[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Costeon

What I've done is show that forgiveness and the saving work of the Spirit cannot be separated in time, and therefore, salvation, occurs at a point in time. That point in time is repentant faith, that is, faith that moves someone to repent.

And yet, as I made abundantly clear in Post #190, a refusal to be baptized after someone has "repented" is an indication that they person has not in fact, repented at all, and that, despite any "tongue-speaking" that may have occurred, the person is still guilty of at least one transgression: disobedience to the command by Christ and His Apostles, to be baptized.

1 John 5.6-7 is not obviously about a believer's conversion. The next verse shows that John is referring to "the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son."

The next verse doesn't speak to the entirety of the context. 1 John 5:1-5 begins by speaking of a believer being born of God, and how the children of God can be correctly discerned, by those who keep the commandments, and so, have overcome the world. This is clearly about conversion, about how a person became a believer in Christ, that He was and is the Son of God. Verses 6-11 then speak of the testimony of Christ, to help prove and establish that He really was and is the Son of God, and so, those who have believed in Him, who have been born of God, have put their faith in the right thing.

And we know from an abundance of other verses of Holy Scripture, that water, blood, and Spirit are all linked in baptism.

Ok, so I believe you have now answered my previous question about what you believe regarding when the saving work of the Spirit is received in conversion: It occurs with forgiveness and automatically is received in baptism and is not signified by speaking in tongues.

Since I too believe that the saving work of the Spirit and forgiveness occur at the same time, I would agree with you that it occurs in baptism, if not for one thing: the fact that people constantly receive the gift of the Spirit with the sign of tongues before baptism. However someone understands what the gift of the Spirit with the sign of tongues is (supernatural empowerment or as the birth of the Spirit), all would agree that when someone begins to speak in tongues, new life in the Spirit has either already occurred or is occurring at that moment, which is to say that the regenerating work of the Spirit has occurred before baptism. That people constantly speak in tongues before baptism shows that neither forgiveness nor the birth of the Spirit are effected by baptism.

Again, it would be helpful to not make assumptions about what I believe.