Church Growth - Stagnation
 

This thread is not a discussion about small churches vs mega churches or house church. It is a discussion of what should be expected of a church regarding normal growth.

Church growth is affected by many factors. Churches in small communities with declining populations who maintain the number of church members may in fact be "growing" as their percentage of a declining area population increases even though their number may remain constant.

I strongly believe that the population area around a church is also something to measure a church's proper growth by. That is one of the things that always made the Pentecostals of Alexandria such an amazing story within "mega" UPC churches. When I was young they were running over 1,000 people each Sunday in a town that had less than 50,000 people. So percentage wise they were reaching more of their community than any other UPC mega church at the time.

If you pastor a church of 50 in a community of 5000 people if you could reach 5% of that population and grow to 250 that would be a great success in my eyes although, of course, the ultiimate goal is to reach many more of that population.

Likewise if you pastor a church of 50 in a town of 50,000 people and you are not growing then, in my opinion, something is wrong. Obvioiusly many factors go into a church growing. Sometimes pastors inherit dysfunctional churches that might take a few years to bring to a place where outreach and growth is possible. However that should happen.

What made me decide to start this thread is that I was looking at a Pentecostal church website. The church has been there for many decades in a Southern town with a population of around 200,000 people. I know nothing about the church or the pastors who have pastored it. However in reading the church history they mentioned that when the current pastor came about 20 years ago the church doubled from 60 to 120 members in two years. Then it proceeded to say that currently the church runs 100-120 members. I thought to myself that it seems incredible this church in a decent sized city would see virtually no growth in 20 years. It made me wonder how that pastor, church, and other pentecostals look at church growth and how they measure their success in carrying out the great commission.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I have a few thoughts that are related to this subject, probably disjointed thoughts.

* one plants, one waters, but God gives the increase, so as long as we are diligent with outreach, the increase is in God's hands.

* God is not going to increase us more then we can successfully disciple.

* I worry that the churches have grown more worldly and are not investing in prayer and fasting as much as they used to and are more distracted with worldly entertainment, possibly making us less effective then we could be

* I wonder that we seem to have a lot more water baptisms, then Holy Ghost baptisms, but thought maybe that is because lots of people are getting the Holy Ghost before they step foot into the church.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

What does the Bible say?

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I hesitate to equate church growth with a "successful" church.
To me it is somewhat equivalent to saying that someone who is financially successful is "blessed".
With that said, every church that I have attended has experienced growth.
And growth that outpaced the surrounding communities growth or decline.
One possibility that might have been left out of your website example is a church split.
I have seen that occur a few times and churches are reluctant to mention that in their history.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Since it is God's will that everybody come into relationship with him and be saved my thought is that there must not be proper planting and watering going on if God gives no increase in 20 years to a small church in a populous area. You would think at some point some introspection and examination would take place as to why there is no increase from whatever planting and watering are going on. I am not just picking on that one church but saying that my anecdotal observation is that there are many churches in populous areas with no growth that don't seem to be very concerned about their lack of success in carrying out the great commission.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I believe that if a church becomes stagnant, they've become too self focused. What are they doing in their community to serve society? Are they loving people without asking if those people are worthy or not? Are they speaking out in defense of the oppressed and against the injustices that are truly harming their communities?

Love, service, and advocacy.

Does the church provide a clothing closet, soup kitchen, shelter, or food-bank? Is it partnered with other local bodies to help the community? Is it "in the loop"? Do they have an active team of volunteers with the gift of helps volunteering to serve at local charities in the name of the church they attend? Are they getting their hands dirty and just helping people and loving people?

I can only speak from my experience. The churches I've attended that became stagnant became stagnant after becoming overly legalistic. The demands were just too steep for the average person walking the streets who just wants to know Jesus. They lacked a certain "grace" that attracted the sinner and the broken, bruised, and addicted. They shifted from being a hospital for the spiritually sick to being a private lodge with dues and secrete handshakes, expectations, and rituals. The kind of lodge that thinks you should feel lucky if you were invited.

They also lost their passion for service. The churches that I am familiar with that grew stagnant also did nothing for their local communities. And one church that did have some interest in serving their community only did so as it suited their own agenda and image. They shut down an effort to reach out to drug addicts because people were concerned with the kind of people that might begin coming to their church. They actually ruled out some neighborhoods when it came to door knocking or evangelistic efforts like invitations to dramas or holiday programs and focused on the upper middle class and suburban communities.

I don't mean to sound harsh. There were good people in those churches. There still are good people in those churches. I think that they began to really like themselves a little too much. New building, expansion, a school, buses, etc... they felt like they arrived... but they didn't realize that they were only more prepared to START their ministry.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I'd advise that a church focus on two rules...

Love God.
Love others.

The rest is merely commentary. In a world where people are hungry for love and authenticity... I've never seen it fail to attract people.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Excellent post.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

My experience has been the opposite.
I know of churches who have replaced the "gospel" with social services and "serving".
Then the next step is to water down the doctrine until the next generation sees no difference between us and the rest of the denominations.
I have witnessed that in my own family.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

The two need not be mutually exclusive, Jesus called us to preach the gospel to all creation and told us whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

The church I grew up in is the oldest Oneness church in Iowa, the weekly Sunday morning service has typically never gone much above 100 (I believe 150 was the peak, but I could be mistaken), albeit the population of the town is only around 8-9,000. However, a great many daughter works have come out of it. People being taught in the church have then gone to other towns and started new works. Church growth isn't just based on the weekly regulars, but also what grows out of it in surrounding communities or even other works in the same city.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I am not going to call this a "problem" but it is something I have seen.

some church never gets over 150ish. starts out, hits some number and just flattens out.

pastor moves along, new guy comes in and poof numbers go way up.

you got a guy who may very well be a great church planter but not capapble of pastoring beyond a certain level. Some of these guys can flat out get the thing going, have everything in place, but their gift, their ministry isn't to pastor. its to plant.

Understanding ones calling is as vital as anything.

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I have wondered about this for a long time. But I have no answers.

A church goes through seasons of birth growth and decline. Where a church is in that process is far more important than last Sundays attendance number.

How many seasons are there for a church ? What impact is there on a change of pastors ?

Some churches that have a pastor for a very long time, decades, do not do well after that pastors leaves. Are churches better off if there are shorter pastorates ? Not sure.

Society also changes. If the group loyalty of the baby boomers does not describe the generations after them, how does that affect churches ? There is a certain level of civic mindedness of those baby boomers and those before them that do not characterize generations after the baby boomers.

I suppose there are other factors about church growth and health that I am not aware of.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Excellent post, and so very true. Swing too far in any direction, things will go wrong. There has to be a balance. Great observation.

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While I was contemplating this over lunch, I remembered something. I remember reading an article a few years a go and I can't find the link. I'll try to convey what the article broke down.

The notion was that leadership effectiveness is limited by the numbers. I remember the example being monkeys. Let's say you just love monkeys. So you buy a monkey. You love that monkey. He's almost like your best little friend. You adore him, he adores you. Then, you find a lost little monkey. Since you love monkeys, you take in the second monkey and now you and the monkey have grown to love one another. In addition, the two monkeys are best buds and adore one another. Then one day your friend gives you a monkey because they are moving to a place that doesn't allow monkeys. Now you have three monkeys, and all three of you are doing quite well. But as the days roll by for one reason or another... you keep acquiring more and more monkeys. You eventually have 10 monkeys, then 20. Then you find yourself with 40 monkeys and then 80. Eventually you get to the point wherein you cannot actually provide the emotional investment in every monkey that is necessary for happiness. Also, the limited time you get with each monkey only causes each monkey to feel less and less emotionally attached to you. You no longer have any best buds, now you have little mouths screaming for food, only to smile and run off to play with other monkeys after you've fed them. To make matters worse, some monkeys find it funny to throw poo at you when you least expect it.

I remember the article mentioning psychological dynamics that cause the average human being to only be able to forge around 120 true relationships at any given time. And at 120 relationships, each relationship is rather strained and isn't as deep as the original few, but they are sincere. At about 120, additional human relationships begin to replace one of the 120 in value or they remain relatively... unimportant... on a subconscious level.

For example: You might start a church group with 10 people. It is exciting, intimate, edifying, loving, and almost like a family. As more and more people come into the mix the dynamic changes and soon you have 120 or more and it is more like a social club. At any given point in time... only 120 feel close to you. And at 120 you are less likely to extend the necessary emotion or care you extend to the original 120. Or number 121 demands so much additional care, one or more of the original 120 will suddenly feel as though they mean significantly less to you. Now, people are leaving out the back door as more people come in through the front door. Eventually you see 20 new faces... but only 100 of the original 120 faces. And the number is still only 120! You try harder to win more people... only turn around and see 50 new faces... but only 70 of the original 120 faces. And you're still at around 120!

Now the actual number might differ from leader to leader, but once the limit is reached, the dynamic is still the same.

What is a leader to do???? One of the wisest bits of advice in the Bible came from Jethro. He advised Moses concerning how to lead the people....

Exodus 18:13-27 (ESV)
13 The next day Moses sat to judge the people, and the people stood around Moses from morning till evening. 14 When Moses' father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, “What is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone, and all the people stand around you from morning till evening?” 15 And Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God; 16 when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between one person and another, and I make them know the statutes of God and his laws.” 17 Moses' father-in-law said to him, “What you are doing is not good. 18 You and the people with you will certainly wear yourselves out, for the thing is too heavy for you. You are not able to do it alone. 19 Now obey my voice; I will give you advice, and God be with you! You shall represent the people before God and bring their cases to God, 20 and you shall warn them about the statutes and the laws, and make them know the way in which they must walk and what they must do. 21 Moreover, look for able men from all the people, men who fear God, who are trustworthy and hate a bribe, and place such men over the people as chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. 22 And let them judge the people at all times. Every great matter they shall bring to you, but any small matter they shall decide themselves. So it will be easier for you, and they will bear the burden with you. 23 If you do this, God will direct you, you will be able to endure, and all this people also will go to their place in peace.”
24 So Moses listened to the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said. 25 Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. 26 And they judged the people at all times. Any hard case they brought to Moses, but any small matter they decided themselves. 27 Then Moses let his father-in-law depart, and he went away to his own country.

To better meet the emotional and psychological needs of people, leaders often need to delegate. Moses delegated duties down to trustworthy dedicated leaders. This helped better meet the needs of the people.

Now, let's say that a pastor has 120 to 200 people. According to the article I read he's going to at least need an additional leader to help with meeting the people's needs. However, if the additional leader only connects with the same 120 or so individuals as the senior pastor... the remaining 80 still stand a chance of drifting away.

What to do? What to do?

Small group ministries.

Jesus directly ministered to only 12 disciples. And even within the twelve, Jesus had an inner circle of Peter, James, and John (consider these best buds).

Now, imagine if there were 120 in a single congregation under pastor and 12 elders. The pastor could teach and minister on the day that the entire group gathered together. However, during the week, 12 groups of 10 individuals could meet in a small group, each sitting under one of the 12 elders. The pastor could then rotate through by visiting one group each week as the special guest. This way each group never grows so large they lose a sense of closeness and intimacy. Also, each group gets a chance to have more participative 1 on 1 time with the pastor. Each elder could be responsible for Bible study/teaching and the ordinances of the church (baptism and Lord's Supper). They can also provide mentoring, but all serious counsel could be referred to the pastor. And, on a given evening each week (or once or twice a month) the pastor could meet with the 12 elders and provide a leadership focused study...like what we see with Jesus and the disciples.

Now, that establishes the network, intimacy, and closeness that keeps the fabric of the present congregation strong. But how can this body grow?

Traditional logic says, well, have everyone reach someone and bring them in! That's the mission. Under each elder is around 10 people. Let's say that each group grows by 1 extra within a six month period. That's 12 people. Guess what? Appoint another elder, he has a group ready. In essence, any group exceeding 12 people should be a strong indicator that an elder needs to be appointed over a new group. Essentially a congregation of 1000 people could meet to hear the pastor teach on Sundays... but be meeting in 100 different groups of ten throughout the city during the week.

A local house church network was set up much like this in Dayton, Ohio. The church had around 1,300 people who would meet on the main campus (a massive and beautiful church facility) every Sunday. But during the week, individuals were encouraged to attend any one of 78 house churches. You might say, "What about the remaining estimated 364?" Well, not everyone committed to a house church. Some only attended on Sundays at the main campus. And that's fine. But they were encouraged quite often to link-up with a house church. The pastor would often say, "Listen to me, if you want t truly feel connected and be blessed, I can only encourage you to join a house church. That's where the ministry really takes place."

Now, they're Baptist. But I don't see why an Apostolic church couldn't build a sense of intimate community, multiply, and grow the same way.

Here's a link to this house church network that has truly blessed me and opened my eyes to what can be done through house churching. I have visited and still tend to visit several different house churches within their network. They are a great bunch of people and they really love Jesus. Yes, I think they need to be shown more light. But I've seen God move among them in spite of any doctrinal differences we might have with them. Here's their link:

http://www.apexcommunity.org/who-we-are/

Also, here's a video about this network: (This video was filed three blocks from my house, and the church building in the beginning is not their church building, it is a Methodist church where the Quaker group I like to gather with holds their meetings! LOL):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLSkWrypu3Y

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I just realized, that I mentioned "house church". Please understand, my intention isn't about house church vs. traditional church. I was just trying to share how small group ministry can actually facilitate the intimacy and closeness can facilitates growth.

As long as one person, or family, clings to authority... the church faces a significant hurdle to growth. Not because they are bad people for doing so. But because they can't facilitate the growth they desire to see. They need appointed elders and a vision that values small group ministry.

The way to get bigger... is to... think smaller.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

This is what FPC Palm Bay does. Once a month people meet in homes, home friendship groups.

http://homefriendshipgroups.com/blog/

I think lots of churches do this.

Also, we have satellite campuses

http://palmbay.experiencefpc.com/satellite-campuses/

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Rather they be called "house churches", "care groups", "friendship groups", or "home Bible studies", small groups are essential to growth and building more intimate bonds between believers. This helps increase a retention that facilitates.... growth.

Now, in our eyes a "house church" is unique because each elder or head of household where believers gather administers water baptism and the Lord's Supper for the home based group. Also, most Christian discipline takes place at the house church level. Also, in our network, the local house church is an autonomous body that can set certain standards for itself as they search the Scriptures. So, within the network, you might see a wide variety of opinions or Scriptural applications in non-essential matters. The matters that an Apostolic house church network might chose not compromise on, points that define them, could be:

-Oneness of God
-Acts 2:38 salvation
-Priesthood of all believers
-The church being a body of people, not a building or organization
-A financial plan of steward ship (giving or tithing)

Beyond these things, a certain flexibility can be allowed for each house church and they still remain in the network. Yes, there will be some house churches more conservative or liberal on some issues than others. But that allows a variety of options for the seeker to find a spiritual home within the body. The primary vision of maintaining a love for God and others cannot be overemphasized.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I checked it out. I love it by the way. It looks like an awesome fellowship. :thumbsup

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

If the church is to grow... it has to be... released. When released, the power will be unleashed.

To many churches aren't growing because an individual or a single family is afraid to release the body. Therefore, it will never grow larger than what they can manage or the circle of intimacy they can create all by themselves.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

How many house churches are in the network you speak of?

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

You bring up a good point. The small church I grew up in was in a small town that had large Army and Air Force bases nearby. Our church was 80% military folks. My dad was the oldest man in the church when he was 52. My pastor was great and outreach to young folks and brought in scores if not hundreds of young military men into the church who once they rotated out of our town populated churches in other locations and in some instances when on to pastor churches.

My pastor did an amazing job of planting and watering but never got to enjoy the increase. So there are sometimes good reasons a church doesn't see steady growth although I think that is very much the exception and not the rule.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

As Amanah said in a reply to your post the two are not mutually exclusive. You can reach out in community service to show the love of Christ without changing your doctrine one single bit.

I think the concept that you just get behind a pulpit and preach sermons twice on Sunday and once mid week and you have done your job as a church and pastor has proven to not work the vast majority of the time no matter how "strong" or "pure" you may feel your doctrine is.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I agree.
However, I have seen too many examples of what I said to ignore it.
I would also say that our first priority in serving as outlined in scripture is the fatherless, widows and those in prison.
In other words, our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I guess this is an example of how to do it:

David K. Bernard: Under Pastor Shaw, church has about 1,000 constituents plus almost 1,000 in 22 daughter works & preaching points

http://www.newlifeaustin.com/Who-We-Are

http://www.newlifeaustin.com/Church-Plants

We're in northwest Austin, but we also want to reach all of the Austin metropolitan area. And so we have planted several other churches in the surrounding area. We call these church plants "daughter churches," and our goal is for each of these congregations to become autonomous churches affiliated with the United Pentecostal Church International. Once autonomous, we call them "sister churches." We would love for you to visit New Life Austin, but if you're close to one of our daughter or sister churches, we definitely would encourage you to visit them!

Daughter Churches
Kyle: New Life Sanctuary, Pastor David Mullins
Luling: New Life House of Prayer, Pastor Jesus Estrada
Manchaca: Apostolic Life Center, Pastor John Ratka
Manor: Iglesia Nueva Vida, Pastor Fernando Luna
Round Rock: New Life Church, Pastor Steve Green
..
Sister Churches
Austin: Centro Familiar Nueva Vida, Pastor Jesse Romero
Austin: New Life Temple: Pastor Dwayne Shaw
Austin: Nueva Vida de Austin, Pastor Richard Hernandez
Burnet: New Life Fellowhship, Pastor Doug Fowler
Cedar Park: The Sanctuary, Pastor Mel Reddy
Hutto: New Life Church, Pastor Bernhard Suppan
Fredericksburg: Calvary Pentecostal Church, Pastor Don Steadman
Pflugerville: Way of Life Church, Pastor Jason Ouellette
Taylor: New Life Church, Pastor Roy Hutton

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I'm not exactly sure. I believe the last I heard they had 78. The link below states that there is about 80. I don't know when it was last updated.

http://www.apexcommunity.org/house-church-faq

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

"We believe that God is the Creator and Ruler of the Universe.

He has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God."

From http://www.apexcommunity.org/what-we-believe/

I thought you were a member of an apostolic house church?

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Don't pray for something God has already done and don't pray for God to do something that He has commanded YOU to do.

We become stagnant because we sit and wait for God to do all the work and we think that our job is just to show up.

I think that as long as there is sickness, disease and people that needs to be delivered, we have plenty to do.

Our job is to do things that no one else can do.THAT is Apostolic Identity and THAT is what will draw others.

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I don't believe this is Aquila's house church. This looks to be from the example he gave in his post.

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He always stated that the house church is trinitarian.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I posted information on Apex because it is a local example of successful decentralization and growth through smaller networked gatherings (in this case house churches). I fellowship with them quite a bit, but I wouldn't count myself a "member". Senior Pastor Rob Turner is an excellent expository preacher. Calvinst as the day is long, so we don't always agree, but a great person. I assured him that I firmly believed that God granted him the free will to be a Calvinist if he wanted to be. LOL!

One house church I like to attend is Apostolic. Although they have a vision for a house church network, it has yet to truly materialize in the manner that we see with Apex. At one time, we had 7 house churches baptizing in Jesus name in our area. But after that growth they dissolved for various reasons relating to control and attitudes. A lot of Apostolics in house churches have been hurt and have some bitterness and control issues to work through. This hinders trust, openness, and growth. I do like this group's statement of faith though, and I hold it as my own.

If we could only build a network of Apostolics with the attitude more like that found at Apex, I think it would be awesome. I'll be honest. If I didn't feel so unworthy and insecure, and I had the peace of God's call to do it, I'd try to start a network like Apex.... only it would be Apostolic in doctrine.

But for the sake of this conversation, I felt that Apex was the best local example of growth through decentralization that I'm familiar with.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Good stuff. :thumbsup

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Senior Pastor Rob Turner (of Apex) is rather open to the ideas of others, he doesn't criticize. This attitude is really prevalent in their network. It easy to fellowship and share an Apostolic perspective with people in these house churches. Here Pastor Turner is having a little fun in a gathering at the main campus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shiqgpVW2fg

Here's an example of Tuner sharing who Jesus is (his understanding of course):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lt1qVZWX_Q#t=359

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Main campus?

Is this a large church with a lot of house church/cell church "daughter works"?

I thought you had posted a statement of beliefs of your church, and I thought it was Oneness Pentecostal?

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Aquila, you posted this:

Yet, the APEX Statement of Belief, on baptism, never even references Acts 2:38 and explicitly denies baptism is necessary, essential, or any part of salvation.

Also, your church's doctrine of the Godhead is explicitly contrary to APEX's? How does a church maintain membership in a network that explicitly contradicts that church's doctrines of God, baptism, and regeneration?

I do not see how your church's statement of beliefs is compatible with APEX's?

And, that last statement about individual house churches having leeway on "nonessentials" implies this posted statement of beliefs is the statement of a network or fellowship of churches. As if you were speaking of an APOSTOLIC network or fellowship???

Please explain?

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Rob Turner, eh?

"Apex Family,

On Sunday, November 20 we held a meeting with the Elders and Turners to provide an opportunity for our Apex family to have a time of prayer, care, and healing. Back in July we made the announcement that Rob Turner, our Teaching Lead Pastor and Region 1 Elder, was immediately removed from his ministry and elder responsibilities due to his confession of a long-standing sexual sin (to read more about that announcement from July, click here). "

From http://www.apexcommunity.org/night-w...rs-and-turners

How'd you miss that one, Aquila?

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Aquila... ??? This happened back in July of last year, and Apex notified all their house churches, and distributed a FAQ, a "House Church Discussion Guide (which is meant to help our shepherds share this news in their house churches), and the Missionary Reflection Guide (which is meant to help communicate the news to our missionaries)."

From http://www.apexcommunity.org/importantannouncement

But you just posted as if Mr Turner was still some kind of leader in your church network?

I'm confused... you had posted a statement of faith of a house church network that appeared to be Oneness Pentecostal, but now you say you are a member of a large trinitarian evangelical/Baptistic house church network headed by Rob Turner... but those people say they sat him down back in July for "long standing sexual sin"???

You been out of town for awhile?

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

Somehow I missed this post.

So you fellowship with Apex, apparently were unaware Mr Turner was defrocked, and consider another house church's statement of faith as your own.

Are you a member of that apostolic house church?

And, for the record, it really seemed like you were saying YOUR network was Apex. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Re: Church Growth - Stagnation
 

I am also confizzled