If there were no heaven....

[OneAccord]

...promised to us in the Bible. If the Bible never mentioned hell. If God never promised walls of Jasper, gates of pearl or a street of Gold. If the Bible never mentioned a lake of fire or "hellfire and damnation". If at the end of this life there was nothing but death. No afterlife. None.

If... Would we still serve God if there was no heaven to gain? Would ywe live like the devil if there was no hell to shun?

Are we following Him for the loaves and fishes He gives? Do we follow Him for His promises, or out of sheer love for His gift of salvation provided for us at Calvary?

Are we just followers of Jesus, or are we really His disciples?

Just musing...

[Apprehended]

If there was no heaven, of course, there would be no hell since the two are in equilibrium to each other.

If there were no heaven:

There would be no God, thus no creator.

If no creator, there would be nothing...not even an earth.

If there were no God, no heaven, no creator, no earth...

there would be no life.

If there was no life, most of you all would miss the re-runs of Sopranos and American Idol. Neither would you learn what the NFL will do with Bret Farve. NOW THAT IS REALLY BAD.

[mfblume]

Sounds like an old Lanny Wolfe song.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

...promised to us in the Bible. If the Bible never mentioned hell. If God never promised walls of Jasper, gates of pearl or a street of Gold. If the Bible never mentioned a lake of fire or "hellfire and damnation". If at the end of this life there was nothing but death. No afterlife. None.

If... Would we still serve God if there was no heaven to gain? Would ywe live like the devil if there was no hell to shun?

Are we following Him for the loaves and fishes He gives? Do we follow Him for His promises, or out of sheer love for His gift of salvation provided for us at Calvary?

Are we just followers of Jesus, or are we really His disciples?

Just musing...

Well, having left the church and opened my mind to all sorts of thoughts, I have had thoughts like these.

Bottom line: I live the way I live because I love the people I am with. I feel I love God, but I am not really sure what that means anyway.

[Digging4Truth]

I cannot say that I would be where I am now because I know that much of the journey God has taken me on was spent living out of fear. So fear helped get me where I am. But I have moved beyond that and the life I live now is because of my relationship with God.

I live what I love and love what I live.

I live things that I don't think send people to hell and, to tell you the truth, I am currently not real sure about our concept of hell.

So... I would live for him like I live for him now. But I don't know if I could have gotten here without beginning in fear and learning to love Him for his wisdom and my love for his excellent ways.

I was thinking along the lines of the question you pose today. I have seen people live and preach standards of modesty and holiness. And then when they got out of a church that preached these things all went out the door.

I have seen people live and preach against the holidays but as soon as they were out of a church that preached it these things went out the door. I think they were convinced that these were their personal convictions but an opportunity to circumvent them proved otherwise.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I cannot say that I would be where I am now because I know that much of the journey God has taken me on was spent living out of fear. So fear helped get me where I am. But I have moved beyond that and the life I live now is because of my relationship with God.

I live what I love and love what I live.

I live things that I don't think send people to hell and, to tell you the truth, I am currently not real sure about our concept of hell.

So... I would live for him like I live for him now. But I don't know if I could have gotten here without beginning in fear and learning to love Him for his wisdom and my love for his excellent ways.

I was thinking along the lines of the question you pose today. I have seen people live and preach standards of modesty and holiness. And then when they got out of a church that preached these things all went out the door.

I have seen people live and preach against the holidays but as soon as they were out of a church that preached it these things went out the door. I think they were convinced that these were their personal convictions but an opportunity to circumvent them proved otherwise.

I would love to think hell as it is taught is just something people thought up.

I loved living the way I did, until one day I realized all the pain and heartache it caused myself, my family and others. I felt that to continue to live that way would be, for me, to live selfishly, knowing that modesty and many of the other things I was taught could be lived better in another way, especially since we were all in agreement in my household. And so, I left to live my life in what I felt was a better, more compassionate way. I am much happier for it. Sometimes, I yearn for the old stuff but the sickness I feel about all the judgmentalism, condemnation and guilt put on people makes me stay here and live free and demonstrate freedom for others who might actually criticize me while I do it. But I feel clean and good before God.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by ILG

I would love to think hell as it is taught is just something people thought up.

I loved living the way I did, until one day I realized all the pain and heartache it caused myself, my family and others. I felt that to continue to live that way would be, for me, to live selfishly, knowing that modesty and many of the other things I was taught could be lived better in another way, especially since we were all in agreement in my household. And so, I left to live my life in what I felt was a better, more compassionate way. I am much happier for it. Sometimes, I yearn for the old stuff but the sickness I feel about all the judgmentalism, condemnation and guilt put on people makes me stay here and live free and demonstrate freedom for others who might actually criticize me while I do it. But I feel clean and good before God.

Indeed. I used to speed and race the engine on my car. And then I discovered a law at work. A law that says these things cost and take from me. Whether in tickets or in repairs or complete replacement of vehicles there is a law that I am fighting against and I always lose.

The same goes for every other law of God. It is no more... do it this way or you'll be punished... but it is an understanding that living one way only continues to bring destruction and loss into my life. Living God's way only brings peace into my life and steers me away from the pitfalls of my fallen nature that only desires to take from me.

As HaShaliach said... Does anyone see the difference.

Yes... there is a vast difference.

He was my judge.

He is now my redeemer.

Not only because he paid the price on calvary. But also because he redeems me from my own fallen state. Thank you Lord for making me free from a self serving and yet self destructive way and teaching me a way higher than I could have known on my own.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Indeed. I used to speed and race the engine on my car. And then I discovered a law at work. A law that says these things cost and take from me. Whether in tickets or in repairs or complete replacement of vehicles there is a law that I am fighting against and I always lose.

The same goes for every other law of God. It is no more... do it this way or you'll be punished... but it is an understanding that living one way only continues to bring destruction and loss into my life. Living God's way only brings peace into my life and steers me away from the pitfalls of my fallen nature that only desires to take from me.

As HaShaliach said... Does anyone see the difference.

Yes... there is a vast difference.

He was my judge.

He is now my redeemer.

.

Very well said, D4T.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I live things that I don't think send people to hell and, to tell you the truth, I am currently not real sure about our concept of hell.

So... I would live for him like I live for him now. But I don't know if I could have gotten here without beginning in fear and learning to love Him for his wisdom and my love for his excellent ways.

I was thinking along the lines of the question you pose today. I have seen people live and preach standards of modesty and holiness. And then when they got out of a church that preached these things all went out the door.

I have seen people live and preach against the holidays but as soon as they were out of a church that preached it these things went out the door. I think they were convinced that these were their personal convictions but an opportunity to circumvent them proved otherwise.

I don't agree with the fire and brimstone concept of hell, and I don't agree with the literal gates of pearl and streets of gold concept of heaven. So I can't think I'd change the way I lived if the promises of heaven and hell didn't exist. I'd be happy living the way I do even if I didn't believe in God, much less heaven and hell.

D4T, there was a time that I preached and lived standards of modesty and holiness. I thought those were absolutely right, and judged others by them. I don't follow some of those outward standards now, but it wasn't because I had the opportunity to circumvent them. I was at the store, and someone from my former church ripped into a clerk. The clerk was near tears; she had only been doing her job. When I stepped up to the counter, she glanced at me and pulled away with fear and hurt in her eyes, thinking I'd have the same nasty attitude that she'd just been subject to and had probably seen many times before.

If what I wear hurts my ability to reach out to people who are lost or hurting, even if it's considered "holy" and "modest" in an ultra-conservative environment, is it pleasing to God? After a lot of prayer, discussion, and study, I decided that in my situation it wasn't.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by missourimary

I don't agree with the fire and brimstone concept of hell, and I don't agree with the literal gates of pearl and streets of gold concept of heaven. So I can't think I'd change the way I lived if the promises of heaven and hell didn't exist. I'd be happy living the way I do even if I didn't believe in God, much less heaven and hell.

D4T, there was a time that I preached and lived standards of modesty and holiness. I thought those were absolutely right, and judged others by them. I don't follow some of those outward standards now, but it wasn't because I had the opportunity to circumvent them. I was at the store, and someone from my former church ripped into a clerk. The clerk was near tears; she had only been doing her job. When I stepped up to the counter, she glanced at me and pulled away with fear and hurt in her eyes, thinking I'd have the same nasty attitude that she'd just been subject to and had probably seen many times before.

If what I wear hurts my ability to reach out to people who are lost or hurting, even if it's considered "holy" and "modest" in an ultra-conservative environment, is it pleasing to God? After a lot of prayer, discussion, and study, I decided that in my situation it wasn't.

Great post.

Sometimes I put on Korous Cologne. Do you know why? My wife likes it.
Sometimes I wear certain clothes. Why? Because my wife likes it.
There are certain things I never do... or never say... or never wear... Do you know why? My wife doesn't like it.

I don't live my life by... will she divorce me if I do this or that (Equal to will this send me to hell etc).

I live my life by... I think she would like that.

The same with God. I don't live my life by what will send me to hell or what won't. I live my life by doing what I do and saying what I say with a smile and thinking... I think He would like this. I think He would be pleased with that.

It is such a nicer life isn't it?