Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Has anyone come across the idea that the Tetragrammaton (yod hay vov hay) is actually supposed to be pronounced Ya-Ho-Ah (or possibly Ya-Hoo-Ah)?

The idea is that the first syllable, made up of the yod and hay is correctly pronounced "yah" as in the word hallelujah which means "praise ye Yah".

Then, the next letter, the vov is actually supposed to be pronounced like an "o" or "u". An example given is the name Eliljah in Hebrew, which is pronounced and transliterated Eli-Yahu, or Yah is my God (Consider also Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu).

Further evidence is given from the Hebrew name of Jesus, which is Yehoshua. It is spelled yod hay vov shin vov ayin in which, both uses of vov demonstrate, not a "v" or "w" sound (as in Jehova or Yahweh) but rather an o/u sound.

And finally, since the name ends with hay, as in other Hebrew words/names, when they end the same way (i.e. with a hay) it makes for a barely aspirated "ah" sound).

Putting it all together then, the Tetragrammaton should be pronounced thusly:

Yah-(as in hallelujah)-O/OO-(from the vov being pronounced like an o/u as in the name Yehoshua or "Yah saves")-ah (as in the small aspirated sound from any Hebrew word or name that ends in hay

Ya-ho-ah

What do you all think?

Personally, I've seen such an idea casually dismissed, but I've never seen anyone offer proof that such a dismissal is warranted.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Brother, I believe that the closest record of an original name of the messiah was in Greek. The name given to Mary as the "common" language of their day was "Iesous".

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Seeings that nobody really knows but God this sounds as good as any other theory...




Course, it can only be a theory like the others.

No way to prove it any more than the others.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Brother, If you would like to dsicuss it further, start a thread in the debate room, I may not notice this again. I found this thread by accident... Thanks

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Well, there are NO(0)ZERO ancient Hebrew New Testament manuscripts in existence today anywhere in the world. The Greek text is the primary text that are used to give us our New Testament(about 5000 copies). The name "Iesous" is the name found in the Greek text. Any modern Hebrew New Testament writings that exist today are "transliterations" from the Greek Text. Therefore the name Yashua or Yehoshua etc... are fabricated names from manuscripts that do not exist. (IT IS JUST ANOTHER ASSAULT ON THE NAME OF Iesous or JESUS)

I was oblivious to all of this until the new JEWISH JESUS thing started to sweep into Christianity years ago.

Daniel Seagraves did a book on the subject(The name of Jesus is not Yeshua) that is fascinating and eye opening.

This movement is akin to the JWs.(they are attacking the translators, your bible and the name of Jesus).

I should know, I spent about 160 hours debating them face to face last year.(these were law keeping oneness pentecostals...)

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Sounds good to me.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Well our whole Christianity comes from Jewish roots, so obviously the name of God and of Jesus must have originally been Jewish, in the region of Galilee the main language was Aramaic a close descendent of the old Hebrew language.

Now there are plenty of variations on the Hebrew Tetagramathon YHWH, so it is possible one of those variations might be the actual way it was pronounced.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

How many people do you know that have ancestors that arrived in this country(not speaking English), and in 100 years, their modern family members still speak the same language "only" that their great grandparents spoke???? I know of none...

The Jews were under "domination" and scattered all over into the nations of the world powers of their day. OVER 500 YEARS. They ALL spoke Greek in the days of the messiah. They HAD to, to survive...That was the language of the ROMAN EMPIRE. Do you know one African American (descendent) living here that speaks one sentence of the African dialect? 150 years later. I do not know even one.


The Bible says "in the fullness of time...God sent forth His Son"....Why did God choose to do this when they(Jews) were occupied by Gentile powers???...Because the Jews originally had an exclusive language. it (the Hebrew language) would have left out ALL Gentiles...That is why God waited to get the "gospel" into the hands of ALL men, immediately, by having it written in the most widely known "LANGUAGE OF THE DAY"... Greek.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

This isn't meant as a debate. It's only to gather thoughts on the ideas presented, especially how casually the pronunciation of Yahoah gets dismissed without any linguistic evidence.

This isn't a sacred name argument for Yahshua or any of that.

I have no problem with the name Jesus, Iesous, Joshua, Jeshua, Yeshua, Yehoshua, Jesu, Yesu, and/or even Issa, and etc. They are all the same name just in different languages.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Ditto's. And how could it be that the most important name in the Jewish scriptures got lost? I usually use the short version YAH by Psalms 68:4.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Ok brothers, no prob...I just wanted to put some info out there. Thanks

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

YAH is used in the New Testament for God at least 4 times.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

The writing on the cross of Jesus was written in three languages
Greek, Hebrew and Latin.

Years later when Paul was about to be killed by a crowd in Jerusalem, Paul spoke to them in Hebrew.
there are still documents of that era that were written in Hebrew and some even in Aramaic. so it is obvious that the Hebrew language was still around.

Jesus was raised in Galilee a backwater of Israel, where they definitely spoke Aramaic.

In Mexico, there are still native tribes which do not speak Spanish at all and they still have survived for hundredths of years. Of course they live in isolation, but they still have their ancient languages and traditions. Here in America I have met some of them which have a basic grasp of Spanish, but mostly speak their own native language.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Yah is an abbreviation of the Tetragrammaton YHWH.

If your name is Robert then an abbreviation would be Bob.
If your name was William then an abbreviation would be Will.

It is not the full name of YHWH.
Even if Yah was the correct pronunciation of the first part, then you would have to find out the pronunciation for the rest of the name.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Which has been an interest of mine for a long time. I see no linguistic reason why Yahoah, as presented, is unacceptable. If someone could show me where or how the language doesn't permit such a pronunciation, I would be grateful for he info.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

I have a table that shows over a hundredth ways that the Tetragrammaton YHWH is spelled or pronounced.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

My point brothers is that the New Testament was not written in Hebrew(Aramaic is not Hebrew at all)...There are folks trying to claim it was, and tell us our Greek translations are full of errors and cannot be trusted. They tell us the Hebrew N.T.(that doesnt exist) is the only accurate source we have. The N.T. they use is transliterated from Greek and think it is from original Hebrew(they are told). They have been snookered by this group. Even the Old Testament was (transliterated) into Greek(Septuagint)in the days before Christ because everyone spoke Greek in the times of Christ. There are NO ancient (Hebrew) New Testament manuscripts in the world today. If they actually had at least one, they would have an argument.

I am not debating anyone but I did my research last year on this subject. I spent a lot of time debating some friends I care about that fell into this stuff. They went from running the aisles(in Pentecostal churches) to wearing strange hats and garments keeping O.T. feast days, Sabbaths, Blowing rams horns, long flowing beards(trying to look like rabbis) and trying to Keep the Law of Moses the best they can(they dont say Jesus anymore, they call Him Yashua)which they claim comes from the "Hebrew" N.T.. Every time I showed them their errors in the N.T., they would tell me the N.T. could not be trusted because our Bible is written in Hebrew. They completely excused Galatians as translator errors. They even said "Paul was wrong" when I backed them into a corner. This is just a warning to my brothers....do not try to insert "Hebrew" meanings into the New Testament...it doesnt exist.

Thanks guys for hearing me out. There is a "fascination" these days even with High Ranking ministers to get more "Jewish" in our worship. I believe this has opened the door to this trend.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Christianity has deep Jewish roots.
all the early Christians were 100% Jews.
Our whole Bible is 100 % percent Jewish, even Luke is considered by some to have been a Jew from the diaspora.

It was later on when animosity between the Jewish and the gentile Christian split Christianity and Christianity begun to take an anti-jewish character.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

It does not matter that it is an abbreviation. The name YAH stands alone many places in the OT and at least 4 times in the New.

Would it be great to know the full name in exactness? Sure.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

My interest goes back to the early 1980's. It always rang true to me that since all these things happened in a Hebrew context those involved had Hebrew names.

My understanding is that according to the Massorite Text if we go by the vowel points it would read Yehovah. Then other "experts" say the v should be sounded as a w rendering it more like Yehowah or "Yehoah". And yes I have noticed it written or spoken as such various times on the net.

Then of course comes the next group of experts to say the Massorites deliberately put the vowels that belong to Adonai into YHWH to prompt the reader to say "Adonai" instead of the name.

I DO feel it is important as an issue but certainly not to the point of it being essential to salvation.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Brother Michael, are you saying using any of these names in the place(in replacement of) of the name Jesus?... I am not clear if you are just using other names of Jehovah regarding the O.T. name of God. If you could clarify, I may be able to give my opinion. Thanks bro.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

I generally call Jesus "Yeshuah" or "Yeshua" they have the same sound. I tell no one they must call Yeshua by his Hebrew name. If they do that is a good thing. If one says its essential to salvation I would disagree.

I began baptizing in the Hebrew name in 1983. Nothing wrong with that. Why would one want to contend against the fact the Hebrew Messiah had a Hebrew name?

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

what is your formula for baptism? just out of curiosity.

Is it
I baptize you or I immerse you or I mikvah you
in the name of
Adonai Yeshua hamashia or Yeshua hamashia or Yeshua
or some other variation?

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

If you brothers baptize that way, do you pray for healings, signs and wonders, exorcisms in the name Yeshua also?... Are you seeing results?
I am not criticizing. I actually would like to know. It never crossed my mind in the debates I was in last year to ask. Thank you Bro. Michael.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

I have cast out demons in Yeshua's name.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Most always over the years in the name of "Yeshua The Messiah". I have baptized a few in the name of Jesus Christ.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Ok brother, if it works for you I will leave it up to you. I just hope you read my previous threads about the non existent Hebrew New Testament. I am concerned only about making sure I am using the Name of the messiah as close as possible to the original New Testament words. Maybe its ok, I have no idea...The Greek works better in my conscience for me. Iesous sounds more like Jesus. Thanks for your input bro. I will leave it at that...My problem is I am a Gentile and my (debate) friends and (some ministers) are being "pretend" Jews. I cant mimic that. God never called me to get into that. God Bless, thanks again.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

These are all valid concerns. But note, no one here is doing or even advocating such. :)

This isn't really about anything in the New Testament at all, except for how it relates back to the name of God in the Old Testament.

But I will say this:

Although we only have Greek manuscripts, and even if none of the New Testament was never first written in Hebrew (a point I am willing to concede), we can still use some common sense.

In an Aramaic speaking region like the Galiyl (i.e. Galilee), where an angel named G'vri-EL (i.e. Gabriel) visited a young virgen named Miryiam (i.e. Mary) espoused to a man named Yusef (i.e. Joseph) we might readily and correctly assume that when this malakh elohim spoke to her in what is probably the only language she was fully capable of speaking, which would have been her native tongue of Aramaic, he in fact did so.

Thus, though all the manuscript evidence points to a Greek version of the name Jesus (i.e. Iesous), we can nonetheless admit that the angel told her and her fiance to name the child Yeshua.

And undoubtedly, when they took the Moschiach to be circumcised on the 8th day according to Jewish law and custom, when asked the name of the child, it would be an injustice to assume, that in that present moment, Miryiam and Yusef uttered the Greek version of His name.

Will we ever know for sure? Not this side of heaven. But it does no damage to the Lord to say in Hebrew, His name is Yehoshua and in Aramaic, it is Yeshua; that both His mother and step-father spoke Aramaic, that the angel who visited them therefore spoke to them in a language they could understand, and onward.

The name of Jesus isn't denigrated to a lesser value, any more than John is less of a name than Juan, Sean, Jean, Ivan, or Yochanan. It's all the same name.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

When I was leading the Spanish ministry at my local assembly, I immersed native Spanish speakers using the following phraseology:

"Te/Se bautizo en el nombre de Jesucristo para el perdon de tus/sus pecados".

I have seen people receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit as I laid hands on them and prayed for them in the Spanish version of the name of Jesus, too.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

I have seen the same thing and am of the same mind.

I've often wondered why the God who said "this is my name forever" allowed the pronunciation of the name to be lost.

I know humans have free will and if a culture of people like the ancient Jews stopped verbalizing the Name, then I can see how God would allow the freedom of that will to endure unviolated even to the point of making the exact saying of His Name extinct.

But then, when I look at the basic premise of the language itself, apart from any theological consideration or ramification, it appears the summation provided in the original post is as valid as they come. Final? Can't say for sure.

I was recently speaking with a JW, who told me that, although Jehova is pretty much settled upon, they don't think it's a perfect pronunciation either. His comments were not organizational; merely personal. But what he said was this:

Just as a loving father wouldn't get mad at his kids if they for some reason weren't able to perfectly speak his name, so too does God not get mad that we can't say His name perfectly, even though we try.

I don't know if that's official, or just his subjective understanding, but I thought it was interesting. A nice little insight for a rainy day.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Brethren, if you have not seen the little book,( Daniel Seagraves whom i know personally), made a book called '"the messiahs name is Jesus. not Yahshua". It, in his research is not a word at all. He said it is fabricated and he makes some really good points of it. It is small, easy reading and inexpensive. I recommend it here brothers. I have it and it set me on a path of research to say what I have said...God Bless

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

There are some good points in this book. It actually moved me from Yahshua to Yeshua. However the more I have studied I see weaknesses in his book. I cant find my copy now to engage strongly about it.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Ok, have a great day

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

I may use Yeshua, Iesou, or Jesus in my prayer time. I used to use Yeshua most of the time in talking with others. But coming to the internet and trying to communicate on forums like this I have learned you get questioned or hammered a lot over it.

Jesus is fine. The most beautiful name in the English language. If anyone seeks deeper truth about the name I am glad to tell what I know.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

I've read the book, Sean.

I agree: YAHshua isn't anywhere near a legitimate name. Yeshua, however, is very much so.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Brothers I do realize that the Lord knows the languages that we speak and He can translate them in His thoughts. My only concern with last years group I mentioned is If someone just made Yeshua,,,etc. completely up(with the history I gave in early threads). Like calling the Name of Jesus, Joe or something. I am not sure if i used Joe in water baptism etc. If God understands I mean Jesus.(this is a hypothetical situation). I thought those guys last year may have been using an invented name started by groups like "119" on the net. and I was getting red flags in my mind. Im sure you could understand what I was dealing with.

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Now supposed for the sake of argument that Jesus actual name was William, would God get offended if we baptized in the name of Will, Willie or Bill?

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Probably not unless you add CLINTON to it...LOL

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

I ran across this a few months back and tried to do some research of my own. The only thing I found is that most of the people who espouse this have serious doctrinal issues in other areas. One of those being this is the only way to pronounce God's name and all others will go to hell. It may not be the case that all of them are this way, but this seems to me to be cultish in its origin and much of its usage as well.

If the Jews don't even know how it is pronounced, it is unlikely we will ever know ... at least outside of the name of Jesus!! When you have Jesus, you have the Father!

Re: Thoughts on Yahoah???
 

Hmmm. Yahshua (refuted by Seagraves) is actually closer to the name than Jesus. The pronounciation of it can be almost indistinguishable from Yeshua.