Jacob wasn't so bad

[good samaritan]

I have heard preachers preach that Jacob's name meant deceiver and I have discovered that isn't true. Jacob means heel grabber or supplanter. A supplanter is not the same thing as a deceiver, although a supplanter could also be a deceiver. A supplanter is one who tries to trip up another in order to overtake him. Jacob's actions demonstrated that he desired to overtake his brother Essau. He first bargained for Essau's birthright and later deceived Isaac for his brothers blessing. As for deceiving his father, it seems to me the fault lied mostly with Rebecca. She was truly the mastermind. Was Jacob the big deceiver that many portray or was he only ambitious for greater things. I believe it is likely to be more the second.

[KeptByTheWord]

Interesting thought. Regardless of what Jacob was... the Lord loved him anyway. I've never quite understood that... Esau was cheated out of his birthright, and never found a place of repentance for that.... which has always been such a sad thing to me... but like the Apostle Paul said... just because it doesn't make sense to our human understanding, doesn't mean that we can question God for it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Interesting thought. Regardless of what Jacob was... the Lord loved him anyway. I've never quite understood that... Esau was cheated out of his birthright, and never found a place of repentance for that.... which has always been such a sad thing to me... but like the Apostle Paul said... just because it doesn't make sense to our human understanding, doesn't mean that we can question God for it.

Actually, he sold his birthright for bean soup.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Actually, he sold his birthright for bean soup.

True... but nonetheless, it was done in a dishonest way.

[Steve Epley]

I have thought Jacob might get a worse lick than he deserves.

[good samaritan]

I am not sure of that. Essau knowingly sold his birthright. He said what good will his birthright be if he died. Which I personally don't believe was even the case. Essau seems to be a simple man that lived for the moment. Jacob seemed to ambitious and greedy for the role of firstborn in the family. The stealing of the blessing was wrong and i think Jacob received some punishment from Laban for that by the Leah and Rachel switch.

Think about it,
Jacob deceived Isaac into blessing the wrong brother.
Laban deceived Jacob into marrying the wrong sister.

Talking about reaping what you sow.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I have heard preachers preach that Jacob's name meant deceiver and I have discovered that isn't true. Jacob means heel grabber or supplanter. A supplanter is not the same thing as a deceiver, although a supplanter could also be a deceiver. A supplanter is one who tries to trip up another in order to overtake him. Jacob's actions demonstrated that he desired to overtake his brother Essau. He first bargained for Essau's birthright and later deceived Isaac for his brothers blessing. As for deceiving his father, it seems to me the fault lied mostly with Rebecca. She was truly the mastermind. Was Jacob the big deceiver that many portray or was he only ambitious for greater things. I believe it is likely to be more the second.

Good stuff!

God wants us to supplant when another, like Esau, disrespects a blessing from God.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

True... but nonetheless, it was done in a dishonest way.

Actually, the purchase of the birthright was not done dishonestly whatsoever. The Bible says that Esau was 'a profane' man, he didn't care about his birthright. Jacob offered to buy it for a bowl of soup and Esau was willing to sell it for that much.

Now, the manner in which Jacob acquired his father's blessing is another story.

And sure enough, Mama was behind that one...

[Servant's <3]

So, lemme get this straight if a person is fully complicit in a scandal and knowingly does things in a deceitful manner but isn't the "mastermind" said person isn't deceitful? No, I have to disagree with that, entirely.

Jacob was manipulative and deceitful. Esau was foolish in selling his birthright, but it definitely was not a transaction on the up and up so to speak.

Jacob later turned from his deceitful ways and sought God but he was definitely a deceiver. He deceived his brother, father, and Laban. (Yes, Laban deceived him as well but we aren't talking about Laban.)

Trouble seemed to find Jacob regularly... Between his wives, his sons, his brother. Later having to bow down before another of his sons. The long time of grief he felt when he thought his favorite son was dead. No Jacob's life was by no means wonderful even after his deceptions. I mean I won't even go into the fact that a father shouldn't play favorites.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Servant's <3

So, lemme get this straight if a person is fully complicit in a scandal and knowingly does things in a deceitful manner but isn't the "mastermind" said person isn't deceitful? No, I have to disagree with that, entirely.

Jacob was manipulative and deceitful. Esau was foolish in selling his birthright, but it definitely was not a transaction on the up and up so to speak.

For the transaction to not be on the up and up, Esau would have had to have been in dark about some aspect of the transaction. For Jacob to have deceived Esau, Jacob would have had to withhold some necessary bit of information.

If I sell you a house and fail to tell you there's a nuclear waste dump buried underneath it, then that is 'not on the up and up' and deception is involved. But I sell you a house, at cut rate prices below market value, for the specific reason that I just want to get rid of the stupid place and don't want it and don't like it, and you make me an offer, and I agree with the offer, then you are NOT being deceitful nor is there anything shady going on. The only problem is I am not willing to value something as I ought to. And the fault is not one of lack of knowledge, or of having information withheld (somebody running a scam), but rather the fault is my own lack of interest and concern.

Esau was not retarded, low IQ, mentally incompetent, 'in need of assistance', he knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't care. Jacob however valued the birthright, and obtained it.

If a man hates gold and sells you his gold coin collection for pennies on the dollar, would it be wrong and deceitful for you to buy it?

If the guy was a child and had no clue as to what it was worth, if his knowing its value would incline him NOT to sell, that's different. But a firstborn son in Bible days in the mid east, grandson of Abraham, descendant of Shem, could hardly have been so stunted in knowledge as to not know what he was doing in selling his birthright.

Jacob was not perfect. But he wasn't a dog, either.