View Full Version : The UPC is gaining ministers!
ChicagoPastor
10-08-2007, 08:19 AM
Here's a new spin on the whole TV thing.
I'm hearing of many ALJC ministers and independants that are coming into the UPC or at least considering it, including officials of other organizations...
Several ALJC ministers joined the UPC over the last few years even with the TV restriction. They said that more would join but the prohibition on TV had kept several from joining....now that this resolution has passed many are coming in!
One district official in the ALJC told me he had already handled several ministers request to drop license and join the UPC...
In a few years when we look back at this time in Apostolic History, numericaly it might come out to be a wash.... 200 leave, 200 join.......we'll see.
Counting noses doesn't tell the tale.\
When you lose men of the caliber of some of those who are leaving, you don't replace them by just licensing some other guy.
This time it isn't some radical fringe leaving.
Many of these are solid men.
ChicagoPastor
10-08-2007, 08:32 AM
Counting noses doesn't tell the tale.\
When you lose men of the caliber of some of those who are leaving, you don't replace them by just licensing some other guy.
This time it isn't some radical fringe leaving.
Many of these are solid men.
Some of the names coming from the ALJC are prominant amongst them.
ChicagoPastor
10-08-2007, 08:38 AM
I think what is going to happen in the UPC is going to be similar to what happens sometimes in the sports world. Some sports star leaves their team and everyone gets upset about it, the fans get mad at the team, criticize management, talk about how the team is going to be worse off and THEN the guys' backup steps in and shows that he's just as good or better.
i.e. Indianapoli Colts......E. James left....Addaih steps up
McNabb goes down, Garcia steps up
need I bring up Bledsoe and Brady? Bledsoe and Romo?
Griese and Grossman......lol ok that was a bad example but you get my drift.
The UPC is still an organization of men and women that are trying to reach the world with the gospel, it still is a mission's minded organization and that pleases God. IMO God's not gonna let this ship sink....nor is it even close to sinking anyhow
BoredOutOfMyMind
10-08-2007, 08:38 AM
I wonder how Resolution #3 will affect all this.
Newly licensed ALJC ministers no longer can have certain men in their pulpits....
ChicagoPastor
10-08-2007, 08:42 AM
I wonder how Resolution #3 will affect all this.
Newly licensed ALJC ministers no longer can have certain men in their pulpits....
??ALJC ministers?
i don't get it.
I think what is going to happen in the UPC is going to be similar to what happens sometimes in the sports world. Some sports star leaves their team and everyone gets upset about it, the fans get mad at the team, criticize management, talk about how the team is going to be worse off and THEN the guys' backup steps in and shows that he's just as good or better.
i.e. Indianapoli Colts......E. James left....Addaih steps up
McNabb goes down, Garcia steps up
need I bring up Bledsoe and Brady? Bledsoe and Romo?
Griese and Grossman......lol ok that was a bad example but you get my drift.
The UPC is still an organization of men and women that are trying to reach the world with the gospel, it still is a mission's minded organization and that pleases God. IMO God's not gonna let this ship sink....nor is it even close to sinking anyhow
Comparing the UPC to a sports team and preachers to star athletes is a reflection of part of what's wrong.
Great illustration.:saycheese
The upci has been raiding the aljc for a few years anyhow. It's easier to raid an organization than start a fresh work from scratch.
Here's a new spin on the whole TV thing.
I'm hearing of many ALJC ministers and independants that are coming into the UPC or at least considering it, including officials of other organizations...
Several ALJC ministers joined the UPC over the last few years even with the TV restriction. They said that more would join but the prohibition on TV had kept several from joining....now that this resolution has passed many are coming in!
One district official in the ALJC told me he had already handled several ministers request to drop license and join the UPC...
In a few years when we look back at this time in Apostolic History, numericaly it might come out to be a wash.... 200 leave, 200 join.......we'll see.
ChicagoPastor
10-08-2007, 08:48 AM
The upci has been raiding the aljc for a few years anyhow. It's easier to raid an organization than start a fresh work from scratch.
Ok so the UPC is raiding the ALJC
but what Booker and Godair and all these other ultra cons are doing and going to do (phone calls, mailers, emails) that will be ok??
The UPC does not openly invite aljc ministers to join, they've just been joining
BoredOutOfMyMind
10-08-2007, 08:50 AM
??ALJC ministers?
i don't get it.
Newly licensed former ALJC...
Is that easier. :gclock
Tv1a - You are as caustic as ever. :poloroid
Steve Epley
10-08-2007, 08:52 AM
Maybe the IMA-AWCF-Global might join????????????????????
Counting noses doesn't tell the tale.\
When you lose men of the caliber of some of those who are leaving, you don't replace them by just licensing some other guy.
This time it isn't some radical fringe leaving.
Many of these are solid men.
I dont know if it was inteneded but this sure seems like a low blow.
the only thing this current upheaval can be compared to is the 1992 AS resolution that led to the withdrawal of quite a few men.
Then as now, those that left were men of high caliber.
Many of those that left as fall out from 1992 were not "radical fringe" people. MANY were solid men who had helped build the UPCI from its earliest days.
ChicagoPastor
10-08-2007, 08:57 AM
Point is NO ONE is ireplaceable
It's too bad some have decided to leave us but others will step in or step up.
Everyone spoke of the forthcoming demise of the UPC prior to Conference in '92...didn't happen. It won't happen this time either.
Steve Epley
10-08-2007, 08:57 AM
I dont know if it was inteneded but this sure seems like a low blow.
the only thing this current upheaval can be compared to is the 1992 AS resolution that led to the withdrawal of quite a few men.
Then as now, those that left were men of high caliber.
Many of those that left as fall out from 1992 were not "radical fringe" people. MANY were solid men who had helped build the UPCI from its earliest days.
That did NOT believe the new birth they might feel at home this could could be the NEXT move backwards.
I dont know if it was inteneded but this sure seems like a low blow.
the only thing this current upheaval can be compared to is the 1992 AS resolution that led to the withdrawal of quite a few men.
Then as now, those that left were men of high caliber.
Many of those that left as fall out from 1992 were not "radical fringe" people. MANY were solid men who had helped build the UPCI from its earliest days.
Ferd, i wasn't even thinking of the 92 situation.
i was thinking of the accusations I have heard by some that this is just a defection of radicals and some kind of lunatic fringe.
i apologize for the unoffended offense.
Certainly men like C.H. Yadon were reputable men of character. I did not mean to impugn them.
crakjak
10-08-2007, 09:01 AM
Counting noses doesn't tell the tale.\
When you lose men of the caliber of some of those who are leaving, you don't replace them by just licensing some other guy.
This time it isn't some radical fringe leaving.
Many of these are solid men.
Solid in what? Their lack of tolerance for other men of God? Lack of love for the whole Body of Christ? Solid in their opposition of the org's vision and purpose. Solid in their own kingdom building? Solid in their control over their members lives?
Digging4Truth
10-08-2007, 09:04 AM
People leaving their orgs and jumping over to the UPC because the TV thing passed?
That doesn't make sense.
The only way that makes any sense is if they are doing it because they see the current (if it is true) UPC bailout as an opportunity to jump on board the UPC at a time that they have some chance of steering the org in a direction equal to their particular agenda.
Does ALJC forbid tv advertising?
Steve Epley
10-08-2007, 09:08 AM
People leaving their orgs and jumping over to the UPC because the TV thing passed?
That doesn't make sense.
The only way that makes any sense is if they are doing it because they see the current (if it is true) UPC bailout as an opportunity to jump on board the UPC at a time that they have some chance of steering the org in a direction equal to their particular agenda.
Does ALJC forbid tv advertising?
They have NO stand about television period.
Rhymis
10-08-2007, 09:09 AM
Nature abhors a vacuum -- even if it's a tube. :)
Ferd, i wasn't even thinking of the 92 situation.
i was thinking of the accusations I have heard by some that this is just a defection of radicals and some kind of lunatic fringe.
i apologize for the unoffended offense.
Certainly men like C.H. Yadon were reputable men of character. I did not mean to impugn them.
I appreciate you setting the record straight. I have a lot of respect for many of the men leaving now as well as those who left 15 years ago.
That did NOT believe the new birth they might feel at home this could could be the NEXT move backwards.
Brother Epley, if these were AMF guys, then your comment would be very important to the topic. They are not however. The UPCI was formed by men who believed as you and I do in the Water Spirit doctrine, but it also had an element that belived differently.
If it is a move backwards, it is a move back to what it once was.
Solid in what? Their lack of tolerance for other men of God? Lack of love for the whole Body of Christ? Solid in their opposition of the org's vision and purpose. Solid in their own kingdom building? Solid in their control over their members lives?
Solid in doctrine, character, integrity.
Church builders, mentors of young men, men with vision and passion.
Lovers of Truth.
BrotherEastman
10-08-2007, 09:16 AM
I think what is going to happen in the UPC is going to be similar to what happens sometimes in the sports world. Some sports star leaves their team and everyone gets upset about it, the fans get mad at the team, criticize management, talk about how the team is going to be worse off and THEN the guys' backup steps in and shows that he's just as good or better.
i.e. Indianapoli Colts......E. James left....Addaih steps up
McNabb goes down, Garcia steps up
need I bring up Bledsoe and Brady? Bledsoe and Romo?
Griese and Grossman......lol ok that was a bad example but you get my drift.
The UPC is still an organization of men and women that are trying to reach the world with the gospel, it still is a mission's minded organization and that pleases God. IMO God's not gonna let this ship sink....nor is it even close to sinking anyhow
Hey listen, Being from Indianapolis I appreciate the 'anaology', but I really hate to see some really great men of God leaving the UPC.
Boom I can count 3 former aljc churches within a two hour drive who made the switch to upci. Each city has an established upci work. In WV town near where I live, a preacher turned in his upci license because of a dispute with pastor. He began to go to the aljc church (5 minutes from the original upci work, and 10 minutes from the original aljc church.) When this guy because pastor, all of a sudden he was given a license and now the church is upci... I have friends who pastor about a nearby town. An UPCI church was established. The ALJC affiliated chruch had a few hundred members. They ALJC church switched affiliations a few years ago.
How can one morally claim success when they raid another organization?
I wonder if the foreign constituency is included in the head count. Comparing apples to apples, The numbers aren't as elaborate as they are portrayed to be. Sometimes the process is like handling out medical licenses to thrid world doctors. The process is compromised for the sake of statistics.
It's like the church about 25 miles from where I live. They have seen a good percentage of church growth. 99% of their growth comes from disgruntled saints from our church. That's not church growth. The upci
Newly licensed former ALJC...
Is that easier. :gclock
Tv1a - You are as caustic as ever. :poloroid
ChicagoPastor
10-08-2007, 09:18 AM
People leaving their orgs and jumping over to the UPC because the TV thing passed?
That doesn't make sense.
The only way that makes any sense is if they are doing it because they see the current (if it is true) UPC bailout as an opportunity to jump on board the UPC at a time that they have some chance of steering the org in a direction equal to their particular agenda.
Does ALJC forbid tv advertising?
The ALJC has been losing ministers to the UPC and independant ranks for years.
Yes, they do allow TV.
One of the reasons more have not come our way is because of the UPC's prohibition on TV, now that it is lifted many have and will be coming in.
I echo your sentiments. Maybe for different reasons. This boat is big enough for everybody.
Hey listen, Being from Indianapolis I appreciate the 'anaology', but I really hate to see some really great men of God leaving the UPC.
I dont know if it was inteneded but this sure seems like a low blow.
the only thing this current upheaval can be compared to is the 1992 AS resolution that led to the withdrawal of quite a few men.
Then as now, those that left were men of high caliber.
Many of those that left as fall out from 1992 were not "radical fringe" people. MANY were solid men who had helped build the UPCI from its earliest days.
I caught that little slam also. I hope the inference that you and I picked up on was not intentional.
ChicagoPastor
10-08-2007, 09:20 AM
Hey listen, Being from Indianapolis I appreciate the 'anaology', but I really hate to see some really great men of God leaving the UPC.
OF COURSE! as do I. I hate to see some leave, but the UPC will survive....
who knows who will step up and replace some of the men that are leaving...
The ALJC infrastructure needs rehauled, but it's not as bad as people make it to be.
The ALJC has been losing ministers to the UPC and independant ranks for years.
Yes, they do allow TV.
One of the reasons more have not come our way is because of the UPC's prohibition on TV, now that it is lifted many have and will be coming in.
I caught that little slam also. I hope the inference that you and I picked up on was not intentional.
Originally Posted by Amos
Counting noses doesn't tell the tale.\
When you lose men of the caliber of some of those who are leaving, you don't replace them by just licensing some other guy.
This time it isn't some radical fringe leaving.
Many of these are solid men.
bump
Steve Epley
10-08-2007, 09:21 AM
Brother Epley, if these were AMF guys, then your comment would be very important to the topic. They are not however. The UPCI was formed by men who believed as you and I do in the Water Spirit doctrine, but it also had an element that belived differently.
If it is a move backwards, it is a move back to what it once was.
That is what I was saying maybe poorly but that was the point. These men left in 92 over the new birth they never believed. Thus many feel that is the direction the UPC is headed back to the 'merger agreement' where the message of salvation is not clearly defined or embraced. Many of those from the 92 defection maintain very little of what they maintained before they left.
The detractors seem to be more in tune with Billy Graham than those they preached with for years? I fear this will happen to the UPC. The talk about bridge buidling a few years ago. More than television advertising is in play here I am afraid. I hope I am wrong I do NOT want to be correct but it is a shared feeling among many UPC men that I know.
Rhymis
10-08-2007, 09:22 AM
Playing musical organizations again I see.
That is what I was saying maybe poorly but that was the point. These men left in 92 over the new birth they never believed. Thus many feel that is the direction the UPC is headed back to the 'merger agreement' where the message of salvation is not clearly defined or embraced. Many of those from the 92 defection maintain very little of what they maintained before they left.
The detractors seem to be more in tune with Billy Graham than those they preached with for years? I fear this will happen to the UPC. The talk about bridge buidling a few years ago. More than television advertising is in play here I am afraid. I hope I am wrong I do NOT want to be correct but it is a shared feeling among many UPC men that I know.
well, I dont want to see the UPCI pick up men who left what they believed when they left the UPCI. but I dont have a problem with the UPCI allowing room for those with the PCI view that existed in the UPCI from Day one.
Digging4Truth
10-08-2007, 09:30 AM
They have NO stand about television period.
That was my assumption.
Knowing that my original statement stands... I don't see what the reason would be for some large migration to the UPC from ALJC unless it were for the purposes of making an attempt to steer the UPC in a particular direction after an exodus of the more conservative element.
Here's a new spin on the whole TV thing.
I'm hearing of many ALJC ministers and independants that are coming into the UPC or at least considering it, including officials of other organizations...
Several ALJC ministers joined the UPC over the last few years even with the TV restriction. They said that more would join but the prohibition on TV had kept several from joining....now that this resolution has passed many are coming in!
One district official in the ALJC told me he had already handled several ministers request to drop license and join the UPC...
In a few years when we look back at this time in Apostolic History, numericaly it might come out to be a wash.... 200 leave, 200 join.......we'll see.
Apostolic History!
Steve Epley
10-08-2007, 09:32 AM
well, I dont want to see the UPCI pick up men who left what they believed when they left the UPCI. but I dont have a problem with the UPCI allowing room for those with the PCI view that existed in the UPCI from Day one.
Ferd I think that is the major problem here. The men leaving would NOT accept that period. So this is really the issue it is much more than television advertizing. In this day and time the conservatives would not belong to a group that allowed two different views on being saved.
Hoovie
10-08-2007, 09:54 AM
Here's a new spin on the whole TV thing.
I'm hearing of many ALJC ministers and independants that are coming into the UPC or at least considering it, including officials of other organizations...
Several ALJC ministers joined the UPC over the last few years even with the TV restriction. They said that more would join but the prohibition on TV had kept several from joining....now that this resolution has passed many are coming in!
One district official in the ALJC told me he had already handled several ministers request to drop license and join the UPC...
In a few years when we look back at this time in Apostolic History, numericaly it might come out to be a wash.... 200 leave, 200 join.......we'll see.
Historically it will not be a wash IMO. They will gain many in number as they shed the image of legalism.
Ferd I think that is the major problem here. The men leaving would NOT accept that period. So this is really the issue it is much more than television advertizing. In this day and time the conservatives would not belong to a group that allowed two different views on being saved.
Agreed. the conservitives that are leaving need to. They need to create something they can be a part of and be dynamic and do the work they are called to.
The UPCI needs to be able to move forward as well.
The problem has been that these two groups have very different goals. It was time for a split. and I dont think it is a bad thing.
StillStanding
10-08-2007, 10:09 AM
Historically it will not be a wash IMO. They will gain many in number as they shed the image of legalism.
I agree with you totally! Addition by subtraction! :)
stmatthew
10-08-2007, 02:25 PM
The ALJC has been losing ministers to the UPC and independant ranks for years.
Yes, they do allow TV.
One of the reasons more have not come our way is because of the UPC's prohibition on TV, now that it is lifted many have and will be coming in.
I have a question, and am just using this post to launch from, so it is not really aimed at CP.
The UPCI, while having opened up advertising on tv, still had a ban on tv's in licensed ministers homes. And all video allowed is for wholesome, and educations, and preaching type video's.
So my question is.... these ALJC ministers that are coming over to the UPCI, are they being expected to adhere to the bylaws, or are they just continuing to be allowed to have their satellite and cable tv?? I know that it is just about a moot point anymore, but thought I would ask anyway.
Sandra
10-08-2007, 02:26 PM
Here's a new spin on the whole TV thing.
I'm hearing of many ALJC ministers and independants that are coming into the UPC or at least considering it, including officials of other organizations...
Several ALJC ministers joined the UPC over the last few years even with the TV restriction. They said that more would join but the prohibition on TV had kept several from joining....now that this resolution has passed many are coming in!
One district official in the ALJC told me he had already handled several ministers request to drop license and join the UPC...
In a few years when we look back at this time in Apostolic History, numericaly it might come out to be a wash.... 200 leave, 200 join.......we'll see.
I heard the same thing...... ya lose some ya win some!!
nwlife
10-08-2007, 03:25 PM
I have a question, and am just using this post to launch from, so it is not really aimed at CP.
The UPCI, while having opened up advertising on tv, still had a ban on tv's in licensed ministers homes. And all video allowed is for wholesome, and educations, and preaching type video's.
So my question is.... these ALJC ministers that are coming over to the UPCI, are they being expected to adhere to the bylaws, or are they just continuing to be allowed to have their satellite and cable tv?? I know that it is just about a moot point anymore, but thought I would ask anyway.
either that or there is going to be some good deals at a garage sale! :killinme
SoCaliUPC
10-08-2007, 06:31 PM
I wonder how Resolution #3 will affect all this.
Newly licensed ALJC ministers no longer can have certain men in their pulpits....
....unless they have the okay from the district board.
pelathais
10-08-2007, 06:47 PM
Comparing the UPC to a sports team and preachers to star athletes is a reflection of part of what's wrong.
Great illustration.:saycheese
I know you have to say that out loud, Amos. But privately, you wanna talk basketball or football? I've been to the same parties with some of the same men as you. I know the game - basketball or football? :saycheese
ChicagoPastor
10-08-2007, 07:48 PM
I have a question, and am just using this post to launch from, so it is not really aimed at CP.
The UPCI, while having opened up advertising on tv, still had a ban on tv's in licensed ministers homes. And all video allowed is for wholesome, and educations, and preaching type video's.
So my question is.... these ALJC ministers that are coming over to the UPCI, are they being expected to adhere to the bylaws, or are they just continuing to be allowed to have their satellite and cable tv?? I know that it is just about a moot point anymore, but thought I would ask anyway.
good question.
well as you said it's moot point.
the application for license still asks if you have a TV in your home but I've had district officials tell me and others that all you do is move the TV to your garage for the day and you can answer the question honestly :) no joke.
I don't know.....this is why I said that the passing of resolution 4 is the beginning of the end of removing all prohibitions on TV and write a new resolution speaking about the evils found on all mediums rather than just single out TV
Sherri
10-08-2007, 08:11 PM
good question.
well as you said it's moot point.
the application for license still asks if you have a TV in your home but I've had district officials tell me and others that all you do is move the TV to your garage for the day and you can answer the question honestly :) no joke.
I don't know.....this is why I said that the passing of resolution 4 is the beginning of the end of removing all prohibitions on TV and write a new resolution speaking about the evils found on all mediums rather than just single out TV
Doesn't anyone see this as Phariseeical ("letter of the law")? I think this stuff just makes hypocrites out of good men.
FRINGE_NUTTER
10-08-2007, 08:14 PM
Doesn't anyone see this as Phariseeical ("letter of the law")? I think this stuff just makes hypocrites out of good men.
Are they really "good men" if they are lying about it/hypocrites?
Sherri
10-08-2007, 08:15 PM
Are they really "good men" if they are lying about it/hypocrites?
I think most of them are good men at heart, but these kinds of things make me ill. It's just so much inconsistency!
FRINGE_NUTTER
10-08-2007, 08:18 PM
I think most of them are good men at heart, but these kinds of things make me ill. It's just so much inconsistency!
Yep. Some of 'em want to do right, but politics makes 'em do wrong. I guess. The need to be part of the org. is more important than the need to please God. imho.
stmatthew
10-08-2007, 08:58 PM
Doesn't anyone see this as Phariseeical ("letter of the law")? I think this stuff just makes hypocrites out of good men.
I'm glad you pointed this out so I don't have to. :)
Steve Epley
10-08-2007, 09:01 PM
I'm glad you pointed this out so I don't have to. :)
I know at least 2 ALJC guys that joined who have televisions I don't know how they got around it but evidently they did however it has not been much of an issue in that district for years.
preachtruth1ness
10-08-2007, 09:09 PM
:hypercoffee This feels like 1992 the year of Spring, Tx -- I remember when we lost some great men back then. We kept right on preaching the truth and building churches. I agree we win some and we drop some. I have friends in the ALJC and that group will keep moving forward as well. For the past 40 years we have seen these kind of corrections and it has made us stronger.
Felicity
10-08-2007, 09:33 PM
Might as well face it folks! The UPCI will never be what it has been. It's changing and evolving and not all the changes have been bad ---- or good either. Like most everything else in life I guess.
And it will continue to change as time goes on.
It's important for the leadership to keep the focus where it needs to be in regard to doctrine, holiness and the reasons for its existence are concerned.
Where the UPC shines the brightest and where and when it does the best is when the mission statement - namely "the whole gospel to the whole world" - remains steadily the raison d'etre.
Standards are going to change as they relate to outward dress/holiness and how we relate and get involved in the world around us. For those who are older and getting older it can be hard to deal with - no doubt about it.
This younger generation needs the older! If the older conservatives leave, where does that leave the younger?!!
Bad move for those with a more conservative mindset to go running off because they're doing the younger generation a dis-service. That's one way to look at it anyhow, and another good reason for the more conservative element to stay put.
Dontcha think? :)
Might as well face it folks! The UPCI will never be what it has been. It's changing and evolving and not all the changes have been bad ---- or good either. Like most everything else in life I guess.
And it will continue to change as time goes on.
It's important for the leadership to keep the focus where it needs to be in regard to doctrine, holiness and the reasons for its existence are concerned.
Where the UPC shines the brightest and where and when it does the best is when the mission statement - namely "the whole gospel to the whole world" - remains steadily the raison d'etre.
Standards are going to change as they relate to outward dress/holiness and how we relate and get involved in the world around us. For those who are older and getting older it can be hard to deal with - no doubt about it.
This younger generation needs the older! If the older conservatives leave, where does that leave the younger?!!
Bad move for those with a more conservative mindset to go running off because they're doing the younger generation a dis-service. That's one way to look at it anyhow, and another good reason for the more conservative element to stay put.
Dontcha think? :)
That's what I've been saying...
StillStanding
10-09-2007, 08:23 AM
Might as well face it folks! The UPCI will never be what it has been. It's changing and evolving and not all the changes have been bad ---- or good either. Like most everything else in life I guess.
And it will continue to change as time goes on.
It's important for the leadership to keep the focus where it needs to be in regard to doctrine, holiness and the reasons for its existence are concerned.
Where the UPC shines the brightest and where and when it does the best is when the mission statement - namely "the whole gospel to the whole world" - remains steadily the raison d'etre.
Standards are going to change as they relate to outward dress/holiness and how we relate and get involved in the world around us. For those who are older and getting older it can be hard to deal with - no doubt about it.
This younger generation needs the older! If the older conservatives leave, where does that leave the younger?!!
Bad move for those with a more conservative mindset to go running off because they're doing the younger generation a dis-service. That's one way to look at it anyhow, and another good reason for the more conservative element to stay put.
Dontcha think? :)
That's what I've been saying...
I find it disturbing that some are making light of some in the UPCI reaching out to those that are threatening to leave and asking them to stay.
I believe that it is a godly attitude to ask UCs to stick around for balance.
I also believe that the long term effects of this schism on the UPCI will be positive! Time will tell! :)
Kansas Preacher
10-09-2007, 09:16 AM
Might as well face it folks! The UPCI will never be what it has been. It's changing and evolving and not all the changes have been bad ---- or good either. Like most everything else in life I guess.
And it will continue to change as time goes on.
It's important for the leadership to keep the focus where it needs to be in regard to doctrine, holiness and the reasons for its existence are concerned.
Where the UPC shines the brightest and where and when it does the best is when the mission statement - namely "the whole gospel to the whole world" - remains steadily the raison d'etre.
Standards are going to change as they relate to outward dress/holiness and how we relate and get involved in the world around us. For those who are older and getting older it can be hard to deal with - no doubt about it.
This younger generation needs the older! If the older conservatives leave, where does that leave the younger?!!
Bad move for those with a more conservative mindset to go running off because they're doing the younger generation a dis-service. That's one way to look at it anyhow, and another good reason for the more conservative element to stay put.
Dontcha think? :)
I understand what you are saying, but if you mean literal "older conservatives" (as in their physical age), most of them are NOT leaving. They still dream of the UPC being "what it was" in their heyday. I've spoken with some of them. They are saying, "Don't leave. Stay in and we'll change it from the inside."
One very real factor for some of these men is that they cannot get life insurance anywhere else. The $10,000 policy that comes with their license is all they have. If they get out, no one wants to insure them (at least, not in reasonable dollars).
The "older conservatives" probably won't leave. It's the middle-aged and younger conservatives that will be pulling out. At least, that's my guess.
Esther
10-09-2007, 09:27 AM
I understand what you are saying, but if you mean literal "older conservatives" (as in their physical age), most of them are NOT leaving. They still dream of the UPC being "what it was" in their heyday. I've spoken with some of them. They are saying, "Don't leave. Stay in and we'll change it from the inside."
One very real factor for some of these men is that they cannot get life insurance anywhere else. The $10,000 policy that comes with their license is all they have. If they get out, no one wants to insure them (at least, not in reasonable dollars).
The "older conservatives" probably won't leave. It's the middle-aged and younger conservatives that will be pulling out. At least, that's my guess.
Are the younger as conservative as the older generation?
Kansas Preacher
10-09-2007, 09:29 AM
Are the younger as conservative as the older generation?
Some are. In fact, I know some young men who are MORE conservative than some of the "old timers." Youth does not ALWAYS equate with liberalism.
Trouvere
10-09-2007, 09:35 AM
Some are. In fact, I know some young men who are MORE conservative than some of the "old timers." Youth does not ALWAYS equate with liberalism.
I agree.I have met all kinds.You have to pray and wait.I have also met younger ministers who were so lacking wisdom but not lacking boldness.
Time has a way of proving things.
mizpeh
10-09-2007, 09:36 AM
Some are. In fact, I know some young men who are MORE conservative than some of the "old timers." Youth does not ALWAYS equate with liberalism.
Sometimes youth equates to with zeal without wisdom.
mizpeh
10-09-2007, 09:37 AM
I agree.I have met all kinds.You have to pray and wait.I have also met younger ministers who were so lacking wisdom but not lacking boldness.
Time has a way of proving things.
LOL we were thinking along the same lines! :) The younger ones tend to mellow out with age. They also eventually question the things they've been taught to see if it checks out with the word of God.
Trouvere
10-09-2007, 09:39 AM
Might as well face it folks! The UPCI will never be what it has been. It's changing and evolving and not all the changes have been bad ---- or good either. Like most everything else in life I guess.
And it will continue to change as time goes on.
It's important for the leadership to keep the focus where it needs to be in regard to doctrine, holiness and the reasons for its existence are concerned.
Where the UPC shines the brightest and where and when it does the best is when the mission statement - namely "the whole gospel to the whole world" - remains steadily the raison d'etre.
Standards are going to change as they relate to outward dress/holiness and how we relate and get involved in the world around us. For those who are older and getting older it can be hard to deal with - no doubt about it.
This younger generation needs the older! If the older conservatives leave, where does that leave the younger?!!
Bad move for those with a more conservative mindset to go running off because they're doing the younger generation a dis-service. That's one way to look at it anyhow, and another good reason for the more conservative element to stay put.
Dontcha think? :)
Sister Felicity for some of us standards that relate to outward dress/holiness have long been settled and aren't going to change.That is like saying that the world is finally going to permeate the church and it won't be any different and everyone should just stop trying to please God because sooner or later its all going to be the same.Apostolic Doctrine does not evolve.The period of time when it was disregarded is known as the Dark Ages.
ChicagoPastor
10-09-2007, 12:15 PM
Are the younger as conservative as the older generation?
Some are some aren't.
I don't think you can tell either way...
I have many friends under 40 who are more liberal minded in their thinking...
I have a cousin who is 21, just graduated from Bible School and is VERY conservative....I was surprised when he told me how conservative he is.
Felicity
10-09-2007, 12:19 PM
I understand what you are saying, but if you mean literal "older conservatives" (as in their physical age), most of them are NOT leaving. They still dream of the UPC being "what it was" in their heyday. I've spoken with some of them. They are saying, "Don't leave. Stay in and we'll change it from the inside."
One very real factor for some of these men is that they cannot get life insurance anywhere else. The $10,000 policy that comes with their license is all they have. If they get out, no one wants to insure them (at least, not in reasonable dollars).
The "older conservatives" probably won't leave. It's the middle-aged and younger conservatives that will be pulling out. At least, that's my guess.I've heard this having been stated before - that there are many young men who are very conservative and want that kind of lifestyle and consecration.
I can only say 'kudos' to them. Who can help but admire young men and women committed to godliness and holiness in such an ungodly and unholy generation.
I get what you're saying about older conservatives and can fully understand why they would be reluctant to leave what is dear and familiar, warts and all. Young men don't have so much to lose.
Thank you for your thoughts, sir. I appreciate you sharing them.
Felicity
10-09-2007, 12:24 PM
I've heard this having been stated before - that there are many young men who are very conservative and want that kind of lifestyle and consecration.
I can only say 'kudos' to them. Who can help but admire young men and women committed to godliness and holiness in such an ungodly and unholy generation.
I get what you're saying about older conservatives and can fully understand why they would be reluctant to leave what is dear and familiar, warts and all. Young men don't have so much to lose.
Thank you for your thoughts, sir. I appreciate you sharing them.Just went back and read my original post.
What I actually had in my mind when I said "older conservatives" was more in regard to example, mentoring and wisdom to be passed on to the younger generation.
I wasn't thinking so much of "age" as in numbers.
If those who have that ability to mentor, to live as an example and witness and pass on their wisdom and important valuable experience then to me the younger generation suffers loss.
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