Missouri Molestation Case

[H2H]

http://www.joplinglobe.com/archivesearch/local_story_235125839.html

http://www.joplinglobe.com/local/local_story_235212756.html

Roy Curtis Huling, 58, a preacher at United Pentecostal Church in Webb City was charged Tuesday.

[Pastor Keith]

http://www.joplinglobe.com/archivesearch/local_story_235125839.html

http://www.joplinglobe.com/local/local_story_235212756.html

Roy Curtis Huling, 58, a preacher at United Pentecostal Church in Webb City was charged Tuesday.

Sorry to hear this, many lives will be ruined by this, either true or false.

[H2H]

Sorry to hear this, many lives will be ruined by this, either true or false.

He has confessed to this being true. I am very sorry to hear this myself.

"The probable-cause statement says that during the interview, Huling confessed to “cupping” the girl’s breast and rubbing her vaginal area “skin to skin” when she was 10 or 11 years old for “emotional and sexual gratification.”

At that point, Huling reportedly agreed to write a letter to the girl and her mother, in which he noted his apology for the incidents and agreed that the girl’s statements were accurate."

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I am sorry to hear this, but nothing surprises me anymore. I hope he doesn't get backed up by the good ole boy network.

[Ferd]

he was released on 10K bond?

hang the judge.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

he was released on 10K bond?

hang the judge.

Ridiculous bond amount. If he has the backing of the good ole boy network, he might get away with it.

[H2H]

he was released on 10K bond?

hang the judge.

There has been some outrage about this in the community.

[H2H]

Ridiculous bond amount. If he has the backing of the good ole boy network, he might get away with it.

What on earth are you talking about?? HE CONFESSED.

No one is fighting it - I guess that is one reason they posted a lower amount - It does not make sense to me either.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Pastor out on bond in molestation case w/ copy of State of Missouri v. Roy Curtis Huling and the statement of probable cause

By Greg Grisolano

ggrisolano@joplinglobe.com

Promising “I won’t tell if you don’t,” a church pastor, the Rev. Roy Curtis Huling, allegedly molested a young girl periodically for more than two years.

The girl, now 13, reported the alleged acts earlier this month.

Huling, 58, pastor at First United Pentecostal Church, 1426 Crow St. in Webb City, is charged with a felony count of first-degree child molestation. He has been released from custody at the Jasper County Jail after posting $10,000 bail.

In a probable-cause affidavit on file with Jasper County Circuit Court, authorities allege that Huling first had contact with the girl sometime in August 2003. The acts are alleged to have taken place at the pastor’s home, 3715 E. 16th St. in Duquesne, periodically until February 2006.

The document says the girl alleged that Huling “put his hands in my pants,” and “picked me up and moved me up and down” while holding her against his body.

A woman who identified herself as a church spokeswoman answered the phone at Huling’s house and declined to comment, referring all questions to Ross Rhoades, a Neosho attorney. A message left at Rhoades’ office Thursday was not returned.

Huling has been the pastor of the church since 1987, according to the church’s Web site. For a short time, church services were held in the Hulings’ mobile home before the location on Crow Street was obtained. The Web site states that Huling has been married for 29 years.

Duquesne police Chief Tommy Kitch and Jason Wininger of the state Children’s Division interviewed Huling earlier this week at the Webb City police station.

The probable-cause statement says that during the interview, Huling confessed to “cupping” the girl’s breast and rubbing her vaginal area “skin to skin” when she was 10 or 11 years old for “emotional and sexual gratification.”

At that point, Huling reportedly agreed to write a letter to the girl and her mother, in which he noted his apology for the incidents and agreed that the girl’s statements were accurate.

Kitch said it is not unusual for an incident of molestation to go unreported for a year or more because victims often are embarrassed or feel responsible.

“The victim’s age played right into that,” he said. “Kids don’t want to tell you when something bad has happened.”

The case remains under investigation by the Duquesne Police Department.

More charges possible


Although the probable-cause affidavit alleges that a young girl might have been molested at least three times, Jasper County Prosecutor Dean Dankelson said Thursday that the Rev. Roy Curtis Huling has been charged with only one count so far.

“We’ve only filed one charge at this time,” Dankelson said. “When the investigation file is complete and submitted to us, we’ll evaluate the possibility of adding more charges.”

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

What on earth are you talking about?? HE CONFESSED.

No one is fighting it - I guess that is one reason they posted a lower amount - It does not make sense to me either.

The GOOD OLE BOY network can sometimes work wonders at helping people get away with things.

[H2H]

The GOOD OLE BOY network can sometimes work wonders at helping people get away with things.

Well I think he blew that route when he confessed.

[Sam]

I do not mean to be judgmental or guilty of evil surmising but I can't help but wonder if there are not other victims. If so, I hope that those incidents will now be brought to light and the man will be dealt with appropriately by the civil law.

[Ferd]

anybody with any sense at all, will want this guy doing prison ministry for the next 50 years,.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Well I think he blew that route when he confessed.

I certainly hope you are correct, but I never underestimate the ability of those in power in good ole boy networks.

[Scott Hutchinson]

What drives a man to sink this low ?

[H2H]

Sam and Ferd - My thoughts exactly.

[H2H]

What drives a man to sink this low ?

A question that may have multiple answers - none of which go any length to justify the deeds.

[H2H]

I certainly hope you are correct, but I never underestimate the ability of those in power in good ole boy networks.

As bad as I hate to say it... There is a certain amount of respect (using the word very loosely) for coming clean and confessing upfront - supposing he is guilty of course.

[Sam]

I hope we've all taken some time to pray for that little girl and her family and also for a brother who has sinned.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

As bad as I hate to say it... There is a certain amount of respect (using the word very loosely) for coming clean and confessing upfront - supposing he is guilty of course.

Yes, Satan himself admits to believing in One God. Does that justify him? That is a rhetorical question. I don't expect an answer and wasn't directing it to you concerning this man in Missouri.

[Scott Hutchinson]

A question that may have multiple answers - none of which go any great length to justify the deeds.

There is no justfication for behaviour like this.

[H2H]

I hope we've all taken some time to pray for that little girl and her family and also for a brother who has sinned.

You are right of course... but this is a very hard thing!

[LadyChocolate]

anybody with any sense at all, will want this guy doing prison ministry for the next 50 years,.
AMEN AMEN and AMEN
What drives a man to sink this low ?

A sick, very sick mind.... Demonic Possession.... He lost the title of "man" when he did this....

[J-Roc]

I do not mean to be judgmental or guilty of evil surmising but I can't help but wonder if there are not other victims. If so, I hope that those incidents will now be brought to light and the man will be dealt with appropriately by the civil law.



You mean criminal law.

[H2H]

There is no justfication for behaviour like this.

Amen.

[J-Roc]

I certainly hope you are correct, but I never underestimate the ability of those in power in good ole boy networks.


I don't think it is fair to say that anyone will back him up considering he has admitted to it and nobody is defending him...

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I don't think it is fair to say that anyone will back him up considering he has admitted to it and nobody is defending him...

I didn't say anyone would. I said I hope they don't. Or that's what I meant to say. I've seen the good ole boy network defend the guilty, but let's hope that doesn't happen here.

[ILG]

The GOOD OLE BOY network can sometimes work wonders at helping people get away with things.

I've seen a lot of the good ole boy network, but never after a confession of clear guilt.

[J-Roc]

I didn't say anyone would. I said I hope they don't. Or that's what I meant to say. I've seen the good ole boy network defend the guilty, but let's hope that doesn't happen here.

Well you've made 4 or 5 references to the "good ole boy's network" which leads me to believe that is exactly what you anticipate....I'm just saying don't rush to judgment...if you see it happen then I'll be right next to you flipping over 500 pound tables (I never verified this but I had heard that the tables Jesus turned over in the temple when he flipped out on the jews were around 500 pounds, either way it sounds good being 500 lbs....oh the drama).

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Well you've made 4 or 5 references to the "good ole boy's network" which leads me to believe that is exactly what you anticipate....I'm just saying don't rush to judgment...if you see it happen then I'll be right next to you flipping over 500 pound tables (I never verified this but I had heard that the tables Jesus turned over in the temple when he flipped out on the jews were around 500 pounds, either way it sounds good....oh the drama).

Honestly, I'm hoping this won't happen and I am not anticipating it since there has been a confession. Injustice has been so prevalent in the church and in the court system in the past few years that I look at this type of situation with acute trepidation. Forgive me if I came on so strongly. Yes, but wonder what would have happened if he hadn't confessed? (Rhetorical question) No answer expected.

[Margies3]

Sometimes I wonder if this kind of person might be the ones that Jesus was talking about when he said that if someone 'offended' a little one like this it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck..................... You all know which verse I'm refreing to.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Sometimes I wonder if this kind of person might be the ones that Jesus was talking about when he said that if someone 'offended' a little one like this it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck..................... You all know which verse I'm refreing to.

I think what he did goes beyond being offensive, margies3, but I agree about the millstone.

[RandyWayne]

Just wait.... Pretty soon the parents of this girl will be the villains to many for not "forgiving" and for pressing charges.
THAT is what I consider the Good Ole Boys network.

[J-Roc]

Honestly, I'm hoping this won't happen and I am not anticipating it since there has been a confession. Injustice has been so prevalent in the church and in the court system in the past few years that I look at this type of situation with acute trepidation. Forgive me if I came on so strongly. Yes, but wonder what would have happened if he hadn't confessed? (Rhetorical question) No answer expected.


Then we'd have to follow the rule of law and everyone is presumed innocent til proven guilty....not for nothing, but Pastors are vulnerable targets to these kind of accusations and some are certainly false accusations. I've witnessed a similar terrible and false accusation in the church sparked up by a demon-possessed woman...and I saw how ugly it can get even when the accused is absolutely innocent. Let the case take its course and let God bring things to light...may the truth prevail.

[LadyChocolate]

Sometimes I wonder if this kind of person might be the ones that Jesus was talking about when he said that if someone 'offended' a little one like this it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck..................... You all know which verse I'm refreing to.

That is what i thought when i first read this.... YOu know, I have no problem helping to restore a brother (or sister) when they sin... We are commanded to do so.... BUT, to me, when you start messing with children, you are doing more than just "sinning"... please understand what I am trying to say... I can see where a man or woman might get messed up and commit adultery...you know, things like that..... but to mess with children is sooo out there.... I'm not saying there is no mercy, all have that promise each morning... But this is just not another "ooops I messed up" thing... This is a "sicko" thing...

[Margies3]

I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm told that in the prison system, if a person has messed with a child, what they have to go through inside that prison makes them WISH they had a millstone around their neck and were in the bottom of the deep blue sea with it.

[LadyChocolate]

I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm told that in the prison system, if a person has messed with a child, what they have to go through inside that prison makes them WISH they had a millstone around their neck and were in the bottom of the deep blue sea with it.

That is how I have heard it also......

[Newman]

As bad as I hate to say it... There is a certain amount of respect (using the word very loosely) for coming clean and confessing upfront - supposing he is guilty of course.

I have seen several fathers plead guilty to criminal sexual conduct charges in court rather than having to put their child through the court process. I respect them for doing that because it is INCREDIBLY hard for children to testify against someone they love and causes great stress.

I believe the father's choice is motivated by love (too bad his earlier choices were not) because it is generally a difficult case to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt (and the right jury). With a confession the person's fate is sealed.

So, I too respect the fallen minister for doing the honorable thing at this point. :cool:

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Just wait.... Pretty soon the parents of this girl will be the villains to many for not "forgiving" and for pressing charges.
THAT is what I consider the Good Ole Boys network.

What exactly IS the good ole boy network?

The good ole boy network describes a system of social networking and perceptions alleged to exist prevalently among certain communities and social strata in the United States. Although the term originated in the South, these networks can be found throughout the US and the rest of the Western world.

The good ole boy network is typically taken to refer to informal social, religious, business, and political associations among white males ("good ole boys"); however, in modern times can be composed of either or both sexes.

In some areas, the good ole boy network is said to still exert considerable influence over many aspects of local government, business, and law enforcement. Usage of the term can often imply a wrongful exclusion of others from the network; however, often the emphasis is on inclusion of a member, as in, "doing a good ole boy a favor" - or "backing him whether he's right or wrong" as long as it benefits the organization. The good ole boy network is said to manifest itself in institutions such as religious or fraternal organizations, as well as the local bar or community group or basically anywhere good ole boys form an alliance.

Alleged effects of the network include ensuring that the leaders of a community can limit business transactions to other elites, or to friends or acquaintances from within the network, to give friends better deals, and generally to reinforce traditional power structures over any other elements in the society, to maintain the status quo in religious, political, business, or social organizations.

The network also functions like any other social network inasmuch as governmental, business, and professional connections and concessions often develop via mutual friendships and introductions established through the network. All of us have probably seen the good ole boy network in action. That is my summary of how I view the good ole boy network.

[Sam]

Just wait.... Pretty soon the parents of this girl will be the villains to many for not "forgiving" and for pressing charges.
THAT is what I consider the Good Ole Boys network.

A couple of years ago there was a case in the area of Racine, WI where this happened. I read about it in some online articles. It had some interest to me since I used to live in that area but did not know the pastor nor the church. A young girl had been sexually molested and when the pastor was informed he told the parents to not say anything about it. They didn't but an aunt heard about it later and reported it and it went to court. The man had come from elsewhere in the state and had a record of molesting another child. Evidently the pastor in Racine did not know about that when the man came to his church later. I realize God can forgive sex molestation by pastors, youth leaders, teachers, etc. but I do believe that when this happens in a church it should be reported to the local law enforcement agency and dealt with. Even though forgiven by God, I think the person should pay whatever the legal penalty is and should be registered as a sex offender for the rest of his/her life. I do not think it would be right for a person like that to ever be in a church position where there would be any contact with children. I also think any potential Sunday School teacher, youth leader, church bus driver, etc should pass a background check through the police or legal system. Even in the light of 1 Cor. chapter 6 I think situations like this should be reported to and handled by civil authorities. I think 1 Cor. 6 refers to church squabbles and problems between members and not things that are covered by civil law.

[H2H]

I have seen several fathers plead guilty to criminal sexual conduct charges in court rather than having to put their child through the court process. I respect them for doing that because it is INCREDIBLY hard for children to testify against someone they love and causes great stress.

I believe the father's choice is motivated by love (too bad his earlier choices were not) because it is generally a difficult case to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt (and the right jury). With a confession the person's fate is sealed.

So, I too respect the fallen minister for doing the honorable thing at this point. :cool:

True - I understand this was not his own daughter but she was very close to the family.

[Margies3]

I agree with you, Newman. I respect the man for confessing. That couldn't have been easy to do either.

That does NOT change the fact tho that I sincerely hope and pray that he has to serve the maximum penalty for his crime.

This child (and others that there might have been) will be paying for his crime for the rest of their lives. They will never be able to escape what he has done to them and what he has taken from them.

I hope and pray that he honestly repents of his sin before God. But even if he does and even if he is a changed man afterwards and even tho he has already confessed to his crime before the courts - I still believe that the punishment he deserves for something like this should be the maximum allowable.

[Newman]

That is what i thought when i first read this.... YOu know, I have no problem helping to restore a brother (or sister) when they sin... We are commanded to do so.... BUT, to me, when you start messing with children, you are doing more than just "sinning"... please understand what I am trying to say... I can see where a man or woman might get messed up and commit adultery...you know, things like that..... but to mess with children is sooo out there.... I'm not saying there is no mercy, all have that promise each morning... But this is just not another "ooops I messed up" thing... This is a "sicko" thing...

LadyChocolate- I understand where you are coming from. Most probably feel this way. However, many of these cases involve a perpetrator who was once themselves a victim as a child. It is sad all the way around. :cool:

[J-Roc]

Now that we're chatting about the judicial system....what do you find worse:

a) a guilty person that goes free because there was insufficient evidence to convict her; or

b) an innocent person that is convicted and sentenced to prison?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

LadyChocolate- I understand where you are coming from. Most probably feel this way. However, many of these cases involve a perpetrator who was once themselves a victim as a child. It is sad all the way around. :cool:

Abused. Abuser. Abused. Absurer. It continues.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Now that we're chatting about the judicial system....what do you find worse:

a) a guilty person that goes free because there was not sufficient evidence to convict her; or

b) an innocent person that is convicted and sentenced to prison?

This is like asking: Which stinks worse a rotten apple or a rotten orange?

[LadyChocolate]

LadyChocolate- I understand where you are coming from. Most probably feel this way. However, many of these cases involve a perpetrator who was once themselves a victim as a child. It is sad all the way around. :cool:

I understand that too! like the child who was beaten by his drunken father, many times ends up becoming that way himself.... Oh, how this world needs God more than anything...and to think this man stood in the presence of God each Sunday.... when you don't have God in your life, and really don't know who Jesus is, you have no one to help you fight these things or thoughts that torment you.... But when you hear the Word, in a church that preaches truth....... to me it seems like you just deny any conscience at all... you reject any help.... Forgive me if it sounds like I'm throwing stones.... I've done some pretty bad things and I've been raised in church.... But when you involve children in your sin, you need more than forgiveness......you need deliverance.

[CC1]

Years ago I had a coworker who found out after one of his daughters was grown that she was molested by an elderly man in their church.At the time she had gone to the pastor and told him (she was too embarressed to tell her parents) and the pastor made her promise to keep the incident their secret (between the pastor and her), not to tell her parents, and that he would take care of it.Needless to say a decade later when the grown daughter finally told her parents they were less than thrilled that the pastor did not tell them that their daughter had been molested nor had he turned in the molester.This man went from being an elder of many years at his church to attending another chuch in a very short period of time.

[J-Roc]

This is like asking: Which stinks worse a rotten apple or a rotten orange?


I know what you mean, but I would lean a bit more to option B...

we can excuse unintentional *mercy*, but how do you make up for innocent ones in prison?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I know what you mean, but I would lean a bit more to option B...

we can excuse unintentional *mercy*, but how do you make up for innocent ones in prison?

Whatever is the case here, let's not forget that this man, this girl, all of these family members and church family members are suffering. Let's not forget that His blood covers all sin. Repentance and forgiveness are not limited to what we call small sins.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Years ago I had a coworker who found out after one of his daughters was grown that she was molested by an elderly man in their church.At the time she had gone to the pastor and told him (she was too embarressed to tell her parents) and the pastor made her promise to keep the incident their secret (between the pastor and her), not to tell her parents, and that he would take care of it.Needless to say a decade later when the grown daughter finally told her parents they were less than thrilled that the pastor did not tell them that their daughter had been molested nor had he turned in the molester.This man went from being an elder of many years at his church to attending another chuch in a very short period of time.

The good ole boy network can just shuffle people around the country. I knew this to happen in a nonPentecostal church.

[pelathais]

Ridiculous bond amount. If he has the backing of the good ole boy network, he might get away with it.
Of course there's plenty of time to surprise me, but usually the way it works is once word gets out to the media you're pretty much through. It's too late for "the good ole boy network." Most "good ole boys" are afraid of the light and publicity.

The fact that the guy was apparently in communication with the family and had confessed in writing to them would seem to preclude that he was getting advice from "good ole boys" or even an attorney at the time.

That he has confessed (apparently from the news report) is a good sign. There doesn't appear to be any cover ups here at least not now; just a tragic case and its fallout. I pray that the girl finds some way to overcome the harm and loss that she has had to endure.

[J-Roc]

Years ago I had a coworker who found out after one of his daughters was grown that she was molested by an elderly man in their church.At the time she had gone to the pastor and told him (she was too embarressed to tell her parents) and the pastor made her promise to keep the incident their secret (between the pastor and her), not to tell her parents, and that he would take care of it.Needless to say a decade later when the grown daughter finally told her parents they were less than thrilled that the pastor did not tell them that their daughter had been molested nor had he turned in the molester.This man went from being an elder of many years at his church to attending another chuch in a very short period of time.


Time to turn over some 500 pounders... :mad:

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Of course there's plenty of time to surprise me, but usually the way it works is once word gets out to the media you're pretty much through. It's too late for "the good ole boy network." Most "good ole boys" are afraid of the light and publicity.

The fact that the guy was apparently in communication with the family and had confessed in writing to them would seem to preclude that he was getting advice from "good ole boys" or even an attorney at the time.

That he has confessed (apparently from the news report) is a good sign. There doesn't appear to be any cover ups here at least not now; just a tragic case and its fallout. I pray that the girl finds some way to overcome the harm and loss that she has had to endure.

I agree. If he hadn't confessed though you never know how much part the good ole boy network might have been in the picture.

[H2H]

Now that we're chatting about the judicial system....what do you find worse:

a) a guilty person that goes free because there was insufficient evidence to convict her; or

b) an innocent person that is convicted and sentenced to prison?

b

[J-Roc]

Whatever is the case here, let's not forget that this man, this girl, all of these family members and church family members are suffering. Let's not forget that His blood covers all sin. Repentance and forgiveness are not limited to what we call small sins.


Well, for his sake, he should be suffering...nothing worse than someone that is apathetic toward this....the least he can do is be contrite.

[chosenbyone]

I agree with you, Newman. I respect the man for confessing. That couldn't have been easy to do either.

That does NOT change the fact tho that I sincerely hope and pray that he has to serve the maximum penalty for his crime.

This child (and others that there might have been) will be paying for his crime for the rest of their lives. They will never be able to escape what he has done to them and what he has taken from them.

I hope and pray that he honestly repents of his sin before God. But even if he does and even if he is a changed man afterwards and even tho he has already confessed to his crime before the courts - I still believe that the punishment he deserves for something like this should be the maximum allowable.


Margie,

This man shouldn't be respected for confessing the crimes he committed against this innocent child. He molested her over a period of years and the only reason he confessed was because he was caught.

This child has to carry this with her the rest of her life and the damage wrought to her has many levels - physical, emotional and spiritual.

[J-Roc]

I pray that the girl finds some way to overcome the harm and loss that she has had to endure.


I pray she does not blame God, the clergy, the church, christianity and the like.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Well, for his sake, he should be suffering...nothing worse than someone that is apathetic toward this....the least he can do is be contrite.

I agree. I was just saying all involved need prayer. You have to feel for his congregation and more so for this child and the child's family and even his own family.

[J-Roc]

A jail sentence is not the only thing he is facing...he could have blood on his hands if this girl does not overcome.

[J-Roc]

At any rate, I invite my UC bruthas/pastors to join the outcry...where are they?

[LadyChocolate]

A jail sentence is not the only thing he is facing...he could have blood on his hands if this girl does not overcome.

Hmm... not defending this by no means, but if he repents, truely repents and finds forgiveness from God, then he will still have blood on his hands if she doesn't over come? not trying to be contrary, but just trying to understand. Is that the same as when one is hurt by the ministry in other ways and they lose out because they could not get over the hurt... Is the blood still on the ministries hands?

[Newman]

The good ole boy network can just shuffle people around the country. I knew this to happen in a nonPentecostal church.

Well, I think the days of shuffling people around the country, sweeping the matter under the carpet, and looking the other way are OVER. Too much potential liability now days to do so. :cool:

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I pray she does not blame God, the clergy, the church, christianity and the like.

Once a preacher commits a crime, even if it's not a sexual crime, the confidence level goes to nihil, nada, naught, null, zilch, zip, ZERO. People look at the preacher as God's messenger and relate the messenger to the one who gave the message and do blame God sometimes. That's when it really hurts. I've seen it happen. The anger is displaced from person to God sometimes. Sad, but true.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Well, I think the days of shuffling people around the country, sweeping the matter under the carpet, and looking the other way are OVER. Too much potential liability now days to do so. :cool:

I wouldn't say they are over but maybe improving.

[J-Roc]

Hmm... not defending this by no means, but if he repents, truely repents and finds forgiveness from God, then he will still have blood on his hands if she doesn't over come? not trying to be contrary, but just trying to understand. Is that the same as when one is hurt by the ministry in other ways and they lose out because they could not get over the hurt... Is the blood still on the ministries hands?


Let's just say it isnt safe to play with fire...I dont know the answer, but it sure is flirting with danger...too close to the precipice

[RandyWayne]

Hmm... not defending this by no means, but if he repents, truely repents and finds forgiveness from God, then he will still have blood on his hands if she doesn't over come? not trying to be contrary, but just trying to understand. Is that the same as when one is hurt by the ministry in other ways and they lose out because they could not get over the hurt... Is the blood still on the ministries hands?

I believe you completely when you say YOUR not defending this but this is the start of making the victim the villain for not "forgiving" the guilty or learning to deal with it, while the guilty is "forgiven" by all manner of people who don't even have the authority to do it on the part of the vic, but proceed to act all self-righteous about it. I've seen it in the Ohio case as well as other molestation cases.

[J-Roc]

Once a preacher commits a crime, even if it's not a sexual crime, the confidence level goes to nihil, nada, naught, null, zilch, zip, ZERO. People look at the preacher as God's messenger and relate the messenger to the one who gave the message and do blame God sometimes. That's when it really hurts. I've seen it happen. The anger is displaced from person to God sometimes. Sad, but true.


Perhaps teachings from the pulpit need to focus and emphasize vertical sight and not horizontal... give honor to whom honor is due, but it should be stressed that humanity fails and divinity never fails...fix our eye sight on Christ should be the goal for every Believer.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Perhaps teachings from the pulpit need to focus and emphasize vertical sight and not horizontal... give honor to whom honor is due, but it should be stressed that humanity fails and divinity never fails...fix our eye sight on Christ should be the goal for every Believer.

This is true but the man standing in the pulpit is God's representative on earth. A child can't see God, but the child can see the man who represents Him. It's hard for a child to make sense of what happens. It's hard for an adult to make sense of what happens in cases like the one mentioned on this thread. Only God can bring about the spiritual healing that is needed.

[H2H]

This sin problem knows no denominational bounds... a case like this hurts far more than those directly involved - though I realize the victim loses the most. It is shameful/humbling to all the other Pentecostal churches in the area and for Christians in general... ...sad indeed.

[RandyWayne]

And I pray to God that higher ups don't try to white wash this and demonize the victims.... But maybe that's going back to the Good Ole Boys Network.

[LadyChocolate]

I believe you completely when you say YOUR not defending this but this is the start of making the victim the villain for not "forgiving" the guilty or learning to deal with it, while the guilty is "forgiven" by all manner of people who don't even have the authority to do it on the part of the vic, but proceed to act all self-righteous about it. I've seen it in the Ohio case as well as other molestation cases.

I understand what you are saying... and by no means do I see this man a victom if she doesn't forgive nor would I see her as a villian if she doesn't overcome this in her life... I've been very close to many who were molested as a child. They carry around soo much inside.....soo many hurts, deep wounds.... That is also why it makes my blood boil to hear stories like this...

[J-Roc]

This is true but the man standing in the pulpit is God's representative on earth. A child can't see God, but the child can see the man who represents Him. It's hard for a child to make sense of what happens. It's hard for an adult to make sense of what happens in cases like the one mentioned on this thread. Only God can bring about the spiritual healing that is needed.


Definitely a no win situation....at least from a short-term perspective.

[OP_Carl]

That is what i thought when i first read this.... YOu know, I have no problem helping to restore a brother (or sister) when they sin... We are commanded to do so.... BUT, to me, when you start messing with children, you are doing more than just "sinning"... please understand what I am trying to say... I can see where a man or woman might get messed up and commit adultery...you know, things like that..... but to mess with children is sooo out there.... I'm not saying there is no mercy, all have that promise each morning... But this is just not another "ooops I messed up" thing... This is a "sicko" thing...

It's an 'irrepairable damage' thing.

That girl can NEVER have her innocence back. This girl will struggle with male role models, authority, male authority, her own sexuality, relationships, trust, and guilt. Her entire family will require a miracle to ever have faith in a man of God again. The church members will have their struggles and fallings-away now as an additional repercussion. It's hard enough for a church and board to replace a pastor in 'normal' circumstances. Now the must do so while questioning everything they've been taught in the last 4 to 20 years, possibly even while questioning God Himself.

Sad, indeed.

[Newman]

I wouldn't say they are over but maybe improving.

Improving dramatically over the thinking even a decade earlier.... Thank God! :cool:

[J-Roc]

It's an 'irrepairable damage' thing.



irreparable ;)

[H2H]

It's an 'irrepairable damage' thing.

That girl can NEVER have her innocence back. This girl will struggle with male role models, authority, male authority, her own sexuality, relationships, trust, and guilt. Her entire family will require a miracle to ever have faith in a man of God again. The church members will have their struggles and fallings-away now as an additional repercussion. It's hard enough for a church and board to replace a pastor in 'normal' circumstances. Now the must do so while questioning everything they've been taught in the last 4 to 20 years, possibly even while questioning God Himself.

Sad, indeed.

I HEAR THIS LOUD AND CLEAR. BUT, is it not true then - all those many sermons I have heard - that God can, will and wants to fully heal and restore those who have experienced such pain and suffering??

[OP_Carl]

I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm told that in the prison system, if a person has messed with a child, what they have to go through inside that prison makes them WISH they had a millstone around their neck and were in the bottom of the deep blue sea with it.

It's amazing the sorts of 'accidents' befall molesters once the other inmates learn their crimes. They trip over floor wax, they fall up the stairs, they fall on their own fork in the cafeteria. Fifty-seven times. Those other inmates may be criminals, but many of them are also parents.

[Newman]

It's an 'irrepairable damage' thing.

That girl can NEVER have her innocence back. This girl will struggle with male role models, authority, male authority, her own sexuality, relationships, trust, and guilt. Her entire family will require a miracle to ever have faith in a man of God again. The church members will have their struggles and fallings-away now as an additional repercussion. It's hard enough for a church and board to replace a pastor in 'normal' circumstances. Now the must do so while questioning everything they've been taught in the last 4 to 20 years, possibly even while questioning God Himself.

Sad, indeed.

This is true and yet I have talked to a woman who was molested by a minister as a young teenager. She absolutly claims peace and victory over this. I believe there are alot of people that could benefit from understanding how she was able to overcome (even when the good ole boys network swept it under the carpet).

The sad reality is that 1 out of 4 girls have been molested as a child and one out of 7 boys. This is something the church needs to talk about and minister to. :cool:

[J-Roc]

The sad reality is that 1 out of 4 girls have been molested as a child and one out of 7 boys. This is something the church needs to talk about and minister to. :cool:


Wow, those are alarming figures...didn't realize it was that high! :angelsad

[OP_Carl]

I HEAR THIS LOUD AND CLEAR. BUT, is it not true then - all those many sermons I have heard - that God can, will and wants to fully heal and restore those who have experienced such pain and suffering??

Yes, but it's hard work. It isn't for the faint-of-heart, or the pretentious. The devil knows that if he takes out the shepherd, the sheep will be scattered.

The investment of 20 years of pastoral work has had its balance zeroed in one day, through one weakness.

Pray for the church members to have wisdom. The hypocrisy of teachers of biblical principles does not invalidate those principles. It simply demonstrates human frailty.

[OP_Carl]

Abused. Abuser. Abused. Absurer. It continues.

The staggering mathematical compounding potential of this vile human meme is the reason, I believe, people find it so reprehensible, in such an innate, almost gutteral, way. It spreads like a time-delayed plague.

[CC1]

I do want to chime in about this talk about the good ole boy network and sweeping things under the rug.

I do believe that has been the case regarding some prominent Pentecostal preachers sons regarding adultery BUT I do not know of a single case where child molestation was covered up and I have a hard time believing that would happen. I am not sayinbg it has not happened but I don't know if it (I can think of 3 major UPC PK's with the "woman" problem though that was covered up and swept very neatly under the rug. Recently in my circles (exUPC) I have heard of the same thing happening. A church being told that they should ignore or look past their pastor's sexual sin, forgive him, and still respect him, keep him in the pulpit, etc. Blows my mind if it is true!

[OP_Carl]

irreparable ;)

wise guy, eh?

I'm typing one-handed this evening as I'm holding the baby so the missus can have a bath.

[J-Roc]

wise guy, eh?

I'm typing one-handed this evening as I'm holding the baby so the missus can have a bath.

Under the circumstances...you're exonerated! :hypercoffee

[OP_Carl]

Recently in my circles (exUPC) I have heard of the same thing happening. A church being told that they should ignore or look past their pastor's sexual sin, forgive him, and still respect him, keep him in the pulpit, etc. Blows my mind if it is true!

Oh, yeah, that's fine, never mind what the Bible says!!! :rolleyes2

It's not called sloppy agape for nothing.

[J-Roc]

wise guy, eh?

I'm typing one-handed this evening as I'm holding the baby so the missus can have a bath.

Under the circumstances...you're exonerated! :hypercoffee


On second thought...what's the baby doing up this late? :tricycle


;)

[OP_Carl]

On second thought...what's the baby doing up this late? :tricycle


;)

He's asleep. But I'm not taking the risk of putting him down until his mama emerges refreshed and ready to feed him, should events warrant. :ernie :mama

Now that you mention the hour, I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't War and Peace she's reading in there! :uhoh

I NEED some rack time!:bedtime

[Praxeas]

Your wish is my command :hypercoffee

[OP_Carl]

Your wish is my command :hypercoffee

Look! We made a new funny!


It's so kind of you to offer to help!

When you feed him, start with the left side first. :winkgrin



:killinme

[J-Roc]

Your wish is my command :hypercoffee


Hey Prax, why did you say this? :huh

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I do want to chime in about this talk about the good ole boy network and sweeping things under the rug.

I do believe that has been the case regarding some prominent Pentecostal preachers sons regarding adultery BUT I do not know of a single case where child molestation was covered up and I have a hard time believing that would happen. I am not sayinbg it has not happened but I don't know if it (I can think of 3 major UPC PK's with the "woman" problem though that was covered up and swept very neatly under the rug. Recently in my circles (exUPC) I have heard of the same thing happening. A church being told that they should ignore or look past their pastor's sexual sin, forgive him, and still respect him, keep him in the pulpit, etc. Blows my mind if it is true!

It's a good thing that we don't know all of the happenings of the good ole boy networks. It's hard enough for people to keep the faith knowing what they do know.

[nwlife]

actually because of this type of situation, most church insurance companies require that background checks are done on staff and volunteers....and if it isn't done, they won't cover any injury, lawsuit damages, etc...

And for what you guys have heard what happens to molesters in prison, yes it is true...I can ask about 800 guys when I next go for services at a local prison.

[Michael Phelps]

I didn't say anyone would. I said I hope they don't. Or that's what I meant to say. I've seen the good ole boy network defend the guilty, but let's hope that doesn't happen here.

Why don't you see how many more times you can use the phrase "good ole boy network"?

We get your point. You're bitter. Move on.

[Coonskinner]

What a travesty...God help that poor little girl and that church.

[Barb]

What a travesty...God help that poor little girl and that church.

Yes sir...

[Sarah]

What a travesty...God help that poor little girl and that church.


I read this whole thread when I got up this morning. It makes me physically ill...

[jillian]

This is a horrible thing to happen..My heart breaks for the child.


When I read the article in the Globe I was upset over the graphic details they told. I do not agree with that, for various reasons.
One thing is even more of her privacy has been violated.

The last 3/4 articles dealing with sexual crimes they have ran, they have been graphic.

What do you think?

[H2H]

This is a horrible thing to happen..My heart breaks for the child.


When I read the article in the Globe I was upset over the graphic details they told. I do not agree with that, for various reasons.
One thing is even more of her privacy has been violated.

The last 3/4 articles dealing with sexual crimes they have ran, they have been graphic.

What do you think?

I have mixed feelings about it. When there is confession involved it really does not seem needful to disclose such details to the public.

[Subdued]

I haven't read this entire thread yet; but I just want to say that I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW SUCH THINGS CAN HAPPEN! ARE THESE MEN ANIMALS? DON'T THEY HAVE SELF CONTROL LIKE THE REST OF THE HUMAN RACE?! IT ANGERS ME BEYOND WORDS!

[Coonskinner]

I haven't read this entire thread yet; but I just want to say that I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW SUCH THINGS CAN HAPPEN! ARE THESE MEN ANIMALS? DON'T THEY HAVE SELF CONTROL LIKE THE REST OF THE HUMAN RACE?! IT ANGERS ME BEYOND WORDS!


Self control?

Who in their right mind has to exercise self control to keep their hands off a child?

Sadly, that is a perversion that goes far beyond unrestrained carnality.

Something is twisted up way down inside.

[Subdued]

LadyChocolate- I understand where you are coming from. Most probably feel this way. However, many of these cases involve a perpetrator who was once themselves a victim as a child. It is sad all the way around. :cool:

Newman, IMO, that does NOT matter AT ALL. Why? Here's my answer:

So was I [a victim as a child]; however, I have never molested another child. I'll NEVER buy that as an excuse! Each adult is solely responsible for their OWN behavior.

[Subdued]

This is true and yet I have talked to a woman who was molested by a minister as a young teenager. She absolutly claims peace and victory over this. I believe there are alot of people that could benefit from understanding how she was able to overcome (even when the good ole boys network swept it under the carpet).

The sad reality is that 1 out of 4 girls have been molested as a child and one out of 7 boys. This is something the church needs to talk about and minister to. :cool:

Not only that, but parents need to talk to their children about it as well. IMO, it's IMPERATIVE! Children NEED to feel comfortable (unfortunately) enough to talk to their parents about such things. Parents have to talk to their children openly and comfortably about sexual abuse. It's hard to do, but it's so important. Otherwise, children will continue to feel ashamed and be too embarrassed to tell their parents if they are abused or molested.

It really needs to be discussed (openly/comfortably) quite often. Just like we tell them over & over not to talk to strangers, or not to take anything (candy, money, etc.) from strangers, or not to go near cars if someone stops to ask a question, etc.

I think it's so important that when we talk to our children about sexual abuse that we do so as comfortably as we tell them about strangers. If we act like it embarrasses US, then our kids WILL be afraid to tell. It's so sad that life is this way, but it is.

[Subdued]

Self control?

Who in their right mind has to exercise self control to keep their hands off a child?

Sadly, that is a perversion that goes far beyond unrestrained carnality.

Something is twisted up way down inside.

Which is why I asked if these men are animals? I just don't understand it. It's beyond my comprehension. I don't get it! AT ALL!

[Subdued]

This is a horrible thing to happen..My heart breaks for the child.


When I read the article in the Globe I was upset over the graphic details they told. I do not agree with that, for various reasons.
One thing is even more of her privacy has been violated.

The last 3/4 articles dealing with sexual crimes they have ran, they have been graphic.

What do you think?

Part of me says yes, tell it all; even read it to your children. But I totally understand the privacy issue with the child. Then again, the CHILD did nothing wrong - so she should not be made to feel that what happened is something that should be hush-hush. Yet, sexuality should be private. However, this man has changed that, IMO. BUT, ... Well, I just don't know.

[Subdued]

Well, I think the days of shuffling people around the country, sweeping the matter under the carpet, and looking the other way are OVER. Too much potential liability now days to do so. :cool:

VERY SAD that this is what it takes to stop sweeping it under the rug.

[Subdued]

Margie,

This man shouldn't be respected for confessing the crimes he committed against this innocent child. He molested her over a period of years and the only reason he confessed was because he was caught.

This child has to carry this with her the rest of her life and the damage wrought to her has many levels - physical, emotional and spiritual.

I agree!

[Subdued]

Abused. Abuser. Abused. Absurer. It continues.

Not always... I don't buy this as an excuse.

[Felicity]

Not always... I don't buy this as an excuse.I don't think anyone is offering it as an excuse, because I agree, it really isn't. It's just fact. Sadly so.

Abusers have always existed and always will and there are many different kinds of abuse. It all affects the abused individual in negative ways that they have to deal with eventually and sometimes all their lives.

Educating children doesn't always guarantee protection either. Another sad fact, but a true one too.

[Subdued]

I don't think anyone is offering it as an excuse, because I agree, it really isn't. It's just fact. Sadly so.

Abusers have always existed and always will and there are many different kinds of abuse. It all affects the abused individual in negative ways that they have to deal with eventually and sometimes all their lives.

Educating children doesn't always guarantee protection either. Another sad fact, but a true one too.

No, it doesn't always guarantee protection; but it helps children be better equipped to tell the FIRST time something happens rather than not telling & suffering through the abuse for years. The more "education" the better.

[ILG]

Margie,

This man shouldn't be respected for confessing the crimes he committed against this innocent child. He molested her over a period of years and the only reason he confessed was because he was caught.

This child has to carry this with her the rest of her life and the damage wrought to her has many levels - physical, emotional and spiritual.

I think the word respect is used loosely here. But I understand what Margie and Newman are saying. The courts have to sort out the truth otherwise which is so painful and not always accurate. What the preacher did was spare the child more heartache which is so important. So, respect may not be the perfect word, but it is much better to confess than put the child through more pain. He's already done enough damage.

[ILG]

This is true and yet I have talked to a woman who was molested by a minister as a young teenager. She absolutly claims peace and victory over this. I believe there are alot of people that could benefit from understanding how she was able to overcome (even when the good ole boys network swept it under the carpet).

The sad reality is that 1 out of 4 girls have been molested as a child and one out of 7 boys. This is something the church needs to talk about and minister to. :cool:

Amen. We can add domestic violence to the list of things that need talking about.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Why don't you see how many more times you can use the phrase "good ole boy network"?

We get your point. You're bitter. Move on.

No, I'm not bitter. Do you use the word I quite often in conversation? That does not make you an egotist. After it was picked up on, it was discussed. That's all. That's what this forum is about. No use in denying "its" existence though. Let's move on. I agree. Sorry if the point was belabored.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Not always... I don't buy this as an excuse.

I wasn't using it as an excuse. I was merely stating that sometimes that is the case. There is no excuse for this type of behavior.

[whollyHis]

My God....his poor wife.

And his church...what a horrible valley to have to walk through.

Sad.

[Subdued]

Abused. Abuser. Abused. Absurer. It continues.

Not always... I don't buy this as an excuse.

I don't think anyone is offering it as an excuse, because I agree, it really isn't. It's just fact. Sadly so.

Abusers have always existed and always will and there are many different kinds of abuse. It all affects the abused individual in negative ways that they have to deal with eventually and sometimes all their lives.

Educating children doesn't always guarantee protection either. Another sad fact, but a true one too.

I wasn't using it as an excuse. I was merely stating that sometimes that is the case. There is no excuse for this type of behavior.

Gotcha'! Sorry for assuming you (and/or others) were making excuses.

[RandyWayne]

My God....his poor wife.

And his church...what a horrible valley to have to walk through.

Sad.

Yes, there will be a lifetime of fallout for a lot of people.

[myhaloisintheshop]

This man was my presbyter last year. I am in total shock after hearing of this.

My mom goes to another church in that section---her pastor made mention of a pastor that was "being attacked wrongfully"

From all I have seen and heard--he confessed. He certainly isn't the victim and is not being attacked.

[RandyWayne]

My mom goes to another church in that section---her pastor made mention of a pastor that was "being attacked wrongfully"

The beginning of the GOBN?

[ILG]

This man was my presbyter last year. I am in total shock after hearing of this.

My mom goes to another church in that section---her pastor made mention of a pastor that was "being attacked wrongfully"

From all I have seen and heard--he confessed. He certainly isn't the victim and is not being attacked.

The man who molested was a presbyter?? God help us!!

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

The man who molested was a presbyter?? God help us!!

This is absolutely no surprise to me!

[myhaloisintheshop]

He was until very recently.

And yes...I do think it was the start of the GOBN.

Having been in the section--I DO think some tried to hide it.

[ILG]

This is absolutely no surprise to me!

It's not an awful surprise to me either. I've seen too much. Regardless, it is a terrible tragedy and this makes it that much worse.

[ILG]

He was until very recently.

And yes...I do think it was the start of the GOBN.

Having been in the section--I DO think some tried to hide it.

I'm sure that many did....having been the recipient of many false accusations themselves OR being guilty themselves of some things. Both things happen to cause the GOBN. But NO respectable minister (and any thinking unrespectable one) would back this guy after he confessed. Support for restoration of his own walk, yes. Backing him completely, no.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

The beginning of the GOBN?

SHHHH. I'm not initiating a post on this thread with the GOBN mentioned here again but I will comment on a post if the GOBN is meentioned. Most of the time the GOBN works incognito or behind the scenes where the truly sincere and "good" know nothing about it. The guy confessed, so there should be no need for the GOBN. If he had not confessed, I cannot help but wonder what would have happened. Confession is good for the soul for ALL, but you won't see it if others do not see their sins.

[myhaloisintheshop]

That is exactly what I thought. I am discusted by what Huling did--but to BACK a man that is accused of this and try to hide it? That discust me as well.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

It's not an awful surprise to me either. I've seen too much. Regardless, it is a terrible tragedy and this makes it that much worse.

I've seen it, too....I believe you are referring to "the group". Makes me want to stay as far away as I can. God has a church and I don't think "it" is part of it - unless they repent and make things right. To me it would be like the SS troops being saved with no repentance. That may seem harsh, but that's how I see it. Even Hitler himself said, "How lucky for those in power, that people don't think". His network was the ultimate in being corrupt. I have no idea whether "it" would have shown itself in this situation. Making only general statements here. Praying that this would not have been the case.

[Amos]

As reprehensible and inexcusable as this sin is, let me just drop a little Scriptural nugget on all you guys bemoaning the infamous GOBN...

If he had not confessed, the church is obligated to reject any accusation against an elder that doesn't come with at least two or three witnesses.

Thank God the man at least had the decency or whatever it was that made him confess...because if he had not, her word against his with no proof would have left the church with no choice but to put aside the accusation.

That isn't GOBN, that is Bible.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I realize that sometimes men are accused unjustly. The church is obligated to do whatever is needed to get to the truth.

In our age, the man can be a witness against himself when he does not desire to be. His "DNA" can be a witness, fingerprints can be a witness, a polygraph test might be a witness. Sometimes a video or audio may be his own witness against himself. When a man gives his word in the presence of others, he may be a witness against himself. If the girl says it, the forensic evidence says it, but he doesn't say it, that's still two witnesses by reason of the evidence.

Who knows if some of the later "witnessing" may have been the case? I don't know. Just speculating. Yes, the Bible is the Bible. In the year 2007 there are more ways to be "a witness" than in Biblical days. Technology and science can show someone as an unwilling witness against himself.

As reprehensible and inexcusable as this sin is, let me just drop a little Scriptural nugget on all you guys bemoaning the infamous GOBN...

If he had not confessed, the church is obligated to reject any accusation against an elder that doesn't come with at least two or three witnesses.

Thank God the man at least had the decency or whatever it was that made him confess...because if he had not, her word against his with no proof would have left the church with no choice but to put aside the accusation.

That isn't GOBN, that is Bible.

[Amos]

I realize that sometimes men are accused unjustly. The church is obligated to do whatever is needed to get to the truth.

In our age, the man can be a witness against himself when he does not desire to be. His "DNA" can be a witness, fingerprints can be a witness, a polygraph test might be a witness. Sometimes a video or audio may be his own witness against himself. When a man gives his word in the presence of others, he may be a witness against himself. If the girl says it, the forensic evidence says it, but he doesn't say it, that's still two witnesses by reason of the evidence.

Who knows if some of the later "witnessing" may have been the case? I don't know. Just speculating. Yes, the Bible is the Bible. In the year 2007 there are more ways to be "a witness" than in Biblical days.


I agree that forensics would indeed constitute a witness; hearsay does not.

In this case, it sounds as if forensic evidence would have been virtually impossible to obtain.

Therefore, thank the Lord he confessed, or there would have been no way to convict him Scripturally.

[Amos]

Incidentally, the testimony of the accuser would not qualify as a witness.

[RandyWayne]

In this case, it sounds as if forensic evidence would have been virtually impossible to obtain.


I agree that in THIS case, it doesn't sound like CSI evidence would have been much help. And the part that I quoted (now) way back about another minister saying that the accused was "being attacked unjustly" ALL hinges on whether or not it was before or after his confession. If it was before, we have a case of the accused innocence being assumed. Just like Bible and just like our Constitution. If it happened AFTER, then we have someone who needs to be drawn and quartered.

[Amos]

I agree that in THIS case, it doesn't sound like CSI evidence would have been much help. And the part that I quoted (now) way back about another minister saying that the accused was "being attacked unjustly" ALL hinges on whether or not it was before or after his confession. If it was before, we have a case of the accused innocence being assumed. Just like Bible and just like our Constitution. If it happened AFTER, then we have someone who needs to be drawn and quartered.


Agreed.

[Praxeas]

I haven't read this entire thread yet; but I just want to say that I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW SUCH THINGS CAN HAPPEN! ARE THESE MEN ANIMALS? DON'T THEY HAVE SELF CONTROL LIKE THE REST OF THE HUMAN RACE?! IT ANGERS ME BEYOND WORDS!
Women do it too.

[Praxeas]

Self control?

Who in their right mind has to exercise self control to keep their hands off a child?

Sadly, that is a perversion that goes far beyond unrestrained carnality.

Something is twisted up way down inside.
This is true, but like Newman said most of these cases involve adults who were abused themselves as children

[Praxeas]

Newman, IMO, that does NOT matter AT ALL. Why? Here's my answer:

So was I [a victim as a child]; however, I have never molested another child. I'll NEVER buy that as an excuse! Each adult is solely responsible for their OWN behavior.
She did not say it was an excuse. Nobody here is excusing this act. However it's true these individuals are messed up inside and we should look at how they got that way. In fact we should be very aware of what this might do to the girl involved too.

[ILG]

Incidentally, the testimony of the accuser would not qualify as a witness.

?? Please give scripture with this.....not doubting necessarily that you have something to back this up, but I would still like to see it.

[Amos]

?? Please give scripture with this.....not doubting necessarily that you have something to back this up, but I would still like to see it.


A witness is an observer, not the person who claims to be a victim.

The defiinition of the word is enough.
Even if the accuser did qualify as a witness, their accusation alone would only be one "witness."

[RandyWayne]

Incidentally, the testimony of the accuser would not qualify as a witness.

An interesting point and I actually changed my mind about three times in the course of two minutes thinking about the statement.

Of course you can say that the word "witness" be definition means someone who SAW something being done to someone or something.
(15 seconds went by)
But then isn't the one with the accusation also a witness? After all they saw first hand what happened. Why would they be disqualified from telling their side of the story?

I think it is an interesting thought, but at this point it seems to be a case of extreme semantics.

[ILG]

A witness is an observer, not the person who claims to be a victim.

The defiinition of the word is enough.
Even if the accuser did qualify as a witness, their accusation alone would only be one "witness."

This is not proof of the system....the way things work. You need to make an argument.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

This is not proof of the system....the way things work. You need to make an argument.

wit·ness (wtns)
n.1. a. One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced
b. One who furnishes evidence.

2. Something that serves as evidence; a sign.
3. Law
a. One who is called on to testify before a court.
b. One who is called on to be present at a transaction in order to attest to what takes place.
c. One who signs one's name to a document for the purpose of attesting to its authenticity.
4. An attestation to a fact, statement, or event; testimony.

[RandyWayne]

wit·ness (wtns)
n.1. a. One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced
b. One who furnishes evidence.



So that brief philosophical foray into what constitutes a "witness" has been squashed. LOL

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

So that brief philosophical foray into what constitutes a "witness" has been squashed. LOL

In the old days, when people testified and gave a witness to what God had done for them. Wasn't that along the lines of "I was there when it happened and I guess I ought to know."

[Newman]

Women do it too.

Well, yes and no. The ALARMING statistic is that 1 out of 20 men has been involved in some kind of sexual assault on a minor*; whereas 1 out of 3300 women have been involved in some kind of sexual assault on a minor.

*I am guessing that this statistic would include indecent exposure and possibly men having sex with underage teenagers who know better.

[Subdued]

Women do it too.

I know - I feel the same about them.

[Subdued]

She did not say it was an excuse. Nobody here is excusing this act. However it's true these individuals are messed up inside and we should look at how they got that way. In fact we should be very aware of what this might do to the girl involved too.

I've already apologized for my assumption(s). Yes, these individuals are messed up inside, I agree.

[Newman]

As reprehensible and inexcusable as this sin is, let me just drop a little Scriptural nugget on all you guys bemoaning the infamous GOBN...

If he had not confessed, the church is obligated to reject any accusation against an elder that doesn't come with at least two or three witnesses.

Thank God the man at least had the decency or whatever it was that made him confess...because if he had not, her word against his with no proof would have left the church with no choice but to put aside the accusation.

That isn't GOBN, that is Bible.

Scripture also says to render onto Ceasar what is Ceasars. If a child makes an accuasation against an elder; you best consult an attorney PRONTO. There are various mandatory reporting laws and liability issues inherent to each state. This is all I am going to say about it.

This should not be construed as legal advice but rather the attempt rightly divide Scripture.

[Praxeas]

Well, yes and no. The ALARMING statistic is that 1 out of 20 men has been involved in some kind of sexual assault on a minor*; whereas 1 out of 3300 women have been involved in some kind of sexual assault on a minor.

*I am guessing that this statistic would include indecent exposure and possibly men having sex with underage teenagers who know better.
Im also guessing that the statistics aren't as high because we have idiot judges that let the women go because "it's every young man's dream to have sex with an older woman"

[myhaloisintheshop]

There has been some outrage about this in the community.

Do you live near there? Just wondering how you have gotten your information

[ILG]

Im also guessing that the statistics aren't as high because we have idiot judges that let the women go because "it's every young man's dream to have sex with an older woman"

Those teachers who have been getting off lightly need to be made examples of!

[Amos]

Scripture also says to render onto Ceasar what is Ceasars. If a child makes an accuasation against an elder; you best consult an attorney PRONTO. There are various mandatory reporting laws and liability issues inherent to each state. This is all I am going to say about it.

This should not be construed as legal advice but rather the attempt rightly divide Scripture.

I don't disagree about calling the authorities.

I have done so twice in the last three years.

I am talking about the way the church relates to accusations.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Incidentally, the testimony of the accuser would not qualify as a witness.


An attorney can call both the accuser/alleged victim and the accused to the WITNESS stand. They are both considered witnesses.

A prosecutor cannot call the defendant to the witness stand in a criminal trial; but can cross examine him if his own attorney puts him on the WITNESS stand.

The above is how I view this.

So, if someone is a victim of rape, then are you saying she has to find two or three witnesses to verify that it occurred? If she says it and the forensic evidence says it, that's two witnesses. If she says it and he says it, that's two witnesses. I admit that there might not be any forensic evidence in this MO case, but we don't know that. He might be confessing because he knows that the evidence exists (pure speculation, but it's possible). Moving on.

[J-Roc]

My God....his poor wife.

And his church...what a horrible valley to have to walk through.

Sad.

Yes, many are affected....but the first to come to mind are the direct victims...the others come later.

[J-Roc]

This man was my presbyter last year. I am in total shock after hearing of this.

My mom goes to another church in that section---her pastor made mention of a pastor that was "being attacked wrongfully"

From all I have seen and heard--he confessed. He certainly isn't the victim and is not being attacked.


Maybe it's another matter altogether.

[J-Roc]

The man who molested was a presbyter?? God help us!!

Not all that glitters is gold...don't always believe the hype.

[J-Roc]

This is true, but like Newman said most of these cases involve adults who were abused themselves as children

Newman did not say it was the majority (most)....she just said there were many. :poloroid

[Felicity]

This is absolutely no surprise to me!Presbyters are people who have abilities or ministry that puts them in a position of leadership - but they're still "men" (or women) and that makes them human and fallible. All humans are.

[Michael Phelps]

SHHHH. I'm not initiating a post on this thread with the GOBN mentioned here again but I will comment on a post if the GOBN is meentioned. Most of the time the GOBN works incognito or behind the scenes where the truly sincere and "good" know nothing about it. The guy confessed, so there should be no need for the GOBN. If he had not confessed, I cannot help but wonder what would have happened. Confession is good for the soul for ALL, but you won't see it if others do not see their sins.

It is absolutely no surprise to me, or anyone, that "Good old boy" networks exist. They exist in politics, business, clubs, neighborhood associations, churches, law enforcement, everywhere. To automatically assume that this man will be protected by the "good old boy" network before ever hearing the story and knowing the facts, and to continually assert such allegations, is in my mind, cynical and reveals a root of bitterness.

Hence, my comment to Fringe Nutter, it seemed that his obsession was with the alleged protection that would be afforded this pastor, regardless of the verdict.

Now, IF in fact, the GOBN is truly covering up this sick pervert's confessed sins, then I'll jump on the bandwagon with everyone else to denounce the enablers who have assisted in the propogation of this travesty. In a situation like this, to have knowledge of a trespass like this, and not only refuse to reveal it, but take proactive steps to conceal it, the GOBN should suffer the same fate as the offender.

[Sam]

anybody remember what happened with this case from a few years ago?
--------------------
nternational Church Named in Sexual Assault Lawsuit

Case No. 31,691-98, is set for trial 04/23/01 in the 12th judicial district of Angelina County, Lufkin Texas. Defendants in this case are e)United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) in Saint Louis MO, k)Texas District of the United Pentecostal Church, g)United Pentecostal Church of Eastland Texas, n)Bobby Hart and Jonathan Mark Hart. Jonathan Mark Hart was convicted in Eastland, TX, Feb. 1999, on 3 counts of sexual assault of a minor child. The female children were 15 and 16 years of age and members of the Youth Group at Eastland United Pentecostal Church. Jonathan Hart attended Bible College at o)Gateway College of Evangelism and was acting Assistant Pastor at the Eastland United Pentecostal Church. He and his wife were the designated Youth Directors as well. Assaults on these young girls occurred on Church property and on Church related trips supervised by Jonathan Hart. Bobby Hart is the Father of Jonathan Hart and was also the Pastor of the Eastland Church at the time of the assaults. Bobby Hart appointed Jonathan Hart to both leadership positions.

Bobby Hart and wife Debbie became aware of their Son's activities some months before the parents of the victims learned of the crimes on 6/15/98. Bobby Hart allowed Jonathan to continue working with children and to retain his position as Assistant Pastor, even after learning of his crimes.

Bobby Hart is a licensed minister with UPCI and the local church in Eastland is affiliated with UPCI. A certified letter detailing the assaults was sent to k)James Kilgore and received by him on 7/09/98. UPCI sent three representatives to investigate the situation. Representatives for UPCI were h)Wendell Elms, i)Kerry Sharp and j)David Bernard. Victims were told that there was evidence of Ministerial misconduct but the investigative team took no immediate action. Bobby Hart refused to resign and was allowed to continue as Pastor. He finally resigned in late November 1998. Bobby and Son, Jonathan Hart, along with their families, have since moved to Athens Texas and are involved in the m)United Pentecostal Church there. Bobby Hart still holds a license with the UPCI and has never been reprimanded in any way.

The Plaintiffs in this case maintain that UPCI either knew or should have known the risks associated with leadership roles involving children. An aggressive campaign by UPCI to recognize and minimize these risks would have afforded substantial protection to the victims in this case and potential victims in other UPCI churches. However, UPCI's top man, f)Nathaniel Urshan, insists that UPCI has no duty to protect children in their more than 21,000 churches. The lack of adequate safeguards places thousands of children at risk of similar assaults. The fact that no disciplinary action has yet been taken in this case, gives rise to grave concern that UPCI will continue to ignore its duty in this area and responsible ministers will go unpunished. UPCI has substantial resources to implement and maintain programs to minimize known risks to children attending Sunday school and Youth oriented events endorsed by its Churches. Plaintiffs' goal is to see that UPCI recognizes this responsibility and begins a policy of prevention to be implemented at the Local Church level.

Defendants in this case deny any responsibility. UPCI claims that local churches are autonomous. However, the UPCI manual and constitution provide for a substantial level of control over affiliated churches. For example, the Pastor of any affiliated church must be licensed by UPCI. Licensed ministers pay $303 per year to maintain their license. The f)General Superintendent for UPCI must approve and sign all licenses issued to ministers. Affiliated churches must follow a form of government approved by UPCI. Affiliated churches may only disaffiliate through a formal process requiring the presence and approval of UPCI. Members of UPCI affiliated churches are forbidden to swim with persons of the opposite sex and there are strict rules against owning a television. Affiliated churches participate in soliciting donations to UPCI sponsored fundraisers. These include Sheaves for Christ, Home Missions and Foreign Missions, to name a few. The "Sheaves for Christ" fundraiser boasts over 57 million dollars in donations since its inception. It is frightening to think that this International organization, with this kind of resources and power to influence millions of people, has not recognized its responsibility to protect the children in its local churches.

The United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) in North America lists 3,876 churches, reports a Sunday school attendance of more than 400,000 and has an estimated constituency of at least 600,000. UPCI is headquartered in St. Louis MO. And has district offices located in every state. UPCI also has a presence in 136 other nations. With 15,882 licensed ministers, 21,407 churches and meeting places, and a foreign constituency of over 1.9 million, the total worldwide constituency is more than 2.6 million. UPCI website: http://www.upci.org/

Attorney for Plaintiffs: John David Hart - 201 Main Street - Suite 1720 - Fort Worth, TX 76102 - phone: 817-870-2102 - 1-800-247-1623

Attorney for UPCI: Lynn Fielder - 2710 N. Stemmons Freeway - 400 Stemmons Tower North - Dallas, TX 75207 - phone: 214-638-3744

Attorney for Texas District of UPCI: Thomas W. Deaton - Flournoy & Deaton - PO Box 1546 - 118 South Second Street - Lufkin, TX 75901 - phone: 936-639-4466

Attorney for Eastland United Pentecostal Church: Gregory L. Longino - 101 South First Street - Lufkin, TX 75901 - phone: 936-639-5999

United Pentecostal Church International: 8855 Dunn Road - Hazelwood, MO 63042-2299 - phone: 314-837-7300 / FAX: 314-837-4503.

Nathaniel A. Urshan: General Superintendent for UPCI - Board of General Presbyters - Minister?s Retirement Fund Administrative Committee - Church School Executive Committee - President of Pentecostal Publishing House - Harvestime Director and Speaker - 8821 Dunn Rd. - Hazelwood, MO 63042 - phone: 314-839-2516

Eastland United Pentecostal Church: 206 N. Dixie - Eastland, TX 76448 - phone: 254-629-2410 - Current Pastor: Windell Chance
phone: 254-629-1823

Wendell P. Elms: Presbyter for Texas District of UPCI - 4353 Chelsea - Wichita Falls, TX 76309 - phone: 817-696-5673

Kerry Sharp: 3706 Woodcrest Dr. - Temple, TX 76502
phone: 817-778-0689

David K. Bernard: Presbyter for Texas District of UPCI - Associate Editor and Executive Publication Committee for The Pentecostal Herald (this magazine is recommended reading for every member of any United Pentecostal Church) - 4405 Andalusia Dr. - Austin, TX 78759 - phone: 512-795-0505

James L. Kilgore: District General Presbyter for State of Texas - Superintendent for Texas District of UPCI - PO Box 15175 - Houston, TX 77020 - phone: 281-996-5630

Danny R. Russo: Secretary/Treasurer for Texas District of UPCI - Rt. 4 Box 1947 - Lufkin, TX 75901 - phone: 409-632-4764

First United Pentecostal Church of Athens Texas: 101 McArthur - PO Box 431 - Athens, TX 75751 - phone: 903-675-5089
Pastor: O. E. Davis - 206 S. Wofford Street - Athens, TX 75751

Bobby Hart: 10600 F.M. 753 - Athens, TX 75751 - phone: 903-675-6765

Gateway College of Evangelism: PO Box C - Florissant, Missouri 63031 - phone: 314-838-8858 - website: http://www.gatewaycollege.net/

[J-Roc]

It is absolutely no surprise to me, or anyone, that "Good old boy" networks exist. They exist in politics, business, clubs, neighborhood associations, churches, law enforcement, everywhere. To automatically assume that this man will be protected by the "good old boy" network before ever hearing the story and knowing the facts, and to continually assert such allegations, is in my mind, cynical and reveals a root of bitterness.

Hence, my comment to Fringe Nutter, it seemed that his obsession was with the alleged protection that would be afforded this pastor, regardless of the verdict.

Now, IF in fact, the GOBN is truly covering up this sick pervert's confessed sins, then I'll jump on the bandwagon with everyone else to denounce the enablers who have assisted in the propogation of this travesty. In a situation like this, to have knowledge of a trespass like this, and not only refuse to reveal it, but take proactive steps to conceal it, the GOBN should suffer the same fate as the offender.



Apparently this protection from the GOBN does happen:

http://www.reformation.com/CSA/Hart1.htm




Church Named in Sexual Assault Lawsuit

Case No. 31,691-98, is set for trial 04/23/01 in the 12th judicial district of Angelina County, Lufkin Texas. Defendants in this case are e)United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) in Saint Louis MO, k)Texas District of the United Pentecostal Church, g)United Pentecostal Church of Eastland Texas, n)Bobby Hart and Jonathan Mark Hart. Jonathan Mark Hart was convicted in Eastland, TX, Feb. 1999, on 3 counts of sexual assault of a minor child. The female children were 15 and 16 years of age and members of the Youth Group at Eastland United Pentecostal Church. Jonathan Hart attended Bible College at o)Gateway College of Evangelism and was acting Assistant Pastor at the Eastland United Pentecostal Church. He and his wife were the designated Youth Directors as well. Assaults on these young girls occurred on Church property and on Church related trips supervised by Jonathan Hart. Bobby Hart is the Father of Jonathan Hart and was also the Pastor of the Eastland Church at the time of the assaults. Bobby Hart appointed Jonathan Hart to both leadership positions.

Bobby Hart and wife Debbie became aware of their Son?s activities some months before the parents of the victims learned of the crimes on 6/15/98. Bobby Hart allowed Jonathan to continue working with children and to retain his position as Assistant Pastor, even after learning of his crimes.

Bobby Hart is a licensed minister with UPCI and the local church in Eastland is affiliated with UPCI. A certified letter detailing the assaults was sent to k)James Kilgore and received by him on 7/09/98. UPCI sent three representatives to investigate the situation. Representatives for UPCI were h)Wendell Elms, i)Kerry Sharp and j)David Bernard. Victims were told that there was evidence of Ministerial misconduct but the investigative team took no immediate action. Bobby Hart refused to resign and was allowed to continue as Pastor. He finally resigned in late November 1998. Bobby and Son, Jonathan Hart, along with their families, have since moved to Athens Texas and are involved in the m)United Pentecostal Church there. Bobby Hart still holds a license with the UPCI and has never been reprimanded in any way.

The Plaintiffs in this case maintain that UPCI either knew or should have known the risks associated with leadership roles involving children. An aggressive campaign by UPCI to recognize and minimize these risks would have afforded substantial protection to the victims in this case and potential victims in other UPCI churches. However, UPCI?s top man, f)Nathaniel Urshan, insists that UPCI has no duty to protect children in their more than 21,000 churches. The lack of adequate safeguards places thousands of children at risk of similar assaults. The fact that no disciplinary action has yet been taken in this case, gives rise to grave concern that UPCI will continue to ignore its duty in this area and responsible ministers will go unpunished. UPCI has substantial resources to implement and maintain programs to minimize known risks to children attending Sunday school and Youth oriented events endorsed by its Churches. Plaintiffs? goal is to see that UPCI recognizes this responsibility and begins a policy of prevention to be implemented at the Local Church level.

Defendants in this case deny any responsibility. UPCI claims that local churches are autonomous. However, the UPCI manual and constitution provide for a substantial level of control over affiliated churches. For example, the Pastor of any affiliated church must be licensed by UPCI. Licensed ministers pay $303 per year to maintain their license. The f)General Superintendent for UPCI must approve and sign all licenses issued to ministers. Affiliated churches must follow a form of government approved by UPCI. Affiliated churches may only disaffiliate through a formal process requiring the presence and approval of UPCI. Members of UPCI affiliated churches are forbidden to swim with persons of the opposite sex and there are strict rules against owning a television. Affiliated churches participate in soliciting donations to UPCI sponsored fundraisers. These include Sheaves for Christ, Home Missions and Foreign Missions, to name a few. The "Sheaves for Christ" fundraiser boasts over 57 million dollars in donations since its inception. It is frightening to think that this International organization, with this kind of resources and power to influence millions of people, has not recognized its responsibility to protect the children in its local churches.

The United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) in North America lists 3,876 churches, reports a Sunday school attendance of more than 400,000 and has an estimated constituency of at least 600,000. UPCI is headquartered in St. Louis MO. And has district offices located in every state. UPCI also has a presence in 136 other nations. With 15,882 licensed ministers, 21,407 churches and meeting places, and a foreign constituency of over 1.9 million, the total worldwide constituency is more than 2.6 million. UPCI website: http://www.upci.org/

Attorney for Plaintiffs: John David Hart - 201 Main Street - Suite 1720 - Fort Worth, TX 76102 - phone: 817-870-2102 - 1-800-247-1623

Attorney for UPCI: Lynn Fielder - 2710 N. Stemmons Freeway - 400 Stemmons Tower North - Dallas, TX 75207 - phone: 214-638-3744

Attorney for Texas District of UPCI: Thomas W. Deaton - Flournoy & Deaton - PO Box 1546 - 118 South Second Street - Lufkin, TX 75901 - phone: 936-639-4466

Attorney for Eastland United Pentecostal Church: Gregory L. Longino - 101 South First Street - Lufkin, TX 75901 - phone: 936-639-5999

United Pentecostal Church International: 8855 Dunn Road - Hazelwood, MO 63042-2299 - phone: 314-837-7300 / FAX: 314-837-4503.

Nathaniel A. Urshan: General Superintendent for UPCI - Board of General Presbyters - Minister?s Retirement Fund Administrative Committee - Church School Executive Committee - President of Pentecostal Publishing House - Harvestime Director and Speaker - 8821 Dunn Rd. - Hazelwood, MO 63042 - phone: 314-839-2516

Eastland United Pentecostal Church: 206 N. Dixie - Eastland, TX 76448 - phone: 254-629-2410 - Current Pastor: Windell Chance
phone: 254-629-1823

Wendell P. Elms: Presbyter for Texas District of UPCI - 4353 Chelsea - Wichita Falls, TX 76309 - phone: 817-696-5673

Kerry Sharp: 3706 Woodcrest Dr. - Temple, TX 76502
phone: 817-778-0689

David K. Bernard: Presbyter for Texas District of UPCI - Associate Editor and Executive Publication Committee for The Pentecostal Herald (this magazine is recommended reading for every member of any United Pentecostal Church) - 4405 Andalusia Dr. - Austin, TX 78759 - phone: 512-795-0505

James L. Kilgore: District General Presbyter for State of Texas - Superintendent for Texas District of UPCI - PO Box 15175 - Houston, TX 77020 - phone: 281-996-5630

Danny R. Russo: Secretary/Treasurer for Texas District of UPCI - Rt. 4 Box 1947 - Lufkin, TX 75901 - phone: 409-632-4764

First United Pentecostal Church of Athens Texas: 101 McArthur - PO Box 431 - Athens, TX 75751 - phone: 903-675-5089
Pastor: O. E. Davis - 206 S. Wofford Street - Athens, TX 75751

Bobby Hart: 10600 F.M. 753 - Athens, TX 75751 - phone: 903-675-6765

Gateway College of Evangelism: PO Box C - Florissant, Missouri 63031 - phone: 314-838-8858 - website: http://www.gatewaycollege.net/

[Michael Phelps]

Apparently this protection from the GOBN does happen:

http://www.reformation.com/CSA/Hart1.htm

Yes, but to my knowledge, no one has proven that it exists in the specific case mentioned in this thread. The Missiouri case, that is.

[J-Roc]

Yes, but to my knowledge, no one has proven that it exists in the specific case mentioned in this thread. The Missiouri case, that is.


Well, this seems to support the possibility of the GOBN in effect...see link


http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=225267&postcount=118

[Michael Phelps]

Well, this seems to support the possibility of the GOBN in effect...see link


http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=225267&postcount=118

Understood. However, my post was in reference to FringeNutter's continued assertations that the GOBN was likely to cover up this particular case. I detected a note of bitterness in his repeated usage of the phrase, and that's what I was addressing. However, he's answered my post, and I understand his point.

It's entirely possible that the GOBN may try and cover up this Missouri case, and if they do, they should be prosecuted along with the offender. No arguments from me on that point.

I just try not to jump to that conclusion right off the bat.

[J-Roc]

Understood. However, my post was in reference to FringeNutter's continued assertations that the GOBN was likely to cover up this particular case. I detected a note of bitterness in his repeated usage of the phrase, and that's what I was addressing. However, he's answered my post, and I understand his point.

It's entirely possible that the GOBN may try and cover up this Missouri case, and if they do, they should be prosecuted along with the offender. No arguments from me on that point.

I just try not to jump to that conclusion right off the bat.

Believe me...I understand where you are coming from as I also warned Nutter not to jump the gun and identified how many times he used the term GOBN in less than 5 minutes...and I think it was duly noted by Nutter. However, since then, there are hints of the GOBN doing their thing as seen by the link I posted above....but I am glad that I have seen some UCs come on this thread and denounce this sort of thing and not remain quiet simply because it is a fellow minister....

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Understood. However, my post was in reference to FringeNutter's continued assertations that the GOBN was likely to cover up this particular case. I detected a note of bitterness in his repeated usage of the phrase, and that's what I was addressing. However, he's answered my post, and I understand his point.

It's entirely possible that the GOBN may try and cover up this Missouri case, and if they do, they should be prosecuted along with the offender. No arguments from me on that point.

I just try not to jump to that conclusion right off the bat.

As I responded previously, I didn't assert that the GOBN would cover it up. I was hoping their would be no need for their use and making speculations. The guy confessed. I'm relatively new here. Others I know posted here and I had no time for this board. Please forgive me. I'll take a chill pill, sit back, and hope that justice prevails. I came back yesterday after a long hiatus. Not wanting to jump in and make any body upset. How do you get the smilies to work??

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Believe me...I understand where you are coming from as I also warned Nutter not to jump the gun and identified how many times he used the term GOBN in less than 5 minutes...and I think it was duly noted by Nutter. However, since then, there are hints of the GOBN doing their thing as seen by the link I posted above....but I am glad that I have seen some UCs come on this thread and denounce this sort of thing and not remain quiet simply because it is a fellow minister....

OK, guys. Are we straight on this? I apologized. Someone sent me a poem about the GOBN and I am so wanting to post it, but won't now.

[ILG]

OK, guys. Are we straight on this? I apologized. Someone sent me a poem about the GOBN and I am so wanting to post it, but won't now.

I'd love to see it. The GOBN does exist, but it might not have anything to do with this case. You could post in a separate thread.

[J-Roc]

OK, guys. Are we straight on this? I apologized. Someone sent me a poem about the GOBN and I am so wanting to post it, but won't now.

Please dont hold back....post the GOBN poem here...

[Michael Phelps]

Please dont hold back....post the GOBN poem here...

Nutter, I want to make sure we have this straight, I agree with you that the Good Old Boy network exists, I think anyone would be foolish to not acknowledge its existence, or naive, at least.

And, you explained yourself, I have no more issue with what you said.

Now, please feel free to post the poem!:sos

And, you should have a field to the right of the text box when you reply where the smilies live........:bedtime

[pelathais]

As I responded previously, I didn't assert that the GOBN would cover it up. I was hoping their would be no need for their use and making speculations. The guy confessed. I'm relatively new here. Others I know posted here and I had no time for this board. Please forgive me. I'll take a chill pill, sit back, and hope that justice prevails. I came back yesterday after a long hiatus. Not wanting to jump in and make any body upset. How do you get the smilies to work??
:grumpyDouble clicking on one of the smilies to the right of the REPLY box will add it to your reply at whatever place the cursor is within the REPLY box. :)

You can edit what smilies are available there from your Control Panel - "USER CP" at the top of the page. The "POST ICONS" below the REPLY box will appear as a part of your post at the top to tip off readers to your emotions - sad, angry, tongue in cheek, etc. You can also drag and drop these into your REPLY box. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Or do what I do: If I'm angry I just pound out my post real hard on my keyboard. When people can hear me furiously hammering on the keyboard they know that I'm angry and they can prepare to respond with the appropriate level of sarcasm that I deserve. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Ferd]

Apparently this protection from the GOBN does happen:

http://www.reformation.com/CSA/Hart1.htm

just a little perspective. your evidence is a decade old bro.

[Steve Epley]

I feel so sorry for the girl-her family-the church family-the pastor's family. The harm this man has done. Some wounds never heal.

[Sister Alvear]

It is very hard for things like this to ever heal...so many are usually destroyed and confidence in the ministry is broken...I pray for all involved.

[MissBrattified]

Wow. I'm feeling pretty sick to my stomach right about now. I grew up in Joplin, and Huling's daughter (sorry, I couldn't muster up a "brother") and I went to school together. She was the maid of honor at our wedding. C. Huling has been pastor in Webb City for a long time, and was presbyter at some point over Section 6.

I've spent the night at their home lots of times, went sledding with their kids, horseback riding. *sigh*

Sickening.

[MissBrattified]

This is a horrible thing to happen..My heart breaks for the child.


When I read the article in the Globe I was upset over the graphic details they told. I do not agree with that, for various reasons.
One thing is even more of her privacy has been violated.

The last 3/4 articles dealing with sexual crimes they have ran, they have been graphic.

What do you think?

I don't believe the victim's privacy is violated since her name wasn't shared. (Although those close to the case will know who she is.)

I think printing graphic details is a simple acknowledgment of the heinous nature of these crimes.

[H2H]

Wow. I'm feeling pretty sick to my stomach right about now. I grew up in Joplin, and Huling's daughter (sorry, I couldn't muster up a "brother") and I went to school together. She was the maid of honor at our wedding. C. Huling has been pastor in Webb City for a long time, and was presbyter at some point over Section 6.

I've spent the night at their home lots of times, went sledding with their kids, horseback riding. *sigh*

Sickening.

Sorry for you being so connected to this... I do think he was still presbyter, but I may be wrong.

[MissBrattified]

Sorry for you being so connected to this... I do think he was still presbyter, but I may be wrong.

He may be...I don't know. :nah

[J-Roc]

I wonder if the authorities will check his internet activity for clues of whether he viewed child pornography or for clues of whether he targeted other children.

[myhaloisintheshop]

Sorry for you being so connected to this... I do think he was still presbyter, but I may be wrong.

He wasn't. When it was time to elect --or rather re elect--he withdrew his name.


It certainly is a sad situation and I feel for his poor wife, kids and church.

I had heard rumors of this a few months ago but refused to believe it until something more solid came forth.....

For anyone that knew him--it is quite a shock

[MissBrattified]

He wasn't. When it was time to elect --or rather re elect--he withdrew his name.


It certainly is a sad situation and I feel for his poor wife, kids and church.

I had heard rumors of this a few months ago but refused to believe it until something more solid came forth.....

For anyone that knew him--it is quite a shock

myhalo, who is presbyter now?

It definitely is a shock. I would be inclined to defend him...if he hadn't already confessed.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Nutter, I want to make sure we have this straight, I agree with you that the Good Old Boy network exists, I think anyone would be foolish to not acknowledge its existence, or naive, at least.

And, you explained yourself, I have no more issue with what you said.

Now, please feel free to post the poem!:sos

And, you should have a field to the right of the text box when you reply where the smilies live........:bedtime


J-Roc said post it, too. So, here it is. Not saying I agree with all of it. I've read some funny stuff while I was lurking here. This is not particularly funny. Some truth in it, though. This was sent to me and I did cut and paste, which I recently learned. Anyone give computer lessons? (spoken in jest)

THE GOOD OLE BOYS NETWORK

It’s not the organization – it’s only just a part.

But it can make or break you, if you’re not in it from the start.

Liars, Thieves, Deceivers – they’re members one and all.

It’s the Good Ole Boys Network – Do they really have The Call?


Truth is what they make it and they can make a lie seem like truth,

It doesn’t matter if they’re right or wrong, the G-O-B-N makes them tamperproof.

They know they have the power and power corrupts.

It’s the Good Ole Boys Network – Are they really up to snuff?


Now they’ll carry the Word of God under their arm,

They want to make you believe that they’ll do you no harm,

In the city or the country, on the road or on the farm,

It’s the Good Ole Boys Network – Should we sound the alarm?


Jesus is a coming. He’s coming very soon.

For some there’ll be rejoicing. For others there’ll be gloom.

We’ll all be a looking and the Good Ole Boys will, too.

It’s the Good Ole Boys Network – Will they finally meet their doom?

[Steve Epley]

Sin is always horrible. May the Lord give grace to those who are hurt.

[H2H]

He wasn't. When it was time to elect --or rather re elect--he withdrew his name.


It certainly is a sad situation and I feel for his poor wife, kids and church.

I had heard rumors of this a few months ago but refused to believe it until something more solid came forth.....

For anyone that knew him--it is quite a shock

Thank you for the corrections. I had heard he "was" presbyter - I assumed that meant he withdrew when the charges came out.

BTW To your earlier question - no I do not live in that community, and the information I have is second hand. I am resisting commenting much beyond what was clear in the news reports.

[H2H]

Sin is always horrible. May the Lord give grace to those who are hurt.

Indeed.

[tv1a]

You just opened up a topic many do not want to address.

I wonder if the authorities will check his internet activity for clues of whether he viewed child pornography or for clues of whether he targeted other children.

[MissBrattified]

You just opened up a topic many do not want to address.

Internet usage? It needs to be addressed. But it may or may not have anything to do with this case or this thread.

[tv1a]

The fact it took almost 20 pages before it was suggested ought to raise a few eyebrows from the politcally astute.

Internet usage? It needs to be addressed. But it may or may not have anything to do with this case or this thread.

[MissBrattified]

The fact it took almost 20 pages before it was suggested ought to raise a few eyebrows from the politcally astute.

I really don't see how, tv1. It wasn't mentioned in the article, so what does it have to do with this case? Personally, I doubt the Hulings even have the internet. They are very outdoorsy people, when I was there last, they didn't even have a computer. (Granted a few years ago, but not that long.)

I agree the internet is a problem with many people, and the fact that it has more negative potential than TV does need to be addressed, but it has little or nothing to do with this thread or case at this point, unless new information is revealed at some point.

Just because internet is a problem doesn't mean it is the source for every moral failure. There were children being molested, adultery being committed and other crimes being imagined and carried out long before internet was a major player.

[J-Roc]

I really don't see how, tv1. It wasn't mentioned in the article, so what does it have to do with this case? Personally, I doubt the Hulings even have the internet. They are very outdoorsy people, when I was there last, they didn't even have a computer. (Granted a few years ago, but not that long.)

I agree the internet is a problem with many people, and the fact that it has more negative potential than TV does need to be addressed, but it has little or nothing to do with this thread or case at this point, unless new information is revealed at some point.

Just because internet is a problem doesn't mean it is the source for every moral failure. There were children being molested, adultery being committed and other crimes being imagined and carried out long before internet was a major player.



Don't believe the hype...

[MissBrattified]

Don't believe the hype...

I'm only saying that from my experiences at their home. ...of course, I would've never suspected CH of being capable of molesting a child either.

[tv1a]

My issue is it took almost 20 pages before someone brought that up as a possibility. Why did it take over a hundred posts before someone brought it up? That's the real story. I'm a thinker and the thinker in me thinks a little digging by the proper people may reveal what caused this dam to burst.

There were moral failures before telvision. There were moral failures before prayer was taken out of schools. Yet somehow every ilk is linked to those two.


I really don't see how, tv1. It wasn't mentioned in the article, so what does it have to do with this case? Personally, I doubt the Hulings even have the internet. They are very outdoorsy people, when I was there last, they didn't even have a computer. (Granted a few years ago, but not that long.)

I agree the internet is a problem with many people, and the fact that it has more negative potential than TV does need to be addressed, but it has little or nothing to do with this thread or case at this point, unless new information is revealed at some point.

Just because internet is a problem doesn't mean it is the source for every moral failure. There were children being molested, adultery being committed and other crimes being imagined and carried out long before internet was a major player.

[J-Roc]

I'm only saying that from my experiences at their home. ...of course, I would've never suspected CH of being capable of molesting a child either.


I doubt CH one day woke up and decided to be a Child Molester...I would suspect that other events (i.e. consistent internet porn usage, etc.) began creeping into his life before he took the risk of going into child molestation....just IMO....therefore, I think there is relevancy to discuss it here.

[MissBrattified]

My issue is it took almost 20 pages before someone brought that up as a possibility. Why did it take over a hundred posts before someone brought it up? That's the real story. I'm a thinker and the thinker in me thinks a little digging by the proper people may reveal what caused this dam to burst.

There were moral failures before telvision. There were moral failures before prayer was taken out of schools. Yet somehow every ilk is linked to those two.

I didn't say that the internet isn't linked to moral failures. LOL! I just pointed out that it wasn't mentioned in the article, and he obviously molested a "real girl", and thus far hasn't been charged with child porn, viewing, possessing or otherwise. Since the internet wasn't mentioned in any way, even in passing, I didn't think of it, even in passing. I did idly wonder if the girl he confessed to molesting was his only victim....but again, I was thinking "real life", rather than some virtual cyber crime....

[MissBrattified]

I doubt CH one day woke up and decided to be a Child Molester...I would suspect that other events (i.e. consistent internet porn usage, etc.) began creeping into his life before he took the risk of going into child molestation....just IMO....therefore, I think there is relevancy to discuss it here.

I'm sure you're right.

[J-Roc]

I'm sure you're right.

For all we know there can be people who lurk around as guests of this forum who may be suffering from internet porn or other such diseases...hopefully they wise up and realize this (CH's alleged crime) is what that avenue can lead to...it's an insidious disease that needs to be put in a stranglehold...NOW!

[pelathais]

...There were moral failures before telvision. There were moral failures before prayer was taken out of schools. Yet somehow every ilk is linked to those two.
I wish it were that simple. I have seen the ravages that failings and sin of this kind can take upon a family and church- but I don't think television or school prayer had anything to do with them.

FWIW, I really don't think prayer in the school had anything to do with anything else - in any way. I do believe in the power of prayer, however that rather bland and innocuous "prayer" that was done in the '50s and early 60's had no real spiritual impact of any kind.

I was in school when prayer was "removed" and nothing was really changed by that. The only thing of note that I remember was the day I learned that Protestants and Catholics had different ways of saying the Lord's Prayer. No big deal there and then next... no prayers except before a football game.

I think the only generalization we can make from this is that we are all human and are responsible for how we treat one another. Other people don't exist for our gratification and the more vulnerable a person is, the more attention we need to pay to protecting them.

[Amos]

For all we know there can be people who lurk around as guests of this forum who may be suffering from internet porn or other such diseases...hopefully they wise up and realize this (CH's alleged crime) is what that avenue can lead to...it's an insidious disease that needs to be put in a stranglehold...NOW!

This is the truth, and needs to be said.

Lust is like a stream that leads toa river, and the river that eventually flows into the ocean.

It gets bigger and deeper as it goes.

When one strats out in that direction, he never knows how far it will take him.

I too am inclined to think there is at least the possibility that this man started out somewhere and that there were events that led up to this.

That doesn't necessarily have to be so, because there was child molesting going on long before child porn was readily available.

But more often than not I daresay it is involved.

[tamor]

Sin is always horrible. May the Lord give grace to those who are hurt.

Amen, Bro Epley. Amen.

[Coonskinner]

Sin is always horrible. May the Lord give grace to those who are hurt.


If you're looking for relevance, here it is.

[tamor]

If you're looking for relevance, here it is.

Yes it is.

[myhaloisintheshop]

myhalo, who is presbyter now?

It definitely is a shock. I would be inclined to defend him...if he hadn't already confessed.

I feel the same way.

Loy Bowen.

[MissBrattified]

I feel the same way.

Loy Bowen.

I thought of Bro. Bowen...he's been presbyter several times.

[myhaloisintheshop]

MANY times. There is only two ministers in that section that I personally believe would be te right men for that job--Mickey Lewis and Bro (I totally forgot his first name) Roberson. But that is neither here nor there.

When we moved here we got a call from CH. They were talking church business (a church had closed and he wanted us to come back to help) and he told my husband that rumors were being spread that he was addicted to porn and the rumor was that he was seeking counseling over the situation. My husband confessed that he HAD heard the rumors but discounted them.

I dont' know if that is true or not but looking back--maybe he was afraid of what doors that would open.

(And yes...the Hulings do have internet.)

[Hoovie]

MANY times. There is only two ministers in that section that I personally believe would be te right men for that job--Mickey Lewis and Bro (I totally forgot his first name) Roberson. But that is neither here nor there.

When we moved here we got a call from CH. They were talking church business (a church had closed and he wanted us to come back to help) and he told my husband that rumors were being spread that he was addicted to porn and the rumor was that he was seeking counseling over the situation. My husband confessed that he HAD heard the rumors but discounted them.

I dont' know if that is true or not but looking back--maybe he was afraid of what doors that would open.

(And yes...the Hulings do have internet.)

Interesting information - but a very sad thread. The question is, would this have happened if he had not seen the internet porn?

Maybe the Amish are right?

The fact is molestation exists where technology does not, but if things are readily seen that are a shame to speak about, it may very well push someone over the edge....

Maybe the UC's have a point when they say some should rethink not only TV but even the internet.

[MissBrattified]

MANY times. There is only two ministers in that section that I personally believe would be te right men for that job--Mickey Lewis and Bro (I totally forgot his first name) Roberson. But that is neither here nor there.

When we moved here we got a call from CH. They were talking church business (a church had closed and he wanted us to come back to help) and he told my husband that rumors were being spread that he was addicted to porn and the rumor was that he was seeking counseling over the situation. My husband confessed that he HAD heard the rumors but discounted them.

I don't know if that is true or not but looking back--maybe he was afraid of what doors that would open.

(And yes...the Hulings do have internet.)

*sigh*

Well, it has been a few years since I was there. Why would he be re-elected presbyter if he had a problem with porn? (Assuming other ministers knew about it, that is)

Bro. Robertson's first name is Rex. He would make a very good presbyter. He pastors the church my Dad used to pastor. I think they're building a new church (or maybe they already have).

Mickey Lewis...where is he from originally? Is he related to the Lewis's from SouthEast MO? I don't think we've met him....

[Steve Epley]

I guess I am so computer illiterate I would not have the foggiest idea on how to access porn over the internet? I have NEVER seen anything promoting it so a person evidently must search for it thus indicating a deep problem fed by what they were searching for?

[myhaloisintheshop]

*sigh*

Well, it has been a few years since I was there. Why would he be re-elected presbyter if he had a problem with porn? (Assuming other ministers knew about it, that is)

Bro. Robertson's first name is Rex. He would make a very good presbyter. He pastors the church my Dad used to pastor. I think they're building a new church (or maybe they already have).

Mickey Lewis...where is he from originally? Is he related to the Lewis's from SouthEast MO? I don't think we've met him....


Bro Lewis is from Mississippi originally but now pastors in Aurora. Bro Roberson is my brother's pastor. They are in the process of building. He has an amazing church.

I think CH was disputing that he DID have a problem and that it was just rumors. Like i said.. I don't know IF he did have that problem or not. I just chose not to believe it at the time. Im sure other ministers assumed he was innocent as well.

[MissBrattified]

I guess I am so computer illiterate I would not have the foggiest idea on how to access porn over the internet? I have NEVER seen anything promoting it so a person evidently must search for it thus indicating a deep problem fed by what they were searching for?

I've had a few inappropriate emails (but nothing for porn...usually "friend" search or drug advertisments)...and I've encountered surprising things in Google image searches...BUT...I NEVER have pop-ups. I'm of the educated opinion, that generally speaking, you get what you go looking for.

[MissBrattified]

Bro Lewis is from Mississippi originally but now pastors in Aurora. Bro Roberson is my brother's pastor. They are in the process of building. He has an amazing church.

I think CH was disputing that he DID have a problem and that it was just rumors. Like i said.. I don't know IF he did have that problem or not. I just chose not to believe it at the time. I'm sure other ministers assumed he was innocent as well.

I see. :coffee2

[Subdued]

I guess I am so computer illiterate I would not have the foggiest idea on how to access porn over the internet? I have NEVER seen anything promoting it so a person evidently must search for it thus indicating a deep problem fed by what they were searching for?

Not true... I've seen porn sites accidentally when I've misspelled a web sites address. My son saw one while searching for info on a kids TV show (he misspelled the name). Also, before "pop-up blockers," I've had porn ads pop up on my monitor.

[Felicity]

I've had a few inappropriate emails (but nothing for porn...usually "friend" search or drug advertisments)...and I've encountered surprising things in Google image searches...BUT...I NEVER have pop-ups. I'm of the educated opinion, that generally speaking, you get what you go looking for.I've never had pop-ups or porn spam email either, but have run into garbage a few times when doing google searches.

[ILG]

Wow. I'm feeling pretty sick to my stomach right about now. I grew up in Joplin, and Huling's daughter (sorry, I couldn't muster up a "brother") and I went to school together. She was the maid of honor at our wedding. C. Huling has been pastor in Webb City for a long time, and was presbyter at some point over Section 6.

I've spent the night at their home lots of times, went sledding with their kids, horseback riding. *sigh*

Sickening.

Horrifying.

[Esther]

I've had a few inappropriate emails (but nothing for porn...usually "friend" search or drug advertisments)...and I've encountered surprising things in Google image searches...BUT...I NEVER have pop-ups. I'm of the educated opinion, that generally speaking, you get what you go looking for.

I wish I could say that. I have had porn email, and I assure you I have NOT visited their sites. And on a very rare occurrence do a search that hit a porn site.

As to pop-ups, I don't recall getting any porn pop-ups.

[ILG]

Interesting information - but a very sad thread. The question is, would this have happened if he had not seen the internet porn?

Maybe the Amish are right?

The fact is molestation exists where technology does not, but if things are readily seen that are a shame to speak about, it may very well push someone over the edge....

Maybe the UC's have a point when they say some should rethink not only TV but even the internet.

Are you saying there is no child molestation amongst the Amish? No way!!

[Hoovie]

Are you saying there is no child molestation amongst the Amish? No way!!

If you read my post I am implying just the opposite.

[ILG]

I've had a few inappropriate emails (but nothing for porn...usually "friend" search or drug advertisments)...and I've encountered surprising things in Google image searches...BUT...I NEVER have pop-ups. I'm of the educated opinion, that generally speaking, you get what you go looking for.

When I was working at a certain library, a young boy who was innocently sitting at a computer had some porn pop up. This was one of his first times on the computer and he was not trying to access porn, but we had kids who came in regularly that did. We had security on these computers so that every time it was shut down, it cleared all history and downloads. Unfortunately, this poor kid got an eyeful. It does happen.

[ILG]

I wish I could say that. I have had porn email, and I assure you I have NOT visited their sites. And on a very rare occurrence do a search that hit a porn site.

As to pop-ups, I don't recall getting any porn pop-ups.

I regularly get porn email that goes into my junk mail. I can assure you that I have neither looked for porn nor gave any of these people my address. Actually, I started reporting it but heard that reporting it can actually have a boomerang effect of getting more, so I just ignore it. I wish someone would address these issues. My husband said that some are fighting for a dot xxx domain that pornographers would have to use and that would really be good. But the pornographers don't want it because they would have a harder time hooking people. This stuff ought to be illegal.

[ILG]

If you read my post I am implying just the opposite.

Sorry, I reread it and understand what you are saying. You do have a point. It is very hard to be any type of mainstream now though without having internet. We do so much stuff on there. I wish the problem would be addressed on a different level...

[Hoovie]

Sorry, I reread it and understand what you are saying. You do have a point. It is very hard to be any type of mainstream now though without having internet. We do so much stuff on there. I wish the problem would be addressed on a different level...

That is the dilemma. In the end it really is a heart issue, but SOME PEOPLE may need to deal with this by setting severe limits on themselves.

There has to be more openness about this issue, as it seems labeling it a forbidden taboo and one we cannot even discuss has a backlash effect. Sin thrives in secrecy.

[ILG]

That is the dilemma. In the end it really is a heart issue, but SOME PEOPLE may need to deal with this by setting severe limits on themselves.

There has to be more openness about this issue, as it seems labeling it a forbidden taboo and one we cannot even discuss has a backlash effect. Sin thrives in secrecy.

That is a very valid point. The problem with banning things (not saying it has NO good effect) is that the lawless do not care. I'm afraid then that this type of structured atmosphere does more to protect the people who are sinning that it does to help the others. I wish it were as easy as banning something. I wrote an article called Walling in of a Reprobate a couple of year back. I will post the link here because I think it is relevant. Here is is:

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/lynne/reprobate.html

[HADDOCK]

I do want to chime in about this talk about the good ole boy network and sweeping things under the rug.

I do believe that has been the case regarding some prominent Pentecostal preachers sons regarding adultery BUT I do not know of a single case where child molestation was covered up and I have a hard time believing that would happen. ....

Since this has come up in this thread....

Suppose a UPC pastor (or any pastor) becomes aware of fact (not rumored, because the man and the victim told the same story to the pastor) of one of his male members sexually abusing his own step-daughter, should the pastor report this to law enforcement officials or simply counsel with the family and cover it up?

[Pragmatist]

Since this has come up in this thread....

Suppose a UPC pastor (or any pastor) becomes aware of fact (not rumored, because the man and the victim told the same story to the pastor) of one of his male members sexually abusing his own step-daughter, should the pastor report this to law enforcement officials or simply counsel with the family and cover it up?

Aren't pastors mandatory reporters of child abuse?

[Amos]

Since this has come up in this thread....

Suppose a UPC pastor (or any pastor) becomes aware of fact (not rumored, because the man and the victim told the same story to the pastor) of one of his male members sexually abusing his own step-daughter, should the pastor report this to law enforcement officials or simply counsel with the family and cover it up?


We are required by law to report it.

I do not make exceptions on that one.

[HeavenlyOne]

I guess I am so computer illiterate I would not have the foggiest idea on how to access porn over the internet? I have NEVER seen anything promoting it so a person evidently must search for it thus indicating a deep problem fed by what they were searching for?

Not necessarily. There are websites that might seem innocent in name only to find out they are covering for something more.......or is that the right way to word it? :nah

For instance, there is a lady hunter website that LadyRev frequents. She once typed an S at the end of the word before the .com and got something totally different than she was expecting.

They were women hunters alright!

I once accidently happened upon a website that I thought was about the President. Wrong White House, apparently!

[HADDOCK]

We are required by law to report it.

I do not make exceptions on that one.


That was my understanding. Actually I believe in some states ANY person is required to report. I also understand that UPC ministers are instructed and possibly even have seminars in regard to these issues.

Well, in the case mentioned, the UPC minister did not report it. The matter eventually is reported by someone - a few years later actually and the man is indicted, arrested and eventually enters a guilty plea and now is required to register as a sex offender. He got 3 years, but all probation. slap

When the incident happened many folks "assumed" he had had an affair and it was left at that. This family had other children, boys and girls, in the home and yet church families were not warned that if they allowed their child to go to the home even for overnight stays, that there was a sexual child molester there.

The child victim was made out as the villan.

[Rachel]

Since this has come up in this thread....

Suppose a UPC pastor (or any pastor) becomes aware of fact (not rumored, because the man and the victim told the same story to the pastor) of one of his male members sexually abusing his own step-daughter, should the pastor report this to law enforcement officials or simply counsel with the family and cover it up?

That shouldn't even be a question. Report it.

[ILG]

Since this has come up in this thread....

Suppose a UPC pastor (or any pastor) becomes aware of fact (not rumored, because the man and the victim told the same story to the pastor) of one of his male members sexually abusing his own step-daughter, should the pastor report this to law enforcement officials or simply counsel with the family and cover it up?

I think the man should be encouraged to turn himself in and if he doesn't, the pastor should do it. I think repentance demands it.

[Bishop1]

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

"A PERVERT IS A PERVERT "

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

:grumpy

Bishop1

[HADDOCK]

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

"A PERVERT IS A PERVERT "

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

:grumpy

Bishop1

I completely understand your response and totally agree!!

[Pastor Keith]

That was my understanding. Actually I believe in some states ANY person is required to report. I also understand that UPC ministers are instructed and possibly even have seminars in regard to these issues.

Well, in the case mentioned, the UPC minister did not report it. The matter eventually is reported by someone - a few years later actually and the man is indicted, arrested and eventually enters a guilty plea and now is required to register as a sex offender. He got 3 years, but all probation. slap

When the incident happened many folks "assumed" he had had an affair and it was left at that. This family had other children, boys and girls, in the home and yet church families were not warned that if they allowed their child to go to the home even for overnight stays, that there was a sexual child molester there.

The child victim was made out as the villan.

A pastor or counselor is a mandated reporter of abuse, elder and child abuse, there has to be no proof, hearsay is alone enough for a report to be made. There is no cloak or expectation of privacy when it comes to abuse. I tell people that up front.

[Steve Epley]

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

"A PERVERT IS A PERVERT "

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

:grumpy

Bishop1

Yep that is the way I see it.

[MissBrattified]

I think the man should be encouraged to turn himself in and if he doesn't, the pastor should do it. I think repentance demands it.

When a minor child's safety hangs in the balance, there is no time to allow for the abuser to make up his mind about whether or not he wants to turn himself in. The first concern should be the safety of the victim. Repentance and other concerns for the abuser can be addressed after that. ...let's say a man is abusing his stepdaughter (as someone hypothesized above)...would a pastor counsel him to consider turning himself in and then allow him to go back home to his stepdaughter?

I only agree if by "encouraged to turn himself in", you mean something along the lines of, "Call the authorities and turn yourself in, right here in my presence, right now, or I will do it myself."

[Newman]

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

"A PERVERT IS A PERVERT "

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"
" A PREVERT IS A PERVERT"

:grumpy

Bishop1

Bishop- I have a hard time wrapping my mind around it but the blood of Jesus covers sin. (However, there are consequences that remain. The forgiven thief still died on his cross). :cool:

[Theresa]

prevert?


now you know

[Margies3]

prevert?


now you know

What's a PREvert?

[Margies3]

There is a family we've known for many years. There were 4 children: 1 boy from her first marriage, then a boy from the current marriage and then twins (boy and girl) from the same marriage.

When the twins turned 2, the mom decided to leave. She told others that she just didn't want to be a mom anymore. She left all the kids with the husband. But she told my mom that she suspected that he was sexually abusing the daughter. My mom pushed her to call the authorities, but she backed down and said, 'well, maybe he's really not. no........ I don't think he is after all'. So Mom thought that she was just making excuses for herself for leaving and she didn't call either. She thought that the woman had lied about him abusing the daughter.

So fast forward now about 20+ years. This daughter gets married. And then she begins to tell her new husband how her father had sexually abused her from the time she was a baby until she was about 13 or 14 years old. The husband pushes her to turn him in, which she does. In the meantime, the man had gotten saved and was living for the Lord. BUT he had never confessed to anyone what he had done to his daughter. Does that mean that his repentance wasn't real??? I don't know.

But when his daughter goes to the authorities, he freely admits what he had done and pled guilty. He is now serving about a 20 year sentence in prison for his crime.

The moral of this story, to me, is this: if someone comes to you (like this mother did) and even has suspicion, make the call to the authorities. My mom kicks herself all the time because if she had called (even tho the mother refused to), perhaps she could have saved that little girl years and years of abuse.

[HADDOCK]

When a minor child's safety hangs in the balance, there is no time to allow for the abuser to make up his mind about whether or not he wants to turn himself in. The first concern should be the safety of the victim. Repentance and other concerns for the abuser can be addressed after that. ...let's say a man is abusing his stepdaughter (as someone hypothesized above)...would a pastor counsel him to consider turning himself in and then allow him to go back home to his stepdaughter?

I only agree if by "encouraged to turn himself in", you mean something along the lines of, "Call the authorities and turn yourself in, right here in my presence, right now, or I will do it myself."

That was not a hypothesis, but a factual, true case. I knew the preacher, the family and because of my employment knew the inside facts of the criminal proceedings. It was also very disturbing because the mother of the child knew as well as the pastor's wife and some other family members who were also members of the same church. It was never reported by the pastor and some outside apparently had suspicion that something was going on even a few years later when the agencies were notified. It was THEN that the incident came to light. One of the agencies involved wanted to bring charges against the mother and the pastor for not reporting but that wasn't done.

[MissBrattified]

That was not a hypothesis, but a factual, true case.

Oh, sorry. Well, it seemed like that, since you said, "Suppose a UPC pastor ...." :coffee2

[ILG]

When a minor child's safety hangs in the balance, there is no time to allow for the abuser to make up his mind about whether or not he wants to turn himself in. The first concern should be the safety of the victim. Repentance and other concerns for the abuser can be addressed after that. ...let's say a man is abusing his stepdaughter (as someone hypothesized above)...would a pastor counsel him to consider turning himself in and then allow him to go back home to his stepdaughter?

I only agree if by "encouraged to turn himself in", you mean something along the lines of, "Call the authorities and turn yourself in, right here in my presence, right now, or I will do it myself."

This is what I mean.

[MissBrattified]

This is what I mean.

Oh Good. Now we have nothing to argue about. You could've strung me along a bit. Made it fun. :coffee2

[HADDOCK]

Oh, sorry. Well, it seemed like that, since you said, "Suppose a UPC pastor ...." :coffee2

I think I did word it that way -- but it is a real situation.

[ILG]

Oh Good. Now we have nothing to argue about. You could've strung me along a bit. Made it fun. :coffee2

Sure! :D

But no, I would not give him one night. But I would do it in such a fashion as to be compassionate. Not TURN YOURSELF IN OR I WILL!!! But "You have admitted your error and that is great. Now, to truly make it right you need to do the rest of it and make a phone call." And then if he doesn't I would.

[HADDOCK]

This situation really took some interesting turns... during the investigation and knowing an indictment was coming, the child agency would not allow the man and the children in the same home. The pastor allowed him to move into the evangelistic quarters in the church building, which is where the man was actually arrested.

In the criminal community it was questioned "Is this how Pentecostals handle these affairs?" -- almost to insinuate they were above the law and took things into their own hands -- the forgive and forget idea.

The pastor also refused to allow the victim to go on certain youth trips --??

The man did counseling but eventually entered a "best interest" plea, which basically meant, I'm not saying I'm guilty, but I know this is in my best interest because if I go to trial it could be a worse outcome! The plea came at the last minute prior to the trial and a subpoena was issued for the pastor to testify.

[RandyWayne]

The pastor also refused to allow the victim to go on certain youth trips --??


I wonder how long the pastor was still "pastor" over the victim and his family? I hope to God it ended then and there.

[BrotherEastman]

I am sorry to hear this, but nothing surprises me anymore. I hope he doesn't get backed up by the good ole boy network.
I won't back him up!

[BrotherEastman]

he was released on 10K bond?

hang the judge.
Exactly! hang the judge!

[HADDOCK]

Actually the "victim" ended up going to live with a grandparent, and yes, the parents and the other children are still under this pastor.

The victim was made to be the villan here and treated as such.

[RandyWayne]

Actually the "victim" ended up going to live with a grandparent, and yes, the parents and the other children are still under this pastor.

This same pastor has very legalistic teachings

I'm willing to bet that the FEAR of God for disobeying a pastor has been deeply entrenched in them and they are too frightened to leave.

[HADDOCK]

I'm willing to bet that the FEAR of God for disobeying a pastor has been deeply entrenched in them and they are too frightened to leave.

The family were actually fairly new in the church, probably less than 7-10 years if that much even. But, yes.....

[bishoph]

Unfortunately I have had to deal with this issue twice during my pastoral career. I can tell you from my experience, that one should never try to hide this kind of sin. The perpetrator must be reported. The pastor in most states can be subpoenaed, however, he/she is exempt (in most states) from disclosing any information given to him/her under privileged information protection. The law is for the lawless and when a person commits this type of offense they have removed themselves from under the rule of grace. (This does not mean they cannot be restored, but they must face the penalty of their actions.)