UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

There is often a case made (here and otherwise) that the UPC is chasing away or at least repelling that half of humanity known as the female sex. I remember when Robert Sabin was doing his public remake, that he made the case as well.

So here is my question; If we are, in fact, repelling the females, and in turn denying them the message of Christ and him crucified, then why are there such a disproportionate amount of women in the UPC pews?

I could never understand this. Furthermore, it is my observation that many women will testify how they are drawn to a simpler lifestyle at least somewhat apart of the trappings of style and fashion.

This leads me to question the charge of the UPC repelling women.

What do you think??

PS
This is not a standards thread! Please take your pro/con arguments elsewhere.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I think the answer is complicated. I think some women are indeed drawn to a simpler lifestyle without the trappings of fashion etc. Of course, the UPC practices a great deal of fashion....but that's kind of off the subject. On the flip side, after the simpler lifestyle is seen and practiced, women often notice the tip in the scales where women live more "simply" and men simply don't. It's often a double standard.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Nope. They are not leaving, just becoming more stubborn, lol. We have women in our church who have told our pastor; "I respect you because you are our pastor and friend in Christ. But I am gonna live by my convictions regardless of what you signed or what org this church is affiliated with."

And the women who take that stand are outstanding members of our body.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Right Scotty - I know several like that as well.

A little backbone and self determination can be a good thing.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Well Steve, in light of the two highlighted portions I can only answer Yes, especially new converts.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Well that should be good for increasing the membership of your church. :santathumb

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Fair enough. So then there would be an influx of women if further adjustments were made regarding standards??

I think at some point we need to seriously consider the lawfulness of multiple wives then, because the men are already outnumbered.:gotcha

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

:couch:bolt:covereyes

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

On another note... the UPC has more female licensed ministers than the Southern Baptists with their 16,000,000 US constituents...

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I think when a modern 20 to 40 year old women visits one of our churches that displays our laws on the backs ( and heads) of our women they see a legalistic or even cultic society and often do not return for another visit.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

OK, then a disproportionate number of older females are in our pews??

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

yes, and mainly 2nd and 3rd generation OP's We are missing "new" women.

Women who would be in love with Jesus, but can't see the forrest for the trees.

Our standards are a stubling block we throw in front of peopel trying to find there way to Jesus.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I think three things:

1) I don't think this is JUST a UPC thing. I think that if you look in most churches today, you will find a disproportionate amount of women vs. men. Not all, but most

2) I know this won't be a popular opinion and I may take some flak for saying it. But I really do think that in SOME cases, there are pastors who are very bold leaders. Sometimes very charismatic individuals. Sometimes just tyrants. Either way, it is unfortunately, too easy for people, especially women, to be sucked in under the leadership of just such an individual. It's almost as if they come, check things out and before they know it, they are mired in quicksand and can't figure out how to think for themselves so they can make their own choices. Sadly, for some women, it is very easy to intimidate them. Just tell them, "You have to follow me because that's what the Bible says and you sure don't want to go to Hell." and they will follow you to the ends of the earth.

3) The other reason I have known women to stay at a church is because they are so infatuated with the pastor they couldn't consider leaving. He dresses nice, combs his hair nice, smells nice, leads by making them feel like they are indispensible........... Who would want to leave that?

Now please don't think that I am saying that ALL women who go to a UPC church fall into any of these categories. NOT AT ALL!!! I believe there are also women who are very sincere in their love for the Lord and their walk with Him. And they truly believe that living the lifestyle called for in the UPC is what it takes to please the Lord. And that is their highest desire in life. Those women I honor. They are following their own convictions and walking their own walk with the Lord.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I hear this, but again, what about the numbers? It would stand to reason if there were many older widows tweaking the outcome... but I would dare say in every age group women outnumber the men.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

After reading this, My wife will never go to church without me again..:gotcha

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

But the UPC is repelling them by the droves...

It matters little which category they fall in... the fact that there are more women than men disproves the myth, right?

Shouldn't we be exploring how and why we are turning men off?

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

LOL, Scotty!!

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I don't think all Southern Baptists allow and/or license women ministers.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Things that repel some will attract others, and vise versa.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

...sounds like the Southern Baptists are repelling women then...

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I simply don't believe that the UPCI is for everyone. If someone can repent of their sins, be water baptized in Jesus name, and filled with the Holy Ghost in another church where they can attend and grow in grace, even if the standards aren't as rigid as the UPCI's, I wish them all the best.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I've heard women say comments over and over like, "Isn't my pastor just the smartest man you've ever known!" or "You should listen to what Bro so-and-so said because he is so close to God, surely he knows what he's talking about".

Then I've heard men say over and over, "Who is this guy that he thinks he should tell us what we can do in our own homes!" or "This guy thinks he's way above all the rest of us" or "What makes him think he's got a direct connection to God? I can just as close to God as he is, and even closer. And I can do it even better out in the woods in the midst of nature!"

It's almost like women LIKE to have someone "above them", while men do NOT like for someone in that position because they feel looked down at then.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient!

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I came from a church where the ministry are looked up to almost like they are Jesus Himself. The ministry is supposed to lead by example as much as by their teachings but I think that this has been lost. Honor to whom honor is due doesn't mean we should worship them. I have put two pastors on a pedestal in my life, looked up to them like they were my biological fathers but I found out they are just men like me, no different.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I love my pastor he has never been rude or abusive...He preached what he felt to preach as years passed he changed his opinion about a few things...I respect him and the ole saying says, "A wise man changes his mind a fool never will..."
He is a very wise man a man of strength and character.

I have changed my opinion many times...that does not mean wishy washy sometimes as we grow older we understand things in a different light...
(Now please don´t run to CAF and say something I did not say...ha)

So I will use an example...Many years ago most holiness churches did not go to doctors in any shape form or fashion...( 50 years or so ago) When I had Raul Jr at the hospital some of my friends thought I had committed a horrible sin...One pastor told me I should have died in the faith...
Most of those same people today ALL go to doctors...Do I think they are wrong because they once preached Trust God or die (The name of the message back then) No...a thousand times no... Does going to a doctor make one less spiritual? Of course not...


Many things are traditional things, culture things…many things in time blow over...

Some things I see as never changing...

May God help us all to find balance...and a sure place in Christ Jesus.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

By the way I am not UPC..

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

What makes the women leave the UPC? Being suckered into doing Sunday school, of course! :lol

No, really, I have no idea whether this is even true that UPC women are leaving in droves- I'd need to see statistics, and then we could speculate all day long on those. I would guess... if anything, concerning the state of the affairs in the UPC is that it is fizzling, that there losing a few people (not necessarily ministers) each year. My sister would be out of the UPC if she could drive up to the indep assembly I attend, where the women don't have that uncut hair standard. I can't imagine many modern-thinking women joining the UPC though, they'd probably be women who come from rough backgrounds who need discipline in their life (same reason why women join the marines) or women from other conservative Christian backgrounds.

Stats anyone?

-Bro. Alex

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I have no idea if the UPC are growing....they sure have a lot of sweet people that belong...

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

This is going to be a hard thing for me to write. However...

I was saved, was baptized in the Holy Ghost and in Jesus' Name in a UPC church in Texas when I was in my late teens, thirty years ago. I really absorbed the UPC way of life, and took on the standards, even though I caught a lot of flak from my parents (who are rather conservative people, but don't have a problem with women wearing makeup, jewelry, slacks or cutting our hair). Because I didn't believe in baring my shoulders (wearing the "muff") my picture does not appear in my senior yearbook. My dad once offered to buy me an expensive necklace if I wanted it. I still remember it today as if it had been yesterday, and not the summer of 1978.

That said, I did leave the UPC, I did get a college degree and then a juris doctor, and in the process read quite a bit and learned quite a bit, and in the process assessed my experience, particularly insofar as the effects of conservative religion on women. And my observation is this: women seem to be hit harder by the "standards" than men in the UPC.

How can I say this?

When you have a group of UPC people, you can ALWAYS pick out the women because of the hair and clothing. The men could disappear into a crowd of conservatively-dressed guys in any large city in the USA, but the women stand out. Thing is, what I've learned and observed over the years is that in the UPC as well as other groups, women are made to "bear the burden" of modesty and holiness.

This is not merely true in Christianity, by the way, it's cross-religious. "Ultra-Orthodox Jewish and very conservative Muslim women also have rather intense standards put upon them as well by their religions. We've all seen the women who wear chadors and hijab and face veils; some Ultra-Orthodox Jewish women shave their heads and wear wigs or totally cover their hair to keep non-related males from looking at it.

And what this does, ultimately, is limit the freedom of movement of women. It's not just hair. I remember sisters in my church going through all sorts of convolutions to be able to ride a horse (wear Levis under a jeans skirt). Or, the UPC women in Alaska who wore snow pants underneath their skirts because it was cold and snowy. When you have to be concerned about your underwear showing, you can't be as active as men, and I'm sure some of you women can remember the arguments over "Pentecostal girls" [it wasn't Apostolics in those days] not "dressing out" for phys. ed. in the 1970s (although, to be perfectly honest, those thick polyester unitard things that we were forced to wear would turn anyone off from regular exercise).

As for the "more women than men" argument, I've read the same discussion regarding other conservative religious organizations. It's not just the UPC. Let me give you an example: Back in the late 90s, when I lived in Utah, I remember hearing from an anthropologist studying a polygamist group (not the FLDS) the astounding statistic that four families a week were converting to the group. She also told me that most of the families gravitating to the AUB were single mothers with children. I don't know why women would move to such a group, unless they were looking for stability and certainty. (It certainly can't have been for the financial support, since, by all accounts, polygamous men do a lousy job of it.)

So, no, I don't think this is specifically a UPC issue. I think it's an issue that affects women in conservative religious groups, across religions. And from the feminist (oh, what a dirty word) perspective, one might argue that putting the burden of the public appearance and morality on women was a result of the religion being dominated by men and by men making the rules (cf. the Manual, approved by men at meetings). Which is why the whole so-called "magic hair" issue is fascinating to me, as it appears to be women promoting it rather than men.

:tumbleweed

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

It is fascinating to me as well because I see it as an attempt by women to gain some sort of authority or power in the church and/or family. In conservative circles a woman may not be allowed to do much other than raise children and teach other younger women, but NOW she has special power and significance in the form of "holy magic hair". And since it helps to further the no-cut doctrine already held to, very few are willing to dispute it. After all, the ends justify the means.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Randy, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

When you don't have any authority in your personal life except in your home and over your children (and, if you work, maybe at your workplace), you would encourage a belief that emphasizes your home life and motherhood. Uncut hair would be something like that. It says to a woman that if she doesn't cut her hair, and is faithful in that, that God will be faithful to her and will help her when she has a problem in the areas under her authority. It has to be a very seductive doctrine. Even I, a single woman with no children (but with waist-length hair) can really resonate to the idea that "if I do this, God will honor me and heal my children." Particularly in those colorful descriptions of women taking down their hair and draping it over their children as they pray.

Also, it would give the woman a reason why she can't cut her hair to be like "the world." Not even to trim it. That would buoy up a woman's spirits, particularly on days when her hair is a tangled mess, has the death of static cling or gets caught in the car door.

Finally, it's not something a man can question her about. Because men are not supposed to have uncut (long) hair, only women. It's kind of like a female priesthood of long hair.

:tumbleweed

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I don't wish to address the issue of more women than men in all churches, I do know of one church in East Texas in which the pastor is the only man.

I have however, observed an interesting phenomenon, which has occured when some conservative Apostolic churches have given up man-made doctrines:

Mega-Churches happened.

Covenant Church in Carrollton Texas, est circa 1978, Mike Hayes had about 60 to 80 members, until they left the UPC and dropped a lot of traditions of men. They never dropped repentance, Jesus' name baptism and Holy Ghost baptism.

Today 15,000 to 20,000 members, hundred or more pastors.

Just one of many many examples. This doesn't happen in every case for any number of reasons.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I bet in these cases that prayer and fasting is one thing NOT given up though. In fact, it probably increases or at least the "quality" of it does since there is most likely more "humbleness" in the acts.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Ain't no way!!!!! :coffee2

Uh, never mind, I'm not UPC........:coffee2

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Uh, and your biological father(s)s aren't?

LOL!

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I am not a "standards person". In fact, I am probably more liberal than 99% of the people here.

but I don't believe for a minute that those churches took off and grew like they did because they gave up the standards. I think what probably happened more likely is that they grew because the people were so hungry to experience more of God that they were willing to do whatever it took. If it meant throwing out their old comfortable traditions, then so be it. And if it meant getting on their knees and seriously seeking God in prayer and fasting, then that's what they would do. If it meant getting off of their comfortable pews and reaching out to a lost and dying world, they were willing to do whatever it took to reach them. And so God honored their sincere desire to know Him better and more.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

99.9% of churches and denominations are disproportionately female.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

I was not aware of that statistic :) but assumed it was likely so. The point is... I am not so convinced that women are repelled by conservative dress standards.

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

What do you base that thought on?

Re: UPC Driving the Women Away?
 

Different train of thought, but I believe there are certain personality types that are drawn to a strict mode of living,they NEED the standards, perhaps for validation or identity.