Joshua: NOT a liar

[donfriesen1]

Joshua proclaims to all Israel that God has faithfully done everything he said he would do (in relation to conquering all of Canaan for the Jews). Yet, even a superficial reading of the Book of Joshua clearly shows areas unconquered. One prominent example is the Jebusite stronghold, which was only conquered much later, by David, then to gain fame as great Zion.

Taking everything Joshua said literally, makes Joshua look like a liar he wasn't.

Instead of calling Joshua a liar, it should be considered that the culture of the Middle East used hyperbole to a large extent. Those today who've lived there say this usage is still common, a feature.

Thus, Joshua's words should be understood in the context of the language usage of that time. Anything else would be inaccurate. No one of that time would have taken his words literally. They would have read between the lines, ignoring a literal interpretation. Joshua was doing his very best speaking (in line with language usage of that day) to magnify (make larger than real) the Lord. Everyone then understood he was not attempting to be literally accurate.

Anyone reading the Bible today should take hyperbole into consideration, to understand the Bible as accurately as possible.

I'm a Canadian. If God would ever speak to my physical ears, my guess is he would use the English of Canada and not an Aussie bent. I might not perceive an Australian version of English. When he spoke to those in Bible lands, did he use the language they understood? If so, did he use the language as they used it, ie. with hyperbole, or was it modified?

[Monterrey]

Joshua spoke truth and God is true. The example you are using, ie deliverance from the inhabitants, was conditional upon the people obeying. Not sure what you are meaning about hyperbole. It kinda appears that you are misunderstanding the context.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Joshua spoke truth and God is true. Nothing I said contradicts these facts, right? The example you are using, ie deliverance from the inhabitants, was conditional upon the people obeying. Agreed. I wrote because the Biblical facts written in Jos seem to contradict themselves. Not sure what you are meaning about hyperbole. I would subscribe to the dictionary definition: noun. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. It kinda appears that you are misunderstanding the context. Maybe not. I was attempting to explain that various passages by the same writer were contradictory and therefore needed an explanation as to why, or Joshua has the appearance of being a liar. I would confront those who say he is and oppose them. Yet still, an explanation is needed why he appears to lie.

Jos23.1,14 Jos speaking: Now it came to pass, a long time after the Lord had given rest to Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua was old, advanced in age. 2 And Joshua called for all Israel, for their elders, for their heads, for their judges, and for their officers, and said to them: “I am old, advanced in age.not one thing has failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spoke concerning you. All have come to pass for you; not one word of them has failed.

Jos21.43 So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

Those verses appear to be contradicted by the following:

Jos13 Now Joshua was old, advanced in years. And the Lord said to him: “You are old, advanced in years, and there remains very much land yet to be possessed. 2 This is the land that yet remains: all the territory of the Philistines and all that of the Geshurites, 3 from Sihor, which is east of Egypt, as far as the border of Ekron northward (which is counted as Canaanite); the five lords of the Philistines—the Gazites, the Ashdodites, the Ashkelonites, the Gittites, and the Ekronites; also the Avites; 4 from the south, all the land of the Canaanites, and Mearah that belongs to the Sidonians as far as Aphek, to the border of the Amorites; 5 the land of the Gebalites, and all Lebanon, toward the sunrise, from Baal Gad below Mount Hermon as far as the entrance to Hamath; 6 all the inhabitants of the mountains from Lebanon as far as the Brook Misrephoth, and all the Sidonians

It looks like Jos has said that God gave them all the land and they possessed it but it also says he has not. Is hyperbole the reason for this contradiction? Maybe.

Would you disagree that the Middle East people are said to speak with hyperbole?

.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Joshua isn't a liar. The issue is the biblical narrative presents a complex fulfillment: Joshua declared God fulfilled His promise by giving Israel all the land Joshua 21:43-45, meaning it was legally theirs and they had rest. However, they didn't fully remove all inhabitants due to their own incomplete obedience and military shortcomings. Therefore leaving some Canaanites in the land, with the understanding that full, continuous possession depended on their ongoing faithfulness. It was all their land, through their disobedience they failed to claim it. Joshua records the tribes, particularly Manasseh, Joshua 17:12-13 and Ephraim, Judges 1:27-28, couldn't fully remove the Canaanites, who remained in their cities, leading to forced labor and covenant compromise. This is the situation Joshua warned them about, emphasizing the need for full conquest and obedience to God's commands to avoid idolatry and sin.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Joshua spoke truth and God is true.

Plz note the title of this thread.

[donfriesen1]

Casual reading of the Book of Joshua may lead some to think that Jos contradicts himself, as demonstrated earlier. None should think so.

Any explanations given as to why are viable, until shown wrong. The Bible does not itself give a reason why.

The fact that those of the Middle East used hyperbole extensively, has not yet been shown to be a fable.

An example: The kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar was said to be over all the earth. No one ever should suggest that it extended anywhere other than just the Middle East. Either people should ignore what the Word plainly says or they should say they believe the writer used hyperbole. All the earth definitely should not be taken literally. Hyperbole is a good explanation of a seeming contradiction.

We have two examples of hyperbole. Are there others? Of course, because the writers used the language styles they grew up in - hyperbole - which exists to this day. God's word faithfully portrayed reality of that day.

[Evang.Benincasa]

You are correct, the Bible uses hyperbole as in all the world or all the earth statements. Yet, in the case of Joshua, God gave them all the land. Joshua affirms that fact. Yet, with a little bit of reading we understand that while the parent may have given their children their house in their will. The children not claiming ownership of the house does not negate the fact the house was legally owned by the children.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Casual reading of the Book of Joshua may lead some to think that Jos contradicts himself, as demonstrated earlier. None should think so.

Any explanations given as to why are viable, until shown wrong. The Bible does not itself give a reason why.

The fact that those of the Middle East used hyperbole extensively, has not yet been shown to be a fable.

An example: The kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar was said to be over all the earth. No one ever should suggest that it extended anywhere other than just the Middle East. Either people should ignore what the Word plainly says or they should say they believe the writer used hyperbole. All the earth definitely should not be taken literally. Hyperbole is a good explanation of a seeming contradiction.

We have two examples of hyperbole. Are there others? Of course, because the writers used the language styles they grew up in - hyperbole - which exists to this day. God's word faithfully portrayed reality of that day.

Hyperbole used today would be “this book weighs a ton” while it obviously doesn’t mean we can lift such a book. It simply means the book is very heavy to the person lifting it. In the Bible when statements are made as “all the earth” or utterly destroyed” it means the known world at their time. Or the extreme amount of devastation.

[Evang.Benincasa]

If anyone were to call Joshua a liar, they would also have to call Solomon a liar. Because in 1 Kings 8:56 Solomon confirms the words of Joshua; "Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant."

[donfriesen1]

Dom, we agree, you and I, that the Book of Jos shows:

1. God promised the Jew Canaan.
2. that the land was legally theirs.
3. They possessed and dwelt in (only part of) the land.
4. Jos said God fulfilled all, everything he had promised. Jos21.43-45
5. But God said they didn't dwell in all the land. Jos13.1-6

4 contradicts 5, apparently.

No one with the ability to read should say there is not an apparent contradiction. The reason I started the thread is to give an explanation why the seeming contradiction should not be seen to be a contradiction.

Anyone saying (correctly) that there are conditions of obedience or a complex fulfillment which prevented the complete fulfillment does not yet smooth over this apparent contradiction.

Saying the hyperbole 'all the earth' is an expression for 'the then known world' ignores the fact that the example in which it was used, the Kingdom of Babylon, did not conquer Greece. This would then indicate that Greece was not part of the world that was known. As such, the putting forward of this as an explanation does not help properly understand hyperbole.

Quoting Joshua 17:12-13 and Judges 1:27-28 and 1 Kings 8:56 (which correctly support what Jos said in Jos21.43-45) does nothing to smooth over the apparent contradiction of 4. contradicting 5. This is not helpful with the apparent contradiction.

This thread's purpose is to explain an apparent contradiction. The use of hyperbole is yet the only explanation put forth to smooth over the apparent contradiction.

Plz, someone, put forward another or explain why hyperbole isn't a viable explanation. Silence, meaning no response, would indicate that the best explanation has been put forward so far. Until then, we are left seeing an apparent contradiction.

I have not yet said Jos is a liar. I don't plan to, either.