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mizpeh
12-27-2018, 09:01 AM
Has the prophesy in Revelation 18 happened yet?
Please explain...

Apostolic1ness
12-27-2018, 10:07 AM
It appears to me that this is the chapter that the Rapture happens. So I dont believe this has happened yet.

mizpeh
12-27-2018, 10:49 AM
It appears to me that this is the chapter that the Rapture happens. So I dont believe this has happened yet.This is the chapter about the fall of Babylon.

Apostolic1ness
12-27-2018, 11:03 AM
This is the chapter about the fall of Babylon.

I think its the chapter of the rapture leading up to the wrath of God in the next chapter.

Michael The Disciple
12-28-2018, 04:20 PM
Babylon is Fallen

Rev 18:11-19

11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

This does not sound like the Catholic Church to me. It sounds like an economic power.

Michael The Disciple
12-28-2018, 04:56 PM
Has the prophesy in Revelation 18 happened yet?
Please explain...

I vote no. It seems to happen about the time Jesus comes. Some will say it was Jerusalem ad 70 I'm sure. If so they have a "gap" problem every bit as big as the "dispensationalists".

Bowas
12-30-2018, 04:42 PM
I vote no. It seems to happen about the time Jesus comes. Some will say it was Jerusalem ad 70 I'm sure. If so they have a "gap" problem every bit as big as the "dispensationalists".

The "gap" dispensationalist propose is not what is detailed in Revelation. Revelation is what occurs after the 490 years (70 weeks) were completed, which was completed 3.5 years after Jesus' crucifixion where we find other than the Jews admitted into the kingdom, but Revelation doesn't describe any supposed gap concerning Daniels's 70 weeks.

mizpeh
01-01-2019, 06:30 AM
I vote no. It seems to happen about the time Jesus comes. Some will say it was Jerusalem ad 70 I'm sure. If so they have a "gap" problem every bit as big as the "dispensationalists".
I don't think it has happened yet, either.
It isn't speaking of the city of Babylon belonging to Nebuchaddrezar which remains uninhabited.
It is in reference to a real, existing city at that time. I think Rome.
Rome still exists and isn't completely abandoned, therefore it hasn't happened yet.
Not Jerusalem 70ad, since Jerusalem is still inhabited. And Jesus is coming back to rule over an uninhabited city.

Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Bowas
01-02-2019, 07:09 AM
I don't think it has happened yet, either.
It isn't speaking of the city of Babylon belonging to Nebuchaddrezar which remains uninhabited.
It is in reference to a real, existing city at that time. I think Rome.
Rome still exists and isn't completely abandoned, therefore it hasn't happened yet.
Not Jerusalem 70ad, since Jerusalem is still inhabited. And Jesus is coming back to rule over an uninhabited city.

Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Have you cross referenced these verses to see who it says is guilty of all the blood shed upon the earth?


Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Apostolic1ness
01-02-2019, 08:00 AM
Have you cross referenced these verses to see who it says is guilty of all the blood shed upon the earth?


Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

I dont believe this is speaking of a specific city of Babylon but rather the sinful world. Verse 24 says "in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth"
how could the blood of all that were slain upon the earth be in Babylon? unless Babylon is referring to the sinful world.

Bowas
01-02-2019, 08:32 AM
[/U]

I dont believe this is speaking of a specific city of Babylon but rather the sinful world. Verse 24 says "in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth"
how could the blood of all that were slain upon the earth be in Babylon? unless Babylon is referring to the sinful world.

In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

Michael The Disciple
01-02-2019, 10:47 AM
In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

But when Babylon fell in Rev. 18 Jesus comes in the next chapter.

Did Jesus come in 70ad?

Apostolic1ness
01-02-2019, 01:08 PM
In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

so your saying that Jerusalem is Babylon?

Esaias
01-02-2019, 01:50 PM
In cross referencing the verse, which is a preferred method of interpretation, we can find where Jesus actually uttered the same language and identified what city is the guilty one.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Compare that again to this:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev_18:24 And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

It should be pointed out that the language is not identical. Similar, yes, but not identical.

Jerusalem was to be guilty of "all" the prophets and "all" the slain of the earth. Apocalyptic Babylon however was to be guilty of prophets (not "all prophets", just "prophets"). Also, "of all that were slain" indicates that out of all those slain upon the earth, she shared in the blood guilt. Not that EVERYONE slain on the earth was applied to her account.

And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

The reading is a triple object: prophets, saints, and of everyone else. Prophets and saints are specifically indefinite, therefore not all-inclusive (contrary to the doom pronounced against earthly Jerusalem). The third part, "of all that were slain" must be likewise indefinite. It means a representative sample out of everyone else. Otherwise, it would include ALL prophets and ALL saints, making them superfluous and redundant additions.

Apocalyptic Babylon is Jerusalem, but not the Jerusalem you think it is. It is not a physical earthly city, anymore than the Heavenly Jerusalem is a physical city. The Heavenly Jerusalem is THE BRIDE. So what then does it's counterpart, Babylon, represent? Not a physical city, but something else.

Just as Heavenly Jerusalem SYMBOLISES the Bride, Babylon SYMBOLISES something in counterpoint. The CITY, in each case, is the SYMBOL, and therefore does not represent an actual physical city. Because that would mean the SYMBOL represents ITSELF, which is contrary to the apocalyptic use of symbols.

Galatians chapter 4 explains the same concept found in the Revelation. But instead of the symbols being Babylon and "new" Jerusalem, the symbols are Hagar/Sinai, and Sarah. And they are explained as representing the two COVENANTS and (more specifically) the TWO PEOPLES INVOLVED. The Pauline contrast is between JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY. That is the same contrast, in essence, found in Revelation.

Moreover, the fact is there is no evidence the Revelation was written before AD 70, but all the evidence points to a mid-late 90s authorship. Which means the vision CANNOT POSSIBLY be simply about the AD 70 destruction of the earthly city of Jerusalem.

Bowas
01-02-2019, 07:10 PM
so your saying that Jerusalem is Babylon?

Interesting how I added no real commentary on who I see is Babylon, but you inadvertently came to the same conclusion.
When we allow scripture to interpret scripture, we can minimize private interpretations.

Bowas
01-02-2019, 07:16 PM
But when Babylon fell in Rev. 18 Jesus comes in the next chapter.

Did Jesus come in 70ad?

Jesus has come many times throughout the Bible. Most common comings are when He came as a child in Bethlehem, and most Oneness believers believe He came as the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and I know for a fact He came into my life back in 1964, and He came again last Sunday in worship service. He comes and has come in many different ways for many different reasons. Just as he came in judgement in several Old testament accounts, He did come in a judgement against Jerusalem in AD70. I do not believe that is what is commonly taught as "the second coming,' as I see that as in our future.

Bowas
01-02-2019, 07:22 PM
It should be pointed out that the language is not identical. Similar, yes, but not identical.

Jerusalem was to be guilty of "all" the prophets and "all" the slain of the earth. Apocalyptic Babylon however was to be guilty of prophets (not "all prophets", just "prophets"). Also, "of all that were slain" indicates that out of all those slain upon the earth, she shared in the blood guilt. Not that EVERYONE slain on the earth was applied to her account.

And in her was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, and of saints, and of ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.

The reading is a triple object: prophets, saints, and of everyone else. Prophets and saints are specifically indefinite, therefore not all-inclusive (contrary to the doom pronounced against earthly Jerusalem). The third part, "of all that were slain" must be likewise indefinite. It means a representative sample out of everyone else. Otherwise, it would include ALL prophets and ALL saints, making them superfluous and redundant additions.

Apocalyptic Babylon is Jerusalem, but not the Jerusalem you think it is. It is not a physical earthly city, anymore than the Heavenly Jerusalem is a physical city. The Heavenly Jerusalem is THE BRIDE. So what then does it's counterpart, Babylon, represent? Not a physical city, but something else.

Just as Heavenly Jerusalem SYMBOLISES the Bride, Babylon SYMBOLISES something in counterpoint. The CITY, in each case, is the SYMBOL, and therefore does not represent an actual physical city. Because that would mean the SYMBOL represents ITSELF, which is contrary to the apocalyptic use of symbols.

Galatians chapter 4 explains the same concept found in the Revelation. But instead of the symbols being Babylon and "new" Jerusalem, the symbols are Hagar/Sinai, and Sarah. And they are explained as representing the two COVENANTS and (more specifically) the TWO PEOPLES INVOLVED. The Pauline contrast is between JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY. That is the same contrast, in essence, found in Revelation.

Moreover, the fact is there is no evidence the Revelation was written before AD 70, but all the evidence points to a mid-late 90s authorship. Which means the vision CANNOT POSSIBLY be simply about the AD 70 destruction of the earthly city of Jerusalem.

The language is not identical, but it is similar.

Act 2:16.. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;..
Act 2:17.. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:..

Joe 2:28.. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:..
Joe 2:29.. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit...


Act 15:15.. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,..
Act 15:16.. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:..

Amo 9:11.. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:..


I think one can see it is what is being portrayed in the verses I just posted and is also in the Matt/Rev verses.

Jesus also time stamped that event in the same area in Matt and in another part of Matt.

Mat 23:36.. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation...
Mat 23:37.. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!..

and this one:

Mat 16:28.. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom...

Michael The Disciple
01-02-2019, 07:37 PM
Jesus has come many times throughout the Bible. Most common comings are when He came as a child in Bethlehem, and most Oneness believers believe He came as the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and I know for a fact He came into my life back in 1964, and He came again last Sunday in worship service. He comes and has come in many different ways for many different reasons. Just as he came in judgement in several Old testament accounts, He did come in a judgement against Jerusalem in AD70. I do not believe that is what is commonly taught as "the second coming,' as I see that as in our future.

So do you believe the 2nd coming/rapture is in Rev. 19?

mizpeh
01-02-2019, 07:42 PM
My post should have said "Not Jerusalem 70ad, since Jerusalem is still inhabited. And Jesus is coming back to rule over an inhabited city and not an uninhabited city."

Esaias
01-02-2019, 07:44 PM
The language is not identical, but it is similar.

Act 2:16.. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;..
Act 2:17.. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:..

Joe 2:28.. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:..
Joe 2:29.. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit...


Act 15:15.. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,..
Act 15:16.. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:..

Amo 9:11.. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:..


I think one can see it is what is being portrayed in the verses I just posted and is also in the Matt/Rev verses.

You showed NT authors QUOTING OT SCRIPTURES, and are pointing to differences between an English translation of a Greek quotation of a Greek OT on the one hand, and an English translation of a HEBREW OT on the other? Seriously? Revelation isn't quoting Matthew, nor vice versa.

Jesus also time stamped that event in the same area in Matt and in another part of Matt.

Mat 23:36.. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation...
Mat 23:37.. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!..

Of course He prophesied the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. That, however, is not Revelation 18.

and this one:

Mat 16:28.. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom...

This is not AD 70 material. This has to do with His glorification and Ascension to the throne in fulfillment of Daniel 7. See my thread "The Son of Man" over in the Apostolic Articles section.

I notice you didn't touch the dating of the Revelation issue...

shag
01-03-2019, 05:03 AM
Esaias said: “the fact is that there is NO evidence that the writing of Revelation preceded AD 70”

Rev.11:1-2 speaks of the alter, the court outside the temple (still “standing”).





Makes me think of
Heb. 10:11
OT priesthood still vainly attempting to make sacrifices for sin in the temple, 30 years after Jesus resurrection.(dating of Hebrews)

Michael The Disciple
01-03-2019, 06:22 AM
Esaias said: “the fact is that there is NO evidence that the writing of Revelation preceded AD 70”

Rev.11:1-2 speaks of the alter, the court outside the temple (still “standing”).





Makes me think of
Heb. 10:11
OT priesthood still vainly attempting to make sacrifices for sin in the temple, 30 years after Jesus resurrection.(dating of Hebrews)

If Rev 11 speaks of the first century temple who were the 2 witnesses?

Bowas
01-03-2019, 06:56 AM
You showed NT authors QUOTING OT SCRIPTURES, and are pointing to differences between an English translation of a Greek quotation of a Greek OT on the one hand, and an English translation of a HEBREW OT on the other? Seriously? Revelation isn't quoting Matthew, nor vice versa.



Of course He prophesied the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. That, however, is not Revelation 18.



This is not AD 70 material. This has to do with His glorification and Ascension to the throne in fulfillment of Daniel 7. See my thread "The Son of Man" over in the Apostolic Articles section.

I notice you didn't touch the dating of the Revelation issue...

No. Revelation is not quoting Matt, but they are the same thing. Matt is speaking directly to the people and the city by name, whereas in revelation it is doing the same thing but is using symbolic language to say the same thing.


Actually Rev 18 is in fact referring to Jerusalem's destruction in AD70 and as pre the method of the book, it is using symbolic type language.


Jesus telling them that some of them would not die until the coming of the Son of man surely was referring to AD70.

The dating of Revelation can get bogged down and there are some points to both views, so it seems the internal evidence is what we should try to use to decided. There are several points to indicate an early date writing, not the least of which, the temple is still standing.

Bowas
01-03-2019, 07:04 AM
If Rev 11 speaks of the first century temple who were the 2 witnesses?

Who are the two witnesses or what are the two witnesses. \I doubt they are people as some claim, but represent something.

Maybe Old and New Testament. Maybe law and the prophets. It is also possible and seems more probable it is in fact Jesus. During seige of Jerusalem in AD 70, there was not witness in the city at all, as all the Christians had fled.

here is an article I am considering.


I saw this article and thought it interesting.

I have tried over the years to see who or what the Bible says these two witnesses are.
I had considered, “Spirit and Word,”
as found in Zechariah 4:6, but maybe the two witnesses is quite simply, Jesus.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:4)

The OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTANDS of Revelation 11:4 is a DIRECT reference to the OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTAND of Zechariah 4. The fact that these two olive trees and lampstands of Rev 11:4 “STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH” is a quote of Zechariah 4:14: “These are the TWO ANNOINTED ONES who STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH.” (Zech 4:14) Zechariah 4 is a vision of two olive trees beside a lampstand in which the two olive trees are SAID to SYMBOLIZE “TWO ANNOINTED ONES” who are clearly identified in Zechariah 3 and 4 as Zerubbabel and Joshua--the KING and HIGH PRIEST.

In New Testament times this can ONLY be one person, JESUS CHRIST who as MESSIAH is KING and HIGH PRIEST as stated in Hebrews 5:10 and 7:1. The fact that Rev 11:4 is a virtual quote of Zechariah 4 in nearly every detail. And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lampstand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4. And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

Apostolic1ness
01-03-2019, 07:28 AM
Who are the two witnesses or what are the two witnesses. \I doubt they are people as some claim, but represent something.

Maybe Old and New Testament. Maybe law and the prophets. It is also possible and seems more probable it is in fact Jesus. During seige of Jerusalem in AD 70, there was not witness in the city at all, as all the Christians had fled.

here is an article I am considering.


I saw this article and thought it interesting.

I have tried over the years to see who or what the Bible says these two witnesses are.
I had considered, “Spirit and Word,”
as found in Zechariah 4:6, but maybe the two witnesses is quite simply, Jesus.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:4)

The OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTANDS of Revelation 11:4 is a DIRECT reference to the OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTAND of Zechariah 4. The fact that these two olive trees and lampstands of Rev 11:4 “STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH” is a quote of Zechariah 4:14: “These are the TWO ANNOINTED ONES who STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH.” (Zech 4:14) Zechariah 4 is a vision of two olive trees beside a lampstand in which the two olive trees are SAID to SYMBOLIZE “TWO ANNOINTED ONES” who are clearly identified in Zechariah 3 and 4 as Zerubbabel and Joshua--the KING and HIGH PRIEST.

In New Testament times this can ONLY be one person, JESUS CHRIST who as MESSIAH is KING and HIGH PRIEST as stated in Hebrews 5:10 and 7:1. The fact that Rev 11:4 is a virtual quote of Zechariah 4 in nearly every detail. And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lampstand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4. And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.
will Jesus die more than once? the two witnesses are clearly not Jesus. Rev 11:8 says their bodies shall lie in the street of the great city where Jesus was crucified. also their bodies will not be put in graves. come on guys.....

Bowas
01-03-2019, 07:47 AM
[/B]
will Jesus die more than once? the two witnesses are clearly not Jesus. Rev 11:8 says their bodies shall lie in the street of the great city where Jesus was crucified. also their bodies will not be put in graves. come on guys.....

No, Jesus will not die more than once, but his word was dead in Jerusalem for 3.5 years during the Gentile siege of Jerusalem in AD70.
You are aware the book of revelation is a book of symbols and imagery that is not to be taken as literal descriptions, but rather literal events described in symbolic language as being "signified."

Rev 1:1.. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John:..

Did you notice the same phraseology being used in Revelation is also found in Zech?

Lamp stands, Candlesticks, who stands before the Lord?

Apostolic1ness
01-03-2019, 08:25 AM
No, Jesus will not die more than once, but his word was dead in Jerusalem for 3.5 years during the Gentile siege of Jerusalem in AD70.
You are aware the book of revelation is a book of symbols and imagery that is not to be taken as literal descriptions, but rather literal events described in symbolic language as being "signified."

Rev 1:1.. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John:..

Did you notice the same phraseology being used in Revelation is also found in Zech?

Lamp stands, Candlesticks, who stands before the Lord?

I think we can use the "everything is a symbol" excuse to hide the fact that we dont know. You can find the similar phrases on just about any topic you want. Not everything is a symbol and quite a bit of revelation self reveals the symbols used. Does the scripture say that God's word was dead for 3.5 years? What does God's word say about itself? does it not endure forever? We could just be honest and say we dont really know or we can continue to twist and turn and apply until we confuse ourselves and all that hear us.

Michael The Disciple
01-03-2019, 11:40 AM
Bowas

Who are the two witnesses or what are the two witnesses. \I doubt they are people as some claim, but represent something.

Maybe Old and New Testament. Maybe law and the prophets.

Maybe.

But what about specifically?

Rev. 11:2-12

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Plural not singular. TWO PROPHETS.

Michael The Disciple
01-03-2019, 11:49 AM
Literal prophets who are here on earth and living, can "stand before the Lord"

1 Kings 17:1

1And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

Not saying Elijah will be one of the two witnesses but just making a point.

Sometimes the "spiritual" or "symbolic" points to the "literal".

Elijah was a literal prophet who was spiritually standing before God's throne.

Michael The Disciple
01-03-2019, 11:55 AM
Bowas

And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lampstand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4.
And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

Does THIS mean WE are Jesus Christ?

Rev 1:5-6

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.

shag
01-03-2019, 12:45 PM
If Rev 11 speaks of the first century temple who were the 2 witnesses?

Beats me, that was way before my time :D

Esaias
01-03-2019, 11:40 PM
Esaias said: “the fact is that there is NO evidence that the writing of Revelation preceded AD 70”

Rev.11:1-2 speaks of the alter, the court outside the temple (still “standing”).


Please explain? You understand it to be speaking literally of the literal altar at Herod's temple?

Also please explain how Revelation mentioning altar and temple proves anything regarding when it was written?

Esaias
01-04-2019, 12:07 AM
No. Revelation is not quoting Matt, but they are the same thing. Matt is speaking directly to the people and the city by name, whereas in revelation it is doing the same thing but is using symbolic language to say the same thing.

What you've just done is called "begging the question". You assert they are the same thing (I guess by that you mean referring to the same people, city, time, and events?) yet have not shown that to be the case, you are just reasserting your claim.


Actually Rev 18 is in fact referring to Jerusalem's destruction in AD70 and as pre the method of the book, it is using symbolic type language.

Well, yes, that's what you have been claiming (but not demonstrating).

Can you explain the following?

In Revelation 18 Babylon is destroyed, apparently by the ten horns of the Beast. Immediately after that the Battle of Armageddon occurs.

In AD70 Jerusalem was destroyed by Roman armies. Who were the ten horns representing? And what event, AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem, corresponded to Armageddon and the destruction of both the Beast and the False Prophet?

If Rev 18 is the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, then what is Rev 19 referring to? Also, why do you assert the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem was a/the "coming of the Lord" if there is no coming of the Lord described in Rev 18, but rather in Rev 19 AFTER the destruction of Babylon, during which the two Beasts are destroyed?

My suggestion to you is that the prophecies do not match actual history, so then either the prophecies themselves are false, or your interpretation of the prophecies is in error. Of course, I lean towards the latter. :)


Jesus telling them that some of them would not die until the coming of the Son of man surely was referring to AD70.

Surely it did not. See? I can make assertions with no evidence as well. Of course, I DID refer you to a thread I made which explains in depth WHY I believe my assertion is correct, but I suspect you did not read it.

The dating of Revelation can get bogged down and there are some points to both views, so it seems the internal evidence is what we should try to use to decided. There are several points to indicate an early date writing, not the least of which, the temple is still standing.

Nonsense. There is nothing to suggest Revelation was written prior to AD70, and everything suggests otherwise, that it was written in the last decade of the first century. There is no "bogging down" except when people don't want to go where the evidence plainly and necessarily leads because they know it completely overthrows their whole view of Revelation.

As for the temple still standing (I assume you mean Rev 11?), I guess in the midst of all the symbolism we are to suddenly and inexplicably switch gears and go strictly literal?

Okay, let's do that, shall we?

When did the apostle John literally measure Herod's Temple while simultaneously being in exile on Patmos? How did he not get executed immediately for trespassing in the sanctuary, since he was not a priest? And why did he need to, since everyone knew the exact measurements of the Temple anyway already?

Also, apparently the prophecy was for the gentiles to have the court outside the temple, thus the sanctuary and altar would be protected. But that's not what actually and literally happened, is it?

And when were there literally two witnesses/prophets calling down fire from heaven and smiting the earth with literal plagues, fire coming out of their mouths, etc? To be preaching for 3.5 years, then killed by a seven headed monster, dead for three and a half days, literally resurrected, then ascend to heaven in front of everyone? Which causes a literal earthquake that wipes out 10% of the city?

When did all of this happen? Godzilla vs Rodan? Really?

Or is everything symbolic EXCEPT that one little part that you say proves Revelation was written before AD 70? A little too convenient, perhaps?

Esaias
01-04-2019, 12:21 AM
No, Jesus will not die more than once, but his word was dead in Jerusalem for 3.5 years during the Gentile siege of Jerusalem in AD70.

Rev 11:3 says the two witnesses preach for 1,260 days (3.5 years). Looks like you're confused?

You are aware the book of revelation is a book of symbols and imagery that is not to be taken as literal descriptions,

Except when it suits you, like "temple still standing"?


but rather literal events described in symbolic language as being "signified."

What was Armageddon? The one AFTER Jerusalem's destruction? Oh, and is New Jerusalem also a literal city, like Babylon?


Did you notice the same phraseology being used in Revelation is also found in Zech?

Lamp stands, Candlesticks, who stands before the Lord?

Well, I think I noticed you seem to be all over the place, 10 miles wide but only one inch deep. I'm not trying to be mean, but seriously, your presentation here is about on the same level as Jack Van Impe (y'all driving the same car, he's gone into a trance staring at the horizon in the windshield, and you dozed off staring at the horizon in the rear view mirror).

You really should read that thread I mentioned, it'll do you good. :)

Bowas
01-04-2019, 06:49 AM
I think we can use the "everything is a symbol" excuse to hide the fact that we dont know. You can find the similar phrases on just about any topic you want. Not everything is a symbol and quite a bit of revelation self reveals the symbols used. Does the scripture say that God's word was dead for 3.5 years? What does God's word say about itself? does it not endure forever? We could just be honest and say we dont really know or we can continue to twist and turn and apply until we confuse ourselves and all that hear us.

If you read what I write, I admit I don't have all the answers. If you don't like what I think I see, either show me I am wrong or ignore me. I said, and gave some examples of what the two witnesses may be, but I am quite certain they are not two men.

What is a witness? Who may be a witness? I gave scripture from Zechariah that are a key to the puzzle no doubt.

Here is a couple of more witnesses, which may further support Jesus is what's being referred to in Rev 11.

Joh_8:18.. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Bowas
01-04-2019, 06:54 AM
Maybe.

But what about specifically?

Rev. 11:2-12

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Plural not singular. TWO PROPHETS.


Consider this again with your point of the "they." (it doesn't say "prophets. That's man's interjection)


Zechariah 4:6, maybe the two witnesses is quite simply, Jesus.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:4)

The OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTANDS of Revelation 11:4 is a DIRECT reference to the OLIVE TREES and LAMPSTAND of Zechariah 4.

The fact that these two olive trees and lampstands of Rev 11:4 “STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH” is a quote of Zechariah 4:14: “These are the TWO ANNOINTED ONES who STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE EARTH.”

(Zech 4:14) Zechariah 4 is a vision of two olive trees beside a lampstand in which the two olive trees are SAID to SYMBOLIZE “TWO ANNOINTED ONES” who are clearly identified in Zechariah 3 and 4 as Zerubbabel and Joshua--the KING and HIGH PRIEST.

In New Testament times this can ONLY be one person, JESUS CHRIST who as MESSIAH is KING and HIGH PRIEST as stated in Hebrews 5:10 and 7:1.

The fact that Rev 11:4 is a virtual quote of Zechariah 4 in nearly every detail. And in Zechariah 4 the olive trees and lamp stand represent the king and high priest, this strongly implies that the same meaning is intended in Rev 11:4. And if that is TRUE the two witnesses cannot be ANYONE other than JESUS CHRIST.

Michael The Disciple
01-04-2019, 07:01 AM
Bowas

Consider this again with your point of the "they." (it doesn't say "prophets. That's man's interjection)

Really?

Rev 11:10

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two prophets.

Apostolic1ness
01-04-2019, 07:16 AM
In Zechariah 4 the two olive trees are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. Where is it found that these two are the king and the priest?

Bowas
01-04-2019, 07:37 AM
Really?

Rev 11:10

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two prophets.

True. It does say prophets, but they are identified also as two candlesticks, two olive trees, two witnesses which takes us back to Zech 4, where they are the anointed ones and Zech calls them King and High priest. Who, in all of scripture can be identified as more than one office, yet be One? The entire book of Revelation is confined to the first verse.

Rev 1:1.. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Apostolic1ness
01-04-2019, 08:12 AM
True. It does say prophets, but they are identified also as two candlesticks, two olive trees, two witnesses which takes us back to Zech 4, where they are the anointed ones and Zech calls them King and High priest. Who, in all of scripture can be identified as more than one office, yet be One? The entire book of Revelation is confined to the first verse.

Rev 1:1.. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Each time High Priest is used in Zechariah it is conjoined to a name Joshua and Josedech.

I dont see where Zech calls the candlestick or olive trees King and priest. can you provide the text.

Michael The Disciple
01-04-2019, 09:32 AM
The saints of God are kings and priests.

Rev 1:5-6

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.

Esaias
01-04-2019, 03:43 PM
Each time High Priest is used in Zechariah it is conjoined to a name Joshua and Josedech.

I dont see where Zech calls the candlestick or olive trees King and priest. can you provide the text.

This tends to happen when people build their eschatology from soundbites off the internet/books/conferences. They hear ideas, they like them, they run with them, but don't really look too closely at them.

Happens in a lot of other areas, too. Sign o' the times.

Esaias
01-04-2019, 04:08 PM
I vote no. It seems to happen about the time Jesus comes. Some will say it was Jerusalem ad 70 I'm sure. If so they have a "gap" problem every bit as big as the "dispensationalists".

The thing is we need to be careful about assuming how long a vision takes to be fulfilled, how long it lasts, and how long between visions, without specific statements in the text.

Bowas
01-05-2019, 11:39 AM
Each time High Priest is used in Zechariah it is conjoined to a name Joshua and Josedech.

I dont see where Zech calls the candlestick or olive trees King and priest. can you provide the text.

Yes. Joshua and Josedech are types of the real Jesus.

Zec 3:1.. And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD,...

Zec 4:14.. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth...

Bowas
01-05-2019, 11:52 AM
The thing is we need to be careful about assuming how long a vision takes to be fulfilled, how long it lasts, and how long between visions, without specific statements in the text.

The time it takes for the prophecies to come to past quite often is embedded in the context.




Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev_1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END.
And then…
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.


1Jn 2:18 Little children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there many antichrists; whereby WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME.

All I know is what the Apostles knew, and if they are wrong, then the Bible is wrong, as they declared multiple times they were in the last days/times.

They are correct.


I have seen no viable (BIBLICAL) alternative opinion as to who the two witnesses were, just opinions. Mine is an opinion as well that seems at this time to at least have some scripture to try to reveal who/what are the witnesses/olive trees/candlesticks/prophets may represent.

Esaias
01-05-2019, 05:31 PM
Bowas, here's the score:

1. You said calling the two witnesses "prophets" was man's interjection. You were adamant they were not scripturally called prophets. But as MTD pointed out, they are explicitly called prophets. Strike one.

2. You said ch 11 teaches the "voice of God was silent in Jerusalem for 3.5 years", but the scripture states they prophesied in the city for 1,260 days - 3.5 years. Strike two.

3. You said the book is symbolic, and the witnesses are symbolic. But the city is literal? With no rationale as to how to distinguish one from the other? Strike three.

4. You said Rev 18 was the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, but you can't explain what happened after (Armageddon, ch 19, destruction of Beasts, etc)? Strike four.

5. You don't want to deal with the dating issue. Strike five.

6. You said the time texts put it all in the first century, but didn't you say the "second coming" was still in the future? Strike six.

You've been up to bat twice, and struck out both times. Maybe you should rethink your position? Just saying.

Esaias
01-05-2019, 06:25 PM
As for the identity of the Two Witnesses, the Bible tells us quite a bit.

They aren't just witnesses, but "My" witnesses, that is, God's. Whom does God say are His witnesses?

Isaiah 43:10, 43:12, and 44:8 specify that the sons of Jacob are God's witnesses in this world as to His Sovereignty and Lordship.

The sons of Jacob consisted of two Houses: The House of Judah, consisting of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin and some of Levi, and the House of Israel, consisting of the other ten tribes led by Ephraim. And thus the House of Israel was also called Ephraim, and Joseph, after the predominant tribe, just as the House of Judah was called Judah after its predominant tribe.

The Two Houses were to be joined together as one under Messiah. The Two Witnesses are new covenant witnesses (as per the context of Revelation and the NT, because apart from Christ one is not a witness for God).

The reuniting of both Houses under Messiah to proclaim His truth to the nations is a major theme in Bible prophecy, both old and new testaments.

Jeremiah 11:16 calls Judah God's planted "green olive tree". Since God also planted the House of Israel, they too would be one of God's "olive trees". Thus God's two olive trees connected with being a witness to Him.

In Zechariah, the seer has a vision of a candlestick, and two olive trees on either side of it. The candlestick is essentially a menorah, seven lamped, and represents the light of God's truth. The two olive trees are witnesses of God's truth, and the oil that supplies the candlestick so it may be lit and give light originates from the olive trees. Thus the anointing OIL that is in the olive trees is the anointing upon the two witnesses by means of which the light of God's Word and Truth shines forth in this world.

The two anointed ones are the Houses of Israel and Judah, as it written in Psalm 105, where the people of God are identified as Jehovah's anointed. Anointing is for priesthood, and kingship. As Israel was called to be a kingdom of priests (Ex 19:6), and as the two Houses were together Jehovah's Dominion (kingship) and Sanctuary (priesthood) in this earth - Psalm 114:1-2.

The House of Israel was divorced by God for their idolatries and declared to not be His people (Hosea 1:9). This made them "gentiles". But they were prophesied to one day be called "sons of the living God" (Hosea 1:10) and would be joined together with Judah under Messiah (Hosea 1:11) as one people. Paul said this was being fulfilled in his day (Romans 9:25-26).

So the Two Witnesses are an apocalyptic representation of New Covenant Israel speaking forth the Word of God and pronouncing the Divine Judgments of God upon the heathen. They are two Houses, olive trees, planted by God, anointed as kings and priests by identification with Christ their Priest-King, representing God to an unbelieving world.

Esaias
01-08-2019, 11:04 AM
So... that's that, I guess?

lol

Apostolic1ness
01-08-2019, 11:18 AM
So... that's that, I guess?

lol

Is the church included? Dont leave us out we have been grafted in. Are we a part of the olive tree.

Esaias
01-08-2019, 11:33 AM
Is the church included? Dont leave us out we have been grafted in. Are we a part of the olive tree.

New covenant Israel is the church, and vice versa. Anyone else (besides Israelites) who exercises faith can also enter the new covenant (Isaiah 56:8).

Apostolic1ness
01-08-2019, 12:40 PM
New covenant Israel is the church, and vice versa. Anyone else (besides Israelites) who exercises faith can also enter the new covenant (Isaiah 56:8).

what do you mean "besides Israelites"?
so is the church the two witnesses?
or are the two witnesses the church and a future believing group of Jews?

Esaias
01-08-2019, 12:45 PM
Is the church included? Dont leave us out we have been grafted in. Are we a part of the olive tree.

Wanted to respond a bit more in depth. The church is God's ecclesia, or qahal, congregation. That congregation is Israel, and is composed of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israelites, all 12 tribes). Ten of those tribes were divorced and cut off in the 8th century BC or thereabouts, and scattered from Palestine by the Assyrians. They were Biblically now "gentiles". These gentiles increased in number and spread abroad. Eventually, they were rejoined with the believing remnant of Judah by faith in Messiah. Or, at least many of them were. These are the "gentiles" and "Greeks" of the New Testament, with but few exceptions (usually stated in the text).

As Isaiah and other OT scriptures indicate, Israel's mission was and is to bring the knowledge of God to ALL nations, tribes, families, tongues, etc. Under both the Old (Mosaic) Covenant and the New (Messianic) Covenant, people of all nations, tribes, families, languages etc were and are being joined to Israel under the headship of Messiah.

Unfortunately, when most people hear or read about Israel, Israelites, etc they automatically think "Jews", and automatically think of the people TODAY known as Jews. But those are all very different terms with very different meanings. Likewise, when they read or hear "gentiles" they assume it means "anyone not descended from Jacob", and apply it to all modern non-Jews. These errors lead to other errors, compounding as one goes.

Esaias
01-08-2019, 12:54 PM
what do you mean "besides Israelites"?
so is the church the two witnesses?
or are the two witnesses the church and a future believing group of Jews?

I posted a response before I read this, and I think it addresses the gist of your question:

Wanted to respond a bit more in depth. The church is God's ecclesia, or qahal, congregation. That congregation is Israel, and is composed of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israelites, all 12 tribes). Ten of those tribes were divorced and cut off in the 8th century BC or thereabouts, and scattered from Palestine by the Assyrians. They were Biblically now "gentiles". These gentiles increased in number and spread abroad. Eventually, they were rejoined with the believing remnant of Judah by faith in Messiah. Or, at least many of them were. These are the "gentiles" and "Greeks" of the New Testament, with but few exceptions (usually stated in the text).

As Isaiah and other OT scriptures indicate, Israel's mission was and is to bring the knowledge of God to ALL nations, tribes, families, tongues, etc. Under both the Old (Mosaic) Covenant and the New (Messianic) Covenant, people of all nations, tribes, families, languages etc were and are being joined to Israel under the headship of Messiah.

Unfortunately, when most people hear or read about Israel, Israelites, etc they automatically think "Jews", and automatically think of the people TODAY known as Jews. But those are all very different terms with very different meanings. Likewise, when they read or hear "gentiles" they assume it means "anyone not descended from Jacob", and apply it to all modern non-Jews. These errors lead to other errors, compounding as one goes.

So, to summarize, the two witnesses are the church, and the church is the reunited Houses of Israel and Judah in Christ (along with anyone else who obeys the Gospel).

Apostolic1ness
01-08-2019, 01:03 PM
I posted a response before I read this, and I think it addresses the gist of your question:



So, to summarize, the two witnesses are the church, and the church is the reunited Houses of Israel and Judah in Christ (along with anyone else who obeys the Gospel).

does the tree and a half days represent three and a half years of tribulation before the resurection? does this corelate with the events spoken of in Rev 18:4 is this the same "come up hither" or "come out of her my people" and then the wrath?

Esaias
01-08-2019, 01:19 PM
does the tree and a half days

Are you Irish? lol, sorry, couldn't help it. :)

represent three and a half years of tribulation before the resurection?

I'm not sure at this point. I haven't gone through the chronology and time sequences in Revelation thoroughly enough to render what I consider a qualified opinion on that, yet. But I'm working on it.

does this corelate with the events spoken of in Rev 18:4 is this the same "come up hither" or "come out of her my people" and then the wrath?

I do not think the "come out of her" is a reference to a rapture. I think it is a general command for God's people to separate from Babylon because her doom is certain, and anyone participating in her sins will receive of that doom. The "wrath of God" was already underway back at least in chapter 16, so I see no indication of any "pre-wrath" scenarios involving chapter 18.

There are obvious connections between 1260 days of the Two Witnesses and the 1260 days/time, times, half a time of the Woman's flight to the wilderness (ch 12), and the 42 months (which is 1260 days or 3.5 years) of the seven headed beast's continuance (ch 13). The 3.5 days of the Witnesses being dead has a symbolic (numerical) connection as well, but I don't see how that could be representing the same actual time period as the 1260 days. That would involve some numerical gymnastics I'm not comfortable with. :)

Esaias
01-08-2019, 01:33 PM
The Two Witnesses are raised "after three days and a half". The language used is straight out of Ezekiel 37:10 (spirit or breath of life entered into them, and they stood upon their feet). Ezekiel seems to be referencing a national restoration or revival of God's people using the symbolism of resurrection, and the correlation between that vision and the one in Revelation 11 seems to confirm that both are speaking about a restoration/revival of God's people (though not necessarily referring to the same exact event).

The time frame echoes that of Hosea 6:2, which likewise seems to be speaking of a national revival and restoration, but which also seems to point towards Christ's resurrection. I believe this is the "scripture" that Jesus and the apostles meant when speaking of Christ rising from the dead on the third day "according to the scripture". So here Israel's raising is accomplished first by Christ's raising, so that we are raised up "together with Him" in a spiritual sense when we are placed in Him via conversion. This looks forward to the actual day of resurrection.

But the time frame in Rev 11 is not exact with either Hosea's, or Christ's. 3.5 days is a bit longer than either, thus indicating some difference. This tends to make me suspect it is referring to a literal time frame of some kind rather than just being a symbolic "memory aid' to get the reader to think back to Hosea.

Apostolic1ness
01-08-2019, 01:57 PM
Are you Irish? lol, sorry, couldn't help it. :)



I'm not sure at this point. I haven't gone through the chronology and time sequences in Revelation thoroughly enough to render what I consider a qualified opinion on that, yet. But I'm working on it.



I do not think the "come out of her" is a reference to a rapture. I think it is a general command for God's people to separate from Babylon because her doom is certain, and anyone participating in her sins will receive of that doom. The "wrath of God" was already underway back at least in chapter 16, so I see no indication of any "pre-wrath" scenarios involving chapter 18.

There are obvious connections between 1260 days of the Two Witnesses and the 1260 days/time, times, half a time of the Woman's flight to the wilderness (ch 12), and the 42 months (which is 1260 days or 3.5 years) of the seven headed beast's continuance (ch 13). The 3.5 days of the Witnesses being dead has a symbolic (numerical) connection as well, but I don't see how that could be representing the same actual time period as the 1260 days. That would involve some numerical gymnastics I'm not comfortable with. :)

German.

in Rev 11 vs11 revival of the Two. vs 12 ascended up to heaven vs 13 earthquake vs 15 7th trumpet vs18 "and thy wrath is come and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,.."

this setting seems to be a picture of the end. also IMO is seems to be the same setting as Rev ch 18 and 19. IMO

Esaias
01-08-2019, 08:24 PM
German.

in Rev 11 vs11 revival of the Two. vs 12 ascended up to heaven vs 13 earthquake vs 15 7th trumpet vs18 "and thy wrath is come and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,.."

this setting seems to be a picture of the end. also IMO is seems to be the same setting as Rev ch 18 and 19. IMO

In the vision the two witnesses are killed, resurrected, and raised up to heaven. These things represent something. The Witnesses represent God's witnessing people, their death by the beast represents a condition or event, their resurrection and ascension likewise. Their resurrection is definitely couched in language from Ezekiel's vision, thus helping establish a similarity of meaning. Thus, their resurrection and subsequent ascension should not be taken to mean God's people (at that time) literally resurrect and ascend to heaven. If we take it that way, then we have broken the flow of the symbolism being employed. And we know it is symbolic because there isn't going to be a literal Gojira monster with seven heads climb out of a bottomless pit and kill them. So, if they are a symbol that represents something, then the events which happen in the vision likewise represent something. And, considering the parallels to Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc, it would seem the events being represented are some kind of decline or oppression or silencing, followed by a sudden and unexpected renewal, and an exaltation. Their renewal seems to presage the destruction of Babylon, although that destruction doesn't happen immediately (rather an earthquake and a 10% destruction happens upon those events, see Rev 11:13).

I believe the time of their witnessing is 1260 years (represented by the 1260 prophetic days) up to their apparent "death" or occlusion. Thus, I do not picture these events as happening within a short space of time "at the end". Rather, they take place across a much larger stretch of time.

Esaias
01-09-2019, 12:38 AM
This has inspired me to do a study on Mystery Babylon. Lord willing, I'll be presenting it this next Sabbath, and I'll post the notes here in this thread.

Apostolic1ness
01-09-2019, 06:19 AM
:thumbsupThis has inspired me to do a study on Mystery Babylon. Lord willing, I'll be presenting it this next Sabbath, and I'll post the notes here in this thread.
:thumbsup

Amanah
01-09-2019, 09:47 AM
This has inspired me to do a study on Mystery Babylon. Lord willing, I'll be presenting it this next Sabbath, and I'll post the notes here in this thread.

:highfive

Esaias
01-10-2019, 12:00 AM
The time it takes for the prophecies to come to past quite often is embedded in the context.




Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev_1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END.
And then…
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.


1Jn 2:18 Little children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there many antichrists; whereby WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME.

All I know is what the Apostles knew, and if they are wrong, then the Bible is wrong, as they declared multiple times they were in the last days/times.

They are correct.




And just a side note regarding "time texts" and "last days" terminology as used in Scripture.

Genesis 49:1 begins a prophecy by Jacob concerning what would happen to his sons "in the last days". This extended prophecy includes such things as Simon and Levi being scattered in Israel. Yet, neither Simeon nor Levi were scattered at all. Rather, their descendants were. Moreover, that scattering of Levi took place during the Conquest. The scattering of Simeon occurred during the centuries that followed.

From this we learn that:

1. The last days began around the time of the Exodus and Conquest of Canaan.

2. Prophecies made to persons concerning them specifically are often fulfilled centuries later in their descendants.

3. There are more than one "last days".

Evang.Benincasa
01-12-2019, 07:12 AM
I don't think it has happened yet, either.
It isn't speaking of the city of Babylon belonging to Nebuchaddrezar which remains uninhabited.
It is in reference to a real, existing city at that time. I think Rome.
Rome still exists and isn't completely abandoned, therefore it hasn't happened yet.
Not Jerusalem 70ad, since Jerusalem is still inhabited. And Jesus is coming back to rule over an uninhabited city.

Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great
t men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

The inhabited is speaking to the originals "Judean, and Israeli remnant. lineages who are no longer are around to voice their opinions. The economic power is the fertile crescent which Israel was the capstone of agriculture. Hence the reason why all empires from Babylon to Rome wanted it.

So, did anyone figure out what economic power Revelation is speaking of if it is yet in the future?

Evang.Benincasa
01-12-2019, 07:13 AM
And just a side note regarding "time texts" and "last days" terminology as used in Scripture.

Genesis 49:1 begins a prophecy by Jacob concerning what would happen to his sons "in the last days". This extended prophecy includes such things as Simon and Levi being scattered in Israel. Yet, neither Simeon nor Levi were scattered at all. Rather, their descendants were. Moreover, that scattering of Levi took place during the Conquest. The scattering of Simeon occurred during the centuries that followed.

From this we learn that:

1. The last days began around the time of the Exodus and Conquest of Canaan.

2. Prophecies made to persons concerning them specifically are often fulfilled centuries later in their descendants.

3. There are more than one "last days".

:highfive

Evang.Benincasa
01-12-2019, 07:18 AM
As for the identity of the Two Witnesses, the Bible tells us quite a bit.

They aren't just witnesses, but "My" witnesses, that is, God's. Whom does God say are His witnesses?

Isaiah 43:10, 43:12, and 44:8 specify that the sons of Jacob are God's witnesses in this world as to His Sovereignty and Lordship.

The sons of Jacob consisted of two Houses: The House of Judah, consisting of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin and some of Levi, and the House of Israel, consisting of the other ten tribes led by Ephraim. And thus the House of Israel was also called Ephraim, and Joseph, after the predominant tribe, just as the House of Judah was called Judah after its predominant tribe.

The Two Houses were to be joined together as one under Messiah. The Two Witnesses are new covenant witnesses (as per the context of Revelation and the NT, because apart from Christ one is not a witness for God).

The reuniting of both Houses under Messiah to proclaim His truth to the nations is a major theme in Bible prophecy, both old and new testaments.

Jeremiah 11:16 calls Judah God's planted "green olive tree". Since God also planted the House of Israel, they too would be one of God's "olive trees". Thus God's two olive trees connected with being a witness to Him.

In Zechariah, the seer has a vision of a candlestick, and two olive trees on either side of it. The candlestick is essentially a menorah, seven lamped, and represents the light of God's truth. The two olive trees are witnesses of God's truth, and the oil that supplies the candlestick so it may be lit and give light originates from the olive trees. Thus the anointing OIL that is in the olive trees is the anointing upon the two witnesses by means of which the light of God's Word and Truth shines forth in this world.

The two anointed ones are the Houses of Israel and Judah, as it written in Psalm 105, where the people of God are identified as Jehovah's anointed. Anointing is for priesthood, and kingship. As Israel was called to be a kingdom of priests (Ex 19:6), and as the two Houses were together Jehovah's Dominion (kingship) and Sanctuary (priesthood) in this earth - Psalm 114:1-2.

The House of Israel was divorced by God for their idolatries and declared to not be His people (Hosea 1:9). This made them "gentiles". But they were prophesied to one day be called "sons of the living God" (Hosea 1:10) and would be joined together with Judah under Messiah (Hosea 1:11) as one people. Paul said this was being fulfilled in his day (Romans 9:25-26).

So the Two Witnesses are an apocalyptic representation of New Covenant Israel speaking forth the Word of God and pronouncing the Divine Judgments of God upon the heathen. They are two Houses, olive trees, planted by God, anointed as kings and priests by identification with Christ their Priest-King, representing God to an unbelieving world.

:highfive

I see the heathen as those who rejected Christ.

Those who rejected the apostles teachings.

Those who killed all who were sent to the vineyard, and finally cast out the son to murder Him.