I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Father?

[Esaias]

Seems I was mistaken? I keep running into people who identify as "apostolic" and "oneness" who nevertheless believe and teach "Jesus is not God", or that Jesus is NOT the Father, that he is only " indwelt" by Deity and is not Himself the Supreme Deity, and other similar types of things.

Did I get on the wrong bus? Should I get off ASAP?

I was blown away when I discovered there were "apostolics" who didn't believe in the new birth of water and Spirit, or who didn't believe that baptism in the Name is FOR (not "because of") the remission of sins. But the last several years seems there is a rapidly growing number of apostolic oneness pentecostal believers who aren't even oneness - at least not as I understand the term...

[KeptByTheWord]

Just about everyone you talk to has a different spin on how to explain their way of understanding the Godhead, it seems.

[n david]

I know Jesus is the Father
I know Jesus is the Son
I know Jesus is the Holy Ghost
And all these three are One!

:shockamoo

[KeptByTheWord]

I know Jesus is the Father
I know Jesus is the Son
I know Jesus is the Holy Ghost
And all these three are One!

:shockamoo

Yup, grew up singing that song ... know it quite well! Let me tell you who Jesus is! :)

[Michael The Disciple]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=33326

In this poll from 2011 54% of posters here denied Jesus is the Father.

[mfblume]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=33326

In this poll from 2011 54% of posters here denied Jesus is the Father.

A person is not apostolic if they don't believe Jesus is the Father

[mfblume]

Just about everyone you talk to has a different spin on how to explain their way of understanding the Godhead, it seems.

People are not studying and are not receiving teaching nowadays. Sad.

[Michael The Disciple]

People are not studying and are not receiving teaching nowadays. Sad.

By and large modern Oneness teachers are doing a terrible job with the most wonderful doctrine. I see Oneness believers being humiliated by Trins a lot on Paltalk.

[Michael The Disciple]

A person is not apostolic if they don't believe Jesus is the Father

Agreed. When I was Trinitarian and accepted Oneness I then considered myself "Apostolic".

[Jermyn Davidson]

There are churches within the UPCI whose Pastor's teach that Jesus Christ is not the Father.

The Pastor's teach this because they choose to follow the Bible, not add to the Bible.

[Esaias]

There are churches within the UPCI whose Pastor's teach that Jesus Christ is not the Father.

The Pastor's teach this because they choose to follow the Bible, not add to the Bible.

If he ain't the father, then he ain't God.

[Jermyn Davidson]

For all this talk about Jesus BEING the Father, I find it interesting that the clear identity that Jesus Christ Himself embraced is that of the Son.

"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

"Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you..."

"Upon this Rock I will build my church..."

What rock? The rock of the identity of Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God.

[randyabrown]

One problem is that more than one group use the term Apostolic. I told someone from Indiana that I was Apostolic and he thought I was part of a group in Indiana that was similar to Universalists (or something else crazy). Another thought I was an offshoot of Catholics and he said that's what he was too. He was similar to Lutheran.

[Praxeas]

Seems I was mistaken? I keep running into people who identify as "apostolic" and "oneness" who nevertheless believe and teach "Jesus is not God", or that Jesus is NOT the Father, that he is only " indwelt" by Deity and is not Himself the Supreme Deity, and other similar types of things.

Did I get on the wrong bus? Should I get off ASAP?

I was blown away when I discovered there were "apostolics" who didn't believe in the new birth of water and Spirit, or who didn't believe that baptism in the Name is FOR (not "because of") the remission of sins. But the last several years seems there is a rapidly growing number of apostolic oneness pentecostal believers who aren't even oneness - at least not as I understand the term...
Those are Unitarians.

[randyabrown]

For all this talk about Jesus BEING the Father, I find it interesting that the clear identity that Jesus Christ Himself embraced is that of the Son.

"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

"Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you..."

"Upon this Rock I will build my church..."

What rock? The rock of the identity of Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God.

He was the son in his humanity, but he did claim to be the father and Isaiah said he was:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa. 9:6 KJV)

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (Jn. 8:58 KJV)

I and my Father are one. (Jn. 10:30 KJV)

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (Jn. 14:8-9 KJV)

There are too many verses that identify the deity of Jesus as Jehovah. Unless you believe in more than one Jehovah there's no way Jesus is not the Father.

[Praxeas]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=33326

In this poll from 2011 54% of posters here denied Jesus is the Father.

A person is not apostolic if they don't believe Jesus is the Father
Such polls are deceptive. By "Is Jesus the Father" do you mean "Is the Son the Father?"? To which even David Bernard recognizes the distinction.

When we say "Jesus is the Father", everyone else (Trinitarians, Unitarians, Arians, Jews and Muslims) believe we are saying the Son is the Father without distinction

[Jermyn Davidson]

He was the son in his humanity, but he did claim to be the father and Isaiah said he was:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa. 9:6 KJV)

Yep, I don't know what to do with that scripture. However, we have thousands of years of Christianity and hardly anyone has ever had the understanding of that scripture or any scripture that the Oneness Pentecostals teach. Why is that?



Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (Jn. 8:58 KJV)

A reference to Jesus' Identity as GOD, but not necessarily the Father.



I and my Father are one. (Jn. 10:30 KJV)

One, as in the SAME? Not buying it.


8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (Jn. 14:8-9 KJV)

The Son is the image of the Father. However, He is still the Son. He clearly accepts His Identity as the Son, which was revealed by the Holy Spirit to Peter.



There are too many verses that identify the deity of Jesus as Jehovah. Unless you believe in more than one Jehovah there's no way Jesus is not the Father.

If that was really true, then the vast majority Christian history would be filled with people who shared the Oneness Pentecostal view of Christ. However, the opposite is true and Oneness Pentecostal damns 97% or more of over 2,000 years of Christians to hell without any chance of redemption simply because they understood God wrong, were baptized the wrong way, didn't speak in tongues?

Does anyone see the logic in doing that?

[CC1]

Seems I was mistaken? I keep running into people who identify as "apostolic" and "oneness" who nevertheless believe and teach "Jesus is not God", or that Jesus is NOT the Father, that he is only " indwelt" by Deity and is not Himself the Supreme Deity, and other similar types of things.

Did I get on the wrong bus? Should I get off ASAP?

I was blown away when I discovered there were "apostolics" who didn't believe in the new birth of water and Spirit, or who didn't believe that baptism in the Name is FOR (not "because of") the remission of sins. But the last several years seems there is a rapidly growing number of apostolic oneness pentecostal believers who aren't even oneness - at least not as I understand the term...

Can you give a specific example of where you have seen a Apostolic say that Jesus is not God?

[mfblume]

Such polls are deceptive. By "Is Jesus the Father" do you mean "Is the Son the Father?"? To which even David Bernard recognizes the distinction.

When we say "Jesus is the Father", everyone else (Trinitarians, Unitarians, Arians, Jews and Muslims) believe we are saying the Son is the Father without distinction

I chose my words carefully. Jesus is the Father. The Son is not the Father. I would think apostolics would know that distinction, as per the issue at hand.

[Praxeas]

I chose my words carefully. Jesus is the Father. The Son is not the Father. I would think apostolics would know that distinction, as per the issue at hand.
Im not sure all Apostolics DO know the distinction...most of the time it's just not explained. Rather they get taught in sound bytes or bumper sticker theology...

[Praxeas]

I chose my words carefully. Jesus is the Father. The Son is not the Father. I would think apostolics would know that distinction, as per the issue at hand.
I can't tell you how many "Apostolics" I run into that seem to describe two persons, the Father and the Son. The Father is God and the Son is just a man...they swear by Bernards books

Then there are those that have two somethings...the Father is Spirit and the Son is just a skin suit God puts on


And yes I have run into those that swear the Father is the Son or the Son is the Father.

[Esaias]

For all this talk about Jesus BEING the Father, I find it interesting that the clear identity that Jesus Christ Himself embraced is that of the Son.

"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

"Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you..."

"Upon this Rock I will build my church..."

What rock? The rock of the identity of Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God.

So then Jesus is not God, right?

[mfblume]

I can't tell you how many "Apostolics" I run into that seem to describe two persons, the Father and the Son. The Father is God and the Son is just a man...they swear by Bernards books

Then there are those that have two somethings...the Father is Spirit and the Son is just a skin suit God puts on


And yes I have run into those that swear the Father is the Son or the Son is the Father.

Ignorance abounds. Wow.

[Jermyn Davidson]

So then Jesus is not God, right?

Wrong.

"Before Abraham was, I AM."

[Esaias]

But why are so many people claiming to be Oneness who deny the very foundation core concept of Oneness?

Makes my head spin. Why don't they call themselves "JesusisnotGodians"?

[mfblume]

But why are so many people claiming to be Oneness who deny the very foundation core concept of Oneness?

Makes my head spin. Why don't they call themselves "JesusisnotGodians"?

They don't know what they're talking about. Seriously.

[randyabrown]

Originally Posted by randyabrown View Post
There are too many verses that identify the deity of Jesus as Jehovah. Unless you believe in more than one Jehovah there's no way Jesus is not the Father.



If that was really true, then the vast majority Christian history would be filled with people who shared the Oneness Pentecostal view of Christ.

According to Scripture it's really true:

Jehovah - Almighty Genesis 17:1

Jesus - Almighty Revelation 1:8

Jehovah - I AM Exodus 3:14-16

Jesus - I am John 8:58

Jehovah - Rock Psalm 18:2; 28:1

Jesus - Rock I Corinthians 10:4

Jehovah - Horn of Salvation Psalm 18:2

Jesus - Horn of Salvation Luke 1:69

Jehovah - Good Shepherd Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11

Jesus - Good Shepherd, John 10:11; Great Shepherd Hebrews 13:20; Chief Shepherd I Peter 5:4

Jehovah - King of Glory Psalm 24:7-10

Jesus - Lord of Glory I Corinthians 2:8

Jehovah - Light Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:19

Jesus - Light John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23

Jehovah - Salvation Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2

Jesus - Only Salvation Acts 4:10-12

Jehovah - Lord of lords Psalm 136:3

Jesus - Lord of lords Revelation 19:16

Jehovah - Holy One Isaiah 12:6

Jesus - Holy One Acts 2:27

Jehovah - Lawgiver Isaiah 33:22

Jesus - Testator of the First Testament (the Law) Hebrews 9:14-17

Jehovah - Judge Isaiah 33:22; Acts 10:42

Jesus - Judge Micah 5:1

Jehovah - First and Last Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12

Jesus - Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last Revelation 1:8, 22:13

Jehovah - Only Savior Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16

Jesus - Savior Titus 2:13; 3:6

Jehovah - Giver Spiritual Water of Isaiah 44:3; 55:1

Jesus - Giver of Living Water John 4:10-14; 7:38-39

Jehovah - King of Israel Isaiah 44:6

Jesus - King of Israel, King of kings John 1:49; Revelation 19:6

Jehovah - Only Creator Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13

Jesus - Creator of Everything John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:10;

Jehovah - Only Just God Isaiah 45:21

Jesus - Just One Acts 7:52

Jehovah - Redeemer Isaiah 54:5; 60:16

Jesus - Redeemer Galatians 3:13, Revelation 5:9

[Sean]

The very thing that "qualifies" Jesus as the Father, is the indwelling fullness of the Father in His human son(Jesus).

[Sean]

Colossians 2:9

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[Sean]

The indwelling Father in the body of His human son, makes the son....omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent now.

[thephnxman]

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be
upon his shoulder: and his NAME shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty
God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Most everyone has erred on the NAME: they are still considering the "veil" of the
natural man, Jesus, instead of the NAME. Isa. 9:6, is telling us what we will find
in the NAME: it is His wonder, Counsel, the Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and the
Prince of Peace. As in "...whosoever shall call upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved."

YAH-weh (Je-hovah) is the O.T. NAME of promise for deliverance, salvation, etc.
YAH-shua (Je-sus) is the N.T. NAME that fulfills(ed) the promises.
God's (the Father's) NAME is YAH, which is Savior; therefore, God is the savior.

This in no way detracts from "...the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world."

[Esaias]

If Jesus isn't the mighty God and everlasting Father, then he isn't the Prince of Peace either.

[n david]

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:8-9 KJV

[votivesoul]

The titles of Isaiah 9:6 are not titles, as in several.

It is one long title in Hebrew:

פֶּלֶא יֹועֵץ אֵל גִּבֹּור אֲבִיעַד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום

Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom

The child/son of this passage is called one long title, not five separate titles, the same way, earlier in Isaiah (8:3) Gold told Isaiah to name one of his son's Mahershalalhashbaz, or one long prophetic title, as opposed to a standard name.

As such, the title of Isaiah 9:6 needs to be translated and interpreted differently than most current models do.

One example is: Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.

The title then is a not a description of the one who bears it, so much as it is a prophetic proclamation about the One described in the title proper.

[n david]

One of my father's favorite Scriptures is Isaiah 12:2:

"Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

The word for "salvation" is "Yeshua" or, as we know it, "Jesus." So the verse reads:

"Behold, God is my Yeshua/Jesus; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my Yeshua/Jesus."

[votivesoul]

Further, a literal word to word translation of the entire title does not necessarily bring out the same meaning we all know.

For example el gibbor can just as easily mean "a great tyrant/conqueror or mighty hero" since el, which can be translated as God, can also be translated many other ways.

Even Nebuchadnezzar is called el (See Ezekiel 31:11).

Additionally, the standard Hebrew word father, that is to say, av is not an automatic reference to God the Father, anymore than Avram or Exalted Father means that Abram was God the Father.

In ancient Jewish thought, a man could be a father of or to many different things, without being an actual father, much less God the Father. One merely needs to possess a thing in ancient Jewish thought to be called its father, or even to be an instructor and/or master of a subject. Consider Elishah's cry to Elijah "My father...". Or Job saying he was a father to those not actually of his progency.

So, just because this child/son is to be the "Father" of ad, or eternity, doesn't equate him with God the Father. Rather, in his future age of which this prophecy predicts, the child/son will be a master over eternity, as someone who, in his future immortality, possesses it.

[votivesoul]

One of my father's favorite Scriptures is Isaiah 12:2:

"Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

The word for "salvation" is "Yeshua" or, as we know it, "Jesus." So the verse reads:

"Behold, God is my Yeshua/Jesus; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my Yeshua/Jesus."

That's an old time myth.

Here is the Hebrew text, transliterated:

Behold, God is my yeshua'ti; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my li'shuah.

Both transliterated words, while related to the name Yeshua, are actually from a slightly different word, namely: yeshuah. This word is not a proper noun, that is, a name, but rather, is a standard noun, meaning salvation or deliverance.

Note, too, that it's a Hebrew word. Yeshua, as a proper name, is Aramaic, but in Hebrew, Christ's name was and is Yehoshua or "Yah (makes) safe". Yehoshua is a compound of the Tetragrammaton YHWH and yasha.

The Hebrew word from Isaiah 12:2, while closely related, isn't the same as the Aramaic name Yeshua, or even the Hebrew name for Jesus, i.e. Yehoshua.

[Praxeas]

The very thing that "qualifies" Jesus as the Father, is the indwelling fullness of the Father in His human son(Jesus).so the Son is the Father?

[thephnxman]

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:8-9 KJV

That is correct: the fullness of the Godhead, or everything that is God, dwells
in the body of Jesus.

"To wit, that God was IN Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not
imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of
reconciliation."

How was God, and His fullness, in the body? By the SPOKEN WORD sent from God
through the angel, when he (the angel) said, "Hail, Mary...that which is conceived in
thee...you shall call his NAME Jesus, for He shall save...". And then: "He sent
His WORD and healed them from their destruction." Once more, this is not
detracting anything from "...the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world."

[ApostolicKitty]

Seems I was mistaken? I keep running into people who identify as "apostolic" and "oneness" who nevertheless believe and teach "Jesus is not God", or that Jesus is NOT the Father, that he is only " indwelt" by Deity and is not Himself the Supreme Deity, and other similar types of things.

Did I get on the wrong bus? Should I get off ASAP?

I was blown away when I discovered there were "apostolics" who didn't believe in the new birth of water and Spirit, or who didn't believe that baptism in the Name is FOR (not "because of") the remission of sins. But the last several years seems there is a rapidly growing number of apostolic oneness pentecostal believers who aren't even oneness - at least not as I understand the term...

The guy we were friends with that we started doing Skype studies with became one of these. Years ago he would greatly argue for oneness. Honestly, I learned a lot from reading his writings back then. It's also when we became friends... He started doing research for his book and was reading all kinds of things, apparently the doctrines of devils, and became convinced that Jesus was just an obedient man. I didn't realize it till we were on Skype. Then I noticed that, not only had his doctrine changed, but he had a different spirit about him. The way he acted actually reminded me of a rabid dog, rather than the Holy Ghost filled man I had know him as. He claimed that what we believed (and what he once believed) about Jesus being the father was gnosticism. I think he was the one who actually adopted gnosticism. I believe the Bible is clear about Jesus being one and the same as the Father.

It still makes me sad to think of how we had to cut ties with him.

[Sean]

so the Son is the Father?



The Father dwells inside the "glorified" human son, fully.

The Father speaks through the human son.

The Father creates(miracles) through the human son.

The Father is visible through the human son.

The Father is manifested to us through the human son.


The human son is the visible manifestation(revealing) of the indwelling Father to mankind.

2 Corinthians 5:19

19 To wit, that God(Father) was in Christ(son), reconciling the world unto himself(Father), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[mfblume]

Jesus is either the very person of God in flesh or is any given man like you or me who was simply obedient. Did God pick a man amongst thousands, like any other man and choose to Indwell him, when it could've been another man, or is that man unique because it's God's person who manifested in flesh, disallowing for the idea that it could've been any man? Is it a human person distinct, as you and I are, for the person of God? That is the issue.

[Ferd]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=33326

In this poll from 2011 54% of posters here denied Jesus is the Father.

you do realize that AFF isn't exactly the bastion of Apostolic faith right?

[n david]

That's an old time myth.
No, not an old "myth." :smack

Yeshua is simply a shortened form of the word Yehoshua. It's the same, per any source you can find.

The name "Jesus" is an Anglicized form of the Greek name Yesous found in the New Testament, which represented the Hebrew Bible name Yeshua ("Jeshua" in English Bibles; Ezra 2:2; Neh 7:7). Yeshua, in turn, was a shortened form of the name Yehoshua ("Joshua" in English Bibles).

Yeshua (ישוע, with vowel pointing יֵשׁוּעַ – yēšūă‘ in Hebrew) was a common alternative form of the name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ("Yehoshuah" – Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period. The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.

Yeshua is the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Joshua.” Iesous is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Jesus.” Thus, the names “Joshua” and “Jesus” are essentially the same; both are English pronunciations of the Hebrew and Greek names for our Lord. (For examples of how the two names are interchangeable, see Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8 in the KJV. In both cases, the word Jesus refers to the Old Testament character Joshua.)

Even the abbreviated form "Yeshua" retains the original meaning: "the LORD will save." In the Greek Bible (the Septuagint, LXX), Yehoshua and Yeshua are both represented by one name: Yesous. This is also the name used later in the Greek New Testament for both Joshua (Acts 7:45; Heb 4:8) and Jesus.

Thus Jesus' Jewish Greek name represents the Hebrew "Yehoshua" and "Yeshua."

The name "Jesus" is an Anglicized (English) form of the Greek name Yesous. In the first century Yesous represented the Hebrew name Yeshua, which in turn was a shortened form of the name Yehoshua.

"Behold, God is my Yeshua/Jesus; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my Yeshua/Jesus."

[Esaias]

Hmm. So reading some of the responses it seems God is not happy with me, because I've been giving Jesus too much glory.

Who'd a thunk it? I guess I need to repent for thinking too highly of my Saviour, JESUS CHRIST...

[thephnxman]

My son is a man, because he was begotten of me, a man. So Jesus Christ, the man
"...made of a woman, made under the law,..", is deity because he was begotten of
God, the Father of creation. And no, it could NOT have been any other man/person,
for no one else has been begotten from a virgin, and without an earthly father. So
THAT IS NOT the issue.

The issue is that most "christians" seem to believe that their denomination has all
the answers, when their denomination has strayed from God's ministerial pattern of
"...some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors
and teachers...": giving the Ministry only lip service.

This bears repeating:
There is only ONE Ministry, with different "offices". Each office complements the
others, and should be submissive one to another. Any authority or power manifest
by the Ministry is in direct proportion to the obedience of each Minister to the Word.

[Ferd]

Hmm. So reading some of the responses it seems God is not happy with me, because I've been giving Jesus too much glory.

Who'd a thunk it? I guess I need to repent for thinking too highly of my Saviour, JESUS CHRIST...

don't confuse "some" with apostolic....


LOL

[Ferd]

why is this so hard?

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[Pressing-On]

why is this so hard?

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

When Jesus is finished with the purpose of being incarnated, He will no longer be known as the son (God manifest in the flesh), but will be known as God Himself.

:cheer

[votivesoul]

No, not an old "myth." :smack

Yeshua is simply a shortened form of the word Yehoshua. It's the same, per any source you can find.

The name "Jesus" is an Anglicized form of the Greek name Yesous found in the New Testament, which represented the Hebrew Bible name Yeshua ("Jeshua" in English Bibles; Ezra 2:2; Neh 7:7). Yeshua, in turn, was a shortened form of the name Yehoshua ("Joshua" in English Bibles).

Yeshua (ישוע, with vowel pointing יֵשׁוּעַ – yēšūă‘ in Hebrew) was a common alternative form of the name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ("Yehoshuah" – Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period. The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.

Yeshua is the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Joshua.” Iesous is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Jesus.” Thus, the names “Joshua” and “Jesus” are essentially the same; both are English pronunciations of the Hebrew and Greek names for our Lord. (For examples of how the two names are interchangeable, see Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8 in the KJV. In both cases, the word Jesus refers to the Old Testament character Joshua.)

Even the abbreviated form "Yeshua" retains the original meaning: "the LORD will save." In the Greek Bible (the Septuagint, LXX), Yehoshua and Yeshua are both represented by one name: Yesous. This is also the name used later in the Greek New Testament for both Joshua (Acts 7:45; Heb 4:8) and Jesus.

Thus Jesus' Jewish Greek name represents the Hebrew "Yehoshua" and "Yeshua."

The name "Jesus" is an Anglicized (English) form of the Greek name Yesous. In the first century Yesous represented the Hebrew name Yeshua, which in turn was a shortened form of the name Yehoshua.

"Behold, God is my Yeshua/Jesus; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my Yeshua/Jesus."

That is an excellent explanation for the many forms of the name of Jesus, in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and English. I agree with it all.

None of which, however, means the name Jesus corresponds to the Hebrew word in Isaiah 12:2 for salvation.

[votivesoul]

Hmm. So reading some of the responses it seems God is not happy with me, because I've been giving Jesus too much glory.

Who'd a thunk it? I guess I need to repent for thinking too highly of my Saviour, JESUS CHRIST...

It is never a mistake giving glory to your Savior, Jesus Christ. It is the will of God that we do so, since He elevated Christ in and into glory, and gave Him a name that is above every other name.

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

[Servant's <3]

Esaias is being melodramatic.

[houston]

OP's that don't agree on "oneness" doctrine. Hilarious.

[n david]

That is an excellent explanation for the many forms of the name of Jesus, in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and English. I agree with it all.

None of which, however, means the name Jesus corresponds to the Hebrew word in Isaiah 12:2 for salvation.
I disagree. All I've seen of this in the Hebrew points back to Yeshua/Jesus. But I'm not going to argue with you over this.

[Esaias]

Esaias is being melodramatic.

I think I'm understating the obvious.

There is a spirit that doesn't want people to exalt Jesus TOO much.

And it ain't the Holy Spirit.

[Esaias]

I Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

When Jesus is finished with the purpose of being incarnated, He will no longer be known as the son (God manifest in the flesh), but will be known as God Himself.

:cheer

Glad SOMEBODY here is apostolic.

:)

[Servant's <3]

Oh good grief....

It is impossible to glorify Jesus too much. The very idea is absurd. Jesus is God, period. God subjected to the same rules as us, but still God undeniably. As I believe it was mfblume said if he isn't God then he is JUST a man, but he isn't because he is God.

I don't have to be distinctive when I pray whether I am talking to God or Jesus because they are the same person. To say otherwise is to create separation betwixt Jesus and God when there shouldn't be any.

Because Jesus was subjected to the same rules as humanity he could sacrifice himself. If he wasn't subjected to the same rules as humanity then he could not die, there would then be no sacrifice hence no blood that cleanses us from sin.

If people desire to think otherwise, who cares. Is it right to ridicule them? Let the trinitarians or people who think Jesus isn't God think what they want. We will know in the hereafter that Jesus is God.

[Esaias]

Ah but according to some folks here it IS possible to glorify Jesus "too much." There are apparently people calling themselves Oneness Pentecostals who believe Jesus is not God. If we then glorify Jesus as Father, as our Great God and Saviour, but he really isn't, he's just a man used by God, then we are guilty of the sin of idolatry, and having another God besides YHVH.

This is not an issue that we can rightly say "oh, who cares". The identity of Jesus Christ is THE ISSUE facing mankind. There is no other issue. Everything about man's relationship to God, as saints or sinners, is tied into " Who is Jesus?"

[houston]

Who stated that Jesus was just a man being used by God?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Jesus Christ can be God without being the Father.

[Michael The Disciple]

Jesus Christ can be God without being the Father.

Enlighten us please.

[mfblume]

Jesus Christ can be God without being the Father.

anything can be. But what is?

[mfblume]

..

[mfblume]

Who stated that Jesus was just a man being used by God?

Votivesoul is one, but he can speak for himself.

[shazeep]

Jesus Christ can be God without being the Father.nice. this is as specific as one needs to be, imo.

[randyabrown]

Jesus Christ can be God without being the Father.

If you have more than one God or a God that's a group of people. Of course this goes against Scripture:

Jesus is the Everlasting Father - Isaiah 9:6

We only have 1 Father - Malachi 2:10, Ephesians 4:6

All the fullness of the godhead is in Jesus, which has to include the Father - Colossians 2:9

Jesus said he was the Father - John 8:19, John 8:24

Jesus is the I Am - Exodus 3:14

When you see Jesus you see the one that sent him - John 12:45, John 14:7

Jesus said the Father was in him - John 10:38

Jesus said he was the Father of over-comers - Revelation 21:6-7

Jesus said he would not leave us fatherless but that he would come to us - John 14:18

Jesus said he would send the Comforter - John 16:7

- The Father would send the Comforter - John 14:26

Jesus said he would draw men to God - John 12:32

- The Father draws us - John 6:44

Jesus will raise believers in the last day - John 6:40

- the Father gives life and raises us - Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14

Jesus said he would answer prayer - John 14:14

- the Father is the one that answers prayer - John 16:23

Jesus is the one that sanctifies - Ephesians 5:26

- the Father is the one that sanctifies - Jude 1

Jesus was manifested to take away sin - John 1:29-31

- the Father is the one that was manifested to take away sin - I John 3:1-6

Tradition is irrelevant. All that matters is what the Scriptures say.

[J.A. Perez]

I believe Jesus clearly said, and I am paraphrasing.

If you do not believe I am the Father you will die in your sins.

John 8:19-24
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yetcome.

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Verse 24.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

[houston]

I believe Jesus clearly said, and I am paraphrasing.

If you do not believe I am the Father you will die in your sins.


:foottap

[J.A. Perez]

:foottap

With John 8:24 he gives the answer to the Pharisees question in verse 19.

"Where is thy Father?"

[shazeep]

With John 8:24 he gives the answer to the Pharisees question in verse 19.

"Where is thy Father?"of course, there are at least as many passages where Christ separates Himself from the Father--but what the heck.

[Sean]

I believe Jesus clearly said, and I am paraphrasing.

If you do not believe I am the Father you will die in your sins.

John 8:19-24
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yetcome.

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Verse 24.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.



John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



God was inside the body of His begotten son, Jesus....Right?(I think so)


Could it be that God was/is inside of Jesus, speaking to mankind and reconciling the world back to Himself?(I think so)

[randyabrown]

of course, there are at least as many passages where Christ separates Himself from the Father--but what the heck.

And we would expect to see that because he was also a man. Two natures - both God and man. His deity is the Father (Jehovah - the only God there is) and his humanity is the Son of God. As a man he prayed; as God he answered prayer.

[Sean]

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father(my divine nature) is greater than I(my human nature).....





?

[Sean]

John 14:7 If ye had known me(my human nature), ye should have known my Father(my divine nature) also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me(my human nature) hath seen the Father(my divine nature) and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?





?

[shazeep]

what i dislike about this common conflation is that you had to add the parenthesis; and i happen to disagree with the "human nature" one, on moral grounds. I may be wrong, but your explanation reads like, "You have seen Me acting natural, and also divine..."
And we would expect to see that because he was also a man. Two natures - both God and man. His deity is the Father (Jehovah - the only God there is) and his humanity is the Son of God. As a man he prayed; as God he answered prayer.i have never had a problem with Christ's deity as the Son. Also, this explanation is inadequate to explain some of Christ's replies on this subject...but honestly, it is a subject that can only cause division, i think. i have yet to see on of these threads come to any conclusions. They inevitably strike me as a group of people expecting to define God more perfectly, or see God more fully, when Christ's "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" may be interpreted to mean something else.

Why wouldn't Christ just say "I AM the Father?" For the very simple reason that He is not the Father, in some important sense.

[randyabrown]

i have never had a problem with Christ's deity as the Son. Also, this explanation is inadequate to explain some of Christ's replies on this subject...but honestly, it is a subject that can only cause division, i think. i have yet to see on of these threads come to any conclusions.

Which of Christ's replies does his dual nature not explain?

[shazeep]

Which of Christ's replies does his dual nature not explain?rather, Christ gave many, many replies, some direct, that indicate that He did not consider Himself the Father, at least in the way that we now try to make Him. It can be simply stated that if Christ is the Father, then He was lying throughout much of the NT.

[randyabrown]

rather, Christ gave many, many replies, some direct, that indicate that He did not consider Himself the Father, at least in the way that we now try to make Him. It can be simply stated that if Christ is the Father, then He was lying throughout much of the NT.

Give us an example where Christ does not consider his deity to be the Father.

[shazeep]

Give us an example where Christ does not consider his deity to be the Father.i could give you 100, but ok.

…68and if I ask a question, you will not answer. 69"But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." 70And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."…(not "I AM," notice; or even "I Am.")

[randyabrown]

i could give you 100, but ok.

…68and if I ask a question, you will not answer. 69"But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." 70And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."…(not "I AM," notice; or even "I Am.")

Is Right Hand literal?

Jesus did claim to be the I Am (capitalization is irrelevant in a translation):

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (Jn. 8:56-59 KJV)

[shazeep]

by all means, ignore the parenthesis then :lol

[randyabrown]

what i dislike about this common conflation is that you had to add the parenthesis; and i happen to disagree with the "human nature" one, on moral grounds. I may be wrong, but your explanation reads like, "You have seen Me acting natural, and also divine..."
i have never had a problem with Christ's deity as the Son. Also, this explanation is inadequate to explain some of Christ's replies on this subject...but honestly, it is a subject that can only cause division, i think. i have yet to see on of these threads come to any conclusions. They inevitably strike me as a group of people expecting to define God more perfectly, or see God more fully, when Christ's "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" may be interpreted to mean something else.

Why wouldn't Christ just say "I AM the Father?" For the very simple reason that He is not the Father, in some important sense.

If you want to say Jesus is not the Father then you have some verses to explain:

Jesus is the Everlasting Father - Isaiah 9:6

We only have 1 Father - Malachi 2:10, Ephesians 4:6

All the fullness of the godhead is in Jesus, which has to include the Father - Colossians 2:9

Jesus said he was the Father - John 8:19, John 8:24

Jesus is the I Am - Exodus 3:14

When you see Jesus you see the one that sent him - John 12:45, John 14:7

Jesus said the Father was in him - John 10:38

Jesus said he was the Father of over-comers - Revelation 21:6-7

Jesus said he would not leave us fatherless but that he would come to us - John 14:18

Jesus said he would send the Comforter - John 16:7

- The Father would send the Comforter - John 14:26

Jesus said he would draw men to God - John 12:32

- The Father draws us - John 6:44

Jesus will raise believers in the last day - John 6:40

- the Father gives life and raises us - Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14

Jesus said he would answer prayer - John 14:14

- the Father is the one that answers prayer - John 16:23

Jesus is the one that sanctifies - Ephesians 5:26

- the Father is the one that sanctifies - Jude 1

Jesus was manifested to take away sin - John 1:29-31

- the Father is the one that was manifested to take away sin - I John 3:1-6

[shazeep]

well, i wouldn't say that Christ was not God, but rather why conflate two offices of God? But we are not going to settle the Oney/Trinny debate in this thread, either; it is meant to divide. If i agree with you, what changes? It is a lawyer debate. It has no substance.

[Praxeas]

I think when we understand rabbinical thought then and how they viewed God three fold, a lot of this makes more sense

God is a transcendent personal being. He could only be experienced by His Memra and Shekina..His Speaking and His dwelling presence on earth.|

The Shekina refers to the Glory often seen/experienced by Moses or in the temple

Jesus is the Memra/Logos made flesh. He is the Presence of God dwelling with man

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Memra), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 This one was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and took up residence(Shekina) among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.
Joh 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

Jesus is distinct from the Transcendent Father in Mode

[Michael The Disciple]

I believe Jesus clearly said, and I am paraphrasing.

If you do not believe I am the Father you will die in your sins.

John 8:19-24
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yetcome.

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Verse 24.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I see this.

[Michael The Disciple]

And we would expect to see that because he was also a man. Two natures - both God and man. His deity is the Father (Jehovah - the only God there is) and his humanity is the Son of God. As a man he prayed; as God he answered prayer.

I see this.

[Michael The Disciple]

Prax

Jesus is distinct from the Transcendent Father in Mode

I see this.

[Michael The Disciple]

i could give you 100, but ok.

…68and if I ask a question, you will not answer. 69"But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." 70And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."…(not "I AM," notice; or even "I Am.")

Jesus as a MAN is at the right hand of God.

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; Heb 10:12

In his deity he is THE GOD. In his humanity he is the man Jesus Christ.

To believe he is both God and man simultaneously is to understand the doctrine of Christ. Isaiah 9:6

[Esaias]

Jesus as a MAN is at the right hand of God.

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; Heb 10:12

In his deity he is THE GOD. In his humanity he is the man Jesus Christ.

To believe he is both God and man simultaneously is to understand the doctrine of Christ. Isaiah 9:6

Amen! And that is why we baptize in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, because true believers look to JESUS ALONE for all they need, meaning we see ALL OF GOD in Jesus Christ.

He is our God, manifested in flesh. Oh what a SAVIOUR!

[shazeep]

um, did you really just say "true believers?" :toofunny
sorry, i just bristle at Rhema-bot things, i guess
Jesus as a MAN is at the right hand of God.

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; Heb 10:12

In his deity he is THE GOD. In his humanity he is the man Jesus Christ.

To believe he is both God and man simultaneously is to understand the doctrine of Christ. Isaiah 9:6yup. i notice the quickest way to call roll on a Pent forum is to have a Oneness/Trinny debate; wonder why that is :lol

[ApostolicKitty]

I think when we understand rabbinical thought then and how they viewed God three fold, a lot of this makes more sense

God is a transcendent personal being. He could only be experienced by His Memra and Shekina..His Speaking and His dwelling presence on earth.|

The Shekina refers to the Glory often seen/experienced by Moses or in the temple

Jesus is the Memra/Logos made flesh. He is the Presence of God dwelling with man

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Memra), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 This one was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and took up residence(Shekina) among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.
Joh 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

Jesus is distinct from the Transcendent Father in Mode

How did this Kabbalah (Cabalah) stuff get brought into this?

[Esaias]

How did this Kabbalah (Cabalah) stuff get brought into this?

It's AFF. ;)

[Evang.Benincasa]

How did this Kabbalah (Cabalah) stuff get brought into this?

I'm trying to figure out how John was written in Hebrew?