Age of Accountability
 

I was debating a Church member the other day about the Acts 2:38 "Plan of Salvation" asked them if someone was to repent and left church and died in a car accident without the other 2 steps would they be saved. He said not likey,so I said ok what about a wheelchair bound mentally hanidcap person that is not able to complete any of the steps are they saved? He tried to find some Age of Accountabilty scripture which there is not of,this I already knew but let him search anyway,thought I would have alittle fun with him for a little while. After he could not find any scripture,he said he thought they would be saved under the "Age of Accountabilty" rule, so I go to get scripture which I fill debunks the whole "Age of Accountibilty" thing I think,but what do you say????Read Proverbs 20:11 and Psalms 51:5 give your thoughts. This is why I disagree with the Acts 2:38 Plan is because it excludes certain people that cannot be Baptised or have no mental capacity to think on there own. The 2 scriptures above clearly state even as little ones we are aware of our actions..

Re: Age of Accountability
 

To anyone who believes in the age of accountability doctrine, wherein a child that dies young enough (e.g., in infancy) goes to heaven:

Please stop.

Your belief can lead to murder. It's not just one of my hypotheticals, that seem to irritate some people around here ;): it has actually happened. In one case, a mother believed God told her to kill her children to spare them from things to come. If you believe in the age of accountability, you agree with her that her dead children are now in heaven (or soon will be, depending on certain other beliefs), and therefore killing them was a good thing.

So stop. Please.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

? Um, yikes?
Whatever happened to Max Headroom, anyway?
I'll snail-load the Scriptures, and get back to you,
hopefully with a less disturbed reflection.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

Ok, completely ignoring the top part--which imo is asking the wrong Q--the Proverbs Scriptures highlight free will, not sin, I think. A baby can be willful, and is cognizant of wanting to get its way, but not be able to absorb the Law in that area yet, and so not "accountable." Imo.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

You aren't even trying to make sense, so why bother?

All that matters is that he understands himself.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

Does he? :lol

Re: Age of Accountability
 

If you don't know the difference between right from wrong, how can you be held accountable?

Re: Age of Accountability
 

:toofunny

Re: Age of Accountability
 

:lol
For what it's worth, I don't try
to "answer" anymore, but "respond."
It's kind of a work in progress, so
pardon me there.

But really, because some disturbed
woman misinterpreted Scripture and
killed her children, this means that there
is no age of accountability, as a concept?
And I'm not making sense? K.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

Ouch...tough crowd.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

Whether she misinterpreted scripture is irrelevant. I'm am merely giving mu opinion that nobody should believe it, because of the obvious conclusions it leads to. Refute my logic. Please.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

Well, I'd have to get back to you there--I guess "age of accountability" is like "trinity" or something, a concept not specifically mentioned in Scripture...but my knee-jerk answer is that the one shouldn't lead to the other, with a more balanced view of Scripture? Imo, this is what comes from a death-centric view of God; Original Sin; God is out to get you
type thinking.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

What do you believe happens to the souls (or spirits, if you prefer) of babies that die?

Edit: I mean physical death. The kind that you say God doesn't even recognize.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

The only age of accountability I can find is in the OT. 20 years old testified in many scriptures.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

I would relate them to "the sea," or "waters" in
Scripture, and, noting that we only see dimly here,
say that they remain just potential. And I don't mean
that God "doesn't recognize" physical death so much as
that it just has a completely different meaning to Him,
is not important, like spiritual death is.

I say this because even angels can apparently
incarnate at will--I guess even fallen ones.
Christ's example, also, went to some lengths
to illuminate that our human def of physical death
is pretty naive. I'm even suspicious of "...just as it
is given for a man to die once."

Re: Age of Accountability
 

Ya, that one strikes me as temporal accountability; surely there is a spiritual counterpart, tho.

How accountable is, say, a baby boomer,
spoiled from birth? Not all, of course, but
the majority, "the sea." For the record, I am
at the tail end of BB's, my parents at the front;
and they are good hearted people, but there are
conversations that we just can't have--it's like
talking to a little kid. Surely for me, too, with
someone else.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

"And after that, the judgement." So there is (according to the Bible) something after death, and it includes a judgement. What are your views on this, really? Are babies who die judged after death? On what basis would their judgement be?

Re: Age of Accountability
 

Believing in an 'age of accountability' would also strike down the doctrine of 'original sin' which is still highly favored in the church... It says that we were all 'Born in sin and shapen in iniquity' or some such... Basically laying those mistakes in the garden at our feet and making us personally responsible...

I don't believe in original sin, the age of accountability, or a literal hell so the whole concept is a moot point for me but I just thought I'd point out that that if you espouse the doctrine of original sin it's pretty hard to justify the doctrine of age of accountability although I hear preachers do it all the time by turns. :)

Re: Age of Accountability
 

:lol never thought of that; good point
Exactly. Scripture even says that one is a sinner "from their youth," not from birth. My personal feeling, T, just a guess, is that, like, predestination and free will existing side by side, there is some other concept operating here that just wouldn't make much sense to us.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

Scripture isn't clear about it?

Re: Age of Accountability
 

:lol that would be missing the point, imo.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

As usual. :winkgrin

Re: Age of Accountability
 

The doctrines of the age of account ability and original sin are both supported and neither contradicts the other. The age of accountability though never set as a definite age is shown in places like
Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Whereas the doctrine of original sin is shown in such places as

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

They are compatible in that the one says we are born sinners not because we have sinned but because we are from a fallen sinful race and the other says we are not at the place to where we can as of yet be held accountable for our personal actions because we are not at a place where we can understand the concept of consepuences nor can tell the difference between right and wrong.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

I fully understand where you get the idea of original sin from what you posted... I just do not believe that God would be such a monster as to punish someone indefinitely for something an ancestor did...

But I do not see the age of accountability doctrine supported here at all... I get that a child does not know right from wrong to a certain point but I see NO WHERE that this scripture states that God would not punish a child with hell because of that fact. I believe it is simply our sense of justice that tells us that a God like that would be too horrible to contemplate... And that is exactly what leads me to believe that there is no literal hell... So for me it all makes perfect sense even is not supported by the scripture you have cited.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

This passage of scripture may seem to not be in context with this discussion, yet I think there is a point being made here that is worthy to consider.

Read the parable in Luke 13:42-48 It is quite long, but take a minute and read it.

Ok. So, the servant which knew NOT his Lord's will and yet committed things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes. On the other hand, the servant who knew better, had been taught well, and still disobeyed, will be beaten with many stripes.

Then it says for whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him, they will ask the more.

So the question obviously here is... how did one servant know the will of his Lord, and the other not know? The point being made in this passage is that there is a sin of ignorance, for which there is a price to pay. Yet the price for ignorance or not possessing required knowledge is not as bad as knowing, and then not obeying.

Catch my drift?

So in the original post, regarding the age of accountability.... I think this passage actually addresses the multitudes of people across the span of thousands of years who knew the difference between right and wrong, because I believe that is what our conscience is... the knowledge between right and wrong. Yet millions have never heard the gospel taught in its fullness. They will receive some sort of reprimand on judgment day for their ignorance... yet not as great as those who HAVE received the knowledge, and discarded it.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

also Psalm 58:3 seems to indicate sinners by birth

Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. NIV

These wicked people are born sinners;
even from birth they have lied and gone their own way. NLT

The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. NKJV

Re: Age of Accountability
 

When one ties the following verses to gather:

Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

With these following verses:

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Then one can see that a child who does not have an understanding of right and wrong ( duet1:39, isa7:16) cannot have the law because the law is what shows us right from wrong ( rom7:7) and until the law is there to show right from wrong sin is not imputed ( rom5:13) because sin is a transgression of the law.
Just in case someone should mistaken me to be saying that this could apply to adults a brief reading of

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Will show otherwise.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

What you call tying together, I call cherry picking, sorry.

I don't know about your kids but mine could lie proficiently by age 4 to avoid trouble. They would also take things they knew were not thiers even though they knew it was wrong... what I'd call stealing. They were almost from birth selfish and covetess. All these things had to be trained out of them. Original sin is easy for me to see... I only disagree with eternal punishment for it.

Age of accountability... to vague. I know people who would have reached it by age 5 and others who are not there at 50... I still don't see it.

What do you say is 'the' age?

Re: Age of Accountability
 

There is no set age rather when a person understand the difference between right and wrong they are then accountable.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

I can agree with that Luke. That however is NOT how I've heard it preached in the OP church... usually it is that no one knows exactly but somewhere around adolescence. I think that in our society, where we do all we can to keep our children immature, if there is such an age it is certainly getting later and later.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

Actually, after giving it another moments thought... this would make 'age of accountability' a misnomer.

While I believe that some people are not accountable because they can not understand right from wrong... there is no 'age' involved in my view... or yours either it appears Luke. :)

Re: Age of Accountability
 

I agree there is no set age not sure how to state it better though. Maybe place of accountability.

Re: Age of Accountability
 

The doctrine of the Blessed Hope explains and extends grace in areas regarding infants, young children, and the MRDD. Whereas other theological frameworks do not. Most (even the most theologically conservative) believers believe that, in some way, the propitiation of Christ's cross is applied to infants, young children, and the MRDD. In doing this they establish that there is indeed a thread of "exception", and that salvation as we know it isn't always able to be legalistically applied to all in this life. Most who walk after the Spirit can "sense" this reality. However, nearly 1600 years of various church traditions have clouded our spiritual vision.

Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

According to the Blessed Hope, Jesus Christ is truly Saviour of the world.

Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.