Jacob wasn't so bad
 

I have heard preachers preach that Jacob's name meant deceiver and I have discovered that isn't true. Jacob means heel grabber or supplanter. A supplanter is not the same thing as a deceiver, although a supplanter could also be a deceiver. A supplanter is one who tries to trip up another in order to overtake him. Jacob's actions demonstrated that he desired to overtake his brother Essau. He first bargained for Essau's birthright and later deceived Isaac for his brothers blessing. As for deceiving his father, it seems to me the fault lied mostly with Rebecca. She was truly the mastermind. Was Jacob the big deceiver that many portray or was he only ambitious for greater things. I believe it is likely to be more the second.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Interesting thought. Regardless of what Jacob was... the Lord loved him anyway. I've never quite understood that... Esau was cheated out of his birthright, and never found a place of repentance for that.... which has always been such a sad thing to me... but like the Apostle Paul said... just because it doesn't make sense to our human understanding, doesn't mean that we can question God for it.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Actually, he sold his birthright for bean soup.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

True... but nonetheless, it was done in a dishonest way.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

I have thought Jacob might get a worse lick than he deserves.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

I am not sure of that. Essau knowingly sold his birthright. He said what good will his birthright be if he died. Which I personally don't believe was even the case. Essau seems to be a simple man that lived for the moment. Jacob seemed to ambitious and greedy for the role of firstborn in the family. The stealing of the blessing was wrong and i think Jacob received some punishment from Laban for that by the Leah and Rachel switch.

Think about it,
Jacob deceived Isaac into blessing the wrong brother.
Laban deceived Jacob into marrying the wrong sister.

Talking about reaping what you sow.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Good stuff!

God wants us to supplant when another, like Esau, disrespects a blessing from God.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Actually, the purchase of the birthright was not done dishonestly whatsoever. The Bible says that Esau was 'a profane' man, he didn't care about his birthright. Jacob offered to buy it for a bowl of soup and Esau was willing to sell it for that much.

Now, the manner in which Jacob acquired his father's blessing is another story.

And sure enough, Mama was behind that one...

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

So, lemme get this straight if a person is fully complicit in a scandal and knowingly does things in a deceitful manner but isn't the "mastermind" said person isn't deceitful? No, I have to disagree with that, entirely.

Jacob was manipulative and deceitful. Esau was foolish in selling his birthright, but it definitely was not a transaction on the up and up so to speak.

Jacob later turned from his deceitful ways and sought God but he was definitely a deceiver. He deceived his brother, father, and Laban. (Yes, Laban deceived him as well but we aren't talking about Laban.)

Trouble seemed to find Jacob regularly... Between his wives, his sons, his brother. Later having to bow down before another of his sons. The long time of grief he felt when he thought his favorite son was dead. No Jacob's life was by no means wonderful even after his deceptions. I mean I won't even go into the fact that a father shouldn't play favorites.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

For the transaction to not be on the up and up, Esau would have had to have been in dark about some aspect of the transaction. For Jacob to have deceived Esau, Jacob would have had to withhold some necessary bit of information.

If I sell you a house and fail to tell you there's a nuclear waste dump buried underneath it, then that is 'not on the up and up' and deception is involved. But I sell you a house, at cut rate prices below market value, for the specific reason that I just want to get rid of the stupid place and don't want it and don't like it, and you make me an offer, and I agree with the offer, then you are NOT being deceitful nor is there anything shady going on. The only problem is I am not willing to value something as I ought to. And the fault is not one of lack of knowledge, or of having information withheld (somebody running a scam), but rather the fault is my own lack of interest and concern.

Esau was not retarded, low IQ, mentally incompetent, 'in need of assistance', he knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't care. Jacob however valued the birthright, and obtained it.

If a man hates gold and sells you his gold coin collection for pennies on the dollar, would it be wrong and deceitful for you to buy it?

If the guy was a child and had no clue as to what it was worth, if his knowing its value would incline him NOT to sell, that's different. But a firstborn son in Bible days in the mid east, grandson of Abraham, descendant of Shem, could hardly have been so stunted in knowledge as to not know what he was doing in selling his birthright.

Jacob was not perfect. But he wasn't a dog, either.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

The first part I was mentioning was in reference to the deception of Isaac by BOTH Isaac's wife(both Esau and Jacob's mother) and Jacob . Seems to me she was resentful of who Esau chose to marry and thus (playing favorites once again) desired to see him not blessed. Jacob was complicit in the deception and therefore there can be no doubt he should bear at least some of the blame.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Hey, I know a guy absolutely hates DaVinci, and he inherited an original DaVinci painting. He wants to give it away for 5 bux. You interested?

Where's the deceit, assuming all is as reported?

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Are you not taking into account that Esau thought he was going to die? How smart can he be if he "is a firstborn son of Isaac and Abraham's lineage" and believes he is going to die?

How many people in this world make absolutely foolish decisions because they think they are about to die? I am by no means defending Esau here. He hated his birthright that cannot be denied, but the manner in which Jacob got it from him was not righteous.

Correct me if I'm wrong but a firstborn in that time had responsibilities that he was required to fulfill. Yes, there were definitely rewards to being firstborn but I'm willing to bet what Esau hated was all the responsibility that he had being the first born. More than was probably placed on Jacob.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Most folks speak out of incorrect teaching.

Esau SOLD his birthright for lack of faith: his hunger felt greater than his
Provider. Jacob "SAW" the importance of the birthright, having faith in
the One who promised. Seeing that his father, Isaac, would only bless
the elder, he disguised himself as the elder to attain the blessing that
now was rightfully his. Faith will always trump works and the Law.

So it's only through election. God elected the patriarchs (Abraham,
Isaac, and Jacob), just as He is electing the Church for this time. And
lest you have forgotten:

"The older shall serve the younger."

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

So we assume Isaac was not aware of Esau selling his birthright?

I'm not questioning Esau's lack of faith. That is obvious. Nor Jacob's hunger. Also obvious.

But where does it say that Isaac's blessing was the birthright?

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Esau thought he was going to die? Looks more like he was saying "I'm starving to death." Hyperbole, anyone?

At first, he said feed me cause I am faint.

Anyway no use crying over spilled lentils.

:)

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

There wasn't any deceit in the transaction made over the birthright. Jacob certainly wasn't very merciful in charging his brother for the soup, but he was not being deceitful. I think the label over Jacob being a deceiver may be a stretch the only time he was deceitful was in regard to the blessing and Rebecca seems to be more the blame to me. Jacob was reluctant to deceive Isaac for fear of being found out.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

I don't see his conversation with Rebekah to be reluctance as much as it was him being sensible.

"Mom, I don't have hairy arms like my bro. This isn't going to work. I don't want my father to figure it out"

He didn't say. "I don't want to deceive my father because it's wrong."

When Rebekah provided a means for him to get around it he didn't say squat. I would say he is just as much to blame as his mom.

And it wasn't the only time... reread his interactions with Laban.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

If you are refering to the ringstraked and speckled sheep? Jacob was not deceiving Laban.

The way that Jacob acquired his cattle was through God and not deceit. It was Laban who was the deceiver. Laban and Rebecca seem to have fell from the same tree.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Wait till somebody brings up Samson...

Oops!

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

???

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Tonights family bible reading was in judges and we read about Samson's early exploits. The man was a Judge in Israel, chosen of God, had some awesome anointings of the Spirit.

But he married a Philistine girl, ate honey out of a dead lion's carcass, plotted and schemed, burnt down small towns it seems, engaged in ethnic cleansing, drank water out of a dead donkey's jawbone, disregarded his parents' advice on relationships... and more to come tomorrow.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

I don't think Esau was ignorant or being hyperbolic. Hunting then is not like it is now. You went out into the severe wilderness with whatever bit of food you could carry. But if you didn't catch anything, you didn't eat. If Esau was on a long distance hunt, or tracked an animal into a far off place, and got lost, or anything like that, and never succeeded in getting a kill, by the time he got back to base camp, it may have been days since he ate, coupled with severe physical rigor draining him of life. What if he didn't have a source of clean drinking water?

Regardless, if Jacob would have been a bit kinder, he wouldn't have bartered a bowl of lentiles/beans with his brother. He would have fed him without reservation or plot, regardless of the true nature of Esau's health.

Reading some good thing into Jacob at that time in his life, because of what happened afterward, these many thousands of years removed, is a mistake. The man saw an opportunity to scheme and he took it.

Doesn't mean Esau didn't play a part, and ultimately is to blame for what he lost/sold/gave away.

But Jacob doesn't deserve any commendations, either. I mean, ask yourself: Would you do what Jacob did, to your brother (or sister, or friend, or even distant cousin)?

If not, why not? Because it's not right. If your enemy hungers, feed him. The people and culture of that era were honor bound to be hospitable and feed any poor soul who came to them. Jacob flouted that time-honored custom in an ignoble way.

As to why God then visited him and chose him? Election, as has been mentioned. It had nothing to do with Jacob's merit. It had everything to do with God's Master Plan to save the whole world.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Although I don't think it was a hyperbole, I do think it was an exaggeration on the part of Essau. There is not anywhere that we can determine it to be factual either way. I think we all are entitled to our opinion here, but there probably is no way to know.

Absolutely. The point that I was making on this thread is that he was a supplanter solely for the family rights of the firstborn son and may not be all around trickster he is made out to be. After leaving his father and mother he is not running around deceiving people like many think with Laban. Jacob's name means heal grabber because he came out grabbing at the heel of Essau. It would seem his only interest was in the right of firstborn of his family. PS I would have feed my brother free of charge.

I don't think that we should overly demean him either. I have heard preachers tell the congregation that his name meant deceiver and God changed his name to Israel and changed who he was, that is not entirely true. I just don't see a big change in the character of Jacob in the overall scope of his life. He wrestled with an angel until he received a blessing? Speaking of hospitality. Jacob must have wanted that blessing right bad. I see Jacob as a man that would go to the extreme to get what he wanted thus supplanter and not deceiver.

I am not so sure I agree about that and I think it is dark waters to get into for our finite minds. I wouldn't use the term merits but I do think that God chose people by looking upon their hearts. It seems as though God does look upon people based upon something inward. If you get technical though, God put it there. We are who we are because God has made us that way along with the choices we have made in a life that God has had control over. I think we are getting a little deep and I find it better not to get into those things that I can't comprehend, but I simply trust.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

I believe that Samson was a judge based upon the damage he done to the Philistine people and not because of his righteousness. "Hypothetically" if America was under oppression by Japan and we prayed to God for deliverance, and the Lord sent a tsunami and destroyed Japan that is kind of like the role of Samson judging for Israel (him being the tsunami). He delivered Israel from many philistine foes not really because of righteousness, but more so because of lust. God sometimes uses the bad with the good.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

Samson was the kind of man who would be socially unacceptable in just about EVERY church. Yet he had the anointing of the Spirit. He is a very interesting character.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

We read that God began to deliver Israel in the days of Samson, and that the reason Samson wanted to marry a Philistine is because God desired an occasion against them.

God was orchestrating Samson's life in a way that doesn't make sense to us, because it seems so counter to the character of God. But Samson goes down in history as one of the good guys, albeit woefully misunderstood.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

He had an anointing of God to reek havoc on the philistines, but aside from that I am not sure. He would hopefully be unaccepted because of fornication and his wicked associations with sinners. By unaccepted I don't mean that he would be unwelcome.

Re: Jacob wasn't so bad
 

I've had sympathetic thoughts towards Esau.

I've never felt bad for Jacob.