Water/Spirit
 

No the first time I heard someone explain John 3:5 as not being about baptism it actually made sense to me. I feel like you have to bring a lot of baggage with you to get baptism out of that passage. So I kicked the W/S doctrine first.


When Jesus explains it he compares a natural birth to a spiritual birth...that which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Water = natural birth
Spirit = spiritual birth

(but that's a separate thread)

Re: Your experience when you dropped "dress standa
 

Exactly and when I saw that, it made so much sense to me! :bliss

Re: Your experience when you dropped "dress standa
 

No I get it, was just wondering if you believe people should be baptized in water.

Re: Your experience when you dropped "dress standa
 

Yes, I suppose never thought of baptizing someone in anything else. But I certainly don't point to John 3:5 for that.

Re: Your experience when you dropped "dress standa
 

Let me rephrase my question. Do you believe in water baptism?

Re: Your experience when you dropped "dress standa
 

No I believe in Jesus Christ, but I think those that believe in Jesus Christ will be baptized.

Re: Your experience when you dropped "dress standa
 

Seems silly for Jesus to say; 'In order to get to heaven you first have to be born... and then you have to be born again. But first.. gotta make sure you're born.. if you aren't born you don't stand a chance of getting into heaven.

DUH.

But that scripture aside, there are pleanty others for Water and Spirit.

Indeed, another thread.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

I don't mind my post being moved... but Ferd did ask the question on the previous thread... about if people dropped the w/s doctrine before or after dropping standards... So some of the above posts were actually answering Ferd's question.

Not sure if that means anything.. Ferd may wonder why no one answered if he reads the other thread only.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

No, see that's where we bring baggage.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jesus says born again.

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Nicodemus answers another natural birth?

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus then distinguishes between the first birth (water) and the second (spirit)

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Then He talks just about the spirit birth.

We bring baptism to this passage and insert born again of water, that's not what He said.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Ferd's question is a part of this thread now too.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Thanks for moving these.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Still doesn't make a pile of sense, if he meant you had to first be born.

Nevertheless, there is much more in scripture that points to the importance of obeying baptism.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

I feel kind of stupid now that it has been explained so well.

Re: Your experience when you dropped "dress standa
 

He was responding to the question of Nicodemus.
This was the original Nick at Night.
Nick had asked how a person could be born again? could the person enter into the mother's womb and be born a second time?
Jesus explained that there are two births.
The first is the birth of our flesh person and the second is the birth of our spirit person. The first is of water and the second is of Spirit. The first puts us into the human family and the second puts us into the heavenly family. The first birth is from our earthly parent and the second birth is from our heavenly parent.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

I'm not telling anybody what to believe but this passage makes no reference to baptism and unless you force that understanding onto it, it makes perfect sense. Why would Jesus move on to talking about one born of the spirit and not of the water and spirit in the next verse if he meant for them to be baptized and receive the HG? The Water/Spirit explanation is not consistent with the passage.

Re: Your experience when you dropped "dress standa
 

Yea, what he said.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Verse 3 says that one needs to be born again to even see the Kingdom.
Verse a question by Nicodemus as he was just looking at the natural.
How do we do it?
Verse 5 he says that if one doesn't get born of "water" & "Spirit" he can not enter the Kingdom.

Why would he state that unless one was born "naturally" & then born of the "Spirit" it would be redundant unless the being born of water relates to Water Baptism?

Makes sense when one looks at Water Spirit being water baptism & Spirit Baptism.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

See post #14

Re: Water/Spirit
 

I know. I was typing my post when she posted.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

I think you are being deliberately obtuse. I know John 3:5 is not talking about water baptism. Very plain to see.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Amen!

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Maybe I am just dense, did I not answer the question you asked? I thought I did but if not throw it at me again maybe I will get it this time.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

arrrrghhhhhh, you are just like one of my sons. Sheesh, I guess that's why I like you so much, go figure. Nah, I'm done, it's all good. I told you I got it. And then I got the second part too, after I posted that last post.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

So I am like a son to you? Nice.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

It makes all the sense in the world. Often times OPs read this verse and they hear it and see it as the OP preacher explains. Once a person can get beyond seeing things in scripture by just how the pastor preaches it then they will be farther along. Of course it is important to be baptized no one is arguing that is remedial.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

I have no problem with anyone who views the John 3 verses that way. (natural and spiritual birth) There is plenty in the Word that tells us how important baptism is.
It's been debated a "few" times now on this forum.
I don't personally see why Jesus would say to get into the Kingdom you have to first be born, then you have to be born again.
To me, that's obvious...

This scripture isn't a huge deal to me.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Oftentimes it is just seeing it as it is meant to be seen.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water & Spirit Baptism.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Watch out, whom she loveth, she beateth.
Where's that stick granny?

Re: Water/Spirit
 

It is though, very plain.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Is being born again the same as getting saved? If so take note of the way the Apostles preached for men to be saved.

See if you can find water and spirit in these places where SALVATION is preached.

38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

14: Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17: Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. Acts 8:14-17

44: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46: For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:10:44-48

4: Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5: When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 19:4-6

The Apostles always seem to mention water and spirit when preaching how to get saved. And it always points us to them being baptized in water and receiving the spirit.

I have never embraced the outward standards. The standard that Oneness teaches I do embrace is Repentance, water baptism, the Holy Spirit baptism is the new birth.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

You said it yourself seeing how it was intended....not W/S. I agree with Baron it takes alot of baggage to get W/S out of this. Anyone that sees W/S out of this it is probably because that is what they were taught. Like I said they hear the voice of the pastor or another preacher talking about this. I am serious if a person can read this without the OP rosey glasses they will see it is plainly not talking W/S.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

That's how I see it. Plainly. But the arguments that I only am seeing what I want to see, or what I've been taught, don't describe me.

There are too many other scriptures.
If someone throws out W/S solely because they see John 3:3 a little differently than before, they aren't reading the same Bible I have.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Go Sox!!!! We agree on more than one thing!

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Yes, in the context of several other verses, one sentence by itself can rarely be understood. Isolating a verse and reading into it your own preconceived ideas is called Isogesis.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

And yet Peter's very next sermon is ignored.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Re: Water/Spirit
 

It does seem to describe you based on your rebuttles. I do not know you personally, but I am just giving my opinion. You say there are other W/S verses give me some that actually say that. I know most of what OP' use and most of them are not accurate. Michael gave some, but what I gather from reading these are that the response to the gospel was baptism and many received the HG, but there is no inferrence that W/S was salvation.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Thing that most of these guys on here don't realize is this, I never take any ones word on Scripture-alone.

I search it out.

However, to see that in the context of this Scripture and say unless you are alive and get Spirit born--doesn't make sense, just for that scripture alone.

If that is what God intended, then he would have just said, "unless you are born of the Spirit."

Re: Water/Spirit
 

good words Baron

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Not true. Jesus said you must be born AGAIN. Nick asked how and Jesus told him. First you have to be naturally born and then spiritually born. By the way no mention of tongues here either.

Re: Water/Spirit
 

Taking verses and twisting them into something else as a lot of those who try to dispute W/S Doctrine is called wresting the scriptures.