The Church has always persecuted Fresh Moves of God
 

As I was reading SF excellent appeal for balance on both sides of the spectrum in the church. I began to reflect on Church history, I like to read church history and what God has done over the 2000+ year history of the church.

I happen as a hobby to be a student of history.

Many of you might not be aware but in almost every case, every fresh moves of God such as community renewals, out breaks of manifestations of the gifts of the spirit, power encounters that led to many conversions has always been killed because of persecution from the established church. Not from outside due to worldliness.

The established church through the lenses of its particular dogma, doctrinal interpretations became the gauge of what was acceptable and non acceptable, but in many cases through bureaucratic control and fear and intimidation it either drove out those crying for renewal or caused their voices to be silenced.

So the fear that worldliness will kill the true church is unfounded.

You might be tempted to think about the United Methodist Church or the Liberal mainline churches, but even in those cases where real renewal happened, as those revivals progressed and non-spiritual bureaucrats took control, then theological liberalism and worldliness set in.

The New Covenant church has NEVER "persecuted a move of God". If it did, it would NOT BE the New Covenant church, by definition.

What happens is God moves upon people and they begin to respond to God and the FALSE CHURCH ("synagogue of satan") persecutes the followers of God.

Also, being cautious and questioning should NOT be construed as "persecution".

Judiazers ( jews who had experienced the New Birth, but equally held to the traditions handed down to them) persecuted the church. They followed the Apostle Paul around and tried to kill everything he started.

My friend caution and overly questioning something that is bearing fruit and yet outside our limited experiences is a mask for doubt and unbelief.

So, there's no place for spiritual discernment? Are we to just accept the "holy barking" and "holy laughter" and other such strange manifestations that came out of Brownsville and Toronto? After all, they were attributed to fresh moves of God and have borne some kind of fruit.

Each influx of the Word requires "hearing", the believers' having understanding by the eyes being opened and anointed, and received by obedience. The Holy Ghost is given to them that obey Him allowing the body to go from glory to glory, from faith to faith, even as by the Spirit of the Lord in order for the body to be conformed to the image of Jesus. It is only when one thinks that they have arrived does the process become stagnant by the river flow of truth not being received; thus the words, "Woe be unto them that are at ease in Zion", God searching Jerusalem with candles and punishing all those that are settled on their lees. This is concerning the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, not the ones outside of the church. We must take heed how we hear. JMO

No and they were dealt with appropriately, Wimber kicked the Toronto church to the curb remember! We judge moves of God on the merit of the fruits not what packages that they necessarily come in.

"Persecution" may be a bit strong. I don't think that persecution is necessarily what happens in its most negative sense, but I agree with this in part and have written about it several times.

Are we guilty of it?

:aaa The "fresh moves" are indeed interesting. Most are stale warmed over latter splatter stuff from the 50's and nothing is fresh and is moving is God is moving out.

Gal 2:11
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
KJV

I think this was what Peter was doing when Paul confronted him.

Never say never....

Jerry Moon

An individual out of line is not "the Church" resisting a move of God.

Huge difference there, Rev.

The thread topic itself is incredibly problematic in proving anything, IMO.

The CHURCH: The true church would not persecute a true move of God.

ALWAYS: A very broad term that would be inaccurate.

PERSECUTED: Come on now, this word falls way short of being the right one to use. Church history is not replete with references of the CHURCH persecuting moves of God.

FRESH MOVES OF GOD: As defined by who? Ususally the one being persecuted in an attempt to justify doing what they consider a move of God.

Very astute you should get a position teaching stuff like this!:tiphat

I agree. Those who consider themselves the one and only church have difficulty beliving that God would dare to pour out His spirit upon ALL FLESH...despite denomination or perceived false doctrinal beliefs.

For this reason I know that God pours out his spirit on those hungry for more of him not those who understand the doctrine of oneness.

Blessings, Rhoni

I believe there is precedent for true believers "persecuting" the Fresh Move of the Spirit. As in Paul having to stand up to the Apostles as he pursued his ministry to the Gentiles. I don't think "synagogue of satan" would be appropriate to describe Peter and the other apostles?

Of course, there is a place for spiritual discernment, and it was not long before these excesses were discredited. The Spirit will bring correction and balance.

:tiphat Excellent post...and I agree...this is just a discussion.

Blessings, Rhoni

The true Apostolic Church has never persecuted true fresh moves of God. They have come against the fleshly manifestations of some people who claim that they are moves, when in fact they are not.

Well we can spit hairs to define the church but for the sake of arguement lets say the visible church that anyone can see, lack of a better word institutional (yes there is a true spiritual church made up of faith believers)

Reread history starting with the legalists at Galatia that which has killed the move of the spirit has come from the ranks of Church folk.

For example:Montanists

AD -155 MONTANUS: of Ardaba a small village in Mysia. He was instrumental in navigating the church during this first century Holy Ghost revival in Pepuza, Phrygia. Because the manifestations of the gifts of the Holy Ghost the church grew rapidly and many miracles of healing took place in the name of Jesus Christ. The gifts of and discernment were prevalent in all their assemblies. As the gifts began to manifest unclean spirits cried out and all worldliness was purged out from their midst. A spirit of holiness and separation became their standard, these Spirit filled Christians were called to be saints.

They taught and believed in the literal second coming of Jesus Christ and the one thousand year rule of Christ on earth. The first great separation between the church carnal and the church Spiritual took place because of the Holy and righteous stand the Montanists took against worldliness. The church carnal in order to maintain it's position in the world had to reject Montanism. So in AD 177 the Montanist and ALL SPIRIT FILLED Christians were EXPELLED from the dying, carnal and worldly church.

They were not only expelled from the dying church but many false accusations were raised against them in the form of false documents as from them and concerning their doctrines. Along with Montanists, the carnal church banished the Spirit of prophecy from their midst, which is the testimony of Christ. Montanus himself suffered a martyrs death for the cause of Christ AD 202.

Yes, history is filled with renewals that were squashed by those wanting to control it, didn't understand it, or didn't fit into the unique theological interpretations. I gave you one example from 155 AD as the institutional church began to fall away so the level of beauracratic control and theology as a means of keeping orthodoxy and the church so call pure, the end result was the church became more and more distanced from the spiritual control of Christ over his church. I will find more sources but 90% of my library are in boxes in the garage and I will have to dig for it.

Fresh moves of God was a poor choice, but let's say renewal.

Bill, Bill, thou art but a lad, do a little more reading friend.

Thanks Felicity, takes a woman to help make men communicate better.

I realize too that this is just a discussion, but the reason some of us like to be very clear about these things is that the Church is often a target for criticism, some of it warranted, but not all of it.

A lot of wacky stuff gets slipped in on the heels of some vigorous, vociferous round of criticizing the Church.

Well, I'm not entering into discussion necessarily in defence mode. :)

The established "church" threw rocks, criticized, and mocked saying that we were of the deveil when Pentecost first showed up way back around 1900. It's hapened since. People were forced out of their homes and out of their churches. A price was paid and yes, there was persecution.

The 'established' (church) were unsaved folks for they had not obeyed the gospel that would put them into the church.

I can't wholeheartedly agree with that. Sorry. ;) :)

We are differing on how we define the Church.

I consider the church to be comprised solely of people who have been born again of water and Spirit.

The harlot is who does the persecuting; not the Bride.

I understand.

I think that the first post was talking about the church in a broader sense. Our view on what the church is and the world's or society's view in general is different.

I am in shock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:aaa

LOL! I love that shocked look on your face. It's worth disagreeing with you every now and then just to see it. :toofunny

Shall I mention some strangeness in the Ranks of the prophetic:

God using a depressed prophet-Jeremiah
A guy with a bitter heart and bad attitude towards those he suppost to reach-Jonah
Another one subject to extreme mood swings-Elijah
A mystic subject to weird visions-Ezekiel
One who went naked for a long time-Hosea
Another that talked to animals-Balaam
A guy who resorted to lying to get his way out of trouble-Abraham
Vegeterian-Daniel
Wears unusual clothing-John the Baptist
A guy who would argue with God-Habakkuk

My point is we shouldn't judge what God does alone on the package that he brings his ministry through!

Early Judaizers were born again!

We should, or shouldn't?

Typo, maybe?

I would also remind us all of the way Isaac was deceived.

It "felt" like Esau...but you best listen to the voice.

If the voice isn't speaking Truth, better be cautious.

The proof is in God backing up HIS WORD. If it is the word of God and a work of God....God will confirm it.

To reach the world, God uses flawed human beings prone to error. There's not a preacher anywhere that doesn't have flaws.

Thanks, I always type to fast, old habits. And yes, the voice is the key, but equally is the fruit of that voice.

Let’s give a few brief lessons from History for the sake of Rford,
Keep in mind that history is often written by the victors, so in many cases we are not sure what some of these groups practiced.

I already mentioned the Montanists.

The decentralized group that bishops Theodosious made become a part of the large institutional church cut off any kind of spiritual church and renewal AD 380

Priscillian was a Spanish nobleman who, already in the 4th century, immediately revolted against the State-and Priest-religion. This man, on fire for God, ”initiated a large lay movement in Spain and France; even many priests and bishops joined in. They started small fellowships they called brotherhoods, where, only converted and baptized Christians could take part of their simple meetings in ordinary houses. That was too much for Orthodox Church to take: Priscillian and six of his friends were killed in Trier”, says Ch. Babut, who studied this movement.

Luther had a very influential disciple and teacher, Caspar Schwenckfeld (1480 - 1561). Initially, Luther greeted Schwenckfeld, who was a preaching non-theologian, as ”a messenger from God, ” and was greatly influenced by him. Schwenckfeld had a dramatic ”born again” experience in 1527, and through his subsequent biblical studies of scripture, however, he started to critizise Luther, pleading with him not to follow through with his sudden new direction after 1530, an almost Roman-Catholic ecclesiology and his teaching that a person can be born again by baptism. ”Luther started to persecute Schwenckfeld with bitter hatred, called him a demonized fool and heretic, and refused to even read his writings; he sent them back unread. The Reformer of Schlesien had to wander around Europe like a hunted deer,” writes french Bible teacher Alfred Kuen. The outlawed reformer went around and established lively fellowship in many places, which were basically homecells, biblegroups and prayergroups. To avoid further tensions with the established church, Schwenckfeld did not introduce baptism and the Lord’s Supper into his groups. When Schwenckfeld died 1561 in Ulm, Lutheran Pastors tried, by force, to bring back his many disciples into the churches, and if they were not willing, had them thrown into jail and their children taken away from them.

I agree with you.

I wrote that post thinking of the lame man who was let down through the roof and Jesus forgave his sins. Then after knowing the hearts of those around Him saying within themselves only God can forgive sins......He healed the lame man.

In another place, Jesus told those around him not to believe him for his words alone, but for the works which he did.

I guess what I'm saying, there will be those that doubt a move is of God, but if it is followed with signs and wonders, we need to be open that it truly may be God moving even if it is in another denomination that doesn't preach the "whole" truth of the new birth and the true identity of Christ.

God will confirm HIS word and will lead into more truth..

I remember a time when folks in the church I grew up in said that if you spoke in tongues with your eyes open, it was in the flesh and not God. It was silly and not true.

I remember Apostolic folks ridiculing and mocking other Apostolic folks for too much shockamoo or not enough.

And as Felicity posted, I can still remember when the Pentecostals, as we were known then, were beaten and talked about and laughed at and made fun of.

It wasn't right when we did it or do it to each other, it wasn't right back in the day when it happened to us, and it's not right now when we do it.

We really can't say that some of those who were a part of these other moves never came to the knowledge of baptism or One God. The simple truth is we have no way of knowing how many may have come to be baptized because of an initial move of God on their life outside of our four walls.

I was sharing with someone just this morning that a woman I used to go to church with told me that she came to the Apostolic Church because she was first drawn to a move of God by listening and viewing...are you ready?! Kenneth Copeland!!

Eleanor's heart was pricked for more, and she found it, but the hunger began with a man's doctrine most here do not hold.

I am convinced a move of God can happen anywhere men and women are hungry.

We are admonished to try the spirits, and there will truly come a day that the Lord will say to those who may have had signs following, "Depart from me..."

But to make a blanket statement and say that there is nothing there because it is not in our circle or under our banner is just as wrong, to me, as it was back many moons ago when it happened to us.

Just my opinion...:tiphat

Peter was resisting the revival that was taking place with the Gentiles...