Crusades: Are People getting the REAL Holy ghost??????
 

at a recent District event before the sermon, they had a preacher get up to do a holy ghost rally ,or mini Crusade that ended up taking a large part of the service .

Let me say, I want multitudes to get the holy ghost, but I have a serious Issue with some of the things that take place at these . I am asking your opinoins. tell me if I am right or perhaps being too critical.

I was on the platform and saw for myself People raising their hands and CLAIMING THE HOLY GHOST FOR THE PERSONS! aren't we suppose to let the person claim it ??? the Evangelist seemed eager to count yet another one as the numbers went higher and higher which made the crowd more and more excited.

furthermore, I have a problem with people coaxing people into getting the holy ghost. It has been my observation over the years that when people get the holy ghost out of pure inspiration , they don't last. the holy ghost that the saints received under Bro Urshan and even in my father's day, kept them for 50 years. these people getting the holy ghost in these mass services are often never seen again!

your thoughts

Thad, do you know for a fact that everyone who received the HG under Bro Urshan kept it for 50 years? I would venture to guess the church has always had people who get the HG only to never be seen again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thad (Post 249578) at a recent District event before the sermon, they had a preacher get up to do a holy ghost rally ,or mini Crusade that ended up taking a large part of the service .

If I understand you, I think your concern is about a particular style of "evangelism." There is a name for it and someone will remember, but the term slips my mind. This is where the evangelist directly leads the "sinners" through a prayer of repentance - maybe even giving them a few moments to pour out their hearts- and then leads them into praise and encourages them to speak in tongues.

One feature of this style is that you often need a large number of "workers" out among the crowd to help keep individuals focused on prayer, repentance and such. These workers are then instructed (either before hand or right then from the pulpit) to wave their arms when their subject or "sinner" begins to speak in tongues.

The method was said to have first been developed in Thailand and then spread around the globe. The method or style is obviously dependant upon the veracity of those waving their hands. Some spectacular results have been reported over the years but many have been met with skepticism. Personally it's not my place to put people into or to exclude them from the kingdom, so I hesitate to judge. But we do need to always use discernment.

It may be that the meeting where you were on the platform just "didn't go well." I wouldn't know who to blame, God or those in attendance. I try to avoid blaming God because He always wins those arguments. In any case, it could be that the method is sound, but it just didn't come off right that night.

Or it could be that components of the method are flawed or that the whole approach is wrong. I'd have a hard time saying that the whole approach is flawed because if 100,000 are said to have received the Holy Ghost- surely at least hundreds did receive the "authentic gift." So maybe the problem is just with us. Maybe we're not using the gifts and Presence of God in the ways that we should; at least not all the time.

I agree with your statement - "aren't we suppose to let the person claim it ???" There should be some opportunity for the individual to profess their experience; not that they have to pass our judgment; but rather so that they can fulfill the scripture (Luke 12:8-9) and also out of personal respect to the individuals involved. Let them make their own claims of salvation, healing, deliverance or whatever they have experienced.

I think you're right to express some concern. I wasn't there so obviously I'm just taking your word for everything and seeing it from your viewpoint. I didn't notice an overly critical tone in your post, so no harm there. I'd just say chalk this up to experience. If the event had been such, what would you have done to change any of the things that happened? What would the possible outcome of your changes have been? In many ways we're all just feeling around like blind men trying to put a bridle on the Wind.

I feel that folks have to be in a condition to receive the Holy Ghost ,repentance should never be rushed through.
If God does a work in people's lives it will be real.
If someone can talk someone into something someone else can talk them out of it.

I honestly think we are so focused on performance that we preempt God and say someone received the baptism and spoke in tongues when in fact they did not. I also think, for the same reason, that we coax people into speaking in tongues often and they do...speak in tongues. But not genuinely.

I have seen people get in their ears and go "Say Hallelujah, Say halalalalalalalala, that's it just let it out, halalalalalalala, say it" and that person says it. Everyone rejoices and is jumping around and the person that got it looks bewildered and they never come back to our sevice.

I'd rather have someone coming and still seeking than someone that supposedly got it and never comes back thinking it was all hype just like they were told

You know Repentance is not something that takes several hours of snot sniveling prayer. The Methodist gave us that :-).It can be good for someone. And it genuinely happens. But many times a person that decides to come to church to begin with might already be repented. It's a change in attitude. A change in heart. One that says "ok I want to do things His way now"

My impression 10 years ago was that the crusades where an act of desperation for what is not happening at the local church level. I have seen the over zealous claim in smaller meetings. I knew one had missed it once and the supposed HG receiver was in a gay lifestyle not long after, which he was probably headed that way anyway. He never professed to having received the HG. Your concern has been shared by many.
So, for the sake of some success at these meetings, I guess you cut your losses at the potential misses? That is my question.

this topic is just too difficult for me to openly discuss in a public forum.

IMO, the worst of this manifestation of 'strange' in our fellowship is the way youth are TOLD they have received the Holy Ghost. To what ends? For what purpose?

There is no scripture instructing that:
...With stammering lips and a profession from an alter worker shall he speak unto his people saying, this is the refreshing"

thanks Thad for provoking a conversation. Where it goes...I have no idea.

How sad that, in the year 2007, we are still using the word crusade as if it is a good thing.

People the word means the same thing as jihad!


Hello!!!!!

Please tell me what unbeliever would be drawn to any event that has the overarching message of:
1. conquest by armies commissioned by the Catholic church
2. jihad

It is a fascinating thing.
Word choices really do matter.
Why is it that a few dynamic evangelists in the late '80's and early 90's could reinstate this word?

Preacher after preacher will rail against the "Kingdom Now" message but then we slump back into this world conquest tone of the Kingdom of God.

I really don't get it.

But this in NOT THE TOPICAL FOCUS of Thad's thread!! Sorry Thad for any sideways bump.

There is only one kind of Holy Ghost that I know of. :)

I'm not overly critical when it comes to matters such as these. we've had these types of services at my church for years even as recent as this summer and going back several years when BC use to come and hold meetings.
I am only using my own experience as an example when i say this- we had a extended revival back in '99 in which the evangelist said that 500 got the holy ghost. I know that sounds good on paper but in reality, where are these people today??? I don't think any of them stuck around seriously.

now that bothers me. something tells me ...umm i don't know, maybe i am being too critical i don't know but I know when we sought for the holy ghost when i was a child, you stayed at the alter Till you got it and you knew you got it and no one had to tell you.

perhaps these mass events are necessary in foreign countries where there are so many people.

okay Prax, you was at the same event what did you think ?

why would this topic be too diffucult to discuss ??

alter calls and people getting the HG is too diffucult ?

you know thad, I did not think this thread was about alter calls and people GETTING the Holy Ghost.

I thought your own words shared a scene about... "People raising their hands and CLAIMING THE HOLY GHOST FOR THE PERSONS!".

That's what I thought the thread was about.
That kind of insertion by man into the acknowledgment process is just too drenched in carnality for me to openly discuss in a public forum.

but hey, you started the post and then asked me the question I quoted above, so you should know and I should exit.

cya.

It's about HOW these types of Alter calls are conducted and according to the preachers and YES the one claiming they got the holy ghost.

it's about all of it - I just don't understand why we shy away from this topic as a movement. I have brought it up to a number of people and get silence. do we not like to deal with reality ?

It forces us to wade into really dark waters using only conjecture.

We would each have to guess why our fellow altar workers do what they do.

Such actions do not seem to consider the potential for disillusion that can grip the person for years.

A young person or the passionate seeker that has heard so much about the wonder of God filling a person's heart, being left to process the marginal reality they just experienced while supposedly seasoned "spiritual midwives" raise their hands and point to some stammering lips and tear-filled face.

Does the count in the altars come into play; altars that are filled by persons who are exemplifying a preacher's effectiveness?
Does the zeal of the altar worker come into play; that they may proclaim to have assisted in another one being born in the Kingdom?
Do assemblies need a visible confirmation that their attendance, and the event in general, were validated?

See, to me, there are a lot of really dark possible motives, motives that I can never be sure about, so to speculate just opens up space for mostly ugly and not much good.

you bring some excellent points and questions to ponder. I wished we could get more input on it. it's been on my mind a lot lately since this incident.

are they doing this to tout numbers to validate their ministry? if so, at the expense of souls ???

Wait...did this happen at POM? I did not go. But I think it's a bad move to do without first preaching a gospel message. Peter did not move directly to a Holy Ghost crusade when the Jews asked "what does this mean"? He preached a message first.

BTW I really really REALLY think we OVER emphasize receiving the Holy Ghost more than WHY we need what Jesus did for us on the cross...how we are all sinners and not good enough to save our own hides and that we need to really repent and THEN we can receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. I think we too often start off with the blessing of the Holy Ghost and not with the cross, the reason for it and how it fixes the problem

sounds like you've been reading too much T. Fudge , Prax :killinme
just teasing

no NOT at POM!! where did i last see you in person ??

Campmeeting.....lol yes the head count "there's another one with the Holy Ghost? How many is that now? 14? Great...oh there is another one that makes 17 whoooo hooooo"

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight ! lol as i said it all sounds good when you're talking around a fellowship table after church but what's the REALITY of it in real life ??

It seemed inflated. I think Arph felt the same way too

and what i want to know is, WHY are we so slient on this topic ??

I'm not. I have spoken about this before on NFCF too. I have a major problem with it. I was also at Asuza Street Cent and we did it there too. I have no doubt some were genuinely filled and genuinely were baptized because they understood the gospel and wanted to be a Christian. But I think we are too results and performance oriented. Let's remember that it was only ONCE on the day of Pentecost that 3k was added to the church in one shot.

I've wondered too Prax


and the (((((( SILENCE))))) Is defeafening !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know one person that was in the count already had the Holy Ghost, I guess he didn't look apostolic enough, lol.




ARPH :doggyrun

ALTAR..... not alter....please...

John the Baptist's was repentance.

Peter's message was repentance.

Like one preacher said "Most evangelist today have very little repentance in their message".

The Apostolic message without repentance is a NON life changing message.

I see that and absolutely agree with this

Amen!

Been there seen that. I must say that I was young (and not too wise) in the LORD when these(probably the same) people came to our church. The wife took all the kids that wanted the Holy Ghost into an office. I should have gone in with them. I knew that something just wasn't right here but I also knew one of the other ladies that went in there would keep me informed. AND I had other family in the sanctuary. Couldn't be in 2 places at once.

Back in the sanctuary.....my other son "got" the Holy Ghost. I was praying somewhere else when I heard all this commotion. My son came up to me afterwards and told me that he wanted to get baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sins. Who was I to say that he didn't get it. I knew though that his fruit would be what makes it evident. I didn't want to discourage it.

Later, when we got home...Well I must say Praise God that my son who was probably only 8 of 9 at the time had a discerning spirit. He was in the office "trying" to get the Holy Ghost. They told him that he had it. Funny thing was, he never opened his mouth. He was scared to death. When we got home, he told me all about the kids that were told that they got it after just standing there. NOTHING more required.

That was a couple years ago. Yes I do have doubts about my older son that "got" it. But, I'm going to have to trust the LORD and pray that my son breaks thru and lets the Spirit flow.