Respect as Women
 

Every culture has it's views about women, the place of women, what women should and should not do etc.

One thing people from the outside of the church said when I was in the church, or seemed to indicate, at least, was that women were disrespected and made to wear clothes that the men were not, etc.

Whenever I hear something to that regard, my brain splits into two. I want to tell these dissenters, "But, you do not understand."

First of all, the dissenters that I know are not ex-UPC people. They are sometimes educated, sometimes uneducated, but plain people who know little to nothing about the religious culture I came out of. Because I was not raised in the UPC, nor was my husband, we came in and out of the culture 19 years later, rather seamlessly. So, when people who have never been in the UPC criticize the place and treatment of women, I find myself agreeing to a certain extent, but yet, I also find myself wanting to defend something about a culture they they simply do not understand. I sense their arrogance about their own stance, as if they are better than, or know something that simpletons such as the UPC and other conservative Christian groups do not. I find myself getting aggravated at their judgmentalism, their supposed superiority. People from the outside just don't get it. I find myself shaking my head, wondering how to verbally cross this wide chasm.

On the flip-side, I cannot defend certain things about the UPC treatment of women either, with the exception that most believe it is simply biblical and the UPC people are not trying to disrespect women, but simply trying to live what they believe the Bible to stand for.

I find myself with people that are living in a hook-up culture. A hook-up is a sexual encounter with no strings attached whatsoever. On college campuses, this is practically expected. It is a strange culture that strongly defends women's rights such as the right to not be beaten or verbally abused and to have a career or an abortion. And yet, she is expected to hop in the sack casually with no regard to her emotions.

See, women are respected in the UPC in a way they are not in the world. I can't speak for much beyond what I understand on college campuses as far as what is expected in the dating realm in the world at large. However, I remember from my pre-UPC days in college, it wasn't much better than the hook-up culture back then.

The people looking from the outside in, see women not being allowed to hold high office positions and are frowned upon often as pastors. They are seen as being secondary in marriage, and, depending on how their own husbands treat them in marriage, this can be a blessing or a tragedy. Often, from the outside, the women who were beaten and told to stay in marriage are touted as the way women are treated in conservative circles. This can be true and that is sad. They see how women are taught to cover themselves and be modest so that men are sometimes given a pass to their own responsibilities concerning their own behavior. This is also, sadly, sometimes true.

But they are forgetting that women are held up and respected sexually before marriage as having the right to say no and are even expected to. Women's emotions are respected in this way as being valuable. Women are not to be used and thrown away. Women's bodies are to be respected and are not supposed to be treated like a piece of meat to be used by men. Keeping it covered keeps up with that respect. Keeping pure before marriage teaches both men and women that the sex act brings forth children that are to be cherished and loved. Married women are respected to the extent that they are simply off-limits, period. It is not a game of who can be with who and keep it a secret.

Sadly though, I must say that somehow, things can get twisted. I am not quite sure how this happens. Somehow, the teachings about being modest can get turned around in the eyes of men in the church to think that women who are dressing immodestly want sex rather than that they are ignorant. That's sad because especially young women, often simply do not know.

There should be more talk about men not looking upon women to lust after them and less talk about how women dress. Women should dress modestly, to that I don't disagree. But each household should be allowed to decide what that means. The onus of responsibility for this should not be skewed upon the women.

There are some things I miss about being in the church. People can say how women are looked down upon and made secondary. But they haven't experienced the flip-side of the respect that women are given in the church the way it is not outside of it.

Motherhood is respected. Most women are not expected to hoof it with a full-time job and take care of the kids too. It is generally expected that the man will bring home the bacon so someone can keep the homes fires burning. This gives balance to the pressures of this rat-race world.

I don't want to forget these benefits. I don't want to forget the respect that women are given in the church. I also don't want to forget the abuse that sometimes occurs when people use certain scriptures like swords to abuse women.

I would be interested in hearing feedback on this subject from all.

Re: Respect as Women
 

ILG, I love how you write and put things into perspective. I do agree that more teaching needs to be addressed with the men. It saddens me to see the divorce rate in the church to be as high as it is in the world. Sadder still is that they leave their spouse and find another in the church.

I personally know four women who's spouses left them in my former Upc church. Three of the four men remarried and of those three, two of them married women from another Upc church within a year of divorce. The only man not remarried is a minister...still. Of the four women, only one is remarried and did so about 4 years after her husband left her for another woman. Three of the four couples were married for about 20 years or more.

From what I have personally seen, its the men who leave and find another. The love for their spouse is gone. There is no more respect. Their families are torn apart. And I wont even touch on the affairs that have taken place by ministry and even pastors.

But instead of teaching our men how to love and respect women, we instead focus on teaching women that its their hair and dress that dictates how men treat them.

Re: Respect as Women
 

I wonder if this is why there is so much divorce and affairs. I remember that too when I was there. It was so disheartening. I think that pornography might have a lot to do with the male dissatisfaction. When they watch porn, they think sex is something that God never intended. Women lying to men about it for money, feeding male egos. The egos enlarge to the point that they become dissatisfied with reality.

I had forgotten about the divorce rate in the church. It was that way even before internet porn though. I think maybe the respect for women is supposed to be what is true but it has gotten skewed somehow.

Re: Respect as Women
 

I think respect for women varies among churches.

I've been to some churches where women were definitely treated as second class. It was fairly shocking to me, because that wasn't how it was in the church I grew up in.

Re: Respect as Women
 

What happened there that made you feel they were treated as second class?

Re: Respect as Women
 

Very insightful post, ILG. I appreciate the way you look at all sides of this rubix cube (too many angles to be called a coin).

I would like to comment on the problem of abuse. Generally, men who are prone to be abusive are going to excuse it within whatever framework they can, regardless of whether they offer scripture or other reasons for their behavior. What makes abuse easier for the abuser is isolation--from friends, family and community. The way the conservative church can improve, IMO, is to stop treating situations like an embarrassment to be covered up and learn to step up and protect victims without hesitation or worrying about something becoming public. I don't think it's the conservative dress rules that set the stage for abuse, although those rules can be used as a tool by an abuser. I think it's the all-too-common separation from family, friends and sometimes the community that makes conservative women easy targets.

I agree wholeheartedly that the culture allows for women to fulfill traditional roles to their hearts' content, which is wonderful for women who want to do that. It's been my experience, however, that the Apostolic church needs to improve in this area, and that other denominations are far more supportive of choices to be a SAHM or homeschool.

It's true that motherhood, virtue and marriage are respected, which is a refreshing change from the secular world where motherhood is often seen as the ignorant woman's choice, virtue is laughed at and marriage is optional, if not archaic. I have conveyed to my daughters that our dress standards are largely preferential rather than scriptural (IMO), but that they are associated with a lifestyle that has a lot of benefits. If you choose to discard the rules, you are truly discarding more than that, and decisions to that end need to be made carefully and deliberately.

As a whole, I do think respect for women varies from place to place, and is modeled by the leadership (or not). Men in leadership who have a disdain for women or who disrespect or abuse them are also likely to attract men to their church who want to have a pastor back them up when they want to control their own wives.

I will add this: I'm extremely suspicious of pastors who won't intervene in an abusive situation. IMO, it says loudly and clearly that they are guilty of the same in their own home.

Re: Respect as Women
 

Education regarded as unnecessary for women, tolerating abuse of women, women coming in to clean up after men's events, preaching from the pulpit that clearly indicated women shouldn't do anything without asking a man first.

Re: Respect as Women
 

It isn't that way in our current church, either. Women are definitely respected, and valued equally with men. I'm 100% certain that abuse (for anyone) would never be tolerated, and have seen it dealt with swiftly and directly on one occasion.

Interestingly, my husband commented once about a woman who hadn't allowed him to hold a door open for her, and expressed his frustration since he had only meant to show respect. Our pastor countered with the idea that really such courtesy should be extended to everyone--not just women. It gave both of us something to think about.

Pastor T often talks about respecting people in general, and he definitely strives to do that in dealing with the members of our church. It's an attitude that spreads in a very positive way. In staff meetings, it's stressed that we are to respect church members and one another, and in staff/business meetings, everyone is given an equal voice--male, female, leaders and laymen.

I've been subjected to a very different experience in the past, and I would say that respect is tone that must be set and enforced by the church leadership. (Enforced in the sense that disrespect or abusive behavior will not be tolerated on the part of staff or leadership.)

Re: Respect as Women
 

Can you give examples of this?

I think you are very wise to teach them this. It grieves me that the UPC does not teach this as a whole. The fact that they don't is largely a reason for my estrangement today. Standards taught as salvational is a toxic sickness in the movement. If the standards are beneficial, they should stand on their own as valid. Apparently, people fear so much that they are not valid, that they feel they have to hammer them in and cast people into hell that don't do them. It was this that I felt I had to separate myself from...this toxic sickness, more than the standards themselves. So, I try to hold onto the principles without the standards, which I believe can be done. However, it can be good for children to have a visual. But, as a parent a person has to decided if the visual is more beneficial than the toxicity in the movement which is a shame.

That's true. So, a church can preach and teach the exact same standards while one is abusive and another is not. However, and this is something I find puzzling....it seems that standards can be abused so easily, almost like a glove to a hand of an abuser.
Hmm. In the defense of some, I knew of a woman who was raped by her husband and the pastor was very unsupportive, but he would never treat his wife that way. I never understood his lack of support.

Re: Respect as Women
 

So, why can standards, meant to be good, be so easily abused? Why is this abuse so easily tolerated? For example, wearing pants as a stand against an abusive pastor such as one you mentioned above is seen as anathema but the abuse itself is given a pass?

Re: Respect as Women
 

In my own experience (as both a SAHM mom and homeschooler), almost 100% of the support and resources for homeschooling have come from outside our denomination and organization. Also, I've had to defend both my choice to homeschool and stay at home with my kids to multiple UPCers/pentecostals, but rarely to secular people or people from other religions. I know quite a few men who expect their wives to work--even if they have small children--and are negative about women who choose to stay home. That may not be true of the group as a whole, but it's been my observation/experience.

I'm sure I'm broad brushing with this one, but it does raise my hackles and make me suspicious. It seems to me that a man who is hesitant to defend a woman (or child) might be the same man who is guilty of abuse. Then again, it could be the opposite. Someone who makes a big show of defending women might easily be a hypocrite and abuser at home.

Re: Respect as Women
 

ILG, did you date and marry before or after you joined UPC? How many young people in church do you know whose dating and engagement combined lasted more than six months? three? I'm not convinced that the church puts any less pressure on singles than the world-they only justify it with a quickly prepared ceremony.

Re: Respect as Women
 

Maybe you are right.

I met and dated my husband for two years and we were engaged before we got to the UPC. However, we were living together and the pastor never talked to both of us and asked us our plans etc. He pulled my husband aside, told him we were living in sin and said we needed to get married and that he would not baptize us until we got married. We got married right away, because we wanted to be right with God. Only a few church members were there, not my parents, his Mom or anyone related. So, that was twisted and warped, you know? But ideally, the way things are supposed to be or said to be, it should be a nice courtship with no pressure. so maybe that is just my imaginings of a ideal state??

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Yes, that is sometimes true. In my experience in the UPC, church is supposed to come before family, but in God's true way, it is the other way around.

Re: Respect as Women
 

Could you explain a little more about what you mean here?

Re: Respect as Women
 

I think all of these scenarios are going to vary greatly from church to church. I attended one church where SAHMs were extremely supported - well, more than supported. Women working was greatly discouraged, except for single women.

Another where it was supported, but working moms weren't looked down on. And I've been to churches where SAHMs were looked down upon.

I know of one church where women are treated as second class citizens. Another where they run the place. :D

I think refraining from sex before marriage is the expectation in most denominations.

Re: Respect as Women
 

Yes, this is true. I wonder which denominations are more successful with that? I wonder if there is any way to know? I guess the real question is, which denominations create a respectful atmosphere towards women where their feelings and desires are respected and yet, men's are too? How much of this is based on biblical teaching and how much is cultural? Because, as we all can pretty well see, the larger culture often feigns respect towards women in saying women can have a career and get an abortion because it's "her" body etc. but in reality, women are often disrespected, having to carry the lion's share of work at home while working full time with kids and being expected to "hook-up" before marriage, disregarding her own feelings. Also, in the domestic abuse shelter where I worked for a year and a half, the women who were getting/ gotten abortions....it was usually not their own idea. Often it was pressure from the male who did not wan the responsibility, so it became "you get an abortion or you are completely responsible for this kid". And even the mothers of the women did this same pressure.

Re: Respect as Women
 

I'm not sure this is really a denominational issue. Probably more of a family/culture issue. Culture pervades our churches so much, in every denomination.

I think it is up to parents to demonstrate mutual respect towards each other, and to raise their children to know what that means. To teach our sons and daughter how to respect, and to expect to be respected.

Re: Respect as Women
 

There is such a breakdown in our society in all of these areas. Churches can go a long way in turning this around, for sure. If we have people who are living a committed lifestyle, and people who are willing to learn how to commit.

Older women who are willing (and qualified) to teach the younger is still a very valuable concept. Too many of the young ladies you mentioned above have never had that older, wise woman in their lives.

Re: Respect as Women
 

I wish there had been more teaching on sex when I was younger. Not from the kids at school or even from my parents. The church talked so much about how I should dress, they never taught about how I should act or how to have respect for myself.


About 20 years ago, there were three young women who became pregnant about the same time. Two of them were SS teachers and one was the piano player. Two of them were raised in the church and remain there today. Let's just say they were the ones who got caught.

Re: Respect as Women
 

I've pondered my thoughts on this needful discussion, because the issue presented is one that I have struggled with as well. Equality of women, women in ministry, a woman with a career, and being a mother/homemaker are issues that most women are very familiar with. As a Christian, for a woman trying to find the place she needs to be that is best for her family, and for herself, can be tough, especially in the generation we live in now.

I grew up in OP, and never knew anything but this culture and way of life. I would say even as one other poster did, that most of the time, the OP encourages young people to marry at a young age as a way to deal with the issue of sex before marriage. I don't know that it is so much a respect for a woman, as it is trying to deal with the issue of fornication.

I do think that motherhood is an honored place within the OP ranks, certainly as Titus 2 teaching would indicate.

One of Peter Marshall's sermons, preached back in the 1940s, Keeper of the Springs, I think holds a lot of valuable input for this discussion. The full sermon can be read here.

I like his thought that we as women are "Keepers of the Springs", and I was amazed at his insight more than 60 years ago, and if things were as bad then (as he said they were), I can't imagine what he would have to say today!

Re: Respect as Women
 

Yes. I think way too much time is spent on how to dress/look/act... etc... when young girls need to be taught exactly what young men are thinking when they look at them, and what their bodies and actions do to the thoughts of young men who are dealing with their hormones going crazy as teenagers. And on the flip side - young boys need to be taught by the older men how to deal with their raging hormones, instead of sweeping it all under the carpet and in the end, having to have forced marriages, and unexpected pregnancies.

I am not saying this would completely eradicate the problem, but education in this area would go a long way to preventing many, many heartaches.

I truly believe too... that if more fathers spent time with their daughters explaining actions of young boys... more pregnancies could be prevented, because girls would understand that a boy's reaction to them is not that of love, but of lust, and there is a HUGE difference!

Re: Respect as Women
 

Of all the young people who dated in the Apostolic churches I've attended, I'd say half either had sex before they were married or were married within three months of their first serious date.
In one there was even a long standing rule for how long a couple would be kicked out if they were caught.

I think just like in most other circles, some people were respected and others were not depending on the expectations of the particular group.

Re: Respect as Women
 

I agree' keptbytheword, the marriage thing wa probably more to discourage fornication than oo respect women.

I also agree that in churches I've attended there is a serious lack of teaching people to respect each other or themselves.

Re: Respect as Women
 

I'm male, 35 years old, married for six and half years, with two children, ages 3 and 1. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in Spanish, magna cum laude from UW-Whitewater.

God saved me March 9th, 2003. I was 24. I was, prior to conversion, not raised in any religious belief system at all.

My wife is 28. She received the baptism of the Holy Spirit when she was 5, and was immersed into the name of Jesus Christ two years later when she was 7, along with her mom and dad. She was raised in the Apostolic/Pentecostal faith, attending a UPCI church for most of her life. She has an Associate's Degree in Christian Ministry, magna cum laude, from Apostolic Bible Institute, St. Paul, MN, an UPCI endorsed Bible college.

We currently attend an Apostolic Pentecostal Church affiliated with the UPCI: www.rockofjesus.org.

I present all this to, as one of my sociology professors instructed, reveal my biases.

My wife and I live a very traditional, conservative life. Our church, in some ways, leans conservative, but in other ways, is much more liberal than the average UPCI affiliated assembly (it would be too long of a post to explain everything I mean by this).

Within our local assembly, there is what I consider a wide array of views on the roles of men and women. I do not think any married couple is unduly influenced in any direction, except for constant reminders to seek the Lord and let Him be the governing head and influence in the marriage.

As for me and my wife, we have successfully embraced the teachings of Scriptures, and ours is a very happy marriage. My wife looks to me for leadership, counsel, and decisions, and submits to me as her head, out of respect for God and for me. I look to my wife for help, comfort, counsel, support, and give honor to her as the weaker vessel, leading as her head out of love for God and for her.

When this is done correctly, it really works. IT REALLY WORKS!!! God knows what He is doing. My wife is my best friend, my only truly trusted adviser and compatriot. She is the go-to iron that sharpens me and keeps me intact. My wife admits that except for God, I am the chief source of her personal happiness.

I say all that to say two things:

1.) If women are, in any collective sense, ever disrespected, I look strongly at the men involved, first. A woman may be substandard in speech, action, attitude, appearance, demeanor, and etc., and so fail the grace of God in any number of ways. But so what? Men should rise above their own base natures and, in Christ, treat such a woman better than she might otherwise deserve. Such grace might just help her rise above her own base nature and seek to become more Godly, too.

The fact is, the greater onus is on men. They are chosen of God to be the leaders, the heads, the patriarchs who are to govern their families, and through their families, by extension, all of society. Such extra responsibility and accountability requires greater diligence and effort to meet or exceed God's demands on them.

This isn't to say that women are exempt from any responsibility at all. A woman ought to follow the "Golden Rule" as much as men, and do better by undeserving men than the men are doing by them.

2.) We must never neglect or forget the spiritual side of things. Eve was deceived. Adam openly rebelled. There is a difference in this. Some churches suffer Jezebel. But then again, some churches have a Balaam, too. These spiritual forces, more than just one's carnal nature, are to be blamed for much of what's wrong between the genders.

Our war is not against flesh and blood. The unloveable woman is not the real enemy. The undeserving of respect man isn't the enemy, either. So, if there's such a problem existing in a church, a culture, a society, in a marriage, chances are there is way more at stake, and much more going on than merely the flesh.

If a devil can destroy a family, the society to which that family belongs will suffer. If a devil can undermine a Christian home, the church to which the family belongs will suffer.

When Job, in his trial, was at his worst, it was when? When the devil attacked his flesh. But take a look at what happened when the devil so attacked. His wife turned on him and ordered him to renounce God and die. It wasn't just a physical attack on the man's body. It was also a spiritual attack delivered through the flesh of his flesh, the bone of his bone, i.e. his wife.

If the devil cannot openly destroy a man, he will covertly attack the woman, in order to destroy the man. Why? Because it was only when Adam openly rebelled, that sin was introduced into the world, and death through sin. Had Adam not shared in the fruit, sin and death would not have been introduced. Eve could have been saved from her actions. But once Adam fell, he, through his actions, brought sin and death upon her, and then, to their family, onward to all humans everywhere.

This proves that the men of the world are more responsible and accountable to God for how the world goes. Eve didn't introduce sin and death. Adam did. The devil wasn't interested in Eve falling. He was after Adam through Eve. And the same thing has been true ever since. The devil will pounce on and destroy any woman, Christian or otherwise, if it means he can get to the men of the world.

And, when looking at the world today, I think it's safe to say he has largely succeeded, even in the church. Men, by nature, are suicidal and self-destructive. But men want everyone to go down with them, too, including their women and the children their women give them.

So please, don't neglect or forget the spiritual side of this issue. It's way more pressing than we sometimes realize.

Re: Respect as Women
 

I thought this was a very good write up.

I would like to add that there are many phytoestrogens in the world as well, that attack people on a cellular level, that may actually feminize men to some extent.

Re: Respect as Women
 

After reading a number of posts by people who were in the church at a young age and felt that there was less respect for women and more pressure to avoid fornication involved, it got me to thinking. I had a dream back when. I believed in the dream. I loved the dream. Right after I was saved, and had a truly miraculous conversion, I was full of God, love and hope. I transferred all this hope into what I was taught. I would like to write up the standards that were taught, what I believed about them and what I came to believe the church actually taught...which was different than what I actually believed. These differences were so pronounced, they caused me to leave the church, believing the whole movement was toxic.

Make-up:
What I believed the teaching represented:
1. I was beautiful just the way I was.
2. I did not need to be any more than just what I was and who I was and I did not need to try and please men with my looks the way the media teaches.
3. The men in the church believed and respected this.
4. I was free and accepted as a woman rather than a sex object for men to behold.

What the church seems to have taught in reality:
1. Women who wear make-up are whores who want sex.
2. Women who wear make-up are lost.
3. Women who wear make-up are spiritual Jezebels wanting to seduce men.
4. If you wear make-up, ever, for any reason, you are backslid and will be cast into outer darkness.

I was so confused by this. What I saw as a beautiful message became twisted into something so ugly. If the church taught and believed what I had initially thought, only compassion would be shown to those who stray, there would be no need for hell-fire and Jezebel-harlot teachings. The first set of teachings are beautiful. The second set are so twisted to be so ugly, and, I believe, an abomination to God.

Pants on Women
What I originally thought and believed:
1. Being a woman is special and should be respected.
2. I don't have to try and be like a man because there was a special place for me in this world and that place mattered and I did not have to be ashamed of it.
3. Feeling feminine, rather than masculine, for women is good. You don't have to run the rat race, burn your bra, and try to be tough. You can be soft, feminine you.
4. You can be respected for who you are and what you are and wearing a dress represents this in a traditional way, reminding yourself and others that being a woman is important and good.

What the church ends up teaching instead:
1. Women who wear pants are an abomination to God.
2. Women who wear pants promote homosexuality (took right out of a book by DK Bernard) because they blur the sex lines.
3. Women who wear pants are backslid and God-haters.
4. Women who wear pants want to be men.

Again, if the church was confident in it's stance and actually believed the first set rather than the second, you would see only compassion towards people who are different than they are. Instead, there is a sheer ugliness and vitriol towards those who are different than them, much like the Westboro Baptist Church is to homosexuals. You may not believe homosexuality is right, but in the Westboro church, there is a sick vitriol towards them. I would rather hang around with some homosexuals than I would the Westboro church.

Jewelry
What I believed:
1. I am beautiful just as I am. I am a jewel of God.
2. Jewelry can be about status. Status is not important. We are all important as individuals no matter how much money we have.
3. We should not flaunt ourselves.

What the church taught:
1. Status means a lot. Wear any jewelry that you can, like wedding rings, tie tacks, hair doo-thingy's etc. but NOT necklaces or you will get into trouble.

Costly array:
What I believed:
1. Same as jewelry. We should not flaunt ourselves. We are important AS A PERSON, not for what we wear.

Church:
1. Not addressed. Please, by all means, wear as expensive clothes as you can, especially at general conference, to show off.

Hair,
What I believed:
1. Long hair was, again, a feminine attribute, that was something that reminded women that we are special for who we are.
2. Long hair was a sign of who I was in the order of God, something I was not ashamed of.

Church:
1. If you trim your hair a teeny bit, you are going to hell.
2. Your uncut hair mans you are second to your husband and he's over you. If you cut your hair, the angels will wreak havoc and your husband could have an affair and that would be your fault. (Have you read some of Ruth Reider's stuff??)

Again, when I entered the church, I only saw the good of these things and did so for 16 years. My internal beliefs and relationship with God held onto these things and lifted me up. But the beliefs of the church, the negativity, the toxicity was a constant wearing and I was also a Pharisee in the things I said because I parroted the party lines but did not know how to express what was in my heart and what I truly believed.

Now, I am free to believe what I believe without toxicity. I don't attend church. I have great fear of my beautiful beliefs being sullied by some church's dogma. My dreams have been shattered. However, slowly, rising up out of the dust, these broken pieces are being put back together. I don't know how it will end. I don't know what I will do or where I will go. But, going on 9 years after leaving, I am finally starting to feel myself again sometimes. I get wistful as I have off and on over these past years. Spiritually, I don't know who I am or where I am going. That is so different from what I used to know. But, I know WHO I am kept by. That's really all that matters to me.

Comments welcome.

Re: Respect as Women
 

Love you, ILG!

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Votivesoul... this is beautiful, and you are right, it really does work. I can attest to that in my own home as well. Thank you for expressing it so beautifully.

Yes, what you are saying is so true. Because of our emotional natures, women are at more risk of being deceived, but when the men who are given natures by God to protect and keep us safe from deception fail to lovingly do so, we see the mess of the world that we are in today. I appreciate you sharing who you are and where you are coming from, and I appreciate your willingness to teach the truth of just how God created man and women, how different we are, and yet, how much we were created for each other.

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Wow! I've never heard this put so eloquently before, and the truth of it should rock every person's world who believes that the church has a right to teach hell fire and brimstone at the cost of subverting a beautiful teaching as it should have been taught.

I pray that every pastor who believes the clothesline standard will read this, and thoughtfully reconsider how they are presenting their version of holiness or righteous living. Just maybe, enough people will begin to realize that threatening people with hell fire, judgement, and so on, is far from where this message was intended to go.

I pray that the original presentation, as so eloquently expressed by ILG, would begin to be presented to women, instead of the judgmental, hell fire, salvation-basis, what a difference it would make!!

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:) Thanks!

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Thanks, KBTW. I have tears in my eyes, because I truly believed and loved this message and gave 19 years to it. When I walked away, I was abused ( after having been abused in the church for years), called backslid, a heretic and all kinds of horrible names. It just proved to me what I knew to be true. The movement is toxic.

Re: Respect as Women
 

You have a voice, ILG, and it has a strong resounding, beautiful message. The Lord is restoring you to bring this message loud and clear to those who will hear it.

Re: Respect as Women
 

Well your piece sounds like an apology a Muslim woman would use to excuse that religion abusive behavior toward women.

Jesus was not a person who accepted social norms regarding women.
According to the social norms of that day, he a Jew was not supposed to talk to a woman alone, much less a Samaritan woman.

A person in religious slavery only knows that state and they find excuses for their state instead of seeking liberation from the chains.

The chauvinist pastors twist the language of the Bible to keep women in mental slavery with the threat of hell or that they will turn into Jezebels if they somehow seek more freedom.

Re: Respect as Women
 

Thanks. I appreciate your support. I was a preacher/minister once. Then, I was a rose crushed underfoot. Hard to say where life will take me. ;) Anyway, you are a sweetie.

Re: Respect as Women
 

Yes, I agree. That's why I left and am still out. Anyway, a muslim woman can no doubt find beneficial things to her faith. Otherwise, why has she stayed? I don't see it as an all or nothing thing, necessarily. Unfortunately, the toxicity in the church forces many to choose.

Re: Respect as Women
 

If, and this is a big IF... salvation/judgment/hell could be loosed from the original design of God for women..... what joy could come through knowing you are beautiful just the way the Lord created you, what joy could be in the heart of women to know that you don't have to be a sex symbol in order to find security, and a husband who loves you.

I think the main issue here is that salvation is tied to these issues, when it should not be.

IF salvation/judgment could be loosed from the message, I believe that in turn many many many women would willingly chose this liberating message, but the way it is presented now is exactly what ILG terms it... toxic. It kills. It destroys.

Re: Respect as Women
 

God has a plan for your life!!! Whatever it is, and wherever it takes you.... it will be beautiful!!! :highfive

Re: Respect as Women
 

Yes, please elaborate a little more. After ILG's posts, I am curious to hear more. Should be interesting.

Re: Respect as Women
 

I'll attempt to explain, but this is something that has come up in bits and pieces over the course of years of conversations. It's a complex topic that is hard to parse into a few paragraphs.

We've never taught our daughters that the traditional dress standards are scriptural (unless they can be clearly found in scripture). We have always taught them to be modest, to be feminine and to be classy/appropriate. IMO (and in my husband's opinion), most standards are applications of scriptural ideas or principles, but the rules themselves are obviously not clearly spelled out. Because of that, we wanted to present dress rules to them in THAT way, and not in the traditional "you have to do this or you'll go to hell." To have done that would have been lying, at least for us. We've also taught them the importance of obeying church leadership, even when you don't agree with a rule.

All that said, our girls have grown up with a clear understanding of the difference between something being clearly scriptural and something being a "preference" or simply a church teaching (that doesn't affect their salvation).

With that foundation, I have presented to my daughters the idea that living modestly and conservatively affords certain benefits that women who dress immodestly can't enjoy. There's simplicity in making modest choices, dressing modestly often commands respect from others, and in some ways it can be protective. Of course, I also extend this to behavior--not just the way we dress--but I do believe that how you present yourself to others affects the way they treat you.

Also, if my daughters want an Apostolic man who lives according to certain sets of values, then they will probably have to conform to the dress standards that accompany those values. To that end, we've recently had conversations in our home, as the girls get older, about the "bait and switch" routine. That's where a woman follows the rules until she gets married and then drops them because she never really wanted to follow them in the first place. One of my girls is interested in an ultra-con boy, and I had a serious discussion with her about the importance of accepting the rules that go along with the *lifestyle* for the long term and whether or not that was doable. For the good of the relationship, you have to go into with your eyes open, knowing that you can accept living by a set of rules even if you don't necessarily think they're biblical or necessary. What can be even more difficult is making your own children follow those rules, and we talked about that, too. We didn't just discuss that from the point of view of "you'll have to choose this", but more from the POV of "think hard before you accept a lifestyle, because it's a longterm choice."

Simply put, I like my conservative lifestyle, and while there are issues I find troublesome, I think overall that choosing to be an Apostolic women is similar to choosing to be a Muslim woman or an Orthodox Jewish woman, etc. There are trade-offs and there are benefits, and pragmatism is a necessity to survival and peace. Depending on the personality of the woman, it can be difficult or it can be easy. I don't find rules hard to follow, even if I find them disagreeable. I realize that isn't every woman's experience, and I think I've just tried to give my girls the benefit of my experience. Which is: In spite of the fact that I don't agree with every standard or guideline, my overall experience in the Apostolic church has been positive and beneficial to my life--as a Christian and as a woman.