Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Can anyone help me locate the following books/literature referenced in Thomas Fudge’s book (Christianity Without the Cross ) ? I have done all the standard internet and bookstore searches that I can think of, knowing that they are long out of print and not available through the usual bookstores.
Thanks, Will

In the Service of the King : The Autobiography of W.E. Kidson
The Agreement of the Spirit and the Water and the Blood : John Paterson
My first Fifty years in Pentecost: A.D. VanHoose
Jehovah-Jesus by C.H. Yadon
The Phenomenon of Pentecost: A History of the Latter Rain : Frank Ewart--Edited by W.E. Kidson (1947 Edition)
Issues of the Apostolic Herald (Publication of the Pentecostal Church Incorporated)

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

You would have to go to the UPCI historical society in Hazelwood to get most of them.

It would be a cool thing if they ever digitized the older works to preserve them against time.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

I have those two... oh, guess not the original 1947 version...

Sam, who posts here, may be your best resource.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

The only one of those I have is an old very worn copy of Bro. Ewart's book. I don't know how or where to get some of that old stuff. I have tried Amazon.com and eBay for the Yadon book unsuccessfully.

A while back I asked about the Yadon book and someone thought that one of C.H. Yadon's children or relatives was considering republishing it but I've never heard any more about that.

Someone on here sent Bro. Epley a copy of a biography on Bro. Kidson but I can't remember who it was and if he would make copies available for others.

That's a part of our Apostolic heritage that has been revised out of our literature.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Before I saw the request for the older books I read an old post from a couple of years ago that I will post below. It saddens me to think of how an organization founded upon tolerance and respect for doctrinal differences has degenerated to the place where it is today and how certain aspects of its history have been removed and hidden.

Here is the two year old post:

I for one am a little weary of the attempts by some on the forum who claim heritage w/ the original PAJCers and 3 steppers of yesteryear.

Yet, I am thankful for internet forums that allow truth to be spoken.

For about 2 to 3 generations, we know that men of diverse beliefs on the idea of New Birth tried to fellowship and co-exist under a noble experiment and failed primarily when they were forced to leave the UPCI in the 1990's.

Although the same Fundamental Doctrine that asked both sides to not contend for the disunity of the faith ... and is touted by today's posers as part of the AS that ALL MINISTERS MUST ADHERE TO ... was ignored by hate-filled radicals, almost from the fellowship's inception, and by those who have remained in this presently waning fellowship.

Yes, the merger sought to unite a group of primarily white Oneness preachers under Acts 2:38. The fact is the only thing these men had in common was their shared belief of the Godhead and performing baptism in Jesus name. As to the significance of Acts 2:38 and the New Birth they differed greatly.

Shamefully, today those who rewrite and skew our history leave out important components of our shared Apostolic Oneness history while lifting the banner of our Acts 2:38 heritage.

As a person who was raised in the Oneness Apostolic movement I know the emphasis put on the idea of Heritage ...

it is a value reified by the culture.

It is harped on from pulpits ... it is a central theme of many conferences ... and is a focal point of a lot of the literature I've read since my childhood.

History is presented as to scaffold this value of 3-step Holiness Apostolic heritage and used to validate their existence and the extra-biblical truths held by many.

Just early this year, A Mangun stepped up before those at BOTT 2007 ... making his famous/infamous remarks in support of television advertising ... and as part of his presentation he sought to use photos of his dad ... and persuaded the crowd that he was still TRUE TO HIS HERITAGE.

The heritage badge is arrogantly worn by the radicalized Ultracon zealots who use snippets of skewed history to validate their heritage and make themselves victims of the schism of the early Pentecostal movement called the "New Issue".

Today's PCI Oneness Apostolic compromisers and charismatics are belittled as not being true or embarrassed of their heritage ... and even MUSH.

What is bothersome and disingenous in all of this is that those who glorify and champion their heritage ... while playing the victim and stating they monopolize ALL TRUTH ....

fail to realize that in their zeal to revise history books AND present the truth... they are the one's not true to the heritage ... our history truly reveals.

The truth is ... that the early Oneness pioneer GIANTS like Haywood, Urshan, Goss, Clyde Haney ... and most others never considered Trinitarians as lost ... fellowshipped with them regularly ... preached in their events and had them preach in their own.

Facts show that PCI men like Goss and Small even started fellowships w/ Trinitarians in an effort to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as evident w/ the early formation of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.

Even the General Assemblies, circa 1918, here in the States allow for Trinitarians and Oneness believers to shortly co-exist with the New Issue not being a centerpoint.

Yet, by 1925-30 ... and attempt to create solely Oneness Apostolic entities was marked by some success but also fragmentation and division ... the latter is still w/ us today.

Apostolic whites and blacks chose to divide over racial lines.

When the UPCI formed the real radical zealot 3 -steppers stayed w/ the real PAJC as not to fellowship w/ those "weak on doctrine"

Even from the onset of the UPCI merger, criticisms abounded when Goss, a one-stepper took office as the first General Supt. of the newly formed UPCI the radicals chose to take him out of office because of his "weakness" ... succeeding in the early 50's. This is the same one-stepping Howard Goss, that believed BAPTISTS WERE SAVED.

The org continued to remain somewhat unified throughout the 50's to 70's suffering various schisms ... and then the radical zealots rose up again in the 1970's when questions of which New Birth doctrine was being preached overseas, namely Colombia, and add demand the addition of "for the remission of sins" to the Fundamental Doctrine.

In 1990, the 3 step radicals finally succeeded in doing away w/ the one steppers w/ the passing of the Westburg resolution and the institution of the Affirmation Statement.

Those of the Oneness 1 step persuasion realized that co-existence w/ a group that seek disfellowship rather than fellowship were shown the door ....

With the post AS schism of the 1990's, many of these 2cd/3rd generation one-stepping Apostolics had no problems joining w/ Trinitarians in fellowships like Global Network. Why? Because they realized that most of the radicalized 3 steppers would never consider them as truly brethren.
The facts are plain ... 2cd and 3rd generation PCIers, especially from Ten. and Canada can tell you ... the stories of what really happened during the noble failed experiment. Once again, history paints a truly different picture than those zealouts who are far removed from the hetitage of the past.

Today the new "Heritage" posers claim unity in purpose and direction w/ the PCIers and PAJCers of the past... yet they still seek to disfellowship and berate their views and doctrine TODAY.

Ironically, today this spirit of disunity has ripped the UPCI again. The very AS that sought doctrinal purity is pushing the ultra-radicals out.

In conclusion, facts show that the early PCIers and PAJCers had very different views with those who will not consider Trinitarians as saved and will not fellowship w/ those who look, dress, act and believe like them.

This is in sharp contrast, several generations later. ... of a radicalized element within our Oneness ranks that through propaganda and lack of scholarship have whitewashed our history and true heritage while disfellowshipping even eating their own]their own without abandon.

Is truth limited to repeating the mantra of Acts 2:38 ... presenting soteriological and Christological views? Are we not to be truthful in all things ... such as our history and applicatation of bible-based holiness principle?

Those who drumbeat heritage are nominally Apostolics ...

To misquote my friend Ferd ...

"there is a very big difference between what is the new fangled PAJC and what was the light PAJC view of old."


Yes, both sides have evolved ... with 3 steppers making their circles smaller and smaller ... with continued in-fighting among each other ...

while PCIers have returned to their roots of open fellowship and seeking unity w/ the entire Body of Christ.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Not on your list, but an excellent resource is: http://www.1stapostolic.org/oldpublications.html

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

I was born a few years after the merger. My only comment is that the UPC I knew as a child is not the same as what we see in 2009.

Revisonist (is that a word?) history!

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Those are old PAJC mags and Heralds, not PCI.

The young man who pastors that church is from the First Apostolic Church (FAC) in Cincinnati. Bro. Curts, pastor of the Cinti church from when he came to Cincinnati in the 1920's until his death in 1969, was PAW, PAJC, and UPC. He was not from the PCI side. When I came to Cincinnati in 1957 I lived with the Wilson family for several months. Bro. Woody Wilson was a deacon at FAC and later left for Frankfort, KY to re-open a church there. After his death, his son Danny took over and he is the current pastor. I assume what he has made available on pdf was stuff his father had from his time at FAC. For the few weeks I lived with the Wilsons, Danny was a little boy. Now he's pastor of a church.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Yeah. But, but the early Heralds have a PCI flavor. I believe you posted an article from one recently by Howard Goss that ran completely contrary to the new "strong on doctrine!" Three Stepper attitude.

Just read through the Heralds and you'll get a good idea of the creeping revisionism that Commonsense mentions (above).

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

This is the first issue of the Pentecostal Herald to be published after the merger. It is the December 1945 edition. A few of the pages are missing but this is the way it was provided to me by the PPH. Note the article titled "Our Paper The Pentecostal Herald" on page 6 of the Herald but page 4 of the pdf file. In it the temporary editor states that they would publish articles by both one-steppers and three-steppers (not his terms).

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Thanks Sam - I added a quote to my sig.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Yes, I found that interesting...

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

The much spoken of "spirit of the merger" is sadly diminished today.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

The best PCI type book I ever read was the Bible.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

I am not of the UPC or ever have been. I have followed the debates between the PCI group of them and themselves. We always hear from the PCI side that Frank Ewart the modern day founder of the Apostolic Movement was a "one step" believer.

We must consider the fact that Ewart like many of that day had been in fellowship with people who seemed to love the Lord and be faithful so he and many others did have a personal problem in reconciling Oneness and Acts 2:38 with their own past experiences.

However it is noteworthy for those who reject Ewart as being a "three step" teacher it is he himself who began teaching Acts 2:38 as a distinct message from the usual John 3:16 or Romans 10:9 message so common to the Protestant movement.

I loosely quote from page 45 of Phenomenon Of Pentecost:

He indicates here these famous men did not teach the same word as those in the first century.

Page 13 in his own personal testimony (loosely quoted).

Note that he did not consider himself in full relationship with God in his Baptist years.

Again Ewart speaking of his role in the Oneness Pentecostal Movement Pg. 67

See? It would certainly NOT be revisionist to say Ewart taught those he influenced that those outside Oneness were not in the true faith.

On page 114 he certainly leads us to believe he was not a one stepper. Loose quote:

As to the essentiality of the baptism of the Holy Ghost Pg. 46.

Much is made of the fact that Ewart and other early Oness fellowshipped Trinitarians. This not that big a deal. I have friends that are Trins also. Some of them have broken contact with me some have not. Ewart says it was the Trintarian Assemblies of God who broke the fellowship between Oneness and Trins forcing them to accept the Trinity or leave the org.

A 27 point creed including Trinty was forced on the Ministers. Loose quote Pg. 67.

So my point here is that all the talk that 3 steppers are revising the past must be taken with caution.

I personally believe the UPC has it as close as we can get it when they say "the full standard of New Testament salvation is Acts 2:38.

This agrees with Ewarts testimony that he went from an "initial contact" into later through Acts 2:38 into a "full relationship" with God.

It also agrees with the Apostle Peter who in the first gospel message ever preached in the New Testament Era:

Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38.

Some one steppers are now calling this a "mantra".

If so it was given into our trust by the Apostle Peter and the other eleven for they were all present.

I trace my heritage in Christ back to the teachings given by them. Peace and love, Michael

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Actually, Ewart's contributions came along a bit later. Charles Fox Parham used the term "Apostolic faith" before 1899, and William Seymour of Azusa Street seems to have picked it up from him. A small, but I think, important point.

Seymour's Azusa Street Mission:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2691/...afd97209ca.jpg

I have the revised edition of 2000, what edition do you have? From page 9 I read:
That's the only thing I can find in the opening chapter that closely resembles your loose quote.

To clarify a bit, from what I've read, he did consider himself in a "full relationship with God" up until he met a Pentecostal evangelist and Ewart's subsequent visit to a Camp Meeting in Oregon in 1908. It was the Pentecostals who persuaded him that he needed something more."

Before that time, the only thing he said he was "missing" was the power that Finney and Moody had in their ministries - and neither of them were Pentecostals!

The issue of whether he was saved or not wasn't even an issue for Ewart; and that's the point of contention between the One and Three Steppers. Ewart believed himself saved and was deeply involved in the Lord's work a Baptist missionary and pastor. He was preaching to others and seeing them saved - or at least he thought the folks he reached to have been saved. That's the true mark of a "One Stepper," I suppose. People are saved at repentance or conversion.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

By "Faith once delivered..." Ewart was referring to the Apostolic Faith message along with the newer addition of the Oneness message. He saw this as a restoration of the First Century apostle's teachings. And that's key: it was a restoration and he believed that he was a part of it.

He never questions whether or not the people he had ministered to as a Baptist minister were saved. That's the important distinction between the One and the Three Stepper mode of thinking.
The complete quote:
This was the testimony of the Baptist gentleman as recorded in 1947, and NOT Ewart's statement, though Ewart seems to have concurred by 1947.
All Christians everywhere would probably agree with this statement. However the contention arises when we take the full context of Ewart's meaning and see that since at least 1908, he has meant that the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost was "speaking in other tongues." In this regard he was a true disciple of the Trinitarians Seymour and Parham.
I've read and heard AoG sources who claimed that it was the feistiness of many of the Oneness people who forced the issue; but the historical record does stand. It was the Trinitarians who broke fellowship officially. However, this doesn't really speak directly to the issue of the "One Stepper" versus "Three Stepper" divide within the Oneness ranks.

The Oneness people who do fellowship Trinitarians obviously consider them saved and brethren in Christ. I think the "fellowship Trinitarians" thing comes up around here mostly when the definition of "Apostolic" is debated.

The historical record is plain: the originators of the Apostolic Faith Movement were all Trinitarians. Therefore, belief in the Trinity does not exclude someone from this category, and certainly believing that a Trinitarian could be saved shouldn't remove one from the ranks of "Apostolic" either.
The practice of historical revisionism within the UPC and among others in the Oneness movement is rife. If we include the attempts to identify such historical movements as the Cathari and the Waldensians as "Oneness Pentecostals" then the revisionism is really quite egregious.

I don't think that I've seen anything here that would cause me to think Frank Ewart considered his Baptist converts lost. Nor do I recollect him ever saying anything to that effect in his book. The one attempt to prove otherwise were the words of an unnamed Baptist Sunday School superintendent.
The phrase "initial contact" does not appear in Frank Ewart's book.

The man was a Baptist missionary and church planter with a zeal for the things of God. It would hardly seem likely that he would have considered that a shallow or even an unsaved condition.

Again, the only thing he felt that he was missing at the time was the spirit and power of Finney and Moody. Neither of those men were Pentecostals.

Peace and love, bro. :santathumb

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

I have the revised edition of 1975. Im looking at Pg. 13 as I type. Pg. 13 is the first page of the chapter called "Introduction". I never noticed before but Pg. 13 is the first page that is numbered.

The quote I gave in my post is from the first sentence of the chapter. I present here the first three sentences exactly as they are written.

Im not saying he never thought he was saved when he first repented. Obviously he did as we all who came up in Protestant Churches did. My point is as he looked back he understood that his initial repentance and faith had not given him a full salvation experience.

I think from other quotes I gave he clearly thought that. Ewart was a Restorationist. He was trying to present the truth that he now saw from scripture as the full gospel without condemning others to Hell who he thought had a walk with God.

I started out much like he did. Repenting while reading a Baptist book. I assumed I was saved I did not know any different. I received the Holy Spirit 6 weeks later with tongues and prophecy while on the job.

I was not in Church period at that time. I was not in fellowship with anyone who was teaching this. I did not at first even know this was the baptism as I had no teaching of it. But I know it took me into a deeper experience. A reality that reminded me of characters in the Bible.

It was still another 4 years before I was baptized into the name of Jesus.

All this would normally have been done in short order in the early Church who taught this full gospel. Or had I come initially into an Apostolic Church the same would have been true. But because of the multitude of sects, Church groups, and religous material out there God has to take us from where we are to where he wants us in our understanding.

I was out witnessing one night with our Coffee House ministry in the days of the Jesus Movement of the 70's. At about midnight outside a bar where we were preaching to the lost two Apostolic young men approached us.

In their message they pointed out that it was the FIRST SERMON EVER PREACHED BY THE APOSTLES at Pentecost.

When the crowd cried out what must we do Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That really struck me. The Apostles could not have been wrong! Who knew more about salvation in Christ? The Protestant Teachers I had been under or the apostles of Yeshua?

From that moment I could not shake that truth until the day I was rebaptized in a Charismatic Church that had also just came to the revelation.

To this day I judge what men are saying about salvation against what Peter and the rest of the apostles said on that day.

Was Peter wrong? Were they all wrong?

Is it considered wrong to say what they said? If it is not whats the beef?

If what they said was in error we are all in trouble if the apostles messed up their very first assignment.

I understand the dilemma Frank Ewart was in. But better to see our experience as going from partial to complete over time than to distort what was plain to the apostles and early disciples.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Ok my book by Ewart definitely contains the words "an initial contact to a full relationship".

Your copy evidently does not.

Who is doing the revising? Your copy is from 2000 mine from 1975.

Which side of the issue stands to gain by revising his statement? Was Ewart alive in 2000? I dont think so. Its unlikely he revised it.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

I questioned whether to add that phrase "loose quote". The reason I did it was because of the copyright situation. It had nothing to do with trying to make a quote into something it was not.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

When I mentioned the Apostolic Movement I was referring to the Apostolic Oneness restoration. You are right that the "Apostolic Faith Movement" was founded by Parham.

The quote I gave from Ewarts book on page 67 shows that he considered himself as the "ringleader" that is the leader of the group of Oneness believers at that time.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

It appears the FIRST revisor of Ewarts writings was W.E. Kidson according to the very first page of the book. It was apparently edited by him before the book was ever published. So the "initial contact to a full relationship" quote was allowed to stand by him IF indeed Ewart made the comment.

The book was revised again in 1975. No clear info by who.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

The quotes of Ewart are from 1947 - post merger and post WW2. The entire book was written in 1947. The "Three Stepper" belief system was a development over time.

Ewart didn't just wake up one day in 1908 and say, "Everybody's going to hell who doesn't speak in tongues..." - And then suddenly look up again in 1913 and say, "Everybody's going to hell that isn't baptized in Jesus' name." In fact, I don't think we have him expressing anything like those sentiments until 1947.

Of course he had to have had those thoughts earlier to pen them in his memoir, but his activities in 1908 and 1913 seem to admit to a more "One Stepper" view. The "Three Stepper" outlook came later.

There was a development that took place over time.
I agree entirely. This is the "One Stepper" attitude.
Have you understood what they said? Do you mean to say that no one was saved from the start of the Third Century up until the time that Baptist Sunday School superintendent stood and said that he was finally saved in the early 20th Century?

That's the implication of the "Three Stepper" doctrine, and I do have a beef with that. The Three Stepper response has been historical revisionism. They claim that people who were clearly not Oneness Pentecostals in history as their own (Marvin Arnold, Thomas Weisser and Bill Chalfant - though he seems to have moderated that opinion).

They have also gone to great pains to push out the writings of Oneness pioneers like A.D. Urshan, John Dearing and many others. Why is it that virtually all the material available through the UPC was written post-merger? What about those pioneers? "Well..." they say, "It's complicated."

I remember N.A. Urshan apologizing for his dad's writings.
How we handle that dilemma is really the gist of the whole matter. The Three Stepper way has been to deny that such a dilemma ever existed. That's the historical revisionism that gets discussed here and what you appear to have been responding to.

For me, I see Jesus Christ as the One who saves. He will save us if we sincerely cry out to Him for forgiveness. He will save us even if our baptismal ceremony didn't really go very well. He will save us no matter how eloquently we pray. That's what the Apostles said in Acts 2.

They said, "... You shall receive! The promise is for you, your children and those afar off; even as many as the Lord Himself shall call." (Loosely quoted :santathumb).

And notice... the whole process is predicated upon "even as many as the Lord our God shall call..." He does the calling, the saving and the sorting. Such matters are not left to the fallible lips of men who may or may not get a "mantra" right.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

The 2000 revision has this statement from the publisher:

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

I have an original 1947 version of Ewart's book, sorry won't part with it.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Thanks for the replies so far. I should have been more specific on the 1947 (Original) Edition of Ewart's/Kidson's Book. I was looking for someone that would be willing to copy the pages that mentioned A.D. van Hoose (pages 108-9), Raymond G. Hoekstra, and W.E. Kidson, because according to "Christianity Without the Cross" by Thomas Fudge, page 95 footnote 133, these three ministers were removed/not present in the later editions after 1947.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

How about scanning it? If you could just get the jpg type images and send me the files, I could run the OCR and format it all nicely into a PDF document. Ol' Brother Frank would be proud!

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

I suspect Fudge may have had the 1975 version like the one Michael was quoting from. Interestingly, this latest edition contains the Editor's comment about the "complete text" that I've posted already in this thread.

And, the year 2000, was about the same time frame that Tom Fudge had been digging around the UPC archives before being shown the door. It's probably not a huge leap in reasoning to think that Fudge's research work for Christianity Without the Cross may have compelled the PPH to redo their edited version of Ewart's original.

Also, note the involvement of controversial evangelist William Branham in the PAJC/PCI/UPC that Ewart describes. This may have been dropped when the reference to Kidson was dropped.

From pages 180 - 183 of the "Revised" 2000 Edition:

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Keith... could you at least scan the chapter on "Pentecostal Leaders" from your 1947 edition? This is Chapter 18, and I believe the final chapter in all three editions.

A full scan of the whole book would be great, but I know that I am imposing. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ons/icon10.gif

I am increasingly drawn to the idea of putting up all three editions for a comparative analysis.

Here's the Editor's note from the 2000 edition again:

Press house rules. (4) Correction of a few minor errors.

Considering the revisionism that lead up to and followed 1992, it might be good to take a look at the "few minor errors" that are were corrected.

I'm curious as well. How much of a role did the Publishing House play in redacting the Pentecostal history and legacy that contributed to the events at General Conference in 1992?

I was at the Conference and in all of the Business meetings. In fact, I was on the Tabulating Committee, but when I reported for duty the first day I was told that my services weren't needed. I thought that it was because I was a "kid" - I was 31 at the time and a full time UPC minister holding a General License, but still, they had a way of making you feel like a "kid."

That Conference vote went the way it did because of a "misrepresentation" of the General Board's actions. A falsehood swayed the entire outcome. I was there. How deep do the falsehoods go?

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

While your posts are always, always informative, some bring me much sadness. :angelsad

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But, we can learn from these things. We can grow. We can forgive each other, make things right as best we can and we can leave a wonderful inheritance for our children.

We just have to be mature enough to be able to look at the information and brave enough to look at ourselves. There's really nothing to fear. We're in the reconciliation business. We just need to apply that to ourselves as well.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

In a 2004 critique of David Norris's symposium response to Thomas Fudge's Christianity Without the Cross, Bernie Gillespie addresses some the shameless redaction/reduction of Ewart's work by the butchers at PPH in his paper entitled "The Cross in Eclipse" (source: http://inchristalone.org/The%20Cross...clipse%204.pdf

In responding to Norris' bold attempt to poison the well by trying to question Fudge's Historiographical approach Gillespie brilliantly exposes how the UPCI has taken creative license to sanitize history to the market of a propagandized "Apostolic Identity" by giving example after example of the careless editing being discussed in this thread.

Gillespie describe the methodology saying:

In short, it is a methodology that is subjective in perspective, eclectic in it
sourcing, reductionistic in selection, and manipulative in qualifying and correcting all past history. In some cases it changes their own historical sources, on the basis of whether or not they validate the present UPCI consensus. Of course, this is a oblique and contrived way of treating
history, because group bias filters out conflicting facts, events and views. It controls the kinds of questions that the group may ask, as well as where it can get its answers.

One of the serious ramifications of this methodology is that it lacks perceptive self-criticism, limits the voices to which it listens, and is prejudged toward objective historical facts and events that appear contrary to the group’s opinion. In effect, vital portions of historical reality are neglected,
ignored or dismissed. Even greater, it fails to provide the group that uses it a true history and identity.


I submit the following by Gillespie to the resulting discussion revolving Ewart's book.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

thats a knockout article. thanks dan.

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Gillespie on the redacting of Ewart:

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Gillespie adds:

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

Frank Ewart from the evidence definitely appears to have believed in progressive light doctrine even though he helped father the present Water and Spirit view of the modern oneness movement.

His influence on the likes of Clyde Haney and his brother in law, David Gray, (whom was pastored by Ewart ) also is of great interest ... as they soon adapted forms of light doctrine.

Haney is linked with the "Friends of the Bride" teaching while Gray although not vocal about his view that Trinnies may be saved... those close to him confirm he did tend to subscribe to this notion while unable to reconcile it all fully as being a PCI Water and Spirit guy.

There is a glimpse of Elder David Gray's light doctrine views in his 1986 book "Questions Pentecostals Ask" and ironically is still on the required ministers reading list.

Gray writes:

"But the question is asked, "How about the one who never heard? Will he go to hell because he never had a chance?"

It is my conviction that if a man hungers and thirt after righteiousness he shall be filled (Matthew 5:6), no matter who he is, or what measure of the gospel he has heard up to that point. Let me exlain. A measure of light is given to every ma at some particular point is his life (John 1:9). If a man is a good and just man who hungers and thirsts after righteousness, he walks in the measure of light, more light will be given to him" ....


On deathbead repentance, Gray writes:

"There may be such a thing as deathbed repentance today, but don't count on it".

No doubt also that Haney, Gray and the older Yadon were influenced by the bible training they received at Harry Morse's church in Oakland early on.

I understand Vouga was also at the Morse's mission in Oakland for awhile having been saved there ... I find the Morse connection between these men intriguing as well

It is becoming painfully obvious that the pioneering leaders of the modern OP movement would not be accepted by the "No Exceptions" radicals of today.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

I may have that book. The one I have is old and falling apart, but I can't find it right now.

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It would be interesting to find literature or teachings of Harry Morse.

It seems Ellis Scism was also touched by his ministry.

Morse seems to be an enigma ... according to Fudge's research he never really accepted by the Oneness radicals ... eventually following the "Latter Rain" crowd while believing in the annihilation of the wicked and possibly dualism.

Ewart writes in a letter about Morse teaching " Jesus was a created being and is separate from the Father".

This PCI man was a mentor to Gray, Haney, Yadon, Scism and Vouga.

Re: Wanted--PCI Type Books
 

I had failed to remember that Bernie G. had those articles on Ewart's book. Thanks for bringing that up DAII.

Those articles are must reads for anyone looking at the question of Apostolic history and the practice of historical revisionism.