UPCI was so strict it was almost Amish: Kings of Leon

[SDG]

Kings of Leon love the life of rock
October 4, 2007

BY BEN EDMONDS
FREE PRESS SPECIAL WRITER

From the Wilson family of the Beach Boys to the battling Gallagher brothers of Oasis, rock 'n' roll has a rich fraternal history. This is especially true of Southern rock. Beginning with the brothers Burnette (Johnny and Dorsey) and Everly (Phil and Don), extending through the Allman Brothers and the bands of the Van Zandt clan (of which Ronnie's Lynyrd Skynyrd was only the first) and down to Chris and Rich Robinson of the Black Crowes.

The latest in this lineage are the three brothers (and, like the Beach Boys, a cousin) from Tennessee who call themselves Kings of Leon. Already chart-toppers in England, their steady march toward the same destination Stateside arrives at the Fillmore Detroit on Thursday, where they'll headline a bill that also includes Black Rebel Motorcycle Club and Manchester Orchestra.

The quartet's rootsy, passionate Americana, infused with enough punkish energy to mark them as a modern extension of the Southern rock tradition, attracted critical hosannas in Europe when the debut Kings of Leon album was released in 2003. The band soon found itself opening arena and stadium shows for U2, Oasis and the Strokes. This would have been a daunting proposition for most young bands, but the Kings (as they're known in fan shorthand) embraced it.

"It was a little scary at first," admits bassist Jared Followill, at almost-21 the youngest King. (The others are brothers singer-guitarist Caleb and drummer Nathan, plus cousin Matthew Followill on lead guitar.) "You start out and the coolest thing you can possibly imagine is playing in front of a hundred sweaty kids in some tiny club. That's really cool; we still like doing that. But there's something about playing in front of thousands and thousands of people that can be incredibly inspiring. You should be in it to grow, and reach more and more people."

Like so many Southern rockers before them, Kings of Leon come from a church background where secular music was forbidden. Perhaps escaped that background would be a better description, according to Jared. "It was so strict it was almost Amish," he says of the United Pentecostal Church, in which their father was a traveling preacher.

"It was ridiculous. You couldn't listen to anything but gospel music. No TV, no movies, no pants or makeup for women. Everything changed when our parents divorced and I started going to public school. We went from a completely sheltered world to a completely un-sheltered world. I loved it! It was like coming up for air."

This helps explain the Kings' already legendary fondness for post-show socializing. "We figured it out the other day," the bassist confides, "and the alcohol that's been consumed on this tour would probably fill eight or nine swimming pools. We learned about partying when we toured with the Strokes. We'd show up for sound check and they'd be there with cups of vodka. I'd seen people drink beer at a football game, but this was the middle of the day! We were basically corrupted by the Strokes. Then they stopped drinking, so the joke's on us."

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071004/ENT04/710040328/1039

[LadyRev]

One of the saddest stories I know of is this family and its now grown boys.

[Kutless]

I wonder what true percentage truly represents what they say? Believe me I know a couple but on the other side there are those that are not like that. Wouldn't you agree that bunching everyone together is unfair and ignorant?

[redeemedcynic84]

the sad thing...

is that I would say many who read this article are going to hear of us for the first time...

and most of those people will agree with what he said...

[CC1]

You should have highlighted the last paragraph. That is the saddest.

I grieve when people throw out the baby with the bathwater. These young men are going to find out that it wasn't the legalism they need but a transforming relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is obvious they are headed for the same disaster in life that most rock and roll folks have as they live life with no limits and to excess.

I pray that somehow they discover that their heritage was more than Amish like rules and regulations but a relationship with the Creator of the Universe.

[MrsMcD]

You should have highlighted the last paragraph. That is the saddest.

I grieve when people throw out the baby with the bathwater. These young men are going to find out that it wasn't the legalism they need but a transforming relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is obvious they are headed for the same disaster in life that most rock and roll folks have as they live life with no limits and to excess.

I pray that somehow they discover that their heritage was more than Amish like rules and regulations but a relationship with the Creator of the Universe.

Ditto!

[DividedThigh]

too badddd, lol the devil deceives folks every day, and these boys are deceived, and drawn of course by the fame, fortune, and whatever, sad story,dt:hypercoffee

[redeemedcynic84]

You should have highlighted the last paragraph. That is the saddest.

I grieve when people throw out the baby with the bathwater. These young men are going to find out that it wasn't the legalism they need but a transforming relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is obvious they are headed for the same disaster in life that most rock and roll folks have as they live life with no limits and to excess.

I pray that somehow they discover that their heritage was more than Amish like rules and regulations but a relationship with the Creator of the Universe.

Ya know...

the sad thing is that the rules are part of our heritage... To say they aren't is, well, to be blind to what we've been...

our only heritage should be a relationship with Christ, but we didn't stop there and it hurts young people like these 4 young men...

[Kutless]

You should have highlighted the last paragraph. That is the saddest.

I grieve when people throw out the baby with the bathwater. These young men are going to find out that it wasn't the legalism they need but a transforming relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is obvious they are headed for the same disaster in life that most rock and roll folks have as they live life with no limits and to excess.

I pray that somehow they discover that their heritage was more than Amish like rules and regulations but a relationship with the Creator of the Universe.awesome CC....now pick up that guitar and talk to me.

[tbpew]

You should have highlighted the last paragraph. That is the saddest.



It would seem that was not the point Daniel wanted to bring emphasis to for the readers of his posts at AFF.

[redeemedcynic84]

too badddd, lol the devil deceives folks every day, and these boys are deceived, and drawn of course by the fame, fortune, and whatever, sad story,dt:hypercoffee

they aren't decieved by the devil, they were killed by us...

The devil didn't have to do anything... Our rules were so far from where they should have been, regulated against so many things that didn't need to be, that when they got "freedom from them" and because they didn't have a relationship wtih Christ (because all that they were taught was following the rules, like many young people), that they went "hey, this isn't bad" and just kept pushing it...

the Devil didn't have to do anything with these boys, he let us take them so far from the world that when they were released on the world the slingshot of where we took them put them so far out there that they might never get back...

[MrsMcD]

Ya know...

the sad thing is that the rules are part of our heritage... To say they aren't is, well, to be blind to what we've been...

our only heritage should be a relationship with Christ, but we didn't stop there and it hurts young people like these 4 young men...

It is part of our heritage but these men need to get the bible out and see what is of Christ and what isn't. There is no reason to take all the good out with the not so good. We are all responsible for our own relationship with Jesus Christ. It seems to me that with age, people should mature enough to study the word for themselves. There is no reason to throw it all away.

[Coonskinner]

[QUOTE=CC1;262658]You should have highlighted the last paragraph. That is the saddest.

QUOTE]

It would seem that was not the point Daniel wanted to bring emphasis to for the readers of his posts at AFF.

Right.

Another slam against the UPC was the point.

Ridicule, mockery, criticism.

Since when has any backslider ever had much good to say about the church?

I've heard all that before.

[DividedThigh]

they aren't decieved by the devil, they were killed by us...

The devil didn't have to do anything... Our rules were so far from where they should have been, regulated against so many things that didn't need to be, that when they got "freedom from them" and because they didn't have a relationship wtih Christ (because all that they were taught was following the rules, like many young people), that they went "hey, this isn't bad" and just kept pushing it...

the Devil didn't have to do anything with these boys, he let us take them so far from the world that when they were released on the world the slingshot of where we took them put them so far out there that they might never get back...

ok young man, you can sit around the rest of your life and blame the church, but whether you like it or not they are deceived and on the wrong path, and it doestn matter who you blame it is still true, i agree with much of what you said, but what i said is accurate, because no matter how they go into the mess they are in now, it is all the same, to bad and very sad, dt:hypercoffee

[redeemedcynic84]

It is part of our heritage but these men need to get the bible out and see what is of Christ and what isn't. There is no reason to take all the good out with the not so good. We are all responsible for our own relationship with Jesus Christ. It seems to me that with age, people should mature enough to study the word for themselves. There is no reason to throw it all away.

YES IT IS!!

When you've been hurt by things for long enough, you stop caring what the truth behind them is...

There is a point where we can do so much wrong to someone that they reject God because of us...

The problem isn't these young men, its the rules that killed thier willingness to even try and seek God...

[redeemedcynic84]

ok young man, you can sit around the rest of your life and blame the church, but whether you like it or not they are deceived and on the wrong path, and it doestn matter who you blame it is still true, i agree with much of what you said, but what i said is accurate, because no matter how they go into the mess they are in now, it is all the same, to bad and very sad, dt:hypercoffee

I'm not saying they're not in a mess...

I'm saying thier blood (and the blood of those souls who can't bring themselves to find God because of the pain and hurt we've caused them because of our rules) is on our hands.... its our fault...

[CC1]

I have a very close relative who is almost 50 years old now and was raised in one of the absolute top tier large UPC churches.

This person heard the absolute best in Pentecostal preaching and teaching and had a wonderful pastor.

Yet they managed to backslide as a young person around 20 or 21 years old and at the time the rationale was that they had done something wrong that had been exposed and they were going to be kicked out of choir!!!

I could not believe that for this person being in choir was all that church really was.

It just goes to show you that the old saying about leading a horse to water but not being able to make it drink is absolutely true.

This person juked and jived to the great music and shouted with the rest of the church when emotions were high but the fact remains as a young adult theyhad not really listenened to or understood the thousands of hours of teaching and preaching she had heard about Calvary and relationship with Christ. Unbelievable.

Today that person is an alcoholic and has reaped the results of sin sowed over the last quarter century.

[DividedThigh]

I'm not saying they're in a mess...

I'm saying thier blood (and the blood of those souls who can't bring themselves to find God because of the pain and hurt we've caused them because of our rules) is on our hands.... its our fault...

well while i agree it is on somebody, that somebody isnt me, i didnt do that to my own kids or anybody else, i spent 4 of my first years in ministry doing nothing but telling kids they were loved by god and he wanted to have a relationship with them, then i spent 10 years as a pastor preaching and teaching the same, i dont have time to blame the church or anybody but myself for any messes in my life now, and i dont think any of us do, I believe it is our responsibility to make things good with god and move on, my humble opinion, dt:hypercoffee

[Coonskinner]

YES IT IS!!

When you've been hurt by things for long enough, you stop caring what the truth behind them is...

There is a point where we can do so much wrong to someone that they reject God because of us...

The problem isn't these young men, its the rules that killed thier willingness to even try and seek God...

You can keep wailing the blues all you want, but that won't fly in the judgement, for them or anybody else.

I promise you there are those who were treated worse than them, or you, who are living for God and making it.

No excuses.

[Coonskinner]

YES IT IS!!

When you've been hurt by things for long enough, you stop caring what the truth behind them is...

There is a point where we can do so much wrong to someone that they reject God because of us...

The problem isn't these young men, its the rules that killed thier willingness to even try and seek God...

It was unrestrained carnality and love of the world.

Believe me, their dad was no hard core conservative.

I knew him well, and the boys too.

The hypocrisy they saw probably contributed more to their demise than anything else.

It sounds cool to talk about what a victim you were...all part of the mystique.

[redeemedcynic84]

well while i agree it is on somebody, that somebody isnt me, i didnt do that to my own kids or anybody else, i spent 4 of my first years in ministry doing nothing but telling kids they were loved by god and he wanted to have a relationship with them, then i spent 10 years as a pastor preaching and teaching the same, i dont have time to blame the church or anybody but myself for any messes in my life now, and i dont any of us do, I believe it is our responsibility to make things good with god and move on, my humble opinion, dt:hypercoffee

it is on us for allowing those horrible things to be done by people we call brothers...

by allowing our churches to, by and large, become more about rules and "looking the part" than about a relationship with Christ...

no, it isn't your fault personally...

but, as a corporate body, as a group, as the body of Christ, it is all of our fault for allowing this to continue and never standing up and saying "this is HURTING people!!"

[DividedThigh]

You can keep wailing the blues all you want, but that won't fly in the judgement, for them or anybody else.

I promise you there are those who were treated worse than them, or you, who are living for God and making it.

No excuses.

good admonition coonskinner, i know i am one of them, yet i found jesus for myself and overcame it all, that is the key, coming to grips with life, and embracing jesus for yourself, god bless you bro,dt:hypercoffee

[redeemedcynic84]

You can keep wailing the blues all you want, but that won't fly in the judgement, for them or anybody else.

I promise you there are those who were treated worse than them, or you, who are living for God and making it.

No excuses.

I'm not making excuses... and, right now, they are damned...

But the real question is this... are those who imposed the rules that hurt them so badly also damned for hurting them the way that they did? For putting things on them that made them see God as a bunch of rules instead of relationship?

[Coonskinner]

it is on us for allowing those horrible things to be done by people we call brothers...

by allowing our churches to, by and large, become more about rules and "looking the part" than about a relationship with Christ...

no, it isn't your fault personally...

but, as a corporate body, as a group, as the body of Christ, it is all of our fault for allowing this to continue and never standing up and saying "this is HURTING people!!"

The churches I associate with teach relationship.

This is a hollow accusation that may be valid in some extreme cases, but not across the board.

[Coonskinner]

good admonition coonskinner, i know i am one of them, yet i found jesus for myself and overcame it all, that is the key, coming to grips with life, and embracing jesus for yourself, god bless you bro,dt:hypercoffee

Yes it is, friend.

God is too good to allow silly things to separate us from Him.

[redeemedcynic84]

It was unrestrained carnality and love of the world.

Believe me, their dad was no hard core conservative.

I knew him well, and the boys too.

The hypocrisy they saw probably contributed more to their demise than anything else.

It sounds cool to talk about what a victim you were...all part of the mystique.

lol

its funny... they backslide, say how our rules make us almost amish (and they do) and all you can do is rip on thier dad for not ENFORCING THE RULES ENOUGH!!

good job pointing the blame on them instead of looking int he mirror and figureing out if you can learn anything from it...

[redeemedcynic84]

Yes it is, friend.

God is too good to allow silly things to separate us from Him.

umm....

God is there for everyone, God doesn't seperate himself from anyone...

we seperate ourselves from him...

So silly things like that can (and do) seperate people from God...

[Coonskinner]

I'm not making excuses... and, right now, they are damned...

But the real question is this... are those who imposed the rules that hurt them so badly also damned for hurting them the way that they did? For putting things on them that made them see God as a bunch of rules instead of relationship?

All of us will answer to God for wrong that we do, if indeed we are guilty and don't repent.

The thing is, I knew these boys and their family.

They were never "oppressed" by draconian pastors that I ever knew of.

Their dad was a nice guy, happy go lucky and a lot of fun.

And he was in no way a conservative or very strict.

[redeemedcynic84]

The churches I associate with teach relationship.

This is a hollow accusation that may be valid in some extreme cases, but not across the board.

but do you assume that the kid that is jumping around during worship, in the choir, follows all the standards and is in service 3 times a week has a solid relationship with God?

see, we all get cought up in judging people's relationship with God on outward things... it ends up being really easy to hide inward pain...

[Coonskinner]

lol

its funny... they backslide, say how our rules make us almost amish (and they do) and all you can do is rip on thier dad for not ENFORCING THE RULES ENOUGH!!

good job pointing the blame on them instead of looking int he mirror and figureing out if you can learn anything from it...


You are reading into my post things i did not say.

For one thing, the testimony of backsliders is seldom reliable.

Secondly, when did I say their father didn't "enforce" the rules enough?

Point out the words, please.

[CC1]

I think the problem is that some people do not seem capable of seperating the legalism from the relationship.

Especially if raised in churches where the legalism and emotionalism takes priority or at least is equal with any intellectual understanding of God's word it seems some people cant' wade past the first two to grasp the third.

While I absolutely believe that old time Pentecost places many extra biblical obstacles in peoples path to the Gospel I think those obstacles hinder more in reaching people outside the church than those raised in the church.

Also lets not forget the parable of the sower. Some ground is just rocky.

[redeemedcynic84]

All of us will answer to God for wrong that we do, if indeed we are guilty and don't repent.

The thing is, I knew these boys and their family.

They were never "oppressed" by draconian pastors that I ever knew of.

Their dad was a nice guy, happy go lucky and a lot of fun.

And he was in no way a conservative or very strict.

lol

everyone in the UPC is conservative and strict in the grand scheme of conservative/liberal and strictness on earth...

yes, even me...

The point is they didn't say thier dad made them almost amish, they said the whole organization was almost amish.... HUGE difference...

[Kutless]

lol

its funny... they backslide, say how our rules make us almost amish (and they do) and all you can do is rip on thier dad for not ENFORCING THE RULES ENOUGH!!

good job pointing the blame on them instead of looking int he mirror and figureing out if you can learn anything from it...who say he's not. No excuse for rejecting Jesus is good enough

[DividedThigh]

it is on us for allowing those horrible things to be done by people we call brothers...

by allowing our churches to, by and large, become more about rules and "looking the part" than about a relationship with Christ...

no, it isn't your fault personally...

but, as a corporate body, as a group, as the body of Christ, it is all of our fault for allowing this to continue and never standing up and saying "this is HURTING people!!"

while i agree, you would help yourself buddy if you let the bitterness go, i cant say that i am responsible for there hurts, but god knows what happened and if they reach to him he can handle it, i dont let people around me hurt kids or adults with that kind of attitude or preaching, love you brother, dt:hypercoffee

[redeemedcynic84]

I think the problem is that some people do not seem capable of seperating the legalism from the relationship.

Especially if raised in churches where the legalism and emotionalism takes priority or at least is equal with any intellectual understanding of God's word it seems some people cant' wade past the first two to grasp the third.

While I absolutely believe that old time Pentecost places many extra biblical obstacles in peoples path to the Gospel I think those obstacles hinder more in reaching people outside the church than those raised in the church.

Also lets not forget the parable of the sower. Some ground is just rocky.

I think the "extra Biblical obstacles" hurt those in the church more...

look at it this way...

There are men on this board who argue that because of thier past in drug abuse and other things that they see a good reason for the rules and think they are good.

Those who come out of the world, those who were lost and dying and alone... They'll take on whatever obstacle we put in thier path if they get a little more peace than they had at the end...

But the kids in the church, the kids who supposedly "have no pain"... well, when those obstacles come up, they hurt... And, many times, those kids end up hurt more by the church than by anything else in the world...

and by the time they leave they've been hurt so bad that, even though we see it as little because we didn't get hurt hte same way as some of them did, that the obstacles are insurmountable because they became so big in thier minds....

a little hurt can be massively overblown ad grow to something huge in the mind of a teenager who feels alone, boxed in, and like everyone who is suppose to help them is actually hurting them...

[redeemedcynic84]

who say he's not. No excuse for rejecting Jesus is good enough

I'm not giving them an excuse... I'm not saying they deserve a "get out of hell free" card if they never come back to Jesus...

I'm saying we need to learn from them and not allow the same mistakes to EVER happen again...

[redeemedcynic84]

while i agree, you would help yourself buddy if you let the bitterness go, i cant say that i am responsible for there hurts, but god knows what happened and if they reach to him he can handle it, i dont let people around me hurt kids or adults with that kind of attitude or preaching, love you brother, dt:hypercoffee

that's the thing, though... I'm really not bitter...

I'm not...

I am a little angry because I've seen so many who have fallen because no one ever cared to notice the hurt that was obviously there because they jumped through all the hoops (and jumping through the hoops, in thier minds, hurt worse than the pain that was already there, I'm sure)

the point is that the entire system, in and of itself no matter how careful you are, is going to hurt people... It purposefully ostracized us from the society we live in... And that HURTS kids... being the "wierd skirt-wearing kid" or the "kid who doesn't know about television" hurts... just like being the only kid with glasses or the only fat kid or the smartest kid or wahtever else hurts... The only difference is that your parents are FORCING you to take on that pain, rather than it just being something natural that you need to deal with...

[Coonskinner]

I make no excuses for legalists and dictatorial pastors, but i think we live in a day when people have no clue what "hurt' really is.

When people around the world are being tortured and put to death for their faith, we've got crybabies needing counseling because somebody told them they couldn't go to the movies.

Sickening.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

[QUOTE=CC1;262658]You should have highlighted the last paragraph. That is the saddest.

QUOTE]

It would seem that was not the point Daniel wanted to bring emphasis to for the readers of his posts at AFF.

What do you see?
I see yet another attempt to bash the UPC as the problem, when it was the choice of drinking that was the problem.

:hypercoffee

[SDG]

For the crybabies in the thread I've highlighted the second paragraph.

I stumbled on this article this morning simply because Google News Alerts sent it to my inbox. I've been monitoring the secular news for possible stories about the passing of the TV resolution.

As one news channel says ... "We report, you decide" ....

BTW, another story about a rock band boozing it up would not have piqued our interest.

[DividedThigh]

that's the thing, though... I'm really not bitter...

I'm not...

I am a little angry because I've seen so many who have fallen because no one ever cared to notice the hurt that was obviously there because they jumped through all the hoops (and jumping through the hoops, in thier minds, hurt worse than the pain that was already there, I'm sure)

the point is that the entire system, in and of itself no matter how careful you are, is going to hurt people... It purposefully ostracized us from the society we live in... And that HURTS kids... being the "wierd skirt-wearing kid" or the "kid who doesn't know about television" hurts... just like being the only kid with glasses or the only fat kid or the smartest kid or wahtever else hurts... The only difference is that your parents are FORCING you to take on that pain, rather than it just being something natural that you need to deal with...

ok bro, well you and i can do what we can by helping kids and adults around us, that is a start, dont let any anger keep you from showing his love to those that are hurting, because of your hurt you can see it in others, let god use that, amen, dt:hypercoffee

[redeemedcynic84]

I make no excuses for legalists and dictatorial pastors, but i think we live in a day when people have no clue what "hurt' really is.

When people around the world are being tortured and put to death for their faith, we've got crybabies needing counseling because somebody told them they couldn't go to the movies.

Sickening.

another copout...

see, the church gets lazy when they stop being persecuted.. They start worrying about making stupid rules and getting in people's ways... And then the church starts persecuting themselves, and that hurts in a whole different (and many times worse) way...

dying to your faith sounds easy compared to not being able to bring yourself to go to church because it hurts to walk in the door....

[redeemedcynic84]

ok bro, well you and i can do what we can by helping kids and adults around us, that is a start, dont let any anger keep you from showing his love to those that are hurting, because of your hurt you can see it in others, let god use that, amen, dt:hypercoffee

I'm trying... and it is a start, I just wish others could see it, ya know?

[Coonskinner]

another copout...

see, the church gets lazy when they stop being persecuted.. They start worrying about making stupid rules and getting in people's ways... And then the church starts persecuting themselves, and that hurts in a whole different (and many times worse) way...

dying to your faith sounds easy compared to not being able to bring yourself to go to church because it hurts to walk in the door....

Brother,

I hope you find healing.

Peace.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Did you think posting another story about a rock band boozing it up would have piqued our interest?

Pass the whine.

Daniel, I deleted my post.
It was out of line.
If you could zot out my quote.

[CC1]

I think the "extra Biblical obstacles" hurt those in the church more...

look at it this way...

There are men on this board who argue that because of thier past in drug abuse and other things that they see a good reason for the rules and think they are good.

Those who come out of the world, those who were lost and dying and alone... They'll take on whatever obstacle we put in thier path if they get a little more peace than they had at the end...

But the kids in the church, the kids who supposedly "have no pain"... well, when those obstacles come up, they hurt... And, many times, those kids end up hurt more by the church than by anything else in the world...

and by the time they leave they've been hurt so bad that, even though we see it as little because we didn't get hurt hte same way as some of them did, that the obstacles are insurmountable because they became so big in thier minds....

a little hurt can be massively overblown ad grow to something huge in the mind of a teenager who feels alone, boxed in, and like everyone who is suppose to help them is actually hurting them...

You may be correct but the bottom line is that I believe there are very few churches where the legalism is to such an extreme that kids growing up in the church would not see the positive things in relationship with Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The legalism may make it easier to walk away but it is no excuse the vast majority of the time. The truth is that many times these folks are intellectually lazy, don't have the word of God in their heart, etc.

I know the mom of one of these guys (or I did when in Bible College many years ago) and I also know the other boys grew up in Tennessee which is not exactly a bastion of ultra conservatism in Pentecost.

I think whining about the legalims as a reason to backslide is a convenient excuse. They had many alternate choices in living out Christianity.

Bottom line is that they chose carnalism, sin, and self. Did their sheltered life make it harder for them to adjust to public High School? I am sure it did but surely in all of those years of a sheltered life they learned something that should have helped them through that transition unless they did not want that help. Sounds to me like they gladly ditched everything they had been taught both good and bad to embrace sin and have not looked back.

[DividedThigh]

I'm trying... and it is a start, I just wish others could see it, ya know?

good, that is great and i understand, just dont let your enthusiasm to do right and zeal to stand up to the status quo be misread by people, a great thing to do is let your energy reach the hurting and help heal them, go out there and be a blessing and healer, others will see that and follow, god bless you, love you much, dt, :hypercoffee

[MrsMcD]

I think the "extra Biblical obstacles" hurt those in the church more...

look at it this way...

There are men on this board who argue that because of thier past in drug abuse and other things that they see a good reason for the rules and think they are good.

Those who come out of the world, those who were lost and dying and alone... They'll take on whatever obstacle we put in thier path if they get a little more peace than they had at the end...

But the kids in the church, the kids who supposedly "have no pain"... well, when those obstacles come up, they hurt... And, many times, those kids end up hurt more by the church than by anything else in the world...

and by the time they leave they've been hurt so bad that, even though we see it as little because we didn't get hurt hte same way as some of them did, that the obstacles are insurmountable because they became so big in thier minds....

a little hurt can be massively overblown ad grow to something huge in the mind of a teenager who feels alone, boxed in, and like everyone who is suppose to help them is actually hurting them...

I was raised stricter than strict but I'm not bitter nor do I let it impact my relationship with God. It's not his fault. We were raised so strict that we literally couldn't do anything but go to the mall. We couldn't go to the fair, play arcades games, skating rink (on Christian night), etc. I'm not talking about pants, makeup, whatever. The past isn't something I dwell on. My father, who is also a pastor, has apologized to his kids. He states that he was doing what he thought was best. Am I going to hold that against him? No way! I'm sure some pastors would change things if they could also. It's not an excuse. Get over the hurt and move on. Life is way to short to be bitter.

[redeemedcynic84]

Brother,

I hope you find healing.

Peace.

lol

yet ANOTHER copout...

I'm not hurt, I'm fine... I've been hurt, and I've ran in a small part because of that... But I've seen others hurt just as bad... and I see the pain in what people say...

these kids in this band, they're not saying this stuff out of anything but hurt and pain... and I think it is from both sides... Both that for a time they had so many rules that it took from them... and that now, when the rules are gone and they realized how wrong they were, they have nothing left to tell them what is right and what is wrong....

This isn't me talking about my hurt by and large... its me talking about the hurt I see in others...

[redeemedcynic84]

You may be correct but the bottom line is that I believe there are very few churches where the legalism is to such an extreme that kids growing up in the church would not see the positive things in relationship with Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The legalism may make it easier to walk away but it is no excuse the vast majority of the time. The truth is that many times these folks are intellectually lazy, don't have the word of God in their heart, etc.

I know the mom of one of these guys (or I did when in Bible College many years ago) and I also know the other boys grew up in Tennessee which is not exactly a bastion of ultra conservatism in Pentecost.

I think whining about the legalims as a reason to backslide is a convenient excuse. They had many alternate choices in living out Christianity.

Bottom line is that they chose carnalism, sin, and self. Did their sheltered life make it harder for them to adjust to public High School? I am sure it did but surely in all of those years of a sheltered life they learned something that should have helped them through that transition unless they did not want that help. Sounds to me like they gladly ditched everything they had been taught both good and bad to embrace sin and have not looked back.

I'm sure thier parent's recent divorce probably didn't help when they first showed up to high school...

and the "legalism" can hurt just as much in a church where the rules aren't mentioned and most don't follow them as it can in a church where a pastor knocks on your door and does a search of your house for things he preaches against....

[redeemedcynic84]

I was raised stricter than strict but I'm not bitter nor do I let it impact my relationship with God. It's not his fault. We were raised so strict that we literally couldn't do anything but go to the mall. We couldn't go to the fair, play arcades games, skating rink (on Christian night), etc. I'm not talking about pants, makeup, whatever. The past isn't something I dwell on. My father, who is also a pastor, has apologized to his kids. He states that he was doing what he thought was best. Am I going to hold that against him? No way! I'm sure some pastors would change things if they could also. It's not an excuse. Get over the hurt and move on. Life is way to short to be bitter.

not everyone can do that...

and the fact that it shouldn't get in the way of our relationship with God doesn't excuse us from blame for those that it did get in the way of thier relationship with God...

[LadyRev]

All of us will answer to God for wrong that we do, if indeed we are guilty and don't repent.

The thing is, I knew these boys and their family.

They were never "oppressed" by draconian pastors that I ever knew of.

Their dad was a nice guy, happy go lucky and a lot of fun.

And he was in no way a conservative or very strict.

I knew these boys and this family also.

I agree, their parents were both great people and alot of fun.

But in the eyes of these boys, their church environment in general was strict.

However, they didn't go down this road they are on now because of being "hurt" by the church. The church and its "strictness" didn't cause them to take this road.

They were greatly affected by their own "home" situation more than anything and ultimately they made their own decisions when they came of age.

They were always a close family. It appears to me that they still love their parents very much. Thus they choose to point their fingers of blame at the church, instead of at their parents who had the greatest affect of all on their lives. I've read some articles where they talk about their dad but they don't condemn him. Instead, they pick on the church. Even their group name is after their dad. Leon is his middle name.

Sorry redeemedcynic...the church is not to blame. It all starts at home.

[rrford]

Got to love those who always point to the "extremes" as the atypical example.

Nice try, but it doesn't wash.

I will never ceased to be amazed by the see-saw rhetoric here. One day the UPCI is Legalistic Tyrants the next it is Liberal Lacky's. Just depends on the thread flavor of the day and which side you want to bash.

[Coonskinner]

I knew these boys and this family also.

I agree, their parents were both great people and alot of fun.

But in the eyes of these boys, their church environment in general was strict.

However, they didn't go down this road they are on now because of being "hurt" by the church. The church and its "strictness" didn't cause them to take this road.

They were greatly affected by their own "home" situation more than anything and ultimately they made their own decisions when they came of age.

They were always a close family. It appears to me that they still love their parents very much. Thus they choose to point their fingers of blame at the church, instead of at their parents who had the greatest affect of all on their lives. I've read some articles where they talk about their dad but they don't condemn him. Instead, they pick on the church. Even their group name is after their dad. Leon is his middle name.

Sorry redeemedcynic...the church is not to blame. It all starts at home.

Bingo.

Good post, even if you are a Lady Man of God. ;)

[tbpew]

For the crybabies in the thread I've highlighted the second paragraph.

I stumbled on this article this morning simply because Google News Alerts sent it to my inbox. I've been monitoring the secular news for possible stories about the passing of the TV resolution.

As one news channel says ... "We report, you decide" ....

BTW, another story about a rock band boozing it up would not have piqued our interest.

congratulations, on your skillful dodge of the point us "crybabies" provided, all the while taking every opportunity to reinforce your rightness in the matter. You brought a thread title and a singular highlight from an article as today's lesson from the desk of Dan.

Isn't all this opinion sharing wonderful. It is a great day now that discussion boards enable such an immediate interactive quality. People may actually one day be accountable for the issues of their heart that they speak out to the huddled electronic masses.

[LadyRev]

Bingo.

Good post, even if you are a Lady Man of God. ;)

Thanks! I think! ;)

[DividedThigh]

I knew these boys and this family also.

I agree, their parents were both great people and alot of fun.

But in the eyes of these boys, their church environment in general was strict.

However, they didn't go down this road they are on now because of being "hurt" by the church. The church and its "strictness" didn't cause them to take this road.

They were greatly affected by their own "home" situation more than anything and ultimately they made their own decisions when they came of age.

They were always a close family. It appears to me that they still love their parents very much. Thus they choose to point their fingers of blame at the church, instead of at their parents who had the greatest affect of all on their lives. I've read some articles where they talk about their dad but they don't condemn him. Instead, they pick on the church. Even their group name is after their dad. Leon is his middle name.

Sorry redeemedcynic...the church is not to blame. It all starts at home.

good insight lady rev, we are all responsible for our decisions ultimately, dt:hypercoffee

[redeemedcynic84]

They were always a close family. It appears to me that they still love their parents very much. Thus they choose to point their fingers of blame at the church, instead of at their parents who had the greatest affect of all on their lives. I've read some articles where they talk about their dad but they don't condemn him. Instead, they pick on the church. Even their group name is after their dad. Leon is his middle name.

Sorry redeemedcynic...the church is not to blame. It all starts at home.

umm... you would have an argument there... and in this case it very well could be thier stuff with thier parents...

But there are many others who feel the same way they do, who fell as much as they did, and were hurt in similar ways...

Yes, thier parent's situation didn't help, but to absolve the church from blame isn't the correct response...

[Coonskinner]

Backsliders always blame the church, their pastor, saints, circumstances, etc.

Rarely do they blame themselves. And when on rare occasions they do put the blame where it belongs, they generally pray through.

[NLYP]

Its a sad story....sad as...Benny Hinn smoking Heroine, Paul Crouch in sex scandal, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Tammy Faye, Oral Roberts scandal, Without Walls Divorce, Jan Broke a nail, W V Grant wears a miracle ear piece, Peter Popoff is a "Miracle spring water "doorknob, Robert Tilton Farts too much....

Its called SIN...it hits all sides.....

[SDG]

congratulations, on your skillful dodge of the point us "crybabies" provided, all the while taking every opportunity to reinforce your rightness in the matter. You brought a thread title and a singular highlight from an article as today's lesson from the desk of Dan.

Isn't it great the discussion boards enable such an immediate interactive quality. People may actually one day be accountable for the issues of their heart that they speak out to the huddled electronic masses.

Why not comment on the article .... it's content? Or does your intelligence only extend to me ... if so ... I'll take it as a compliment that you're wasting neurons on me.

If you haven't noticed, Sport, we all have a common heritage ... that's what interests us ...

if you'd like this board to be a bunch of clones plugged into the BORG ... maybe you should post on the other thrilling Apostolic boards on the net.

Step off.

[CC1]

I knew these boys and this family also.

I agree, their parents were both great people and alot of fun.

But in the eyes of these boys, their church environment in general was strict.

However, they didn't go down this road they are on now because of being "hurt" by the church. The church and its "strictness" didn't cause them to take this road.

They were greatly affected by their own "home" situation more than anything and ultimately they made their own decisions when they came of age.
They were always a close family. It appears to me that they still love their parents very much. Thus they choose to point their fingers of blame at the church, instead of at their parents who had the greatest affect of all on their lives. I've read some articles where they talk about their dad but they don't condemn him. Instead, they pick on the church. Even their group name is after their dad. Leon is his middle name.

Sorry redeemedcynic...the church is not to blame. It all starts at home.

I think you are correct that the home life trumped all other influences and factors. I am sure the divorce caused them to question whether any of what they had been taught was real then carnality and Satan took it from there.

[redeemedcynic84]

Backsliders always blame the church, their pastor, saints, circumstances, etc.

Rarely do they blame themselves. And when on rare occasions they do put the blame where it belongs, they generally pray through.

oh come on...

is the blame ultimately thiers? Yes... but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't take some responsibility for it, too...

[LadyRev]

Yes, thier parent's situation didn't help, but to absolve the church from blame isn't the correct response...

Would you feel the same way if it were the Catholic church they attended as kids?

True, devout catholics do not marry outside the church, do not attend other church services (funerals and weddings are the exception), are required to give a percentage of their income to the church, are required to attend Mass once a week, are required to go to confession once a month or more, are required to address the priest as "father", are not allowed to divorce except by reason of fornication even if a spouse is being beat half to death, are not allowed to re-marry unless their spouse is deceased, are not allowed to use birth control, are required to leave an inheritance to the church, are required to do penance, are required to put their kids in catholic school or catechism classes, marriage is forbidden for nuns and priests, baptism according to their formula is required for membership, shall I continue?

Whats that about rules and regulations?

ALL CHURCHES HAVE THEM!

[Coonskinner]

oh come on...

is the blame ultimately thiers? Yes... but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't take some responsibility for it, too...


Show me the Scripture that tells us we have a right to blame others for our own spiritual demise.

[redeemedcynic84]

Would you feel the same way if it were the Catholic church they attended as kids?

True, devout catholics do not marry outside the church, do not attend other church services (funerals and weddings are the exception), are required to give a percentage of their income to the church, are required to attend Mass once a week, are required to go to confession once a month or more, are required to address the priest as "father", are not allowed to divorce except by reason of fornication even if a spouse is being beat half to death, are not allowed to re-marry unless their spouse is deceased, are not allowed to use birth control, are required to leave an inheritance to the church, are required to do penance, are required to put their kids in catholic school or catechism classes, marriage is forbidden for nuns and priests, baptism according to their formula is required for membership, shall I continue?

Whats that about rules and regulations?

ALL CHURCHES HAVE THEM!

yes, but the Catholic church doesn't actively preach against all other denominations... haven't since Vatican 2 (50 years or so)...

If you don't like the rules they have, go to a baptist church or a lutheran church and they are still ok with you...

if you go to a baptist church from a Pentecostal church, the Pentecostal church considers you backslidden and hellbound....

oh... and not only are those rules not nearly as invasive as the rules that we have... but most Catholic churches don't even think about actually preaching most of that...

[redeemedcynic84]

Show me the Scripture that tells us we have a right to blame others for our own spiritual demise.

how about the ones about not causing your brother to stumble??

and I didn't say they were right to blame us... The blame, ultimately falls on them... but that doesn't mean we didn't ever trip them up or kick them while they were down...

[Coonskinner]

how about the ones about not causing your brother to stumble??

and I didn't say they were right to blame us... The blame, ultimately falls on them... but that doesn't mean we didn't ever trip them up or kick them while they were down...


Speak for yourself.

I don't trip or kick people.

[tbpew]

'sport'
'step off'
do you rent a separate apartment for your ego?

man, you are a bonafide hoot.

Please, teacher Dan-o, never leave the boards that I post on, the contrast provides way too much clarity!

*per dan-o's strict command to tbpew* (becauase whatever Dan tells us to do, we better or he'll get mad

Jarred lets the reader know getting free from the Amish-like folks was like being able to come up for air

and

"We figured it out the other day," the bassist confides, "and the alcohol that's been consumed on this tour would probably fill eight or nine swimming pools



It seems like he was drowning before and in their freedom they are drowning again.
The irony with the word choices was not lost on this reader.

[NLYP]

I STILL SAY

Its a sad story....sad as...Benny Hinn smoking Heroine, Paul Crouch in sex scandal, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Tammy Faye, Oral Roberts scandal, Without Walls Divorce, Jan Broke a nail, W V Grant wears a miracle ear piece, Peter Popoff is a "Miracle spring water "doorknob, Robert Tilton Farts too much....

Its called SIN...it hits all sides.....

[tbpew]

I STILL SAY

Its a sad story....sad as...Benny Hinn smoking Heroine, Paul Crouch in sex scandal, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Tammy Faye, Oral Roberts scandal, Without Walls Divorce, Jan Broke a nail, W V Grant wears a miracle ear piece, Peter Popoff is a "Miracle spring water "doorknob, Robert Tilton Farts too much....

Its called SIN...it hits all sides.....

but were all those folks reacting to their freedom from being a part of something so strict is was almost Amish?

[LadyRev]

yes, but the Catholic church doesn't actively preach against all other denominations... haven't since Vatican 2 (50 years or so)...

If you don't like the rules they have, go to a baptist church or a lutheran church and they are still ok with you...

if you go to a baptist church from a Pentecostal church, the Pentecostal church considers you backslidden and hellbound....

oh... and not only are those rules not nearly as invasive as the rules that we have... but most Catholic churches don't even think about actually preaching most of that...

Ah I see the mighty RCC is doing a good job with the snow job.

As a former catholic with a still very devout RC father, I can tell you that they have you fooled.

The catholic church just recently publically stated that anyone that does not embrace "her" (the RCC) will be eternally damned. I wish I could find the article for you.

Make no mistake about "her" silence in the pulpit. She has an agenda and the rules have not changed much. The plan is to make everyone comfortable and cozy and then drop the bombshells.

I only named a few of "her" rules.

When you become catholic, you become a possession of the church. When you leave, you are a heretic, a black sheep...which is what I am called by my own father. According to my father and his priest, I will be damned forever unless I return to the RCC.

Now tell me again...what was that about invasive rules? What was that about considering people hellbound?

[CC1]

I STILL SAY

Its a sad story....sad as...Benny Hinn smoking Heroine, Paul Crouch in sex scandal, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Tammy Faye, Oral Roberts scandal, Without Walls Divorce, Jan Broke a nail, W V Grant wears a miracle ear piece, Peter Popoff is a "Miracle spring water "doorknob, Robert Tilton Farts too much....

Its called SIN...it hits all sides.....


LOL!!!! Yup. Our fallen nature is something all battle. Human failure knows no stripe of religious persuasion.

Which is one more reason I know that a laundry list of corporate legalism trying to enforce cookie cutter "speratism" is not the answer.

Just as many conservative Pentecostal preachers who would not dream of wearing a short sleeve church or watching a TV fall into adultery as those who live a less legalistic lifestyle.

The truth is that all fail when their relationship with God falters, usually something that happens in private long before the resulting sin becomes public.

The big time preachers are usually undone by their own success and "stardom" while many whose names are never known outside their hometowns stumble and fall for other reasons.

[LadyRev]

redeemedcynic,

Heres some info you may find interesting...

I am copying and pasting only a portion and then including the link for more info. Notice the question asked is actually at the bottom.

Obedience to Rome's Rules is Essential to Salvation

If you don't believe this, ask any Catholic what will happen to them if they deliberately miss mass on a Sunday or 'holy day of obligation.' Ask them what will happen to them if they challenge the Pope's authority, or if they deliberately eat meat during times it is forbidden, or if they refuse to fast the required length of time before taking communion. Ask any Catholic where they will end up if they practice birth control, or get divorced and remarried! These and a host of other 'no-no's' automatically consign you to a place in Hell according to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. In brief, the Roman Catholic person has a lengthy checklist of church rules to obey-or else!

QUESTION: Does the Bible condemn to hell anyone who fails to attend church, go to the sacrament of penance (sic., confession), eat Jesus in the Eucharist, or who eats meat on Fridays, uses birth control or gets divorced and remarried?

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/romewatch/page3.html

[StillStanding]

Unfortunately, when these boys crash (and they will!) their new-found life paradigm will be revealed for what it is, a facade! One day these boys will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord!

[SDG]

Unfortunately, when these boys crash (and they will!) their new-found life paradigm will be revealed for what it is, a facade! One day these boys will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord!

Yes they will ... I pray they are able to do this in this life.

[redeemedcynic84]

Ah I see the mighty RCC is doing a good job with the snow job.

As a former catholic with a still very devout RC father, I can tell you that they have you fooled.

The catholic church just recently publically stated that anyone that does not embrace "her" (the RCC) will be eternally damned. I wish I could find the article for you.

Make no mistake about "her" silence in the pulpit. She has an agenda and the rules have not changed much. The plan is to make everyone comfortable and cozy and then drop the bombshells.

I only named a few of "her" rules.

When you become catholic, you become a possession of the church. When you leave, you are a heretic, a black sheep...which is what I am called by my own father. According to my father and his priest, I will be damned forever unless I return to the RCC.

Now tell me again...what was that about invasive rules? What was that about considering people hellbound?

Do I really need to go and find the exact passages in the Catechism that says that not only are other Chrisitan groups going to make it to heaven, but Muslims will, as well???

Because they are there, I've seen them, and they are real...

And I know the Catholic church said that stuff, they're just a bastion disagreeing with themselves... But that doesn't change that they do say that everyone else is going to heaven, too!!

[redeemedcynic84]

redeemedcynic,

Heres some info you may find interesting...

I am copying and pasting only a portion and then including the link for more info. Notice the question asked is actually at the bottom.

Obedience to Rome's Rules is Essential to Salvation

If you don't believe this, ask any Catholic what will happen to them if they deliberately miss mass on a Sunday or 'holy day of obligation.' Ask them what will happen to them if they challenge the Pope's authority, or if they deliberately eat meat during times it is forbidden, or if they refuse to fast the required length of time before taking communion. Ask any Catholic where they will end up if they practice birth control, or get divorced and remarried! These and a host of other 'no-no's' automatically consign you to a place in Hell according to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. In brief, the Roman Catholic person has a lengthy checklist of church rules to obey-or else!

QUESTION: Does the Bible condemn to hell anyone who fails to attend church, go to the sacrament of penance (sic., confession), eat Jesus in the Eucharist, or who eats meat on Fridays, uses birth control or gets divorced and remarried?

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/romewatch/page3.html

RCC's catechism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an angelfire website set up by some random person somewhere on earth....

[Timmy]

Do I really need to go and find the exact passages in the Catechism that says that not only are other Chrisitan groups going to make it to heaven, but Muslims will, as well???

Because they are there, I've seen them, and they are real...

And I know the Catholic church said that stuff, they're just a bastion disagreeing with themselves... But that doesn't change that they do say that everyone else is going to heaven, too!!

Ironic comment of the day! :heeheehee

[philjones]

Backsliders always blame the church, their pastor, saints, circumstances, etc.

Rarely do they blame themselves. And when on rare occasions they do put the blame where it belongs, they generally pray through.

Truer words have seldom if ever been spoken..

I can testify that when I accepted responsibility for my sin and sought the solace of my savior, i prayed through! It has now been 8.5 years and my relationship with Jesus has never been more dear!

[DividedThigh]

Truer words have seldom if ever been spoken..

I can testify that when I accepted responsibility for my sin and sought the solace of my savior, i prayed through! It has now been 8.5 years and my relationship with Jesus has never been more dear!

amen bro phil, that is great to hear, dt:hypercoffee

[redeemedcynic84]

amen bro phil, that is great to hear, dt:hypercoffee

yes, it was great to hear...

it just... is kinda irrelevant to the conversation at hand....

just because one will feel better if they turn it over to Jesus doesn't mean that others aren't responsible for hurting them still....

[DividedThigh]

yes, it was great to hear...

it just... is kinda irrelevant to the conversation at hand....

just because one will feel better if they turn it over to Jesus doesn't mean that others aren't responsible for hurting them still....

it may be to you, but it is the path all of us must find to get in touch with Jesus and develop the relationship he wants with us my brother, dt

[Ferd]

Backsliders always blame the church, their pastor, saints, circumstances, etc.

Rarely do they blame themselves. And when on rare occasions they do put the blame where it belongs, they generally pray through.

We were talking about this last week in sunday school. The number one reason people leave the church is "somebody else"

They got hurt by someone
Someone disappointed them
Someone who was supposed to be perfect made a mistake
Someone didnt speak to them.


It is always someone else. Sad.

[LadyRev]

RCC's catechism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an angelfire website set up by some random person somewhere on earth....


Kings of Leon love the life of rock
October 4, 2007

BY BEN EDMONDS
FREE PRESS SPECIAL WRITER

An article presented by worldly media that loves to promote anything "anti-christian"......presented by an author we know nothing about.

Two can play the "disqualify your reference" game. ;)


In your eagerness to lay blame at the door of the UPCI, you are missing my point entirely.

POINT IS...

ALL CHURCHES HAVE RULES!

And second point, it doesn't matter a hill of beans what site contains RCC information or who the author was. Whether it be angelfire or a porn site. Whether it be an atheist or a disgruntled former catholic.

POINT IS...

I PERSONALLY KNOW THE INFORMATION ON THE ANGELFIRE WEBSITE TO BE FACT!

Did you miss where I said I'm a "former" Roman Catholic? I went to Catholic school...raised in a catholic home. DUH! :killinme

ALL CHURCHES HAVE RULES!

[aegsm76]

You would have been better off picking a situation where so many did not know this family.
As one who grew up around them, believe me it was not due to the pentecostal amish, that they are this way.
It was due to a lack of consistency by several people in their lives.
There was a form of rebellion inparted to them at an early age, and it found fertile soil.
And they did not just run with UPCI churches, either...

[LadyRev]

Now that we've established that ALL CHURCHES HAVE RULES...

Why don't you answer my original question?

If these boys had been raised Roman Catholic and their parents were devout catholics (meaning they abided by the rules!) would you blame the Roman Catholic church for the boys current condition?

Answer please.

[Coonskinner]

You would have been better off picking a situation where so many did not know this family.
As one who grew up around them, believe me it was not due to the pentecostal amish, that they are this way.
It was due to a lack of consistency by several people in their lives.
There was a form of rebellion inparted to them at an early age, and it found fertile soil.
And they did not just run with UPCI churches, either...


Exactly.

[LadyRev]

You would have been better off picking a situation where so many did not know this family.
As one who grew up around them, believe me it was not due to the pentecostal amish, that they are this way.
It was due to a lack of consistency by several people in their lives.
There was a form of rebellion inparted to them at an early age, and it found fertile soil.
And they did not just run with UPCI churches, either...

AMEN!

Do I know you? LOL!

[philjones]

it may be to you, but it is the path all of us must find to get in touch with Jesus and develop the relationship he wants with us my brother, dt

DT,

i have RC on ignore so I seldom see what he posts. thank the Lord for small favors...:killinme:killinme J/K RC

Either way, I was just as guilty of blaming others for my backsliding. Did I get treated wrong? At the time i thought i did. But the reality was that I made a mistake and forced men into a position of action they probably would have preferred to never take. Nevertheless, I spent 18 years blaming them for my a disease that I had suffered from long before they even entered the picture.... Lackofconsistentconsecrationitis...

It was not until I got honest with myself and confessed that it was my mistake and my inconsistency that led me to the sinful lifestyle that almost destroyed me that I was made whole. Had I not found my way back to God, NO ONE would have been to blame but Phil Jones... not the men, not others in my church, not my friends, not even my parents... it was my mistake and my decision to walk away from God. It is a cop out to blame others for your not embracing the only God of grace and mercy and the free gift of his salvation!

The Followill boys made their own choices and they will pay the price those choices demand. Like others have said, i hope they return to God so they do not face the consequences of their actions alone.

[Praxeas]

We need to give people a healthy balanced gospel, not a strict list of rules and don'ts.

BTW Toni Braxton seems to have a similar story

[BrotherEastman]

they aren't decieved by the devil, they were killed by us...

The devil didn't have to do anything... Our rules were so far from where they should have been, regulated against so many things that didn't need to be, that when they got "freedom from them" and because they didn't have a relationship wtih Christ (because all that they were taught was following the rules, like many young people), that they went "hey, this isn't bad" and just kept pushing it...

the Devil didn't have to do anything with these boys, he let us take them so far from the world that when they were released on the world the slingshot of where we took them put them so far out there that they might never get back...
You think it was the UPCI, or was it the divorced parents?

[philjones]

We need to give people a healthy balanced gospel, not a strict list of rules and don'ts.

BTW Toni Braxton seems to have a similar story

I think most here would agree with your first statement. If that is Toni's story truth is that she is still responsible for the mistakes she has made.

[BrotherEastman]

ok young man, you can sit around the rest of your life and blame the church, but whether you like it or not they are deceived and on the wrong path, and it doestn matter who you blame it is still true, i agree with much of what you said, but what i said is accurate, because no matter how they go into the mess they are in now, it is all the same, to bad and very sad, dt:hypercoffee
Its all about the blame game don't ya know? Poor widdle backslider backslid because of the church, nevermind the fact that people will be people and turn from God like they have throughout history.

[BrotherEastman]

I'm not saying they're not in a mess...

I'm saying thier blood (and the blood of those souls who can't bring themselves to find God because of the pain and hurt we've caused them because of our rules) is on our hands.... its our fault...
rules really hurt people? WOW!

[BrotherEastman]

well while i agree it is on somebody, that somebody isnt me, i didnt do that to my own kids or anybody else, i spent 4 of my first years in ministry doing nothing but telling kids they were loved by god and he wanted to have a relationship with them, then i spent 10 years as a pastor preaching and teaching the same, i dont have time to blame the church or anybody but myself for any messes in my life now, and i dont think any of us do, I believe it is our responsibility to make things good with god and move on, my humble opinion, dt:hypercoffee
Great post.

[BrotherEastman]

It was unrestrained carnality and love of the world.

Believe me, their dad was no hard core conservative.

I knew him well, and the boys too.

The hypocrisy they saw probably contributed more to their demise than anything else.

It sounds cool to talk about what a victim you were...all part of the mystique.
We're all victims of the church though coon.

[BrotherEastman]

it is on us for allowing those horrible things to be done by people we call brothers...

by allowing our churches to, by and large, become more about rules and "looking the part" than about a relationship with Christ...

no, it isn't your fault personally...

but, as a corporate body, as a group, as the body of Christ, it is all of our fault for allowing this to continue and never standing up and saying "this is HURTING people!!"
I love the blame game.

[BrotherEastman]

good admonition coonskinner, i know i am one of them, yet i found jesus for myself and overcame it all, that is the key, coming to grips with life, and embracing jesus for yourself, god bless you bro,dt:hypercoffee
I don't glory or revel in the fact that I too at one point was backslid. I was backslid not because of the rules, but because of my flesh wanting to be carnal.

[BrotherEastman]

lol

its funny... they backslide, say how our rules make us almost amish (and they do) and all you can do is rip on thier dad for not ENFORCING THE RULES ENOUGH!!

good job pointing the blame on them instead of looking int he mirror and figureing out if you can learn anything from it...
good job on putting the blame on the church.

[bdlooney]

I can't make anyone go to heaven and I can't make anyone go to hell. I can't force people to live for God and I can't force them not to live for God.

If I were to backslide (God forbid) it would be because of a decision I made. A decision to think those thoughts, or allow myself to feel those feelings. Because a person will backslide in their hearts long before they ever walk out of the doors.

[BrotherEastman]

umm....

God is there for everyone, God doesn't seperate himself from anyone...

we seperate ourselves from him...

So silly things like that can (and do) seperate people from God...
Key words?

[Praxeas]

I think most here would agree with your first statement. If that is Toni's story truth is that she is still responsible for the mistakes she has made.
OF course, but it's still similar. She was raised in a black Apostolic church. Her father was very strict. They were never allowed to watch TV. So they snuck out to the neighbors and watched Soul Train.

[Praxeas]

rules really hurt people? WOW!
Too many Rules can and do hurt some people. Some people perhaps need a certain amount of structured control and hands on babying. Others don't and feel stiffled and constricted by it.

Some at first might even need that much structure and control, but later as they grow need more freedom to walk on their own and trust in God more and not in man made ruled

[Praxeas]

Key words?
Lock letters?

[BrotherEastman]

another copout...

see, the church gets lazy when they stop being persecuted.. They start worrying about making stupid rules and getting in people's ways... And then the church starts persecuting themselves, and that hurts in a whole different (and many times worse) way...

dying to your faith sounds easy compared to not being able to bring yourself to go to church because it hurts to walk in the door....
All the while you persecute the UPC because of its "rules"? Talk about double standards.

[BrotherEastman]

Got to love those who always point to the "extremes" as the atypical example.

Nice try, but it doesn't wash.

I will never ceased to be amazed by the see-saw rhetoric here. One day the UPCI is Legalistic Tyrants the next it is Liberal Lacky's. Just depends on the thread flavor of the day and which side you want to bash.
Its just one of Dans ways of trying to help tear down the UPC, as if the T.V. resolution wasn't enough to satisfy his ongoing onslaught of the church.

[BrotherEastman]

Why not comment on the article .... it's content? Or does your intelligence only extend to me ... if so ... I'll take it as a compliment that you're wasting neurons on me.

If you haven't noticed, Sport, we all have a common heritage ... that's what interests us ...

if you'd like this board to be a bunch of clones plugged into the BORG ... maybe you should post on the other thrilling Apostolic boards on the net.

Step off.
tsk tsk, you display things like this and not expect to get someone roused? Danny......I'm disappointed.

[BrotherEastman]

oh come on...

is the blame ultimately thiers? Yes... but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't take some responsibility for it, too...
If you wanna take the responsability for thier actions, then by all means do so.

[Trouvere]

The shame is the relationship with Jesus was not there.They had religon but not Jesus.

[BrotherEastman]

Kings of Leon love the life of rock
October 4, 2007

BY BEN EDMONDS
FREE PRESS SPECIAL WRITER

An article presented by worldly media that loves to promote anything "anti-christian"......presented by an author we know nothing about.

Two can play the "disqualify your reference" game. ;)


In your eagerness to lay blame at the door of the UPCI, you are missing my point entirely.

POINT IS...

ALL CHURCHES HAVE RULES!

And second point, it doesn't matter a hill of beans what site contains RCC information or who the author was. Whether it be angelfire or a porn site. Whether it be an atheist or a disgruntled former catholic.

POINT IS...

I PERSONALLY KNOW THE INFORMATION ON THE ANGELFIRE WEBSITE TO BE FACT!

Did you miss where I said I'm a "former" Roman Catholic? I went to Catholic school...raised in a catholic home. DUH! :killinme

ALL CHURCHES HAVE RULES!
Gasp! they do?

[BrotherEastman]

Too many Rules can and do hurt some people. Some people perhaps need a certain amount of structured control and hands on babying. Others don't and feel stiffled and constricted by it.

Some at first might even need that much structure and control, but later as they grow need more freedom to walk on their own and trust in God more and not in man made ruled
I agree that one must mature that they do not need to be governed by rules, but rules in and of themselves are not gonna send one to hell.

[LadyRev]

Gasp! they do?

Yeah, they really do. :D

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

LadyRev

Your post was almost un-ruly

bwa haha hahaha

I crack me up.

:killinme









I am in my own world, but it is OK, they ALL know me here.

[LadyRev]

LadyRev

Your post was almost un-ruly

bwa haha hahaha

I crack me up.

:killinme









I am in my own world, but it is OK, they ALL know me here.

Its ok...I understand. Really I do. :killinme

[redeemedcynic84]

it may be to you, but it is the path all of us must find to get in touch with Jesus and develop the relationship he wants with us my brother, dt

but the issue here isn't what is the solution to someone not being right with God...

the issue here is what are the stumblingblocks in thier way and how many of them are our fault??

[redeemedcynic84]

We were talking about this last week in sunday school. The number one reason people leave the church is "somebody else"

They got hurt by someone
Someone disappointed them
Someone who was supposed to be perfect made a mistake
Someone didnt speak to them.


It is always someone else. Sad.

the Bible talks about this, but it does it opposite of how we talk about it...

We condemn those who leave and say its sad they left...

But the Bible warns us not to be the thing that causes them to stumble...

[redeemedcynic84]

Kings of Leon love the life of rock
October 4, 2007

BY BEN EDMONDS
FREE PRESS SPECIAL WRITER

An article presented by worldly media that loves to promote anything "anti-christian"......presented by an author we know nothing about.

Two can play the "disqualify your reference" game. ;)


In your eagerness to lay blame at the door of the UPCI, you are missing my point entirely.

POINT IS...

ALL CHURCHES HAVE RULES!

And second point, it doesn't matter a hill of beans what site contains RCC information or who the author was. Whether it be angelfire or a porn site. Whether it be an atheist or a disgruntled former catholic.

POINT IS...

I PERSONALLY KNOW THE INFORMATION ON THE ANGELFIRE WEBSITE TO BE FACT!

Did you miss where I said I'm a "former" Roman Catholic? I went to Catholic school...raised in a catholic home. DUH! :killinme

ALL CHURCHES HAVE RULES!

all of that is really nice... but any Roman Catholic priest (even the pope) who says that you must be Catholic to be saved is wrong because the Catechism (which is basically scripture) says different...

I'm sorry they lied to you and that they say things that are incorrect in the media, doesn't change anything...

and, yes, all churches have "rules", its just that most churches rules don't make them live like its still 1945...

[redeemedcynic84]

You would have been better off picking a situation where so many did not know this family.
As one who grew up around them, believe me it was not due to the pentecostal amish, that they are this way.
It was due to a lack of consistency by several people in their lives.
There was a form of rebellion inparted to them at an early age, and it found fertile soil.
And they did not just run with UPCI churches, either...

my point only has marginally anything to do with them...

because I've come across people with the same bad attitudes who didn't have a "lack of consistancy" in thier lives and didn't have parents who got divorced or any of that...

and they have the same issues, the same hurts, the same things blocking them from giving God a chance to come back in thier lives...

Yes, this band might not be fallen because of the rules, but that doesn't change that people do fall because of them, that people are hindered because of them, and that that is wrong...

[redeemedcynic84]

Now that we've established that ALL CHURCHES HAVE RULES...

Why don't you answer my original question?

If these boys had been raised Roman Catholic and their parents were devout catholics (meaning they abided by the rules!) would you blame the Roman Catholic church for the boys current condition?

Answer please.

what exactly are they going to say?

IF they say "my priests raped me", yeah, I'd blame the Catholic church for allowing that to happen...

if it was "Catholicism is archaic", no I wouldn't...

I just can't find any reason in my mind that they could say something similar to what they said about the UPCI and thier specific complaint about us that you could say they could say about Catholicism... so your point is moot...

[redeemedcynic84]

You think it was the UPCI, or was it the divorced parents?

in thier case it was probably more to do with the divorced parents...

The problem is that there are others who have similar issues with the UPCI who don't have divorced parents...

[redeemedcynic84]

good job on putting the blame on the church.

you don't actually read the posts you reply to, do you?

I said multiple times that ultimately the blame is on them...

But that doesn't mean we weren't a stumblingblock and the Bible warns us not to be stumblingblocks...

[redeemedcynic84]

All the while you persecute the UPC because of its "rules"? Talk about double standards.

you realize its impossible to persecute something you are a part of, right???

thanks for playing, though

[redeemedcynic84]

The shame is the relationship with Jesus was not there.They had religon but not Jesus.

and just as much a shame is that people are so busy condemning them for falling that they refuse to look at the situation and see that maybe there are things we do in our own churches that, although not ultimately responsible for thier fall, sure didn't help them...

[redeemedcynic84]

I agree that one must mature that they do not need to be governed by rules, but rules in and of themselves are not gonna send one to hell.

but rules can be such a stumblingblock to one that they fall away...

[LadyRev]

I'm sorry they lied to you and that they say things that are incorrect in the media, doesn't change anything...

"They" did not lie to me nor did the media.

The RCC has always believed that anyone not within her ranks and abiding by her rules is hellbound. They don't broadcast this belief as much as they used to but that didn't change their beliefs.

I challenge you to go to a catholic priest and ask him if you can be saved outside the RCC. Let me know what answer you get.

and, yes, all churches have "rules", its just that most churches rules don't make them live like its still 1945...

Forbidding the use of birth control, forbidding divorce and remarriage, forbidding marriage outside the church, etc. etc. etc....these rules and more don't sound OLD and outdated to you?

Get for real.

[CC1]

To top it all off they really aren't very good either! I watched them on one of the late night shows a few months ago (I think it was Letterman) and it was typical grunge rock type stuff without much talent evident. Perhaps they have talent but I didn't see much of it on display.

[Praxeas]

"They" did not lie to me nor did the media.

The RCC has always believed that anyone not within her ranks and abiding by her rules is hellbound. They don't broadcast this belief as much as they used to but that didn't change their beliefs.

I challenge you to go to a catholic priest and ask him if you can be saved outside the RCC. Let me know what answer you get.



Forbidding the use of birth control, forbidding divorce and remarriage, forbidding marriage outside the church, etc. etc. etc....these rules and more don't sound OLD and outdated to you?

Get for real.
Which makes what some UPCers believe all the more dangerously papal like

[HeavenlyOne]

yes, but the Catholic church doesn't actively preach against all other denominations... haven't since Vatican 2 (50 years or so)...

If you don't like the rules they have, go to a baptist church or a lutheran church and they are still ok with you...

if you go to a baptist church from a Pentecostal church, the Pentecostal church considers you backslidden and hellbound....

oh... and not only are those rules not nearly as invasive as the rules that we have... but most Catholic churches don't even think about actually preaching most of that...

Uh.....no, they aren't ok with that. They consider you unsaved. In fact, if you are Catholic married to a non-Catholic, they won't recognize you being married in the eyes of God unless your spouse converts.

[HeavenlyOne]

Do I really need to go and find the exact passages in the Catechism that says that not only are other Chrisitan groups going to make it to heaven, but Muslims will, as well???

Because they are there, I've seen them, and they are real...

And I know the Catholic church said that stuff, they're just a bastion disagreeing with themselves... But that doesn't change that they do say that everyone else is going to heaven, too!!

Yes, you do.

[HeavenlyOne]

RCC's catechism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an angelfire website set up by some random person somewhere on earth....

And your quotes are just something you are saying without proof to back you up other than 'do I have to go look for proof?'

[LadyRev]

what exactly are they going to say?

IF they say "my priests raped me", yeah, I'd blame the Catholic church for allowing that to happen...

if it was "Catholicism is archaic", no I wouldn't...

I just can't find any reason in my mind that they could say something similar to what they said about the UPCI and thier specific complaint about us that you could say they could say about Catholicism... so your point is moot...

You still haven't answered my question.

These boys easily could have said they were brought up in a strict catholic home, as I was.

They could have complained that they made to attend catholic school verses public school and were forced to go to confession and attend Mass and were told they couldn't date outside their church cause they were only supposed to date someone they could possibly marry...which must be someone within the RCC. They could complain that they couldn't eat meat on fridays several months out of every year. They could complain about having to do penance. On and on it goes. The list of rules they could complain about.

Now...I want YOU to answer my question.

If these boys had been raised in the RCC and had complained about the RCC, and the article that Dan posted reflected these complaints...

WOULD YOU LAY BLAME FOR THE CONDITION OF THESE BOYS AT THE DOOR OF THE RCC DUE TO ITS RULES?

I don't think you want to answer this because you and everyone else knows where I'm going with this. :killinme

My point is not moot. :D

["GL"]

Yes, you do.
Right on!

:D

[redeemedcynic84]

"They" did not lie to me nor did the media.

The RCC has always believed that anyone not within her ranks and abiding by her rules is hellbound. They don't broadcast this belief as much as they used to but that didn't change their beliefs.

I challenge you to go to a catholic priest and ask him if you can be saved outside the RCC. Let me know what answer you get.



Forbidding the use of birth control, forbidding divorce and remarriage, forbidding marriage outside the church, etc. etc. etc....these rules and more don't sound OLD and outdated to you?

Get for real.

that's the thing, though, if the priest says "no", he's wrong...

I know how Roman Catholic dogma and councils and stuff work... It doesn't matter what priests say now... Unless the pope sits on his chair with his hat on and declares it or there is a council that declares it, the priest is wrong for condemning ohter Christians or Muslims to hell...

Catechism disagrees, Vatican 2 disagrees, etc... those have precedence over anything anyone says now (except the pope on his chair with his hat)...

and I know Catholics who married outside the church and they were ok with it... who use birth control... who have been divorced and remarried...

The things you cite are NOT worldwide issues in the CAtholic church, they are localized to certain areas/places... However there is not one church in the UPCI that doesn't preach against women's pants.... That is the difference here, really...

[redeemedcynic84]

Uh.....no, they aren't ok with that. They consider you unsaved. In fact, if you are Catholic married to a non-Catholic, they won't recognize you being married in the eyes of God unless your spouse converts.

again, a specific church might say that...

but Vatican 2 and the Catechism and other Catholic Dogma/Papal declarations disagree with those positions...

[redeemedcynic84]

Yes, you do.

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews 'belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ,'[328] 'for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.'[329]
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]
843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.'"

Muslims and other non-Christians are saved according to the catechism...

[tbpew]

again, a specific church might say that...

but Vatican 2 and the Catechism and other Catholic Dogma/Papal declarations disagree with those positions...


yeah Vatican 2 ROCKS!


hey everybody, lets VOTE Mary co-redeemer and co-saviour!

All I favor say "madonna".

[redeemedcynic84]

You still haven't answered my question.

These boys easily could have said they were brought up in a strict catholic home, as I was.

They could have complained that they made to attend catholic school verses public school and were forced to go to confession and attend Mass and were told they couldn't date outside their church cause they were only supposed to date someone they could possibly marry...which must be someone within the RCC. They could complain that they couldn't eat meat on fridays several months out of every year. They could complain about having to do penance. On and on it goes. The list of rules they could complain about.

Now...I want YOU to answer my question.

If these boys had been raised in the RCC and had complained about the RCC, and the article that Dan posted reflected these complaints...

WOULD YOU LAY BLAME FOR THE CONDITION OF THESE BOYS AT THE DOOR OF THE RCC DUE TO ITS RULES?

I don't think you want to answer this because you and everyone else knows where I'm going with this. :killinme

My point is not moot. :D

and none of those complaints would be anything like the complaint they made about the UPC... thus the situation is completely different and not comparable...

that is why your point is moot... it has no relevance to the situation....

[redeemedcynic84]

yeah Vatican 2 ROCKS!


hey everybody, lets VOTE Mary co-redeemer and co-saviour!

All I favor say "mother worship".

that wasn't Vatican 2... that was in the 1800s...

Vatican 2 was them having the priest face the laity during mass, use the common language of the area during mass, and basically taking hte church into the 20th century and making it less archaic...

I think they became more accepting of non-Catholic Christians as part of Vatican 2, also....

[HeavenlyOne]

Right on!

:D

He still hasn't posted that proof, and didn't address my post telling him he should!

[redeemedcynic84]

He still hasn't posted that proof, and didn't address my post telling him he should!

actually I did like 6 posts before this post...

[HeavenlyOne]

that's the thing, though, if the priest says "no", he's wrong...

I know how Roman Catholic dogma and councils and stuff work... It doesn't matter what priests say now... Unless the pope sits on his chair with his hat on and declares it or there is a council that declares it, the priest is wrong for condemning ohter Christians or Muslims to hell...

Catechism disagrees, Vatican 2 disagrees, etc... those have precedence over anything anyone says now (except the pope on his chair with his hat)...

and I know Catholics who married outside the church and they were ok with it... who use birth control... who have been divorced and remarried...

The things you cite are NOT worldwide issues in the CAtholic church, they are localized to certain areas/places... However there is not one church in the UPCI that doesn't preach against women's pants.... That is the difference here, really...

ROFL! You really have no idea what you are talking about. How do you know the church was 'ok with it'? Because they still were able to attend there?

For years, my dad and his Catholic wife were considered to be living in sin. Sure, they could attend church and such, but the church wouldn't recognize them as a married couple, even though my father converted to Catholicism. Why? Because he'd been married before. My mom signed a paper for him that 'annulled' their marriage so they could get benefits from the RCC.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Weren't you raised Pentecostal?

[HeavenlyOne]

again, a specific church might say that...

but Vatican 2 and the Catechism and other Catholic Dogma/Papal declarations disagree with those positions...

I'm still waiting for proof. Surely you can find proof online and post it here.

[tbpew]

*tbpew's definition of eternity*

H.O. proving a point with redeemedcynic

[HeavenlyOne]

Muslims and other non-Christians are saved according to the catechism...

That's how you interpret what they are saying??? ROFL! It says NOTHING even my implication that it considers other religions to be saving people!

Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.'

This DOES NOT say nor imply that those people are saved as the RCC sees salvation.

Even the UPCI recognizes the good in other religions without saying they are saved people.

[HeavenlyOne]

and none of those complaints would be anything like the complaint they made about the UPC... thus the situation is completely different and not comparable...

that is why your point is moot... it has no relevance to the situation....

Still can't answer, huh?

So, exactly what are those boys complaining about that isn't relevant?

[redeemedcynic84]

ROFL! You really have no idea what you are talking about. How do you know the church was 'ok with it'? Because they still were able to attend there?

For years, my dad and his Catholic wife were considered to be living in sin. Sure, they could attend church and such, but the church wouldn't recognize them as a married couple, even though my father converted to Catholicism. Why? Because he'd been married before. My mom signed a paper for him that 'annulled' their marriage so they could get benefits from the RCC.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Weren't you raised Pentecostal?

yes, I was raised Pentecostal...

but you are wrong...

1634 Difference of confession between the spouses does not constitute an insurmountable obstacle for marriage, when they succeed in placing in common what they have received from their respective communities, and learn from each other the way in which each lives in fidelity to Christ. But the difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. The spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home. Disparity of cult can further aggravate these difficulties. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children. The temptation to religious indifference can then arise.

1635 According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority.135 In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage.136 This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage; and furthermore that the Catholic party confirms the obligations, which have been made known to the non-Catholic party, of preserving his or her own faith and ensuring the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.137

1636 Through ecumenical dialogue Christian communities in many regions have been able to put into effect a common pastoral practice for mixed marriages. Its task is to help such couples live out their particular situation in the light of faith, overcome the tensions between the couple's obligations to each other and towards their ecclesial communities, and encourage the flowering of what is common to them in faith and respect for what separates them.

hmm... not one word forbidding it... in fact, it seems the opposite is true, that this would be giving permission, but warning of hardships that come along with it....

(yes, those are from the catechism)

[HeavenlyOne]

actually I did like 6 posts before this post...

4.......but forgive me for being behind.

However, that wasn't proof of what you claimed. Show me where they claim others are SAVED.

[redeemedcynic84]

I'm still waiting for proof. Surely you can find proof online and post it here.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=263243&postcount=136

that is post 136, where I quoted 5 "verses" of the catechism... (note: "verse" isn't the right word, I don't think, but I don't remember what the right word is at the moment, so it works)

in those verses, Muslims and "anyone serching among the shadows and images for God" are stated to be saved....

[HeavenlyOne]

*tbpew's definition of eternity*

H.O. proving a point with redeemedcynic

More like 'HO waiting for proof to be posted of what RC is claiming to be true'.

[redeemedcynic84]

That's how you interpret what they are saying??? ROFL! It says NOTHING even my implication that it considers other religions to be saving people!



This DOES NOT say nor imply that those people are saved as the RCC sees salvation.

Even the UPCI recognizes the good in other religions without saying they are saved people.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

that's the most telling one... "the plan of salvation also includes... Muslims"

[redeemedcynic84]

Still can't answer, huh?

So, exactly what are those boys complaining about that isn't relevant?

are you unable to comprehend what you read???

because you aren't even responding to my posts, your just saying random stuff that doesn't even make sense...

what they said wasn't irrelevant... the comparison to if they complained about catholicism is irrelevant...

[HeavenlyOne]

yes, I was raised Pentecostal...

but you are wrong...



hmm... not one word forbidding it... in fact, it seems the opposite is true, that this would be giving permission, but warning of hardships that come along with it....

(yes, those are from the catechism)

Funny, the Catacism says nothing about the priest marrying people of different faiths. Know why???

Sure, they allow people to attend their church even if just one spouse is Catholic, and they will take your money also, but they won't marry you nor recognize your marriage as being in the eyes of God.

[redeemedcynic84]

Funny, the Catacism says nothing about the priest marrying people of different faiths. Know why???

Sure, they allow people to attend their church even if just one spouse is Catholic, and they will take your money also, but they won't marry you nor recognize your marriage as being in the eyes of God.

then the specific CHURCH that you went to is wrong...

you realize that Catholicism varies absurdly from place to place, right? (even more than our standards vary from place to place)

wherever you went, well, they don't know what they were talking about...

[HeavenlyOne]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=263243&postcount=136

that is post 136, where I quoted 5 "verses" of the catechism... (note: "verse" isn't the right word, I don't think, but I don't remember what the right word is at the moment, so it works)

in those verses, Muslims and "anyone serching among the shadows and images for God" are stated to be saved....

The word 'saved' isn't even spoken in that passage you quoted.

It's not even implied.

Yes, they recognize the good found in other religions, but they are not mentioned as being 'saved'.

Try again.

[HeavenlyOne]

that's the most telling one... "the plan of salvation also includes... Muslims"

And just exactly what is the 'plan of salvation' being spoken about?

BTW, I'd like a link to where you got your info. Ethically, you should include that when you are copying from another site. Thanks.

[redeemedcynic84]

The word 'saved' isn't even spoken in that passage you quoted.

It's not even implied.

Yes, they recognize the good found in other religions, but they are not mentioned as being 'saved'.

Try again.

you need to read the third one again where it states the Muslims are included in teh plan on salvation again...

methinks you only read the last one and that's it...

[redeemedcynic84]

And just exactly what is the 'plan of salvation' being spoken about?

BTW, I'd like a link to where you got your info. Ethically, you should include that when you are copying from another site. Thanks.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

any of the above will do...

just follow the numbers until you get to 800 and whatever it was... they're numbered nicely like that...

and the "plan of salvation" is the plan of salvation... It means that they're saved... (see: the parts of the Catechism about the "plan of salvation" and "being saved", etc.)

[HeavenlyOne]

are you unable to comprehend what you read???

because you aren't even responding to my posts, your just saying random stuff that doesn't even make sense...

what they said wasn't irrelevant... the comparison to if they complained about catholicism is irrelevant...

You clearly aren't thinking clearly.

You said what they were complaining about re the UPCI wasn't relevant to LR's post about if they were instead complaining of being raised in the RCC. Where are their exact complained about the UPCI, and how is it not relevant to the rules imposed by the RCC?

[HeavenlyOne]

then the specific CHURCH that you went to is wrong...

you realize that Catholicism varies absurdly from place to place, right? (even more than our standards vary from place to place)

wherever you went, well, they don't know what they were talking about...

Try CHICAGO!! One of the largest Catholic groups in the USA!

And I didn't attend there. I've never been Catholic.

I should also mention that my dad and his wife took this all the way to the Cardinal Bishop of the Chicago Diocese. He rejected their marriage also until my mom signed the paper.

[redeemedcynic84]

You clearly aren't thinking clearly.

You said what they were complaining about re the UPCI wasn't relevant to LR's post about if they were instead complaining of being raised in the RCC. Where are their exact complained about the UPCI, and how is it not relevant to the rules imposed by the RCC?

no

I am saying her question about what I would think if they were complaing about the RCC is irrelevant because the complaints would be completely different...

see post 1 for where the band complained about the UPC, the whole point of this thread is this bands complaing about the UPC...

The Roman Catholic stuff is the stuff that is irrelevant to the initial post in this thread... (all of it, really)

[redeemedcynic84]

Try CHICAGO!! One of the largest Catholic groups in the USA!

And I didn't attend there. I've never been Catholic.

I knew a Roman Catholic (well his wife) from Chicago who would beat up his wife for trying to read the Bible because his Roman Catholic church preached against laity reading the Bible...

HOWEVER, there is no official doctrine of that nature and hasn't been for hundreds of years... Its just that one church that is wrong in what they preach... there just is no oversight in Catholicism, I mean, how many little boys got raped before they even began to do anything about it? And you think they're gonna know churches are preaching little things like incorrect teachings on if you can marry outside of CAtholicism or not? Yeah right...

[HeavenlyOne]

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

any of the above will do...

just follow the numbers until you get to 800 and whatever it was... they're numbered nicely like that...

and the "plan of salvation" is the plan of salvation... It means that they're saved... (see: the parts of the Catechism about the "plan of salvation" and "being saved", etc.)

Thanks for the links. I think you missed this part of the Nicene Creed found in those pages.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Guess what that means? If you've been baptised any other way than the way of the RCC, you are not saved!!!!

Thanks for proving my point. The other mumbo jumbo you posted makes no sense in how you are interpreting it.

[redeemedcynic84]

Thanks for the links. I think you missed this part of the Nicene Creed found in those pages.



Guess what that means? If you've been baptised any other way than the way of the RCC, you are not saved!!!!

Thanks for proving my point. The other mumbo jumbo you posted makes no sense in how you are interpreting it.

no, that's not what it means...

the one baptism is not quite that specific....

[HeavenlyOne]

I have a Catholic friend who was married in a Lutheran Church. He was told by a priest he cannot receive Holy Communion because he is living in a state of sin, not being really married. Is that true?

All Catholics are bound for licitly and validity, to the Catholic form of marriage, unless they receive a dispensation from that form. Therefore, a Catholic who would marry outside the Catholic form without a dispensation from the bishop would not be married in the eyes of God. His or her marriage would be illicit and invalid and such a person would be living in a state of serious sin.


From http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/marriages/index.htm#4

[redeemedcynic84]

I have a Catholic friend who was married in a Lutheran Church. He was told by a priest he cannot receive Holy Communion because he is living in a state of sin, not being really married. Is that true?

All Catholics are bound for licitly and validity, to the Catholic form of marriage, unless they receive a dispensation from that form. Therefore, a Catholic who would marry outside the Catholic form without a dispensation from the bishop would not be married in the eyes of God. His or her marriage would be illicit and invalid and such a person would be living in a state of serious sin.


From http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/marriages/index.htm#4

and if you look in the catechism, the Bishops are suppose to give you the "dispensation" to do it if you want to... There is nothing in there stating Bishops are supposed to say no... if the Bishop did, they are wrong...

[HeavenlyOne]

no

I am saying her question about what I would think if they were complaing about the RCC is irrelevant because the complaints would be completely different...

see post 1 for where the band complained about the UPC, the whole point of this thread is this bands complaing about the UPC...

The Roman Catholic stuff is the stuff that is irrelevant to the initial post in this thread... (all of it, really)

The point is, which you seem to be missing, is that the RULES imposed by the UPCI we compared to the Amish. The RCC has waaaaaaaaay more rules that are imposed in the same sense that those who don't follow those rules are considered unsaved. Therefore, the relevance, which you don't want to recognize because you'd have to admit you are wrong.

[HeavenlyOne]

I knew a Roman Catholic (well his wife) from Chicago who would beat up his wife for trying to read the Bible because his Roman Catholic church preached against laity reading the Bible...

HOWEVER, there is no official doctrine of that nature and hasn't been for hundreds of years... Its just that one church that is wrong in what they preach... there just is no oversight in Catholicism, I mean, how many little boys got raped before they even began to do anything about it? And you think they're gonna know churches are preaching little things like incorrect teachings on if you can marry outside of CAtholicism or not? Yeah right...

Funny.....you expect people to believe your 'sources', but want to throw out the info others post.

Read my previous post regarding marriage in the RCC. I'm right.

[LadyRev]

that's the thing, though, if the priest says "no", he's wrong...

I know how Roman Catholic dogma and councils and stuff work... It doesn't matter what priests say now... Unless the pope sits on his chair with his hat on and declares it or there is a council that declares it, the priest is wrong for condemning ohter Christians or Muslims to hell...

Catechism disagrees, Vatican 2 disagrees, etc... those have precedence over anything anyone says now (except the pope on his chair with his hat)...

and I know Catholics who married outside the church and they were ok with it... who use birth control... who have been divorced and remarried...

The things you cite are NOT worldwide issues in the CAtholic church, they are localized to certain areas/places... However there is not one church in the UPCI that doesn't preach against women's pants.... That is the difference here, really...

The things I have been taught and know to be fact ARE worldwide teachings in the RCC. They are NOT localized to certain areas/places.

Those that break the rules by marrying outside the church, using birth control, etc. simply go make confession to their priest and then they are considered OK as long as they stay in the RCC. If their spouse doesn't convert and come into the RCC that spouse is considered to be HELLBOUND until they do. Unless that spouse converts, they can't take communion in the RCC, among other things. They can't even have a catholic funeral unless they converted before death! The priest will only offer services of the church to MEMBERS of the RCC. Membership requires abiding by the rules of the RCC.

Alot of people "attend" catholic church but they aren't necessarily MEMBERS.

You also don't seem to get it...

The Roman Catholic Church started sugar coating their TRUE teachings years ago in order to gain members. They want everyone to be a part of her so they cover up alot of their teachings that would keep people away.

Only true devout catholics dare to "tell it like it is". My dad is one of them.

You do NOT know how the RCC works. You have bought into her lie and thats dangerous my friend. My dad would chew you up and spit you out UNLESS you converted and became just like him. He'd tell you in a heartbeat what your destiny is according to the TRUE teachings of the RCC.

You speak of things which you don't understand and continue to evade my question.

I think its clear for all to see that you would NOT lay blame at the door of any other denomination, no matter how many rules they may have. Why wouldn't you do this? Because your personal agenda is against the UPCI and the UPCI alone.

If those boys had complained of the RCC instead of the UPCI, it actually sounds like you would DEFEND the RCC as I am now defending the UPCI.

[HeavenlyOne]

no, that's not what it means...

the one baptism is not quite that specific....

I hope you aren't purposely acting stupid.

I challenge you to call the local RCC and ask if they'd mind baptising you in Jesus Name via immersion. After they get done laughing, let us know what they said....if they didn't hang up after laughing.

[HeavenlyOne]

and if you look in the catechism, the Bishops are suppose to give you the "dispensation" to do it if you want to... There is nothing in there stating Bishops are supposed to say no... if the Bishop did, they are wrong...

Where is that found in the catechism?

[redeemedcynic84]

The point is, which you seem to be missing, is that the RULES imposed by the UPCI we compared to the Amish. The RCC has waaaaaaaaay more rules that are imposed in the same sense that those who don't follow those rules are considered unsaved. Therefore, the relevance, which you don't want to recognize because you'd have to admit you are wrong.

the difference is a few:

1. the rules in the Catholic church are, by and large, not actually held by the Catholic church... the marriage thing? Not an official Catholic doctrine... things like that...

2. they don't have more rules, the Catechism is a lot longer than our rulebook thingie, but it contains a lot of basic stuff and repeats itself over and over and over again (I feel bad for anyone who actually has to read it)

[redeemedcynic84]

Where is that found in the catechism?

I quoted it before...

what it says about marrying non-Catholics... it never says that they are suppose to deny permission... it just says people need to ask permission before they do it...

[redeemedcynic84]

Funny.....you expect people to believe your 'sources', but want to throw out the info others post.

Read my previous post regarding marriage in the RCC. I'm right.

my source = the Catechism

that's like laughing at someone because they don't care what your source says when they quote the Bible and they contradict...

it doesn't matter what a random priest says, if the catechism disagrees, the catechsim is right... (according to Catholicism)

[HeavenlyOne]

The things I have been taught and know to be fact ARE worldwide teachings in the RCC. They are NOT localized to certain areas/places.

Those that break the rules by marrying outside the church, using birth control, etc. simply go make confession to their priest and then they are considered OK as long as they stay in the RCC. If their spouse doesn't convert and come into the RCC that spouse is considered to be HELLBOUND until they do. Unless that spouse converts, they can't take communion in the RCC, among other things. They can't even have a catholic funeral unless they converted before death! The priest will only offer services of the church to MEMBERS of the RCC. Membership requires abiding by the rules of the RCC.

Alot of people "attend" catholic church but they aren't necessarily MEMBERS.

You also don't seem to get it...

The Roman Catholic Church started sugar coating their TRUE teachings years ago in order to gain members. They want everyone to be a part of her so they cover up alot of their teachings that would keep people away.

Only true devout catholics dare to "tell it like it is". My dad is one of them.

You do NOT know how the RCC works. You have bought into her lie and thats dangerous my friend. My dad would chew you up and spit you out UNLESS you converted and became just like him. He'd tell you in a heartbeat what your destiny is according to the TRUE teachings of the RCC.

You speak of things which you don't understand and continue to evade my question.

I think its clear for all to see that you would NOT lay blame at the door of any other denomination, no matter how many rules they may have. Why wouldn't you do this? Because your personal agenda is against the UPCI and the UPCI alone.

If those boys had complained of the RCC instead of the UPCI, it actually sounds like you would DEFEND the RCC as I am now defending the UPCI.

I will attest to the fact that her dad, when visiting here, will travel over an hour one way to go to a 'real RCC church', because he believes the RCC here in town is charismatic.....LOL!

[HeavenlyOne]

the difference is a few:

1. the rules in the Catholic church are, by and large, not actually held by the Catholic church... the marriage thing? Not an official Catholic doctrine... things like that...

2. they don't have more rules, the Catechism is a lot longer than our rulebook thingie, but it contains a lot of basic stuff and repeats itself over and over and over again (I feel bad for anyone who actually has to read it)

It's clear you don't know what you are talking about.

[redeemedcynic84]

The things I have been taught and know to be fact ARE worldwide teachings in the RCC. They are NOT localized to certain areas/places.

Those that break the rules by marrying outside the church, using birth control, etc. simply go make confession to their priest and then they are considered OK as long as they stay in the RCC. If their spouse doesn't convert and come into the RCC that spouse is considered to be HELLBOUND until they do. Unless that spouse converts, they can't take communion in the RCC, among other things. They can't even have a catholic funeral unless they converted before death! The priest will only offer services of the church to MEMBERS of the RCC. Membership requires abiding by the rules of the RCC.

Alot of people "attend" catholic church but they aren't necessarily MEMBERS.

You also don't seem to get it...

The Roman Catholic Church started sugar coating their TRUE teachings years ago in order to gain members. They want everyone to be a part of her so they cover up alot of their teachings that would keep people away.

Only true devout catholics dare to "tell it like it is". My dad is one of them.

You do NOT know how the RCC works. You have bought into her lie and thats dangerous my friend. My dad would chew you up and spit you out UNLESS you converted and became just like him. He'd tell you in a heartbeat what your destiny is according to the TRUE teachings of the RCC.

You speak of things which you don't understand and continue to evade my question.

I think its clear for all to see that you would NOT lay blame at the door of any other denomination, no matter how many rules they may have. Why wouldn't you do this? Because your personal agenda is against the UPCI and the UPCI alone.

If those boys had complained of the RCC instead of the UPCI, it actually sounds like you would DEFEND the RCC as I am now defending the UPCI.

so your dad probably hates Vatican 2, too...

unfortunately, your dad no longer is in agreement with the Catholic Church... They changed, and they probably aren't going to change back... (I'm going to assume you are quite older than me, too, which puts your CAtholic upbringing a long time ago...)

I wouldn't defend the RCC if those boys complained about them, but thier complaints would be so much different if they complained about the RCC that it wouldn't be the same situation at all...

[redeemedcynic84]

I hope you aren't purposely acting stupid.

I challenge you to call the local RCC and ask if they'd mind baptising you in Jesus Name via immersion. After they get done laughing, let us know what they said....if they didn't hang up after laughing.

hate to tell you this...

but I wasn't referring to them accepting us, they probably don't...

but lutherans, episcopalians, methodists, baptists, etc... those baptism are, by and large, accepted... They don't make you get rebaptized...

[HeavenlyOne]

I quoted it before...

what it says about marrying non-Catholics... it never says that they are suppose to deny permission... it just says people need to ask permission before they do it...

WRONG!!! I assure you, a Catholic priest would NOT EVER consider marrying me to a Catholic boy!!!

Ask permission......ROFL! But suggest that the UPCI members ask permission of their pastor and it's a control issue!!!!

[HeavenlyOne]

my source = the Catechism

that's like laughing at someone because they don't care what your source says when they quote the Bible and they contradict...

it doesn't matter what a random priest says, if the catechism disagrees, the catechsim is right... (according to Catholicism)

The story about the man in Chicago who beat his wife didn't come from the catechism!

You aren't reading, are you?

[redeemedcynic84]

WRONG!!! I assure you, a Catholic priest would NOT EVER consider marrying me to a Catholic boy!!!

Ask permission......ROFL! But suggest that the UPCI members ask permission of their pastor and it's a control issue!!!!

then that priest (or any priest who would do like that priest) is wrong...

you can say it works different all you want, but the Catechism is waht they are suppose to follow, and the Catechism never says not to marry a non-Catholic who is a Christian, it just says those marriages are difficult...

[HeavenlyOne]

hate to tell you this...

but I wasn't referring to them accepting us, they probably don't...

but lutherans, episcopalians, methodists, baptists, etc... those baptism are, by and large, accepted... They don't make you get rebaptized...

Tell my dad that, who was raised Methodist and wasn't considered saved until he went through catachism classes and was rebaptised.

[redeemedcynic84]

The story about the man in Chicago who beat his wife didn't come from the catechism!

You aren't reading, are you?

I was making a point...

just because a Catholic church teaches something doesn't mean it agrees with the doctrine of the Catholic Church....

look at Lady Rev's dad... he would drive an hour to go to a "real RCC church", why? Because doctrine changes massively from place to place in Roman Catholicism because there is no real control... they don't care as long as you send them $$

[redeemedcynic84]

Tell my dad that, who was raised Methodist and wasn't considered saved until he went through catachism classes and was rebaptised.

well, since baptism is suppose to happen before catechism (normally at birth)... I would wonder if that was actually baptism or a different, but similar, rite...

oh, and again, they don't consider other Christians not saved... They don't even consider Muslims not saved... your dad either did this pre-Vatican 2 or he went to a church that wasn't teaching proper doctrine...

[HeavenlyOne]

then that priest (or any priest who would do like that priest) is wrong...

you can say it works different all you want, but the Catechism is waht they are suppose to follow, and the Catechism never says not to marry a non-Catholic who is a Christian, it just says those marriages are difficult...

Yeah, we are going to believe a Pentecostal boy's word that the priest in the RCC is wrong.....LOL!

I'm done beating my head against the wall. I'm off to find better arguments to hold.

[LadyRev]

Muslims and other non-Christians are saved according to the catechism...


The article you quoted does NOT say this. Read your own copy and paste.

It actually says "'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

Meaning they are getting prepared to possibly be saved. It does NOT say they are saved.

THIS ROMAN CATHOLIC STUFF IS RELEVANT AS A COMPARISON -

The UPCI has rules and you are blaming the UPCI and its rules for the condition of the Kings of Leon who were raised in the UPCI.

Using the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH as an example, I'm trying to show you that all churches have RULES and you can't blame the church and its rules for the condition of PEOPLE! NOT ANY CHURCH of ANY KIND!

Is this clear as MUD now?

Good grief...

PEOPLE are responsible for their own actions. The blame game didn't work for Adam and Eve and it won't work for YOU either.

[redeemedcynic84]

Yeah, we are going to believe a Pentecostal boy's word that the priest in the RCC is wrong.....LOL!

I'm done beating my head against the wall. I'm off to find better arguments to hold.

I quoted the catechism and found you links to the entire document...

please find me one place in an official dogma, papal decree, council ruling, or other official document of the Catholic church that someone can't marry a non-Catholic...

[redeemedcynic84]

The article you quoted does NOT say this. Read your own copy and paste.

It actually says "'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

Meaning they are getting prepared to possibly be saved. It does NOT say they are saved.

THIS ROMAN CATHOLIC STUFF IS RELEVANT AS A COMPARISON -

The UPCI has rules and you are blaming the UPCI and its rules for the condition of the Kings of Leon who were raised in the UPCI.

Using the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH as an example, I'm trying to show you that all churches have RULES and you can't blame the church and its rules for the condition of PEOPLE! NOT ANY CHURCH of ANY KIND!

Is this clear as MUD now?

Good grief...

PEOPLE are responsible for their own actions. The blame game didn't work for Adam and Eve and it won't work for YOU either.

it wasn't an article, it was 5 "verses" out of the catechism (you know, the official place to get Catholic doctrine from)

read the third one...

[LadyRev]

and none of those complaints would be anything like the complaint they made about the UPC... thus the situation is completely different and not comparable...

that is why your point is moot... it has no relevance to the situation....

Lots of catholics complain and have plenty to complain about. I WAS ONE OF THEM. Who are you to make blanket statements about things you know nothing about? Have you ever been catholic?

My point has been made repeatedly. The comparison is relevant.

[LadyRev]

it wasn't an article, it was 5 "verses" out of the catechism (you know, the official place to get Catholic doctrine from)

read the third one...

You mean out of this catechism?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Read the whole thing and learn.

[redeemedcynic84]

Lots of catholics complain and have plenty to complain about. I WAS ONE OF THEM. Who are you to make blanket statements about things you know nothing about? Have you ever been catholic?

My point has been made repeatedly. The comparison is relevant.

its irrelevant because the type of complaints and the validity of the complaints differ, not because people don't complain...

it all depends on what they complained about about Catholicism what my reaction would be...

obviously if they complained because thier priest did impure thing with them, I'd back them up...

if they complained because of something absurd and lame ("I had to go to mass on Sunday mornings and I was bored so I hate God now!!") I would rip on them for it...

[redeemedcynic84]

You mean out of this catechism?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Read the whole thing and learn.

I've read most of it...

the point is that I posted a specific passage that states that Muslims are saved and part of the plan of salvation... and you have as of yet (5 pages later) to have any reply at all to what I posted other than "nuh-huh"...

[HeavenlyOne]

Just a couple more blurbs from the same site posted above:

Is it ever permissible to leave the Catholic Religion and join another church?

The Second Vatican Council, teaching what the Catholic Faith has always held, declared: "whoever, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her cannot be saved". St. Cyprian said, "No one can have God for Father unless he also has the Church for his Mother".

If a Catholic quits the Catholic Church and joins an- other Church, can he get to heaven?

The Second Vatican Council teaches what the Church has always taught, namely, "Whosoever, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her cannot be saved."

Is it okay for a Catholic child to attend Bible-school programs in another church in the summer? There is no Catholic Bible-study for my children in our own parish and my sister-in-law invited my daughter to attend the one at her non-Catholic Church.

It is possible that the non-Catholic school program might be harmless, but it is also possible that it could contain false religious teaching and harm the faith of your daughter. Unless you know for certain that her faith will not be harmed, I would recommend very strongly that she refuse the invitation from your sister-in-law. Why don't you talk to your pastor and perhaps start and run a Catholic Bible-school program in your parish? Also, obtain a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and go over it carefully, line by line, article by article, with your daughter during the summer. There is an abundance of Bible-related material in the Catechism and this will do much more good for your daughter than having her attend a non-Catholic program. It might also help you to know your Catholic Faith better than you do now.

Strange they would feel that way if they considered other religions to be saved.........

Anyway, this thread isn't about the Catholics, so I'm bowing out after making my point.

[redeemedcynic84]

Just a couple more blurbs from the same site posted above:

Is it ever permissible to leave the Catholic Religion and join another church?

The Second Vatican Council, teaching what the Catholic Faith has always held, declared: "whoever, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her cannot be saved". St. Cyprian said, "No one can have God for Father unless he also has the Church for his Mother".

If a Catholic quits the Catholic Church and joins an- other Church, can he get to heaven?

The Second Vatican Council teaches what the Church has always taught, namely, "Whosoever, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her cannot be saved."

Is it okay for a Catholic child to attend Bible-school programs in another church in the summer? There is no Catholic Bible-study for my children in our own parish and my sister-in-law invited my daughter to attend the one at her non-Catholic Church.

It is possible that the non-Catholic school program might be harmless, but it is also possible that it could contain false religious teaching and harm the faith of your daughter. Unless you know for certain that her faith will not be harmed, I would recommend very strongly that she refuse the invitation from your sister-in-law. Why don't you talk to your pastor and perhaps start and run a Catholic Bible-school program in your parish? Also, obtain a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and go over it carefully, line by line, article by article, with your daughter during the summer. There is an abundance of Bible-related material in the Catechism and this will do much more good for your daughter than having her attend a non-Catholic program. It might also help you to know your Catholic Faith better than you do now.

Strange they would feel that way if they considered other religions to be saved.........

Anyway, this thread isn't about the Catholics, so I'm bowing out after making my point.

I find it funny that you keep quoting a site (I'm not sure which site I linked has this stuff I thought they were just web versions of the actual catechism (they're obviously not)), but I am quoting the catechism...

that's like people quoting other people in response to you quoting the Bible... it doesn't make sense and your argument holds no water because of it...

[LadyRev]

I've read most of it...

the point is that I posted a specific passage that states that Muslims are saved and part of the plan of salvation... and you have as of yet (5 pages later) to have any reply at all to what I posted other than "nuh-huh"...

Excuse me, I did reply to it. Scroll back just a little ways and you will see.

The link I posted contains the exact same thing you posted about the Muslims.

I repeat, as I did previously, it does NOT say that Muslims are saved. Read it again.

You are falling for RC lingo intended to confuse and deceive.

My point stands.

You can not blame the UPCI and its rules for the condition of the Kings of Leon anymore than you could blame the RCC if they had been raised that way instead.

I'm out for the day.

Enjoy your "catechism" studies.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

[HeavenlyOne]

Oh, and didn't you say they considered Lutherans to be saved???


I have a Catholic friend who was married in a Lutheran Church. He was told by a priest he cannot receive Holy Communion because he is living in a state of sin, not being really married. Is that true?

All Catholics are bound for licitly and validity, to the Catholic form of marriage, unless they receive a dispensation from that form. Therefore, a Catholic who would marry outside the Catholic form without a dispensation from the bishop would not be married in the eyes of God. His or her marriage would be illicit and invalid and such a person would be living in a state of serious sin.

[philjones]

Its all about the blame game don't ya know? Poor widdle backslider backslid because of the church, nevermind the fact that people will be people and turn from God like they have throughout history.

Bro. Eastman,

I appreciate you and know that you are speaking somewhat tongue in cheek but I have to tell you that this is also the wrong approach and attitude. Unfortunately, although you are likely teasing for impact, some actually feel this way about backsliders.

We have to lovingly put a backslider in a position where they can comfortably accept responsibility for their bad decisions without fear of condemnation or derision. We must not enable them in their error but neither should disable them in ours. Forthright honesty from a compassionate heart is the key to reaching the backslider, not ridicule.

[HeavenlyOne]

I find it funny that you keep quoting a site (I'm not sure which site I linked has this stuff I thought they were just web versions of the actual catechism (they're obviously not)), but I am quoting the catechism...

that's like people quoting other people in response to you quoting the Bible... it doesn't make sense and your argument holds no water because of it...

The quotes are coming from a website operated by a Catholic Diocese!!!

http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/

[redeemedcynic84]

Excuse me, I did reply to it. Scroll back just a little ways and you will see.

The link I posted contains the exact same thing you posted about the Muslims.

I repeat, as I did previously, it does NOT say that Muslims are saved. Read it again.

You are falling for RC lingo intended to confuse and deceive.

My point stands.

You can not blame the UPCI and its rules for the condition of the Kings of Leon anymore than you could blame the RCC if they had been raised that way instead.

I'm out for the day.

Enjoy your "catechism" studies.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

you responded to 843, you ignored, however, 841 which explicitly states that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation...

841 states "the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator", period...

Anyone who acknowledges the God of Abraham, then, according to 841 is saved. period. You can argue it all you want, but that is explicitly what it says.

843 is in reference to non-Judeo-Christo-Islamic religions... You know, Wicca, Buddhism, Hindu, etc...

just like 841 and 842 are referring to Judaism exclusively...

it isn't RC lingo, you are either just playing dumb or incapable of understanding what they are saying...

[redeemedcynic84]

Oh, and didn't you say they considered Lutherans to be saved???


I have a Catholic friend who was married in a Lutheran Church. He was told by a priest he cannot receive Holy Communion because he is living in a state of sin, not being really married. Is that true?

All Catholics are bound for licitly and validity, to the Catholic form of marriage, unless they receive a dispensation from that form. Therefore, a Catholic who would marry outside the Catholic form without a dispensation from the bishop would not be married in the eyes of God. His or her marriage would be illicit and invalid and such a person would be living in a state of serious sin.

read what you said again...

the problem is not with WHO they married, but WHERE they married...

[redeemedcynic84]

The quotes are coming from a website operated by a Catholic Diocese!!!

http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/

the Catechism >>>> Diocese of Lincoln

that's like quoting the UPCI website and acting like that quote is more important than the Bible...

[HeavenlyOne]

the Catechism >>>> Diocese of Lincoln

that's like quoting the UPCI website and acting like that quote is more important than the Bible...

You are comparing the catechism to the Bible???? ROFL!!

Now this conversation is REALLY over!!!

[HeavenlyOne]

Bro. Eastman,

I appreciate you and know that you are speaking somewhat tongue in cheek but I have to tell you that this is also the wrong approach and attitude. Unfortunately, although you are likely teasing for impact, some actually feel this way about backsliders.

We have to lovingly put a backslider in a position where they can comfortably accept responsibility for their bad decisions without fear of condemnation or derision. We must not enable them in their error but neither should disable them in ours. Forthright honesty from a compassionate heart is the key to reaching the backslider, not ridicule.

Great post!!!

[redeemedcynic84]

You are comparing the catechism to the Bible???? ROFL!!

Now this conversation is REALLY over!!!

lol, I'm not saying both are truth...

but in Catholic terms, official documents like the Catechism or Creeds or Edicts from Councils or Papal decrees ARE on level with the Bible...

some random quotes from an archdiocese somewhere are not...

[HeavenlyOne]

lol, I'm not saying both are truth...

but in Catholic terms, official documents like the Catechism or Creeds or Edicts from Councils or Papal decrees ARE on level with the Bible...

some random quotes from an archdiocese somewhere are not...

You obviously didn't go to the website. They quote catechism 'rules'.

Funny though, you won't believe the diocese website (why, I don't know, since they are 'official'), but someone come on here spouting their story about how the UPCI did them wrong and they are speaking gospel!

You won't believe an angelfire website about Catholicism, but have a disgruntled former member of the UPCI speaking about how their pastor did them wrong, and the UPCI becomes a punching bag for those who wish to find fault, including you.

[philjones]

Great post!!!

Thank you!

[redeemedcynic84]

You obviously didn't go to the website. They quote catechism 'rules'.

Funny though, you won't believe the diocese website (why, I don't know, since they are 'official'), but someone come on here spouting their story about how the UPCI did them wrong and they are speaking gospel!

You won't believe an angelfire website about Catholicism, but have a disgruntled former member of the UPCI speaking about how their pastor did them wrong, and the UPCI becomes a punching bag for those who wish to find fault, including you.

lol you are completely misconstruing what I am saying...

What they are complaining about is, in fact, the official position of the UPCI, that is why I'm believing what they say...

but what you are saying is NOT the official Catholic doctrine on these subjects, period... It doesn't matter if your old CAtholic church worked that way, those aren't the official doctrines of the church from Rome...

and I did not say one word in this thread to make the UPCI a punching bag, I love the UPCI... my main complaing about our group is the simple fact that we refuse to conciously look at ourselves and what we do and try to do better and change because we are so deathly afraid of some imaginary slippery slope to hell...

[BrotherEastman]

Bro. Eastman,

I appreciate you and know that you are speaking somewhat tongue in cheek but I have to tell you that this is also the wrong approach and attitude. Unfortunately, although you are likely teasing for impact, some actually feel this way about backsliders.

We have to lovingly put a backslider in a position where they can comfortably accept responsibility for their bad decisions without fear of condemnation or derision. We must not enable them in their error but neither should disable them in ours. Forthright honesty from a compassionate heart is the key to reaching the backslider, not ridicule.
Bro. Jones I agree with you about the backslider, I was one myself. My point is that no one can blame others for the sin that he or she does. I apologize for coming off as a little insensitive, that wasn't my intent. DA starts a fire, then is afraid to come out and make his own comments.

[pelathais]

too badddd, lol the devil deceives folks every day, and these boys are deceived, and drawn of course by the fame, fortune, and whatever, sad story,dt:hypercoffee
I think I caught your irony here. The "Kings" were "off course" before the "fame" and whatever "fortune" they may have amassed. Hopefully they are learning as it appears from the article. One of their mentor groups seems to have given up the bottle. That's a hopeful sign.

[HeavenlyOne]

lol you are completely misconstruing what I am saying...

What they are complaining about is, in fact, the official position of the UPCI, that is why I'm believing what they say...

but what you are saying is NOT the official Catholic doctrine on these subjects, period... It doesn't matter if your old CAtholic church worked that way, those aren't the official doctrines of the church from Rome...

and I did not say one word in this thread to make the UPCI a punching bag, I love the UPCI... my main complaing about our group is the simple fact that we refuse to conciously look at ourselves and what we do and try to do better and change because we are so deathly afraid of some imaginary slippery slope to hell...

LOL!

Their complaint was:

You couldn't listen to anything but gospel music. No TV, no movies, no pants or makeup for women.

Where does the manual say nothing but gospel music? Where does it speak against pants on women (not sure why they'd care, being boys)? Where does it say no movies??

You claimed they were complaining about things that are official positions. Prove it. I have proven otherwise.

[redeemedcynic84]

LOL!

Their complaint was:

You couldn't listen to anything but gospel music. No TV, no movies, no pants or makeup for women.

Where does the manual say nothing but gospel music? Where does it speak against pants on women (not sure why they'd care, being boys)? Where does it say no movies??

You claimed they were complaining about things that are official positions. Prove it. I have proven otherwise.

no you haven't.... you just said they aren't...

Please find one church in the UPCI that doesn't preach that women can wear pants...

find me one church in the UPCI where they don't preach against makeup...

and movies is in the manual (or was until recently)...

as far as music goes, Christian music didn't exist until 10 years ago, so I seriously doubt these guys were listening to much other than gospel music years ago...

Oh yeah, and please try and argue against the assertian that we are becoming almost Amish... Not in that we're doing exactly what the Amish do, but that we're disconnecting ourselves from society around us (and not in a "seperate" way, but in a "we are a completely different society unto ourselves" way)

[The Dean]

Kings of Leon love the life of rock
October 4, 2007

BY BEN EDMONDS
FREE PRESS SPECIAL WRITER

From the Wilson family of the Beach Boys to the battling Gallagher brothers of Oasis, rock 'n' roll has a rich fraternal history. This is especially true of Southern rock. Beginning with the brothers Burnette (Johnny and Dorsey) and Everly (Phil and Don), extending through the Allman Brothers and the bands of the Van Zandt clan (of which Ronnie's Lynyrd Skynyrd was only the first) and down to Chris and Rich Robinson of the Black Crowes.

The latest in this lineage are the three brothers (and, like the Beach Boys, a cousin) from Tennessee who call themselves Kings of Leon. Already chart-toppers in England, their steady march toward the same destination Stateside arrives at the Fillmore Detroit on Thursday, where they'll headline a bill that also includes Black Rebel Motorcycle Club and Manchester Orchestra.

The quartet's rootsy, passionate Americana, infused with enough punkish energy to mark them as a modern extension of the Southern rock tradition, attracted critical hosannas in Europe when the debut Kings of Leon album was released in 2003. The band soon found itself opening arena and stadium shows for U2, Oasis and the Strokes. This would have been a daunting proposition for most young bands, but the Kings (as they're known in fan shorthand) embraced it.

"It was a little scary at first," admits bassist Jared Followill, at almost-21 the youngest King. (The others are brothers singer-guitarist Caleb and drummer Nathan, plus cousin Matthew Followill on lead guitar.) "You start out and the coolest thing you can possibly imagine is playing in front of a hundred sweaty kids in some tiny club. That's really cool; we still like doing that. But there's something about playing in front of thousands and thousands of people that can be incredibly inspiring. You should be in it to grow, and reach more and more people."

Like so many Southern rockers before them, Kings of Leon come from a church background where secular music was forbidden. Perhaps escaped that background would be a better description, according to Jared. "It was so strict it was almost Amish," he says of the United Pentecostal Church, in which their father was a traveling preacher.

"It was ridiculous. You couldn't listen to anything but gospel music. No TV, no movies, no pants or makeup for women. Everything changed when our parents divorced and I started going to public school. We went from a completely sheltered world to a completely un-sheltered world. I loved it! It was like coming up for air."

This helps explain the Kings' already legendary fondness for post-show socializing. "We figured it out the other day," the bassist confides, "and the alcohol that's been consumed on this tour would probably fill eight or nine swimming pools. We learned about partying when we toured with the Strokes. We'd show up for sound check and they'd be there with cups of vodka. I'd seen people drink beer at a football game, but this was the middle of the day! We were basically corrupted by the Strokes. Then they stopped drinking, so the joke's on us."

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071004/ENT04/710040328/1039

"Be not deceived, God is NOT mocked"
God will not be mocked forever - take that to the bank.

[Timmy]

"Be not deceived, God is NOT mocked"
God will not be mocked forever - take that to the bank.

I'm confused. Who's mocking God?

[The Dean]

I'm confused. Who's mocking God?

You obviously didn't read the article.

[Timmy]

You obviously didn't read the article.

Read it a couple of times, actually. Oh, sorry. Rejecting UPC is mocking God. Never mind. I'll crawl back in my hole now! :hypercoffee

[Praxeas]

Read it a couple of times, actually. Oh, sorry. Rejecting UPC is mocking God. Never mind. I'll crawl back in my hole now! :hypercoffee
You might have missed this part smart mouth

Everything changed when our parents divorced and I started going to public school. We went from a completely sheltered world to a completely un-sheltered world. I loved it! It was like coming up for air."

This helps explain the Kings' already legendary fondness for post-show socializing. "We figured it out the other day," the bassist confides, "and the alcohol that's been consumed on this tour would probably fill eight or nine swimming pools. We learned about partying when we toured with the Strokes. We'd show up for sound check and they'd be there with cups of vodka. I'd seen people drink beer at a football game, but this was the middle of the day! We were basically corrupted by the Strokes. Then they stopped drinking, so the joke's on us."

[pelathais]

You obviously didn't read the article.
To be fair, the "mocking God" really applies to things about the "Kings" not covered in this particular article. Things like calling their album "Because of the Times" might be construed as mocking, but then again it may only have some ironic twist that escapes me.

Personally, my greatest concern for them is that they stop the hard drinking while they still have plenty of liver function. That and don't get behind the wheel of a car. Don't turn your irresponsibility into a tragedy for some stranger down the road.

[pelathais]

You might have missed this part smart mouth

Everything changed when our parents divorced and I started going to public school. We went from a completely sheltered world to a completely un-sheltered world. I loved it! It was like coming up for air."

This helps explain the Kings' already legendary fondness for post-show socializing. "We figured it out the other day," the bassist confides, "and the alcohol that's been consumed on this tour would probably fill eight or nine swimming pools. We learned about partying when we toured with the Strokes. We'd show up for sound check and they'd be there with cups of vodka. I'd seen people drink beer at a football game, but this was the middle of the day! We were basically corrupted by the Strokes. Then they stopped drinking, so the joke's on us."
I would say that behavior is "wrong" but I wouldn't classify it as "mocking God."

[The Dean]

Read it a couple of times, actually. Oh, sorry. Rejecting UPC is mocking God. Never mind. I'll crawl back in my hole now! :hypercoffee

Wow. A cheap shot! Tell me it isn't so... I'm so hurt. :saycheese Aren't you the star of the show!

Please read Praxeas post if you are still confused about mocking God and his ways. There really is no cure for a lack of class so I won't try.

I'll stick with my original claim: Mocking God and His ways.

[Praxeas]

I would say that behavior is "wrong" but I wouldn't classify it as "mocking God."

Gal 6:6 Now the one who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with the one who teaches it.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived. God will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows,
Gal 6:8 because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Gal 6:9 So we must not grow weary in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not give up.

[Timmy]

Personally, my greatest concern for them is that they stop the hard drinking while they still have plenty of liver function. That and don't get behind the wheel of a car. Don't turn your irresponsibility into a tragedy for some stranger down the road.

Agreed!

[pelathais]

Gal 6:6 Now the one who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with the one who teaches it.

Okay, pay the preacher...

Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived. God will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows,
Gal 6:8 because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Gal 6:9 So we must not grow weary in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not give up.
And here we find the principle of sowing and reaping. However, by "sowing to the flesh" (and I don't recommend doing so) one isn't "mocking God." To try and say that there are no consequences for doing such, that may be mocking God. But the "Kings of Leon" are clearly quoted at the end as saying, "We were basically corrupted by the Strokes. Then they stopped drinking, so the joke's on us."

It's a bit off handed, granted, but there does seem to be a realization that they have some "growing up" to do. While not endorsing the course they have chosen, I think that they do show a hint of promise with that last statement. And in doing so, God is not mocked, IMHO.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I have family members who have strayed so far from God. When the ole Fringe_Nutter talks to them I try to show them kindness and love in my words. Some of them tell me that no matter how hard they try they can never measure up. Recently I had a friend who attended a church service where I was visiting. Almost the entire topic of the sermon was devoted to pants being an abomination as homosexuality, ungodly swim suits, and how watching TV will send a person to hell. Oh, and there were several minutes donated to saying how the UPC folks were going to hell in a hand basket for voting in TV. There is a time and a season for all things but I question the intent of preachers who must preach about these topics so frequently.

[ChTatum]

I have not read the whole thread, and I probably should.

But, the bottom line as I see it is this, when one teaching does not hold up to scrutiny, all others are brought into question.

This is not only true for the "Kings", but for all of us, who no longer hold to the strict teachings we grew up with. We found inconsistency, hypocrisy, and pharisaical attitudes that were not Biblically foundational. When you cannot defend one position Biblically, all others come into question.

Sad, yes.
True, even more so.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I have not read the whole thread, and I probably should.

But, the bottom line as I see it is this, when one teaching does not hold up to scrutiny, all others are brought into question.

This is not only true for the "Kings", but for all of us, who no longer hold to the strict teachings we grew up with. We found inconsistency, hypocrisy, and pharisaical attitudes that were not Biblically foundational. When you cannot defend one position Biblically, all others come into question.

Sad, yes.
True, even more so.

AMEN, ChTatum. Insightful post. Ultimately, Kings of Leon have no one to blame but themselves if they are lost, but the Family and the Church can create an environment that can nurture or destroy. Sad. Pray for these young men. I've seen environments that were supposed to be nurturing ones, but they killed. Kind of like putting too much Miracle Grow on tomato plants. They needed balance and obviously they weren't taught it.

[ChTatum]

I agree, Fringe.

If I end up lost, I have no one to blame other then the man I see in the mirror.

I have seen much that cannot be defended, but it is irrelevant when it comes to MY salvation.

[Scott Hutchinson]

If wanted these guys want to live for God,they would they can't blame the UPCI for not serving God.
Besides all UPCI churches are the same standards wise.
The question is do you want God in your life,or not ?
I know that there are hard nosed legalists,out there but that doesn't stop one from being saved if they desire a walk with God.
True Holiness is still commanded for believers.

[Timmy]

You might have missed this part smart mouth

Everything changed when our parents divorced and I started going to public school. We went from a completely sheltered world to a completely un-sheltered world. I loved it! It was like coming up for air."


I didn't miss it. Really don't think that is mocking God.


This helps explain the Kings' already legendary fondness for post-show socializing. "We figured it out the other day," the bassist confides, "and the alcohol that's been consumed on this tour would probably fill eight or nine swimming pools. We learned about partying when we toured with the Strokes. We'd show up for sound check and they'd be there with cups of vodka. I'd seen people drink beer at a football game, but this was the middle of the day! We were basically corrupted by the Strokes. Then they stopped drinking, so the joke's on us."

Didn't miss that, either. This one's a stronger argument, but I still wouldn't consider it mocking. Is all disobedience mocking, in your view?

Wow. A cheap shot! Tell me it isn't so... I'm so hurt. :saycheese Aren't you the star of the show!

Please read Praxeas post if you are still confused about mocking God and his ways. There really is no cure for a lack of class so I won't try.

I'll stick with my original claim: Mocking God and His ways.

I apologize for the cheap shot. I could have been more straightforward in giving my opinion. As for your claim, we'll agree to disagree. Cool?

[HeavenlyOne]

no you haven't.... you just said they aren't...

Please find one church in the UPCI that doesn't preach that women can wear pants...

find me one church in the UPCI where they don't preach against makeup...

I attended one in southern Illinois. He preached that he (not the Bible) preferred women not to wear pants, but there were exceptions. He stated that culottes should be worn while gardening, and there were two women, one a surgical nurse and the other a factory worker, who wore pants to work.

He also preached that makeup, if worn, wasn't to be seen. A lot of women in my church wore makeup but I only found out some of them because we travelled together for a choir tour. One of the makeup wearers I sat next to in choir for over a year and had no idea she wore makeup.

and movies is in the manual (or was until recently)...

as far as music goes, Christian music didn't exist until 10 years ago, so I seriously doubt these guys were listening to much other than gospel music years ago...

Are you smoking crack? Seriously. I have Christian music records that date back to the 1950's!!!

If you are talking contemporary, I have cassette taped from when I was a teen over 20 years old!

Oh yeah, and please try and argue against the assertian that we are becoming almost Amish... Not in that we're doing exactly what the Amish do, but that we're disconnecting ourselves from society around us (and not in a "seperate" way, but in a "we are a completely different society unto ourselves" way)

You don't know much about the Amish, do you? I live in an Amish community. We are more like the local cult group that resides here, if you want to be specific. The Amish are nothing like that.

Preaching against pants on women and them cutting their hair is hardly putting themselves in 'a completely different society unto ourselves'.

Please.....get a little older and actually have life experiences before speaking as the expert on all topics like you do. You are only 23. I bet you don't even have chest hair yet.

[MissBrattified]

I bet you don't even have chest hair yet.

:heeheehee :heeheehee :ursofunny

[HeavenlyOne]

:heeheehee :heeheehee :ursofunny

Thanks for pointing out the main thought of my post.......LOL!

[pelathais]

I attended one in southern Illinois. He preached that he (not the Bible) preferred women not to wear pants, but there were exceptions. He stated that culottes should be worn while gardening, and there were two women, one a surgical nurse and the other a factory worker, who wore pants to work.

He also preached that makeup, if worn, wasn't to be seen. A lot of women in my church wore makeup but I only found out some of them because we travelled together for a choir tour. One of the makeup wearers I sat next to in choir for over a year and had no idea she wore makeup.



Are you smoking crack? Seriously. I have Christian music records that date back to the 1950's!!!

If you are talking contemporary, I have cassette taped from when I was a teen over 20 years old!



You don't know much about the Amish, do you? I live in an Amish community. We are more like the local cult group that resides here, if you want to be specific. The Amish are nothing like that.

Preaching against pants on women and them cutting their hair is hardly putting themselves in 'a completely different society unto ourselves'.

Please.....get a little older and actually have life experiences before speaking as the expert on all topics like you do. You are only 23. I bet you don't even have chest hair yet.

No! No! No! HeavenlyOne is my friend and she's trying to help. I will NOT post the obvious retort here. I will not!

[MissBrattified]

Thanks for pointing out the main thought of my post.......LOL!

That was what stood out to me. :bliss

Although...I'm flabbergasted that RC thinks Christian music has only been around for 10 years!!!! ROFL!!!! CHURCH music has been around for THOUSANDS of years....many classical pieces were written for church!!!!!!!!

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Thanks for pointing out the main thought of my post.......LOL!

Can you find this dear desperate soul a wife to help him.




:sshhh

[stmatthew]

no you haven't.... you just said they aren't...

Please find one church in the UPCI that doesn't preach that women can wear pants...

find me one church in the UPCI where they don't preach against makeup...

and movies is in the manual (or was until recently)...

as far as music goes, Christian music didn't exist until 10 years ago, so I seriously doubt these guys were listening to much other than gospel music years ago...

Oh yeah, and please try and argue against the assertian that we are becoming almost Amish... Not in that we're doing exactly what the Amish do, but that we're disconnecting ourselves from society around us (and not in a "seperate" way, but in a "we are a completely different society unto ourselves" way)

Ever been to TN??? :driving

[HeavenlyOne]

No! No! No! HeavenlyOne is my friend and she's trying to help. I will NOT post the obvious retort here. I will not!

I can only imagine what you are thinking!! LOL!

[pelathais]

Ever been to TN??? :driving
"...poor desperate souls" can find wives in TN?

Didn't you say that you moved to TN recently StMatt?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

"...poor desperate souls" can find wives in TN?

Didn't you say that you moved to TN recently StMatt?

He moved within TN

Wait, you have a daughter!

:evilglee

[redeemedcynic84]

"Be not deceived, God is NOT mocked"
God will not be mocked forever - take that to the bank.

how exactly were they mocking God?

[redeemedcynic84]

You might have missed this part smart mouth

Everything changed when our parents divorced and I started going to public school. We went from a completely sheltered world to a completely un-sheltered world. I loved it! It was like coming up for air."

This helps explain the Kings' already legendary fondness for post-show socializing. "We figured it out the other day," the bassist confides, "and the alcohol that's been consumed on this tour would probably fill eight or nine swimming pools. We learned about partying when we toured with the Strokes. We'd show up for sound check and they'd be there with cups of vodka. I'd seen people drink beer at a football game, but this was the middle of the day! We were basically corrupted by the Strokes. Then they stopped drinking, so the joke's on us."

that's not mocking God...

mocking us, maybe, but definately not mocking God....

[redeemedcynic84]

I attended one in southern Illinois. He preached that he (not the Bible) preferred women not to wear pants, but there were exceptions. He stated that culottes should be worn while gardening, and there were two women, one a surgical nurse and the other a factory worker, who wore pants to work.

He also preached that makeup, if worn, wasn't to be seen. A lot of women in my church wore makeup but I only found out some of them because we travelled together for a choir tour. One of the makeup wearers I sat next to in choir for over a year and had no idea she wore makeup.


and that would be phariseeical and un-Biblical... you can't preach "I prefer this" and actually expect people to care...

Are you smoking crack? Seriously. I have Christian music records that date back to the 1950's!!!

If you are talking contemporary, I have cassette taped from when I was a teen over 20 years old!

I know some existed, but it was hard to find and not common (in terms of "non-gospel" stuff)...

real Christian music as a genre didn't boom until DC Talk & Jars of Clay hit massively (I think both went double platinum) in the mid-90s...

You don't know much about the Amish, do you? I live in an Amish community. We are more like the local cult group that resides here, if you want to be specific. The Amish are nothing like that.

Preaching against pants on women and them cutting their hair is hardly putting themselves in 'a completely different society unto ourselves'.

Please.....get a little older and actually have life experiences before speaking as the expert on all topics like you do. You are only 23. I bet you don't even have chest hair yet.


lol

the Amish are like that... when you refuse to use electricity, or wear clothes bought in stores and such, you are a culture unto yourself...

and if they don't do those things, they're probably rejected by most other Amish...

[redeemedcynic84]

That was what stood out to me. :bliss

Although...I'm flabbergasted that RC thinks Christian music has only been around for 10 years!!!! ROFL!!!! CHURCH music has been around for THOUSANDS of years....many classical pieces were written for church!!!!!!!!

someone didn't understand what I was saying...

[Trouvere]

no chest hair????

[redeemedcynic84]

no chest hair????

yeah, I ignored that part...

the fact that that person has to throw in comments like that says a lot about them and the argument they're making (and it isn't good things)

[Hoovie]

Just a note on the Amish. To my knowledge they would not consider their way the only way... But if you become a member of their church you are expected to conform - yes. Start practicing your German! :)

[Praxeas]

No! No! No! HeavenlyOne is my friend and she's trying to help. I will NOT post the obvious retort here. I will not!
You too? I had one in mind...let's compare notes

[Praxeas]

I know some existed, but it was hard to find and not common (in terms of "non-gospel" stuff)...

real Christian music as a genre didn't boom until DC Talk & Jars of Clay hit massively (I think both went double platinum) in the mid-90s...
You really REALLY don't know what you are talking about. Christian music as a genre HAS been around even before I started in the UPC just over 20 years ago. You can change the subject from there being Christian music to it "booming", which is a subjective issue anyways, but the fact is Christian music has been around for a long long long MUCH LONGER time than 10 years lol

[Praxeas]

Just a note on the Amish. To my knowledge they would not consider their way the only way... But if you become a member of their church you are expected to conform - yes. Start practicing your German! :)
and your barn raisin'

[redeemedcynic84]

You really REALLY don't know what you are talking about. Christian music as a genre HAS been around even before I started in the UPC just over 20 years ago. You can change the subject from there being Christian music to it "booming", which is a subjective issue anyways, but the fact is Christian music has been around for a long long long MUCH LONGER time than 10 years lol

ok, to clarify, again...

Christian music as an actual alternative to popular music didn't exist until the mid-1990s...

and, there is a massive boom in Christian music now...

Skillet, TFK, Pillar, The Almost, UnderOath, Demon Hunter, Mercy Me, etc., etc., etc. getting mainstream play... bands going platinum...

UnderOath was a headlining band on the "Warped Tour" this year, sharing that distinction with bands like Red Jumpsuit Aparratus...

was there "Christian music" in the 1970s? Yeah, but by and large it was considered "gospel music"... and yeah Stryper and Petra and some others existed in the 1980s, but they were an afterthought and a joke by and large...

but now? Switchfoot is considered a normal band even though they are definately a Christian band...

you have bands like Chevelle and Evanescence who would have never gotten a break if it weren't for Christian music... yeah, they turned thier back on it (and God) along the way, but that doesn't change that the Christian Music "industry" got them started...

my point was more that Christian music isn't a wierd sub-genre anymore, hasn't been for about a decade, its normal now... The average American has Christian CDs in thier collection, even if they might not realize it.... 20-30 years ago that wasn't the case...

[bishoph]

RC I'm sorry you just don't get it!

If you are stating that the genre of "Contemporary Christian Music" has only been around 10 years or so you are still off by at least 10 years. (Phil Driscoll, Don Francisco, Amy Grant, Carmen and many more were 25+ years ago and were considered "Contemporary Gospel" back then)

The reality is that many (maybe even the majority) of the biggest names in music (all genres) had their start in Gospel or Christian music.