Rome is Babylon

[Amanah]

Rome was the great persecutor of Christians at the time that John was exiled to Patmos. Rome was the 4th beast of Daniel. Judeans were subjects of the Roman empire and could not take a life without the consent of Rome (reference Jesus trial and crucifixion). Many Judean religious leaders where the spiritual whores of Rome, but Jerusalem was not the Beast.

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Patmos (Rev 1:9) is a tiny, volcanic island in the Aegean Sea, 40 miles (64 km) off the coast of Asia Minor. The Roman Empire sent its political prisoners there to live in exile.

John's confinement there shows that he is a partner with the churches' tribulation and patient endurance

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Rome is Babylon

There are two cities in Revelation: Jerusalem and Rome.

Revelation 11:7-10 Sodom/Egypt is Jerusalem.

Revelation 17:1-18 Babylon is Rome because it has 10 horns, just as the 4th Kingdom (Rome) in Daniel 7:15-28

Revelation 14:8 Babylon previously had conquered Judah. In John's day, Rome was the nation with “dominion over the kings of the earth” (Revelation 17:18) that oppressed Christ's people (17:6)

Don't forget that Nero martyred many Christians in Rome, including Peter and Paul.

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The Christian persecutions under Nero (after the fire of Rome):
Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

Complete Works of Tacitus. Tacitus. Alfred John Church. William Jackson Brodribb. Sara Bryant. edited for Perseus. New York. : Random House, Inc. Random House, Inc. reprinted 1942.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3Achapter%3D44

Tacitus, Tertullian, Eusebius and other sources document the persecutions of Christians under Rome.

Island of Patmos
John is considered to be exiled to Patmos, undergoing a time of persecution under the Roman rule of Domitian. Revelation 1:9 states: "I, John, both your brother and companion in tribulation ... was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Adela Yarbro Collins, a biblical scholar at Yale Divinity School, writes:
Early tradition says that John was banished to Patmos by the Roman authorities. This tradition is credible because banishment was a common punishment used during the Imperial period for a number of offenses. Among such offenses were the practices of magic and astrology. Prophecy was viewed by the Romans as belonging to the same category, whether Pagan, Jewish, or Christian. Prophecy with political implications, like that expressed by John in the book of Revelation, would have been perceived as a threat to Roman political power and order. Three of the islands in the Sporades were places where political offenders were banished. (Pliny, Natural History 4.69–70; Tacitus, Annals 4.30)[14]

John was allegedly banished by the Roman authorities to the Greek island of Patmos, where, according to tradition, he wrote the Book of Revelation. According to Tertullian (in The Prescription of Heretics) John was banished (presumably to Patmos) after being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it. It is said that all in the audience of Colosseum were converted to Christianity upon witnessing this miracle. This event would have occurred in the late 1st..century, during the reign of the Emperor Domitian, who was known for his persecution of Christians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos

[Amanah]

Please don't butcher this thread with 5000 one liners, I would like a serious discussion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The book of Revelation is being written to Diaspora Judeans who were currently throughout the known world. This was a Roman world. Yet, the only Bible they had was the OT, not a New Testament. Mystery Babylon, the Great, the Mother of all Harlots is referring to the only harlot in the OT. That was the wife of God who who He divorces in Jeremiah 3:8.

"I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery."

The prophet refers to both kingdoms within this divorce, both are called harlots in Jeremiah 3:9. In Ezekiel 23:3-21 the accusation of harlot is leveled against Israel. In Hosea 2:2 we are shown that Israel is indeed the Harlot, the entire book of Hosea solidifies that. Jesus just reminds the religious Judeans of this accusation in Matthew 21:43 He tells them that their kingdom will be taken from them and given to another nation (the Church) which will produce good fruit. Unlike they who had been a bad tree and produced bad fruit. The Harlot is adorned in scarlet and purple which we find Numbers 4:8, Numbers 4:8, she is arrayed in gold Exodus 25:38-39. She rides the beast which is ROME. The vehicle which she would use to kill her husband,John 19:15. Jesus is standing to be executed, Pilate the Roman official asks the question, shall I crucify your King? They answer back from Judean leadership, is WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR. Israel rejected God before when she wanted a king like all the other Gentiles 1 Samuel 8:20. Samuel wept, but God told him that it wasn't Samuel's leadership which was being rejected but God's authority which was being rejected 1 Samuel 8:1-22.

In John 19:15 Judea seals her fate, her capital Jerusalem the city of the great king had rejected her rightful husband for the last time.

Matthew 27:25 the Judean leadership take the blood guiltiness from Pilate and place it upon themselves and upon their generation. Yet, Acts 2;38-39 was the only antidote for their self pronounced curse. This promise is to you, and to your generations, and even to the Gentiles--all who have been called by the Lord our God.

A Roman Mystery Babylon has the problem that she was once married or in covenant relationship with God. That teaching has to have the Body of Christ, the Church as a whole becoming apostate totally. Hence the doctrine which the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses and some Pentecostal groups use to build on their New Light teachings of a Church Restored. The Bride of Christ became a whore, and these groups are the light now restored. Starting with Martin Luther, all the way down to William Branham, or some other preacher of new light.

I just hope your thread isn't trashed up by Sean.

[Sean]

Amanah, you are right about the Rome/Babylon connection. The book of Rev. defines 2 cities as Jerusalem/Sodom and Rome/Babylon. The Roman govt. was the head of the persection of the saints for hundreds of years, and culminated in the mass deception of the church via Constantine in the 4th century AD. Rome today is a stench to God and "represents" the church to an unbelieving world.

Good post Amanah.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Amanah, you are right about the Rome/Babylon connection. The book of Rev. defines 2 cities as Jerusalem/Sodom and Rome/Babylon. The Roman govt. was the head of the persection of the saints for hundreds of years, and culminated in the mass deception of the church via Constantine in the 4th century AD. Rome today is a stench to God and "represents" the church to an unbelieving world.

Good post Amanah.

You are partially right.

The book of Revelation is about two cities, and even calls them by name.
(old) Jerusalem and New Jerusalem.

Anything else is speculation and actually unscriptural.

[mfblume]

I've mentioned this to Amanah before, but for everyone;s consideration...

Babylon was said to be filled with all blood shed on the earth in Revelation.

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Jesus distinctly said that was the case with Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:34-36 KJV Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


There is no reason to say Rome and Jerusalem somehow become one entity. The judgments meted out in Revelation are four sets of sevenfold judgments. And Mosaic Law stated there were four sets of sevenfold judgments to those who BREAK God's LAW. And law is only written to those under the law.... not to entities like Rome.

Leviticus 26:18 KJV And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Leviticus 26:21 KJV And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

Leviticus 26:24 KJV Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

Leviticus 26:28 KJV Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.


Also, the BEAST is Rome. And the whore rides the beast, but Rome is not riding Rome.

Revelation 17:4-7 KJV And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: (5) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (6) And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (7) And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The beast Rome carries the whore, Jerusalem. The wealth the whore has is from God as his bride:

Ezekiel 16:10-13 KJV I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. (11) I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. (12) And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. (13) Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 3:3 KJV Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.


The voice of bride and bridegroom in her indicate HER MARRIAGE to the Lord. Rome was never married to the Lord.

Jeremiah 7:34 KJV Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.



Kings of earth committed fornication with her, meaning she was a wife as Jerusalem was...

Revelation 18:9 KJV And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,


Ezekiel 16:28-29 KJV Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. (29) Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Ezekiel 16:38 KJV And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

Ezekiel 16:32 KJV But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!


Ezek 16 is all about Jerusalem alone.




Kings of the earth together with Jerusalem:

Acts 4:26-27 KJV The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Kings of earth are rulers of earth. Rome was Herod, Pilate and the gentiles. TOGETHER with Israel. Adultery. Rome cannot commit adultery with itself.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Excellent Brother Blume

[Evang.Benincasa]

The whole idea of the Rome riding Rome is the misunderstanding that 7 mountains are seven hills of the Vatican. Roman Catholic Mystery Babylon is a bit sketchy. Rome had two sections to her empire. A Western and an Eastern, this division continued into her Roman churches, which you had an Eastern and Western Roman church. We aren't shown two harlots, unless you look at Israel and her sister Judah, which are called harlots by your Bible. Trying to fit Rome into Mystery Babylon gets a bit interesting because we have no way of proving it's the Eastern and Western Church with a Bible. Where did Jesus warn us that His bride would become a whore? A great falling away, and those who were antichrists who left because they were NEVER part of the church weren't called harlots. The great falling away happens during the first century A.D. For the logical reason that it would have to be the very first apostasy to pop up within their time. That was Judaizers, not a Roman Catholic papacy. Or even a teaching of a Trinity, changing of water baptism, or Joe Smith dropping LSD in the Sacred Grove in Palmyra New York. It was Judaizers who were teaching new Gentile converts that they were to be baptized In Jesus name, filled with the Holy Ghost, plus being circumcised, keep the law of Moses, and go sacrifice at the temple.

Nothing about a Roman papacy

[Evang.Benincasa]

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Trying to say that the Roman Catholic church is the great persecutor in the 4th century is total missing what the Apostle said was the chief persecutor.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Matthew 23:32

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

That is what was in her cup, all the blood which was shed upon the earth.

Jesus told us who exactly were those who did this, it wasn't sometime in the 4th century. Because Jesus tells us what generation it was, That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. That's pretty plain, Jesus is telling us who Mystery Babylon is, and when she was living.