone who represented the movement?

[n david]

Yet, people haven't done that recently?

This was back in the bad old days when this place was overrun with trolling haters? Haters who were disgruntled ex-Apostolics who not only had ill feelings about the movement, but also despised anyone who represented the movement?
The deleted thread was from last year; the qualified prayer was by someone who still posts regularly.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The deleted thread was from last year; the qualified prayer was by someone who still posts regularly.

I bet they don't feel that way anymore. :)

[votivesoul]

The scientific and Biblical disconnect that is occurring is that while all sound waves are merely vibrations travelling across air molecules, and while some kind of spirit (not called Satan) is called the prince of the power of the air in Ephesians 2:2, the references don't cross over into each other.

Spirits are not physical forces with physical kingdoms or domains made up of physical molecules of air (i.e. nitrogen, oxygen, and other gases) any more than the Spirit of God is literally "breath" or "wind" in the sense of air molecules being sped up or slowed down by temperature variations, even though both ruach in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek can mean breath or wind.

There are parallels to teach spiritual applications, perhaps, in that some of these words are used as metaphors. But the sound waves I make with my voice, no matter the decibel levels, don't affect spirits physically, as though they had literal "ears to hear" (that is, the physical organs of hearing to receive and transmit sound waves to the brain, which acts as the center of sound interpretation) since they aren't physical creatures. It is a supernatural event that transcends air molecules and sound wave vibrations.

Yes, all that we do in prayer, intercession, and worship is done through our physical bodies, but once accomplished, the things we say and/or do transcend the physical reality of the natural world and cross over into the realm of the spirit, i.e. the heavenlies. Once those things transmigrate the barrier between the physical to the spiritual, there is also a transubstantiation of those things.

And we cannot say that shouting extra loud at a massive youth convention is going to do more or less once the waves of high decibel sound transmigrate that barrier.

In fact, it's quite possible that some, many, or even most, were shouting with the voice of don't let the next kid see me not obey the preacher. Meanwhile some twelve year old saint, not caught up in the hype of the moment, with tears quietly and gently falling down her face, is in the presence of the Almighty, being used by Him to do the only real damage to "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience..."

[ApostolicKitty]

There is plenty of scripture related to raising ones voice to the lord in praise. In fact there is plenty of scripture that relates shouting to the Lord as a form of warfare. both physical and spiritual.

Joshua 6:20
So the people shouted, and priests blew the trumpets; and when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted with a great shout and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight ahead, and they took the city.

2 Chron 13:15
Then the men of Judah raised a war cry, and when the men of Judah raised the war cry, then it was that God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.

:thumbsup

[ApostolicKitty]

I know God has responded to me in times when I have shouted AND when I have whispered quietly to him. So, I have nothing against either. The are both a necessary part of communication with Him, depending on the circumstance.

As far as Stoneking goes, no, I don't like him. I certainly don't hate him, though I do hate some of the baloney he has put out there. I also hate that my mother is Catholic.

[Steve Epley]

Ferd is laying it down.:happydance

[n david]

I don't mind the boisterous praise and the shout. I am also a participant. What I want us to be careful of is leaning too much on the element of making noise and not getting as excited when the scriptures are read. That is what brings me to my feet more than anything.
I could agree we shouldn't focus solely on the noise of the shout. A Christian living just for the shout is as vulnerable as one who believes the prosperity doctrine. What happens when the shout is gone, or the trials come? What's the source of the shout?



I have seen young people shout, but not be made strong by it. Something appeared to be surface noise with no depth. That is all I fear the most - noise with no depth of commitment to God.
Certainly there were those in the arena who match what you wrote. I've been in meetings like this in years gone by and was both once a bystander without depth of committment and, at other times, an ardent worshipper.

[Ferd]

I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around focusing on decibel levels. I can't quite see the Apostles preaching or focusing on that issue.

I don't mind the boisterous praise and the shout. I am also a participant. What I want us to be careful of is leaning too much on the element of making noise and not getting as excited when the scriptures are read. That is what brings me to my feet more than anything. I have seen young people shout, but not be made strong by it. Something appeared to be surface noise with no depth. That is all I fear the most - noise with no depth of commitment to God.

Pulled over to respond to your post. Better get back on the highway before a police officer thinks I am in trouble or waiting to pick up a stash of illegals. Lol

2 Chron 13:15
Then the men of Judah raised a war cry, and when the men of Judah raised the war cry, then it was that God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.


There you go.

As ive started balance is always key. shouting will never be the whole answer.

I have taught over the years, one particular thing on one day, to the exclusion of other interconnected things, because that's what I needed to do.

We are taking in isolation one 5 minute period during a weekend conference where there were classes during the day and very long services with preaching every night of the conference.

and we are acting like this is what NAYC was? this 5 minutes? im sorry but really that's not being intellectually honest.

NAYC was not simply a yell practice. Our kids that went came home changed. We had kids go that were boarderline. they came home with a commitment I had not seen in them before.

That wasn't because for 5 minutes one night they got really really loud.

BUT I am glad they had that moment of experiencing a real War Shout. It is worthy. It is a good thing. it aint the only thing they need. It wont sustain them during the seasons when the heavens turn to brass and they feel no prayer reaches heaven. BUT it IS one of the things a child of God needs in their lives.

[Pressing-On]

The scientific and Biblical disconnect that is occurring is that while all sound waves are merely vibrations travelling across air molecules, and while some kind of spirit (not called Satan) is called the prince of the power of the air in Ephesians 2:2, the references don't cross over into each other.

Spirits are not physical forces with physical kingdoms or domains made up of physical molecules of air (i.e. nitrogen, oxygen, and other gases) any more than the Spirit of God is literally "breath" or "wind" in the sense of air molecules being sped up or slowed down by temperature variations, even though both ruach in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek can mean breath or wind.

There are parallels to teach spiritual applications, perhaps, in that some of these words are used as metaphors. But the sound waves I make with my voice, no matter the decibel levels, don't affect spirits physically, as though they had literal "ears to hear" (that is, the physical organs of hearing to receive and transmit sound waves to the brain, which acts as the center of sound interpretation) since they aren't physical creatures. It is a supernatural event that transcends air molecules and sound wave vibrations.

Yes, all that we do in prayer, intercession, and worship is done through our physical bodies, but once accomplished, the things we say and/or do transcend the physical reality of the natural world and cross over into the realm of the spirit, i.e. the heavenlies. Once those things transmigrate the barrier between the physical to the spiritual, there is also a transubstantiation of those things.

And we cannot say that shouting extra loud at a massive youth convention is going to do more or less once the waves of high decibel sound transmigrate that barrier.

In fact, it's quite possible that some, many, or even most, were shouting with the voice of don't let the next kid see me not obey the preacher. Meanwhile some twelve year old saint, not caught up in the hype of the moment, with tears quietly and gently falling down her face, is in the presence of the Almighty, being used by Him to do the only real damage to "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience..."

Very well written post!!

Again, I just want to say that, "Waves of high decibel sound transmigrating that barrier" is just such a weird place to start or to even focus a sermon. I'm sorry to the readers and participants of this thread, but I wouldn't know where to go in the Bible to get that kind of information. Going outside of the Bible to get it is very weird. I can't wrap my brain around that story. :heeheehee

[Pressing-On]

There is plenty of scripture related to raising ones voice to the lord in praise. In fact there is plenty of scripture that relates shouting to the Lord as a form of warfare. both physical and spiritual.
Joshua 6:20
So the people shouted, and priests blew the trumpets; and when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted with a great shout and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight ahead, and they took the city.

2 Chron 13:15
Then the men of Judah raised a war cry, and when the men of Judah raised the war cry, then it was that God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.

Is 12:6
Cry aloud and shout for joy, O inhabitant of Zion, For great in your midst is the Holy One of Israel
Ps 47:1
O clap your hands, all peoples; Shout to God with the voice of joy.

In fact the Psalmist David enjoins ALL THE EARTH to raise its collective voices in praise to God.

He tells the sea to clap its hands, to raise its voice. He intones the people to shout "with the voice of many waters".

He instructs the mountains to speak out and to fall on their faces. David in fact states that if the people will not Praise God, the ROCKS WILL CRY OUT.

2 Chron 13:15
Then the men of Judah raised a war cry, and when the men of Judah raised the war cry, then it was that God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.

There you go.

As ive started balance is always key. shouting will never be the whole answer.

I have taught over the years, one particular thing on one day, to the exclusion of other interconnected things, because that's what I needed to do.

We are taking in isolation one 5 minute period during a weekend conference where there were classes during the day and very long services with preaching every night of the conference.

and we are acting like this is what NAYC was? this 5 minutes? im sorry but really that's not being intellectually honest.

NAYC was not simply a yell practice. Our kids that went came home changed. We had kids go that were boarderline. they came home with a commitment I had not seen in them before.

That wasn't because for 5 minutes one night they got really really loud.

BUT I am glad they had that moment of experiencing a real War Shout. It is worthy. It is a good thing. it aint the only thing they need. It wont sustain them during the seasons when the heavens turn to brass and they feel no prayer reaches heaven. BUT it IS one of the things a child of God needs in their lives.

I agree that balance is the key and that shouting will not be the whole answer. Again, I am a participant, so I am not against any form of worship that is decent and in order. You don't have a problem with me on that at all.

I highlighted your other posts because I am wondering why we find and quote the passages from the OT ONLY. What did the Apostles teach?

I see Peter sitting in Cornelius's home, explaining the Hebrew scriptures and the Holy Ghost falls and fills the people present. That is an awesome experience right there - the "scriptures" brought down the power of God.

We had the same experience in our church. Many came back changed and several children also experienced their parents being renewed and others receiving the Holy Ghost for the first time. So, again, we agree - "this 5 minutes" of decibel language wasn't the full impact.

it aint the only thing they need. It wont sustain them during the seasons when the heavens turn to brass and they feel no prayer reaches heaven. BUT it IS one of the things a child of God needs in their lives.

If we teach this to them upon returning than we have done a great job. :thumbsup

I deleted the rest of what I really wanted to say. Because there are a lot of things to take into account and this forum is not the place to do that properly.

[Ferd]

I agree that balance is the key and that shouting will not be the whole answer. Again, I am a participant, so I am not against any form of worship that is decent and in order. You don't have a problem with me on that at all.

I highlighted your other posts because I am wondering why we find and quote the passages from the OT ONLY. What did the Apostles teach?

I see Peter sitting in Cornelius's home, explaining the Hebrew scriptures and the Holy Ghost falls and fills the people present. That is an awesome experience right there - the "scriptures" brought down the power of God.

We had the same experience in our church. Many came back changed and several children also experienced their parents being renewed and others receiving the Holy Ghost for the first time. So, again, we agree - "this 5 minutes" of decibel language wasn't the full impact.



If we teach this to them upon returning than we have done a great job. :thumbsup

I deleted the rest of what I really wanted to say. Because there are a lot of things to take into account and this forum is not the place to do that properly.

I suspect we are not very far apart... maybe stressing different areas... im just challenging some blog that claims to be Apostolic and yet finds a fun way to bash Apostolics. im fairly intolerant of such...

let me just say that there is a whole church... the Church of Christ that doesn't have music because they cannot find music in the New Testament.

I do remember that Paul and Silas were up at midmight singing and worshiping God when God sent an earthquake.

I remember that when they showed up at the home the folk inside were praying and hardly had time for them.

[Pressing-On]

I suspect we are not very far apart... maybe stressing different areas... im just challenging some blog that claims to be Apostolic and yet finds a fun way to bash Apostolics. im fairly intolerant of such...

let me just say that there is a whole church... the Church of Christ that doesn't have music because they cannot find music in the New Testament.

I do remember that Paul and Silas were up at midmight singing and worshiping God when God sent an earthquake.

I remember that when they showed up at the home the folk inside were praying and hardly had time for them.
But, their focus wasn't how how loud they could get. It was on their faith in what they believed.

Paul: Silas you ain't loud enough. We aren't going to get out of here unless we make some waves of high decibel sound transmigrating that barrier.

Silas: Oh, okay. Let's get louder.

Did they think like that? No, I would say they didn't. Why even go there is my question?

I am sure that we are not far apart on our view.

I don't, generally, enter praise at the top of my lungs. I begin and allow God to take that where ever He wants it to go. If it ends in a shout - great. I don't ever, again, want to hear someone tell me to prove my relationship with God by my shout.

My main point of view, which will never change, is that I want to talk about my "faith" that moves mountains, and not about how loud I can get in a service. This "decibel" wording just set off something that has always bugged me.

You know how you hear a message and want to borrow elements? The "decibel" language isn't one of those examples. :heeheehee

Anyway, I stand solely on - If your praise doesn't lead you into obedience to Jesus Christ, you are simply making noise.

I could get into other pet peeves - "Father God" and "Comfort Zone". :heeheehee

[votivesoul]

All of this about the Biblical command to shout as an aspect of worship to God is beside the point. Any sensible person who reads the Scriptures with an open mind should be able to see it's there and is a part of what we are to do as an offering of praise to God.

The issue is the "literally shredding the air molecules" concept. You can't shred molecules of air with the human voice, and even if you could, it wouldn't do jack to hurt the devil. If it could, you could likely punch him in the face with your hand.

There is something called sonolysis which makes use of a process called cavitation, which can cause the destruction of various chemical bonds between larger molecules, none of which include air molecules. However, none of this even matters, as even if sound waves could destroy molecular bonds regarding the air, it still wouldn't affect the devil or his minions.

Sound waves can be used in all sorts of ways to destroy things. Sound weapons are being developed by militaries. But so what? The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, i.e. not the flesh, i.e. of the natural, material realm.

Shouting in worship only has the effect it has because it's one tool in the spiritual arsenal of our warfare. It's not the sound waves created, but the use God makes of our obedience in doing it that causes Him to deliver or render victory.

I can scream louder than most anyone I know, if I was put to a contest. This doesn't give me victory over sin and the devil. The blood of the lamb and the word of my testimony does.

[Pressing-On]

All of this about the Biblical command to shout as an aspect of worship to God is beside the point. Any sensible person who reads the Scriptures with an open mind should be able to see it's there and is a part of what we are to do as an offering of praise to God.

The issue is the "literally shredding the air molecules" concept. You can't shred molecules of air with the human voice, and even if you could, it wouldn't do jack to hurt the devil. If it could, you could likely punch him in the face with your hand.

There is something called sonolysis which makes use of a process called cavitation, which can cause the destruction of various chemical bonds between larger molecules, none of which include air molecules. However, none of this even matters, as even if sound waves could destroy molecular bonds regarding the air, it still wouldn't affect the devil or his minions.

Sound waves can be used in all sorts of ways to destroy things. Sound weapons are being developed by militaries. But so what? The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, i.e. not the flesh, i.e. of the natural, material realm.

Shouting in worship only has the effect it has because it's one tool in the spiritual arsenal of our warfare. It's not the sound waves created, but the use God makes of our obedience in doing it that causes Him to deliver or render victory.

I can scream louder than most anyone I know, if I was put to a contest. This doesn't give me victory over sin and the devil. The blood of the lamb and the word of my testimony does.
CHECKMATE!!!!

:hanky :hanky :hanky

:yourock

[votivesoul]

CHECKMATE!!!!

:hanky :hanky :hanky

:yourock

Thus making the preaching of this an unnecessary act of inaccurate dogmatism instead of any real deep spiritual truth.

[Pressing-On]

Thus making the preaching of this an unnecessary act of inaccurate dogmatism instead of any real deep spiritual truth.

Exactly! It is pure sensationalism. My goodness. It totally breaks my heart! And now how many churches are going to, which already do so, put a larger measuring stick on your personal walk with God on how loud you are in a service. It's already happening.

[houston]

Always some new gimmick with this guy.

The guys drilling to hell wasn't enough.

There was also the laying on of split ends and the holy magic hair doctrine.

What else?

Osama Bib Laden's wives waxed glossolalic.

I can't believe this guy still draws a crowd.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Always some new gimmick with this guy.

The guys drilling to hell wasn't enough.

There was also the laying on of split ends and the holy magic hair doctrine.

What else?

Osama Bib Laden's wives waxed glossolalic.

I can't believe this guy still draws a crowd.

Some people love and enjoy hearing him preach. :)

[Ferd]

funny... new gimmick...

sorry that aint new.

[houston]

Some people love and enjoy hearing him preach. :)

He can claim that he was abducted by aliens and converted them... and people would PTL and roll on the floor.

[Evang.Benincasa]

He can claim that he was abducted by aliens and converted them... and people would PTL and roll on the floor.

But the conversion would still be that they went down in the water in Jesus name and when they came up they were SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES!

Wow, I felt a shout coming on just typing that while in my head hearing Brother Stonking saying those words!

PLEASE CLAP AS YOU ARE SEATED! :happydance

[Esaias]

I said this on the other thread about this blog - he's a self admitted "post modern". The name of his blog is designed to draw younger apostolics in so he can feed them poison.

Shouting is Biblical.

Stoneking is... not my cup of tea.

Next?

[Pressing-On]

funny... new gimmick...

sorry that aint new.

I think he was referring to the context in which the message regarding shouting was delivered as being the gimmick. Focusing on the "decibel level" and going into what science says on the subject seems like the gimmick.

It places the focus on us and not the power of the Holy Ghost. It's the same situation as the magic hair, IMO.

The bottom line - everything is about our faith in Jesus Christ. We don't need to go into areas of "witches use their hair" or "scientific evidence shows", etc.

Tell me about Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost. Don't come at me with scientific evidence that if I lift my voice to a certain degree, I can war with the prince of the power of the air. Because, it is not me - I can do all things "THROUGH CHRIST" who gives me strength.

Shout all you want, but let if be because of your faith and not because you understand something about decibel levels.

Let's keep our focus vertically and not horizontally.

[n david]

God commanded the Israelites to shout and battles were won. There's Biblical principle in this, not just scientific evidence. The reason I posted about the scientific proof is because people were questioning whether it was true. Like it or not, God has used various means through which to show His power and might, including the command to shout.

As to Stoneking, watch the video. He stated: "God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions." He then gave reference to the Old Testament, when God commanded His people to shout. After this, he related the information about sound waves, "shredding" the air, etc.

If you have issue with this, then you have issue with God's commands to the children of Israel in the Old Testament.

[Pressing-On]

God commanded the Israelites to shout and battles were won. There's Biblical principle in this, not just scientific evidence. The reason I posted about the scientific proof is because people were questioning whether it was true. Like it or not, God has used various means through which to show His power and might, including the command to shout.

As to Stoneking, watch the video. He stated: "God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions." He then gave reference to the Old Testament, when God commanded His people to shout. After this, he related the information about sound waves, "shredding" the air, etc.

If you have issue with this, then you have issue with God's commands to the children of Israel in the Old Testament.

"I'm not sure I understand this...What is it about shouting that would cause such a tremendous manifestation of power?"

I understand it. It is "FAITH". God parted the Red Sea, and He made the walls of Jericho fall.

He would have done well enough to stop with scriptures.

[Ferd]

God commanded the Israelites to shout and battles were won. There's Biblical principle in this, not just scientific evidence. The reason I posted about the scientific proof is because people were questioning whether it was true. Like it or not, God has used various means through which to show His power and might, including the command to shout.

As to Stoneking, watch the video. He stated: "God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions." He then gave reference to the Old Testament, when God commanded His people to shout. After this, he related the information about sound waves, "shredding" the air, etc.

If you have issue with this, then you have issue with God's commands to the children of Israel in the Old Testament.


I can say that before out kids went to NAYC they were pretty inhibited. since they came back, they have been far more involved in the regular worship and alter prayer times. so while im seriously NOT an LS fanboy, for our kids, they came home from that event changed.

and remember this. LS got 5 minutes. this was 5 minutes out of the entire conference.

They did not spend an entire conference teaching yell class.

[n david]

I've had some memorable times in my walk with God. There are memorials built which include times of deep prayer and crying out to God. And there have been at least two very memorable times when a shout caused my situation to turn around. Sitting there quietly meditating or quietly praying would not have done it. It was the praise, it was the shout that turned it around.

So all this criticism of what happened at NAYC blows my mind. It shouldn't because, well, this is AFF, but I'm still surprised when this happens.

"The Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

You try doing that, sitting there whispering your little prayers.

[Pressing-On]

I've had some memorable times in my walk with God. There are memorials built which include times of deep prayer and crying out to God. And there have been at least two very memorable times when a shout caused my situation to turn around. Sitting there quietly meditating or quietly praying would not have done it. It was the praise, it was the shout that turned it around.

So all this criticism of what happened at NAYC blows my mind. It shouldn't because, well, this is AFF, but I'm still surprised when this happens.

"The Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

You try doing that, sitting there whispering your little prayers.
Thanks for the scripture, which garners FAITH.

What was on your mind, in your hour of need, while sitting or kneeling? Was this what you were thinking about?

"With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts it shreds the air."

Notice the focus is horizontal - "the human voice".

Everything else he said was scriptural and correct. This little element raises a red flag in my mind. It promotes sensationalism. Sensationalism is not intellectually honest.

The focus of this thread is not on the merits of NAYC. It is about this one statement that doesn't sound well at all.

Would you use this in a lesson? Would you teach this to your children? I wouldn't go near it with a ten foot pole.

[n david]

Thanks for the scripture, which garners FAITH.

What was on your mind, in your hour of need, while sitting or kneeling? Was this what you were thinking about?

"With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts it shreds the air."

Notice the focus is horizontal - "the human voice".

Everything else he said was scriptural and correct. This little element raises a red flag in my mind. It promotes sensationalism. Sensationalism is not intellectually honest.

The focus of this thread is not on the merits of NAYC. It is about this one statement that doesn't sound well at all.

Would you use this in a lesson? Would you teach this to your children? I wouldn't go near it with a ten foot pole.
I understood what Stoneking was saying. I didn't miss the whole lead up to that point in which he laid the Biblical foundation.

What did the children of Israel use when God commanded them to shout? It wasn't just faith! It was their human voice.

I highly doubt Stoneking believes it's only our human voice which does anything. Yes, it's faith, but faith without works is dead. You can have all the faith in the world, and it will do absolutely nothing if not put into action. And until we're in heaven, we have human bodies which means we use human means --- through faith.

Again, the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force. This is not a quiet, passive scene. This paints a very loud, very intense picture. So, yes, I would use the example. The reason is because it's something we can all understand. Tell 20,000 kids that God commanded people to shout and things happened and they'll praise God for what he did. Tell them that sound waves dispell molecules in the air and they now have something they can really grasp and understand.

Stoneking simply used a physical or scientific example to relate a spiritual truth or principle. People use personal experiences, practical or scientific examples all the time. Why is this any different?

Other than it was Stoneking who said it.

[Pressing-On]

Tell 20,000 kids that God commanded people to shout and things happened and they'll praise God for what he did. Tell them that sound waves dispell molecules in the air and they now have something they can really grasp and understand.
.

So, what you just said is that sensationalism, among the youth, will always win against solid scriptural exegesis.

How sad...

[n david]

So, what you just said is that sensationalism, among the youth, will always wins against solid scriptural exegesis.

How sad...
Not at all what I said. :nah Not at all. That statement there shows you've completely ignored the "solid scriptural exegesis" Stoneking gave preceeding the example he gave. You're now just putting words in my mouth.

What I said was that putting Biblical principles into examples they know and understand helps when it comes to Biblical stories like this. It's not sensationalism, it's simply relating something in a way the audience can understand.

[Pressing-On]

Not at all what I said. :nah Not at all. That statement there shows you've completely ignored the "solid scriptural exegesis" Stoneking gave preceeding the example he gave. You're now just putting words in my mouth.

What I said was that putting Biblical principles into examples they know and understand helps when it comes to Biblical stories like this. It's not sensationalism, it's simply relating in a way the audience can understand.

No, that is what you said. Read it again. You gave them a choice of what they had more confidence in - scripture or sensationalism.

Tell 20,000 kids that God commanded people to shout and things happened and they'll praise God for what he did. Tell them that sound waves dispell molecules in the air and they now have something they can really grasp and understand.


This whole thread has been about this one statement and the "sensationalism" involved. You just proved that point.

Word.

[Ferd]

No, that is what you said. Read it again. You gave them a choice of what they had more confidence in - scripture or sensationalism.



This whole thread has been about this one statement and the "sensationalism" involved. You just proved that point.

Word.

the whole thread is about 5 minutes during an entire conference that went on for what? 2 or 3 days?


...


...


...


majoring on the minors anet we?

the proof is in the putting as they say. our kids came back very much changed for having been there.... they surely have not been harmed.


The idiot that has the blog this thread links to however is in fact harming Apostolic kids. I would like to spit some beechnut in that dudes eye.

except I don't chew anymore.

so...

errr....

we have this whole entire thread with lots of scripture that says SHOUT TO THE LORD ALL YE PEOPLE

and we are beating up LS. that's nonsense.

[n david]

No, that is what you said. Read it again. You gave them a choice of what they had more confidence in - scripture or sensationalism.

This whole thread has been about this one statement and the "sensationalism" involved. You just proved that point.

Word.
I've enjoyed not arguing with you for a long while now, but I won't sit and allow you to add, twist, hack or spin what I posted. I did not post that giving these kinds of examples shows confidence in sensationalism over scripture. You're completely wrong on what I posted.

I'm on God's side. He commanded His people to shout for the victory many times throughout the Bible. You can sit in a seat and whisper a prayer if you wish. God will answer your prayer and my praise. Don't bash the praise and I won't bash the whispered prayers.

[Pressing-On]

the whole thread is about 5 minutes during an entire conference that went on for what? 2 or 3 days?


Ferdinand, The topic of the thread is not about the 2 or 3 days. It is not on the merits of NAYC2015.

This thread is solely focused on the ridiculous statement made by Stoneking, which I greatly oppose as "sensationalism". I was fine with what he was saying until he got here:

"With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts it shreds the air."

I refuse to support the statement. :foottap

I didn't need to go outside the Bible to study that my FAITH moves God, for heaven's sake. I will not allow anyone discussing the merits of shouting and praise to focus on "decibel levels" with me. I will not teach this to my children nor my grandchildren.

I believe in the supernatural. I believe in being natural and letting God be super.

Part the Red Sea, drop the walls of Jericho. It was God alone not the children of Israel. The walls fell because of their obedience and faith. It had nothing to do with the "decibel level" of their voices. What a bunch of hogwash.

[n david]

the whole thread is about 5 minutes during an entire conference that went on for what? 2 or 3 days?

majoring on the minors anet we?

the proof is in the putting as they say. our kids came back very much changed for having been there.... they surely have not been harmed.

The idiot that has the blog this thread links to however is in fact harming Apostolic kids. I would like to spit some beechnut in that dudes eye.

except I don't chew anymore.

so...

errr....

we have this whole entire thread with lots of scripture that says SHOUT TO THE LORD ALL YE PEOPLE

and we are beating up LS. that's nonsense.
:thumbsup

[Ferd]

First of all, Pressing-On, you know I love and respect you. im pained to not be on the same side of an issue with you... I mean im serious about that and I would never say a thing disrespectful to or of you... and you know how disrespectful I am willing to be from time to time! LOL


Let me say as a man who has spent more than a few years as a Youth Pastor (no longer as I have graduated). I spent a lot of time trying to get Apostolic Young people to shed their inhibitions and just be willing to talk to God/Worship God without being worried about what the kid next to them at church was thinking.

That 5 minutes with Stoneking did as much for Young People in that area as a lot of us Youth Pastors have spent entire ministries trying to do.

Every bit of that was in order. Every bit of that was a benefit to those kids and I suspect the vast majority of the youth pastors there were appreciative.

[n david]

Part the Red Sea, drop the walls of Jericho. It was God alone not the children of Israel. The walls fell because of their obedience and faith. It had nothing to do with the "decibel level" of their voices. What a bunch of hogwash.
Please review what Stoneking said. He did not say the walls of Jericho fell because of a decibel level. In fact, nothing was said about decibel levels at all, just a shout to God.

"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions. I'm not sure I understand this, but in the Old Testament, people would shout at the command of God and walls would come down, enemies would be discomfitted, battles would become won. And I thought to myself, what is it about shouting that would cause such a tremendous manifestation of power. With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air. The devil is the prince and power of the air. So I understand, then, that if the people of God will shout....(inaudible)"

"It's happening. It's happening. The devil's kingdom is being shredded, and the demonstration of ...(inaudible)... power is upon you. You can cause the lame to walk. You can cause the blind to see. You cause the deaf to hear. You can raise the dead. Because it is written, 'These signs shall follow them that believe. In my Name, in my Name, they shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues. They, believers, shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.' They shall recover. They shall recover. It's on you. It's on you. It's on you. If you will clap your hands and shout with your voice, God will deliver you from all fear. 'I deliver you from all fear,' saith the Lord. 'I deliver you from all inhibitions,' said the Lord. That's it! Clap your hands, all ye people, and shout unto the Lord with a voice of triumph!"

I see nowhere in there where he says they will cause the lame to walk, blind to see, deaf to hear, dead to live -- because of a decibel level. He gives scripture as to why/how it will happen.

The reason for the shout was because he said God spoke to him and, as God did in the OT, commanded the people to shout and He would deliver them.

If you can't agree with that, or believe that's sensationalism, then good grief. I have nothing else to say.

[Thinker]

**smh

[Pressing-On]

First of all, Pressing-On, you know I love and respect you. im pained to not be on the same side of an issue with you... I mean im serious about that and I would never say a thing disrespectful to or of you... and you know how disrespectful I am willing to be from time to time! LOL


Let me say as a man who has spent more than a few years as a Youth Pastor (no longer as I have graduated). I spent a lot of time trying to get Apostolic Young people to shed their inhibitions and just be willing to talk to God/Worship God without being worried about what the kid next to them at church was thinking.

That 5 minutes with Stoneking did as much for Young People in that area as a lot of us Youth Pastors have spent entire ministries trying to do.

Every bit of that was in order. Every bit of that was a benefit to those kids and I suspect the vast majority of the youth pastors there were appreciative.

Thank you, Ferd. And, yes, I do know how you are willing to be. LOL!

I will take your words into consideration, because I think you know that I hold you in high regard.

[Pressing-On]

Please review what Stoneking said. He did not say the walls of Jericho fell because of a decibel level. In fact, nothing was said about decibel levels at all, just a shout to God.

"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions. I'm not sure I understand this, but in the Old Testament, people would shout at the command of God and walls would come down, enemies would be discomfitted, battles would become won. And I thought to myself, what is it about shouting that would cause such a tremendous manifestation of power. With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air. The devil is the prince and power of the air. So I understand, then, that if the people of God will shout....(inaudible)"

"It's happening. It's happening. The devil's kingdom is being shredded, and the demonstration of ...(inaudible)... power is upon you. You can cause the lame to walk. You can cause the blind to see. You cause the deaf to hear. You can raise the dead. Because it is written, 'These signs shall follow them that believe. In my Name, in my Name, they shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues. They, believers, shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.' They shall recover. They shall recover. It's on you. It's on you. It's on you. If you will clap your hands and shout with your voice, God will deliver you from all fear. 'I deliver you from all fear,' saith the Lord. 'I deliver you from all inhibitions,' said the Lord. That's it! Clap your hands, all ye people, and shout unto the Lord with a voice of triumph!"

I see nowhere in there where he says they will cause the lame to walk, blind to see, deaf to hear, dead to live -- because of a decibel level. He gives scripture as to why/how it will happen.

The reason for the shout was because he said God spoke to him and, as God did in the OT, commanded the people to shout and He would deliver them.

If you can't agree with that, or believe that's sensationalism, then good grief. I have nothing else to say.


I believe you will look back and see that I stated, "Everything else he said was scriptural and correct."

My take away from viewing the video clip is that the youth had a profound belief that if they moved, God would move, and they were at just the right place to want God to move.

Looking over the statement, if he left out the words in bold, he would have gotten the same response from the audience. So, IMO, it was unnecessary, and like the magic hair, puts the focus on us and not on God. Everything else he said focused on God.

That is my opinion, and I stick by that. However, when our youth came back, the focus was on noise. It is problematic to me, as you stated in another post:

I could agree we shouldn't focus solely on the noise of the shout. A Christian living just for the shout is as vulnerable as one who believes the prosperity doctrine. What happens when the shout is gone, or the trials come? What's the source of the shout?


I don't believe you can traverse between two opinions.

[Ferd]

if this whole weekend had been a cheer session, trying to get kids to blow out their voice, I would NOT be happy.

it wasn't.

ive seen the fruits of the event.

im very happy with it..

HEY PRESSING!!
The Orriginal Baby Ferd will be going the next NAYC! can you believe that? My oldest will be in the youth group for the next NAYC

#thisisfreakingmeout

[n david]

I believe you will look back and see that I stated, "Everything else he said was scriptural and correct."

My take away from viewing the video clip is that the youth had a profound belief that if they moved, God would move, and they were at just the right place to want God to move.

Looking over the statement, if he left out the words in bold, he would have gotten the same response from the audience. So, IMO, it was unnecessary, and like the magic hair, puts the focus on us and not on God. Everything else he said focused on God.

That is my opinion, and I stick by that. However, when our youth came back, the focus was on noise. It is problematic to me, as you stated in another post:
And again, the reason for the example was to make it easier for them to understand or relate to. When I teach my daughter about what happened in the Bible, I often use examples to reinforce what the Bible says. I'm not sensationalizing it. I'm bringing it to a point where she can understand and relate. Stoneking was doing just that. You don't like it, that's fine. I liked his example. God moved, that's all that matters.


I don't believe you can traverse between two opinions.
That's not transversing between two opinions. Like Ferd said, if the whole of the conference was about shouting, I wouldn't agree with it. My approval of Stoneking's 5 minutes on the shout doesn't contradict my belief that a person shouldn't focus SOLELY on the shout.

[Pressing-On]

if this whole weekend had been a cheer session, trying to get kids to blow out their voice, I would NOT be happy.

it wasn't.
I agree, Ferdinand. But, that wasn't the point of the thread.

ive seen the fruits of the event.

im very happy with it..
:thumbsup:thumbsup

HEY PRESSING!!
The Original Baby Ferd will be going the next NAYC! can you believe that? My oldest will be in the youth group for the next NAYC

#thisisfreakingmeout

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are getting old!!!! :heeheehee

[Pressing-On]

And again, the reason for the example was to make it easier for them to understand or relate to. When I teach my daughter about what happened in the Bible, I often use examples to reinforce what the Bible says. I'm not sensationalizing it. I'm bringing it to a point where she can understand and relate. Stoneking was doing just that. You don't like it, that's fine. I liked his example. God moved, that's all that matters.
IMO, it wasn't a good example. I am very certain that God moved only because of the faith in the room.

And, again, it was way too sensational for me. For the record, my husband is in agreement. He also said it reminded him of the magic hair issue, and that we can't allow people to rely on noise when they are seeking something from God. For one thing, it usually has short term effects - his words.


That's not transversing between two opinions. Like Ferd said, if the whole of the conference was about shouting, I wouldn't agree with it. My approval of Stoneking's 5 minutes on the shout doesn't contradict my belief that a person shouldn't focus SOLELY on the shout.
Okay.

[Ron]

IMO, it wasn't a good example. I am very certain that God moved only because of the faith in the room.

And, again, it was way too sensational for me. For the record, my husband is in agreement. He also said it reminded him of the magic hair issue, and that we can't allow people to rely on noise when they are seeking something from God. For one thing, it usually has short term effects - his words.


Okay.


Hi PO, like most things in life I am a day late. God is in the shout & many times he is not, sometimes God is in the quiet move of God & many times it is just shallow dead Church!
I love emotion, God's attributes of Love & his Peace touch me in my emotions, but I told my Pastor recently that I fear for this upcoming generation of, "entertain me, "excite me," "keep me occupied" & have very "
shallow roots!"
These people, when the hard times of trial & testing come, & they will come, these people who are just in the emotional phase will be shaken in their faith.
Many times, we as a Church body are not always quick to share our wisdom & experience with new converts especially young people, we may have better retention of our new converts!
Your husband has good wisdom!:thumbsup

Don't get me going on fog machines, spot lights & disco balls!:grumpy

[Pressing-On]

Hi PO, like most things in life I am a day late. God is in the shout & many times he is not, sometimes God is in the quiet move of God & many times it is just shallow dead Church!
I love emotion, God's attributes of Love & his Peace touch me in my emotions, but I told my Pastor recently that I fear for this upcoming generation of, "entertain me, "excite me," "keep me occupied" & have very "
shallow roots!"
These people, when the hard times of trial & testing come, & they will come, these people who are just in the emotional phase will be shaken in their faith.
Many times, we as a Church body are not always quick to share our wisdom & experience with new converts especially young people, we may have better retention of our new converts!
Your husband has good wisdom!:thumbsup

Don't get me going on fog machines, spot lights & disco balls!:grumpy

Thank you, Ron. I am afraid with Reality TV, Instagram, Facebook, etc. it is moving us way too much into - "let me feel good quick!!" It's an easy sell.

There have been times in prayer when it felt like brass to heaven, where I have said, "God, I love you. I love your word. I don't have to feel a thing. I am telling you that I will serve you because you are faithful."

Aside from the topic at hand - HOW are you DOING? How is your health today? Any new reports on your heart?

[Ron]

Thank you, Ron. I am afraid with Reality TV, Instagram, Facebook, etc. it is moving us way too much into - "let me feel good quick!!" It's an easy sell.

There have been times in prayer when it felt like brass to heaven, where I have said, "God, I love you. I love your word. I don't have to feel a thing. I am telling you that I will serve you because you are faithful."

Aside from the topic at hand - HOW are you DOING? How is your health today? Any new reports on your heart?

And is usually in those times of testing when God "seemed" to be on "vacation" & nowhere around! We know his Bible says otherwise & need to order our lives after that fact!
I am doing fine and slowly getting my stamina back & a few weeks back on a youth night at Church on Friday, they all went to play a couple of games ofg Laser Tag!
I not only drove a bunch there, but I joined in as well!
I couldn't figure out why the game was only 15-20 minutes long.
I found out--it was an intense 15-20 minutes running over a course on three levels.
I surprised my kids when the first game was between the reds & the greens, I was on the greens & I was the top scorer.
The second game, that was a free for all had me be the 4th from the top.\
A lot of fun. The guys want to do paint ball next.
My kids said, "Wow Dad, I.m surprised!"
I said, "why?"
They said, "well you know, your heart condition!"
I said, "they fixed that!":happydance

[Ferd]

I agree, Ferdinand. But, that wasn't the point of the thread.


:thumbsup:thumbsup



WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are getting old!!!! :heeheehee

LOL!
how many grandbabies do you have?

sorry couldn't resist!

[Ferd]

Thank you, Ron. I am afraid with Reality TV, Instagram, Facebook, etc. it is moving us way too much into - "let me feel good quick!!" It's an easy sell.

There have been times in prayer when it felt like brass to heaven, where I have said, "God, I love you. I love your word. I don't have to feel a thing. I am telling you that I will serve you because you are faithful."

Aside from the topic at hand - HOW are you DOING? How is your health today? Any new reports on your heart?

This right here Ron, been praying for ya!

[Pressing-On]

LOL!
how many grandbabies do you have?

sorry couldn't resist!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! :smack

Nueve!!!!

And the girls are done - no mas!

[Pressing-On]

And is usually in those times of testing when God "seemed" to be on "vacation" & nowhere around! We know his Bible says otherwise & need to order our lives after that fact![Quote]
Amen!

[quote]I am doing fine and slowly getting my stamina back & a few weeks back on a youth night at Church on Friday, they all went to play a couple of games ofg Laser Tag!
I not only drove a bunch there, but I joined in as well!
I couldn't figure out why the game was only 15-20 minutes long.
I found out--it was an intense 15-20 minutes running over a course on three levels.
I surprised my kids when the first game was between the reds & the greens, I was on the greens & I was the top scorer.
The second game, that was a free for all had me be the 4th from the top.\
A lot of fun. The guys want to do paint ball next.
My kids said, "Wow Dad, I.m surprised!"
I said, "why?"
They said, "well you know, your heart condition!"
I said, "they fixed that!":happydance
Wow! Okay, we've always joked around quite a bit on this forum, but in this case I'm afraid to do that now. LOL!

[Ron]

This right here Ron, been praying for ya!

Thanks, I appreciate that, it is quite sobering to look a family condition in the eye & realize if the Lord tarries, that will be what takes you out!:tissue

On the flip side, I hear your young'n isn't a young'n no more!
Tempus Fugit!:thumbsup

[Ron]

[QUOTE=Ron;1388721]And is usually in those times of testing when God "seemed" to be on "vacation" & nowhere around! We know his Bible says otherwise & need to order our lives after that fact![Quote]
Amen!


Wow! Okay, we've always joked around quite a bit on this forum, but in this case I'm afraid to do that now. LOL!

I told my oldest afterwards that if this was real life with real guns, I would have been dead the first few seconds after I stepped on the floor as I fgot hit 5 or 6 times before I took my first shot!:heeheehee

No, there was a spirit of cheating & subterfuge going around in there, I went looking for people & found Phoebe one of our young people who calls me "dad" as she is from one of the "too many" single parent homes in our Church but I digress.
I went to shoot at her, but in the darkness, I saw her gun but not her vest & went, "what??"
Then I saw that she had her vest between her knees!!!!
On the second game, I took my light summer jacket & tied it around my vest & went to town.
Later on the youth said I was "cheating!!"
Imagine that??
I simply stated, "I was leveling the playing field & how dare they shoot an elder!!!":happydance

[CC1]

If y'all don't believe shouting, or the sound waves emitted by shouting, does anything to molecules of air, then you should look into it.

Before criticizing Stoneking and calling him an idiot, you should read about the effects sound waves have on molecules.

Sound waves are energy. By claiming they shred the air, he's just saying the energy released by sound waves causes molecules to react. Some even claim sound waves could heat objects or emit enough energy to light a light bulb.

Bottom line is it does affect air molecules. He's correct. Y'all haters should read before bashing the man.

C'mon, you know good and well that the complaint is that he will take some basic scientific principle like this and extrapolate it out into crazy conlusions. Of course sound affects the molecules in the air but absolutey nowhere in the bible does it say that this has anything to do with anything spiritual. All power in spiritual warfare comes from God and not screaming.

[Nitehawk013]

I miss the good ol' days when the really good stuff Stoneking said so far outnumbered the dumb stuff that only people with a hardcore anti-Stoneking vendetta like DAII would make a big deal about it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I miss the good ol' days when the really good stuff Stoneking said so far outnumbered the dumb stuff that only people with a hardcore anti-Stoneking vendetta like DAII would make a big deal about it.

People like Brother Stoneking, and that's the way it is. No matter what kind of unprovable things he might say, people enjoy his ministry.

[votivesoul]

I read the entire quote in context, as provided by n_david, and this is what I see:

There is unlimited potential in this auditorium.

A common thing to say at rallies and conventions, especially among the youth, who are constantly struggling with identity and faith. It sounds spiritual, but it doesn't really mean anything important. It gets the emotional juices going, i.e. it's a set-up for the show-stopping part of the act to come.

God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions.

I am always cautious to debate whether or not God has spoken to someone, because I would hate to be a false witness against God. So I will give it a maybe, but something about the above doesn't ring true, which is this:

The "certain thing" God allegedly wanted them to do was shout, as the rest of the sermon indicates. The promise was that if they shouted, God would deliver them of "all fear and inhibition".

The only place where we are promised deliverance from fear is in 1 John 4:18. It reads that perfect love casts out fear, as I'm sure we all know. I do not see how a few minutes of shouting immediately and irrevocably perfected everyone's love and cast out their fear. The perfection of love is done by keeping God's Word (1 John 2:5). Yes, shouting unto God is a part of His Word, and keeping It can make the difference in certain areas of our walk with Him. But shouting as an act of praise doesn't mean we are keeping His Word in any other place in our lives, and so, shouting is insufficient to, and cannot enable us to, keep God's Word in total---meaning, a session of praise shouting isn't going to perfect our love, meaning, fear and inhibition isn't going to be cast out the way the Lord intends.

A shout may steel nerves, and be a bracer against pain, discomfort, or injury; it may be a release valve for spleen or stress, and in this way, may function as a war cry. Well and good, but don't make it automatically more spiritual than that. A bunch of people shouting because it's expected of them and has been indirectly demanded of them, doesn't make the shout a move of God. Imagine if after he told them to shout, no one did? Or only some did? The next thing said would have been a rebuke for denying the will of God and not getting with it.

Just because a bunch of people can respond on cue, doesn't mean anything. How spiritually immature and easily influenced are young people? Children's crusades, anyone (http://www.britannica.com/event/Childrens-Crusade)? Especially when the most famous preacher in the entire movement since Paul is the one giving the order?

I'm not sure I understand this, but in the Old Testament, people would shout at the command of God and walls would come down, enemies would be discomfitted, battles would become won.

"At the command of God..." indicating that what Brother Stoneking was about to say was the "command of God", at least according to him. See how easy it is to equate the preacher with the Lord? Maybe God really did speak to him and maybe He really did want all the people there to shout???

But as pointed out above, it doesn't quite gel with the Scriptures the way it should have if God had actually spoken.

And I thought to myself, what is it about shouting that would cause such a tremendous manifestation of power. With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air.

He's been preaching this for at least a half decade, as I heard him say the exact same thing at Mid-Winter Camp, at Parkway Apostolic Church, in Oak Creek, WI, several years ago. He also led the people there to shout.

So to pass this off as a "fresh word from the Lord" isn't honest. This appears to have been done deliberately.

Which is beside the point, since the human voice, no matter the decibel level, cannot "shred" air molecules. Air molecules are a collection of gases, chiefly nitrogen and then oxygen, (and then, other gases in extra-minute portions, for example argon). To "shred" the molecular bonds of these gases would make the air in the immediate vicinity of the shouter immediately un-breathable.

Yes, air molecules can be separated, but not by soundwaves, rather by massive shifts in temperature (See: http://www.messergroup.com/de/Info_Download/publikationen/Gases-for-Life_en.pdf).

And the human voice, no matter how hard one tries, can never generate sufficient temperature variations to cause molecular instability in air molecules (See: http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/poster-coffee.cfm)

You can google all day long the phrase "the human voice shreds air molecules" and you'll never find anything remotely close to whatever he claims to have found out.

Which is again beside the point, because even if somehow, the human voice could "shred" air molecules, it would

1.) Have to get to such a high decibel that everyone within close proximity, including the shouter, would immediately be knocked out if not actually killed. Sound pain threshold is around 150 decibels, meaning, when a noise of any kind gets to that level, people begin to experience pain, even to the bursting of ear drums. And such decibel levels are usually only found next to an explosion, or a jet taking off (See: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/175996-can-a-loud-enough-sound-kill-you).

and/or

2.) still not have any effect upon a spiritual being like Satan or a devil, in that the effect is merely physical. The only thing that would get shredded would be the shouter and the people immediately adjacent.

The devil is the prince and power of the air. So I understand, then, that if the people of God will shout....(inaudible)"

Now that the set-up has been properly executed, and the whole convention has been put on notice of the awesome thing God was going to do if they just shouted really loud, the pay-off can be brought to bear on the gullible, i.e. the young and those not educated enough in physics to know that what he just said is a scientific impossibility.

It doesn't matter if he qualified it with "So I understand...". This doesn't get him off the hook FOR BEING FLAT OUT WRONG AND MISLEADING.

This is not about getting my hate on for Lee Stoneking. This is about realizing that we the people of God, as long as we keep buying this type of manipulative nonsense are never going to see the real thing from God. We're all too happy to just keep chopping away at all the substitutional, artificial preacher fodder. So is it any wonder that the "greater works than these" never really manifest the way we all want them to, in the movement?

It's happening. It's happening. The devil's kingdom is being shredded...

He just equated the shredding of air molecules (a literal, scientific impossibility) with the shredding of the devil's kingdom, thus leading them all to believe that they were actually shredding actual air molecules in their shout against the devil. He is telling them that the decibel level of their voice in the "shout" is doing something supernatural, as if, as Pressing_On pointed out, it was the level of their voices, and not the work of the Almighty, that was doing the job.

And pray, I thought the purpose of the shout was to deliver them from all fear and inhibitions? Why is it now an assault on the devil? Destroying the works of the devil is no guarantee against fearfulness. The flesh is fully capable of generating its own fear.

...and the demonstration of ...(inaudible)... power is upon you. You can cause the lame to walk. You can cause the blind to see. You cause the deaf to hear. You can raise the dead. Because it is written, 'These signs shall follow them that believe. In my Name, in my Name, they shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues. They, believers, shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.' They shall recover. They shall recover. It's on you. It's on you. It's on you. If you will clap your hands and shout with your voice, God will deliver you from all fear. 'I deliver you from all fear,' saith the Lord. 'I deliver you from all inhibitions,' said the Lord. That's it! Clap your hands, all ye people, and shout unto the Lord with a voice of triumph!"

Fantastic, if actually so. But 20,000 people a few weeks back all received the power to do signs and wonders like an apostle and no testimonies anywhere since then in the movement indicating that anyone present at NAYC caused the lame to walk, the blind to see, the deaf to hear, or the dead to be raised after they left? Is this a prophecy yet to be fulfilled? A promise from God that He is waiting to do? Have the 20,000 all failed in their newly received commission to, among other things, raise the dead? Or was it all a bunch of sincerely intended, but nonetheless emotional blather?

Praise God for all that He did do among those who attended. I went once and God blessed me in a way that I've never experienced, not before or since. I'm not ranting against NAYC. Nor am I against shouting, as it's a clear Biblical principle of prayer, intercession, and worship.

The issue is the deception and manipulation. Signs and wonders are primarily indicators of apostleship. Do not forget that Jesus was speaking to His Twelve first and foremost. How many people I have met over the years utterly discouraged and fretful that no matter how faithful they are, no matter how fervently they pray, no matter how much they give and sacrifice for God, they never see signs and wonders like they assume are promised to them.

In Acts, you never see all believers through the Roman empire performing the signs and wonders. You see a select group of men, apostles all, entrusted with that kind of power/authority. Maybe we've missed that?

I leave you with the following, if anyone cares to read:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/the-famine-substitutes/

I don't hate Lee Stoneking. In fact I have defended him (remember the UN sermon post?). In a way, he played an important part in my conversion to Christianity (and I would be happy to share it with anyone who wants to know). It's not the man, but the message, that I take issue with. He, like anyone of us can, has made a mistake in this area. We all need to be able to forgive that. But the real issue is that, since he's so famous, so otherwise anointed, has seen the glory of God and has paid the price to do so, over the decades of an otherwise amazing, and amazingly power ministry, that no one in a position to do so, will speak up and say anything about these little flirtings with disaster.

[houston]

People like Brother Stoneking, and that's the way it is. No matter what kind of unprovable things he might say, people enjoy his ministry.

No matter what LIES he spreads.

[Evang.Benincasa]

No matter what LIES he spreads.

That's why you have more than one man in the picture. There are people like you, and I who will point these things out to the others. While I can get a little sarcastic while I'm doing it, and don't hate Brother Stoneking, but understand that somethings he says are unverified.

Concerning LIES as far as doctrine, needs to be placed on top of the doctrines of forgiveness, mercy, and love. You can have Jesus name baptism, One God, holiness, tongues, tithes, offerings, worship, and eschatology totally perfect, but if you don't forgive, you are as lost as the devil.

If you don't love (I mean real love) no sloppy sticky dripping oozing mess, you are lost. When n david posted that people "hate" Brother Stoneking, that didn't sound too good. Because if we hate anyone then being incorrect on other doctrines are the least of our problems. it is impossible to have salvation if you hate people. Now, Luke 14:26 has Jesus saying unless you hate your family and even your own life you cannot follow Him. This didn't mean to walk around loathing yourself. It just meant to follow Jesus, His teachings, and no one else, including your own will. That would include the luxury of hating all who offend you, who don't believe the same as you, or those who tell stories about NASA scientists seeing the New Jerusalem approaching earth from outer space. We are admonished to PROVE all things, hold fast to that which is good. Not just believe everything that flies over a pulpit. Teach that to everyone, and then you won't be worried about a preacher telling a congregation that the tower of Babel was really a rocket ship. :)

[n david]

Hi PO, like most things in life I am a day late. God is in the shout & many times he is not, sometimes God is in the quiet move of God & many times it is just shallow dead Church!
I love emotion, God's attributes of Love & his Peace touch me in my emotions, but I told my Pastor recently that I fear for this upcoming generation of, "entertain me, "excite me," "keep me occupied" & have very "
shallow roots!"
These people, when the hard times of trial & testing come, & they will come, these people who are just in the emotional phase will be shaken in their faith.
Many times, we as a Church body are not always quick to share our wisdom & experience with new converts especially young people, we may have better retention of our new converts!
Your husband has good wisdom!:thumbsup

Don't get me going on fog machines, spot lights & disco balls!:grumpy
I agree, as previously posted, that God is in the shout and in the silence. There needs to be balance. Focus on the shout alone is unhealthy. That said, I disagree that the 5-minutes of a shout at NAYC will cause shallow roots, or youth to wilt at the slightest bit of test or trial. From all accounts, save one, God moved in a mighty way and it had a positive effect on the youth gathered there.

I also disagree with your worry about the future generation. Since there's no clear-cut timeframe for a generation (some say 10, 20, even 70 years), I'll say ages 30 and under. The majority in that age group whom I've known, met, taught and spoken with are very hungry for more than just "entertain me," or "excite me." J. Lee Grady wrote of how this age group is desiring for more of the Holy Ghost. There is a desire for a real move of God. They see through the fog and lighting. They're not satisfied with the pablum being offered at most churches today. The Last Reformation Movement in Denmark is driven by a lot of this 30 and under group, who have left church because it is no longer like the church of the book of the Acts of the Apostles.

I have great faith in the 30 and unders.

[n david]

C'mon, you know good and well that the complaint is that he will take some basic scientific principle like this and extrapolate it out into crazy conlusions. Of course sound affects the molecules in the air but absolutey nowhere in the bible does it say that this has anything to do with anything spiritual. All power in spiritual warfare comes from God and not screaming.
Again, it was simply an example used. Keep drinking the haterade. I dare say if someone else made the statement, it wouldn't be a topic on AFF, especially one to which you replied.

[n david]

I'm not going to lie, this post really angered me. With exception of a couple posts by the muslim and other reprobates, I don't believe I've read a post which has made me so angry. I've written several drafts and edited some of my anger out of my response, but some is still in it. Deal with it.

This is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on AFF.

I read the entire quote in context, as provided by n_david, and this is what I see:
Who doesn't love play by play commentary! Can't wait to read your analysis of each word/line Stoneking said! *excited!*

A common thing to say at rallies and conventions, especially among the youth, who are constantly struggling with identity and faith. It sounds spiritual, but it doesn't really mean anything important. It gets the emotional juices going, i.e. it's a set-up for the show-stopping part of the act to come.
Wait, so this all was just an act?

I am always cautious to debate whether or not God has spoken to someone, because I would hate to be a false witness against God. So I will give it a maybe, but something about the above doesn't ring true, which is this:
I'm so glad you're offering your play by play of the hidden agenda and intentions of Stoneking. Here I thought Stoneking was telling the truth about what he believed God told him. SO GLAD you cleared this up and used your deductive reasoning to show Stoneking is not just a fake and fraud participating in a "show-stopping act," but that he's also a liar who claims God told him something which God really didn't tell him.

Did God tell you this? Did He reveal this deception to you? Or are you Omniscient? :ohplease

The only place where we are promised deliverance from fear is in 1 John 4:18. It reads that perfect love casts out fear, as I'm sure we all know. I do not see how a few minutes of shouting immediately and irrevocably perfected everyone's love and cast out their fear. The perfection of love is done by keeping God's Word (1 John 2:5). Yes, shouting unto God is a part of His Word, and keeping It can make the difference in certain areas of our walk with Him. But shouting as an act of praise doesn't mean we are keeping His Word in any other place in our lives, and so, shouting is insufficient to, and cannot enable us to, keep God's Word in total---meaning, a session of praise shouting isn't going to perfect our love, meaning, fear and inhibition isn't going to be cast out the way the Lord intends.
Again, I'm so happy you took the time to refute Stoneking's lies! Of course, there's my own personal experience which doesn't match up with your claims here...

A shout may steel nerves, and be a bracer against pain, discomfort, or injury; it may be a release valve for spleen or stress, and in this way, may function as a war cry. Well and good, but don't make it automatically more spiritual than that. A bunch of people shouting because it's expected of them and has been indirectly demanded of them, doesn't make the shout a move of God. Imagine if after he told them to shout, no one did? Or only some did? The next thing said would have been a rebuke for denying the will of God and not getting with it.
Wow! So you're a seer, too!? Not only did either God tell you all this, or you're Omniscient, but you can see the future and what may have happened had no one shouted! AMAZING! You should go on TBN and sell your gift for seed offerings. I mean, I would definitely use it for monetary gain, errr, I mean a ministry.

Just because a bunch of people can respond on cue, doesn't mean anything. How spiritually immature and easily influenced are young people? Children's crusades, anyone (http://www.britannica.com/event/Childrens-Crusade)? Especially when the most famous preacher in the entire movement since Paul is the one giving the order?
You're equating what happened at NAYC to kids being indoctrinated to go to war? :ohplease

"At the command of God..." indicating that what Brother Stoneking was about to say was the "command of God", at least according to him. See how easy it is to equate the preacher with the Lord? Maybe God really did speak to him and maybe He really did want all the people there to shout???

But as pointed out above, it doesn't quite gel with the Scriptures the way it should have if God had actually spoken.
Again, amazing! So glad you're going through Stoneking's statement, line by line, and exposing the holes and ripping it to shreds! How dare anyone declare the command of God! (Forget that Billy Cole regularly gave a command of God for people to either be healed or receive the Holy Ghost.) ((And forget prophets and apostles in the Bible also spoke the command of God given to them.))

Glad you also know how God should or shouldn't respond or act. Are you Jesus? Your avatar looks alot like Jesus. Your post doesn't reflect Him at all, but your avatar looks alot like Him!

[n david]

He's been preaching this for at least a half decade, as I heard him say the exact same thing at Mid-Winter Camp, at Parkway Apostolic Church, in Oak Creek, WI, several years ago. He also led the people there to shout.

So to pass this off as a "fresh word from the Lord" isn't honest. This appears to have been done deliberately.
Aha! The smoking gun! The evidence of which CC1 and others have been searching! Ladies and Gentlemen, how could I have missed it?? Obviously if God speaks to someone and gives them a command, it is good for one use only! God cannot give the same command for another conference if He already did so previously.

Thanks for the commentary on how Stoneking isn't being honest, and how he deliberately lied, deceived, etc.

Which is beside the point, since the human voice, no matter the decibel level, cannot "shred" air molecules. Air molecules are a collection of gases, chiefly nitrogen and then oxygen, (and then, other gases in extra-minute portions, for example argon). To "shred" the molecular bonds of these gases would make the air in the immediate vicinity of the shouter immediately un-breathable.

Yes, air molecules can be separated, but not by soundwaves, rather by massive shifts in temperature (See: http://www.messergroup.com/de/Info_Download/publikationen/Gases-for-Life_en.pdf).

And the human voice, no matter how hard one tries, can never generate sufficient temperature variations to cause molecular instability in air molecules (See: http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/poster-coffee.cfm)

You can google all day long the phrase "the human voice shreds air molecules" and you'll never find anything remotely close to whatever he claims to have found out.

Which is again beside the point, because even if somehow, the human voice could "shred" air molecules, it would

1.) Have to get to such a high decibel that everyone within close proximity, including the shouter, would immediately be knocked out if not actually killed. Sound pain threshold is around 150 decibels, meaning, when a noise of any kind gets to that level, people begin to experience pain, even to the bursting of ear drums. And such decibel levels are usually only found next to an explosion, or a jet taking off (See: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/175996-can-a-loud-enough-sound-kill-you).

and/or

2.) still not have any effect upon a spiritual being like Satan or a devil, in that the effect is merely physical. The only thing that would get shredded would be the shouter and the people immediately adjacent.
And now you're a scientist as well! WOW! Dude, I'm genuinely impressed. You should seriously consider TBN or God TV.

Now that the set-up has been properly executed, and the whole convention has been put on notice of the awesome thing God was going to do if they just shouted really loud, the pay-off can be brought to bear on the gullible, i.e. the young and those not educated enough in physics to know that what he just said is a scientific impossibility.

It doesn't matter if he qualified it with "So I understand...". This doesn't get him off the hook FOR BEING FLAT OUT WRONG AND MISLEADING.

This is not about getting my hate on for Lee Stoneking. This is about realizing that we the people of God, as long as we keep buying this type of manipulative nonsense are never going to see the real thing from God. We're all too happy to just keep chopping away at all the substitutional, artificial preacher fodder. So is it any wonder that the "greater works than these" never really manifest the way we all want them to, in the movement?
You must have big ones to be making the accusations you're making. Not even David was willing to do to Saul what you're doing to Stoneking here.

Who needs satanists or atheists when there are Apostolics like you who nit pick, dissect and rip apart every single word the man says. Good grief!

He just equated the shredding of air molecules (a literal, scientific impossibility) with the shredding of the devil's kingdom, thus leading them all to believe that they were actually shredding actual air molecules in their shout against the devil. He is telling them that the decibel level of their voice in the "shout" is doing something supernatural, as if, as Pressing_On pointed out, it was the level of their voices, and not the work of the Almighty, that was doing the job.

And pray, I thought the purpose of the shout was to deliver them from all fear and inhibitions? Why is it now an assault on the devil? Destroying the works of the devil is no guarantee against fearfulness. The flesh is fully capable of generating its own fear.
:ohplease

Fantastic, if actually so. But 20,000 people a few weeks back all received the power to do signs and wonders like an apostle and no testimonies anywhere since then in the movement indicating that anyone present at NAYC caused the lame to walk, the blind to see, the deaf to hear, or the dead to be raised after they left? Is this a prophecy yet to be fulfilled? A promise from God that He is waiting to do? Have the 20,000 all failed in their newly received commission to, among other things, raise the dead? Or was it all a bunch of sincerely intended, but nonetheless emotional blather?
Hold up. You're wrong here. Well, the whole post is wrong, but whatever. The command and promise was that fear and inhibition would be defeated. After which, Stoneking quoted a scripture.

Now, mock Stoneking all you want. But you will NOT mock the scriptures. Who in the world do you think you are, or should I rather ask: who in the devils hell do you think you are. You sit in your chair and nit pick every word Stoneking uttered, and then mock "WHERE ARE THE MIRACLES?"

Good grief. Again, who needs the satanists and atheists when you're doing their job for them.

Praise God for all that He did do among those who attended. I went once and God blessed me in a way that I've never experienced, not before or since. I'm not ranting against NAYC. Nor am I against shouting, as it's a clear Biblical principle of prayer, intercession, and worship.
:ohplease

The issue is the deception and manipulation. Signs and wonders are primarily indicators of apostleship. Do not forget that Jesus was speaking to His Twelve first and foremost. How many people I have met over the years utterly discouraged and fretful that no matter how faithful they are, no matter how fervently they pray, no matter how much they give and sacrifice for God, they never see signs and wonders like they assume are promised to them.
:ohplease

In Acts, you never see all believers through the Roman empire performing the signs and wonders. You see a select group of men, apostles all, entrusted with that kind of power/authority. Maybe we've missed that?
So the signs and wonders are just for a select group of men? Apparently "These signs shall follow them that believe" was a misprint. Jesus must, then, have really said, "These signs shall follow a certain and select group of men only."

:ohplease

I leave you with the following, if anyone cares to read:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/the-famine-substitutes/
(Insert my shameless self-promotion here!)

I don't hate Lee Stoneking.
:ohplease

In fact I have defended him (remember the UN sermon post?). In a way, he played an important part in my conversion to Christianity (and I would be happy to share it with anyone who wants to know). It's not the man, but the message, that I take issue with.
:ohplease

He, like anyone of us can, has made a mistake in this area. We all need to be able to forgive that. But the real issue is that, since he's so famous, so otherwise anointed, has seen the glory of God and has paid the price to do so, over the decades of an otherwise amazing, and amazingly power ministry, that no one in a position to do so, will speak up and say anything about these little flirtings with disaster.
:ohplease

[n david]

One more thing on this quote:

In Acts, you never see all believers through the Roman empire performing the signs and wonders. You see a select group of men, apostles all, entrusted with that kind of power/authority. Maybe we've missed that?
What's the full title of Acts again? Oh right, The Acts of the Apostles. Maybe the reason you only read of "a select group of men" doing the miraculous is because the book is only about the "select group of men," and isn't written with stories of the saints. There wouldn't have been enough parchment and quill to write all of what the early church did -- both the "select group of men" and the saints.

Jesus commissioned the 12 to go, heal and preach the kingdom; He then commissioned another 70 to do the same. It wasn't meant to be kept to a "select group of men."

He commanded the disciples to "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations...Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

The disciples were instructed to teach all nations everything which Jesus had commanded them -- including to heal and preach the kingdom.

Your view of the miraculous only being done by a "select group of men" is what's wrong with the church today. It's why there's no faith. Why there isn't the miraculous being done. The miraculous has been mocked by others, like you did in your post. It's been limited to a "select group of men," like you've posted.

Is it any wonder why it doesn't happen, when "Apostolics" like you rip apart anyone who dares declare God spoke to them; who dares to declare "These signs shall follow them that believe?"

[Pressing-On]

[QUOTE=Pressing-On;1388747][QUOTE=Ron;1388721]And is usually in those times of testing when God "seemed" to be on "vacation" & nowhere around! We know his Bible says otherwise & need to order our lives after that fact!

I told my oldest afterwards that if this was real life with real guns, I would have been dead the first few seconds after I stepped on the floor as I fgot hit 5 or 6 times before I took my first shot!:heeheehee

No, there was a spirit of cheating & subterfuge going around in there, I went looking for people & found Phoebe one of our young people who calls me "dad" as she is from one of the "too many" single parent homes in our Church but I digress.
I went to shoot at her, but in the darkness, I saw her gun but not her vest & went, "what??"
Then I saw that she had her vest between her knees!!!!
On the second game, I took my light summer jacket & tied it around my vest & went to town.
Later on the youth said I was "cheating!!"
Imagine that??
I simply stated, "I was leveling the playing field & how dare they shoot an elder!!!":happydance
:toofunny
I am glad you are having fun and doing well!!! I'm am very sure your family is very happy!

[Pressing-On]

David, All votivesoul is saying is exactly what CC1 has stated, which I very much agree:

Of course sound affects the molecules in the air but absolutey nowhere in the bible does it say that this has anything to do with anything spiritual. All power in spiritual warfare comes from God and not screaming.

That is a huge deal to me when I study and teach - I need Bible to support what I am saying. He went further than the scriptures allow.

"Shout with the voice of triumphant" is Biblical. Going so far as speaking on molecules in the air, not so much. It is too large of a stretch to be comfortable with.

That is really the only thing we should be focusing on in this thread. Like votivesoul said, and I have said, we are not discussing the merits of NAYC2015. That is NOT our point.

The point is - Don't throw me something that is not in the Bible - I don't want to hear it, embrace it or teach it.

I am glad that many youth were blessed, filled and strengthened. God is going to do that very thing when "faith" is present. That is why many women have embraced the "magic hair". They have seen results and placed that solely on their hair, when it was simple faith.

That is the whole point of this thread. What it boils down to is that "Faith" is still the key to our relationship with God. It wasn't the "shouting" that affected change in these young people. It was their "faith" in the risen Saviour.

This whole issue is very Stoneking. It is the same thing with the "magic hair". You saw the photo circulated of the woman laying her hair over prayer requests. Misguided at best, but if any prayer in the basket was answered, it was because the women present believed that God answers prayer. It wasn't because of her hair.

We are focusing on the creature more than the creator.

You mentioned Bro. Billy Cole: "(Forget that Billy Cole regularly gave a command of God for people to either be healed or receive the Holy Ghost.)"

According to the Word and the person's faith, he had every authority to speak that faith. He didn't sit someone in a chair and discuss "air molecules". Comparing Bro. Cole and what Bro. Stoneking said? No comparison.

I also feel the same and agree with Bro. Benincasa on this issue:

That's why you have more than one man in the picture. There are people like you, and I who will point these things out to the others. While I can get a little sarcastic while I'm doing it, and don't hate Brother Stoneking, but understand that somethings he says are unverified.

Concerning LIES as far as doctrine, needs to be placed on top of the doctrines of forgiveness, mercy, and love. You can have Jesus name baptism, One God, holiness, tongues, tithes, offerings, worship, and eschatology totally perfect, but if you don't forgive, you are as lost as the devil.

If you don't love (I mean real love) no sloppy sticky dripping oozing mess, you are lost. When n david posted that people "hate" Brother Stoneking, that didn't sound too good. Because if we hate anyone then being incorrect on other doctrines are the least of our problems. it is impossible to have salvation if you hate people. Now, Luke 14:26 has Jesus saying unless you hate your family and even your own life you cannot follow Him. This didn't mean to walk around loathing yourself. It just meant to follow Jesus, His teachings, and no one else, including your own will. That would include the luxury of hating all who offend you, who don't believe the same as you, or those who tell stories about NASA scientists seeing the New Jerusalem approaching earth from outer space. We are admonished to PROVE all things, hold fast to that which is good. Not just believe everything that flies over a pulpit. Teach that to everyone, and then you won't be worried about a preacher telling a congregation that the tower of Babel was really a rocket ship. :)

I don't believe we have any haters of Stoneking responding to this thread.

[Ferd]

David, All votivesoul is saying is exactly what CC1 has stated, which I very much agree:



That is a huge deal to me when I study and teach - I need Bible to support what I am saying. He went further than the scriptures allow.

"Shout with the voice of triumphant" is Biblical. Going so far as speaking on molecules in the air, not so much. It is too large of a stretch to be comfortable with.

That is really the only thing we should be focusing on in this thread. Like votivesoul said, and I have said, we are not discussing the merits of NAYC2015. That is NOT our point.

The point is - Don't throw me something that is not in the Bible - I don't want to hear it, embrace it or teach it.

I am glad that many youth were blessed, filled and strengthened. God is going to do that very thing when "faith" is present. That is why many women have embraced the "magic hair". They have seen results and placed that solely on their hair, when it was simple faith.

That is the whole point of this thread. What it boils down to is that "Faith" is still the key to our relationship with God. It wasn't the "shouting" that affected change in these young people. It was their "faith" in the risen Saviour.

This whole issue is very Stoneking. It is the same thing with the "magic hair". You saw the photo circulated of the woman laying her hair over prayer requests. Misguided at best, but if any prayer in the basket was answered, it was because the women present believed that God answers prayer. It wasn't because of her hair.

We are focusing on the creature more than the creator.

You mentioned Bro. Billy Cole: "(Forget that Billy Cole regularly gave a command of God for people to either be healed or receive the Holy Ghost.)"

According to the Word and the person's faith, he had every authority to speak that faith. He didn't sit someone in a chair and discuss "air molecules". Comparing Bro. Cole and what Bro. Stoneking said? No comparison.

I also feel the same and agree with Bro. Benincasa on this issue:



I don't believe we have any haters of Stoneking responding to this thread. yea we do.

[n david]

David, All votivesoul is saying is exactly what CC1 has stated, which I very much agree:
I disagree. You and CC1 just took issue with the example Stoneking used. Votive went much further by calling it a staged act, calling Stoneking a liar and fraud and then what was even worse, MOCKING the use of Scripture and claiming the miraculous is/was only for a select group of men.

You mentioned Bro. Billy Cole: "(Forget that Billy Cole regularly gave a command of God for people to either be healed or receive the Holy Ghost.)"

According to the Word and the person's faith, he had every authority to speak that faith. He didn't sit someone in a chair and discuss "air molecules". Comparing Bro. Cole and what Bro. Stoneking said? No comparison.
Both said they were spoken to by God and were given a command for the people. I've recently heard Anthony Mangun say the same thing. Is he a liar too? Does God speak to anyone anymore? Or perhaps just a select group of men hear from Him. Nonsense!

I don't believe we have any haters of Stoneking responding to this thread.
There are those here with an intense dislike or emotional dislike for Stoneking, which is the definition of hate. For crying out loud, CC1 couldn't even post that he was praying for Stoneking without offering a disclaimer that just because he was praying for him, didn't mean he agreed with him. Seriously? That's some intense dislike. Calling Stoneking a fraud and liar is some intense dislike.

I haven't seen it from you, but there is some Stoneking hate on AFF.

[Pressing-On]

yea we do.

OOPS! Okay, well, I hope you don't lump me into that group. I am in disagreement with a few things (magic hair and air molecules), but I certainly don't hate him. Aside from those things, God will still use a man/woman who has faith in Him, even when they don't have everything right.

[Pressing-On]

I disagree. You and CC1 just took issue with the example Stoneking used. Votive went much further by calling it a staged act, calling Stoneking a liar and fraud and then what was even worse, MOCKING the use of Scripture and claiming the miraculous is/was only for a select group of men.
The whole premise of his argument was focused on that one element - air molecules. I didn't think he was mocking at all. Certainly not on the snarky level as the OP's blogger link. That was pretty snarky.

Votivesoul came at it from a scholarly point of view, IMO. I didn't have an issue with his assessment.


Both said they were spoken to by God and were given a command for the people. I've recently heard Anthony Mangun say the same thing. Is he a liar too? Does God speak to anyone anymore? Or perhaps just a select group of men hear from Him. Nonsense!
I am sure that God does still speak to people. I just don't think he speaks about "air molecules". That was pretty out there, IMO>

There are those here with an intense dislike or emotional dislike for Stoneking, which is the definition of hate. For crying out loud, CC1 couldn't even post that he was praying for Stoneking without offering a disclaimer that just because he was praying for him, didn't mean he agreed with him. Seriously? That's some intense dislike. Calling Stoneking a fraud and liar is some intense dislike.

I haven't seen it from you, but there is some Stoneking hate on AFF.
I don't have to agree or like anything that Obama has done for our country in order to pray for him and his family, which I have done on occasion. What's the difference?

[navygoat1998]

I don't have to agree or like anything that Obama has done for our country in order to pray for him and his family, which I have done on occasion. What's the difference?

Elder Stoneking is saved (as far as I know :hmmm) and President Obama is not. :dogpat

[n david]

The whole premise of his argument was focused on that one element - air molecules. I didn't think he was mocking at all. Certainly not on the snarky level as the OP's blogger link. That was pretty snarky.

Votivesoul came at it from a scholarly point of view, IMO. I didn't have an issue with his assessment.
Scholarly point of view?? Surely ye jest! Claiming it was a staged act is not scholarly. Calling Stoneking a fraud and a liar is not scholarly.

When votive spoke about "these signs shall follow" and the miraculous, then questioned "where are the miracles." That's mocking.

I am sure that God does still speak to people. I just don't think he speaks about "air molecules". That was pretty out there, IMO>
Read Stoneking's comments. What God told him was to have the people shout. He did not say God told him about air molecules. That was what Stoneking looked up on his own.

I don't have to agree or like anything that Obama has done for our country in order to pray for him and his family, which I have done on occasion. What's the difference?
For starters, Stoneking is an Apostolic, obama is not. We could start there. There's an issue if someone has to post a disclaimer when praying for another believer.

[votivesoul]

Truth, to be be truth, especially God's truth, is never mingled with a lie, or even incorrect/false information. To share incorrect/false information as though it's true is deceptive, hence, a lie.

There is no available research anywhere on the internet that can back up what he said he allegedly "found out". I cited sources for my scientific claims (and yes, I was a geography minor in college and heavily studied physical geography including meteorology, hydrology, soil morphology, and how air temps, currents, and etc, effect the atmosphere in regards to evapo-transpiration, to name one category).

So where did it come from? I have every right, as do you and all others, as EB pointed out, to prove all things, and to hold fast to that which is good. I have scientifically proven his claim to be false. This was, once upon a time, considered a noble thing to do, according to Luke, Paul, and the Holy Spirit.

Would God speak a falsehood or allow a man to perpetuate incorrect/false information as part of His impartation of His will?

And since the answer is: God would NEVER do such a thing ("...no lie is of the truth" [1 John 2:21]), the fact that Brother Stoneking (still calling him brother!) perpetrated a lie by affirming incorrect/false information as true, and OF GOD, no less, I have every right to speak up.

This isn't about playing God, or being omniscient. This about rightly dividing the word of truth, so that I can be a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed before the Lord.

Look in Jeremiah, for example (e.g. Jeremiah 29:30-32) and see what God thinks about prophets who cause His people to trust in a lie. God cannot lie! Do we get it, yet?

The Lord have mercy on us all, me, and you, and whoever reads this, and on Brother Stoneking, as we've all erred at some point and mislead people regarding the truth of God's Word. Let's stop covering for people, so as to sweep under the rug the mistakes and sins we commit. Only he that confesses and forsakes his sin will find mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

We are supposed to be able to admonition each other. Reproof and rebuke are a part of every man of God's responsibilities. If no one is reproving Brother Stoneking (the way n_david reproved me) for these obvious errors regarding air molecules and the prince of the power of the air, then I have to ask: who are we really serving?

Look at what Paul wrote in Galatians:

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Protecting someone's image and reputation in order to help them save face in order to cover up dishonest ministry, in even the slightest amount of dishonesty, is a reproach to the entire ministry of the Church of God's New Covenant.

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person: ) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

Paul didn't stop to "give honor" to whoever it was in Jerusalem that seemed to be "somewhat", i.e. important, just because they were considered important. The pillars in Jerusalem (Simon Peter, James, and John) added nothing to Paul or his calling/ministry. Paul had no qualms about calling out Simon Peter (the man with the keys to the kingdom of God, no less) for unrighteous conduct and dishonesty, in front of the entire church, no less, without warning!

Why, because the precious, holy people of God for whom Christ died were being taken up into Simon Peter's "dissimulation" (Galatians 2:13). And dissimulation is, in Greek, hypokrisei, or the pretense of saying one thing but meaning another (which automatically includes deception).

The precious, holy people of God from whom Christ died are being taken up into dissimulation all over the apostolic church, and according to some on this message board, we're all just supposed to roll over and be cool with it, because you know, the famous preachers in our movement can't ever be guilty of anything, they're all too anointed for that!

Ever read 1 Kings 13? A Bible-called "man of God" lied to a nameless prophet, and got him killed. Then, God moved on him and he prophesied for real.

Simon Magus convinced a whole lot of people that he was the great power of God. Many highly spiritual people can tap into what God is doing, and still not be right in some, any, or even all of what they're doing (think Balaam).

So, to act like we should just all zip our lip and pretend like everything's okay is a sin of the highest order.

To not speak up is to be a false witness.

If someone here can't understand that, and/or at least appreciate the motive and reason for why I posted what I did (and in this one, too), even if you vehemently disagree, or come to dislike me because of what I posted, then I am afraid for you, because it, superficially, appears to come closer to "having men's persons in admiration because of advantage" (Jude 1:16) than I and I hope all, would want to come.

If Simon Peter wasn't unrebukeable, then no one in the faith once delivered to the saints is unrebukeable.

[n david]

Whatever. That you try to justify your mocking and your attack on a fellow minister is absurd.

As I posted previously, who needs satanists or atheists when you're doing the job for them. In fact, who needs the devil with you attacking Stoneking and mocking the Bible.

[Pressing-On]

Scholarly point of view?? Surely ye jest! Claiming it was a staged act is not scholarly. Calling Stoneking a fraud and a liar is not scholarly.

When votive spoke about "these signs shall follow" and the miraculous, then questioned "where are the miracles." That's mocking.
I didn't view his post as coming across mocking.

Read Stoneking's comments. What God told him was to have the people shout. He did not say God told him about air molecules. That was what Stoneking looked up on his own.

Thank you. And this has been the point. It wasn't necessary to invoke this unfounded, unbiblical, emotional narrative on the audience. Give me scriptures, leave the sensationalism out of the equation.

For starters, Stoneking is an Apostolic, obama is not. We could start there. There's an issue if someone has to post a disclaimer when praying for another believer.
It doesn't make a difference whether one is saved or not. The point is, we don't have to be in agreement with someone to pray for them - sinner or saint.

I don't have any more time for this subject today. Again, I am thankful our youth had a wonderful experience in all the sessions at NAYC. I pray that they all weigh their worship by one thing - Is my worship launching me into greater obedience to Jesus Christ? If not, I am just making noise.

[Pressing-On]

Truth, to be be truth, especially God's truth, is never mingled with a lie, or even incorrect/false information. To share incorrect/false information as though it's true is deceptive, hence, a lie.

There is no available research anywhere on the internet that can back up what he said he allegedly "found out". I cited sources for my scientific claims (and yes, I was a geography minor in college and heavily studied physical geography including meteorology, hydrology, soil morphology, and how air temps, currents, and etc, effect the atmosphere in regards to evapo-transpiration, to name one category).

So where did it come from? I have every right, as do you and all others, as EB pointed out, to prove all things, and to hold fast to that which is good. I have scientifically proven his claim to be false. This was, once upon a time, considered a noble thing to do, according to Luke, Paul, and the Holy Spirit.

Would God speak a falsehood or allow a man to perpetuate incorrect/false information as part of His impartation of His will?

And since the answer is: God would NEVER do such a thing ("...no lie is of the truth" [1 John 2:21]), the fact that Brother Stoneking (still calling him brother!) perpetrated a lie by affirming incorrect/false information as true, and OF GOD, no less, I have every right to speak up.

This isn't about playing God, or being omniscient. This about rightly dividing the [b]word of truth[/i], so that I can be a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed by the Lord.

Look in Jeremiah, for example (e.g. Jeremiah 29:30-32) and see what God thinks about prophets causes His people to trust in a lie. God cannot lie! Do we get it, yet?

The Lord have mercy on us all, me, and you, and whoever reads this, and on Brother Stoneking, as we've all erred at some point and mislead people regarding the truth of God's Word. Let's stop covering for people, so as to sweep under the rug the mistakes and sins we commit. Only he that confesses and forsake his sin will find mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

We are supposed to be able to admonition each other. Reproof and rebuke are a part of every man of God's responsibilities. If no one is reproving Brother Stoneking (the way n_david reproved me) for these obvious errors regarding air molecules and the prince of the power of the air, then I have to ask: who are we really serving?

Look at what Paul wrote in Galatians:



Protecting someone's image and reputation in order to help them save face in order to cover up dishonest ministry, in even the slightest amount of dishonesty, is a reproach to the entire ministry of the Church of God's New Covenant.



Paul didn't stop to "give honor" to whoever it was in Jerusalem that seemed to be "somewhat", i.e. important, just because they were considered important. The pillars in Jerusalem (Simon Peter, James, and John) added nothing to Paul or his calling/ministry. Paul had no qualms about calling Simon Peter (the man with the keys to the kingdom of God, no less) for unrighteous conduct and dishonesty, in front of the entire church, no less, without warning!

Why, because the precious, holy people of God for whom Christ died were being taken up into Simon Peter's "dissimulation" (Galatians 2:13). And dissimulation is, in Greek, hypokrisei, or the pretense of saying one thing but being another (which automatically includes deception).

The precious, holy people of God from whom Christ died are being taken up into dissimulation all over the apostolic church, and according to some on this message board, we're all just supposed to roll over and be cool with, because you know, the famous preachers in movement can't ever be guilty of anything, they're all too anointed for that!

Ever read 1 Kings 13? A Bible-called "man of God" lied to a nameless prophet, and got him killed. Then, God moved on him and he prophesied for real.

Simon Magus convinced a whole lot of people that he was the great power of God. Many highly spiritual people can tap into what God is doing, and still not be right in some, any, or even all of what they're doing (think Balaam).

So, to act like we should just all zip our lip and pretend like everything's okay is a sin of the highest order.

To not speak up is to be a false witness.

If someone here can't understand that, and/or at least appreciate the motive and reason for why I posted what I did (and in this one, too), even if you vehemently disagree, or come to dislike me because of what I posted, then I am afraid for you, because it, superficially, appears to come closer to "having men's persons in admiration because of advantage" (Jude 1:16).

If Simon Peter wasn't unrebukeable, then no one in the faith once delivered to the saints is unrebukeable.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[n david]

And since the answer is: God would NEVER do such a thing ("...no lie is of the truth" [1 John 2:21]), the fact that Brother Stoneking (still calling him brother!) perpetrated a lie by affirming incorrect/false information as true, and OF GOD, no less, I have every right to speak up.
Go back and watch it read the transcript and show where he said God told him about molecules and sound waves. I'll spare the trouble... He didn't say God told him that.

Now you're lying.

[votivesoul]

Look, n_david. I can tell by your words, and even by your very tone, that, as you admitted, I have angered you. I knew going in, to post what I did, that the cage was going to get rattled.

I stand by what I wrote and believe. But I was not looking to make this personal with you or anyone. If I have offended you, I am sorry.

If anything I wrote isn't truth, and God reproves me, I will repent and seek His forgiveness.

As of right now, know that I am not angry at you or anyone else. I am not repulsed by Brother Stoneking, nor consider him an enemy. But he is in error. My approach and take on everything he said, and how I called it out was not personally directed at him as a man, or as a man of God. He was merely the example that fit the profile I was creating.

I have run afoul, both in Christ, and before Christ, of this kind of super-spirituality. No one has to believe me, but yes, I do know firsthand how spirits work, in bending truth, skewing data, spinning facts, and manipulating people into emotional states that allow them to believe anything.

We all must be ever vigilante to not permit such to occur in us, the Body of Christ. We must constantly examine ourselves and submit ourselves, our ministry, our calling, and even our words, for spiritual cross examination and redress. No one is above accountability. To not submit to someone else's critique is to become blinded into believing your own hype. Brother Stoneking hasn't "arrived" to the point that he is beyond some sincere chastisement, for when he is wrong.

But since no one is publicly saying a word from the UPCI about or against the things he has said, preached, and taught God's people, then all it can mean is either:

A.) The higher ups have bought into it and have been carried away
B.) The higher ups are willing to give it a pass and not say anything to avoid controversy
C.) The higher ups are afraid

Truth is offensive. Jesus is the stumblingblock that CAUSES ONE AND ALL, to stumble, even fall. If you think I've turned tail and become an unworthy brother, or worse, an antichrist, because of what I've written, then I am sorry I've lost a brother.

[votivesoul]

It wasn't necessary to invoke this unfounded, unbiblical, emotional narrative on the audience. Give me scriptures, leave the sensationalism out of the equation.

2 Peter 1:16,

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

[votivesoul]

Those who preach Christ "insincerely" stir up trouble for others (Philippians 1:17).

To be insincere isn't to not intently mean what you say, but to do so mistakenly, i.e. dishonestly, i.e. in an impure way. And mixing truth with a lie is all of the above, no matter how "sincerely" we may think a person is.

[n david]

I didn't view his post as coming across mocking.
You need glasses. :lol

It doesn't make a difference whether one is saved or not. The point is, we don't have to be in agreement with someone to pray for them - sinner or saint.
But do you take time to issue a disclaimer? And it does make a difference whether or not it's a fellow believer. At least it should.

[n david]

Votive - you can continue to try and justify your post, but it was wrong. It was an attack based on no facts or evidence. It was an attack on a fellow minister based on what you think or feel.

You're not Paul. You're just some dude bearing false witness against a brother.

Unless you heard an audible voice from God that Stoneking was staging an act and that he's a fraud and liar, then you should repent and apologize, otherwise you're just a jerk.

You want to compare yourself to Paul? At least he confronted Peter and accused him to his face.

[Ferd]

Truth, to be be truth, especially God's truth, is never mingled with a lie, or even incorrect/false information. To share incorrect/false information as though it's true is deceptive, hence, a lie.

There is no available research anywhere on the internet that can back up what he said he allegedly "found out". I cited sources for my scientific claims (and yes, I was a geography minor in college and heavily studied physical geography including meteorology, hydrology, soil morphology, and how air temps, currents, and etc, effect the atmosphere in regards to evapo-transpiration, to name one category).

So where did it come from? I have every right, as do you and all others, as EB pointed out, to prove all things, and to hold fast to that which is good. I have scientifically proven his claim to be false. This was, once upon a time, considered a noble thing to do, according to Luke, Paul, and the Holy Spirit.

Would God speak a falsehood or allow a man to perpetuate incorrect/false information as part of His impartation of His will?

And since the answer is: God would NEVER do such a thing ("...no lie is of the truth" [1 John 2:21]), the fact that Brother Stoneking (still calling him brother!) perpetrated a lie by affirming incorrect/false information as true, and OF GOD, no less, I have every right to speak up.

This isn't about playing God, or being omniscient. This about rightly dividing the word of truth, so that I can be a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed before the Lord.

Look in Jeremiah, for example (e.g. Jeremiah 29:30-32) and see what God thinks about prophets who cause His people to trust in a lie. God cannot lie! Do we get it, yet?

The Lord have mercy on us all, me, and you, and whoever reads this, and on Brother Stoneking, as we've all erred at some point and mislead people regarding the truth of God's Word. Let's stop covering for people, so as to sweep under the rug the mistakes and sins we commit. Only he that confesses and forsakes his sin will find mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

We are supposed to be able to admonition each other. Reproof and rebuke are a part of every man of God's responsibilities. If no one is reproving Brother Stoneking (the way n_david reproved me) for these obvious errors regarding air molecules and the prince of the power of the air, then I have to ask: who are we really serving?

Look at what Paul wrote in Galatians:



Protecting someone's image and reputation in order to help them save face in order to cover up dishonest ministry, in even the slightest amount of dishonesty, is a reproach to the entire ministry of the Church of God's New Covenant.



Paul didn't stop to "give honor" to whoever it was in Jerusalem that seemed to be "somewhat", i.e. important, just because they were considered important. The pillars in Jerusalem (Simon Peter, James, and John) added nothing to Paul or his calling/ministry. Paul had no qualms about calling out Simon Peter (the man with the keys to the kingdom of God, no less) for unrighteous conduct and dishonesty, in front of the entire church, no less, without warning!

Why, because the precious, holy people of God for whom Christ died were being taken up into Simon Peter's "dissimulation" (Galatians 2:13). And dissimulation is, in Greek, hypokrisei, or the pretense of saying one thing but meaning another (which automatically includes deception).

The precious, holy people of God from whom Christ died are being taken up into dissimulation all over the apostolic church, and according to some on this message board, we're all just supposed to roll over and be cool with it, because you know, the famous preachers in our movement can't ever be guilty of anything, they're all too anointed for that!

Ever read 1 Kings 13? A Bible-called "man of God" lied to a nameless prophet, and got him killed. Then, God moved on him and he prophesied for real.

Simon Magus convinced a whole lot of people that he was the great power of God. Many highly spiritual people can tap into what God is doing, and still not be right in some, any, or even all of what they're doing (think Balaam).

So, to act like we should just all zip our lip and pretend like everything's okay is a sin of the highest order.

To not speak up is to be a false witness.

If someone here can't understand that, and/or at least appreciate the motive and reason for why I posted what I did (and in this one, too), even if you vehemently disagree, or come to dislike me because of what I posted, then I am afraid for you, because it, superficially, appears to come closer to "having men's persons in admiration because of advantage" (Jude 1:16) than I and I hope all, would want to come.

If Simon Peter wasn't unrebukeable, then no one in the faith once delivered to the saints is unrebukeable.

it took longer to read this post, than it did to have the experience at NAYC that we are debating.

again 5 minutes out of a multiple day conference in which there were multiple services that lasted hours, as well as multiple classes that also lasted hours.


5 minutes people. NOT the focus of the whole entire event.

[Evang.Benincasa]

it took longer to read this post, than it did to have the experience at NAYC that we are debating.

That was funny. :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

Go back and watch it read the transcript and show where he said God told him about molecules and sound waves. I'll spare the trouble... He didn't say God told him that.

Now you're lying.

Where did Brother Stoneking say God TOLD HIM?

[Ferd]

OOPS! Okay, well, I hope you don't lump me into that group. I am in disagreement with a few things (magic hair and air molecules), but I certainly don't hate him. Aside from those things, God will still use a man/woman who has faith in Him, even when they don't have everything right.

nah. I only spotted one.

LOL

[Pressing-On]

it took longer to read this post, than it did to have the experience at NAYC that we are debating.

again 5 minutes out of a multiple day conference in which there were multiple services that lasted hours, as well as multiple classes that also lasted hours.


5 minutes people. NOT the focus of the whole entire event.

LOL! Yes, that was funny.

I love you and respect you highly, but I just want to know if you consider this sound and honest hermeneutics?

"And I thought to myself, what is it about shouting that would cause such a tremendous manifestation of power. With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."

Disclaimer: This is an isolated statement and discussion that has nothing whatsoever to do with bashing the entire NAYC event.

We discussed, a while back, an alleged controversial statement made by JA at BOTT. I don't find this discussion any different.

[Pressing-On]

nah. I only spotted one.

LOL

:thumbsup

[n david]

We discussed, a while back, an alleged controversial statement made by JA at BOTT. I don't find this discussion any different.
Only this time I'm defending the minister and you're upset with something he said! :lol

BTW, what JA said was much worse than the example Stoneking used. :nod

[Pressing-On]

Only this time I'm defending the minister and you're upset with something he said! :lol

BTW, what JA said was much worse than the example Stoneking used. :nod

Uh, no. JA was using a crass way of expressing himself, which we are all familiar with.

This statement is so grossly, negligent and stupid, I can't qualify it.

"And I thought to myself, what is it about shouting that would cause such a tremendous manifestation of power. With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."

I love everyone here, but I refuse to accept this statement as part of Christology.

Again, this statement has NOTHING to do with the overall experience of NAYC. This is an isolated statement which has been, rightfully, called into question.

[Pressing-On]

2 Peter 1:16, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty."

:hanky :hanky :hanky

:yourock

[Nitehawk013]

This statement by Stoneking was dumber than his digging deep enough to hear cries from hell nonsense.

There is no defense of it aside from men who are so blinded by his reputation that they refuse to criticize horrific and wrong teachings by said man. Bro Stoneking is a kind man and a great godly gentleman by all accounts I know of. That doesn't excuse occasional stupidity and horrible ideas. It just means he is human like the rest of us.

If screaming loud shredded Satan's kingdom then consider hell destroyed every Saturday and Sunday during football season folks. Just look at all the crazy screaming going on in football stadiums.

[CC1]

Again, it was simply an example used. Keep drinking the haterade. I dare say if someone else made the statement, it wouldn't be a topic on AFF, especially one to which you replied.

No haterade here just sadness at what this guy does and how you syncophants defend it. There are plenty of moderate and conservative preachers I respect even though I don't agree with them. I put LS in the same camp I do the charismatic wacko's who preach about gold dust, pearls falling from the ceiling, everybody will get a Mercedes if they give an offering, etc, etc.

Unbiblical tales and preposterous applications of facts or science are simply tickling the ears of those looking for the sensational.

[n david]

No haterade here just sadness at what this guy does and how you syncophants defend it. There are plenty of moderate and conservative preachers I respect even though I don't agree with them. I put LS in the same camp I do the charismatic wacko's who preach about gold dust, pearls falling from the ceiling, everybody will get a Mercedes if they give an offering, etc, etc.

Unbiblical tales and preposterous applications of facts or science are simply tickling the ears of those looking for the sensational.
:toofunny

Whatever you say.

[n david]

This statement by Stoneking was dumber than his digging deep enough to hear cries from hell nonsense.
That wasn't started by Stoneking. Get your facts straight. This was popular in the 80s and early 90s. Heard it from several, including Stoneking, but it did not originate with him.

There is no defense of it aside from men who are so blinded by his reputation that they refuse to criticize horrific and wrong teachings by said man. Bro Stoneking is a kind man and a great godly gentleman by all accounts I know of. That doesn't excuse occasional stupidity and horrible ideas. It just means he is human like the rest of us.
What I'm defending is LS being called a liar, fraud and the claim by the omniscient Votive that Stoneking is a stage act who didn't really hear from God. I'm absolutely astonished that more people haven't taken issue with this. But apparently the hate for all things LS is so much that people will allow Votive to libel and attack another minister with impunity.

Not only did Votive personally attack LS (which, btw, is against AFF rules), but he went on to mock Scripture and claim that the miraculous doesn't happen, or it is done by only a few select men.

You want to talk about stupidity and bad doctrine, include that.

If screaming loud shredded Satan's kingdom then consider hell destroyed every Saturday and Sunday during football season folks. Just look at all the crazy screaming going on in football stadiums.
Dumb statement. Missed the point, but whatever.

[Praxeas]

http://stuffapostolicslike.blogspot.com/2015/08/286-stoneking-hypothesis-sound-vs-air.html

I actually do not understand what this guy's problem is and I have been a fan of his blog for quite some time.

I would like to know where Stoneking got his sources though.

I just want to know, was it another case of white on black shouting? Was the shouter a cop?

[n david]

Uh, no. JA was using a crass way of expressing himself, which we are all familiar with.
However you wish to justify it.

This statement is so grossly, negligent and stupid, I can't qualify it.
Oh spare the drama. Good grief.

I love everyone here, but I refuse to accept this statement as part of Christology.
That's fine, he didn't use it as part of Christology. It was simply an example. I hope you don't use examples in lessons you give.

[Pressing-On]

However you wish to justify it.


Oh spare the drama. Good grief.


That's fine, he didn't use it as part of Christology. It was simply an example. I hope you don't use examples in lessons you give.

An example? Are you serious?! He laid it out as a factual point, giving the distinct impression that what he presented was biblical.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Where did Brother Stoneking say God TOLD HIM?

:bump

[n david]

:bump
At the very beginning of his message.

"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions."

[n david]

An example? Are you serious?! He laid it out as a factual point, giving the distinct impression that what he presented was biblical.
Yes, an example. And no, he didn't present it as though it was biblical. Have you ever used an example in speaking with someone or teaching?

This whole debate and argument by you all is ridiculous.

[n david]

Votive - are you Baptist? Do you believe miracles ceased with the early church?

Or are you a Catholic, who believes only Priests, Bishops and Popes (select group of men) have keys to the kingdom?

[Esaias]

Which is beside the point, since the human voice, no matter the decibel level, cannot "shred" air molecules.

You've obviously never seen either Judas Priest or Slayer live in concert.



Just saying'... :heeheehee

[Praxeas]

You've obviously never seen either Judas Priest or Slayer live in concert.



Just saying'... :heeheehee
Air Molecules not Ear drums

[Praxeas]

Maybe it shreds hair follicles

[Esaias]

Air Molecules not Ear drums

Brain cells, actually.

[votivesoul]

Votive - are you Baptist? Do you believe miracles ceased with the early church?

Or are you a Catholic, who believes only Priests, Bishops and Popes (select group of men) have keys to the kingdom?

I am not a Cessationalist Baptist, nor a Catholic that believes only priests, bishops, and/or popes have the keys to the kingdom of God.

I simply realize the truth of New Covenant Scripture:

Are all apostles? No.

Are signs and wonders and diverse miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit assigned to, above everyone else, apostles? Yes.

Are all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including the working of miracles and the gifts of healing, given to every believer in the Body of Christ? No.

Are the gifts of the Spirit given out by God according to His will and purpose. Yes.

Can a person who has not been given apostleship or any gift of the Holy Spirit expect to see constant signs, wonders, diverse miracles, and etc.? No.

Does every single person we pray for who is sick or dying recover? No.

Is it God's fault? No.

But is God responsible for being the One who, for whatever righteous reasons, decides to say no to our prayers for the sick and dying? Yes.

Is the "you" in Matthew 16:18, as in "I will give you the keys to the kingdom..." in the the plural? No.

Are the keys to the kingdom the ability to work miracles and heal the sick? No.

Are the keys to the kingdom related to salvation and not to miracles and healings? Yes.

If I have misrepresented the teachings of the Bible the above, show me.

[n david]

I just want to know, was it another case of white on black shouting? Was the shouter a cop?
:toofunny

[Evang.Benincasa]

Where did Brother Stoneking say God TOLD HIM?

:bump

[n david]

:bump

At the very beginning of his message.

"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions."
:bump

[Evang.Benincasa]

At the very beginning of his message.

"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions."

Sorry, I missed this post

[Evang.Benincasa]

What's the "certain" thing?

[n david]

You people complaining about LS' use of an example in his short message and how you believe it's unbiblical and false doctrine....please consider what Votive is claiming here. You want to bash false doctrine, Votive just posted some.

I am not a Cessationalist Baptist, nor a Catholic that believes only priests, bishops, and/or popes have the keys to the kingdom of God.
Your posts certainly give that impression.

I simply realize the truth of New Covenant Scripture:
No, you've twisted the truth and turned it into a damnable lie.

Are all apostles? No.
Okay.

Are signs and wonders and diverse miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit assigned to, above everyone else, apostles? Yes.

Are all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including the working of miracles and the gifts of healing, given to every believer in the Body of Christ? No.
Wrong. Jesus commanded His disciples to teach all nations everything He commanded them. The "everything" includes Luke 9 where He sent the twelve to heal and preach the kingdom, and Luke 10 where He sent out the seventy to do the same.

"These signs shall follow them that believe." If what you claim is true, Jesus would have rather said, "these signs shall follow My Apostles." But He did not say that, did He? No!

I'm sick and tired of ministers and people like you who have allowed the devil to deceive them into believe the miraculous either doesn't happen or is only for a selected few.

Are the gifts of the Spirit given out by God according to His will and purpose. Yes.
The gifts of the spirit are available to anyone who is baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. Yes, they are from God to be used for His will and purpose. But they are not reserved for only a select group of men.

Can a person who has not been given apostleship or any gift of the Holy Spirit expect to see constant signs, wonders, diverse miracles, and etc.? No.
Wrong. It does not hinge on apostleship. Again, you would fit better in a Catholic church with this kind of false doctrine. Jesus said it was for anyone who believes. A believer should see these things happening.

Does every single person we pray for who is sick or dying recover? No.

Is it God's fault? No.

But is God responsible for being the One who, for whatever righteous reasons, decides to say no to our prayers for the sick and dying? Yes.
I don't know why some aren't healed. I'm with Billy Cole, who believed that everyone should be healed and no believer should die from sickness or disease.

Is the "you" in Matthew 16:18, as in "I will give you the keys to the kingdom..." in the the plural? No.

Are the keys to the kingdom the ability to work miracles and heal the sick? No.

Are the keys to the kingdom related to salvation and not to miracles and healings? Yes.
I misused the phrase "keys to the kingdom." Peter was given the keys, which related to salvation.

It's interesting you would accept Peter being given the key, but refuse to accept Jesus' commission to the disciples to go teach all nations everything they were commanded, including to preach and heal.

If I have misrepresented the teachings of the Bible the above, show me.
Done. You bash LS, call him a stage act, fraud and liar, yet you're posting false doctrine yourself!

What about women? Are they allowed in your upper class club of Apostles with the cool gifts?

Does God still heal today? What are the names of some current, living, upper class Apostles with the cool gifts?

You obviously believe yourself to be omniscient, as evidenced by your accusations against LS; do you also believe yourself to be an Apostle?

Bottom line is you believe in a spiritual upper and lower class, that God only gives gifts to certain, select men. Your views fit better with the Catholic church.

[n david]

What's the "certain" thing?
The certain thing was to shout.

[n david]

Am I the only one here bothered by Votive's Catholic-type belief on the miraculous only being available to a spiritual upper-class group of selected men?

You LS bashers, whining about his use of an example...what do you have to say about the false doctrine being posted by Votive?

[Pressing-On]

You people complaining about LS' use of an example in his short message and how you believe it's unbiblical and false doctrine...

"And I thought to myself, what is it about shouting that would cause such a tremendous manifestation of power. With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."


So, he studies to find out the "cause" for the manifest power in the shout. And what he finds, is not that God is the power, but that our human voice shreds the air.

It's unbelievable that you would defend that statement.

According to Stoneking, we don't need the Holy Ghost, we just need our "hair" and our "shout" because that is where the power lies.

Unbelievable!

[n david]

"And I thought to myself, what is it about shouting that would cause such a tremendous manifestation of power. With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."

So, he studies to find out the "cause" for the manifest power in the shout. And what he finds, is not that God is the power, but that our human voice shreds the air.

It's unbelievable that you would defend that statement.

According to Stoneking, we don't need the Holy Ghost, we just need our "hair" and our "shout" because that is where the power lies.

Unbelievable!
You're adding words to what he said. He did NOT say we don't need the Holy Ghost. He did NOT say that God is not the power.

If you can't be intellectually honest about what he said, and not add your own spin to it, then I'm not going to discuss this with you.

[Pressing-On]

You're adding words to what he said. He did NOT say we don't need the Holy Ghost. He did NOT say that God is not the power.

If you can't be intellectually honest about what he said, and not add your own spin to it, then I'm not going to discuss this with you.

"With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."

This statement puts the power in our voice, just like the magic hair.

I will never defend this, and I certainly won't teach it.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation, because Ferdinand is going to whoop up on me. Gotta run. :doggyrun

[Evang.Benincasa]

"With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."

This statement puts the power in our voice, just like the magic hair.

I will never defend this, and I certainly won't teach it.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation, because Ferdinand is going to whoop up on me. Gotta run. :doggyrun

Have you ever busted out in a shout with hair pins flying like shrapnel?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Am I the only one here bothered by Votive's Catholic-type belief on the miraculous only being available to a spiritual upper-class group of selected men?

You LS bashers, whining about his use of an example...what do you have to say about the false doctrine being posted by Votive?

Well, when you apply chapter 12 to everyone in the church, then it would look like only certain people can do certain things. But the chapter is concerning elders in the church. Hence the reason that apostles, and teachers are mentioned. Also tongues and those who will interpret tongues, when you get to chapter 14 it is explained that the tongues and interpreters of tongues are ministers/elders addressing a church. People have to keep in mind that Paul's Epistles are written to elders of church families as instruction. Do all speak with tongues? This is a Baptist candy stick against those who speak with tongues. Yet, do all speak with tongues is followed by do all interpret, so it is speaking of the prophets who by two or three address the congregation in that ministry of tongues and interpretation. Not the speaking in tongues which the church members are involved.

[n david]

"With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air."

This statement puts the power in our voice, just like the magic hair.

I will never defend this, and I certainly won't teach it.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation, because Ferdinand is going to whoop up on me. Gotta run. :doggyrun
Again, the only way you can claim this, is by ignoring everything else LS said and inserting your spin on his words. That one sentence you keep quoting does not say what you claim it says. It doesn't put the power in our voice.

I'm glad though, that, while you didn't retract what you posted earlier, you didn't include them in this post. LS did NOT say we don't need the Holy Ghost, and he did NOT say that God is not the power as you falsely claimed.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Again, the only way you can claim this, is by ignoring everything else LS said and inserting your spin on his words. That one sentence you keep quoting does not say what you claim it says. It doesn't put the power in our voice.

I'm glad though, that, while you didn't retract what you posted earlier, you didn't include them in this post. LS did NOT say we don't need the Holy Ghost, and he did NOT say that God is not the power as you falsely claimed.

What post says that LS stated we don't need the HG?

[n david]

What post says that LS stated we don't need the HG?


So, he studies to find out the "cause" for the manifest power in the shout. And what he finds, is not that God is the power, but that our human voice shreds the air.

According to Stoneking, we don't need the Holy Ghost, we just need our "hair" and our "shout" because that is where the power lies.
Massive leap to claim he doesn't believe God is the power or that we don't need the Holy Ghost. "According to Stoneking..." Stoneking didn't say that, so she cannot honestly nor accurately post "according to Stoneking."

[Evang.Benincasa]

According to Stoneking, we don't need the Holy Ghost, we just need our "hair" and our "shout" because that is where the power lies.

Unbelievable!

Where does Brother Stoneking say that we don't need the Holy Ghost?

[Pressing-On]

Again, the only way you can claim this, is by ignoring everything else LS said and inserting your spin on his words. That one sentence you keep quoting does not say what you claim it says. It doesn't put the power in our voice.

I'm glad though, that, while you didn't retract what you posted earlier, you didn't include them in this post. LS did NOT say we don't need the Holy Ghost, and he did NOT say that God is not the power as you falsely claimed.

My view of the comment is the same view I get from the magic hair. The acts that focus on the object, i.e., the "hair" and the "human voice".

After the hair teaching, we had to go through the "power in the hair" and now we will be forced to focus on our "human voice".

Studying to see why our voice demonstrates power is misguided at best. I didn't have to study that to know that any power I possess comes from God Almighty - period. Hence if my human voice possess such power and if my hair possesses such power, what is the purpose of the Holy Ghost? Apparently, I can enact power without it.

You don't see that, but that is what was expressed to me and how I processed the video clip. And, apparently, I am not the only person who got that from hearing the story relayed, being verified by the clip. If he didn't mean it that way, fine. I still feel the same way after discussing this ad nauseam.

[n david]

My view of the comment is the same view I get from the magic hair. The acts that focus on the object, i.e., the "hair" and the "human voice".

After the hair teaching, we had to go through the "power in the hair" and now we will be forced to focus on our "human voice".

Studying to see why our voice demonstrates power is misguided at best. I didn't have to study that to know that any power I possess comes from God Almighty - period. Hence if my human voice possess such power and if my hair possesses such power, what is the purpose of the Holy Ghost? Apparently, I can enact power without it.

You don't see that, but that is what was expressed to me and how I processed the video clip. And, apparently, I am not the only person who got that from hearing the story relayed, being verified by the clip. If he didn't mean it that way, fine. I still feel the same way after discussing this ad nauseam.
And that's fine if you feel that way. But you cannot claim "According to Stoneking." That's dishonest since he did NOT say God is not the power and he did NOT say we don't need the Holy Ghost. You're the only one claiming this. Neither CC1 nor even Votive, in his attack on LS, claimed what you did.

Doesn't matter what your opinion of his statement may be. You can have your opinion, that's fine. You cannot mislead and dishonestly claim he said something which he did not say.

You should know this. I know you've crawled all over me before for suggesting you said something you didn't actually say. This is no different.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Doesn't matter what your opinion of his statement may be. You can have your opinion, that's fine. You cannot mislead and dishonestly claim he said something which he did not say.


PO, making a statement "according to Stoneking" makes it look like he said those things and therefore believes them.

[n david]

I guarantee you if PO were to make that claim to LS directly, he'd think she was crazy! Listen to any message and you'll hear Stoneking talk about the power of God, power of the Name of Jesus and power of the Holy Ghost. It's completely absurd to pretend he believes otherwise.

[n david]

PO, making a statement "according to Stoneking" makes it look like he said those things and therefore believes them.
Right. :thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

And that's fine if you feel that way. But you cannot claim "According to Stoneking." That's dishonest since he did NOT say God is not the power and he did NOT say we don't need the Holy Ghost. You're the only one claiming this. Neither CC1 nor even Votive, in his attack on LS, claimed what you did.

Doesn't matter what your opinion of his statement may be. You can have your opinion, that's fine. You cannot mislead and dishonestly claim he said something which he did not say.

You should know this. I know you've crawled all over me before for suggesting you said something you didn't actually say. This is no different.

PO, making a statement "according to Stoneking" makes it look like he said those things and therefore believes them.

You are both right. I shouldn't have worded it that way. I do apologize for that.

Even though the statement comes across as focusing more on us than God, IMO, I should have worded that better.

Anyway, I will say once again that I didn't have to study anything about my voice to know and understand that any power I possess comes from God alone. Amen!

[Evang.Benincasa]

You are both right. I shouldn't have worded it that way. I do apologize for that.

Even though the statement comes across as focusing more on us than God, IMO, I should have worded that better.

Anyway, I will say once again that I didn't have to study anything about my voice to know and understand that any power I possess comes from God alone. Amen!

Sis, we can't have it both ways.

"According to" so and so means it is so and so's statement.

"The statement comes across as" means it is our perception of the statement.

[Pressing-On]

Sis, we can't have it both ways.

"According to" so and so means it is so and so's statement.

"The statement comes across as" means it is our perception of the statement.

And I said that I shouldn't have used "according to" in describing my perception of the statement.

[Evang.Benincasa]

And I said that I shouldn't have used "according to" in describing my perception of the statement.

I totally understand sister, WE have all worded our sentences incorrectly one time or another. :)

[Sarah]

I guarantee you if PO were to make that claim to LS directly, he'd think she was crazy! Listen to any message and you'll hear Stoneking talk about the power of God, power of the Name of Jesus and power of the Holy Ghost. It's completely absurd to pretend he believes otherwise.

To know Bro Stoneking personally, is to know that he lives and breathes for Jesus Christ...

[Servant's <3]

To know Bro Stoneking personally, is to know that he lives and breathes for Jesus Christ...

Indeed. :thumbsup

[n david]

To know Bro Stoneking personally, is to know that he lives and breathes for Jesus Christ...

:thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

To know Bro Stoneking personally, is to know that he lives and breathes for Jesus Christ...

I don't doubt that. Someone posted, although I couldn't find it, that he is a great gentleman. I think that he probably is.

[votivesoul]

Wrong. Jesus commanded His disciples to teach all nations everything He commanded them. The "everything" includes Luke 9 where He sent the twelve to heal and preach the kingdom, and Luke 10 where He sent out the seventy to do the same.

If Luke 9 and 10 are a part of what Jesus wants us to do as believers, then we are unfaithful to His instructions and are woefully insufficient in even coming close to doing what He commanded the 12 then the 70 to do, respectively. Context!

Luke 9:1,

1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

I've never heard of any minister of the Gospel taking nothing for their journey when they go to start a new work, or travel overseas, or even to preach at another established church.

In fact, the first thing a man of God does when he's ready to go out and begin His ministry, is to acquire funds, especially if he is from an organization.

That is contrary to what Jesus told the Twelve to do. So why aren't we incorporating this teaching as part of the Great Commission to saints today?

Jesus said basically the same thing to the Seventy, as well. So where's the follow through? Why aren't we obeying this? Oh, we are everyone of us supposed to have the signs and wonders of Luke 9 and 10, but we don't actually have to do anything Jesus required of the Twelve or Seventy as part of receiving the authority to do the signs and wonders?

You have to note the very first thing Jesus did, before He ever sent them out. It reads He gave them the power/authority. It was given to those men, at that time. To say that just because He did it then, that it's now an automatic for everyone, isn't rightly dividing the Word. God permitted Elijah to call down fire from heaven, and James and John wanted the ability to do likewise, and Jesus wouldn't let them (i.e. He didn't just randomly authorize the use of His power to His disciples just because they wanted it).

He is the same yesterday, today, and for ever. He doesn't just randomly authorize the use of His power to His disciples just because we want it. It has to be granted. That's why the Gifts of the Spirit are called charismata, that is, special graces given to them which are spiritual, that otherwise would not be available to them if not given by grace according to the will of God.

"These signs shall follow them that believe..."

How many funerals have you been to in the church? How many people needed surgery when they wanted a healing? How many church kids everyday get the flu, or a cold, or whatever?

Does God heal? Yes! All the time? No. So, to sit here and say (as you do below and imply here) that it's God's will to heal 100% of the time for "them that believe" means you are indirectly accusing every single person who didn't get healed, and those who died of sickness and disease of not being one of "them that believe".

You have to come to grips with reality. How many people in this country in the Apostolic church have raised the dead since 1914-15?

I've heard of four: Nathaniel Urshan, Michael Papp, whoever prayed for Brother Stoneking, and my dad.

People laid the sick in the streets so Simon Peter's shadow could fall upon them and heal them.

Paul went to Malta and it reads very clearly in Acts "he healed everyone" on the island who was sick. Jesus healed them all, as the Gospels proclaim.

I'm sick and tired of ministers and people like you who have allowed the devil to deceive them into believe the miraculous either doesn't happen or is only for a selected few.

Sure, blame the devil and those who walk in reality for the reason the church can't seem to pull a miracle out of God's gifts. The reality is, we preach healings, but the best we often hear about is non-descript pains going away during the hype of a revival that come back the next day.

Are there real healings? Yes! Does it happen? Yes! But the fake and the false and the willingness to cover it up and pretend like so and so is some great healer and be in awe of him when all he did was claim it, is a shame.

A guy walks into an evening service in his construction uniform and a preacher gets a word of knowledge that his knees are hurting him, and it's like, really?

How about the preacher getting a word of knowledge like "Brother, God is telling me that you have spinal stenosis in your lumbar, and acute facetogenic pain from an injury you received in a car accident when you were seventeen"?

God could open a hole in the wall for Ezekiel to see every sin the priests in the temple were committing in real time, but can't speak this specifically to New Testament prophets?

Can He? Yes! Has He? Yes, but not to all who claim "God is telling me". The proof is in the pudding. I read Ferd's testimony of Brother Bustard revealing the situation regarding his concussion and the healing received.

That's real! But so many are willing to fake it until they make it to make up for not being able to deliver the goods during a revival. That's the real faith killer in the church: those who make promises to God's people with a Thus Saith The Lord on their lips when God didn't really say.

And guess what? It's not wrong to call bogus bogus.

The gifts of the spirit are available to anyone who is baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost...

Available? Yes. Given to all in all their fullness to everyone who has received the Holy Spirit? No, that is contrary to the testimony of Scripture. God gives them at His discretion, assigning here, withholding here, without consulting us or getting our approval. If God hasn't given someone the Gift of Diverse Tongues, they are NEVER going to speak a diverse tongue to the church, no matter how much they received the Holy Spirit back when, or how faithful they are, or how anointed in any other way.

Wrong. It does not hinge on apostleship...Jesus said it was for anyone who believes. A believer should see these things happening.

Scripture testifies against you. Repeatedly, the words "signs", "wonders", "diverse miracles", and even "gifts of the Spirit" are used in conjunction with Apostles. You are arguing with the received testimony of Luke in Acts, Paul in his letters, and the author of Hebrews.

We never read the phrase "the signs of a pastor were done among you", or "and many signs and wonders were done by the church" or "by the hands of the saints were many signs and wonders wrought". It just isn't there, no matter how hard we might wish it to be.

If the Holy Spirit inspired the text to mention apostles ONLY with signs and wonders and diverse miracles, then we need to accept that.

I don't know why some aren't healed. I'm with Billy Cole, who believed that everyone should be healed and no believer should die from sickness or disease.

Then we aren't supposed to die? We're all just supposed to go on living and die of "natural causes", as if there is such a thing? Why aren't some healed? It's because God refused to heal!

Deuteronomy 32:39,

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

If God wants to wound someone and not heal them, you can't deliver yourself out of His hands.

It's interesting you would accept Peter being given the key, but refuse to accept Jesus' commission to the disciples to go teach all nations everything they were commanded, including to preach and heal.

Who was Jesus talking to when He gave the Great Commission? He was seen by more than 500 brethren before He ascended to heaven. Of that number only about 120 obeyed Him and received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Directly after that, as Luke records, the only people in Acts who did signs and wonders were the apostles. So the "confirming the Word with signs follow" was to do what? Confirm the Word of the Apostles, who were commissioned to preach the Gospel and teach all nations. So who was Jesus "working with", as it reads at the end of Mark? The small number of men who were actually trained by Him for 3.5 years.

In Acts 9, because of the persecution, it reads that everyone but the apostles fled Jerusalem, and they went preaching everywhere, but there is no record of signs and wonders following them. Why not?

And if you say, as you did, that it's because the book is called the Acts of the Apostles, just remember that Acts doesn't have an inspired name. It could just as easily be called The Acts of Jesus Christ or the Operation of the Holy Spirit in the Early Church, or whatever. There is no divine name upon the book.

Yes, it's about the apostles, but why? Because they were the emissaries of Christ. They were the ones granted the right to bind and loose, to issue commands in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. They, as Paul wrote, stood in Christ's stead (2 Corinthians 5:20) as His appointed representatives to the world to found the church, along with prophets, for the city of God.

Can you bind and loose? Can I? Who here among us at AFF has the right to say "In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I command you..."?

We might say, but does it means it's so just for the saying?

Our names may be in the book of life, but they aren't on the foundational walls of New Jerusalem.

...you're posting false doctrine yourself!

False to you, but true to the Word of God. If not, exegete everything I have said and prove it. You are more than willing to make assertion and assertion and roll your eyes at me about half of what I've written, and little else.

Take the verses I have listed here and show me another way. I will read and receive from you, if you care to try.

Are they allowed in your upper class club of Apostles with the cool gifts?

The Apostles were slaves appointed unto death, the offscouring of the world, chosen to be last, martyred all. To make light of them and their calling and function in the Body to say they were in some "upper class" is a reproach. I am not saying anything about them the Bible doesn't say. If you don't like the testimony of Scripture about the Holy Apostles of Jesus Christ, take it up with Him.

Bottom line is you believe in a spiritual upper and lower class, that God only gives gifts to certain, select men.

I guess there's no point in caring to read any of the words Christ's apostle wrote, since they aren't all that important. No reason to be Apostolic, even.

God does the calling, the electing, the equipping. If He raises up one and puts another down, it's His right.

God gives and He takes away. No point bemoaning against Him for not giving to some what He gives to others. We all are going to share in the same inheritance with the saints in light. That is enough for me. God doesn't have to use me one bit to do anything He doesn't want to use me to do. I am fine with that. Are you?

[votivesoul]

Regarding Brother Stoneking,

The fact that you care more about what I say about him here, when I am a faceless nobody from nowhere, with no credentials in an organization, no world famous ministry, no nothing, AND YOU DON'T CARE that Brother Stoneking lied to 20,000 saints of God about the human voice shredding air molecules, is telling.

Why do I say it was an act? Because:

1.) It's not true, scientifically
2.) He nonetheless says it is, and continues to use it and has done so for years
3.) He claims he "found out" about it recently and yet not a single website (besides this one) in all of google-dom has a single reference to the idea
4.) That other preachers use it, too
5.) That he obviously knew where he was going with the whole deal from the beginning, else why go there and bring it up?
6.) That it's easy and convenient for anyone to say "God spoke to me" even though the testimony of one man is not true
7. To subjectively tell an audience something is happening in the spirit realm, even though it can't be proven Scripturally
8. That the sure word of prophecy is founded in the testimony of Scripture and not in spiritual experiences, even if the experience is seeing Jesus transfigured and hearing an audible voice from God
9. That he has been a camp, convention, crusade, and conference speaker for decades and most assuredly knows what works to get the response and results expected
10. That he can be perfectly imitated, not just in voice, but in physical mannerisms and common quotations
11. And a myriad of other reasons, none of which anyone has to believe me about.

At a camp I attended, he told a story about how he was witnessing to a Catholic lady. He told us about 30 minutes had gone by and she wasn't receiving what he said, so, he told the camp what he told her:

"Lady, if Mary was alive to day, she'd lay her hands on your ugly (my wife thinks he said "stupid") head and pray you through to the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues!"

The crowd went nuts! You don't think he knew they would? Why tell the story if it wasn't intended to excite and energize the crowd?

That same camp he told everyone to stop spending time with sinners as friends, because, and I quote "If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas". Again the crowd when wild.

We preach not ourselves, Church. And even if we need to share a portion of our testimony to help someone receive the Gospel, we don't say things like that. We are to walk circumspectly, to speak the truth in love. Mocking Catholic sinners and etc. isn't love, no matter how much truth we might think is in the words.

[votivesoul]

Lastly, if there isn't something special about apostles and the signs and wonders God gives them to do, why is it that every camp and conference Brother Stoneking is at where he is the main or only speaker, the only person many people want to pray for them during altar call is Brother Stoneking?

Are they looking at him as some upper class apostle? The unlicensed nobody in the altar call isn't good enough, I guess. Talk about "lower class saints".

In Bartlett, IL, a lady had a heart attack in the middle of his sermon, and the whole church prayed, but everyone believed it was Lee Stoneking that God used to heal her. Maybe he's an apostle?

[Esaias]

Votive, if the instructions to the twelve and the seventy were only for the twelve and the seventy, then doesn't that mean the "Great Commission" is likewise restricted to that first apostolic group?

[votivesoul]

Votive, if the instructions to the twelve and the seventy were only for the twelve and the seventy, then doesn't that mean the "Great Commission" is likewise restricted to that first apostolic group?

Good question. The answer is "no", as I understand it, for the following reasons:

1.) The Twelve and the Seventy situation in the Gospels was a special commissioning restricted to Christ's operational ministry prior to the cross. Jesus ordered them to only go to the lost nation of Israel, and no one else. This is not the case for the Great Commission.

2.) When the Lord sent the Twelve and the Seventy, it was they alone who were commissioned, i.e. no other disciples from the pool of several hundred were authorized to go on the mission.

In the Great Commission, every disciple present on the mountain top (all 500+) were told the same thing, without restrictions.

3.) Prior to Pentecost, the only portion of the Five-fold ministry in existence among the disciples was apostle and evangelist. Post-Pentecost, the other three portions were established by the Lord. And since all five ministries are called by grace to perfect the saints for the work of the ministry, which includes displaying the Gospel of Christ to the world, then by extension, the whole church, when she comes into perfection, is responsible to Christ for fulfilling that purpose. To grow up into the Head and achieve the stature of the fullness of Christ is to live out the Great Commission as One Body, meaning all are required to be involved in displaying Christ to the lost and inviting them to come and be a part of His kingdom.

4.) Paul gave instructions about finding faithful men, and in the finding, commissioning them to pass on the Word of God as it had been received. This includes the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Gospel.

5.) If it was only for the Twelve and then Seventy, once they died, the church would have died, too.

6.) There are still supposed to be Apostles (and Prophets) today, who by extension, receive the same commission, grace, and anointing to be the Lord's specific ambassadors to the world, just as those early Twelve and Seventy.

Since Apostles are to be set first in the church, it is predominately their responsibility to ensure the Great Commission is being fulfilled. Much hinges on them and their work. Some are apostles and no one realizes it. Some say they are and they are not, sincerely mistaken/a victim of wishful thinking. Others are intentionally false, as Paul warned in 2 Corinthians 11.

7.) Since the Gospel is or is supposed to be perpetuated, the only way to do that is if, generation after generation, members of the Body continue to receive the commission to preach the Gospel. In Acts 6, deacons were commissioned to help the church. Paul wrote the deacons who succeed in their mission gain great boldness in the faith. They become qualified to speak freely and openly about believing and receiving Jesus.

__________________________________________________ _______________

There are, of course, novices and people who do harm to the Church and to Christ's reputation when they attempt to undertake the Great Commission. They may not be ready, have been improperly trained and/or exhorted, or haven't personally received a commissioning from the Lord to partake in the dissemination of the Gospel and the doctrines of Christ.

If a brother or sister is foundation-less and has no real grasp on what they are saying, they need to be equipped. Until they are equipped to faithfully relay the message of salvation, it may be appropriate to advise a withdrawal from such endeavors until they have been better perfected.

But the call is still upon them, nonetheless.

[votivesoul]

Two more:

8. Christ has an unchangeable priesthood. Ours is likewise unchangeable and is the same for everyone in the New Covenant.

9. The consummation of the Church Age hasn't occurred.

[votivesoul]

Regarding Brother Stoneking,

The fact that you care more about what I say about him here, when I am a faceless nobody from nowhere, with no credentials in an organization, no world famous ministry, no nothing, AND YOU DON'T CARE that Brother Stoneking lied to 20,000 saints of God about the human voice shredding air molecules, is telling.

Why do I say it was an act? Because:

1.) It's not true, scientifically
2.) He nonetheless says it is, and continues to use it and has done so for years
3.) He claims he "found out" about it recently and yet not a single website (besides this one) in all of google-dom has a single reference to the idea
4.) That other preachers use it, too
5.) That he obviously knew where he was going with the whole deal from the beginning, else why go there and bring it up?
6.) That it's easy and convenient for anyone to say "God spoke to me" even though the testimony of one man is not true
7. To subjectively tell an audience something is happening in the spirit realm, even though it can't be proven Scripturally
8. That the sure word of prophecy is founded in the testimony of Scripture and not in spiritual experiences, even if the experience is seeing Jesus transfigured and hearing an audible voice from God
9. That he has been a camp, convention, crusade, and conference speaker for decades and most assuredly knows what works to get the response and results expected
10. That he can be perfectly imitated, not just in voice, but in physical mannerisms and common quotations
11. And a myriad of other reasons, none of which anyone has to believe me about.

At a camp I attended, he told a story about how he was witnessing to a Catholic lady. He told us about 30 minutes had gone by and she wasn't receiving what he said, so, he told the camp what he told her:

"Lady, if Mary was alive to day, she'd lay her hands on your ugly (my wife thinks he said "stupid") head and pray you through to the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues!"

The crowd went nuts! You don't think he knew they would? Why tell the story if it wasn't intended to excite and energize the crowd?

That same camp he told everyone to stop spending time with sinners as friends, because, and I quote "If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas". Again the crowd when wild.

We preach not ourselves, Church. And even if we need to share a portion of our testimony to help someone receive the Gospel, we don't say things like that. We are to walk circumspectly, to speak the truth in love. Mocking Catholic sinners and etc. isn't love, no matter how much truth we might think is in the words.

I want to add/clarify:

I do not think, and did not intend in anything I've so far written, to mean that I think Brother Stoneking was willingly and knowingly pretending and attempting to pull one over on anyone, like some shyster or con-artist.

I don't doubt his sincerity, his love for God or God's people, and that He, in any given moment in time while preaching, is trying his utmost to serve the Lord and represent Him well. I give him that. I give that to most and probably almost all.

That isn't the issue. I have not and will not call him a false prophet, or even put the word false next to his name, as, for me, false speaks to the intentional character of a person's heart. There is intentional deception in the heart of a person who is false.

A person who is mistaken is false in their mistake, but that's not a measure of their inward person, just a measure of what they know or understand.

So when I say things like "an act", or etc. I don't mean as a pretense, I mean it as a routine that he and many others fall into, almost a schtick, if you will, that he and many others bring to a pulpit most every time he (and others) preach.

It goes beyond quirks and habits, and personality traits. Many of these convention, camp, and conference preachers preach the same sermon on a circuit from place to place. They are canned and are designed to do the same thing everywhere the sermon is preached.

Like it or not, that is an act. It's showmanship. But when a true falsehood is introduced into that, in order to induce God's people into doing something, that's when I speak up, at least here.

I can't personally contact him, unless someone has and will give me his phone number (and that's beside the point). This is an open forum intended for discussion, even if occasionally it's about real people.

We all have to--WE HAVE TO--make judgment calls about all we see and here in the movement, in the church. It's not good to take everything at face value or to lay everything at the Lord's feet and say, "Yup, from God".

If anyone wants to know by what rubric I measure and discern if something or someone is legit, I ask, by what rubric do you measure and/or discern if something or someone is legit?

If I have sincere doubts and can adequately substantiate those doubts into facts, as I have been able to do, then as unpalatable as it may be, and as much as this probably isn't helping some, hopefully it's still helping.

How did the Ephesians in Revelation 2 judge the people claiming to be Apostles and find them false and accuse them of being liars? It had to have been handled some way. A major risk was being taken, if they were wrong. And yet, the Lord commended them for doing it.

I attempt to evaluate and do something somewhat similar, for at least one incident, and for some, (or at least one) I'm swimming with satanists and atheists.

Well, then, I hope no one ever, not even once, makes a judgment call against anything any minister ever says or does, and shares it*, of all things, because then, you might just end up sitting where I'm at.

(*Next time Jeff Arnold calls someone an idiot, remember these words. [Yeah, I read that whole post and I remember who said what.])

[n david]

:ohplease

Not going to bother with a long response to this drivel.

You're wrong on Luke 9 and 10 and pretty much everything else.

Also, it must be a miserable, small, pathetic life you live, believing as you do. I mean, were I to believe as you, I'd just burn my Bible, sit home and watch football on Thursdays and Sundays. I mean, why bother? If you don't believe what Jesus said is true, then the whole Bible is a lie.

Good day.

[n david]

Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered.

People like Votive have allowed tradition to nullify the word of God and make it of non effect.

Again, I'll throw my Bible in a shredder and give up my beliefs if what I read and believe isn't true.

[n david]

I'm not going to let you re-write history and try to back off what you said yesterday. I didn't want to respond, because yesterday your dumb post put me in a foul mood. But I'm not going to let you pretend you didn't post what you did.

I want to add/clarify:

I do not think, and did not intend in anything I've so far written, to mean that I think Brother Stoneking was willingly and knowingly pretending and attempting to pull one over on anyone, like some shyster or con-artist.
You said it was a stage act. You claimed God didn't speak to him. You can't have it both ways man.

YOU said:
to pass this off as a "fresh word from the Lord" isn't honest. This appears to have been done deliberately.


Care to "clarify" your clarification? First you say he wasn't being honest and that he was deliberately dishonest, then you claim you didn't write anything that Stoneking was willingly and knowingly dishonest.

I don't doubt his sincerity, his love for God or God's people, and that He, in any given moment in time while preaching, is trying his utmost to serve the Lord and represent Him well. I give him that. I give that to most and probably almost all.
You called him a LIAR and a fraud. Now you claim not to doubt his sincerity? What a load of tripe!

That isn't the issue. I have not and will not call him a false prophet, or even put the word false next to his name, as, for me, false speaks to the intentional character of a person's heart. There is intentional deception in the heart of a person who is false.
But you DID call him a liar, fraud and said he didn't really hear from God. You wrote a long rant about how he intentionally lied and deceived. Now you claim you didn't and won't call him false?


(*Next time Jeff Arnold calls someone an idiot, remember these words. [Yeah, I read that whole post and I remember who said what.])
Apples and bowling balls. Arnold publicly and personally attacked another minister. He was wrong and apologized for what he said. Pray, tell me, where did LS do anything similar to this? Go kick rocks.

[Evang.Benincasa]

If Luke 9 and 10 are a part of what Jesus wants us to do as believers,

VS, are you saying that the gifts are only to the ministry, apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Regarding Brother Stoneking,

The fact that you care more about what I say about him here, when I am a faceless nobody from nowhere, with no credentials in an organization, no world famous ministry, no nothing, AND YOU DON'T CARE THAT BROTHER STONEKING LIED to 20,000 saints of God about the human voice shredding air molecules, is telling.



I want to add/clarify:

I do not think, and did not intend in anything I've so far written, to mean that I think Brother Stoneking was WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY PRETENDING and attempting TO PULL ONE OVER on anyone, like some shyster or CON-ARTIST.

I don't doubt his sincerity, his love for God or God's people, and that He, in any given moment in time while preaching, is trying his utmost to serve the Lord and represent Him well. I give him that. I give that to most and probably almost all.

That isn't the issue. I have not and will NOT call him a false prophet, or even put the word false next to his name, as, for me, FALSE speaks to the intentional character of a person's heart. There is intentional deception in the heart of a person who is false.

A person who is MISTAKEN is false in their mistake, but that's not a measure of their inward person, just a measure of what they know or understand.

So when I say things like "an act", or etc. I don't mean as a pretense, I mean it as a routine that he and many others fall into, almost a schtick, if you will, that he and many others bring to a pulpit most every time he (and others) preach.

VS, so is Brother Stoneking a liar, or is he mistaken concerning his statement? Your two posts are saying two different things? Is your clarification post trying to correct the statement you made in the previous post where you call Brother Stoneking a liar?

[Pressing-On]

What Is Sound?

All sounds are vibrations traveling through the air as sound waves. Sound waves are caused by the vibrations of objects and radiate outward from their source in all directions.A vibrating object compresses the surrounding air molecules (squeezing them closer together) and then rarefies them (pulling them farther apart). Although the fluctuations in air pressure travel outward from the object, the air molecules themselves stay in the same average position.

http://documentation.apple.com/en/soundtrackpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=B%26section=1%26tasks=true

[n david]

What Is Sound?

All sounds are vibrations traveling through the air as sound waves. Sound waves are caused by the vibrations of objects and radiate outward from their source in all directions.A vibrating object compresses the surrounding air molecules (squeezing them closer together) and then rarefies them (pulling them farther apart). Although the fluctuations in air pressure travel outward from the object, the air molecules themselves stay in the same average position.

http://documentation.apple.com/en/soundtrackpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=B%26section=1%26tasks=true
You still on your crusade with this?

Good grief.

[Pressing-On]

You still on your crusade with this?

Good grief.
Why did you delete my sentence that was in bold and underlined? You don't want to focus on it?

David, You always rush to verify statements made. You hunted and waited until you got something on JA. Do that with this statement. Give me proof that what he said is true. That our "voices shred air molecules." This article I linked says they stay in their average position.

That is what votivesoul is asking from you - proof.

You want me to teach this? Give me proof that there is a substantive argument to be made in favor of the statement.

Get 'er done, David. :dogpat :heeheehee

[n david]

Why did you delete my sentence that was in bold and underlined? You don't want to focus on it?
I used an app on my phone to reply to that post. Your sentence was not edited by me in any way. It's still there. It wasn't deleted.

David, You always rush to verify statements made. You hunted and waited until you got something on JA. Do that with this statement.
I "hunted and waited?" Absolutely not! I did and still do like JA and am blessed by his messages. When someone posted what he said at BOTT, I responded to it. It was a stupid thing to do. He apologized for it. We've moved on. I did NOT "hunt and wait" for anything. Something was posted and I responded directly.

Give me proof that what he said is true. That our "voices shred air molecules." This article I linked says they stay in their average position.
I've read articles saying sound waves disrupt air molecules. Different scientists and articles will give different answers. Bottom line, and the point of the example is that sound waves disrupt air molecules.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/Lesson-1/Sound-is-a-Pressure-Wave

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_displacement


That is what votivesoul is asking from you - proof.
He didn't ask for anything. I may have missed it in his long posts, but I didn't see any request for proof. I saw a lot of accusations that Stoneking is a liar and a fraud. If I'm wrong, please post it.

You want me to teach this? Give me proof that there is a substantive argument to be made in favor of the statement.

Get 'er done, David. :dogpat :heeheehee
I don't care if you teach it or not. It's an example. I find it incredibly mind boggling that so much is being made over this example. Do you critique your pastor's (or anyone else's) examples with the same fervor as this? Again, as evidenced by your reference to Stoneking's HMH, this is more about Stoneking than just the example which he gave.

[Pressing-On]

I used an app on my phone to reply to that post. Your sentence was not edited by me in any way. It's still there. It wasn't deleted.
Okay, I stand corrected. :thumbsup


I "hunted and waited?" Absolutely not! I did and still do like JA and am blessed by his messages. When someone posted what he said at BOTT, I responded to it. It was a stupid thing to do. He apologized for it. We've moved on. I did NOT "hunt and wait" for anything. Something was posted and I responded directly.

I've read articles saying sound waves disrupt air molecules. Different scientists and articles will give different answers. Bottom line, and the point of the example is that sound waves disrupt air molecules.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/Lesson-1/Sound-is-a-Pressure-Wave

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_displacement

He didn't ask for anything. I may have missed it in his long posts, but I didn't see any request for proof. I saw a lot of accusations that Stoneking is a liar and a fraud. If I'm wrong, please post it.

I don't care if you teach it or not. It's an example. I find it incredibly mind boggling that so much is being made over this example. Do you critic your pastor's (or anyone else's) examples with the same fervor as this? Again, as evidenced by your reference to Stoneking's HMH, this is more about Stoneking than just the example which he gave.

Your articles prove the same point - "air molecules themselves stay in the same average position."

His "example" was presented as a "fact".

[votivesoul]

VS, so is Brother Stoneking a liar, or is he mistaken concerning his statement? Your two posts are saying two different things? Is your clarification post trying to correct the statement you made in the previous post where you call Brother Stoneking a liar?

Hi, EB

I think a person can be both lying and mistaken at the same time. How?

If a person is wrong about a fact, they are mistaken. Once, however, they perpetuate the mistake as truth, they are, even if unintentionally, or without malicious motive, lying. Lying to whom?

To the truth of the fact, and then, by extension, to the audience who is on the receiving end of the inaccurate information.

The whole air molecule thing is a mistake. It is inaccurate. It is not factual. To believe it is a mistake. So the audience who heard it that night, if they believed it, made a mistake. This doesn't mean they have lied.

But if they take that mistake, and run with it and repeat to others, never investigating the validity of the claim, then I think they become liars.

So wherever Brother Stoneking heard it from (and as far as I can find there is no available source anywhere on the internet), was the beginning of the lie. For him to have believed it was simply a mistake on his part.

But to preach it as true, and to have been doing so for half a decade or longer without ever checking into it, turns the mistake into a lie.

This doesn't mean Brother Stoneking sat down one day, fabricated the whole shredding air molecules thing in his mind, and then decided to make use of this fabrication with an intent to deceive. He himself has been duped. But now, he's passing that duplicity onto others, even if unknowingly. That's where the lie comes in.

And people who tell lies are?

And as I wrote somewhere above, the testimony of one man is not true, according to Jesus. And if not true, then what is it, or rather, how should be taken? As unreliable, meaning one should put no weight upon it, meaning it is to be treated as a lie until it can be proven.

Brother Stoneking said God spoke to him. That is the testimony of one man. It is unreliable and no one has to receive it. Everything after that was subjective and un-verifiable, again the testimony of one man (i.e. "It's happening...!").

And worse, it ALL culminated, not in a doxology to God for what He had done in the shout, but with a lie about the human voice.

So I ask, why would God tell someone something and want them to relay it if the telling of what God said was going to culminate into a mass deception?

No lie is of the truth, right?

We can argue motives all day. I don't think Brother Stoneking's motives were evil or that his heart was in a place of falsehood, even though a falsehood was shared, and by direct inference, was, regardless of what anyone has to say contrariwise, attributed to God.

The human voice shreds air molecules. The devil is the prince of the power of the "air". When you shout, your are tearing his kingdom down. And oh, by the way, God told me He wants you to shout right now so He can deliver you.

If you reverse the order as I have done above, it comes to the same thing: God allegedly wanted them all to shout because the human voice shreds air molecules, thus destroying the prince of the power of the air's kingdom.

This was laid at God's doorstep, no matter what anyone says. And since many of the people, especially the youth, are programmed to take everything a preacher says as Gospel, how many people all over the movement now believe a lie?

About as many as believe a woman's hair has glory in it to the do the miraculous?

[votivesoul]

VS, are you saying that the gifts are only to the ministry, apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers?

No. They are given to everyone to profit withal. The whole Body is to be perfected for the work of the ministry, by the five-fold ministry. As perfection increases in the life of a believer, the gifts of the Spirit and of their administration naturally, according to God's will, unfold in a person's life.

This may be only after weeks in the faith. Or less, perhaps. Some times God doesn't visit a person with a special gifting until years after their conversion.

There is no special class or elite status in the Body. But we think there is, hence why people covet the ministry in order to self-validate. When I was fairly new in the Lord, and would show up somewhere in a suit, someone I didn't know always asked me if I was a minister, as in a licensed man.

To be a minister as the movement understands it is to hold a special place just for being a part of an organization. Rather, all members of the Body are called to be servants.

But each member has their part to play, and can't get outside of their measure, until God promotes. And sometimes, God sovereignly doesn't promote a person into a gift or ministry, no matter how badly someone wants to be or have something from Him.

And so, some fervently pray and fast and long to see the miraculous happen through them, and it doesn't. I am saying the "fault" isn't on them for some secret reason, as some claim (not enough faith, etc.). Rather, the onus is on God to, by grace and His favor, empower or not.

The fact that He doesn't empower all to everything is not a mark against Him or us, or against the Word. Why some can't accept that is beyond me.

[votivesoul]

Not that anyone has to, but please pay attention when I use words like "appear" or "seems", and etc. I intentionally use them to express a level of uncertainty, as in something I cannot prove. So to say Brother Stoneking appeared to do something deliberately is not a de facto claim that he did; merely that it appeared to me as though he did.

[votivesoul]

Regarding Jeff Arnold.

He did what Paul did to Peter, publicly accused a brother of being wrong and into leading others into that wrongness, in front of the whole church. He could have been more gentle, but he performed an apostolic duty, and he did it more Biblically than most have the guts or (ability) to do it.

And all he got for it was a stupid T-Shirt that says "Repent and don't come back".

When Paul did the same thing to Peter in front of the disciples who came from James, while we don't know exactly how Peter responded in the moment, we know that years later he called Paul his beloved brother.

Standing in someone's way to keep them from diving off a cliff is love. Many in the movement are standing at the edge, believing all sorts of things that aren't true just because a preacher they admire said it. Get in their way they and they won't abide it.

I have no major influence or network to stand in the way of all the people in our movement that have believed the air molecule thing, AND ARE READY TO JUMP, but I do have this message board.

It's just not seen as an act of love. It's seen as slanderous tripe.

[n david]

It's a great day today. I'm going to keep looking at the palm trees and blue sky while I type this.

I believe God speaks to men and women today. I have heard many ministers say that God has spoken to them. Jeff Arnold, Anthony Mangun, Billy Cole, my own father and the list goes on. I believe God has spoken to me at times as well, though I don't say such because of people like the one here who comes along after a minister speaks and will dissect and nit pick at every word spoken, then claim God really didn't speak to him, that what he's saying is a lie and an act, etc.

It really is a gorgeous day here in Tempe, AZ!

I also believe Lee Stoneking sincerely loves God and would not intentionally or blatantly lie. Thus, I believe it when Lee Stoneking says God spoke to him and told him that He wanted to free people from fear and inhibition. Stoneking did NOT say God told him about molecular displacement from sound waves. To claim otherwise is a lie in itself.

I'm not omniscient, nor am I God. No one here is. And for one here to pretend he knows the thoughts, intents and whether or not God speaks to certain ministers is just maniacally absurd. This person's posts are all pride and arrogance. He, not Stoneking, knows whether God truly spoke to Stoneking or not.

Hey, omniscient one, how many fingers am I holding up?

Yeah, it's a beautiful day outside. Too bad I'm stuck inside this office.

[votivesoul]

n_david, I'm not angry with you, or anyone, or even Brother Stoneking. I have obviously disturbed your peace and made life hard for you with my comments.

Take away whatever validity they have or don't have, it still means I have offended you. We are called to peace. Unity is more important than being right all the time. Please forgive me for instigating your ire. I apologize.

[Pressing-On]

Stoneking did NOT say God told him about molecular displacement from sound waves. To claim otherwise is a lie in itself..
This actually makes no sense. Unless he is using this claim to solidify his point, biblically, why include it? Your "example" excuse is pretty weak.

Along with what else he said, it comes across as though he believes his point is biblically sound.

I believe we remember Segraves having to put out an article in the Herald after the magic hair business - "A Plea for Caution". It might be a good idea to write part two.

[n david]

This actually makes no sense. Unless he is using this claim to solidify his point, biblically, why include it? Your "example" excuse is pretty weak.

Along with what else he said, it comes across as though he believes his point is biblically sound.

I believe we remember Segraves having to put out an article in the Herald after the magic hair business - "A Plea for Caution". It might be a good idea to write part two.
I'm sorry, what part of God did not tell him this is not being understood? He could have preached the whole Bible, and yet that wasn't what God told him. He clearly said what God told him...and then he said what HE read.

So again, and it does make sense, God did NOT tell Stoneking about sound waves causing molecular displacement. The other poster claims God would not tell someone a lie or something which is untrue; ergo, Stoneking lied by claiming God spoke to him. That is not correct. Refer back to the video or transcript.

[Pressing-On]

I'm sorry, what part of God did not tell him this is not being understood? He could have preached the whole Bible, and yet that wasn't what God told him. He clearly said what God told him...and then he said what HE read.

So again, and it does make sense, God did NOT tell Stoneking about sound waves causing molecular displacement. The other poster claims God would not tell someone a lie or something which is untrue; ergo, Stoneking lied by claiming God spoke to him. That is not correct. Refer back to the video or transcript.

I am going to have to agree with votivesoul on this issue.

Enjoy your Palm trees.:thumbsup

[n david]

I am going to have to agree with votivesoul on this issue.

Enjoy your Palm trees.:thumbsup
A bit hypocritical, but not surprising. You defended JA from my posts condemning his attack on another minister; yet, you now defend with a poster who's attacked LS and called him a liar, a fraud, a stage act, etc.

This really is just about Stoneking with you. Were it JA or someone else, you would be all over the other poster's attack.

I will enjoy my palm trees, thank you. It's Friday and tomorrow is the first weekend of the college football season!

[Esaias]

I don't understand something. The Bible commands us to 'shout unto God with the voice of triumph.' So then, why does a group of believers need a preacher to tell them 'God just now told me if you will shout and let er rip RIGHT NOW, satan's kingdom will be damaged'? Why the need for 'shredding air molecules'? Why not 'hey, the BIBLE says to do this in worship, so let's JUST DO IT'?

Are we so far gone from the heart of God that we need something 'extra' just to get us to do what is plainly written already? If a person will not obey the WORD, but only if they are pushed and prodded and excited by extrabiblical 'encouragements' that do not actually give better understanding of the Word, but are instead SUBSITUTED for the Word... doesn't that imply that person is backslidden in heart, and will not obey God unless it pleases them or tickles their fancy?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hi, EB

I think a person can be both lying and mistaken at the same time. How?

If a person is wrong about a fact, they are mistaken. Once, however, they perpetuate the mistake as truth, they are, even if unintentionally, or without malicious motive, lying. Lying to whom?

Sorry, but lying is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive. perpetuating a mistake as truth is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive, but in the case we are discussing you would have to prove that Brother Stoneking was personally confronted and corrected, and produce evidence for this. Saying he is a liar would have to be proven that he is indeed saying his stories with the intent to deceive his listeners. Amen?


To the truth of the fact, and then, by extension, to the audience who is on the receiving end of the inaccurate information.

The whole air molecule thing is a mistake. It is inaccurate. It is not factual. To believe it is a mistake. So the audience who heard it that night, if they believed it, made a mistake. This doesn't mean they have lied.

But if they take that mistake, and run with it and repeat to others, never investigating the validity of the claim, then I think they become liars.

No, they don't become liars because they believe what they heard to be truth. They are also mistaken, as they continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence. If they are corrected, and shown the error with evidence, but continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence even after they were convinced otherwise, then they are working from some sort of agenda, and therefore lying to turn others to their agenda.


So wherever Brother Stoneking heard it from (and as far as I can find there is no available source anywhere on the internet), was the beginning of the lie.

No, not at all, because if Brother Stoneking took the information from some obscure source, old text book, magazine article, or didn't relay the information correctly, he is still mistaken, and therefore not knowingly trying to deceive his listeners.


For him to have believed it was simply a mistake on his part.

But to preach it as true, and to have been doing so for half a decade or longer without ever checking into it, turns the mistake into a lie.

No way, it is just never being corrected by a trusted peer or having the information proving otherwise. It is pure assumption to say Brother Stoneking preaching something for over decade required him to be corrected on it by someone else. Therefore it would be unprovable to call him a liar.


This doesn't mean Brother Stoneking sat down one day, fabricated the whole shredding air molecules thing in his mind, and then decided to make use of this fabrication with an intent to deceive. He himself has been duped. But now, he's passing that duplicity onto others, even if unknowingly. That's where the lie comes in.

Sad, because he is duped, unknowingly presenting something incorrectly. He still isn't setting out to deceive. Wrong is wrong, and can be made right, lying is leading someone to destruction and is punishable by a millstone. You stated yourself that Brother Stoneking wasn't a false prophet, so he cannot be lying. Correct?


And people who tell lies are?

And as I wrote somewhere above, the testimony of one man is not true, according to Jesus. And if not true, then what is it, or rather, how should be taken? As unreliable, meaning one should put no weight upon it, meaning it is to be treated as a lie until it can be proven.

Again, lying is an attempt to deceive the listeners you would have to overturn you statement that you didn't believe Brother Stoneking to be a false prophet and now call him a liar, if all misinformation is lying.


Brother Stoneking said God spoke to him. That is the testimony of one man. It is unreliable and no one has to receive it. Everything after that was subjective and un-verifiable, again the testimony of one man (i.e. "It's happening...!").

But you were shown by n david in what context Brother Stoneking said "God spoke to him" was framed. Now, you have added an accusation that Brother Stoneking is knowingly lying on God?


And worse, it ALL culminated, not in a doxology to God for what He had done in the shout, but with a lie about the human voice.

So I ask, why would God tell someone something and want them to relay it if the telling of what God said was going to culminate into a mass deception?

No lie is of the truth, right?

We can argue motives all day. I don't think Brother Stoneking's motives were evil or that his heart was in a place of falsehood, even though a falsehood was shared, and by direct inference, was, regardless of what anyone has to say contrariwise, attributed to God.

The human voice shreds air molecules. The devil is the prince of the power of the "air". When you shout, your are tearing his kingdom down. And oh, by the way, God told me He wants you to shout right now so He can deliver you.

If you reverse the order as I have done above, it comes to the same thing: God allegedly wanted them all to shout because the human voice shreds air molecules, thus destroying the prince of the power of the air's kingdom.

This was laid at God's doorstep, no matter what anyone says. And since many of the people, especially the youth, are programmed to take everything a preacher says as Gospel, how many people all over the movement now believe a lie?

About as many as believe a woman's hair has glory in it to the do the miraculous?

VS, I should of started answering your post from the bottom up, because you used a lot of type to call Brother Stoneking a liar and a false prophet.

Which is your prerogative, because that is the way you see it. I don't agree with Brother Stoneking's stories which cannot be verified and people who know me know my views on those things. My daughter enjoys Brother Stoneking, as she was taught to eat the fish and spit out the bones. Yet, when I was pointing something out that I notice in one of his stories, she was quick to tell me "Dad, he is a believer!" Now, I don't know how you might take this, but she didn't mean Acts 2:38 or the Apostolic message, but that Brother Stoneking believes in the miraculous, having faith beyond what is contrary around you.

She is 14 years old and Brother Stoneking hasn't hurt her, because she has a whole church family and parents who love truth, and teach her to observe responsibly. But most of all, she is taught that not everything someone says that is incorrect is a lie, but people make mistakes, and sometimes try to teach mistakes as truth. Sometimes you will bump into someone who believe that Indians had a god named YHVH, you don't call them a liar, you listen to their information, check it out, when you find out it is incorrect, you deal with it as being incorrect. You don't call the person a liar.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Enjoy your Palm trees.:thumbsup

What?

[Esaias]

Sorry, but lying is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive. perpetuating a mistake as truth is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive, but in the case we are discussing you would have to prove that Brother Stoneking was personally confronted and corrected, and produce evidence for this. Saying he is a liar would have to be proven that he is indeed saying his stories with the intent to deceive his listeners. Amen?



No, they don't become liars because they believe what they heard to be truth. They are also mistaken, as they continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence. If they are corrected, and shown the error with evidence, but continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence even after they were convinced otherwise, then they are working from some sort of agenda, and therefore lying to turn others to their agenda.



No, not at all, because if Brother Stoneking took the information from some obscure source, old text book, magazine article, or didn't relay the information correctly, he is still mistaken, and therefore not knowingly trying to deceive his listeners.



No way, it is just never being corrected by a trusted peer or having the information proving otherwise. It is pure assumption to say Brother Stoneking preaching something for over decade required him to be corrected on it by someone else. Therefore it would be unprovable to call him a liar.



Sad, because he is duped, unknowingly presenting something incorrectly. He still isn't setting out to deceive. Wrong is wrong, and can be made right, lying is leading someone to destruction and is punishable by a millstone. You stated yourself that Brother Stoneking wasn't a false prophet, so he cannot be lying. Correct?



Again, lying is an attempt to deceive the listeners you would have to overturn you statement that you didn't believe Brother Stoneking to be a false prophet and now call him a liar, if all misinformation is lying.



But you were shown by n david in what context Brother Stoneking said "God spoke to him" was framed. Now, you have added an accusation that Brother Stoneking is knowingly lying on God?



VS, I should of started answering your post from the bottom up, because you used a lot of type to call Brother Stoneking a liar and a false prophet.

Which is your prerogative, because that is the way you see it. I don't agree with Brother Stoneking's stories which cannot be verified and people who know me know my views on those things. My daughter enjoys Brother Stoneking, as she was taught to eat the fish and spit out the bones. Yet, when I was pointing something out that I notice in one of his stories, she was quick to tell me "Dad, he is a believer!" Now, I don't know how you might take this, but she didn't mean Acts 2:38 or the Apostolic message, but that Brother Stoneking believes in the miraculous, having faith beyond what is contrary around you.

She is 14 years old and Brother Stoneking hasn't hurt her, because she has a whole church family and parents who love truth, and teach her to observe responsibly. But most of all, she is taught that not everything someone says that is incorrect is a lie, but people make mistakes, and sometimes try to teach mistakes as truth. Sometimes you will bump into someone who believe that Indians had a god named YHVH, you don't call them a liar, you listen to their information, check it out, when you find out it is incorrect, you deal with it as being incorrect. You don't call the person a liar.

If a teacher is continually mistaken about things, wouldn't they need to be sat down and do some studying before being considered a teacher again?

[Evang.Benincasa]

If a teacher is continually mistaken about things, wouldn't they need to be sat down and do some studying before being considered a teacher again?

But of course my dear brother, but that would be done by his elders. :nod

[n david]

I don't understand something. The Bible commands us to 'shout unto God with the voice of triumph.' So then, why does a group of believers need a preacher to tell them 'God just now told me if you will shout and let er rip RIGHT NOW, satan's kingdom will be damaged'? Why the need for 'shredding air molecules'? Why not 'hey, the BIBLE says to do this in worship, so let's JUST DO IT'?
"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions.....With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice....

Again, LS did not say God told him anything other than God wanted to deliver some people from fear and inhibitions. That's it. God did not tell LS about satan's kingdom being damaged or sound waves displacing molecules.

I do agree with your premise, though. Especially after reading the vitriol aimed at LS for using that example. Of course, LS simply saying God told him something was enough for one person to label him a liar. So LS is going to lose either way. Jesus Christ Himself could appear with LS and nod at everything LS said, giving thumbs up signs, and some people here would still find criticism.

[n david]

What?
One of my prior posts mentioned looking out my office building windows at the blue sky and palm trees.

Now it's mostly cloudy, but still not a bad view.

[Pressing-On]

A bit hypocritical, but not surprising. You defended JA from my posts condemning his attack on another minister; yet, you now defend with a poster who's attacked LS and called him a liar, a fraud, a stage act, etc.

This really is just about Stoneking with you. Were it JA or someone else, you would be all over the other poster's attack.

I will enjoy my palm trees, thank you. It's Friday and tomorrow is the first weekend of the college football season!
I defend votivesoul because what Stoneking said isn't true. Whether intentional for effect or misguided info, it isn't true.

Did you know that high winds will "shred" those palm leaves? Now that can't be disputed. :heeheehee

Sorry, couldn't resist. :doggyrun

[Pressing-On]

I don't understand something. The Bible commands us to 'shout unto God with the voice of triumph.' So then, why does a group of believers need a preacher to tell them 'God just now told me if you will shout and let er rip RIGHT NOW, satan's kingdom will be damaged'? Why the need for 'shredding air molecules'? Why not 'hey, the BIBLE says to do this in worship, so let's JUST DO IT'?

Are we so far gone from the heart of God that we need something 'extra' just to get us to do what is plainly written already? If a person will not obey the WORD, but only if they are pushed and prodded and excited by extrabiblical 'encouragements' that do not actually give better understanding of the Word, but are instead SUBSITUTED for the Word... doesn't that imply that person is backslidden in heart, and will not obey God unless it pleases them or tickles their fancy?

Oh my goodness!!! I LOVE YOU!!! :heeheehee

Thank you for this post. To get people involved in sensationalism for a response is too sad for words.

:yourock

[Esaias]

"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions.....With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice....

Again, LS did not say God told him anything other than God wanted to deliver some people from fear and inhibitions. That's it. God did not tell LS about satan's kingdom being damaged or sound waves displacing molecules.

I do agree with your premise, though. Especially after reading the vitriol aimed at LS for using that example. Of course, LS simply saying God told him something was enough for one person to label him a liar. So LS is going to lose either way. Jesus Christ Himself could appear with LS and nod at everything LS said, giving thumbs up signs, and some people here would still find criticism.

Actually, I am focused (here) more on the audience than on LS. Why would the audience need to hear what they heard, INSTEAD of just straight up chapter and verse here it is let's do it? I am hearing some reports about how 'the kids went away to camp and because of LS' message they came back and are really into worship etc'. My question is, why didn't they already understand biblical worship? Why couldn't they just be told what the Bible teaches, and be so enthralled with THAT ALONE that they conformed to the Word of God?

I really fear we have too many gimmicks in general.

As far as LS himself is concerned, I try to keep my personal opinions to myself. If he says something clearly unbiblical, then I reject it. IF he says something biblical, then it's already acceptable.

[Esaias]

Oh my goodness!!! I LOVE YOU!!! :heeheehee

Thank you for this post. To get people involved in sensationalism for a response is too sad for words.

:yourock

Ted Cruz is still not viable.

:heeheehee

[n david]

Oh my goodness!!! I LOVE YOU!!! :heeheehee

Thank you for this post. To get people involved in sensationalism for a response is too sad for words.

:yourock
Calling fellow ministers idiots who need brain surgery is pretty sad, too. :nod

[Esaias]

BTW, is there actual video of the sermon? OR at least audio?

[Esaias]

Never mind, found a bunch on youtube. Watching now, will comment in a moment. (Nothing like debating something not actually seen or heard, eh? lol)

[n david]

Actually, I am focused (here) more on the audience than on LS. Why would the audience need to hear what they heard, INSTEAD of just straight up chapter and verse here it is let's do it? I am hearing some reports about how 'the kids went away to camp and because of LS' message they came back and are really into worship etc'. My question is, why didn't they already understand biblical worship? Why couldn't they just be told what the Bible teaches, and be so enthralled with THAT ALONE that they conformed to the Word of God?
What's wrong with the part in bold? Have you never heard a message after which your brain clicked and you grasped something, which was there the whole time, but you hadn't yet connected the dots?

[Pressing-On]

"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions.....With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice....

Again, LS did not say God told him anything other than God wanted to deliver some people from fear and inhibitions. That's it. God did not tell LS about satan's kingdom being damaged or sound waves displacing molecules.

I do agree with your premise, though. Especially after reading the vitriol aimed at LS for using that example. Of course, LS simply saying God told him something was enough for one person to label him a liar. So LS is going to lose either way. Jesus Christ Himself could appear with LS and nod at everything LS said, giving thumbs up signs, and some people here would still find criticism.

David, He tied in the info he said he found into what and why God wanted this "certain thing" from them. When people I know came back from that conference with tears in their eyes, they spoke of this awesome finding that our "decibel level" (their exact wording) is what fights the prince of the power of the air. So, I am listening to this and thinking, "What?"

[Esaias]

What's wrong with the part in bold? Have you never heard a message after which your brain clicked and you grasped something, which was there the whole time, but you hadn't yet connected the dots?

Yes of course, but my point is this is something so basic and fundamental these kids (unless they were all brand new as in just days old in the faith or possibly not even yet in the faith) should have already known and understood this.

A lot of times it is isn't so much 'something needs to click' it's a matter of 'I need to get over being embarassed and worried about what people will think and just obey God'.

Maybe I am not expressing myself very well.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Ted Cruz is still not viable.

:heeheehee

:lol

[Esaias]

David, He tied in the info he said he found into what and why God wanted this "certain thing" from them. When people I know came back from that conference with tears in their eyes, they spoke of this awesome finding that our "decibel level" (their exact wording) is what fights the prince of the power of the air. So, I am listening to this and thinking, "What?"

Oh my, that's probably not good.

But then again, people often misunderstand what is preached to them...

[n david]

David, He tied in the info he said he found into what and why God wanted this "certain thing" from them. When people I know came back from that conference with tears in their eyes, they spoke of this awesome finding that our "decibel level" (there exact wording) is what fights the prince of the power of the air. So, I am listening to this and thinking, "What?"
And yet that's not what LS said, is it? No, he didn't say that at all! Go back and watch or read the transcript, then please quote where LS uses "decibel level." You won't be able to because he didn't say that!

So you're bashing LS for something which he really didn't say. It's not his fault the people you know heard wrong.

[Pressing-On]

Calling fellow ministers idiots who need brain surgery is pretty sad, too. :nod

But was that a lie? :heeheehee

[Esaias]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGQAeZzmouA

[n david]

Oh my, that's probably not good.

But then again, people often misunderstand what is preached to them...
This is true.

[Pressing-On]

Ted Cruz is still not viable.

:heeheehee

Okay, so I don't actually feel the love. :heeheehee

[n david]

But was that a lie? :heeheehee
Pretty sure 100% of people who know the man would say Bro. Gleason is NOT an idiot, nor does he need brain surgery.

I've heard him preach several times, though I've never personally met him. I know relatives of his. He's not an idiot.

[Pressing-On]

Oh my, that's probably not good.

But then again, people often misunderstand what is preached to them...

Except, when I listened to the clip, I understood how they came away with that thinking. It just wasn't necessary to add it in. And I just want to say with the magic hair, this spectacular, sensationalism could be viewed as a possible lie. But, I agree with EB, it would warrant an investigation as to whether he has been corrected or not.

[Pressing-On]

Pretty sure 100% of people who know the man would say Bro. Gleason is NOT an idiot, nor does he need brain surgery.

I've heard him preach several times, though I've never personally met him. I know relatives of his. He's not an idiot.

I don't even remember what the whole thing was about. Lol!

[Pressing-On]

And yet that's not what LS said, is it? No, he didn't say that at all! Go back and watch or read the transcript, then please quote where LS uses "decibel level." You won't be able to because he didn't say that!

So you're bashing LS for something which he really didn't say. It's not his fault the people you know heard wrong.

David, Now we are getting into the troubling part. I didn't say Stoneking said that. That is what the young people got out of what he said!! That is their takeaway! And you wonder what upset me about this? Not only that, the leadership was encouraging it - the voice elevation being key to fight the enemy because research showed that the walls of Jericho fell because of the tremendous noise the Israelites made! I am sitting there thinking, "What?"

I don't normally talk about this type of stuff on this forum, but today I am just tired of it.

[n david]

David, Now we are getting into the troubling part. I didn't say Stoneking said that. That is what the young people got out of what he said!! That is their takeaway! And you wonder what upset me about this? Not only that, the leadership was encouraging it - the voice elevation being key to fight the enemy because research showed that the walls of Jericho fell because of the tremendous noise the Israelites made! I am sitting there thinking, "What?"

I don't normally talk about this type of stuff on this forum, but today I am just tired of it.
Again....the bold is NOT what LS said, so why are you bashing him over it!?! Other than personal bias against the man for his HMH doctrine. Instead of bashing LS over something which he did NOT say, you should correct the young people who misunderstood what he said. That would be the correct thing to do, not bash LS for something the man didn't even say! Good God in heaven. Now a minister doesn't even have to say something to get beat up over what he was perceived to have said! smh

Look, I completely, 100%, disagree with LS' HMH stuff, but I won't bash him for whatever else he says just because of HMH. You've mentioned HMH several times here, which makes it appear this is nothing other than personal bias due to HMH.

I also vehemently disagreed with JA calling another minister an idiot who needed brain surgery. But I don't continue to hold it against him and color every other message through the bias of that one outburst.

[votivesoul]

Sorry, but lying is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive. perpetuating a mistake as truth is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive, but in the case we are discussing you would have to prove that Brother Stoneking was personally confronted and corrected, and produce evidence for this. Saying he is a liar would have to be proven that he is indeed saying his stories with the intent to deceive his listeners. Amen?



No, they don't become liars because they believe what they heard to be truth. They are also mistaken, as they continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence. If they are corrected, and shown the error with evidence, but continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence even after they were convinced otherwise, then they are working from some sort of agenda, and therefore lying to turn others to their agenda.



No, not at all, because if Brother Stoneking took the information from some obscure source, old text book, magazine article, or didn't relay the information correctly, he is still mistaken, and therefore not knowingly trying to deceive his listeners.



No way, it is just never being corrected by a trusted peer or having the information proving otherwise. It is pure assumption to say Brother Stoneking preaching something for over decade required him to be corrected on it by someone else. Therefore it would be unprovable to call him a liar.



Sad, because he is duped, unknowingly presenting something incorrectly. He still isn't setting out to deceive. Wrong is wrong, and can be made right, lying is leading someone to destruction and is punishable by a millstone. You stated yourself that Brother Stoneking wasn't a false prophet, so he cannot be lying. Correct?



Again, lying is an attempt to deceive the listeners you would have to overturn you statement that you didn't believe Brother Stoneking to be a false prophet and now call him a liar, if all misinformation is lying.



But you were shown by n david in what context Brother Stoneking said "God spoke to him" was framed. Now, you have added an accusation that Brother Stoneking is knowingly lying on God?



VS, I should of started answering your post from the bottom up, because you used a lot of type to call Brother Stoneking a liar and a false prophet.

Which is your prerogative, because that is the way you see it. I don't agree with Brother Stoneking's stories which cannot be verified and people who know me know my views on those things. My daughter enjoys Brother Stoneking, as she was taught to eat the fish and spit out the bones. Yet, when I was pointing something out that I notice in one of his stories, she was quick to tell me "Dad, he is a believer!" Now, I don't know how you might take this, but she didn't mean Acts 2:38 or the Apostolic message, but that Brother Stoneking believes in the miraculous, having faith beyond what is contrary around you.

She is 14 years old and Brother Stoneking hasn't hurt her, because she has a whole church family and parents who love truth, and teach her to observe responsibly. But most of all, she is taught that not everything someone says that is incorrect is a lie, but people make mistakes, and sometimes try to teach mistakes as truth. Sometimes you will bump into someone who believe that Indians had a god named YHVH, you don't call them a liar, you listen to their information, check it out, when you find out it is incorrect, you deal with it as being incorrect. You don't call the person a liar.

Thanks for your insight and correction. I am taking it into consideration. God bless.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Thanks for your insight and correction. I am taking it into consideration. God bless.


The Lord bless you VS, in Jesus name.

[votivesoul]

n_david, I'm not angry with you, or anyone, or even Brother Stoneking. I have obviously disturbed your peace and made life hard for you with my comments.

Take away whatever validity they have or don't have, it still means I have offended you. We are called to peace. Unity is more important than being right all the time. Please forgive me for instigating your ire. I apologize.

Bump, in case this was missed by any or all. I hope it is being seen and read even if not commented on.

[Pressing-On]

Again....the bold is NOT what LS said, so why are you bashing him over it!?! Other than personal bias against the man for his HMH doctrine. Instead of bashing LS over something which he did NOT say, you should correct the young people who misunderstood what he said. That would be the correct thing to do, not bash LS for something the man didn't even say! Good God in heaven. Now a minister doesn't even have to say something to get beat up over what he was perceived to have said! smh

Look, I completely, 100%, disagree with LS' HMH stuff, but I won't bash him for whatever else he says just because of HMH. You've mentioned HMH several times here, which makes it appear this is nothing other than personal bias due to HMH.

I also vehemently disagreed with JA calling another minister an idiot who needed brain surgery. But I don't continue to hold it against him and color every other message through the bias of that one outburst.
I put in all caps the words I am focusing on. That doesn't mean I am yelling at you. :heeheehee

"And I THOUGHT to myself, what is it about SHOUTING that would CAUSE such a MANIFESTATION OF POWER? WITH A LITTLE STUDY, I FOUND OUT that there is SOMETHING about THE HUMAN VOICE, that WHEN IT SHOUTS, it SHREDS THE AIR MOLECULES."

Notice that his STUDY didn't take him to the Word of God to find out the real source from which the power is manifest - God Himself.

He also missed the source on the Magic Hair. That's problematic.

No matter how you slice it, this dog don't hunt.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Brother Keith McCann, once said this, and it stuck with me, the Russian Orthodox priests were debating tassel length on their robes when the communist revolution started. So, I guess the Pentecostals were debating a comment made by Brother Lee Stoneking when they started to be placed in jail by the homosexual community??

[Barb]

No haterade here just sadness at what this guy does and how you syncophants defend it. There are plenty of moderate and conservative preachers I respect even though I don't agree with them. I put LS in the same camp I do the charismatic wacko's who preach about gold dust, pearls falling from the ceiling, everybody will get a Mercedes if they give an offering, etc, etc.

Unbiblical tales and preposterous applications of facts or science are simply tickling the ears of those looking for the sensational.
:thumbsup

[Barb]

This actually makes no sense. Unless he is using this claim to solidify his point, biblically, why include it? Your "example" excuse is pretty weak.

Along with what else he said, it comes across as though he believes his point is biblically sound.

I believe we remember Segraves having to put out an article in the Herald after the magic hair business - "A Plea for Caution". It might be a good idea to write part two.
:thumbsup:thumbsup

[n david]

I put in all caps the words I am focusing on. That doesn't mean I am yelling at you. :heeheehee
I know what you were doing... You were shouting at me, trying to imply that I'm the debbil!

"And I THOUGHT to myself, what is it about SHOUTING that would CAUSE such a MANIFESTATION OF POWER? WITH A LITTLE STUDY, I FOUND OUT that there is SOMETHING about THE HUMAN VOICE, that WHEN IT SHOUTS, it SHREDS THE AIR MOLECULES."

Notice that his STUDY didn't take him to the Word of God to find out the real source from which the power is manifest - God Himself.

He also missed the source on the Magic Hair. That's problematic.

No matter how you slice it, this dog don't hunt.
Now, PO, I'm sorry but that's not right. You're grasping at anything to hold against this man.

First, you were upset over his use of an example. Then you were upset at him for something he didn't say, but which someone misunderstood. And now you're upset because he used a source other than the Bible to study.

Now, you did qualify it by saying he didn't use the Bible to show the source of real power. Really? If the youth who were attending NAYC don't know the source of power is God, then we have a much bigger problem than LS using a questionable example. Much, much bigger problem.

Besides, he DID use the Bible to lay a biblical foundation. And he did later repeat the power was in the Name. Also, he said twice that GOD would deliver them.

So, again, grasping at straws here. Dog doesn't hunt, etc. May want to figure out another reason to fault LS. :lol

[n david]

Brother Keith McCann, once said this, and it stuck with me, the Russian Orthodox priests were debating tassel length on their robes when the communist revolution started. So, I guess the Pentecostals were debating a comment made by Brother Lee Stoneking when they started to be placed in jail by the homosexual community??
Ouch

[Pressing-On]

Brother Keith McCann, once said this, and it stuck with me, the Russian Orthodox priests were debating tassel length on their robes when the communist revolution started. So, I guess the Pentecostals were debating a comment made by Brother Lee Stoneking when they started to be placed in jail by the homosexual community??

Are you going to put this in your signature line as a reminder in EVERY thread you participate in? :heeheehee

Besides, who cares what the Russian Orthodox Priests were doing at any time in history considering whichever era, they would always be lost?

[Pressing-On]

I know what you were doing... You were shouting at me, trying to imply that I'm the debbil!

"And I THOUGHT to myself, what is it about SHOUTING that would CAUSE such a MANIFESTATION OF POWER? WITH A LITTLE STUDY, I FOUND OUT that there is SOMETHING about THE HUMAN VOICE, that WHEN IT SHOUTS, it SHREDS THE AIR MOLECULES."


Now, PO, I'm sorry but that's not right. You're grasping at anything to hold against this man.

First, you were upset over his use of an example. Then you were upset at him for something he didn't say, but which someone misunderstood. And now you're upset because he used a source other than the Bible to study.

Now, you did qualify it by saying he didn't use the Bible to show the source of real power. Really? If the youth who were attending NAYC don't know the source of power is God, then we have a much bigger problem than LS using a questionable example. Much, much bigger problem.

Besides, he DID use the Bible to lay a biblical foundation. And he did later repeat the power was in the Name. Also, he said twice that GOD would deliver them.

So, again, grasping at straws here. Dog doesn't hunt, etc. May want to figure out another reason to fault LS. :lol
His use of an example? That was your wording. I don't actually know what you mean by his statement being an example. An example of what?

I believe that people are always looking for the miraculous and are not always careful to pay attention, especially when emotionalism or sensationalism is involved. Which appears to be the case here, IMO.

[n david]

His use of an example? That was your wording. I don't actually know what you mean by his statement being an example. An example of what?

I believe that people are always looking for the miraculous and are not always careful to pay attention, especially when emotionalism or sensationalism is involved. Which appears to be the case here, IMO.
You do know what an example is? C'mon. :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

Are you going to put this in your signature line as a reminder in EVERY thread you participate in? :heeheehee

Besides, who cares what the Russian Orthodox Priests were doing at any time in history considering whichever era, they would always be lost?

Wow, those maybe the very same words I said to Brother McCann at the time? :lol

I won't change my signature to that because not too many posters would understand, Just look at the battle you had absorbing its meaning. :heeheehee

Yet, in all seriousness, our world is falling down around our ears, and we are dissecting Brother Stoneking "blurb" spur of the moment thought. Meanwhile we'll defend some Baptist politician like he was the second coming of Christ. :heart

[Pressing-On]

Wow, those maybe the very same words I said to Brother McCann at the time? :lol

I won't change my signature to that because not too many posters would understand, Just look at the battle you had absorbing its meaning. :heeheehee

Yet, in all seriousness, our world is falling down around our ears, and we are dissecting Brother Stoneking "blurb" spur of the moment thought. Meanwhile we'll defend some Baptist politician like he was the second coming of Christ. :heart

So, if we feel the Word of God is being mishandled, we just ignore that because there are other serious issues all around us? There are always going to be other issues on top of issues.

Besides, that "blurb" is a very big deal to me.

[Pressing-On]

You do know what an example is? C'mon. :lol

C 'mon, David, just spell it out for me. I seriously don't understand what the "example" is supposed to be. Humor me and explain it.

Maybe it is so easy that I am overlooking it, or not. :heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

So, if we feel the Word of God is being mishandled, we just ignore that because there are other serious issues all around us? There are always going to be other issues on top of issues.

Sister, we know him, we know what he has said in the past, we realize this.
My 14 year old realizes this, my lands if I was to play all the preaching tapes I collected of other preachers which are in my library I would find a plethora of disinformation, absolute untruths, total foibles! Mindblowers that would make Pawpaw roll in his grave! Yet, those ministers are correct on the main thing, and keeping it the main thing.

Brother Stoneking isn't even preaching in that segment of the video, it sounded like he threw it together, and probably was more excited to see all those young people excited for Jesus Christ, and getting ready to blow the roof off the place. Then trying to get theological. I remember my old pastor would sit in his chair on the platform and smile as traveling evangelists would come through and make some errors. I would go to him and give him my thoughts. What he would tell me was this, "these men only have a week, maybe an afternoon, or one night to address the congregation."

Yet, the pastor has 365 days a year to be with the church family. Hey, we have heard whoppers from some preachers, but for the most part, not everything they do over that pulpit was busting watermelons. I know some men I didn't agree on certain points but they were still 100% on the Apostolic message and could shuck the corn! People still got encouraged, got the Holy Ghost, got baptized, got healed, got a relationship with Jesus, and Jesus took over where the preacher left off, and those people are awesome saints of God to this day.

I don't want to see the word mishandled, I don't ignore ignorance, and I don't suffer fools lightly. But I want to see the Apostolic movement get pass what this country has in store for our young people. They won't be thinking of Osama Bin Laden's evangelist wives, supercharged hair, voice molecules, or the tower of Babel being Nimrod's rocketship, when they're having an issue with the world around them. They will remember about fasting, praying, getting a hold of God, shouting with victory when the Holy Ghost comes upon them in praise, those are the things that matter. Their parents, their pastors will take care of all the other 365 days after the shredding molecule youth meeting is done and gone. :)

[Pressing-On]

Sister, we know him, we know what he has said in the past, we realize this.
My 14 year old realizes this, my lands if I was to play all the preaching tapes I collected of other preachers which are in my library I would find a plethora of disinformation, absolute untruths, total foibles! Mindblowers that would make Pawpaw roll in his grave! Yet, those ministers are correct on the main thing, and keeping it the main thing.

Brother Stoneking isn't even preaching in that segment of the video, it sounded like he threw it together, and probably was more excited to see all those young people excited for Jesus Christ, and getting ready to blow the roof off the place. Then trying to get theological. I remember my old pastor would sit in his chair on the platform and smile as traveling evangelists would come through and make some errors. I would go to him and give him my thoughts. What he would tell me was this, "these men only have a week, maybe an afternoon, or one night to address the congregation."

Yet, the pastor has 365 days a year to be with the church family. Hey, we have heard whoppers from some preachers, but for the most part, not everything they do over that pulpit was busting watermelons. I know some men I didn't agree on certain points but they were still 100% on the Apostolic message and could shuck the corn! People still got encouraged, got the Holy Ghost, got baptized, got healed, got a relationship with Jesus, and Jesus took over where the preacher left off, and those people are awesome saints of God to this day.

I don't want to see the word mishandled, I don't ignore ignorance, and I don't suffer fools lightly. But I want to see the Apostolic movement get pass what this country has in store for our young people. They won't be thinking of Osama Bin Laden's evangelist wives, supercharged hair, voice molecules, or the tower of Babel being Nimrod's rocketship, when they're having an issue with the world around them. They will remember about fasting, praying, getting a hold of God, shouting with victory when the Holy Ghost comes upon them in praise, those are the things that matter. Their parents, their pastors will take care of all the other 365 days after the shredding molecule youth meeting is done and gone. :)

Bro. Benincasa, This is an excellent post! Thank you so much for taking the time to write it. Great post to end the week on this discussion. :thumbsup

[Carl]

Yes! Great post EB ! I had not heard the Nimrods rocket one before! That is funny!

[n david]

Sister, we know him, we know what he has said in the past, we realize this.
My 14 year old realizes this, my lands if I was to play all the preaching tapes I collected of other preachers which are in my library I would find a plethora of disinformation, absolute untruths, total foibles! Mindblowers that would make Pawpaw roll in his grave! Yet, those ministers are correct on the main thing, and keeping it the main thing.

Brother Stoneking isn't even preaching in that segment of the video, it sounded like he threw it together, and probably was more excited to see all those young people excited for Jesus Christ, and getting ready to blow the roof off the place. Then trying to get theological. I remember my old pastor would sit in his chair on the platform and smile as traveling evangelists would come through and make some errors. I would go to him and give him my thoughts. What he would tell me was this, "these men only have a week, maybe an afternoon, or one night to address the congregation."

Yet, the pastor has 365 days a year to be with the church family. Hey, we have heard whoppers from some preachers, but for the most part, not everything they do over that pulpit was busting watermelons. I know some men I didn't agree on certain points but they were still 100% on the Apostolic message and could shuck the corn! People still got encouraged, got the Holy Ghost, got baptized, got healed, got a relationship with Jesus, and Jesus took over where the preacher left off, and those people are awesome saints of God to this day.

I don't want to see the word mishandled, I don't ignore ignorance, and I don't suffer fools lightly. But I want to see the Apostolic movement get pass what this country has in store for our young people. They won't be thinking of Osama Bin Laden's evangelist wives, supercharged hair, voice molecules, or the tower of Babel being Nimrod's rocketship, when they're having an issue with the world around them. They will remember about fasting, praying, getting a hold of God, shouting with victory when the Holy Ghost comes upon them in praise, those are the things that matter. Their parents, their pastors will take care of all the other 365 days after the shredding molecule youth meeting is done and gone. :)
Amen!

And if these kids don't know Who the source of power is...then we have bigger issues than whether or not sound waves displace molecules!

[Pressing-On]

Amen!

And if these kids don't know Who the source of power is...then we have bigger issues than whether or not sound waves displace molecules!

Right, because it wouldn't take much to be a bigger issue than air molecules. Just sayin'...:heeheehee

[CC1]

Maybe it shreds hair follicles

Now that is funnyt I don't care who you are! LOL:heeheehee

Also if that is the case then clearly LS practices what he preaches!