Hell is Unexplainable?
 

“For me it is unexplainable how a person who holds the orthodox view [of eternal torment] can

at any time have a glad moment in this life. He is constantly mingling with people whose final

destiny will be to be tormented eternally without end…To me it is even more unexplainable that

such an ‘orthodox’ person can expect even a happy moment in eternity, when he knows that

contemporaneously with his blessed estate continues the endless torment and agony of

innumerable millions of the accursed. Can he, if he loves his neighbors as himself, yes, even if he

has just a little bit of human love and is not solely a selfish wretch, have even a single happy

moment?” — John Persone Swedish Lutheran Bishop

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

The above is a perfect example of why UR is a fallacy. It relies not on scriptures but on emotional appeal and personal opinion

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Only born again people experience "eternal life".To say a sinner will die and burn forever is indeed a form of eternal life being tormented.They are already dead in the eyes of God,they do not have life to begin with unless they become Born Again

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Unless "life" does not mean to be alive but refers more to a quality of being alive

However one point must be confessed...no matter what Eternal punishment/death is, it's as Eternal as Eternal Life...otherwise the bible is a book of incoherent words that can mean whatever anyone wants them to mean

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Exactly

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

i just quote the bible

however. I do not believe everyone will be saved. that is not in my bible

my bible states that whose ever believes in the son will have eternal Life

if people do not then they dont meet the requirment that God has set fourth.

death and hell will be tossed into the lake of Fire. this is the second death.

I dont know exactly what intells with the second death. i do know that those who take the mark of the beast the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Funny how you imply that the emotion of a person is a bad gauge for understanding God's idea regarding human life. Where in the World do you think we acquired our emotion????

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Truth is not based on feelings. It's based on what God said. "Well I feel that God is like" is not a valid way of knowing what God is like...if you want to know what God is like, you read what God says

Appealing to emotions is a classic logical fallacy. When people get emotional about a subject they tend to also become subjective, because emotions are subjective. People can hear about someone being arrested for a horrendous murder and based on their emotion feel that person is guilty before even seeing the facts.

In the opening post not one verse was quoted. Instead several attempts to appeal to your emotions, rather than your intellect, was made.

That is the usual UR argument.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

UR has to tear out entire parables of Christ, and has to deny the truth of salvation by grace through faith. It is a heresy which is based more on what man thinks God should be like instead of actually reading the bible to see what God has said about Himself and His righteous holy judgments.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

I'm confident in the Lord that; Those who should be saved will be saved. I depend on the Holy Ghost to prompt me to those who I should share the message of the cross.

Therefore I don't burden myself with heavy burdens that interfere with what Jesus is doing. I use to get into the way when I allow my emotions to run ahead of me because I thought at a time in my life I could some how get everybody saved. It tore me apart thinking someone might not make it because I didn't tell them about Jesus.

I now let Jesus lead and bring me into a place where he wants me to be to witness concerning his salvation and plan for those that are his. I realize that not all will be saved many shall reject Jesus and his sacrifice. How shall they exscape who reject such a great sacrifice such as the suffering which our Lord and Savior went through.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

"Can the believing husband in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving wife in Hell? Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? Can the loving wife in Heaven be happy with her unbelieving husband in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be their sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish their bliss."

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Men judging God for His justice. This is a work of sin. Yes, those who judge God do so in their carnality, their love of sin, their love of rebellion against God. They want God to be so loving that He allows sin, allows unrighteousness, and they themselves have no personal responsibility before God, thus no judgment or justice by Him. When this happens, God ceases to be God and becomes a spiritual grandfather who overlooks the faults of his grandchildren.

In Heaven, the angels do not declare God is love, love, love. They do not cry out night and day joy, joy, joy. No, regardless of what men want, the angels continually testify night and day that God is holy, holy, holy. Because He is holy, He must hate sin, which by the very nature is contrary to the holiness of God. When sin and God come into the same arena, and mercy and grace do not intervene, judgment is what comes forth. While so many want God to be all inclusive, He Himself has said in His Word through the prophets that no sin shall abide in His presence. The sacrifice of Christ is limited to those who come to Him in repentance and faith.

So, all these folks who want God to be more human, I believe the best response would be to call such to repentance for not accepting what is said about God and His nature in the Bible. Hell is the absolute and fullest manifestation of the judgment of God against sin, and yes, regardless of what men say, it is real.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

there is a good book by rc sproul called the Holiness of God. very good gives alot of points that many people do not realize.

he is a baptist calvanist, so you will see some of his beliefs in the book but however its a very good book to read

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

You know, UT, you talk a lot about sin and rebellion, living in unrighteousness, but refuse to acknowledge that you are living in sin because you're fat. You are a glutton, and you fail to see yourself in your own weakness.

I've pointed this out to you before and you completely ignore your unhealthy and undisciplined lifestyle. As long as you keep sounding off with your self-righteous appeal and avoiding the fact that you are abusing your temple, everything you say that condemns others is condemning you.

In case you didn’t know, this means you are a hypocrite. Stop your ranting and find some mercy in your heart.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Prax, you know as well as I do that the Apostolic Church is drunk on emotion. We use feeling and emotion more than any other Faith, and we are guilty of driving people into a false idea because they "Feel God". People rolling on the ground and screaming is illogical emotion.

If we’re going to attack emotion, let’s go to the nuts and bolts of our Religion, where the abuse of emotion is real.

When God is portrayed as our Father in Scripture, and we are His sons and daughters, I can logically understand this relationship because I've been married for 31 years and have raised 3 children. This type of emotion, centered on love and forgiveness, is what God gave us when He created us.

This is why Hell, in the aspect of torture for Eternity, does not make sense to a father and mother who love their children, even when they fail or make mistakes. I don't understand a Father who would cast His failing children into a caldron of vicious, unending torment because life didn't turn out like they expected.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Im not attacking emotions. If that is what you thought, then you never understood either of my two posts.

I appeal to what the bible says about the topic. Universal Reconcilliationists appeal to their feelings. Rather than accepting what the bible says they filter what the bible says and interpret it based on their emotions.

A lot of people have entered into abusive relationships because they went by their feelings and not by objective facts. People can tell them till blue in the fact that relationship is bad for them but because they have these feelings they will not look at the facts or the facts will become colored by how they feel.

Feelings are great, but they can cause us to be subjective rather than objective

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

notforsale i cannot believe you said this,where is the love ,

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

NFS, I decided to edit my post. No way should I ever go down to your level. I know I am a big man, but I am no where as big as I once was. I acknowledged my sin and have lost a considerable amount of weight. I openly confessed my sin, and do so again. But, NFS, I will speak the truth, which seems to be very controversial, but so be it.

I guess what I said some time back is following truth. There is a lack of true repentance among some Christianity today. Instead, they prefer silent killing, where people are not told of their sin, their absolutely false doctrine, and their abominations before God, and just declare His love and not His justice, holiness, or truth.

So, NFS, I repent of what I originally wrote, and if you read it, I apologize. But, i will not stay silent.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Bingo!

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

I posted a link that has plenty of scripture. There is as much scripture, if not more for annihilationism as there is for eternal torment.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

what link? where?

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Sometimes love is calling those out who are ready to stone the adulterous woman. To be honest, I'm tired of preachers pounding the pulpit to live holy when they themselves are living in sin. I see people at the other end of firing such demands to "Live Right or else", and mercy is being thrown to the wind by those who are blind to their own condition. Preachers and Saints alike in our Faith claim God's special favor because we are Holy, yet they have lost the dignity to take care of their bodies.

I'll go so far as to say, a man has no business telling another man to stop smoking if he himself is obese. Obesity is the number one health epidemic in this Country, and the Church is looking the other way while people are dying because they can’t push the plate away.

Apostolics, and this includes me, have hidden behind the false robe of being better than others because we have the "Truth", and this has led to great fallacy in our Religion. It's time to admit, we are no better than anyone. I believe UT is under God’s love and compassion, even in his current health condition, but don’t beat the drum of living right, which makes you look better than others.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

UT, I spoke the Truth to you regarding something many are afraid to talk about. You can try to smooth over your sin or lack of ability in the area of diet and exercise, but you must see that Holiness and Truth include taking care of yourself if you are going to use Scripture to point out flaws. The Bible is very clear on gluttony, and the Scripture says that if a man is given to appetite, he should put a knife to his throat.

To be honest, I don't believe your weight problem is a Salvation issue, unless you choose to adhere to the strict standard of radical Religion. I've been in this Movement for 33 years, and hard preaching about "Living Right" has confused many because we lose sight of our own weaknesses. That’s the problem; we become blind and are ready to stone the weak when they fail or lose sight of God in their life, refusing to look in the mirror to see ourselves.

The only thing I ask from you and other people, who have a problem in this area, is to be considerate of others who might struggle with something completely different, which includes understanding of the Bible. Human failure will always be in our midst, and we must accept that some people will fight with certain sins until they die. Even people who don’t “Live Right” according to our idea deserve our love and patience. People need mercy, and in the end, more than anything, that will be what we all need.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

The usual suspects, rant that no scripture was used in the OP on this thread!!!

The quote was, yes, someone's opinion, but not one has addressed the actual discussion. Why is that???? The reason is simply that you all really know that ED is completely bankrupt of the character and nature of a reasonable human, much less the response of the Almighty!!

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

To create beings having the foreknowledge that you will have to torture them for eternity to me seems to be a more wicked deed then any deed done by man.

I have trouble believing that this would be done by a merciful God that I serve. I'm thankful that He has given me scripture to know that this is not the case.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

I was referring to prax's post as to how UR runs on emotive bases rather than scripture. Why did you feel it dealt with annihilationism?

PS: that is one eerie avatar of yours. Phew.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Amen Bro. After 16 years of believing in eternal torment the Lord opened the eyes of my understanding the first time I did a study on annihilation.

The scriptures set forth by Greg Boyd should be sufficient a one wanting truth.

Wow! I never thought I would hear myself agreeing with Greg Boyd on anything! Good for him.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

I don't know what "annihilation" is, other then it's meaning of complete destruction.

So, are you saying you don't believe in an eternal hell where those who are not written in the Book of Life will spend eternity?

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

im sure Jesus was a thin man yet the pharasees called him a drunkard and a gluton. some times the word gluton doesnt just relate to food as well.

My son is fat. he is way obease. But he used to be skiny. we had to put him on adhd medicine, and these pills cause him to gain weight fast and alot of it.

problem is it doesnt want to come off. exercise videos and work outs or outside running and playing. its hard for him to lose it.

so really im offended at you. so maybe next time why dont you take the log out of your eye before you try to remove the splinter in some one elses ok....

why im upset is you just looked at the mans picture and assumed and then made a judgment call.. Not knowing if that man had conditions or nothing. you just assumed <- and that isnt right at all

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Sorry, but you've assumed. I've already approached UT on this subject in the past and he has admitted his problem in this area. And think about it; you’re doing the same thing I did. You’re mad at me and stating your case, and that’s fine. And here is my rebuttle:

He is the one who was casting stones first, and even went in and edited his post because of offensive comments that he made. Acerrak, I'm no better than you or UT. If you read my responses carefully, I am more than willing to accept that I am not perfect and I don't have all the answers.

When people throw others under the bus because they have God's Judgment figured out, while they are openly in error themselves, I find little tolerance for this. We are all sinners, and we all need God's Mercy. Obesity in the Church is not a Health Problem, it is a Heath Epidemic, and many are laughing at Christians who demand Holiness within and without, when they themselves are a walking time bomb for diabetes, heart disease, premature joint failure, cancer, and other ailments that are placing an insurmountable burden on our Health Care system.

I don't want to Thread-jack the current subject of this Thread, but your son being on this medication is another huge problem in our World today. When I was growing up, kids didn't take this stuff; we were too busy playing outside. Today, kids are consumed with Video Games, Computers, and other things that cause hyperactivity because of the "Lack Of" activity.

It’s proven that this is another grave problem with our modern society, and placing children on medicine is feeding the monster of our pharmaceutical industry, who BTW, is rich beyond our wildest dreams because of "Legal" drug addiction. Pill popping has become the norm, and doctors are being paid off to over-medicate people.

My prayers are with you in attempting to flush those pills, once and for all.

Wow. That is pretty surprising. ;) I actually agree with him on several things.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

i didnt cast a stone. what i did was tell you to take the log out of your eye. and buddy i have tons of logs in mine. i prayed last night to have them removed.

and if you talked with UT about this then keep this in private.

because all i saw was You doing a personal attack cause he didnt agree with your doctrine. That is exactly how it is perceived just to let you know...

and im glad your not my daddy.... we dont need no pills or medicine etc etc. i would be dead if it wasnt for medicine.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

I do not believe the torment of Gehenna will never cease. Both the Old and New Testaments teach us the wages of sin is death.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

A few points and then I'll leave this subject alone.

First, because "All you saw was a personal attack", your assumption flawed a valid response to what actually happened. I think gathering the facts before you say something is important. I’ve noticed that you’re ignoring the particulars of what I actually said, only seeing what you want to see.

Second, keeping the problem in private is OK with me, just don't throw others into Hell because they are in need of repentance, when in fact, you need repentance. When people go public with such statements, they take the chance of having their own life critiqued. (Remember, UT edited his offensive post after I made my statement about it.)

Third, I never said medicine wasn't needed for people who are sick. You are slighting the flow of my posts with shallow jabs that are wrong and you seem to be unwilling to consider the facts. This is the tell-tale sign that you are cornered with the Truth and don’t like it.

If you want to debate, I don't mind, just be honest. I've been debating for many years and I want to learn, including from you, but your pattern of using "quick draw" responses won't edify a solid understanding for either of us. If the Pharmaceutical industry is ethical, or Obesity in this Country is not the number one Health Epidemic, then tell us all why and how you arrived at your conclusion. But, if these are both very serious problems that are staring us in the face, admit it.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend. Just be sure those wounds come from a heart that honestly wants the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, and in the end we will remain Friends. We might even help one another to change for the better.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Thanks to you, this will be my last posting on this forum. I simply cannot take this. For you being a know it all, I was 622 and am down to 350. So, I am showing fruit of repentance. You have a problem with people proclaiming about sin. Your talking about my gluttony, sir, i have long repented of the sin, and have now lost weight. So, you, the UR, the lying on Jesus by denying His deity people, you can have this entire forum. I have just had enough of the nonsense and tolerance of sin.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

, . ive called him out on it and he is just taking cheap shots. he knows it.

unfortunatly it happends, but at the same time, rise above it and be the better man. the dude has some serious issues, and he felt threatened with your post and thus he made a personal attack. i saw it and i am sure others did as well.

its not the way to handle things.

stick around or take a break then come back

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

then please debate but debating in this specific topic had nothing to do with glutony that you brought up out of no where. which was a personal attack against UT.

Re: Hell is Unexplainable?
 

Is that not what happened to those who did not hear, believe and obey
when Jesus told them what to do when they saw some signs. Jerusalem
surrounded by armies. Get out and go to the mountains, Get out and do
not to into Jerusalem. If you are on the rooftop, don't go back down into
your house to get anything., Flee to the mountains, etc., etc.,!!

Those who heard, believed Jesus' words, and obeyed, were not burned
in a furnace of fire as those who did not heed his words. They had ears
but did not "hear". Three and a half years in a furnace of fire.

Just some thoughts!

Falla39