I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Father?
 

Seems I was mistaken? I keep running into people who identify as "apostolic" and "oneness" who nevertheless believe and teach "Jesus is not God", or that Jesus is NOT the Father, that he is only " indwelt" by Deity and is not Himself the Supreme Deity, and other similar types of things.

Did I get on the wrong bus? Should I get off ASAP?

I was blown away when I discovered there were "apostolics" who didn't believe in the new birth of water and Spirit, or who didn't believe that baptism in the Name is FOR (not "because of") the remission of sins. But the last several years seems there is a rapidly growing number of apostolic oneness pentecostal believers who aren't even oneness - at least not as I understand the term...

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Just about everyone you talk to has a different spin on how to explain their way of understanding the Godhead, it seems.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

I know Jesus is the Father
I know Jesus is the Son
I know Jesus is the Holy Ghost
And all these three are One!

:shockamoo

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Yup, grew up singing that song ... know it quite well! Let me tell you who Jesus is! :)

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=33326

In this poll from 2011 54% of posters here denied Jesus is the Father.

A person is not apostolic if they don't believe Jesus is the Father

People are not studying and are not receiving teaching nowadays. Sad.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

By and large modern Oneness teachers are doing a terrible job with the most wonderful doctrine. I see Oneness believers being humiliated by Trins a lot on Paltalk.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Agreed. When I was Trinitarian and accepted Oneness I then considered myself "Apostolic".

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

There are churches within the UPCI whose Pastor's teach that Jesus Christ is not the Father.

The Pastor's teach this because they choose to follow the Bible, not add to the Bible.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

If he ain't the father, then he ain't God.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

For all this talk about Jesus BEING the Father, I find it interesting that the clear identity that Jesus Christ Himself embraced is that of the Son.

"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

"Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you..."

"Upon this Rock I will build my church..."

What rock? The rock of the identity of Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

One problem is that more than one group use the term Apostolic. I told someone from Indiana that I was Apostolic and he thought I was part of a group in Indiana that was similar to Universalists (or something else crazy). Another thought I was an offshoot of Catholics and he said that's what he was too. He was similar to Lutheran.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Those are Unitarians.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

He was the son in his humanity, but he did claim to be the father and Isaiah said he was:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa. 9:6 KJV)

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (Jn. 8:58 KJV)

I and my Father are one. (Jn. 10:30 KJV)

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (Jn. 14:8-9 KJV)

There are too many verses that identify the deity of Jesus as Jehovah. Unless you believe in more than one Jehovah there's no way Jesus is not the Father.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Such polls are deceptive. By "Is Jesus the Father" do you mean "Is the Son the Father?"? To which even David Bernard recognizes the distinction.

When we say "Jesus is the Father", everyone else (Trinitarians, Unitarians, Arians, Jews and Muslims) believe we are saying the Son is the Father without distinction

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Yep, I don't know what to do with that scripture. However, we have thousands of years of Christianity and hardly anyone has ever had the understanding of that scripture or any scripture that the Oneness Pentecostals teach. Why is that?


A reference to Jesus' Identity as GOD, but not necessarily the Father.


One, as in the SAME? Not buying it.

The Son is the image of the Father. However, He is still the Son. He clearly accepts His Identity as the Son, which was revealed by the Holy Spirit to Peter.


If that was really true, then the vast majority Christian history would be filled with people who shared the Oneness Pentecostal view of Christ. However, the opposite is true and Oneness Pentecostal damns 97% or more of over 2,000 years of Christians to hell without any chance of redemption simply because they understood God wrong, were baptized the wrong way, didn't speak in tongues?

Does anyone see the logic in doing that?

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Can you give a specific example of where you have seen a Apostolic say that Jesus is not God?

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

I chose my words carefully. Jesus is the Father. The Son is not the Father. I would think apostolics would know that distinction, as per the issue at hand.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Im not sure all Apostolics DO know the distinction...most of the time it's just not explained. Rather they get taught in sound bytes or bumper sticker theology...

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

I can't tell you how many "Apostolics" I run into that seem to describe two persons, the Father and the Son. The Father is God and the Son is just a man...they swear by Bernards books

Then there are those that have two somethings...the Father is Spirit and the Son is just a skin suit God puts on


And yes I have run into those that swear the Father is the Son or the Son is the Father.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

So then Jesus is not God, right?

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Ignorance abounds. Wow.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Wrong.

"Before Abraham was, I AM."

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

But why are so many people claiming to be Oneness who deny the very foundation core concept of Oneness?

Makes my head spin. Why don't they call themselves "JesusisnotGodians"?

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

They don't know what they're talking about. Seriously.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Originally Posted by randyabrown View Post
There are too many verses that identify the deity of Jesus as Jehovah. Unless you believe in more than one Jehovah there's no way Jesus is not the Father.

According to Scripture it's really true:

Jehovah - Almighty Genesis 17:1

Jesus - Almighty Revelation 1:8

Jehovah - I AM Exodus 3:14-16

Jesus - I am John 8:58

Jehovah - Rock Psalm 18:2; 28:1

Jesus - Rock I Corinthians 10:4

Jehovah - Horn of Salvation Psalm 18:2

Jesus - Horn of Salvation Luke 1:69

Jehovah - Good Shepherd Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11

Jesus - Good Shepherd, John 10:11; Great Shepherd Hebrews 13:20; Chief Shepherd I Peter 5:4

Jehovah - King of Glory Psalm 24:7-10

Jesus - Lord of Glory I Corinthians 2:8

Jehovah - Light Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:19

Jesus - Light John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23

Jehovah - Salvation Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2

Jesus - Only Salvation Acts 4:10-12

Jehovah - Lord of lords Psalm 136:3

Jesus - Lord of lords Revelation 19:16

Jehovah - Holy One Isaiah 12:6

Jesus - Holy One Acts 2:27

Jehovah - Lawgiver Isaiah 33:22

Jesus - Testator of the First Testament (the Law) Hebrews 9:14-17

Jehovah - Judge Isaiah 33:22; Acts 10:42

Jesus - Judge Micah 5:1

Jehovah - First and Last Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12

Jesus - Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last Revelation 1:8, 22:13

Jehovah - Only Savior Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16

Jesus - Savior Titus 2:13; 3:6

Jehovah - Giver Spiritual Water of Isaiah 44:3; 55:1

Jesus - Giver of Living Water John 4:10-14; 7:38-39

Jehovah - King of Israel Isaiah 44:6

Jesus - King of Israel, King of kings John 1:49; Revelation 19:6

Jehovah - Only Creator Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13

Jesus - Creator of Everything John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:10;

Jehovah - Only Just God Isaiah 45:21

Jesus - Just One Acts 7:52

Jehovah - Redeemer Isaiah 54:5; 60:16

Jesus - Redeemer Galatians 3:13, Revelation 5:9

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

The very thing that "qualifies" Jesus as the Father, is the indwelling fullness of the Father in His human son(Jesus).

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Colossians 2:9

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

The indwelling Father in the body of His human son, makes the son....omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent now.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be
upon his shoulder: and his NAME shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty
God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Most everyone has erred on the NAME: they are still considering the "veil" of the
natural man, Jesus, instead of the NAME. Isa. 9:6, is telling us what we will find
in the NAME: it is His wonder, Counsel, the Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and the
Prince of Peace. As in "...whosoever shall call upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved."

YAH-weh (Je-hovah) is the O.T. NAME of promise for deliverance, salvation, etc.
YAH-shua (Je-sus) is the N.T. NAME that fulfills(ed) the promises.
God's (the Father's) NAME is YAH, which is Savior; therefore, God is the savior.

This in no way detracts from "...the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world."

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

If Jesus isn't the mighty God and everlasting Father, then he isn't the Prince of Peace either.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


Colossians 2:8-9 KJV

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

The titles of Isaiah 9:6 are not titles, as in several.

It is one long title in Hebrew:

פֶּלֶא יֹועֵץ אֵל גִּבֹּור אֲבִיעַד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום

Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom

The child/son of this passage is called one long title, not five separate titles, the same way, earlier in Isaiah (8:3) Gold told Isaiah to name one of his son's Mahershalalhashbaz, or one long prophetic title, as opposed to a standard name.

As such, the title of Isaiah 9:6 needs to be translated and interpreted differently than most current models do.

One example is: Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.

The title then is a not a description of the one who bears it, so much as it is a prophetic proclamation about the One described in the title proper.

One of my father's favorite Scriptures is Isaiah 12:2:

"Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

The word for "salvation" is "Yeshua" or, as we know it, "Jesus." So the verse reads:

"Behold, God is my Yeshua/Jesus; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my Yeshua/Jesus."

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

Further, a literal word to word translation of the entire title does not necessarily bring out the same meaning we all know.

For example el gibbor can just as easily mean "a great tyrant/conqueror or mighty hero" since el, which can be translated as God, can also be translated many other ways.

Even Nebuchadnezzar is called el (See Ezekiel 31:11).

Additionally, the standard Hebrew word father, that is to say, av is not an automatic reference to God the Father, anymore than Avram or Exalted Father means that Abram was God the Father.

In ancient Jewish thought, a man could be a father of or to many different things, without being an actual father, much less God the Father. One merely needs to possess a thing in ancient Jewish thought to be called its father, or even to be an instructor and/or master of a subject. Consider Elishah's cry to Elijah "My father...". Or Job saying he was a father to those not actually of his progency.

So, just because this child/son is to be the "Father" of ad, or eternity, doesn't equate him with God the Father. Rather, in his future age of which this prophecy predicts, the child/son will be a master over eternity, as someone who, in his future immortality, possesses it.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

That's an old time myth.

Here is the Hebrew text, transliterated:

Behold, God is my yeshua'ti; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my li'shuah.

Both transliterated words, while related to the name Yeshua, are actually from a slightly different word, namely: yeshuah. This word is not a proper noun, that is, a name, but rather, is a standard noun, meaning salvation or deliverance.

Note, too, that it's a Hebrew word. Yeshua, as a proper name, is Aramaic, but in Hebrew, Christ's name was and is Yehoshua or "Yah (makes) safe". Yehoshua is a compound of the Tetragrammaton YHWH and yasha.

The Hebrew word from Isaiah 12:2, while closely related, isn't the same as the Aramaic name Yeshua, or even the Hebrew name for Jesus, i.e. Yehoshua.

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

so the Son is the Father?

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

That is correct: the fullness of the Godhead, or everything that is God, dwells
in the body of Jesus.

"To wit, that God was IN Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not
imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of
reconciliation."

How was God, and His fullness, in the body? By the SPOKEN WORD sent from God
through the angel, when he (the angel) said, "Hail, Mary...that which is conceived in
thee...you shall call his NAME Jesus, for He shall save...". And then: "He sent
His WORD and healed them from their destruction." Once more, this is not
detracting anything from "...the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world."

Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
 

The guy we were friends with that we started doing Skype studies with became one of these. Years ago he would greatly argue for oneness. Honestly, I learned a lot from reading his writings back then. It's also when we became friends... He started doing research for his book and was reading all kinds of things, apparently the doctrines of devils, and became convinced that Jesus was just an obedient man. I didn't realize it till we were on Skype. Then I noticed that, not only had his doctrine changed, but he had a different spirit about him. The way he acted actually reminded me of a rabid dog, rather than the Holy Ghost filled man I had know him as. He claimed that what we believed (and what he once believed) about Jesus being the father was gnosticism. I think he was the one who actually adopted gnosticism. I believe the Bible is clear about Jesus being one and the same as the Father.

It still makes me sad to think of how we had to cut ties with him.