Forgiveness or Remission?

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Whether or not you realize it, you're simply shifting the remission of sins from water baptism, to Spirit baptism.

What I've done is show that forgiveness and the saving work of the Spirit cannot be separated in time, and therefore, salvation, occurs at a point in time. That point in time is repentant faith, that is, faith that moves someone to repent.

You could just as easily argue that remission of sins is only effected by the blood of Jesus, based on Matthew 26:28. But a more holistic approach is best:

1 John 5:6-7 (ESV),

There are three elements, for lack of a better word, that agree, or come together, in the life of a believer:

1.) The Spirit
2.) The Water
3.) The Blood

All three are involved in granting remission of sins.

1 John 5.6-7 is not obviously about a believer's conversion. The next verse shows that John is referring to "the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son."

And there is ample proof of all three of these elements being received in baptism

Ok, so I believe you have now answered my previous question about what you believe regarding when the saving work of the Spirit is received in conversion: It occurs with forgiveness and automatically is received in baptism and is not signified by speaking in tongues.

Since I too believe that the saving work of the Spirit and forgiveness occur at the same time, I would agree with you that it occurs in baptism, if not for one thing: the fact that people constantly receive the gift of the Spirit with the sign of tongues before baptism. However someone understands what the gift of the Spirit with the sign of tongues is (supernatural empowerment or as the birth of the Spirit), all would agree that when someone begins to speak in tongues, new life in the Spirit has either already occurred or is occurring at that moment, which is to say that the regenerating work of the Spirit has occurred before baptism. That people constantly speak in tongues before baptism shows that neither forgiveness nor the birth of the Spirit are effected by baptism.