Sermon on the mountain

[Amanah]

Does Jesus's teaching of non violence in Matthew condemn the state industrial military complex as unjustified?

Should Christian's be conscientious objectors in unjust wars?

Does pledging allegiance to the Republic and participating in it's advantages obligate one to defend it?

How does a Christian establish the Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven?

When will Jesus kingdom be established? when will the wicked be annihilated?

[coksiw]

You will be surprised of how many opinion you will find here and anywhere about that.

I notice that in the argumentation, you tend to see the following errors:

1) Lack of understanding what "biblical meekness" is. Many people can't define it right.
2) Erroneously generalizing things without comprehending that the elects are always going to be a tiny minority. For example, "if everybody thinks like you, then" to point out the absurdity of a thought. We have a different calling and we will always be a minority.

Even among those that get point 1 and 2 right, you will find a variety of opinions.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

You will be surprised of how many opinion you will find here and anywhere about that.

I notice that in the argumentation, you tend to see the following errors:

1) Lack of understanding what "biblical meekness" is. Many people can't define it right.
2) Erroneously generalizing things without comprehending that the elects are always going to be a tiny minority. For example, "if everybody thinks like you, then" to point out the absurdity of a thought. We have a different calling and we will always be a minority.

Even among those that get point 1 and 2 right, you will find a variety of opinions.

I believe the answer is found in a song long ago, “to be like Jesus....”

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I believe the answer is found in a song long ago, “to be like Jesus....”

Meekness is having the Sword and knowing when and how to use it...remember Jesus driving out the money changers and lifting up His voice to call out sin, injustice and oppression?


Its amazing how we have been effectively spiritually nuetered by being encouraged to adopt this passive compliance to tyranny.


David said,"I look unto the hills whence cometh my help, my help cometh from the Lord"


But is that verse really taking into account the reality of the indwelling Spirit of Christ in the believer?


Look at Christ in all His aspects and personality and not just the submission to His executioners...remember...He laid His life down willingly and took it back up...thats power and extreme self control to bring about the goal of intentional death for a specific purpose....this was not victimhood...this was self sacrifice.


What does your proposed meekness accomplish in its commonly thought of definition other than martrydom which effectively limits the number of Spirit filled people that could be working as His hands and feet?


Sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice?


HIS INTENTIONAL PHYSICAL sacrifice brought life because YOURS could not...wherefore*I used wherefore because I have this fascination with seeing how many times I can get Ndavid to accuse me of bloviating in my posts, you're just collateral damage in this experiement....apologies* do you promote that MY sacrifice, which does NOT bring life, like its to be a desired for virtue?


The Earth groans not for more DEAD sons of God but MANIFESTED sons of God and if I am a co heir with Christ then I am also a son and the son to be the son in not just name only is called to do the works of his Father and apparently those works include occasionally braiding whips and turning over tables and commiting physical violence when appropriate.


Let me ask you this....who best to wield the sword?


A military and government from the kindgom of man that has NOT the spirit of God or a Spirit filled fully submitted to the will of the Father example of Christ?


Why have we delegated that power to others?


We are perfectly fine with delegating and handing that over to they that HEAVILY pervert the course of justice while muttering Romans 13 and turn around and smear someone who should be seen as a brother or sister over the lack of uniformity which is actually setting yourself as the pinnacle example of haviour and denigrating those that dont measure up.


Sometimes the Shepherd needs to tear a lamb out of the jaws of a lion...sometimes you gotta fight a bear...it is the strong desire to right wrongs, while at the same time healing the wounded.


It is a balanced, appropriate and measured response and sometimes the appropriate response is indeed...well...violent.



Hey Ndavid...let me know how my bloviating worked on your end ok?



Here to help buddy! I got lots of time to help a fellow brother out.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Meekness is having the Sword and knowing when and how to use it...remember Jesus driving out the money changers and lifting up His voice to call out sin, injustice and oppression?


Its amazing how we have been effectively spiritually nuetered by being encouraged to adopt this passive compliance to tyranny.


David said,"I look unto the hills whence cometh my help, my help cometh from the Lord"


But is that verse really taking into account the reality of the indwelling Spirit of Christ in the believer?


Look at Christ in all His aspects and personality and not just the submission to His executioners...remember...He laid His life down willingly and took it back up...thats power and extreme self control to bring about the goal of intentional death for a specific purpose....this was not victimhood...this was self sacrifice.


What does your proposed meekness accomplish in its commonly thought of definition other than martrydom which effectively limits the number of Spirit filled people that could be working as His hands and feet?


Sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice?


HIS INTENTIONAL PHYSICAL sacrifice brought life because YOURS could not...wherefore*I used wherefore because I have this fascination with seeing how many times I can get Ndavid to accuse me of bloviating in my posts, you're just collateral damage in this experiement....apologies* do you promote that MY sacrifice, which does NOT bring life, like its to be a desired for virtue?


The Earth groans not for more DEAD sons of God but MANIFESTED sons of God and if I am a co heir with Christ then I am also a son and the son to be the son in not just name only is called to do the works of his Father and apparently those works include occasionally braiding whips and turning over tables and commiting physical violence when appropriate.


Let me ask you this....who best to wield the sword?


A military and government from the kindgom of man that has NOT the spirit of God or a Spirit filled fully submitted to the will of the Father example of Christ?


Why have we delegated that power to others?


We are perfectly fine with delegating and handing that over to they that HEAVILY pervert the course of justice while muttering Romans 13 and turn around and smear someone who should be seen as a brother or sister over the lack of uniformity which is actually setting yourself as the pinnacle example of haviour and denigrating those that dont measure up.


Sometimes the Shepherd needs to tear a lamb out of the jaws of a lion...sometimes you gotta fight a bear...it is the strong desire to right wrongs, while at the same time healing the wounded.


It is a balanced, appropriate and measured response and sometimes the appropriate response is indeed...well...violent.



Hey Ndavid...let me know how my bloviating worked on your end ok?



Here to help buddy! I got lots of time to help a fellow brother out.

Meekness is great strength.

Meekness is having the Sword and knowing when and how to use it...remember Jesus driving out the money changers and lifting up His voice to call out sin, injustice and oppression?


Can you please tell us how Jesus said to use the sword?

Why didn't Jesus use a sword to kill all those that made his house a den of thieves? Wouldn’t of that have been a great time to use the sword?

Its amazing how we have been effectively spiritually nuetered by being encouraged to adopt this passive compliance to tyranny.

It depends on the kingdom your fighting for. If your fighting for an earthly kingdom then your going to fight the way the world fights. On the other hand if your fighting for a spiritual kingdom, your going to fight spiritually.

BTW, your spiritually neutered when you have a spiritual fight and you fight it in a physical way.

T.F. Tenney said a group of Chinese nationals came to America as part of a evangelical mission. They stayed I believe for a week or two, as they were getting ready to go back to China, they were asked a question. What impressed you about America, and they answered like this, “Were surprised how American Christians do so much without God.”

Let me ask you this....who best to wield the sword?


A military and government from the kindgom of man that has NOT the spirit of God or a Spirit filled fully submitted to the will of the Father example of Christ?

Ill answer like this, If the Lord is leading you to wield the sword, then you have to do it. But remember, you cant wield the sword without blood. So, if the Lord is leading you to kill someone, then you have to do what the Lord says.

Like I said, to be like Jesus.

Were going to be led by 2 different things,
1- The Flesh
2- The Spirit

You have to decide which one is leading you, in every area off your life you have to ask yourself a question, is that the flesh or the Spirit. Look at what we have been discussing, Alcohol, Weed, Tattoos can I do any of these??? Is that the flesh or the Spirit?

You say, I’m going to fight against communism, well did you ever think, what if its Gods will this country becomes communist? As you fight against it, your fighting against God! Funny where our treasure is, we say it’s in heaven, yet we worry more about protecting this nation, instead of our spiritual home.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Meekness is great strength.

Meekness is having the Sword and knowing when and how to use it...remember Jesus driving out the money changers and lifting up His voice to call out sin, injustice and oppression?


Can you please tell us how Jesus said to use the sword?

Why didn't Jesus use a sword to kill all those that made his house a den of thieves? Wouldn’t of that have been a great time to use the sword?

Its amazing how we have been effectively spiritually nuetered by being encouraged to adopt this passive compliance to tyranny.

It depends on the kingdom your fighting for. If your fighting for an earthly kingdom then your going to fight the way the world fights. On the other hand if your fighting for a spiritual kingdom, your going to fight spiritually.

BTW, your spiritually neutered when you have a spiritual fight and you fight it in a physical way.

T.F. Tenney said a group of Chinese nationals came to America as part of a evangelical mission. They stayed I believe for a week or two, as they were getting ready to go back to China, they were asked a question. What impressed you about America, and they answered like this, “Were surprised how American Christians do so much without God.”

Let me ask you this....who best to wield the sword?


A military and government from the kindgom of man that has NOT the spirit of God or a Spirit filled fully submitted to the will of the Father example of Christ?

Ill answer like this, If the Lord is leading you to wield the sword, then you have to do it. But remember, you cant wield the sword without blood. So, if the Lord is leading you to kill someone, then you have to do what the Lord says.

Like I said, to be like Jesus.

Were going to be led by 2 different things,
1- The Flesh
2- The Spirit

You have to decide which one is leading you, in every area off your life you have to ask yourself a question, is that the flesh or the Spirit. Look at what we have been discussing, Alcohol, Weed, Tattoos can I do any of these??? Is that the flesh or the Spirit?

You say, I’m going to fight against communism, well did you ever think, what if its Gods will this country becomes communist? As you fight against it, your fighting against God! Funny where our treasure is, we say it’s in heaven, yet we worry more about protecting this nation, instead of our spiritual home.

Im not being told to kill anyone. I have one tatt I dont drink and I dont smoke anything..so it seems you are attempting to paint me into a corner of being labeled "Fruit of the poison tree"



Go google Dietrich Bonhoffer and do some reading about this German theologian who saw the rise of Nazism in his country and ask yourself where God may lead you if you suddenly awoke to the State taking over the churches in Germany and using them to spread Gobbels Propaganda.


When one minister refused to have the gold Nazi Swastika pin placed on his lapel by non other than Adolf Hitler himself, he refused to Hitlers face and told him,"STOP PERSECUTING THE CHURCH" Hiter stormed out in a fury and Gobbels reportedly said,"Thats catholics for you...they think they answer to a higher power than the fatherland"


Bonhoffer was able to leave Germany when the war started to come to America even though he wss drafted into the military by getting a university position in the US and there was much discussion in the churches about their role in the 3rd Reich, sadly many adopted brown uniforms like Himmlers Secret Police Brownshirts and saw Adolf Hitler as a messianic figure that was bringing salvation to Germany.


So this German theologian had to make...God spoke to him to go back to Germany and he became an active part of the underground resistance hiding the persecuted and standing for his faith while others were caught up in the furver and goosestepping in lockstep with the Nazi agenda.


Whats really haunting is the writings of those who turned a blind eye only to realize all too late the horrors they unleashed.


Bonhoffers father was not a theologian but one of the main psychiatrists in Germany..Bonhoffer worked in asylums for the mentally ill and disbled..when the war broke out there was a descion that these "worthless lives" would be done away with and 200,000 mentally disabled and mentally ill men, women and children were euthanized....the people that he cared for and ministered to.


He paid for his ministry with his life after 2 years in Dachu*I think Im remembering it correctly* by torture and hanging.


One of the doctord reported that he had never seen any other person surrender to the will of God so easily.


His writings some of them were smuggled out and as his faith grew in his imprisonment he began to write about Christianity without religion.


As far as killing someone...Im trusting God that if I am submitted to Him and walking in His will I wont have to. Thats a horrible burden to be placed on ones soul...but if you had to stand by and watch others be slaughtered and tortured and do nothing would be even a greater sin.




Peters warning from Jesus to put up his sword because those who live by the sword will die by the sword was not just a pithy proverb....it was Jesus reminding Peter of the Romes no tolerance policy for armed insurrection....it was Gods will that Peter not meet his end that day at the hands of the Romans and Jesus was making sure ole hot head didn't do anything to mess that up

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Does Jesus's teaching of non violence in Matthew condemn the state industrial military complex as unjustified?

Should Christian's be conscientious objectors in unjust wars?

Does pledging allegiance to the Republic and participating in it's advantages obligate one to defend it?

How does a Christian establish the Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven?

When will Jesus kingdom be established? when will the wicked be annihilated?

1. Jesus' teaching regarding nonviolence was in reference to interpersonal honour disputes.and a general non-violent disposition. This attitude is reflected throughout the Old Testament as well (eg Psalm 5:6, Nahum 3:1, etc). Yet the same God ordained war under certain circumstances and ordained military/law enforcement (eg Romans 13) and personal bearing of defensive weapons (eg Luke 22:36). So the instruction to be peaceful and nonviolent is NOT a prohibition against either state or personal use of force under certain conditions. The modern military industrial complex is forbidden under other commands of God, especially those that require just, equitable, honest, and RIGHTEOUS government, and forbids lies, deceit, and cronyism.

2. God's law prohibits following a multitude to do evil, which would include a genuinely unjust war. It also commands that anyone who is afraid is exempt (Deut 20:1-8).

3. Christians should not pledge allegiance to a flag (that is a form of idolatry). Christians should be loyal to their nation but not to the point of sinning. The "pledge of allegiance" was written by a socialist as a means of brainwashing children into supporting an unconstitutional post-Lincoln version of America, it is in fact an act of subversion though everyone thinks it's an act of patriotism. Christians are to pay taxes (and tribute) when they are used to support basic civil functions (including keeping the peace).

4. Only God establishes His kingdom, we submit to it and support it and promote it.

5. His kingdom was established at His first coming and continues through today and into eternity. The wicked will be annihilated at the Judgment Day.

God's kingdom is in conflict with wicked man's kingdom. Christ is in the process of subduing His enemies. The war isn't over yet.

[Esaias]

Note: technically God's kingdom has always been around. But the "arrival" or coming of the kingdom has to do with the manifestation of the kingdom via voluntary submission to God.

[Amanah]

Thanks! I'm reading a book by Tolstoy, "The Kingdom of God Is Within You" and he is making an awesome case for non violent resistance. He inspired Ghandi and Martin Luther King.

I think non violent resistance worked for Ghandi because the British were basically decent people. Whereas, Bonhoeffer abandoned resistance and attempted to assassinate Hitler because Nazism had no respect for life

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Thanks! I'm reading a book by Tolstoy, "The Kingdom of God Is Within You" and he is making an awesome case for non violent resistance. He inspired Ghandi and Martin Luther King.

I think non violent resistance worked for Ghandi because the British were basically decent people. Whereas, Bonhoeffer abandoned resistance and attempted to assassinate Hitler because Nazism had no respect for life

Mahatma Ghandi is one of the patron saints of the non-violent approach.

The prominent race can remain so by preventing the native from arming himself.

Comments on a court case in The Indian Opinion (25 March 1905)

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn.

From a leaflet urging Indians to serve with the British Army in World War I, Part V, Chapter 27, Recruiting Campaign

You may very well have a problem accepting that Ghandi said that. You may then claim that Ghandi wrote this before he committed himself to non-violence. In this you are right in fact, but you must also consider the outcome predicted by Ghandi, the consequences he was willing to accept:

I want you to fight Nazism without arms, or, if I am to retain the military terminology, with non-violent arms. I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions. Let them take possession of your beautiful island, with your many beautiful buildings. You will give all these, but neither your souls, nor your minds. If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourself, man, woman and child, to be slaughtered,

Ghandi is very specific here. He knows the consequences of a non-violent response to a violent aggressor. Choosing the path of non-violence means accepting that you will allow yourself, man, woman and child, to be slaughtered.
...

It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. Violence is any day preferable to impotence.
Non-Violence in Peace and War (1948)

https://yotg.wordpress.com/2013/10/0...n-gun-control/