Rome is Babylon
 

Rome was the great persecutor of Christians at the time that John was exiled to Patmos. Rome was the 4th beast of Daniel. Judeans were subjects of the Roman empire and could not take a life without the consent of Rome (reference Jesus trial and crucifixion). Many Judean religious leaders where the spiritual whores of Rome, but Jerusalem was not the Beast.

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Patmos (Rev 1:9) is a tiny, volcanic island in the Aegean Sea, 40 miles (64 km) off the coast of Asia Minor. The Roman Empire sent its political prisoners there to live in exile.

John's confinement there shows that he is a partner with the churches' tribulation and patient endurance

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Rome is Babylon

There are two cities in Revelation: Jerusalem and Rome.

Revelation 11:7-10 Sodom/Egypt is Jerusalem.

Revelation 17:1-18 Babylon is Rome because it has 10 horns, just as the 4th Kingdom (Rome) in Daniel 7:15-28

Revelation 14:8 Babylon previously had conquered Judah. In John's day, Rome was the nation with “dominion over the kings of the earth” (Revelation 17:18) that oppressed Christ's people (17:6)

Don't forget that Nero martyred many Christians in Rome, including Peter and Paul.

***

The Christian persecutions under Nero (after the fire of Rome):
Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

Complete Works of Tacitus. Tacitus. Alfred John Church. William Jackson Brodribb. Sara Bryant. edited for Perseus. New York. : Random House, Inc. Random House, Inc. reprinted 1942.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3Achapter%3D44

Tacitus, Tertullian, Eusebius and other sources document the persecutions of Christians under Rome.

Island of Patmos
John is considered to be exiled to Patmos, undergoing a time of persecution under the Roman rule of Domitian. Revelation 1:9 states: "I, John, both your brother and companion in tribulation ... was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Adela Yarbro Collins, a biblical scholar at Yale Divinity School, writes:
Early tradition says that John was banished to Patmos by the Roman authorities. This tradition is credible because banishment was a common punishment used during the Imperial period for a number of offenses. Among such offenses were the practices of magic and astrology. Prophecy was viewed by the Romans as belonging to the same category, whether Pagan, Jewish, or Christian. Prophecy with political implications, like that expressed by John in the book of Revelation, would have been perceived as a threat to Roman political power and order. Three of the islands in the Sporades were places where political offenders were banished. (Pliny, Natural History 4.69–70; Tacitus, Annals 4.30)[14]

John was allegedly banished by the Roman authorities to the Greek island of Patmos, where, according to tradition, he wrote the Book of Revelation. According to Tertullian (in The Prescription of Heretics) John was banished (presumably to Patmos) after being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it. It is said that all in the audience of Colosseum were converted to Christianity upon witnessing this miracle. This event would have occurred in the late 1st..century, during the reign of the Emperor Domitian, who was known for his persecution of Christians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Please don't butcher this thread with 5000 one liners, I would like a serious discussion.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

The book of Revelation is being written to Diaspora Judeans who were currently throughout the known world. This was a Roman world. Yet, the only Bible they had was the OT, not a New Testament. Mystery Babylon, the Great, the Mother of all Harlots is referring to the only harlot in the OT. That was the wife of God who who He divorces in Jeremiah 3:8.

"I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery."

The prophet refers to both kingdoms within this divorce, both are called harlots in Jeremiah 3:9. In Ezekiel 23:3-21 the accusation of harlot is leveled against Israel. In Hosea 2:2 we are shown that Israel is indeed the Harlot, the entire book of Hosea solidifies that. Jesus just reminds the religious Judeans of this accusation in Matthew 21:43 He tells them that their kingdom will be taken from them and given to another nation (the Church) which will produce good fruit. Unlike they who had been a bad tree and produced bad fruit. The Harlot is adorned in scarlet and purple which we find Numbers 4:8, Numbers 4:8, she is arrayed in gold Exodus 25:38-39. She rides the beast which is ROME. The vehicle which she would use to kill her husband,John 19:15. Jesus is standing to be executed, Pilate the Roman official asks the question, shall I crucify your King? They answer back from Judean leadership, is WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR. Israel rejected God before when she wanted a king like all the other Gentiles 1 Samuel 8:20. Samuel wept, but God told him that it wasn't Samuel's leadership which was being rejected but God's authority which was being rejected 1 Samuel 8:1-22.

In John 19:15 Judea seals her fate, her capital Jerusalem the city of the great king had rejected her rightful husband for the last time.

Matthew 27:25 the Judean leadership take the blood guiltiness from Pilate and place it upon themselves and upon their generation. Yet, Acts 2;38-39 was the only antidote for their self pronounced curse. This promise is to you, and to your generations, and even to the Gentiles--all who have been called by the Lord our God.

A Roman Mystery Babylon has the problem that she was once married or in covenant relationship with God. That teaching has to have the Body of Christ, the Church as a whole becoming apostate totally. Hence the doctrine which the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses and some Pentecostal groups use to build on their New Light teachings of a Church Restored. The Bride of Christ became a whore, and these groups are the light now restored. Starting with Martin Luther, all the way down to William Branham, or some other preacher of new light.

I just hope your thread isn't trashed up by Sean.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Amanah, you are right about the Rome/Babylon connection. The book of Rev. defines 2 cities as Jerusalem/Sodom and Rome/Babylon. The Roman govt. was the head of the persection of the saints for hundreds of years, and culminated in the mass deception of the church via Constantine in the 4th century AD. Rome today is a stench to God and "represents" the church to an unbelieving world.

Good post Amanah.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

You are partially right.

The book of Revelation is about two cities, and even calls them by name.
(old) Jerusalem and New Jerusalem.

Anything else is speculation and actually unscriptural.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

I've mentioned this to Amanah before, but for everyone;s consideration...

Babylon was said to be filled with all blood shed on the earth in Revelation.

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Jesus distinctly said that was the case with Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:34-36 KJV Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


There is no reason to say Rome and Jerusalem somehow become one entity. The judgments meted out in Revelation are four sets of sevenfold judgments. And Mosaic Law stated there were four sets of sevenfold judgments to those who BREAK God's LAW. And law is only written to those under the law.... not to entities like Rome.

Leviticus 26:18 KJV And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Leviticus 26:21 KJV And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

Leviticus 26:24 KJV Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

Leviticus 26:28 KJV Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.


Also, the BEAST is Rome. And the whore rides the beast, but Rome is not riding Rome.

Revelation 17:4-7 KJV And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: (5) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (6) And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (7) And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The beast Rome carries the whore, Jerusalem. The wealth the whore has is from God as his bride:

Ezekiel 16:10-13 KJV I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. (11) I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. (12) And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. (13) Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 3:3 KJV Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.


The voice of bride and bridegroom in her indicate HER MARRIAGE to the Lord. Rome was never married to the Lord.

Jeremiah 7:34 KJV Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.



Kings of earth committed fornication with her, meaning she was a wife as Jerusalem was...

Revelation 18:9 KJV And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,


Ezekiel 16:28-29 KJV Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. (29) Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Ezekiel 16:38 KJV And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

Ezekiel 16:32 KJV But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!


Ezek 16 is all about Jerusalem alone.




Kings of the earth together with Jerusalem:

Acts 4:26-27 KJV The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Kings of earth are rulers of earth. Rome was Herod, Pilate and the gentiles. TOGETHER with Israel. Adultery. Rome cannot commit adultery with itself.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Excellent Brother Blume

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

The whole idea of the Rome riding Rome is the misunderstanding that 7 mountains are seven hills of the Vatican. Roman Catholic Mystery Babylon is a bit sketchy. Rome had two sections to her empire. A Western and an Eastern, this division continued into her Roman churches, which you had an Eastern and Western Roman church. We aren't shown two harlots, unless you look at Israel and her sister Judah, which are called harlots by your Bible. Trying to fit Rome into Mystery Babylon gets a bit interesting because we have no way of proving it's the Eastern and Western Church with a Bible. Where did Jesus warn us that His bride would become a whore? A great falling away, and those who were antichrists who left because they were NEVER part of the church weren't called harlots. The great falling away happens during the first century A.D. For the logical reason that it would have to be the very first apostasy to pop up within their time. That was Judaizers, not a Roman Catholic papacy. Or even a teaching of a Trinity, changing of water baptism, or Joe Smith dropping LSD in the Sacred Grove in Palmyra New York. It was Judaizers who were teaching new Gentile converts that they were to be baptized In Jesus name, filled with the Holy Ghost, plus being circumcised, keep the law of Moses, and go sacrifice at the temple.

Nothing about a Roman papacy

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Trying to say that the Roman Catholic church is the great persecutor in the 4th century is total missing what the Apostle said was the chief persecutor.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Matthew 23:32

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

That is what was in her cup, all the blood which was shed upon the earth.

Jesus told us who exactly were those who did this, it wasn't sometime in the 4th century. Because Jesus tells us what generation it was, That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. That's pretty plain, Jesus is telling us who Mystery Babylon is, and when she was living.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Excellent posts, brother Benincasa.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Acts 9:22-23

But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ. And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to KILL HIM:

Acts 20:3

where he stayed three months. And when the Jews formed a PLOT AGAINST him as he was about to sail for Syria, he decided to go back through Macedonia.

Acts 23:12

When daylight came, the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had KILLED Paul.

We just can't skip over the Bible evidence to formulate something so impossible to prove.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Thank you all for posting, it's very thought provoking.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

I believed all of that and was POST TRIB. Lol. Then... whoops... went impartial preterist. :happydance

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

you previously had posted that you thought partial preterism had hermeneutics that led to heresy, you no longer think so?

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

I think this is an interesting Site, it leaves room for variance in the partial preterist school of thought.

HISTORICAL PRETERISM (HP) - A) Umbrella term covering all those who believe that only a slight amount of Bible prophecy was totally fulfilled in the early centuries of the Christian era. Determined by looking at where authors find a "transition" from the past to the future using the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24/25 and the Apocalypse of John. B) This class has roots dating back to the first century, such as in the writings of Barnabus and Clement of Rome, and finds greater development in the writings of Justin Martyr and Eusebius. The Catholic and Orthodox churches maintained HP through the Middle Ages. Today's contemporary forms were largely developed in the writings of Calvin, Luther, Grotius and Lightfoot. C) Teaches that some of the Bible's "end times" prophecies were fulfilled by AD70, but that the substantial portion of prophetic fulfillment is yet to be revealed at the "last day." Transitions in the Middle of Matthew 24, or in the Middle of the Apocalypse of John.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Par...ism/index.html

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

I do use the term heresy very lightly in that context. I do not believe that our preterist brethren deny the resurrection as they are accused of doing.

I do believe that the hermeneutic will lead one into full preterism, which is a position that I can not wrap my mind around. So I jokingly refer to myself as an impartial preterist... impartial in the sense of one who is disinterested, detached... because I stopped studying eschatology.

If you look closely what I'm saying is "I'm-partial preterist."

Anyway...

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Transitions in the Middle of Matthew 24? If we subtract what Jesus was actually trying to convey to his four apostles, then all kinds of notions may crop up. Especially dissecting Matthew 24, which Partial Preterists never do.
Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are the same discourse. Jesus and His apostles didn't fail at their task. Doomsdayers are focus on what they believe justice to be. Which is physical destruction of man and his world. But there is a judgement which we all must face, as man dies he will give an account. While everyone awaits asteroids to nuclear armageddon, many have already walked into eternity to meet their LORD and MASTER.

Some obeyed, some swayed, and some played.

But when we stand before HIS door there will be debate NO MORE.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Partial preterists never do what? I may be wrong *groans*, but one can believe that Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are fulfilled and still hold to partial preterism.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Why certainly.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

As Boaz ignores the verses that teach two different cities on Earth and sticks his head back in the sand.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

One city is called Sodom and Egypt, and the other city is called Babylon. But somehow these folks try to make them the same city.... Preterists will not allow themselves to see these two cities. Redefinitions allow the two cities to meld into one.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Two cities and one is given two names of extremely two different places. One Egypt and the other the ancient city of Sodom. But the burden isn't on us to prove anything. The burden is on Sean to prove that Mystery Babylon is ROME by using the Bible. Elder Blume and myself have shown it to be Jerusalem/Judea. Sean can now attempt to show where it is the Roman Catholic Church.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Matthew 23:33-36


YE serpents, YE generation of vipers, how can YE escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto YOU prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them YE shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall YE scourge in YOUR SYNAGOGUES, and PERSECUTE them from city to city:
That upon YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom YE slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto YOU, All these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION.




Revelation 18:24

And in HER was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

In her was all the blood of the prophets, and of the saints. Jesus explains exactly who she was, and John repeats Jesus' words in the Revelation.

The city which is called a country, and a destroyed ancient city is where Jesus was crucified. It is the same city as Mystery Babylon. But we will allow the individual to prove that these cities aren't one in the same. The only opponent to the Church was the Judean leadership. They stirred up the Gentiles against the King of Kings, and against His children.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

I'm predicting Sean will do this soon.


"Soon," as in a Dispensational 2000-plus-years-and-still-waiting "soon."

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Good luck with that.

Sean is planning to blow out this thread like he has done to the eschatology section. He has been warned by Amanah. James Glen had the ability to send Sean packing. I believe if he performs his monkey shines here he will be escorted by Amanah to the door.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

I don't have time to post a long drawn out exposition of the subject of "Identity of Apocalyptic Babylon" but I did want to point a few things out. Far too many are labouring under hand-me-down eschatologies and prophetic interpretive schemes inherited from non-apostolic traditions. We need to get to a genuinely apostolic understanding of prophecy. In any event, here are a few points to stimulate thought:

1. It is said that Apocalyptic Babylon is called "the great whore", and that in the OT Jerusalem (and Samaria) were called "whores", that the prophetic designation "whore" can only be speaking of Jerusalem because in the OT the term is only applied to Jerusalem or Samaria, which were capitols of Israelite nations then-currently in covenant with God, ie married to God. Thus, it is said, Apocalyptic Babylon cannot be anything but Jerusalem.

But this is incorrect.

Isaiah 23 is a prophecy about Tyre, a Phoenician city. Tyre is specifically identified as a "whore" or "harlot" engaged in fornication "with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth", language that is nearly identical to the Apocalyptic descriptions of Babylon:

Isaiah 23:15-17 KJV And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. (16) Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. (17) And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Revelation 17:1-2 KJV And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: (2) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Furthermore, Ninevah is also identified as a whore or harlot, engaged in fornication with the nations, and which also is identified with witchcraft:

Nahum 3:4-7 KJV Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts. (5) Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame. (6) And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock. (7) And it shall come to pass, that all they that look upon thee shall flee from thee, and say, Nineveh is laid waste: who will bemoan her? whence shall I seek comforters for thee?

So, besides Jerusalem and Samaria, the Bible identifies two non-Israelite cities as whores or harlots involved in fornication with the kings and nations of the earth - Tyre, and Ninevah. Neither Tyre nor Ninevah were "married to God" yet the language used of them in prophecy is identical to the language used of Jerusalem, Samaria, and Apocalyptic Babylon. Such language identifying a city as a whore or harlot, committing fornication with the kings of the earth, and so forth, is not specific prophetic language restricted only to Jerusalem. Rather, it is the language of the prophets in describing an evil nation's capitol engaged in international alliances, commerce, trade, political intrigues, etc. Such a city's international affairs (!) are described as the business of a whore. And more importantly, such language is not restricted to Jerusalem. Therefore, it is erroneous to conclude that Apocalyptic Babylon is Jerusalem simply on the basis of it being called a "whore". Other cities and powers were called whores by God in the prophecies of the Bible.

2. It is said that Jesus declared that upon Jerusalem would come the blood (guilt) of all the righteous who were slain, and that the same language is used in regard to Apocalyptic Babylon, therefore they must be the same city. If all the blood comes upon Jerusalem it cannot come upon any other city, therefore Apocalyptic Babylon must be that same city.

But this is incorrect.

Here is what Jesus said:

Matthew 23:29-36 KJV Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, (30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. (31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. (32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. (33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Luke 11:46-51 KJV And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. (47) Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. (48) Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. (49) Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: (50) That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (51) From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Jesus was not saying all the righteous blood would come upon Jerusalem. He said all the righteous blood would come upon that "generation", and that generation is specifically identified as the scribes and Pharisees and lawyers. Jerusalem is specifically identified in the next verses in Matthew, where
He said her house is left unto her desolate. But the righteous blood is not said to come upon "Jerusalem" but rather upon the Christ-rejecting Jews, the "generation of vipers".

Furthermore, what is said of Apocalyptic Babylon is not the same as what Jesus said concerning the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers:

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The Jews would be guilty of the blood of all the righteous from Abel to Zecharias. (What about John the Baptist, Christ Himself, and the early Christian martyrs like Stephen?) But Apocalyptic Babylon would be guilty of the blood of "prophets, and of saints" - not ALL prophets and saints from Abel to Zecharias, but just guilty of the blood of prophets and saints - and also of "all that were slain upon the earth." All that were slain upon the earth encompasses far more than "all the righteous from Abel to Zecharias". The two entities are guilty of two different categories. While there is overlap, in that both are guilty of the blood of saints, prophets, etc, ALL the righteous blood from Abel to Zecharias was to be required of the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers of Christ-rejecting Jews (not merely Jerusalem). Whereas Apocalyptic Babylon would be guilty of the blood of various prophets and saints, and furthermore of ALL that were slain upon the earth (no distinction as to their relative merits is given, it's just ALL THAT WERE SLAIN).

The language of the Apocalypse regarding Babylon does NOT correspond with the language Christ used against the Jews, but rather it corresponds with the language of the Old Testament as used in reference to historical Babylon:

Jeremiah 51:49 KJV As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.

So the language in Revelation concerning Babylon is more of an echo of prophetic language used against historical Babylon, rather than being a direct mirror of the language used by Christ against the unbelieving Jews. And, Christ's words were not limited to the physical city of Jerusalem to begin with.

3. It is also said that Apocalyptic Babylon cannot be Rome, because the Beast is Rome, and Babylon is seen as a woman riding the Beast. Rome is not "riding" Rome, therefore Babylon and the Beast must be two different things. And since the Beast is Rome, Babylon must be something else.

Regardless of who or what Babylon represents in the Revelation, I just wanted to point out that the Beast being Rome rules out preterism as a viable system of interpretation. According to Revelation, the Beast destroys Babylon, and then is itself destroyed (along with the second Beast aka the False Prophet) in the lake of fire prior to the start of the thousand years of Revelation 20. Now, it is a fact that Rome was not destroyed anytime soon after the destruction of Jerusalem. If preterists wish to point to the fact that Rome did, eventually, fall into ruin, then they have de facto surrendered the preterist paradigm and have embraced historicism! Rome itself (the Western Empire) is generally regarded on all hands to have fallen around the fifth century AD. The Empire, however, continued well into the medieval period, up to around the 14th or 15th century AD, as the Eastern Roman or "Byzantine" Empire. This would mean that the Beast being thrown into the lake of fire did not come to pass until at least some 400-500 years after AD 70, and the destruction was not complete until some ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED YEARS or so after Jerusalem was destroyed! Whatever that may be, whether it be true interpretation of the prophecies, or error, whatever it is - it is not preterism. Not at all. It would be a form of historicism, the idea that the prophecies of Revelation have their fulfillment over the course of a long period of time.

To escape this, some may assert that the Beast is Nero. Aside from the idea that the Beast in the Apocalypse is assuredly not merely one man (an error futurists like to make), the fact is that Nero died in AD 68 - two years before Jerusalem was destroyed. This would require the Beast going to the lake of fire PRIOR to the destruction of Babylon - an impossibility denied by the plain text of the Revelation, which clearly posits the Beast's destruction AFTER Babylon's fall.

Furthermore, Revelation 19 depicts a "coming of the Lord" in judgment. Yet this occurs AFTER the destruction of Babylon. This coming in judgment results in the destruction of the Beast, not Babylon. Thus, it can clearly be seen that the preterist interpretation of Babylon as Jerusalem and the Beast as Rome simply does not fit the actual facts, and is internally inconsistent in regards to the flow of events presented in the Apocalypse itself. The only way the Beast can be Rome is if preterism itself, as an interpretative scheme, is rejected.

(to be continued in next post)

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

(part 2)


4. What is the apostolic interpretation of Apocalyptic Babylon? "Apostolic" means "of or relating to or descending from the apostles". Apostolic doctrine is the teaching given by the apostles. Apostolic practice is the practice of Christianity as exampled by and taught by the apostles. Apostolic faith is the faith delivered to the saints by the apostles. Can we hope to find a genuinely apostolic interpretation of prophecy and apocalyptic imagery? I believe the answer is YES.

The Revelation of course was delivered by an apostle. It contains various signs, and occassional interpretations of those signs. Those interpretations are therefore "apostolic". But the point in controversy is what does John mean? It is clear that John identifies Babylon with Jerusalem in some places, most explicitly in Revelation 11:8. (The claim that the "great city" is NOT Babylon is without merit, as "the great city" is specifically identified as Babylon in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 17:18, Revelation 18:10, and others. Only in one other place is there mention of another "great city", and that is the Heavenly Jerusalem in Revelation 21:10.) Revelation speaks therefore of two cities, one on earth, one in heaven. The earthly city is worldly and carnal, and persecutes the saints. The heavenly city is spiritual, is identified as the Bride of Christ, and is therefore the saints who are persecuted by the earthly city. Since that earthly city is identified with Jerusalem where the Lord was crucified, it is clear the Revelation speaks of two Jerusalems, two cities.

But John isn't the only apostle to speak of these things. The apostle Paul likewise taught about two cities, two Jerusalems:

Galatians 4:22-29 KJV For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. (23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. (24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. (28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Paul relates the story of Ishmael and Isaac, and their two mothers, Hagar and Sarah, the bondmaid and the freewoman. He then states these things are an allegory representing the two covenants. This is the point that needs to be attended two, the two things represent the two covenants. Hagar "is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and "answers to" or "corresponds to" Jerusalem "which now is, and is in bondage with her children." Sarah obviously "answers to" or "corresponds to" the Jerusalem which is above, or heavenly. Notice, Paul is not talking about two literal cities, one on earth, and one in heaven. Paul is talking about TWO COVENANTS: the old covenant, which corresponds to the earthly Jerusalem, and the new covenant, which corresponds to the heavenly Jerusalem. The two Jerusalems REPRESENT the two COVENANTS, not two physical cities.

Notice the parallels between Paul's plain teaching and the symbolism of the Apocalypse:

Earthly Jerusalem --- Great City on the earth where Jesus was crucified
Heavenly Jerusalem --- Great City in heaven which is the Bride of Christ
Earthly Jerusalem persecutes saints --- Babylon guilty of blood of prophets and saints

There is a clear correspondence between Paul's two Jerusalems, and John's two Jerusalems. But Paul is speaking plainly, and identifies both as THE TWO COVENANTS. Therefore, according to apostolic teaching, Revelation's Babylon is the old covenant, ie JUDAISM. It is not merely the physical city of Jerusalem, but is the entire OLD COVENANT SYSTEM that had rejected Christ and was persecuting the saints of God, the children of the heavenly Jerusalem. And how does a "covenant" reject Christ and persecute His saints? A covenant in and of itself can do nothing. Rather, it is the PEOPLE who adhere to that system - the scribes, Pharisees, lawyers, and all the Christ-rejecting Jews - who compose that system, who were persecuting the saints of God.

And therefore, Apocalyptic Babylon is JUDAISM.

Whether that Apocalyptic Babylon is limited to pre-AD 70 only, or extends beyond AD 70, is a question that depends on whether or not the preterist scheme of interpretation is correct. As I already showed, preterism faces the insurmountable difficulty of having things backwards in regards to the fate of Babylon and the fate of the Beast. If the Apocalypse was finished in AD 70, then there is the very real historical problem of Rome surviving long past AD 70. If however, the Beast continued long past AD 70 (which it must have if it represents Rome), then it necessarily follows that Apocalyptic Babylon likewise continued past AD 70. And, considering it has just been proven that Babylon represents JUDAISM, and considering that it is a fact that JUDAISM continued long past AD 70, it necessarily follows that Babylon continued long past AD 70.

At this point, one may be asking "What became of it? Where is it today?" Despite the fact one doesn't have to look far at all to see where Judaism is today, one may have to dig a bit deeper to see how all that fits into the outline of events described in Revelation. That of course will take quite a bit of study, far more than I can give in a few short posts on an internet forum. However, in the next post, I will point out a few "clues" that may help us get to a fuller understanding.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

(part 3)

Daniel 2:41-43 depicts Rome being mingled with "clay". According to verse 43 the mingling represents a genetic mixing. There was to be some kind of genetic amalgamation, or mixing, between Roman "iron" and some "clay". Clay of course is often used prophetically as a symbol of Israel:

Isaiah 64:8 KJV But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jeremiah 18:1-6 KJV The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, (2) Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. (3) Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. (4) And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. (5) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, (6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

In Romans 9, Paul uses the same analogy of a potter and clay to refer to Israel, both unbelieving Israel, and believing new covenant Israel. So then the idea of "clay" is identified Biblically with Israel. This gives us a better understanding of the vision of Daniel 2. (Many thanks to the Lord for giving brother Benincasa insight into this truth which he shared awhile back!)

It depicts a mingling of Roman Iron and JUDEAN CLAY. At the time of the Roman Empire, the only Israelite nation left still in covenant with God was Judea. Therefore, the clay represents a mingling between the Romans and the Judeans. Yet, according to the vision, this mingling or mixing would be fraught with difficulties and failures:

Daniel 2:41-43 KJV And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. (42) And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. (43) And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Rome was to become the dominant world power, and then it was to be divided. It was also to be "partly strong, and partly broken". And finally, it was to be part "iron", and part "clay". The division of the Roman Empire into two is a matter of historical record. It is also a matter of historical record that Rome was strong in many ways, yet very weak and "broken" or fragmented in many other ways. What is missing from the generally accepted, "official" historical record is that the Fourth Kingdom would also be partly Roman, and PARTLY JUDEAN.

Yet, if one digs a bit, one finds fascinating pieces of the puzzle which begin to fall into place. For example, the Judean aristocracy (the Herodians, Herod and his rather large and influential family) were closely associated with and even intermarried with the Flavians (the Roman Imperial family in the first century). In fact, much of the nobility of Europe trace their ancestry to not only include various strands of the Flavian line, but also various strands of the Herodian line. These Old Roman noble families ascended to positions of nobility in feudal Europe, vying for control of the remnants of the Western Roman Empire, often laying claim to the title of Roman Emperor. The Roman power had largely devolved upon the Roman Bishoprick, what we nowadays call the Vatican or the Papacy, who by controlling the religion of the people of Europe was able to exert powerful influence upon the various monarchies, duchies, and principalities that had arisen as Imperial Rome had collapsed in the West. Papal blessing, or Papal censure, often meant success or defeat for any of the aristocratic fiefdoms and the families who controlled them. It becomes obvious then that whoever controlled Papal Rome could control much if not most or even all of Europe. And sure enough, a careful look into the history of "Who controls the Vatican" reveals these Flavian-Herodian "Old Roman Nobility" aristocratic family dynasties did in fact wind up becoming the power-brokers of the Roman Catholic Church. The Vatican is controlled by cardinals and powerful, wealthy bishops, and has been since the days of Charlemagne if not earlier. The cardinals and powerful ruling bishops in the Vatican just so happen to be dominated by the "Old Roman nobility". That is to say, it is an historical fact that the Vatican is and has been controlled for OVER 1000 YEARS by a large but generally unknown group of distantly related families, who all trace their descent from both the Flavian Roman Imperial dynasty AND the Herodian Judean regnal dynasty.

MOREOVER, when tracing the rise of catholicism, one discovers incredible affinities and correlations and links to JUDAISM. For example, the doctrine of the trinity, while being well-known as having numerous counterparts throughout the pagan world, is actually an integral part of Jewish gnostic mysticism (later collected during the medieval period into a collection of teachings known as the Zohar, aka kaballah). Jews picked up trinitarian concepts during their captivity in Babylon, and brought it back with them. This is one of the reasons Jesus was so set against the "traditions of the elders" of Pharisaic Judaism, because it was rife with pagan Babylonian mystical and occultic garbage.

I don't have time to go into it right now, but on the basis of years of research I have conducted (almost fifteen years) into the subject of trinitarianism and the origin and rise of catholicism, I can say without any doubt in my mind whatsoever that Catholicism originated as a gnostic Jewish syncretistic mystery religion operating within both Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, that it is part of the "mystery of iniquity" that Paul warned about, and that it was the apostasy Paul and the other apostles - and even Christ Himself - warned was to arise.

There's nothing new under the sun.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

thank you Esaias, beautifully written!

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

That's what I believed when I was Historic (not historicist) Post trib.

Easias were you at the Prophecy conference in Georgia with Brothers Kirkland, Brigmond, Dalton, and myself?

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....4,203,200_.jpg

:couch

:heeheehee

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

BAM! BINGO!

I think that tells us who Babylon in Revelation is. Israel's orthodox Jews stand on the BABYLONIAN Talmud to this day!

BUt consider this:

Why can't they be the daughters of the single kingdom ISRAEL before they split?

But here's a thought....
(I posted this elsewhere this morning on the forum)

Some claim Jerusalem is the whore as well as Rome in Revelation, and somehow became one.

Jerusalem is clearly the city that is called Sodom and Egypt. And Rome is said to be Babylon.

Bit think of the common denominator in Sodom, Egypt and Babylon. God's People had to LEAVE ALL THREE. If this is Jerusalem who is all three, then the picture shows God's people BECOMING THAT FROM WHICH THEY ONCE HAD TO FLEE! And is that not exactly the picture?

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Nice preterist archive.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

1 Peter 5:13 has the Apostle Peter sending greetings from his location. Which was Jerusalem. Peter calls the Church there the church in Babylon. Peter was NEVER in Rome. We have not one shred of evidence for Peter being in Rome. Who is buried in the Basilica? They also have John the Baptists head in two different places, one is his head when he was older, and the other when he was younger.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Dear Brother Sean, please don't post one line attacks in this thread. I am enjoying and learning from the comments of Elders Benincasa, Blume, and Esaias.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified....

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.




Now for Babylon.....


21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee


God completely obliterated Jerusalem after it's inhabitants remaining, gave glory to Him?


Nope.:nod

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Okay Amanah. I will let you preterists enjoy yourselves the rest of the way unopposed.

Re: Rome is Babylon
 

Thank you