I'm leaving the principles of the doctrine...!
 

I’m Leaving the Principles of the doctrine…

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.” Hebrews 6:1-3

In reviewing the threads and associated responses to those thread here at AFF, I have an unease feeling in my spirit and heart. The genesis of the uneasiness is the style, tone and confrontational nature of the threads, and especially the snide and accusing responses of Apostolic brothers and sisters.

Have we, as an Apostolic movement, decided to admire, decorate and continuously trim The Foundation of our beliefs while willfully refusing to advance the House of God on to perfection?

I will not make one caveat here concerning my Apostolic heritage and beliefs…there is no need…it is a critical, even desperate time for us…not because of any single issue…not because of our stand on any given evangelistic tool, program or method, and not because of our individual theological position on the precise definitions of the Godhead. We, as a movement, must “leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ,” refuse to be caught up in a discussion with “Sanballat and Tobiah” on the merits or lack of merits of “building the wall!”

The Foundation is essential and it must be sure, solid and firmly anchored on the Rock, Christ Jesus. But, if we continue to insist on refining, massaging and admiring the true foundation, when will we truly do the will of God...which is to “go on unto perfection,” building a wonderful, glorious and inviting House of God to His glory and honor? We may enjoy the foundation’s purity, its immovability and its eternal consistency, but the purpose of The Foundation is not, and has never been, to be an end unto itself. Any builder who completes a successful foundation clearly realizes that he has only begun a good work. With the foundation in place, there is still much to be done in order to achieve a building or structure that is functional, safe and welcoming to its occupants or guests.

We cannot afford to continue this addiction and compulsive focus on The wonderful Foundation of Jesus Christ or issues not directly relevant to continuing the "Building." Can we not find the motivation, even inspiration, in Scripture to continue the building process and thereby do the good and acceptable and perfect will of God? There is a “plum line” available to us in the example and ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ...a solid Cornerstone! Let’s take that plum line, measure straight lines, in light of His Word, and continue the process for which He has called us all.

As for me, I can’t take part in any more academic and often futile discussions of the doctrines of repentance, faith, baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. There is a greater Cause; there is a more perfect goal and there is a Call unto perfection…and make no mistake, this call is not to holy perfection…this is a God-mandated call to fulfilling His perfect Will in all our lives…

Earnestly, prayfully and sincerely, I say,


…and if we can pull ourselves up above the level of The Foundation and see the Heights and Glory of His House!
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RevBuddy, I understand, and can appreciate what you're saying here. But you must remember....this is just a discussion board, and all kinds of people congregate here. There are many, many Apostolics who are well past the foundation stage.

Revbuddy... i do think the Foundations are understood by most here.. the rest is just wall decorations...

Rev,

The foundation isn't agreed upon by 100% of the members of this forum. That's why there is continuous discussion about the principles of our faith. But we can go on and discuss the other things that weigh on your heart. Why don't you start a thread on being led of the Spirit, or how to be like Christ, or the fruit of the Spirit vs the works of the flesh, or the body of Christ, or whatever you believe the deeper things of God consist of.

Once the foundation is laid...what next...please don't leave but exhort us to press forward. You can change what you don't like on this site but not by leaving. What have you to say about the verses below?


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

There really is a need to go on unto perfection. I have seen the same trend... Stick with the foundational issues and say nary a word about the goal of perfection. RevBuddy, you're a man after my own heart. :) We've encompassed this mountain long enough. Let's go to CANAAN!

Mizpeh,

Please don't misunderstand...I'm not threatening to literally leave the forum. I'm just purposing in my heart not to continue to participate in discussions that are non-productive or counter-productive to building His House.

My commitment is to follow the admonition of the Apostle Paul, to leave the basics and go forward to the advanced calling of God for the Church.

By the way, it's also a shame we're not in agreement on The Foundation...seeing it's an Apostolic forum...very interesting.

Your scriptural references are very appicable and address exactly the correct mindset and spirit needed to accomplish the will of God for His kingdom on earth.

My question is more philosphical than real, when I ask, "When can we get on with the Kingdom?"

mfblume,

Thanks for your comments...

Perhaps it's idealistic, but I am convinced that Soul-focused people, one-by-one, will be the significant contributors to His kingdom. Israel's wilderness experience could be described as "dead men walking." God help us not to view the wilderness as the "norm," but rather, remember and focus on the Land of Promise already given by God!

Now, mfblume, I haven't confused you with Sign On, the dotted lion, have I?

I do not think that anything foundational is agreed on 100% regardless of the forum... There is truth and un-truths...

I understand your point... but I don't think that this forum will come to that...

Discussion and difference is the building blocks of this forum...There are some here I completely agree with and others I don't...

Your choice to participate or not is yours and I respect that..

My choice is if I see error or something I disagree with i will communicate it because there could be a possibility I could be wrong and learn something...

RevRandy,

I never really considered THAT...being wrong, I mean. ...:hmmm I've never experienced that

:D Obviosly your not married....

Guys ... RevBuddy isn't focusing on our interpretations of doctrine but forgetting who we are and who He is. Jesus is the FOUNDATION.

I hope you are going to do more than ask good questions, but that's a start.

Perhaps you could give us insight on how we attain Christian maturity.

Amen. That really is the focus of my ministry, as I have seen the same need in church life. Speaking of idealism, I do not think it is. Hebrews sharply rebuked the people for doubting they could enter this place of "rest", and said they had "evil hearts" in daring to say they could not really get there. Many think it is a slight and casual passing off of something when they doubt, and when they say things like, "Well, I do not have faith for that today. Maybe tomorrow." But God sees it as a blatant evil heart of unbelief! So it cannot be an ideal, really. God was angry in his wrath with those who refused to enter Canaan, due to the giants of the land and the great cities, just as we can easily look at perfection as something too unattainable to consider seeking. I am relfecting on no one here, but just showing what Hebrews said about the issue. What should that make us think about the issue of perfection? It's something we should never fool with.

HAHAHAHA. I like that one!

Now, THIS is getting somewhere. Someone is pulling out my candystick! :)

I am not RevBuddy, but the issues of walking after the Spirit and realizing the truths of the book of Hebrews is the answer, M.

:killinme :killinme :killinme

16 Years+++ :hypercoffee

Mizpeh,

Achieving mature christianity...now that's a real subject!

But you use the wrong verb, "attaining." That won't happen...at least not in this life...pilgrims and strangers don't attain, we just pass through...

Striving for the perfection of Christ or reaching out to do His perfect will...yes, that's something we all can do. A successful Christian's life is one of striving and reaching...striving and reaching...in a sincere effort to accomplish the will and spirit of His commandments...first, in my life...I'll say that again, FIRST, in MY life...then to influence, (not demand, ridicule, deride or general stress out) others to follow a similar path in harmony with His Word.

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Given this principle of prayer, why not manifest that same spirit in maturing your life for Christ or influencing others for Him? If effectual (purposeful) fervent prayer accomplishes (avails) significantly better results. Then why not focus our efforts on accomplishing the same results through SOUL-focused ministry.

I enjoy Bible teaching and through it I hope to influence the Church and beyond...not by my great knowledge, but through the effort of transforming difficult and complicated principles and truths into real-world, everyday words that will assist in maturing Christians and drawing others to Him.

Well its of course the goal to go on to perfection. And Im sure many actually believe they are on the true foundation. From my observation I feel the foundation among Apostolics is very much flawed.

I agree with the Godhead and doctrines of baptisms. However the end time doctrine of resurrection is seriously off. Not just "when is the rapture" but the nature of resurrection/immortality itself. Also the doctrine of eternal judgement that people who only lived 70 years on this planet will be burned in fire for billions upon billions upon trillions upon trillions of years does not line up.

So I understand the desire to move on but if one tries to push ahead to perfection without having the right foundation he will ultimately add error to error.

It would be great to move on but first things first.

[

We have to part ways on this one, bro. lol. I believe we CAN have it in this life. In fact, Spiritual Maturity is the entire purpose for this life.

I agree here...Spiritual Maturity is not perfection it is growing in the Spirit..

Perfection is something we will strive for and yet never attain... because humanity and perfection are less than perfect for each other..

Mfblume,

Oh well, it was good while it lasted...

...but I thought the subject was attaining a final level of spiritual maturity...I understand maturing in the Lord...that process should take place every day, but to attain the maturity of perfection, a final place of maturity here, I just don't think so...

I think we are all saying the same thing... just in different ways...:hypercoffee

This is indeed a whole issue in itself. But walking after the Spirit is spiritual maturity, and when we do so, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I do not think the bible dnagles carrots on sticks in front of us, that we can never attain.

Bro., we're dead to sin. If we knew Romans 6 through 8's message, and how that means we should not live any longer to the lusts of the flesh, we would have total victory.

I think the variation on beliefs in this issue circle around whether or not one believes Paul merely spoke of his past in Romans 7 or his then-present condition. Since Romans 7:24-25 shows the remedy to the dillemma of inability to do what one would, it is speaking solely of his past. Paul got over the dillemma of not doing what he would. This point is where many simply disagree.

But that is the reason we are taught to not walk after flesh (humanity) but after the Spirit. Paul was crucified with Christ. Yet Christ lived in Paul. And that gave way to Paul's great success.

And as great as he was ... he had a thorn in his flesh.

This is what I absolutly love about scripture... it does not hide the "thorns"...

Romans 7:17-19 (King James Version)
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

With perfection comes praise... and who gets the Glory?

Paul, I think understood this completely..

Mfblume,

Now you're missing the whole point of the thread...NOT to get trapped in the minutiae...

I believe we agree...you and I are spiritually mature because we are maturing spiritually...how about that?

That did not hinder him from walking after the Spirit, though. Brethren, walking after the Spirit allows one to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. :) THAT is spiritual maturity, or perfection. So long as one walks after the Spirit, one will not sin.

In fact, Dan, that episode of Paul's prayer regarding his thorn was all the more reason he was able to come to a place where he relied upon the Spirit. It was a thorn in his flesh. Paul learned that through weakness of his flesh he is strong in the Spirit. The Spirit of glory rests on those who suffer in the flesh for Christ. Hence, 2 Cor 4 taught that Paul carried about the dying of Jesus in his body so that he could manifest the life of Jesus in his ministry.

I know it is a side issue, but I LOVE this issue so much and how it gets into practical behaviour in this life. :) But when anyone starts a thread about that, it dies due to lack of involvement. Forgive me for indulging the issue here. Gotta talk about it somewhere! lol

Notice that verse 25 shows the remedy!? " 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." This is why I believe Paul was only speaking of HIS PAST FAILURES, which caused him to analyze the situation and learn what he wrote in chapter 6.

No problem mon...

Paul did not leave the issue as though he had an unanswered question, "Who shall deliver me?" He gave the answer! God. He thanked God who delivers through Jesus Christ. Hence, 6 through 7:4 says we DIED through Christ's death. The remedy! So this shows how Paul came to learn what he did in chapter 6 by the ordeal of his past in 7:19-23. Paul did not have the problem of 7:19-23 when he wrote Romans. It was a recount of his past and how he learned through it of the truth of "deliverance THROUGH CHRIST".

Anyway, sorry for continuing in this vein. I absolutely love this portion of scripture. It's my favourite. :D

Past failures??????

Are you kidding me?? My PAST failures can be just a few minutes ago!!

Not if you're walking in the Spirit ... :hypercoffee

Another thing...we're "looking unto Jesus," not standing beside Him...

Dan gave the answer! :D

We are coming to the fullness of the stature of Christ. :D

We're talking about achieved spiritual maturity...Paul clearly tells us that sometimes were "on game" and sometimes we're not...