Responding to a Trinitarian
 

So, I have tried to provide an explanation for the Oneness belief to a Trinitarian. He tries to give one for his using three different forms of water, which He said 1.) Ice. 2.) Water. 3.) Air. He tried another one.. where he said to "pretend you are an alien holding a device" and can transform into three things. < Lol. His thoughts being "One alien, three persons." The third, he used his body as an example. He put his hand infront of his face and said "my eyes are are going to tell my hand to move." His hand moves. < He says that's two different things acting but it's still him. ( Like two persons acting but in one essence ). Then he said "my stomach digests food" but I can't tell my stomach to stop doing that. < His thoughts are "part of him is acting that he has no control over" but it is himself. As in, Jesus acts separate from the Father, but is God.

What would you respond with?

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Scripture. The word is sufficient. I've never been smoked by a trinitarian. I have had one that left all huffy...

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

I do agree with Matt, but some people are so carnal that sometimes you may have get em hooked with something like this then go onto scripture but oh my gosh there are so many, but given what he uses as an explanation, try these two.. #1 man is made in the image of God and just as a man has many roles, such as Father brother,son, friend, provider.. ect but he is still only one individual who is made in the image of God, don't forget to emphasize that point,

and #2 usually gets a least a light bulb moment out of them for a minute until their conditioning kicks back in, #2 satan who is the father of lies, and spirit of iniquity will one day inhabit the son of perdition who is also known as the ant-christ and anti means instead of, I guess you can see satan's cheap imitation of who Jesus is here?

I who was a trinitarian for 45yrs who can now say that if there is a trinity than this means that satan will one day accomplish something that God did not.

or look at it like this, if you have one individual who can do the work of three people, and then you have those three people togther that it takes to do the work of the one individual, who is more valuable and efficent? the one individual or the group of three?

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Put your hand out to shake his and welcome him to Modalism

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Water, ice, steam... Shell, white, yolk... whatever...explains manifestations... not persons. Persons are completely separate functioning individuals with interdependence that can be severed... Jesus can not exist without the Father, the Holy Spirit can not exist without Jesus and the Father.

Most Trinnies are cool with Oneness once they understand that we do indeed believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. :)

Does your church have the oneness of God tract with the pie graph? That was powerful stuff for me when I was trying to understand the difference.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Jesus said,"""" MY SHEEP KNOW ME AND HEAR MY VOICE, AND ANOTHER THEY WILL NOT FOLLOW."""""

Why waste your time/

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Many years ago, as a new babe in Christ, I was experiencing difficulty (having a previous Trinitarian background) in understanding the Oneness of God. I went to a man whom I had always believed to be a "real" Christian, seeking his aid in my understanding. For more than an hour I sat and listened to him relate his understanding of the matter. Upon departing, and having only walked a short distance, I heard an audible voice say, "Trust not man and his explanations; seek ye instead God's divine revelation." Immediately I stopped, looked around, but saw no one.

Later that same evening during a conversation with another friend I told him of my efforts to learn the truth of this matter, and he suggested that I accompany him to visit with one of his friends whom he believed to be very knowledgeable about the Bible. So we went to pay his friend a visit. Upon arrival and following a brief introduction, I informed the other fellow of my desire. And I shall never forget his first response....

He opened a drawer, withdrew his Bible and opened it to Matthew 11:27, and asked me to read it. Here is what was written [Jesus speaking]:

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

This man [who is today one of my most cherished friends], then asked me to read the words of Matthew 16:13-17. There I read the following ~

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, "Whom do men say that I, the Son of man am?" And they said, "Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias: and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."
He saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?" And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonna: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

At once I realized that the truth of the Oneness of God comes only by revelation of God, and that this through His written Word. No amount of explanation by any man can ever enable another to come to this revelation, for God has reserved this to Himself alone. So as a result of this discovery, I refrain from trying to explain the Oneness of God to others, but seek instead to assist them to attain a proper understanding of the things which these two portions of the Scriptures reveal. If the seeker's heart is right with God, then God will give them the revelation; but if not, then they will continue in their ignorance of the matter.

Just my thoughts about this important matter, for truly it is, as stated by the Lord Himself, He has established that the God-given revelation of His Oneness is the very foundation of His Church. One cannot be a part of His Church without this revelation, IMHO.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Nice, Paw. That is the best "argument," imo.
(we have a winna...)

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

(we have another winna...)

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

For me and my Trinitarian friends the battle ground is the word "person". In Modalism, each mode has a distinct sense of self-consciousness. For example, the Father has a distinct sense of divine self consciousness. The Son has a distinct sense of human self consciousness. In Trinitarianism a subsistent center of self-consciousness is a person. Therefore, to them, what we call modes are persons. And by their definition they are right. The Modalist defines "person" in a way more akin to how they would describe "being". So we say God is one person in three modes... they say God is a single being in three persons. lol

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

The biggest difference is that we make a BIG deal out of it and most trinnies are blissfully ignorant that there is any difference in what we believe unless we explain it. Having lived some 40 years in trinitarian faiths I can promise you that the majority of mainstream Christians have no idea that Oneness exists. They believe that they believe in one God, the God of the bible and his son Jesus Christ who is God and the Holy Spirit who is also God.

Whether or not we are willing to believe them about that is up to us. :)

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

When we left the Catholic faith the big eye opener for all of us was the invalidity of Saint/Mary worship. Learning about "oneness" was not, and never was, a big revelation for anyone in our family. Learning that it was such a huge point of contention from the point of view of many OP's WAS a bit more revealing.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Let me tell you, it is straight comedy, looking in from without. Modalist clowns. ICP is a better witness, imo.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

I have not found this to be true in my experience. Even now there are thousands of so called "Apologetics" sites on the net that condemn Oneness doctrine. People have been literally killed because they would not accept the Trinity.

It is not a quibble over words. Jesus taught he was our Father come as a man. Trins will never agree to that.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

I have found that many Trinitarians do know about the Oneness issue, although those who are half-hearted, Sunday morning, Christmas, Easter, marryin', and buryin' 'Christsians' are worse than ignorant about any of the Bible doctrines.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Unfortunetly we have those in the Apostolic Diaspora as well.

From my experience the Oneness of God is something that comes by revelation. It effects some and not others. To me that was never a major point of contention. I never believed God was one in three persons. I believed there was a god, didn't know who he was, until I was baptized in that God's name... which I was shown in scripture was Jesus.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

I have to agree with you on that. And many times they are as ignorant of the Bible as anybody else who barely attends church.

My mother has never believed in the Trinity, and she was raised around Baptist and Methodist churches. Even before she set foot in an Apostolic church she was convinced of the Oneness position. This is why I am not sure that it is a necessarily a revelation that God is one. The Bible said that this was to be taught not revealed by Himself. However, it is possible that many people need Him to reveal Himself to them.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Well Jay, your mother and I share that. I never believed in trinity or the 'mystery' theory that was used to explain it. I can remember even in catechism as a child that I did not believe that Mary or the Saints were worthy of the same honor as God or that God was triune.

The reason that I say that many/most trinitarians have no idea is because I have many friends in Baptist ministry and until either Don or I explain to them what is different about our theology they think it's all about standards and speaking in tongues. I live in an area heavily populated by OP's.. I can not go to any of the 4 local walmarts and not see 10 OP women, at least 5 of whom I know. And yet other Christians, not just pew sitters, on my job, in my neighborhood, at the school... have no idea what oneness is. N.O.N.E.

I am not saying that there are not a bunch of wanna-be theologians on the internet debating on both sides... I'm talking about the man on the street. But most, I have found are quick to see the truth of it... they still have no desire to have an ankle length skirt and a big poof of uncut hair and the tongues thing freaks a lot of them out... but One God and Jesus name baptism are two things I never hear much of a fuss against. As a matter of fact many people I've spoken with have asked their own pastors to rebaptize them in Jesus name, asked if my pastor would do it (and a bunch have actually done it) or asked Don and I if we would baptize them in Jesus name... I believe that it is because they are not so very different... just stuck with an explanation that does not completely work for them but is the best thing going as far as they know, just like I was once.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Please tell me the reference to ICP isn't to the band I think its referencing lol.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Water Ice and Steam... All the same substance but each has its own characteristics. This is an analogy that works for both oneness and trinitarianism because we are both trying to explain a single God that is simultaneously three things. It's more an analogy that explains that triunity is possible than it is an analogy that supports any particular form of triunity.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

The trinitarian doctrine does not fully believe that in Christ dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily. They believe He is deity, but in their description of Him, He is a lesser deity than the Father, and not fully God. Makes a big difference, doesn't it.

I experienced this myself among the so-called tolerant trinitarians. They called Oneness heretical and declared us lost. For such tolerant people, they sure are intolerant.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

All his examples except maybe the last ones where he begins talking about parts of himself and calling them himself are examples of triunity and triunity is a concept that both oneness and trinitarians share in common. It's the particulars of that triunity (persons or modes) that makes the difference.

I'm not sure how I would respond to someone referring to part of a person as that person. While its true that I digest food and that my stomach digests food it is not logically correct to then claim that this implies my stomach is me or that I am my stomach.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

I believe the trinitarian claim is co-equality?

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

The "claim" is equality, but the fact is that they hold Jesus as a lesser deity. Take the time to read all they say about Jesus, and how they speak openly how Jesus is not the Father. In other words, with their lips they speak equality, but the totality of their doctrine is far from it. :heeheehee

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

While I'm all for getting to the bottom of what people believe I think most the time people don't really listen to what the other side is saying. Are you sure that's not what you are doing?

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Don't let yourself be fooled. Trinitarian theology is on the up rise. I suggest you get your theology in order to properly witness the gospel and defend the bible.

As far as the trinitarian model of god being co-equal I feel that it's a joke when you really think about it. How when their christ suffered the wrath of the their father were either of them co-equal? Did the father share in the pain? Did the son share in the pleasure? So much for being co-equal.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

I guess as everything it depends on how you define equality ;)

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Since what you said did not make a lick of sense to me, could you expand it a little please? Trinitarian theology has been the majority since 325 AD... what is on 'the uprise'?

I didn't get the rest of what you said either... can you rephrase maybe?

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Well... since there are probably as many views of trinity as there are trinnies and as many views of oneness as there are OPs (or at least that is my experience) I can't completely disagree with you except to say that for you to boldly state what a group of people believe is kind of amazing.

I am a very strict monotheist, possibly a modalist and I am willing to bet (if I were the betting type) that you could not voice my theology accurately. If you tried I would be able to find areas where I was not in agreement... I know this because some have tried and they never get it right from either camp... So I am 100% certain that you have not given a good explanation of what trinitarians believe.

And not you personally really... but everyone who tries to read another person's thoughts, feelings and beliefs.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Wanna explain to me what you disagree with?

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

I'll chime in. From an Apostolic perspective I can't embrace the bolded portions above. If I had to embrace a creed... I'd embrace the Apostle's Creed:

The Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
2. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord;
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell;
5. The third day He rose again from the dead;
6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
7. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit.
9. I believe a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints;
10. The forgiveness of sins;
11. The resurrection of the body;
12. And the life everlasting. AMEN.

Twelve beautiful lines. The creed is actually a perfectly biblical creed. It is also flexible to allow some varience of opinion in some matters (freedom of thought). I considered adopting this creed when I first left the UPCI to establish both a sense of orthodoxy among those I studied with, yet have the credal confession of a more Oneness faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-61M...eature=related

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

All ya hafta do is say "Trinity, Schminity." :lol

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

I grew up reciting the long version in Mass every Sunday and know every word... I love the shorter version too Aquila but every time I think about it now it plays in my head with the voice of Mac Powell. :heeheehee

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

lol

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

That one comes with the voice of Steve Winter...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ez6kKvqdg

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

And here is my objection to this kind of thinking... We have turned the faith of people who love God into a reason for contempt. If I never hear the words "If he didn't get baptised in Jesus Name, all he got was wet" again in my lifetime it will be too soon...

With all the God haters and unbelievers out there it seems we could leave people who are doing their best to love God alone... sheesh!

I always remember that little thing Jesus said... "If they are for me they can't be against me"... something like that...

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

I'm not sure why you object to last 2 things you bolded.

1. Surely if Jesus is God then he in some sense came down from heaven for he was not with us before the incarnation.
2. The bible calls Jesus begotten. And if you believe he was God then he surely wasn't made.

I think you don't really have as much of a problem with those 2 bolds as you said you do...

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

Can i who believe in the holy trinity respond to you?
:highfive
stay kool man, I am solid in my belief in the triune God.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

We're all on a journey. We have to remember that though some are ahead of others on this journey, and while some understand truths of Scripture more perfectly, those who don't agree are also often on the same journey.

Most early Apostolics received the Holy Ghost while still Trinitarian. Many still receive the Holy Ghost while Trinitarian. Those who do, mainly Charismatics, have a view of God that is more modalistic than Trinitarian, though they call themselves Trinitarian. Is this the Spirit revealing truth? I think it is. Many on this forum can testify that they were Trinitarian at one time and that they had experiences in God prior to becoming Oneness. The very same God they experienced led them lovingly into the Oneness camp. They too should remember that bend in their journey and be merciful to others who have yet to arrive at that juncture.

I'm very tolerant to anyone who states that Jesus is God and is one with the Father. Now, if they say that Jesus was just a man or that He is a lesser being... I reject them instantly, unless they demonstrate a willingess to see the Mighty God in Christ.

Re: Responding to a Trinitarian
 

You're right. I don't take a MAJOR issue on those points. However, my issue is that they tend to lend themselves to the doctrine of the Eternal Son of God, thus proclaiming a distinct eternality and pre-existence of His person. The Bible states that Jesus was,

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The man Jesus Christ, was "made".

The distinct "consciousness" that we see in the Son that prays to the Father is pure humanity. It didn't pre-exist as a separate person. He wasn't begotten into the world, he was "made of a woman". The Logos, the very life of God, the living expression of His being that permiates all things, was made flesh. At some point that flesh developed a subsistent conscious reality that didn't pre-exist the incarnation.

Therefore, I have some issues with those particular statements. The Apostle's Creed simply reads:

The Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
2. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord;
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell;
5. The third day He rose again from the dead;
6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
7. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit.
9. I believe a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints;
10. The forgiveness of sins;
11. The resurrection of the body;
12. And the life everlasting. AMEN.

Thus the Apostle's Creed doesn't lend itself to proclaiming that the Son of God pre-existed as a separate person from the Father. The actual words of the creed are actually in harmony with Oneness teaching.